May 8, 2025 • 36 mins
In this episode of Queue Points Podcast, hosts DJ Sir Daniel and Jay Ray dive into the captivating world of the Met Gala and Black dandyism in music and fashion. The conversation highlights notable artists and groups such as Prince, The Time, Phyllis Hyman, Janet Jackson, Fishbone, Colonel Abrams, Grace Jones, and even dancehall artists, examining how their styling pushed the boundaries of traditional masculine and feminine expressions. The duo also addresses the complexities around masculinity and anti-intellectualism within the Black community, while celebrating the influential fashion statements of figures like Arsenio Hall. Tune in for a thought-provoking discussion on the intersections of Black culture, music, and style.
Chapters
00:00 Intro Theme
00:16 Introduction and Met Gala Fashion Highlights
01:34 Discussion on Dandy Music Artists
03:36 Prince: The Ultimate Dandy
06:09 Phyllis Hyman: A Dandy Icon
08:03 Janet Jackson's Dandy Influence
10:22 Motown's Dandy Legacy
13:57 Tyler, The Creator: Modern Dandy
15:19 The Pushback Against Dandyism
19:39 Embracing Individuality and Self-Acceptance
21:04 The Influence of Fishbone and Ska Music
22:58 Colonel Abrams and the Dandy Aesthetic
24:04 Exploring Gender and Dandyism
25:42 Grace Jones and Caribbean Influence
26:26 Dancehall Artists and Queer Expression
29:52 Morris Day's Dandyism and Hyper-Masculinity
33:17 Honoring Arsenio Hall's Style Legacy
35:14 Closing Remarks
37:05 Closing Theme
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Greetings and welcome toanother episode of Queue Points Podcast.
I'm DJ Sir Daniel, and my name.
(00:22):
Is J. Ray, sometimes known bymy government as Johnnie Ray Kornegay
III. And Sir Daniel, we. TheMet Gala has taken over the world.
Absolutely. The conversationhas been nonstop. It's been a hot
24 hours. Lots of fashiontakes. Hot fashion takes.
(00:44):
Not so hot fashion takes.
Not so hot fashion takes. Lotsof hits, quite a few misses on the
Runway. Yes. But just. Just,you know, this evening in May that
comes around every year, justgrabs everybody's attention. And
so this theme was super finetailoring black style. And they were
(01:05):
just. They were. Everybody wasinvested in the idea of black dandyism.
What black dandyism is, was.And how it just really set black
people apart. Well, we'vealways been set apart, always. And,
you know, with everything. Andso, of course, Queue Points of. We're
(01:26):
not going to shy away from theconversation. You know how we do.
You know how we give it up. Weabout. We're about to have a. A discussion
regarding what we saw. Butstrictly J. Ray, you have a colleague
that checked it out and gavea. Gave you a great suggestion for.
For this topic, actually.
Absolutely. So was having aconversation with Charles Stephens.
(01:51):
Shout out to Charles. So byday, y' all, I work with CNP, so
I was having a conversationwith Charles, and Charles was like,
there was one group that Idon't feel like was channeled on
the red carpet, and I feellike they are the most dandy music
(02:13):
group. And I was like. And Iwas waiting with bated breath to
see who he was gonna say. Andhe said the time. And I said, yes,
very interesting. And so Ibrought that to Sir Daniel to be
like one. When we think ofdandyism, right. As a aesthetic,
(02:39):
there are some groups thatreally leaned into that aesthetic.
Of course, the time being likeone of them, but wanted to have this
conversation about groups thatjust kind of had that aesthetic.
So we. So you know how we do.On Queue Points, J. Ray and I selected
some groups, some individualsthat we want to bring to the table
(03:04):
of who we claim to be the mostdandy of them all. Dandy music artists.
So, J. Ray, do you want to gofirst? You want to hit me off of
one of your artists or groups?
1 Prince Rogers Nelson, who isone of the most dandy artists to
ever kind of walk the face ofthe earth. So Prince is there as,
(03:28):
like, my number one like, ofartists that I think of and for a
lot of reasons, but coming outof the early 1980s, after the Dirty
Mind. That Prince is a smartone. He knew that he couldn't have
a long career running aroundin speedos and a trench coat.
A trench coat, all right.
(03:48):
You know what I mean? He knewthat wasn't going to be like a thing
that he could do and end up.
It's not sustainable, you knowwhat I'm saying?
It's not sustainable. Youcan't end up on the like pop charts
and like doing this biggersuperstar thing if that's your image.
Right. So what Prince did wastook the idea of the dandy and then
just kind of did like a realfunk, funky Minneapolis version of
(04:11):
whatever that looked like,purpled it up. But you talk about
the tail, the long coats, thehigh waisted pants, the zoot suits.
And when we get into the 90s,he even got the hair, you know what
I'm saying? The high hair andthe, the pompadour and all of that
stuff. So really that for meis like the pinnacle of like a dandy
(04:37):
aesthetic. And he would dressthe women in his groups in that way
as well as some of the othermen in the groups that way as well.
So you would have the blazerswith the, with the shoulder pads
and the big brooches andstuff. So yeah, Prince, absolutely
(04:58):
dandy artist in terms of his aesthetic.
Completely agree. Especiallybecause Prince is an echo of Little
Richard.
Absolutely.
All of those gentlemen thatcame before him, but specifically
Little Richard, who pushed theenvelope very early. It's like, we
can't stop giving that mancredit. Yep, we cannot stop giving
(05:20):
Little Richard credit. So whenI started thinking about music artists
that pushed the dandy envelopeor pushed the dandy agenda, I had
such an epiphany. And when Isaw this person, when I saw her and
(05:41):
she flashed in my brain, I waslike, of course she was a dandy.
J Rey, I'm talking about noneother than the incomparable Phyllis
Hyman.
Oh, hell yeah.
Phyllis Hyman was a statuesquewoman. And when we got to, of course,
when we got to 80s, PhyllisHyman, she was a statuesque woman
(06:02):
and she was a curvy woman.Right? And so, you know, the 80s
came around. Women in theearly 90s, women adorned a lot of
suits, pantsuits, to kind ofput them on the same playing field
as men. And the shoulders gotreally broad. The shoulder PA pads,
(06:23):
I should say got broad and.But Phyllis Hyman would do that.
But maybe she would give you aplunging neckline so you can see,
so you can see those twoperfectly shaped breasts sitting
Right there in the middle. Soyou have no, no confusion that this
is a woman. And then we wouldget a hat. We would get a say something
(06:46):
hat. And so for that, fill thetime. And when you're a woman and
you lean into your height likethat and wear heels with, with you're
a tall woman already and youwear heels with that. But then you
come through with the shoulderpads and everything, you. That's
(07:06):
dandy. That's pushing againstwhat people think you should look
like.
Yep.
