December 24, 2024 • 22 mins
In this festive episode of Queue Points, DJ Sir Daniel and Jay Ray drop the needle on two holiday classics that continue to define Christmas for Black America—Nat King Cole's "The Christmas Song" and Donny Hathaway's "This Christmas." Why do these songs still hold a chokehold on our holiday playlists decades after their release? The duo dives into the rich history behind these tracks, exploring their cultural impact, the personal memories they evoke, and why covers of these songs often fall short of the originals. From the classy charm of Nat King Cole to the soulful groove of Donny Hathaway, this episode celebrates Black musical excellence and holiday traditions that span generations. Tune in, get cozy, and reflect on the songs that make the season bright!
#NatKingCole #DonnyHathaway #TheChristmasSong #ThisChristmas #BlackMusicHistory
Chapters
00:00 Intro Theme
00:16 Welcome to Queue Points Podcast
00:58 Holiday Music: Love or Hate?
02:14 The Magic of Classic Christmas Songs
03:34 The History Behind 'The Christmas Song'
07:06 The Story of 'This Christmas'
10:39 The Legacy and Impact of These Songs
13:32 Personal Holiday Memories
17:15 The Debate on Cover Songs
20:23 Wrapping Up and Final Thoughts
22:02 Closing Theme
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
DJ Sir Daniel (00:17):
and welcome back to another episode of Queue Points podcast.
I am DJ Sir Daniel.
Jay Ray (00:21):
And my name is Jay Ray, sometimes known by my government
as Johnnie Ray Kornegay thethird and Sir Daniel time flies.
We are back in the holidayseason, the holiday spirit, sir.
DJ Sir Daniel (00:36):
Absolutely.
It's that time of year.
Go ahead and double fist that hotcup of cocoa that you have right now.
And just cozy on up to another episodeof Queue Points podcast because Jay
Ray after years, and I do mean years,like especially for me after years of
experiencing the holidays and You know,all the stuff that comes along with it.
(00:58):
Does Christmas music still giveyou, you know, the warm fuzzies?
And does it, you know, makeyou feel holly and jolly still?
Cause I'm trying to think,does that still do it for me?
How about you?
Jay Ray (01:09):
So the short answer to your question is yes, but I feel like I
need to explain for because I wastoo cool for school for like a long
time, I would say things like, I'mnot really into holiday music, right?
That was a lie.
(01:30):
think what think what soured me toholiday music is as a person who
worked in retail for many, many, many,many, many, many, many, many years.
DJ Sir Daniel (01:39):
Talk about it.
Jay Ray (01:41):
In November, actually it was, so back then it was like November,
like you could time it, one, all of asudden the dang Beatles started playing
and would hear holiday music all day.
ad nauseum an entire month,uh, the entire two months.
(02:03):
So it was like November to December.
so I think I internalized that experiencewith, I don't like holiday music.
I do like holiday music and it doesstill give me the warm and fuzzies.
But I think what's interestingabout it, Sir Daniel is I
still like the classics, man.
The classics still do it for me.
I can listen to them classicsevery day, all the time.
(02:24):
Don't matter.
Yes.
DJ Sir Daniel (02:30):
had a chokehold specifically on the black community
since they dropped, um, last century,cause it's been, it's been a whole
nother century since these songsdropped, but they've been recycled.
They've been covered.
They've been, you know,fizzed up for new generations.
The originals still hold, holda magic over us the years.
(02:55):
And I'm talking about, of course, theChristmas song by Nat King Cole and
this Christmas by Donnie Hathaway.
And Jay Ray, since, uh, well,what is that hold that it has
over us in the black community?
Those two songs in particular, I havemy, I have some theories around it, but
(03:17):
you know, and you know me, I'm a, I guessI'm a theorist over here on Queue Points,
but I want to hear, you know, your takeon why these two songs in particular
kind of have a choke hold on us.
Jay Ray (03:31):
Hmm.
That is a really interesting question.
So what's interestingabout the Christmas song?
First and foremost, it was writtenby Robert Wells and Mel Tormé.
Um, but of course, madefamous by Nat King Cole.
Um, and I think that song has a chokeholdon our community because one, it was,
(03:54):
um, It was a song by a black artistreleased at a time when black artists
didn't have like the cachet and likethe general pop community at the time.
So, Nat King Cole, I think,represented the possibility
of the American dream, right?
(04:15):
And so black people were like, this.
DJ Sir Daniel (04:18):
give me that.
Yeah.
Jay Ray (04:19):
Give me more of that, please.
And also, it's well sung,and it's a beautiful song.
And they did their big one on that.
So that's, for the Christmassong, I think it's that.
