March 17, 2025 • 20 mins
Melody sits down with Parker Webb, Worship Pastor at Green Street Baptist Church, and Pastor Ben Webb, Pastor of Enon Baptist Church. Together, they share invaluable advice for young pastors and worship leaders, offering encouragement and practical wisdom for those stepping into ministry. They also discuss the crucial role of worship music in the church, emphasizing the importance of ensuring that the songs we sing on Sunday mornings are doctrinally sound and align with Scripture. Whether you're a church leader, worshipper, or simply passionate about faith-filled music, this conversation is filled with insight and inspiration. Don't miss this thoughtful and enriching conversation on Quirks, Bumps & Bruises!
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hi, I'm Melody and I'm Candy, and you're listening
to Quirks, bumps and Bruises.
On this episode of Quirks,bumps and Bruises, we sit down
with Parker Webb and Pastor BenWebb and talk about topics that
I think are very important, andI think you're going to enjoy
hearing what they have to saygiving some advice to young
(00:20):
pastors and worship leaders, aswell as the importance of music
and theology and the songs thatwe sing while we worship.
But, as you know, candy is outon maternity leave and I like
having people in here with mebecause I get bored very easy.
So I've asked the one and onlyParker Webb, who, by the way,
co-hosted with me last week.
I loved it.
Thank you for having me back.
(00:41):
Well, you're welcome.
You're welcome, we'll have youback again.
And then my sweet, adorable,kind, loving son-in-law you
forgot humble listen, brother.
Speaker 2 (00:52):
You're gonna have to ping pong that one back to her
some point this morning.
Speaker 1 (00:55):
I can tell you pastor ben webb, pastor of eden
baptist church in east bend,north carolina, and then parker
you are worship leader at greenstreet that's right church in
high point, north car, carolinaand so we were talking kind of
off the air and I said you know,this is something good to talk
about.
So I said let's hold thatconversation and then let's talk
about this.
So the question is this and Iwill start with you, ben, as a
(01:17):
pastor if you could give onepiece of advice for a new pastor
coming up they come to you andthey're just starting, it's
their first church what wouldthat piece of advice be?
Speaker 4 (01:28):
First piece of advice every guy that I'm involved in
ordaining, I give them this onepiece of advice, and that's just
be yourself.
Don't try to be anybody else.
God didn't make you to beanybody else, and if God's
called you to a church, thenGod's called you, not someone
else.
And if you're emulating theirsuccess, you're actually going
to do harm to the church,because God called you to be
there, not them.
If he'd have wanted someoneelse there, he'd have sent them
(01:49):
there.
So be yourself, be what Godmade you.
Melody, you know this.
I'm a 75-year-old man stuck ina 35-year-old man's body.
Speaker 1 (01:57):
You kind of are, but so is.
Speaker 2 (01:58):
Parker no, listen, I'm old soul.
Speaker 1 (02:02):
I think that's why you two connect so well.
I know, I know.
Speaker 4 (02:05):
But the older I get, the more comfortable.
I am with that For sure.
I'm okay being me.
I'm the only 36-year-old I knowthat would rather be wearing a
suit and tie and cuff linksFrench cuff than whatever is
popular right now.
But the older I get, the morecomfortable.
I am with that For sure, justbeing myself.
Speaker 1 (02:20):
And, and you're going to stick with it, I'm going to,
so just be yourself.
Speaker 4 (02:22):
Don't try to emulate anyone else.
Speaker 1 (02:24):
You can give too, if you'd like.
Speaker 4 (02:25):
Okay, the second piece of advice I'd give a young
pastor is get to know yoursheep, and by that I mean get to
know what they struggle with,what they're dealing with.
But if you can learn early onin ministry to recognize the
difference between mental healthissues and spiritual issues, it
will save you a lot of griefand a lot of time For sure.
(02:45):
And there are ways to learn torecognize the differences,
because people with mentalhealth issues need help they
genuinely need help, but theydon't need a scripture and a pat
on the back and a prayer totell them to just do better.
And so you're going to gothrough the same patterns over
and over and over with thosepeople and never actually see
any progress.
So if you can learn to spot thedifference between something
(03:09):
that's a mental health issue andsomething that's actually a
spiritual issue, it will saveyou so much time and make your
ministry so much more productive.
Speaker 1 (03:13):
You know, it's kind of like teachers in school you
have the kids that tend tosometimes disrupt, and they're
labeled that as a disruptor,when in actuality they may have
ADD or just some situations thatneed some medication or
whatever the case may be.