And. And now that I'm talkingabout Phyllis Hyman, I also got a
picture in my brain of anotherperson and I'd like to give her a
quick shout out as well.Allison Williams, because they had,
had, they had very similarstyles. Very, you know, the same
(07:27):
prototype. Curvy, statuesquewomen. Draped, tailored but draped
and flowy. Tall, big hats, thewhole nine. So Phyllis Hyman for
sure is my first pick.
Yeah. Yo, so we might as wellstick with the women because this
is probably. We talked aboutthis as we were kind of getting ready
(07:47):
for this. But Janet theJackson totally, you know, so certainly
there was the influence fromJimmy Jam and Terry Lewis. So of
course they come out of thetime, right?
Yes.
So and Jimmy Jam and TerryLewis are still rocking their signature
style today. It is 50 years later.
(08:10):
And they still rocking suitsand fedoras.
Yep, suits and fedoras. Theystill rocking it. And they got Janet
in that dark, those dark,really tailored suits that she was
rocking. So when we look atthose first two videos from the Control
era, Janet was rocking thesports jackets, the high waisted
(08:31):
pants, but they were thesetailored suits and she was performing
in that look. And I had thisvision as we were thinking about
this particular show, whenJimmy Jam and Terry Lewis were inducted
into the Rock and Roll hall ofFame. Right. Janet updated her control
look. Big high hair, bigshoulder pads, but this really sleek
(08:55):
suit. Right. And Janet Jacksonwas just kind of the pinnacle of
like woman dandy look in the80s. And then of course, and you
mentioned this, she continuedit into the rhythm nation because
we absolutely saw it in theall right. Video. We saw it kind
of throughout that run too.
Absolutely. And shout out tothe embellishments of those of those,
(09:20):
those blazers. You know,people don't. Accessories really
do take an outfit up, give itanother dimension. So shout out to
the accessories. You know,Janet famously got known for the
single key earring and therewas a lot of brooches and whatnot.
But anyway, yeah, so shout outto the embellishments and you know,
(09:43):
we Talked about the time, wetalked about Jimmy Jam and Terry
Lewis. So Prince, consummateband geek, right? Consummate band
guy, I'm sure. Had to havebeen influenced by my next pick.
And my next pick, J. Ray, isthe Motown records class of 65.
(10:05):
Okay.
Because I'm talking about theSupremes, the Miracles, the Temptations,
Stevie Wonder, Martha and theVandellas. J Ray, there's a picture
floating around and weprobably could input it into this
clip of them. I guess theywere on one of their well known tours
lined up. So thanks to Ms.Maxine Powell. There's this picture
(10:30):
of them, I guess on a Motownreview where everybody is standing
poised, you know, the ladieshave their, their feet pointed. Everybody
is quaffed and, and everybodyis, you know, fresh pressed. There
isn't a hair out of place. Allof them are wearing suits, but everybody's
(10:53):
outfits are different. Eachgroup looks, you know, is uniform.
I picked them for that, metfor that reason. Because there's
something to be said foruniformity. There's something to
be said when you see a group,a singing group moving in syncopation,
singing in complete harmonyand then their look is pulled together.
(11:16):
That is so powerful and all.And I believe that is part of the
sauce of Motown Records. Theearly Motown Records years. That
had to have been part of thatsauce because it gave them prestige,
it got them indoors, eventhough they were back doors. It got
them in places to performwhere a lot of. If you didn't look
(11:37):
a certain way, you couldn'tperform. And so there has to be something
to. Something said about thatpolish. Yeah, that standard that
they created for the, for thelook, for the presentation of those
groups of that time. And thenyou see, you see record mobiles and
shout out to. And rest inpeace to Andre Harrell. It's the
(12:00):
anniversary of his passing.And Andre Harrell echoed that with
Uptown Records by havingstylists on staff to give people
a certain. But we're not goingto mention what the early stylists
that they had because he wasstyled in a jumpsuit, what if and
sweater for his trial. Butthat's another story.
(12:20):
We'll talk about it.
We'll talk about it. But, butyes. So to know that has been echoed
and passed down. I kind ofmiss that. I do wish we would see
more uniformity with groupstoday. Because nowadays, you know,
are y' all a group or not?
Well, well, that's the thing.Like there, there aren't as many
(12:42):
groups right now. I havegotten turned on. And this probably
will turn into a show. I'vegotten turned on to like three duos
this week. They're all like LAbased, new school, like rap duos.
Very interesting stuff. I dosee them doing a little bit more
of the I'm wearing something alittle different, but it's coordinated
(13:03):
sort of thing. But you'reright in that uniformity and it doesn't
even have to be like the samelook, but that uniformity and style
where it's like a little bitthe same and a little bit different,
makes a huge difference, right?
Absolutely.
So I love that pic, by theway. You know who else came up for
(13:25):
me? And this is actually morecontemporary, but I really do think
he leans into this in his lookand in the clothes he designs and
what he wears. It's Tyler, thecreator. Yeah, Tyler the creator.
Because when we're talkingabout like this idea of dandyism,
right, it's also pushing. It'spushing back, right. Against what
(13:50):
people think we should be. AndTyler does that in his music, but
he also does it in his look.Because even when you're pairing
his flow and his rhymes withthe look that he's presenting, it's
always polished, it's alwaysuniquely him. There's always a pop
of color. That tailoring isreal together and it's always purposeful
(14:15):
in what he wears. And I justreally like that dude and the way
he kind of styles himself as anew school rapper. He has like a.
And not new school. Right.He's been around for almost 20 years
now.
Oh, yeah.
You know what I mean? But hehas like an old. A soul. Much older
than him. You could tell thathe's pulling from references from
(14:37):
many years before he was born.
Absolutely. I dig Tyler a lotas well. And he. Because he's relatively
young, he's younger than us.And it kind of brings up this question
to me, J Ray, and I want toask you, why do you think there is
a segment of black men thatkind of push back on symbols of excellence
(15:06):
and elegance? Like, you know,there's people that push back on,
quote unquote, blackexceptionalism, that black men aren't
interested in going to collegeor pushing back against that. You
know, there's the pushing backwhen it comes to younger men of wearing.
(15:26):
There's a way that they'redressing now very similar to each
other, you know, with the verytight jeans and the, you know, the
Pooh Shiesty masks. And they,you know, of course they're being
lumped into a category. Andthat's another question I have about
what they're being called. Butwhat is this? Why do you think that
(15:48):
there is just a segment ofblack men that are like, nah, I ain't
finna do that. I don't want tobe the. Like this questioning of
masculinity. Is it aquestioning of masculinity of why
people don't want to engageor, you know, be a part of this looking
(16:09):
and appreciation of dandyism?And it's not saying that because
that's not. It's not acriticism. It's just a question.
Because nobody dresses likethat every day. If you were, you
know, if you were walkingaround with bowler hats and canes
and, you know, somebody wouldthink, crazy. But it's just a question.