For this Christmas, I thinkthis Christmas is just like a
quintessentially black Christmas song.
DJ Sir Daniel (04:36):
Mm hmm.
Jay Ray (04:37):
And I think that's why it has a chokehold on the black community.
And it's also a groove.
I mean, who can't did it,it did it, did it, did it.
It's got all the stuff thatblack folks want in that song.
Yeah.
I think that's why thosetwo songs have a chokehold.
What are you, what is your theory?
What is your
DJ Sir Daniel (04:54):
So I'm gonna hold my theory just a little bit because You um,
you brought up a couple things regardingboth songs, but preparing for this
episode, Jay Ray, you and I discoveredsome things regarding these records
that I don't think a lot of people know.
And that's what key points is here for.
Um, both songs are synonymous withthe holidays, but we discovered that
(05:17):
they were not immediate hit records.
Jay Ray (05:20):
Not at all.
So a couple of quick historynotes for the Christmas song.
So the Christmas song was, um, firstrecorded, which might surprise people.
It was first recorded in 1946by the Nat King Cole Trio.
It was written in 45, recorded in1946 by the Nat King Cole Trio.
And actually, the Christmas songhas Four distinct recordings.
(05:46):
So the first recording happened atWMCA Studios in 1946, as we mentioned.
There was another recording at Studiosin, um, so one was recorded in June,
one, one was recorded in August of 46.
The second recording there includedthe Nat King Cole trio and a choir.
(06:08):
they were like
DJ Sir Daniel (06:08):
Yeah.
Jay Ray (06:31):
fourth, recording of the song, which was actually recorded in 1961.
In the studio at Capitol Studios.
And that is the one thatwe're most familiar with.
It's Nat King Cole.
It wasn't even the NatKing Cole trio then.
It was just Nat King Cole, the band,the, the, the orchestra, et cetera.
(06:53):
Interesting tidbit about the Christmassong is there actually are four
different recordings of that songthat all kind of have their own feel.
We are the most familiar with thelast, so that's that on that one.
This Christmas, of course, written byone Donnie Hathaway, who is credited
as Donnie Pitts, uh, for this song andco written by Nadine Teresa McKenner.
(07:18):
Now Nadine is really importantto this song because the
song really starts with her.
DJ Sir Daniel (07:23):
Right.
Jay Ray (07:24):
She's working in, um, as the story goes, she
was working in the post office
DJ Sir Daniel (07:29):
Mm hmm.
Mm hmm.
Jay Ray (07:33):
Nat King Cole in her head.
DJ Sir Daniel (07:37):
So through line.
Yes.
Jay Ray (07:39):
through line.
So she's in there thinking about NatKing Cole and she's humming along this
Christmas, da, da, da, Nat King Cole.
We're doing a whole thing, tryingto get herself through the day.
And here comes the opportunity.
And that's 1967, by the
they wrote the song initially,
DJ Sir Daniel (07:57):
I think that's very important.
Jay Ray (07:59):
That is really important, right?
So this is, what, six years after the mostfamous version of Nat King Cole's song.
So that's still a contemporary song bythe time they record this Christmas.
Donny Hathaway's, uh, uh, tothis song is that Donny Hathaway
wanted a quintessentiallyblack Christmas song, right?
(08:23):
And, um, by 1970, they record thissong And Sir Daniel, we learned this.
We were both surprised by this.
this Christmas was nota hit when it dropped.
Like, this
DJ Sir Daniel (08:37):
paid it
Jay Ray (08:38):
y'all paid this Christmas dust.
This Christmas did not becomea hit song until after Mr.
Hathaway's death.
This Christmas was justlike, It languished for
years before becoming a hit.
DJ Sir Daniel (08:59):
And the thing about that with very popular songs, um, that
sometimes really great songs essence,sometimes they don't automatically
become a commercial success.
Jay Ray (09:13):
Mm
DJ Sir Daniel (09:13):
They're like crock pots.
And I think a lot of producers andmusicians back then wrote songs
Jay Ray (09:19):
Mm hmm.
DJ Sir Daniel (09:19):
for the crock pot generation.
Meaning that they were, they were allowed,yeah, those songs were allowed to simmer,
to stew, to, to, to, to double up onthe flavor and really get ingrained.
And then they have this longevitythat goes on for years, so much so
that in doing research for this,um, topic, I discovered that there
(09:40):
are like 80 covers and counting.
Of the Donny Hathaway classic thisChristmas, 80 covers and counting.
Cause I'm sure I'm certain when y'allis out there cooking up a remix right
now that we may not need, but goahead, do your thing, do your big one.
it in the mix.
(10:01):
You see what happens.