I think the same in church,some that are maybe dealing with
(03:33):
some mental issues, could,without maybe trying, cause some
issues within the church.
But it's not really about that,it's about this, and so to be
able to recognize that, I thinkis good.
And as a side note, before Iask Parker, I will say that Ben
did get to know the sheep atCrestwood, where I go to church,
and he married her.
Speaker 2 (03:56):
I stay in one step beyond the call of duty, right
there.
Speaker 1 (03:58):
We're going to move on to you, parker, as a worship
leader.
You've got a young,20-something worship leader
coming in, excited, ready to go.
What are you going to tell themas?
Speaker 2 (04:07):
advice Same thing, especially on the music side.
I see guys trying to emulatewhoever their hero is in the
faith, whoever they experiencegrowing up.
Thankfully, our family was onthe road for 40 years and my
example was my dad.
So I saw the perfect example.
(04:28):
My dad was never trying toemulate anybody.
He was being true to who he wasand who God called him to be,
and the Lord blessed it.
And so I would say the same,especially worship leaders.
Now we're talking about anartist on that side, but on the
worship leader side, your job isto lead and to give the
congregation, I would say, thepermission to lead and to join
(04:51):
you in worship.
So when you're getting up thereand they're looking at you and
they think you're trying to belike Gerald Wolfe doing the hymn
, gerald Wolfe leads the hymn,sing like nobody else.
The amazing thing about GeraldWolfe is he has vocal issues
going on right now.
Half the time he's not evensinging, but Gerald is able,
with the help of the Holy Spirit, lead that congregation like
(05:14):
nobody else.
So, ben, you're spot on.
God created you unique.
He called you into that.
Whatever that role is at yourlocal church, be who he created
you to be.
And so so I think it's the samefor pastors and for preachers
and for worship leaders.
Speaker 1 (05:32):
So, Ben, you had something you kind of wanted to
add to all of this discussion.
Speaker 4 (05:35):
Embrace your handicaps Right, the things that
you're weak at Now.
I'm not saying we can't getbetter Right but there are some
things that I just don't have.
That's right that other peopledo.
There are some handicaps that Ihave that others don't have,
but those handicaps may beintentional, Totally.
They may be given by God forspecific reasons.
I think of the Old Testamentjudge I can't remember what's
(05:56):
his name the left-handed judgethat killed Eglon, and it was
because he was left-handed.
Left-handed was considered ahandicap at the time.
Some even thought that you weredemonic if you were left-handed
.
It was his left-handedness thatenabled him to smuggle in a
dagger and take out the king ofMoab.
So your handicaps may actuallybe a gift.
(06:17):
I struggled for so long to askGod for so long God, would you
free me to be able to preachjust off the cuff without a
manuscript?
And it was almost like God didwith Paul where he said, no, I'm
not going to do that.
Now I've realized I want topublish some things in the
future.
I've realized I have stacks ofbooks already written.
They just need to be edited,because I've written three and
(06:38):
four thousand word manuscriptsevery Sunday for the last 10
years.
That's right, and so yourhandicaps may actually be God's
gifts for his glory, so don'trun from them.
Speaker 2 (06:46):
Embrace them For sure .
Well, and that was the case forme at seminary, I had the
biggest struggle that's thekindest way I can say it with
sitting around talking aboutmusic all day long.
I struggled.
In theory it was just a majorstruggle.
Well, I do believe God is usingthat in my life, knowing I
(07:08):
would be a worship pastorsomeday and I can kind of take
all the extra fluff out of thetechnicalities of music and
focus in on what is going toallow our people to worship God,
what songs fit the DNA of ourpeople that causes them to look
upward towards God.
And so you're right, I was ahorrible student, absolutely
(07:28):
horrible student.
In fact.
I had a teacher walk by mysenior year.
I had my cap and gown on and heleaned over as he was walking.
He's like oh, by the way, youdid pass the class so you can
keep on walking up there to the.
I was a horrible student but Godused that, I believe, to help
me stay focused on what I needednow, as a 38-year-old, as a
(07:48):
worship pastor.
So he uses our weaknesses 100%.
Well, you see that all throughthe Bible right Moses and all
the rest of them, that's the onehe uses the most.
Speaker 1 (07:57):
Well, great advice, all right.
You young pastors, you youngworship leaders, you need to
take heed, take advice, and Idon't think that you guys could
have said that any better.