I have. It seems like this,and it's just not just about the
(16:30):
clothes, but there's thispushback against thinking critically.
There's this pushback ofthought of anything outside of what
they can't. You can't see isjust too abstract for some men to
(16:51):
just capture and grab onto.
Ooh, that's such a heavy and big.
Sorry, guys. Not trying tobring down.
I'm so glad you asked thatquestion. But. So here's how I'm
thinking about this. So I'mthinking about this in a couple of
different ways. So what's beeninteresting around this dialogue
(17:18):
or this conversation around,like, black men in college is. And
I don't have all the numberson this, but. But I've read articles
that said, well, actually, ingeneral, just college is down for
all men. So it's not justblack men. It's like all men. So
black men obviously fall intothat category. I've also been reading
(17:42):
conversations, and I thinkthis gets to your question where
it's like, young men arefinding it challenging to find themselves
in some of these spaces.Right, right. And where I think this
gets to the question thatyou're asking is I feel like we have
(18:08):
boxed masculinity into suchrigid boxes that it's hard for brothers
to be able to be understandthat they can have feelings and experiences
and emotions that look nothinglike what the world shows them. They
(18:33):
have to be. And I think forblack men in particular, it's even
more narrow. Right. And soyou're not just getting it from outside
the community. You're alsogetting it from inside the community,
because there are folks thatare saying, this is who you must
be in order to be a man.Right, right. So I think it's not
(18:59):
necessarily the pushing back.It is. These brothers don't even
realize that it's okay to bedifferent than. Than this dude that
lives next door to you. Youdon't have to dress like him. You
don't have to like what helike. You can like what you like.
So if you want to run aroundand like, have yo. You want to do
(19:21):
more of a suit situation, likeyou smooth like that, that's the
way you want to show up. Cool.Do that, right?
Yeah.
But if you don't feel likethat's something that would be accepted
and you already are kind oflike, I don't know that I'm completely
comfortable in the skin thatI'm in anyway. So you gonna try and
fit in any way that you'retrying to fit in? You know, for me
(19:46):
personally, I didn't know thatit was okay for me to be different
until I got to college andrealized, like, oh, it's totally
okay for me to, like, not belike everybody else. You know what
I mean?
Exactly.
And it probably took meanother 15 years to realize that.
That not being like anybodyelse was my superpower.
(20:07):
Say that, you know, and it'sfunny you bring that up. That was
a great answer, by the way,because there's also a pushback against.
There's this whole rise ofanti intellectualism. That is a whole
nother story. And. But itseems it falls in line with the.
(20:28):
With that. With the wholeconversation, even when we talking
about clothes. But like yousaid there, you found. You found
a place where you couldexpress yourself and feel free to
do so. Well, my next pick, andI might. I'm gonna catch you by surprise
with this one, but an exercisein dandyism. You have to talk about
(20:54):
Fishbone.
Oh, yay. Good choice.
I knew you would like Jack.You have to talk about Fishbone and
the brothers and thesebrothers that have their rightful
place in the punk scene. Butthat punk scene is squarely a branch
(21:14):
of the ska scene.
Yeah.
Ska music. In anotherconversation that we've had, we talk
about how ska, of course, isborn out of the Windrush generation
in England. Right. And that'swhere, you know, a bunch of immigrants
from the West Indies come toEngland and they integrate with the
British population. And thenyou come out with sky. It's reggae,
(21:36):
it's punk, it's all thethings. And that had a look to it.
Yeah.
That had a uniform to it.There was the punk influence. But
if you look at pictures ofFishbone. Fishbone a lot. Especially
the lead singer. Yeah. Wouldhave his tail, his tailored suit,
but. But it would. It would belike a. He Would be wearing knickerbockers.
Yeah.
(21:56):
You know, not short pants for.For those who.
For those who don't know.Yeah. Short diggers. I've also heard
Right.
With a good Doc Martin boot.And, you know, the whole look is
tied together. And thosebrothers weren't afraid of doing
what we were talking about.They weren't afraid of pushing the
envelope, especially when youare at that time a black person playing
(22:22):
what is considered nontraditional black music. But we all.
We all know it's black. It wasblack. That is black music. Okay.
Just want to be sure. Justwant to make sure everybody knows
that's our music. But yes.Fishbone. That's my pick.
Good choice. Okay, so this ismy last choice. I'm so. That's so
cool that you chose Fishbone.One of the folks who I feel like
(22:44):
always, especially in theearly 80s, embodied this idea of
dandyism. Actually, I do havetwo. I have two more. So this one.
Colonel Abrams. Colonel. Doyou. Colonel Abrams. With the big.
With the shoulder pads and.
Colonel Abrams.
Listen, Colonel Abrah. Firstof all, okay, Colonel Abrams was
(23:10):
going to sing you down. Firstof all, his name was Colonel, Okay.
He was gonna. You know what Imean? He was gonna sing you down.
He had the suits, the shoulderpads. He was also statuesque, and
he was gonna, like, shimmythem shoulders, you know what I'm
saying? And just always kindof represented to me this very kind
(23:33):
of sleek. Like, he. He justlooked like this sleek man, masculine
dude. You know what I mean?
Absolutely.
Which is leading me to aquestion, Sir Daniel, actually, because
now that I say that, I amwondering. So it's more of a statement,
(23:53):
and then I'm gonna get you tolet me know what you think. I am
also wondering if the idea ofadopting the dandy aesthetic.
Mm.
Was also a way for brothers tobe able to play with gender because
(24:14):
it was easy to soften thoselooks, but still not be. Still not
be considered, like, queer.You know what I mean? Like, I could
soften it up but still not beconsidered queer. And I'm wondering.
It's almost like a subversiveway of being, like, I know that I
(24:37):
need to play with this. I'mnot so rigid in my masculinity. But
if I adopt this Persona, Icould soften this Persona and still
accomplish my goals. So I'mwondering about that now.
Oh, I swear, it's like you hada camera in my brain. I really do
(24:59):
believe that we were having amind meld, because I was clearly
about to go into thisDirection with you. Okay, so yes
to what you just said. And Ithink it's so ironic and it was so
funny to me because my nextpick is two picks and they both kind
(25:21):
of. They're related becauseboth is Caribbean influence. But
Grace Jones, yes, it was aclear gen. There's no other way to
put it but calling her agender. She pushed beyond androgyny.
She wore a suit like nobodyelse and did it to perfection. Right.
(25:44):
So she's on my list of likesuper dandies from back in the day.
Right. But then we also talk.We also get this question about queer
expression because dandyism,we can't get away around it. Dandies.
There is, there's a touch,there's a bit of queerness in there.
Absolutely.
There's a lot of queerness inthere. And so my final pick for dandy
(26:09):
music artists are all the 90sdance hall artists that came out.