Maybe it'll become a hit for you.
But yes, there's like 80 pluscovers of this Christmas.
There are approximately 1, 709covers of the Nat King Cole
classic, the Christmas song.
That's
Jay Ray (10:21):
makes
DJ Sir Daniel (10:25):
industry is all about collecting dollars.
And sometimes if it ain't broke, fix it.
do, you know, don't recreate, you don'thave to recreate the wheel, just do what
works and give the people what they want.
So we come to the end of, um, as weget ready to wrap up on this episode,
I kind of want to go back to what Iwas asking you in regards to why these
(10:49):
songs have such a chokehold on us,specifically in the black community.
you hit the nail on the head.
Jay Ray (10:55):
Silence.
DJ Sir Daniel (11:03):
this Christmas reflect two distinct eras in black America's history.
Jay Ray (11:11):
Yes.
DJ Sir Daniel (11:35):
of the things that affected black Americans deeply in the
Jim Crow era, the post civil war era,the, you know, right up until the civil
rights movement, there's this, likeyou said earlier, this need to feel Um,
like you're entitled to the Americandream and whatever that looks like.
(11:57):
Well, back then it looked like class.
It looked like pearls.
It looked like, you know, astarched suit and, you know,
mom with her pin curls and 2.
5, 2.
5 kids and a dog.
All of those things that wewere told is the American dream.
I don't know that this is somethingthat they just kept telling
us while we were growing up.
Jay Ray (12:19):
what did that mean?
DJ Sir Daniel (12:21):
Well, I think back then you were encouraged, like
it was, they were encouraged forpopulation reasons to have 2.
5.
It's like two in a possible.
I don't know what that meant either.
And the dog, don't forget the dog.
You gotta have that.
Jay Ray (12:33):
the dog.
You have to have a dog.
Right.
DJ Sir Daniel (12:35):
And so, so yes, that's why we get this picture of, and Nat
King Cole fit the bill, you know, hewas a, a beautiful, Dark skinned black
man, but he had that clonk was on point.
It was slanted to the side and he hada part, you know, he was, you know, the
suit and tie just very classy set, youknow, something that we as black Americans
(12:59):
could aspire to and white America feltcomfortable around, which is really the
biggest deal is that they felt comfortablewith that representation of black.
This and yeah, and so that's why theywere, they were on fine with that.
And I think that's whatpropelled that song to heights.
(13:20):
then this Christmas wasthe opposite, but go ahead.
I see you
Jay Ray (13:24):
Yeah,
DJ Sir Daniel (13:24):
to say something.
Mm hmm.
Mm hmm.
Mm.
Jay Ray (13:32):
So I know that I've mentioned this in past holiday
episodes, but it bears repeating.
Um, for me, the Christmas songrepresents like the, the start of the
holidays because my father, he hadthat old tattered Nat King Cole album
with all the Christmas, like it wouldbe like the cover was falling apart.
(13:54):
Cause he had had it since thenight, this is 1961, right?
But he would pop that neck KingCole on as we were decorating the
tree or doing whatever we weredoing around the house during the
holidays, especially if he was home.
Um, during that time, if he workedfirst shift during the holidays, we knew
that that evening dad was going to wantto do lights and do the tree and that
(14:18):
King Cole was going to start playing.
Even though I couldn't smell it, right?
Even though I'm sorry, even thoughwe didn't have it, I could smell
chestnuts roasting on an open fire.
I don't know what that smelled like,but I, I do know what it smelled like
because we was smelling it in my house.
It wasn't no chestnuts roastingon Wayne had no open flyers, no
open fires other than the stove.
(14:38):
It wasn't no chestnuts onthere, but the feeling, right?
You smelled it.
You felt it.
My father never played.
I don't know that he evenowned this Christmas.
DJ Sir Daniel (14:51):
That's wild that you say that, because from what I understand,
a lot of, a lot of us don't includethe Christmas song on their list of
like favorite Christmas Black Christmasholiday music, I think, and this is where
this Christmas comes in this Christmasis post civil rights era is very much
(15:14):
in the, you know, the Black Panthermovement is going on and we're in this
era of I'm black and I'm proud and,you know, we're moving into the future.
We're moving in front into theseventies and, you know, Black
people are feeling empowered anda lot of those respectability
politics were out of the window.
And this Christmas, whereas the othersong was patent leather shoes and pearls,
(15:39):
this Christmas is definitely an Afropick and a leather jacket, you know,
and maybe a turtleneck because it'sreflecting a reflection of the time.
And, you know, Donnie Hathaway,of course, that image of him
with the big Applejack hat.
Jay Ray (15:55):
Yes.
DJ Sir Daniel (16:17):
dream is starting to feel like, wait a minute, is that real?
Or is it a fantasy?
You know, I'm, I'm here trying topursue it, but I don't know if I'm
actually going to have it, but.
it comes to Christmastime, can createthis moment of togetherness, of longing
togetherness, and longing for a feelingof warmth and soul through this song, and
(16:41):
we are forever grateful for Donnie and Mr.
McKinnon for putting pen to paper andcreating this holiday classic for us.
Black America to enjoy,
Jay Ray (16:51):
Yeah.
DJ Sir Daniel (16:56):
um, the diaspora, you know, like I said, you can't have a
song that's been covered over 80 timesand not have different flavors of it.
Jay Ray (17:04):
Sir Daniel, I got a question then.
Let's, let's, let's, let's,let's, let's talk about it.
I'mma just share my, my perspective.
I actually think this Christmas is sogood that people don't need to cover it.
I feel like this Christmas as Iget why people cover the, the, the
(17:26):
Christmas song because it's a standard.
Like, it's a standard at
DJ Sir Daniel (17:30):
Yes.
Jay Ray (17:31):
In the culture, right?
It has an arrangement, youknow, where the notes land, you
know, what the structure is.
Whereas this Christmas is a groove itcould be a lot of things, but I think
the original is actually so perfectthat we should just leave it there.
are your thoughts on peoplecovering this Christmas?
(17:54):
Cause I don't like none of the covers.
I heard a cover of thisChristmas that I like.
DJ Sir Daniel (18:00):
You know,
I forget who said this, butit's like a running joke.
At least you tried.
It's very much.
At least you tried.
We get it.
Um,
that's the thing about covers andwe're going to talk about covers
in the upcoming episodes soon.
(18:21):
So make sure you stay tunedto Queue Points and subscribe.
So when that episode drops, you'llget to chime in on that as well.
Jay Ray (18:28):
Uh,
DJ Sir Daniel (18:28):
But
Jay Ray (18:29):
Uh,
DJ Sir Daniel (18:30):
the feeling around covers is.
Jay Ray (18:32):
Uh,
DJ Sir Daniel (18:33):
one of those things that nobody really asks
for, but I believe just artists
Jay Ray (18:39):
Uh,
DJ Sir Daniel (18:40):
have this feeling in themselves, like
Jay Ray (18:43):
Uh, Uh, Uh,
DJ Sir Daniel (18:45):
that I need to take on.
Jay Ray (18:47):
Uh,
DJ Sir Daniel (18:48):
somebody else's music.
Some might cover a classic
Jay Ray (18:51):
Uh,
DJ Sir Daniel (18:52):
and it's also, again, it also is business.
industry realizes.
that covers Christmas albums,generate, um, money every single year.
McThank you, Mariah Carey.
They, you know, we really,
Jay Ray (19:08):
out November 1st.
DJ Sir Daniel (19:10):
you know, she started out already, so she's ready to go.
And so I think that's justsomething that the industry is crew
has created for another carrot.
For artists to, to chase after.
a lot of times they don't evenreally want to participate in it.
They just do it because it'ssomething that they're told that
they have to do contractually.
(19:32):
So a lot of times this not even there,they're not even wanting to do it.
So, you know, I can takeor leave a lot of covers.
It's very rare that somebody comesalong and is like, Oh yeah, you know,
you put your foot in that and shoutout to people like Brandy and Robert
Glasper and people like that, that have.
Put out new Christmas musicwith different spins on it.
(19:56):
And I don't know if it'll catch onto be a classic, like these two songs
that we've discussed, but the fact thatthey've attempted and that they are
inserting new, um, Christmas music inthe American songbook is to be commended.
And we hope that new artists followsuit and give us some, you know, give us
(20:17):
something else, try and give us somethingthat can become your own classic.
Jay Ray (20:21):
Yeah, absolutely.
Y'all, thank you so much for tuningin as we wax poetic about, uh, the
Christmas song and this Christmas.
you all so much.
If you can hear us, if youcan see us, please subscribe.
Tell a friend about the show.
Friends, family, colleagues, if youenjoy Queue Points, chances are they
will enjoy Queue Points as well.
(20:43):
the question.
And Which song is your favorite?
Do you like the Christmas song?
Do you like this Christmas?
Is there another Christmasclassic that you really enjoy?
Let us know.
You can always email usat info at Queue Points.
com.
Find us on social media at Definitelyhop in our DMs and let us know.
(21:03):
We would love to share yourfavorite Christmas song.
it out.
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com.
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(21:27):
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We'd really appreciate it.
Helps to keep the lightson in Queue Points land.
We love y'all.
We appreciate y'all.