All of them, Every last one.And I'll tell you why. As somebody
that grew up in Brooklyn, NewYork, it was always so fun and just
nonsense at the same time tosee how specifically Jamaican men
(26:36):
and Jamaican dance hallartists would present themselves
in these very ornate, veryflowy, blousy cut up. There was always
a chiffon moment for thesedancehall artists, for these male
(26:58):
dancehall artists, these verysheer and opaque looks where they
would be. It would be socolorful and so ornate and so flowy
and feminine at the same time.But in the same breath, J Ray, they
are spewing some, at times,some of the most homophobic lyrics
you ever want to hear. And it.And they drove. And the culture itself
(27:22):
was a hotbed for that, forthis underlying bubbling cauldron
of homophobia and. Andanything anti queer. Yes, but you
look queer as fuck you. Imean, if you look at some of the
outfits that Shabba had onNinja man be all of these early,
(27:42):
especially in the late 80s andthe early 90s, they were good for
wearing. There was. They weregood for wearing a see through something.
Yeah, something see through.Even the netted. And if you're. If
you're a West Indian person,you know exactly what I'm talking
about. You had a brother, son,uncle, dad that wore those mesh tank
(28:04):
tops.
Yep.
And then we had these yellow,green, all of that. And then we had
these mesh cut up that diamondcut up shirts and the shred. Oh,
Jay Ray. There was this. Idon't know if it came over to Pennsylvania,
but I know in New York youcould spot a Jamaican a mile away.
(28:24):
A Jamaican man, because he'sgoing to have on the shredded shirt.
Yes.
And it looked like a little.It was. It looked like a little skirt.
A little. A flapper skirt.Yeah, it was a long shirt and it
was cut up, it shredded and itallowed for them to, when they were
dancing, to have this verypeacock looking, peacock way of dressing
(28:47):
and showing off. And it wasjust so funny to me. And that's why
I'm so glad that we had thisconversation. Because when I was
thinking of it, I was likethose dancehall artists, dandy as
hell, queer looking as hell.
Yep.
But got the nerve to behomophobic or to be doing that back
in the day. And it was hot. Itwas accepted. It was just something
(29:07):
that we just accepted fromthem. But my God, they were gonna
have an exposed shoulder, theywere gonna have a puffy shoulder
shoulder moment. And it wassee through. I mean, it was just
the most. And they werecomplete dandies.
So it's interesting that youtalk about the homophobia and the
(29:29):
misogyny. Cause this actuallyleads me. I do wanna end. I know
we kind of started with thetime. I do wanna end with the time.
Right. And I actually wannapull something from this book. So
there is a book, it's calledFeel My Big Guitar, which is about
Prince. Right, of course. Butthey have a chapter, chapter three
(29:51):
in it is titled Zoot Suits andNew Jack Morris Day's Dandyism. And
it's by Karen Turman. I wantto pull a specific section of this
particular chapter because itspeaks to this very thing. So I wanna
(30:14):
bring this kind of into it.
Yes.
So I wanna start. This is page43. As Day mentions in his memoirs,
Prince manifests in Day'scharacter. This is a character from
Graffiti Bridge as anextension of himself. We see Prince
(30:37):
play with the cartoonishexaggerations and hyper masculine
stereotypes in the context ofDay as Prince's alter ego while distancing
himself from the behaviors ofthe film's villain. Despite the deconstruction
of gender expression exhibitedin the dandy figure, Morris D. Day's
(30:58):
character exemplifies theinherent complexity in the dandy's
ostensible appropriation ofaspects of traditional feminine appearance
while exhibiting hypermasculine behavior. This caricature
of the. This caricature of thedandified figure ultimately allowed
(31:19):
Day to steal the spotlight asthe outrageously entertaining, yet
misogynist villain in bothfilms. So he's talking about Purple
Rain and in Graffiti Bridge,right? Absolutely. So once again,
it was very clear and it.Later on in the book, it talks about
(31:40):
the fact The Times generaluniform is mostly aligned with the
zoot suit aesthetic. The zootsuit exemplifies radical dandyism,
especially in its originswearer's sociocultural implications
and the various interplicationand interpretations of its semiotics.
So it's talking about the factthat, listen, Morris Day as a character.
(32:05):
Not Morris Day the man, butMorris Day as a character. And this
dandy aesthetic that Morrisexhibited was also coupled with hyper
masculinity, misogyny, whichwe've talked about in Purple Rain.
We talk about that scene inPurple Rain all the time. Y' all
(32:26):
know what scene we talking about?
The dumpster.
Yes, the dumpster scene.Right. So it's always the interplay
of the masculine and thefeminine that's happening with. So
you're right. With theseaesthetics. It's in there. I don't
know if them brothers knew it,but we saw it. We saw what was happening.
(32:50):
You know what I mean? It waslike. We see what y' all doing, though.
You know, as we wrap up. Firstof all, this was a dope conversation
as usual. But as we wrap up, Iwant to give a honorable mention
and a shout out to one. Toanother figure that fits into this
(33:10):
black dandyism. But just afigure of, you know, of manhood and
style. Right. We gotta give itup to Arsenio Hall.
Yo, it's so funny that youmention him. I thought about him
and I was.
Like, ooh, yes, not amusician, but completely musician
adjacent. That man opened hisearwaves, his stage to so many black
(33:33):
performers, especially hip hopperformers, and gave them a platform
and all while making thedouble breasted suit popular. I mean,
the colors, the, the, the. Theshoulders. We can't get away from
the shoulders. But yes, hewas. He did not mind. I would love.
(33:54):
I want somebody should puttogether a picture book of Arsenio
Hall's looks.
Yeah.
During the duration of thatshow. Because he was well outfitted
in the run of the Arsenio hallshow. And I don't think anybody's
ever given it up to him forhis sense of style and for his. For
being suited and booted onprimetime television and network
(34:19):
television at that. So, yes, Ijust wanted to give a shout out to
Arsenio hall and to all thesesymbols of, you know, black manhood
on a spectrum. Jay Ray, Ithink we just can't. There's nothing
black and white about who weare and then who we are as men or
(34:39):
and, you know, maleidentifying people. It's just not
black and white. We. There isjust a spectrum of everything. And
you know it's cool to playwith the colors as we saw at the
Met Gala.
Absolutely. Thank y' all fortuning in. If you can see our faces
and hear our voices, pleasesubscribe. Share the show with your
friends, family, colleagues.If you love Queue Points, chances
(35:01):
are they will also love QueuePoints. Visit our website@qpoints.com
there you can listen to andwatch our entire archive of the many,
many episodes that we havehad. Shop our store@store.qpoints.com
you can keep the lights on andQueue Points Land. We really appreciate
y' all. Also check out ourmagazine, qpoints Magazine, where
(35:24):
you could get some additionalcontent. Oh, and you know what? We
gotta say this so y' all knowwe are live every Thursday, typically
around 8pm Eastern StandardTime. There's always a conversation
to have. So if you want to dipinto our brains, it's different than
this show. So sometimes thetopics overlap, but oftentimes they
(35:45):
don't. So if you want to justhang out with us, have some conversation
and jump in the chat, we arelive on Thursdays. You can find us
on YouTube and pretty much onQueue Points magazine and anywhere
else you can check out podcasts.