DJ Sir Daniel (21:42):
That's right.
And what do I say at the endof every episode in this life?
You have a choice.
You can either pick up the needleor you can let the record play.
My name is DJ Sir Daniel,
Jay Ray (21:52):
My name is Jay Ray, y'all.
DJ Sir Daniel (21:54):
and this has been Queue Points podcast, dropping
the needle on black music history.
We'll see you on the next go round.
Peace.
Jay Ray (22:01):
Peace, y'all.
and welcome back to another episode of Queue Points podcast.
I am DJ Sir Daniel.
Jay Ray (00:21):
And my name is Jay Ray, sometimes known by my government
as Johnnie Ray Kornegay thethird and Sir Daniel time flies.
We are back in the holidayseason, the holiday spirit, sir.
DJ Sir Daniel (00:36):
Absolutely.
It's that time of year.
Go ahead and double fist that hotcup of cocoa that you have right now.
And just cozy on up to another episodeof Queue Points podcast because Jay
Ray after years, and I do mean years,like especially for me after years of
experiencing the holidays and You know,all the stuff that comes along with it.
(00:58):
Does Christmas music still giveyou, you know, the warm fuzzies?
And does it, you know, makeyou feel holly and jolly still?
Cause I'm trying to think,does that still do it for me?
How about you?
Jay Ray (01:09):
So the short answer to your question is yes, but I feel like I
need to explain for because I wastoo cool for school for like a long
time, I would say things like, I'mnot really into holiday music, right?
That was a lie.
(01:30):
think what think what soured me toholiday music is as a person who
worked in retail for many, many, many,many, many, many, many, many years.
DJ Sir Daniel (01:39):
Talk about it.
Jay Ray (01:41):
In November, actually it was, so back then it was like November,
like you could time it, one, all of asudden the dang Beatles started playing
and would hear holiday music all day.
ad nauseum an entire month,uh, the entire two months.
(02:03):
So it was like November to December.
so I think I internalized that experiencewith, I don't like holiday music.
I do like holiday music and it doesstill give me the warm and fuzzies.
But I think what's interestingabout it, Sir Daniel is I
still like the classics, man.
The classics still do it for me.
I can listen to them classicsevery day, all the time.
(02:24):
Don't matter.
Yes.
DJ Sir Daniel (02:30):
had a chokehold specifically on the black community
since they dropped, um, last century,cause it's been, it's been a whole
nother century since these songsdropped, but they've been recycled.
They've been covered.
They've been, you know,fizzed up for new generations.
The originals still hold, holda magic over us the years.
(02:55):
And I'm talking about, of course, theChristmas song by Nat King Cole and
this Christmas by Donnie Hathaway.
And Jay Ray, since, uh, well,what is that hold that it has
over us in the black community?
Those two songs in particular, I havemy, I have some theories around it, but
(03:17):
you know, and you know me, I'm a, I guessI'm a theorist over here on Queue Points,
but I want to hear, you know, your takeon why these two songs in particular
kind of have a choke hold on us.
Jay Ray (03:31):
Hmm.
That is a really interesting question.
So what's interestingabout the Christmas song?
First and foremost, it was writtenby Robert Wells and Mel Tormé.
Um, but of course, madefamous by Nat King Cole.
Um, and I think that song has a chokeholdon our community because one, it was,
(03:54):
um, It was a song by a black artistreleased at a time when black artists
didn't have like the cachet and likethe general pop community at the time.
So, Nat King Cole, I think,represented the possibility
of the American dream, right?
(04:15):
And so black people were like, this.
DJ Sir Daniel (04:18):
give me that.
Yeah.
Jay Ray (04:19):
Give me more of that, please.
And also, it's well sung,and it's a beautiful song.
And they did their big one on that.
So that's, for the Christmassong, I think it's that.
For this Christmas, I thinkthis Christmas is just like a
quintessentially black Christmas song.
DJ Sir Daniel (04:36):
Mm hmm.
Jay Ray (04:37):
And I think that's why it has a chokehold on the black community.
And it's also a groove.
I mean, who can't did it,it did it, did it, did it.
It's got all the stuff thatblack folks want in that song.
Yeah.
I think that's why thosetwo songs have a chokehold.
What are you, what is your theory?
What is your
DJ Sir Daniel (04:54):
So I'm gonna hold my theory just a little bit because You um,
you brought up a couple things regardingboth songs, but preparing for this
episode, Jay Ray, you and I discoveredsome things regarding these records
that I don't think a lot of people know.
And that's what key points is here for.
Um, both songs are synonymous withthe holidays, but we discovered that
(05:17):
they were not immediate hit records.
Jay Ray (05:20):
Not at all.
So a couple of quick historynotes for the Christmas song.
So the Christmas song was, um, firstrecorded, which might surprise people.
It was first recorded in 1946by the Nat King Cole Trio.
It was written in 45, recorded in1946 by the Nat King Cole Trio.
And actually, the Christmas songhas Four distinct recordings.
(05:46):
So the first recording happened atWMCA Studios in 1946, as we mentioned.
There was another recording at Studiosin, um, so one was recorded in June,
one, one was recorded in August of 46.
The second recording there includedthe Nat King Cole trio and a choir.
(06:08):
they were like
DJ Sir Daniel (06:08):
Yeah.
Jay Ray (06:31):
fourth, recording of the song, which was actually recorded in 1961.
In the studio at Capitol Studios.
And that is the one thatwe're most familiar with.
It's Nat King Cole.
It wasn't even the NatKing Cole trio then.
It was just Nat King Cole, the band,the, the, the orchestra, et cetera.
(06:53):
Interesting tidbit about the Christmassong is there actually are four
different recordings of that songthat all kind of have their own feel.
We are the most familiar with thelast, so that's that on that one.
This Christmas, of course, written byone Donnie Hathaway, who is credited
as Donnie Pitts, uh, for this song andco written by Nadine Teresa McKenner.
(07:18):
Now Nadine is really importantto this song because the
song really starts with her.
DJ Sir Daniel (07:23):
Right.
Jay Ray (07:24):
She's working in, um, as the story goes, she
was working in the post office
DJ Sir Daniel (07:29):
Mm hmm.
Mm hmm.
Jay Ray (07:33):
Nat King Cole in her head.
DJ Sir Daniel (07:37):
So through line.
Yes.
Jay Ray (07:39):
through line.
So she's in there thinking about NatKing Cole and she's humming along this
Christmas, da, da, da, Nat King Cole.
We're doing a whole thing, tryingto get herself through the day.
And here comes the opportunity.
And that's 1967, by the
they wrote the song initially,
DJ Sir Daniel (07:57):
I think that's very important.
Jay Ray (07:59):
That is really important, right?
So this is, what, six years after the mostfamous version of Nat King Cole's song.
So that's still a contemporary song bythe time they record this Christmas.
Donny Hathaway's, uh, uh, tothis song is that Donny Hathaway
wanted a quintessentiallyblack Christmas song, right?
(08:23):
And, um, by 1970, they record thissong And Sir Daniel, we learned this.
We were both surprised by this.
this Christmas was nota hit when it dropped.
Like, this
DJ Sir Daniel (08:37):
paid it
Jay Ray (08:38):
y'all paid this Christmas dust.
This Christmas did not becomea hit song until after Mr.
Hathaway's death.
This Christmas was justlike, It languished for
years before becoming a hit.
DJ Sir Daniel (08:59):
And the thing about that with very popular songs, um, that
sometimes really great songs essence,sometimes they don't automatically
become a commercial success.
Jay Ray (09:13):
Mm
DJ Sir Daniel (09:13):
They're like crock pots.
And I think a lot of producers andmusicians back then wrote songs
Jay Ray (09:19):
Mm hmm.
DJ Sir Daniel (09:19):
for the crock pot generation.
Meaning that they were, they were allowed,yeah, those songs were allowed to simmer,
to stew, to, to, to, to double up onthe flavor and really get ingrained.
And then they have this longevitythat goes on for years, so much so
that in doing research for this,um, topic, I discovered that there
(09:40):
are like 80 covers and counting.
Of the Donny Hathaway classic thisChristmas, 80 covers and counting.
Cause I'm sure I'm certain when y'allis out there cooking up a remix right
now that we may not need, but goahead, do your thing, do your big one.
it in the mix.
(10:01):
You see what happens.
Maybe it'll become a hit for you.
But yes, there's like 80 pluscovers of this Christmas.
There are approximately 1, 709covers of the Nat King Cole
classic, the Christmas song.
That's
Jay Ray (10:21):
makes
DJ Sir Daniel (10:25):
industry is all about collecting dollars.
And sometimes if it ain't broke, fix it.
do, you know, don't recreate, you don'thave to recreate the wheel, just do what
works and give the people what they want.
So we come to the end of, um, as weget ready to wrap up on this episode,
I kind of want to go back to what Iwas asking you in regards to why these
(10:49):
songs have such a chokehold on us,specifically in the black community.
you hit the nail on the head.
Jay Ray (10:55):
Silence.
DJ Sir Daniel (11:03):
this Christmas reflect two distinct eras in black America's history.
Jay Ray (11:11):
Yes.