Absolutely. Thank you so much,J. Ray. But listen, what do I always
say? In this life, you have achoice. You can either pick up the
(36:06):
needle or you can let therecord play. I am DJ Sir Daniel.
My name is Jay Ray, y' all.
And this is Queue Pointspodcast. Dropping the needle on Black
Music History. We will see youon the next go round. Too sexy. Peace.
Peace, y' all.
Greetings and welcome toanother episode of Queue Points Podcast.
I'm DJ Sir Daniel, and my name.
(00:22):
Is J. Ray, sometimes known bymy government as Johnnie Ray Kornegay
III. And Sir Daniel, we. TheMet Gala has taken over the world.
Absolutely. The conversationhas been nonstop. It's been a hot
24 hours. Lots of fashiontakes. Hot fashion takes.
(00:44):
Not so hot fashion takes.
Not so hot fashion takes. Lotsof hits, quite a few misses on the
Runway. Yes. But just. Just,you know, this evening in May that
comes around every year, justgrabs everybody's attention. And
so this theme was super finetailoring black style. And they were
(01:05):
just. They were. Everybody wasinvested in the idea of black dandyism.
What black dandyism is, was.And how it just really set black
people apart. Well, we'vealways been set apart, always. And,
you know, with everything. Andso, of course, Queue Points of. We're
(01:26):
not going to shy away from theconversation. You know how we do.
You know how we give it up. Weabout. We're about to have a. A discussion
regarding what we saw. Butstrictly J. Ray, you have a colleague
that checked it out and gavea. Gave you a great suggestion for.
For this topic, actually.
Absolutely. So was having aconversation with Charles Stephens.
(01:51):
Shout out to Charles. So byday, y' all, I work with CNP, so
I was having a conversationwith Charles, and Charles was like,
there was one group that Idon't feel like was channeled on
the red carpet, and I feellike they are the most dandy music
(02:13):
group. And I was like. And Iwas waiting with bated breath to
see who he was gonna say. Andhe said the time. And I said, yes,
very interesting. And so Ibrought that to Sir Daniel to be
like one. When we think ofdandyism, right. As a aesthetic,
(02:39):
there are some groups thatreally leaned into that aesthetic.
Of course, the time being likeone of them, but wanted to have this
conversation about groups thatjust kind of had that aesthetic.
So we. So you know how we do.On Queue Points, J. Ray and I selected
some groups, some individualsthat we want to bring to the table
(03:04):
of who we claim to be the mostdandy of them all. Dandy music artists.
So, J. Ray, do you want to gofirst? You want to hit me off of
one of your artists or groups?
1 Prince Rogers Nelson, who isone of the most dandy artists to
ever kind of walk the face ofthe earth. So Prince is there as,
(03:28):
like, my number one like, ofartists that I think of and for a
lot of reasons, but coming outof the early 1980s, after the Dirty
Mind. That Prince is a smartone. He knew that he couldn't have
a long career running aroundin speedos and a trench coat.
A trench coat, all right.
(03:48):
You know what I mean? He knewthat wasn't going to be like a thing
that he could do and end up.
It's not sustainable, you knowwhat I'm saying?
It's not sustainable. Youcan't end up on the like pop charts
and like doing this biggersuperstar thing if that's your image.
Right. So what Prince did wastook the idea of the dandy and then
just kind of did like a realfunk, funky Minneapolis version of
(04:11):
whatever that looked like,purpled it up. But you talk about
the tail, the long coats, thehigh waisted pants, the zoot suits.
And when we get into the 90s,he even got the hair, you know what
I'm saying? The high hair andthe, the pompadour and all of that
stuff. So really that for meis like the pinnacle of like a dandy
(04:37):
aesthetic. And he would dressthe women in his groups in that way
as well as some of the othermen in the groups that way as well.
So you would have the blazerswith the, with the shoulder pads
and the big brooches andstuff. So yeah, Prince, absolutely
(04:58):
dandy artist in terms of his aesthetic.
Completely agree. Especiallybecause Prince is an echo of Little
Richard.
Absolutely.
All of those gentlemen thatcame before him, but specifically
Little Richard, who pushed theenvelope very early. It's like, we
can't stop giving that mancredit. Yep, we cannot stop giving
(05:20):
Little Richard credit. So whenI started thinking about music artists
that pushed the dandy envelopeor pushed the dandy agenda, I had
such an epiphany. And when Isaw this person, when I saw her and
(05:41):
she flashed in my brain, I waslike, of course she was a dandy.
J Rey, I'm talking about noneother than the incomparable Phyllis
Hyman.
Oh, hell yeah.
Phyllis Hyman was a statuesquewoman. And when we got to, of course,
when we got to 80s, PhyllisHyman, she was a statuesque woman
(06:02):
and she was a curvy woman.Right? And so, you know, the 80s
came around. Women in theearly 90s, women adorned a lot of
suits, pantsuits, to kind ofput them on the same playing field
as men. And the shoulders gotreally broad. The shoulder PA pads,
(06:23):
I should say got broad and.But Phyllis Hyman would do that.
But maybe she would give you aplunging neckline so you can see,
so you can see those twoperfectly shaped breasts sitting
Right there in the middle. Soyou have no, no confusion that this
is a woman. And then we wouldget a hat. We would get a say something
(06:46):
hat. And so for that, fill thetime. And when you're a woman and
you lean into your height likethat and wear heels with, with you're
a tall woman already and youwear heels with that. But then you
come through with the shoulderpads and everything, you. That's
(07:06):
dandy. That's pushing againstwhat people think you should look
like.
Yep.
And. And now that I'm talkingabout Phyllis Hyman, I also got a
picture in my brain of anotherperson and I'd like to give her a
quick shout out as well.Allison Williams, because they had,
had, they had very similarstyles. Very, you know, the same
(07:27):
prototype. Curvy, statuesquewomen. Draped, tailored but draped
and flowy. Tall, big hats, thewhole nine. So Phyllis Hyman for
sure is my first pick.
Yeah. Yo, so we might as wellstick with the women because this
is probably. We talked aboutthis as we were kind of getting ready
(07:47):
for this. But Janet theJackson totally, you know, so certainly
there was the influence fromJimmy Jam and Terry Lewis. So of
course they come out of thetime, right?
Yes.
So and Jimmy Jam and TerryLewis are still rocking their signature
style today. It is 50 years later.
(08:10):
And they still rocking suitsand fedoras.