DJ Sir Daniel (11:35):
of the things that affected black Americans deeply in the
Jim Crow era, the post civil war era,the, you know, right up until the civil
rights movement, there's this, likeyou said earlier, this need to feel Um,
like you're entitled to the Americandream and whatever that looks like.
(11:57):
Well, back then it looked like class.
It looked like pearls.
It looked like, you know, astarched suit and, you know,
mom with her pin curls and 2.
5, 2.
5 kids and a dog.
All of those things that wewere told is the American dream.
I don't know that this is somethingthat they just kept telling
us while we were growing up.
Jay Ray (12:19):
what did that mean?
DJ Sir Daniel (12:21):
Well, I think back then you were encouraged, like
it was, they were encouraged forpopulation reasons to have 2.
5.
It's like two in a possible.
I don't know what that meant either.
And the dog, don't forget the dog.
You gotta have that.
Jay Ray (12:33):
the dog.
You have to have a dog.
Right.
DJ Sir Daniel (12:35):
And so, so yes, that's why we get this picture of, and Nat
King Cole fit the bill, you know, hewas a, a beautiful, Dark skinned black
man, but he had that clonk was on point.
It was slanted to the side and he hada part, you know, he was, you know, the
suit and tie just very classy set, youknow, something that we as black Americans
(12:59):
could aspire to and white America feltcomfortable around, which is really the
biggest deal is that they felt comfortablewith that representation of black.
This and yeah, and so that's why theywere, they were on fine with that.
And I think that's whatpropelled that song to heights.
(13:20):
then this Christmas wasthe opposite, but go ahead.
I see you
Jay Ray (13:24):
Yeah,
DJ Sir Daniel (13:24):
to say something.
Mm hmm.
Mm hmm.
Mm.
Jay Ray (13:32):
So I know that I've mentioned this in past holiday
episodes, but it bears repeating.
Um, for me, the Christmas songrepresents like the, the start of the
holidays because my father, he hadthat old tattered Nat King Cole album
with all the Christmas, like it wouldbe like the cover was falling apart.
(13:54):
Cause he had had it since thenight, this is 1961, right?
But he would pop that neck KingCole on as we were decorating the
tree or doing whatever we weredoing around the house during the
holidays, especially if he was home.
Um, during that time, if he workedfirst shift during the holidays, we knew
that that evening dad was going to wantto do lights and do the tree and that
(14:18):
King Cole was going to start playing.
Even though I couldn't smell it, right?
Even though I'm sorry, even thoughwe didn't have it, I could smell
chestnuts roasting on an open fire.
I don't know what that smelled like,but I, I do know what it smelled like
because we was smelling it in my house.
It wasn't no chestnuts roastingon Wayne had no open flyers, no
open fires other than the stove.
(14:38):
It wasn't no chestnuts onthere, but the feeling, right?
You smelled it.
You felt it.
My father never played.
I don't know that he evenowned this Christmas.
DJ Sir Daniel (14:51):
That's wild that you say that, because from what I understand,
a lot of, a lot of us don't includethe Christmas song on their list of
like favorite Christmas Black Christmasholiday music, I think, and this is where
this Christmas comes in this Christmasis post civil rights era is very much
(15:14):
in the, you know, the Black Panthermovement is going on and we're in this
era of I'm black and I'm proud and,you know, we're moving into the future.
We're moving in front into theseventies and, you know, Black
people are feeling empowered anda lot of those respectability
politics were out of the window.
And this Christmas, whereas the othersong was patent leather shoes and pearls,
(15:39):
this Christmas is definitely an Afropick and a leather jacket, you know,
and maybe a turtleneck because it'sreflecting a reflection of the time.
And, you know, Donnie Hathaway,of course, that image of him
with the big Applejack hat.
Jay Ray (15:55):
Yes.
DJ Sir Daniel (16:17):
dream is starting to feel like, wait a minute, is that real?
Or is it a fantasy?
You know, I'm, I'm here trying topursue it, but I don't know if I'm
actually going to have it, but.
it comes to Christmastime, can createthis moment of togetherness, of longing
togetherness, and longing for a feelingof warmth and soul through this song, and
(16:41):
we are forever grateful for Donnie and Mr.
McKinnon for putting pen to paper andcreating this holiday classic for us.
Black America to enjoy,
Jay Ray (16:51):
Yeah.
DJ Sir Daniel (16:56):
um, the diaspora, you know, like I said, you can't have a
song that's been covered over 80 timesand not have different flavors of it.
Jay Ray (17:04):
Sir Daniel, I got a question then.
Let's, let's, let's, let's,let's, let's talk about it.
I'mma just share my, my perspective.