Yep, suits and fedoras. Theystill rocking it. And they got Janet
in that dark, those dark,really tailored suits that she was
rocking. So when we look atthose first two videos from the Control
era, Janet was rocking thesports jackets, the high waisted
(08:31):
pants, but they were thesetailored suits and she was performing
in that look. And I had thisvision as we were thinking about
this particular show, whenJimmy Jam and Terry Lewis were inducted
into the Rock and Roll hall ofFame. Right. Janet updated her control
look. Big high hair, bigshoulder pads, but this really sleek
(08:55):
suit. Right. And Janet Jacksonwas just kind of the pinnacle of
like woman dandy look in the80s. And then of course, and you
mentioned this, she continuedit into the rhythm nation because
we absolutely saw it in theall right. Video. We saw it kind
of throughout that run too.
Absolutely. And shout out tothe embellishments of those of those,
(09:20):
those blazers. You know,people don't. Accessories really
do take an outfit up, give itanother dimension. So shout out to
the accessories. You know,Janet famously got known for the
single key earring and therewas a lot of brooches and whatnot.
But anyway, yeah, so shout outto the embellishments and you know,
(09:43):
we Talked about the time, wetalked about Jimmy Jam and Terry
Lewis. So Prince, consummateband geek, right? Consummate band
guy, I'm sure. Had to havebeen influenced by my next pick.
And my next pick, J. Ray, isthe Motown records class of 65.
(10:05):
Okay.
Because I'm talking about theSupremes, the Miracles, the Temptations,
Stevie Wonder, Martha and theVandellas. J Ray, there's a picture
floating around and weprobably could input it into this
clip of them. I guess theywere on one of their well known tours
lined up. So thanks to Ms.Maxine Powell. There's this picture
(10:30):
of them, I guess on a Motownreview where everybody is standing
poised, you know, the ladieshave their, their feet pointed. Everybody
is quaffed and, and everybodyis, you know, fresh pressed. There
isn't a hair out of place. Allof them are wearing suits, but everybody's
(10:53):
outfits are different. Eachgroup looks, you know, is uniform.
I picked them for that, metfor that reason. Because there's
something to be said foruniformity. There's something to
be said when you see a group,a singing group moving in syncopation,
singing in complete harmonyand then their look is pulled together.
(11:16):
That is so powerful and all.And I believe that is part of the
sauce of Motown Records. Theearly Motown Records years. That
had to have been part of thatsauce because it gave them prestige,
it got them indoors, eventhough they were back doors. It got
them in places to performwhere a lot of. If you didn't look
(11:37):
a certain way, you couldn'tperform. And so there has to be something
to. Something said about thatpolish. Yeah, that standard that
they created for the, for thelook, for the presentation of those
groups of that time. And thenyou see, you see record mobiles and
shout out to. And rest inpeace to Andre Harrell. It's the
(12:00):
anniversary of his passing.And Andre Harrell echoed that with
Uptown Records by havingstylists on staff to give people
a certain. But we're not goingto mention what the early stylists
that they had because he wasstyled in a jumpsuit, what if and
sweater for his trial. Butthat's another story.
(12:20):
We'll talk about it.
We'll talk about it. But, butyes. So to know that has been echoed
and passed down. I kind ofmiss that. I do wish we would see
more uniformity with groupstoday. Because nowadays, you know,
are y' all a group or not?
Well, well, that's the thing.Like there, there aren't as many
(12:42):
groups right now. I havegotten turned on. And this probably
will turn into a show. I'vegotten turned on to like three duos
this week. They're all like LAbased, new school, like rap duos.
Very interesting stuff. I dosee them doing a little bit more
of the I'm wearing something alittle different, but it's coordinated
(13:03):
sort of thing. But you'reright in that uniformity and it doesn't
even have to be like the samelook, but that uniformity and style
where it's like a little bitthe same and a little bit different,
makes a huge difference, right?
Absolutely.
So I love that pic, by theway. You know who else came up for
(13:25):
me? And this is actually morecontemporary, but I really do think
he leans into this in his lookand in the clothes he designs and
what he wears. It's Tyler, thecreator. Yeah, Tyler the creator.
Because when we're talkingabout like this idea of dandyism,
right, it's also pushing. It'spushing back, right. Against what
(13:50):
people think we should be. AndTyler does that in his music, but
he also does it in his look.Because even when you're pairing
his flow and his rhymes withthe look that he's presenting, it's
always polished, it's alwaysuniquely him. There's always a pop
of color. That tailoring isreal together and it's always purposeful
(14:15):
in what he wears. And I justreally like that dude and the way
he kind of styles himself as anew school rapper. He has like a.
And not new school. Right.He's been around for almost 20 years
now.
Oh, yeah.
You know what I mean? But hehas like an old. A soul. Much older
than him. You could tell thathe's pulling from references from
(14:37):
many years before he was born.
Absolutely. I dig Tyler a lotas well. And he. Because he's relatively
young, he's younger than us.And it kind of brings up this question
to me, J Ray, and I want toask you, why do you think there is
a segment of black men thatkind of push back on symbols of excellence
(15:06):
and elegance? Like, you know,there's people that push back on,
quote unquote, blackexceptionalism, that black men aren't
interested in going to collegeor pushing back against that. You
know, there's the pushing backwhen it comes to younger men of wearing.
(15:26):
There's a way that they'redressing now very similar to each
other, you know, with the verytight jeans and the, you know, the
Pooh Shiesty masks. And they,you know, of course they're being
lumped into a category. Andthat's another question I have about
what they're being called. Butwhat is this? Why do you think that
(15:48):
there is just a segment ofblack men that are like, nah, I ain't
finna do that. I don't want tobe the. Like this questioning of
masculinity. Is it aquestioning of masculinity of why
people don't want to engageor, you know, be a part of this looking
(16:09):
and appreciation of dandyism?And it's not saying that because
that's not. It's not acriticism. It's just a question.
Because nobody dresses likethat every day. If you were, you
know, if you were walkingaround with bowler hats and canes
and, you know, somebody wouldthink, crazy. But it's just a question.
I have. It seems like this,and it's just not just about the
(16:30):
clothes, but there's thispushback against thinking critically.
There's this pushback ofthought of anything outside of what
they can't. You can't see isjust too abstract for some men to
(16:51):
just capture and grab onto.
Ooh, that's such a heavy and big.
Sorry, guys. Not trying tobring down.