I actually think this Christmas is sogood that people don't need to cover it.
I feel like this Christmas as Iget why people cover the, the, the
(17:26):
Christmas song because it's a standard.
Like, it's a standard at
DJ Sir Daniel (17:30):
Yes.
Jay Ray (17:31):
In the culture, right?
It has an arrangement, youknow, where the notes land, you
know, what the structure is.
Whereas this Christmas is a groove itcould be a lot of things, but I think
the original is actually so perfectthat we should just leave it there.
are your thoughts on peoplecovering this Christmas?
(17:54):
Cause I don't like none of the covers.
I heard a cover of thisChristmas that I like.
DJ Sir Daniel (18:00):
You know,
I forget who said this, butit's like a running joke.
At least you tried.
It's very much.
At least you tried.
We get it.
Um,
that's the thing about covers andwe're going to talk about covers
in the upcoming episodes soon.
(18:21):
So make sure you stay tunedto Queue Points and subscribe.
So when that episode drops, you'llget to chime in on that as well.
Jay Ray (18:28):
Uh,
DJ Sir Daniel (18:28):
But
Jay Ray (18:29):
Uh,
DJ Sir Daniel (18:30):
the feeling around covers is.
Jay Ray (18:32):
Uh,
DJ Sir Daniel (18:33):
one of those things that nobody really asks
for, but I believe just artists
Jay Ray (18:39):
Uh,
DJ Sir Daniel (18:40):
have this feeling in themselves, like
Jay Ray (18:43):
Uh, Uh, Uh,
DJ Sir Daniel (18:45):
that I need to take on.
Jay Ray (18:47):
Uh,
DJ Sir Daniel (18:48):
somebody else's music.
Some might cover a classic
Jay Ray (18:51):
Uh,
DJ Sir Daniel (18:52):
and it's also, again, it also is business.
industry realizes.
that covers Christmas albums,generate, um, money every single year.
McThank you, Mariah Carey.
They, you know, we really,
Jay Ray (19:08):
out November 1st.
DJ Sir Daniel (19:10):
you know, she started out already, so she's ready to go.
And so I think that's justsomething that the industry is crew
has created for another carrot.
For artists to, to chase after.
a lot of times they don't evenreally want to participate in it.
They just do it because it'ssomething that they're told that
they have to do contractually.
(19:32):
So a lot of times this not even there,they're not even wanting to do it.
So, you know, I can takeor leave a lot of covers.
It's very rare that somebody comesalong and is like, Oh yeah, you know,
you put your foot in that and shoutout to people like Brandy and Robert
Glasper and people like that, that have.
Put out new Christmas musicwith different spins on it.
(19:56):
And I don't know if it'll catch onto be a classic, like these two songs
that we've discussed, but the fact thatthey've attempted and that they are
inserting new, um, Christmas music inthe American songbook is to be commended.
And we hope that new artists followsuit and give us some, you know, give us
(20:17):
something else, try and give us somethingthat can become your own classic.
Jay Ray (20:21):
Yeah, absolutely.
Y'all, thank you so much for tuningin as we wax poetic about, uh, the
Christmas song and this Christmas.
you all so much.
If you can hear us, if youcan see us, please subscribe.
Tell a friend about the show.
Friends, family, colleagues, if youenjoy Queue Points, chances are they
will enjoy Queue Points as well.
(20:43):
the question.
And Which song is your favorite?
Do you like the Christmas song?
Do you like this Christmas?
Is there another Christmasclassic that you really enjoy?
Let us know.
You can always email usat info at Queue Points.
com.
Find us on social media at Definitelyhop in our DMs and let us know.
(21:03):
We would love to share yourfavorite Christmas song.
it out.
If you want to support Queue Points, headon over to our website at Queue Points.
com.
You can do a lot of things over there.
You could subscribe to our newsletter.
You could get additionalcontent over on our sub stack.
That's magazine.
Queue Points.
com.
While you're over there, you can alsoread, um, other stories and other content
(21:27):
that we have in the Queue Points universe.
And last but not least, you can go aheadand you can shop our store at store.
Queue Points.
com.
We'd really appreciate it.
Helps to keep the lightson in Queue Points land.
We love y'all.
We appreciate y'all.
DJ Sir Daniel (21:42):
That's right.
And what do I say at the endof every episode in this life?
You have a choice.
You can either pick up the needleor you can let the record play.
My name is DJ Sir Daniel,
Jay Ray (21:52):
My name is Jay Ray, y'all.
DJ Sir Daniel (21:54):
and this has been Queue Points podcast, dropping
the needle on black music history.
We'll see you on the next go round.
Peace.
Jay Ray (22:01):
Peace, y'all.
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