I'm so glad you asked thatquestion. But. So here's how I'm
thinking about this. So I'mthinking about this in a couple of
different ways. So what's beeninteresting around this dialogue
(17:18):
or this conversation around,like, black men in college is. And
I don't have all the numberson this, but. But I've read articles
that said, well, actually, ingeneral, just college is down for
all men. So it's not justblack men. It's like all men. So
black men obviously fall intothat category. I've also been reading
(17:42):
conversations, and I thinkthis gets to your question where
it's like, young men arefinding it challenging to find themselves
in some of these spaces.Right, right. And where I think this
gets to the question thatyou're asking is I feel like we have
(18:08):
boxed masculinity into suchrigid boxes that it's hard for brothers
to be able to be understandthat they can have feelings and experiences
and emotions that look nothinglike what the world shows them. They
(18:33):
have to be. And I think forblack men in particular, it's even
more narrow. Right. And soyou're not just getting it from outside
the community. You're alsogetting it from inside the community,
because there are folks thatare saying, this is who you must
be in order to be a man.Right, right. So I think it's not
(18:59):
necessarily the pushing back.It is. These brothers don't even
realize that it's okay to bedifferent than. Than this dude that
lives next door to you. Youdon't have to dress like him. You
don't have to like what helike. You can like what you like.
So if you want to run aroundand like, have yo. You want to do
(19:21):
more of a suit situation, likeyou smooth like that, that's the
way you want to show up. Cool.Do that, right?
Yeah.
But if you don't feel likethat's something that would be accepted
and you already are kind oflike, I don't know that I'm completely
comfortable in the skin thatI'm in anyway. So you gonna try and
fit in any way that you'retrying to fit in? You know, for me
(19:46):
personally, I didn't know thatit was okay for me to be different
until I got to college andrealized, like, oh, it's totally
okay for me to, like, not belike everybody else. You know what
I mean?
Exactly.
And it probably took meanother 15 years to realize that.
That not being like anybodyelse was my superpower.
(20:07):
Say that, you know, and it'sfunny you bring that up. That was
a great answer, by the way,because there's also a pushback against.
There's this whole rise ofanti intellectualism. That is a whole
nother story. And. But itseems it falls in line with the.
(20:28):
With that. With the wholeconversation, even when we talking
about clothes. But like yousaid there, you found. You found
a place where you couldexpress yourself and feel free to
do so. Well, my next pick, andI might. I'm gonna catch you by surprise
with this one, but an exercisein dandyism. You have to talk about
(20:54):
Fishbone.
Oh, yay. Good choice.
I knew you would like Jack.You have to talk about Fishbone and
the brothers and thesebrothers that have their rightful
place in the punk scene. Butthat punk scene is squarely a branch
(21:14):
of the ska scene.
Yeah.
Ska music. In anotherconversation that we've had, we talk
about how ska, of course, isborn out of the Windrush generation
in England. Right. And that'swhere, you know, a bunch of immigrants
from the West Indies come toEngland and they integrate with the
British population. And thenyou come out with sky. It's reggae,
(21:36):
it's punk, it's all thethings. And that had a look to it.
Yeah.
That had a uniform to it.There was the punk influence. But
if you look at pictures ofFishbone. Fishbone a lot. Especially
the lead singer. Yeah. Wouldhave his tail, his tailored suit,
but. But it would. It would belike a. He Would be wearing knickerbockers.
Yeah.
(21:56):
You know, not short pants for.For those who.
For those who don't know.Yeah. Short diggers. I've also heard
Right.
With a good Doc Martin boot.And, you know, the whole look is
tied together. And thosebrothers weren't afraid of doing
what we were talking about.They weren't afraid of pushing the
envelope, especially when youare at that time a black person playing
(22:22):
what is considered nontraditional black music. But we all.
We all know it's black. It wasblack. That is black music. Okay.
Just want to be sure. Justwant to make sure everybody knows
that's our music. But yes.Fishbone. That's my pick.
Good choice. Okay, so this ismy last choice. I'm so. That's so
cool that you chose Fishbone.One of the folks who I feel like
(22:44):
always, especially in theearly 80s, embodied this idea of
dandyism. Actually, I do havetwo. I have two more. So this one.
Colonel Abrams. Colonel. Doyou. Colonel Abrams. With the big.
With the shoulder pads and.
Colonel Abrams.
Listen, Colonel Abrah. Firstof all, okay, Colonel Abrams was
(23:10):
going to sing you down. Firstof all, his name was Colonel, Okay.
He was gonna. You know what Imean? He was gonna sing you down.
He had the suits, the shoulderpads. He was also statuesque, and
he was gonna, like, shimmythem shoulders, you know what I'm
saying? And just always kindof represented to me this very kind
(23:33):
of sleek. Like, he. He justlooked like this sleek man, masculine
dude. You know what I mean?
Absolutely.
Which is leading me to aquestion, Sir Daniel, actually, because
now that I say that, I amwondering. So it's more of a statement,
(23:53):
and then I'm gonna get you tolet me know what you think. I am
also wondering if the idea ofadopting the dandy aesthetic.
Mm.
Was also a way for brothers tobe able to play with gender because
(24:14):
it was easy to soften thoselooks, but still not be. Still not
be considered, like, queer.You know what I mean? Like, I could
soften it up but still not beconsidered queer. And I'm wondering.
It's almost like a subversiveway of being, like, I know that I
(24:37):
need to play with this. I'mnot so rigid in my masculinity. But
if I adopt this Persona, Icould soften this Persona and still
accomplish my goals. So I'mwondering about that now.
Oh, I swear, it's like you hada camera in my brain. I really do
(24:59):
believe that we were having amind meld, because I was clearly
about to go into thisDirection with you. Okay, so yes
to what you just said. And Ithink it's so ironic and it was so
funny to me because my nextpick is two picks and they both kind
(25:21):
of. They're related becauseboth is Caribbean influence. But
Grace Jones, yes, it was aclear gen. There's no other way to
put it but calling her agender. She pushed beyond androgyny.
She wore a suit like nobodyelse and did it to perfection. Right.
(25:44):
So she's on my list of likesuper dandies from back in the day.
Right. But then we also talk.We also get this question about queer
expression because dandyism,we can't get away around it. Dandies.
There is, there's a touch,there's a bit of queerness in there.
Absolutely.
There's a lot of queerness inthere. And so my final pick for dandy
(26:09):
music artists are all the 90sdance hall artists that came out.
All of them, Every last one.And I'll tell you why. As somebody
that grew up in Brooklyn, NewYork, it was always so fun and just
nonsense at the same time tosee how specifically Jamaican men
(26:36):
and Jamaican dance hallartists would present themselves
in these very ornate, veryflowy, blousy cut up. There was always
a chiffon moment for thesedancehall artists, for these male
(26:58):
dancehall artists, these verysheer and opaque looks where they
would be. It would be socolorful and so ornate and so flowy
and feminine at the same time.But in the same breath, J Ray, they
are spewing some, at times,some of the most homophobic lyrics
you ever want to hear. And it.And they drove. And the culture itself
(27:22):
was a hotbed for that, forthis underlying bubbling cauldron
of homophobia and. Andanything anti queer. Yes, but you
look queer as fuck you. Imean, if you look at some of the
outfits that Shabba had onNinja man be all of these early,
(27:42):
especially in the late 80s andthe early 90s, they were good for
wearing. There was. They weregood for wearing a see through something.
Yeah, something see through.Even the netted. And if you're. If
you're a West Indian person,you know exactly what I'm talking
about. You had a brother, son,uncle, dad that wore those mesh tank
(28:04):
tops.
Yep.
And then we had these yellow,green, all of that. And then we had
these mesh cut up that diamondcut up shirts and the shred. Oh,
Jay Ray. There was this. Idon't know if it came over to Pennsylvania,
but I know in New York youcould spot a Jamaican a mile away.
(28:24):
A Jamaican man, because he'sgoing to have on the shredded shirt.
Yes.
And it looked like a little.It was. It looked like a little skirt.
A little. A flapper skirt.Yeah, it was a long shirt and it
was cut up, it shredded and itallowed for them to, when they were
dancing, to have this verypeacock looking, peacock way of dressing
(28:47):
and showing off. And it wasjust so funny to me. And that's why
I'm so glad that we had thisconversation. Because when I was
thinking of it, I was likethose dancehall artists, dandy as
hell, queer looking as hell.
Yep.
But got the nerve to behomophobic or to be doing that back
in the day. And it was hot. Itwas accepted. It was just something
(29:07):
that we just accepted fromthem. But my God, they were gonna
have an exposed shoulder, theywere gonna have a puffy shoulder
shoulder moment. And it wassee through. I mean, it was just
the most. And they werecomplete dandies.
So it's interesting that youtalk about the homophobia and the
(29:29):
misogyny. Cause this actuallyleads me. I do wanna end. I know
we kind of started with thetime. I do wanna end with the time.
Right. And I actually wannapull something from this book. So
there is a book, it's calledFeel My Big Guitar, which is about
Prince. Right, of course. Butthey have a chapter, chapter three
(29:51):
in it is titled Zoot Suits andNew Jack Morris Day's Dandyism. And
it's by Karen Turman. I wantto pull a specific section of this
particular chapter because itspeaks to this very thing. So I wanna
(30:14):
bring this kind of into it.
Yes.
So I wanna start. This is page43. As Day mentions in his memoirs,
Prince manifests in Day'scharacter. This is a character from
Graffiti Bridge as anextension of himself. We see Prince
(30:37):
play with the cartoonishexaggerations and hyper masculine
stereotypes in the context ofDay as Prince's alter ego while distancing
himself from the behaviors ofthe film's villain. Despite the deconstruction
of gender expression exhibitedin the dandy figure, Morris D. Day's
(30:58):
character exemplifies theinherent complexity in the dandy's
ostensible appropriation ofaspects of traditional feminine appearance
while exhibiting hypermasculine behavior. This caricature
of the. This caricature of thedandified figure ultimately allowed
(31:19):
Day to steal the spotlight asthe outrageously entertaining, yet
misogynist villain in bothfilms. So he's talking about Purple
Rain and in Graffiti Bridge,right? Absolutely. So once again,
it was very clear and it.Later on in the book, it talks about
(31:40):
the fact The Times generaluniform is mostly aligned with the
zoot suit aesthetic. The zootsuit exemplifies radical dandyism,
especially in its originswearer's sociocultural implications
and the various interplicationand interpretations of its semiotics.
So it's talking about the factthat, listen, Morris Day as a character.
(32:05):
Not Morris Day the man, butMorris Day as a character. And this
dandy aesthetic that Morrisexhibited was also coupled with hyper
masculinity, misogyny, whichwe've talked about in Purple Rain.
We talk about that scene inPurple Rain all the time. Y' all
(32:26):
know what scene we talking about?
The dumpster.
Yes, the dumpster scene.Right. So it's always the interplay
of the masculine and thefeminine that's happening with. So
you're right. With theseaesthetics. It's in there. I don't
know if them brothers knew it,but we saw it. We saw what was happening.
(32:50):
You know what I mean? It waslike. We see what y' all doing, though.
You know, as we wrap up. Firstof all, this was a dope conversation
as usual. But as we wrap up, Iwant to give a honorable mention
and a shout out to one. Toanother figure that fits into this
(33:10):
black dandyism. But just afigure of, you know, of manhood and
style. Right. We gotta give itup to Arsenio Hall.
Yo, it's so funny that youmention him. I thought about him
and I was.
Like, ooh, yes, not amusician, but completely musician
adjacent. That man opened hisearwaves, his stage to so many black
(33:33):
performers, especially hip hopperformers, and gave them a platform
and all while making thedouble breasted suit popular. I mean,
the colors, the, the, the. Theshoulders. We can't get away from
the shoulders. But yes, hewas. He did not mind. I would love.
(33:54):
I want somebody should puttogether a picture book of Arsenio
Hall's looks.
Yeah.
During the duration of thatshow. Because he was well outfitted
in the run of the Arsenio hallshow. And I don't think anybody's
ever given it up to him forhis sense of style and for his. For
being suited and booted onprimetime television and network
(34:19):
television at that. So, yes, Ijust wanted to give a shout out to
Arsenio hall and to all thesesymbols of, you know, black manhood
on a spectrum. Jay Ray, Ithink we just can't. There's nothing
black and white about who weare and then who we are as men or
(34:39):
and, you know, maleidentifying people. It's just not
black and white. We. There isjust a spectrum of everything. And
you know it's cool to playwith the colors as we saw at the
Met Gala.
Absolutely. Thank y' all fortuning in. If you can see our faces
and hear our voices, pleasesubscribe. Share the show with your
friends, family, colleagues.If you love Queue Points, chances
(35:01):
are they will also love QueuePoints. Visit our website@qpoints.com
there you can listen to andwatch our entire archive of the many,
many episodes that we havehad. Shop our store@store.qpoints.com
you can keep the lights on andQueue Points Land. We really appreciate
y' all. Also check out ourmagazine, qpoints Magazine, where
(35:24):
you could get some additionalcontent. Oh, and you know what? We
gotta say this so y' all knowwe are live every Thursday, typically
around 8pm Eastern StandardTime. There's always a conversation
to have. So if you want to dipinto our brains, it's different than
this show. So sometimes thetopics overlap, but oftentimes they
(35:45):
don't. So if you want to justhang out with us, have some conversation
and jump in the chat, we arelive on Thursdays. You can find us
on YouTube and pretty much onQueue Points magazine and anywhere
else you can check out podcasts.
Absolutely. Thank you so much,J. Ray. But listen, what do I always
say? In this life, you have achoice. You can either pick up the
(36:06):
needle or you can let therecord play. I am DJ Sir Daniel.
My name is Jay Ray, y' all.
And this is Queue Pointspodcast. Dropping the needle on Black
Music History. We will see youon the next go round. Too sexy. Peace.
Peace, y' all.
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