So, very well said.
Let's move on to anotherimportant topic, which is music
in the church.
I want to play something forboth of you, and then I want us
to, on the other side of it,come back and discuss a little
(08:21):
bit about this.
Speaker 5 (08:22):
Cool, this is why music in church should be put
through the filter of atheological mind.
Watch this.
Because most Christians'theology comes from music.
They know way more songs thanthey know scripture.
I mean, I know I'm right aboutit.
You say, quote a scripture theycan't Give me a song.
(08:43):
There ain't no song.
So if the theology of the songis off, they're believing God to
perform something he neverpromised.
Speaker 1 (08:51):
All right, guys, that's a biggie Theology and
music, that's right, and thatmost people know their theology
by the songs they sing on Sunday.
Sorry, pastor Ben, but it's thetruth.
It's the truth, yeah, which issad.
Yeah, it's sad.
So, parker, as a worship leader, I'll let you start and kind of
give your take on that.
Speaker 2 (09:11):
I actually call certain phrases and people's
approach, especially in thechurch, country music,
christianity.
Now that I just use thatbecause country music is
sometimes the worst.
You know well, we lost Papawand he's up wings flying around.
You know all this crazy stuff.
Well, a lot of that came frommusic where people just threw in
(09:32):
random stuff.
But the church is even worsebecause we sometimes will use
what?
Oh, it's a great phrase, oh,that phrase works for that verse
, oh, that's great, but is ittheologically sound?
And Ben and I talk about this ona regular basis, the music.
We will be held as accountableif we are singing and leading
unbiblical, poor, theologicallybased songs.
(09:56):
As the pastor that gets upthere and preaches poor theology
, I would agree, mainly becauseof who we are as humans and what
music does.
Music can get stuck in yourhead.
I'll have a song stuck in myhead for days and I just can't
get it out of my head.
Well, that's the power of theinstrument of music, the tool of
music.
(10:16):
But then when you put badtheology in there, it gets
ingrained.
You know, god will never giveyou more than you can, and all
these phrases he wants me to berich, right, right and you can,
and all these phrases, me to berich, right, right, no, he does,
he does not.
And guess what?
I know of people that have hadmore on them than they
physically can bear.
So all of these things, allthese little phrases, it is
(10:37):
dangerous, and music can be sodangerous, it can also be the
most incredible.
So that's why, as far as when Igo out on the road, when I
leave my church and go performall over the country, there's a
song that I put in our set andit's in Christ alone.
I believe that that songencompasses the gospel from
start to finish, and there aremany others and a theologically
(10:59):
correct, play Theologicallycorrect and just like Amazing
Grace and I believe in Christalone is the new Amazing grace.
But, point being, I never wantto end a set without having that
song in that set somewhere.
There again, theology can betotally misconstrued because of
a catchphrase or all that ends achorus.
(11:21):
Well, you know so.
So it's crucial and worshipleaders will stand before the
throne and be held accountablefor not just taking the time to
look up Scripture and see isthis sound doctrine?
Speaker 1 (11:35):
Let me say this A lot of music today is very
me-centered.
I've noticed it's like the ah,ah, ah.
Speaker 4 (11:41):
For sure.
Speaker 1 (11:42):
Instead of focusing on who he is.
That's right.
That's one big thing I'venoticed.
The other that's so sad is thatwe are so biblically illiterate
that we don't even know thatit's bad theology, Right?
So you see churches acrossAmerica with hands raised,
singing at the top of theirlungs a sentence or two or three
.
That is totally not in God'sword and that's scary.
Speaker 2 (12:03):
Yeah, oh, it is, it is and it's rampant, and I
believe that the music industryas a whole is to blame for it
and the commercialism of themusic.
I am a professional musician.
I have traveled for now 20years.
I've had songs all over radio,like Joy FM.
It's a wonderful tool, but letme tell you, just like
everything else, satan can get afooth and he can confuse.
(12:27):
The enemy can confuse peopleand they think, oh, we're fine,
well, it's allowing people toworship.
So what's the harm?
The harm is that it gets stuckand then, all of a sudden,
they've adopted this poortheology as fact.
It ain't got nothing to do withScripture.
Speaker 1 (12:45):
Got to do better.
That's right.
I'm going to move to you, ben,as a pastor.
What do you feel about that andhow do you see it in the church
?
Just let me know your thoughts,what you feel.
Speaker 4 (12:56):
Well, I'm not a musician and I'm not the wisest
person in the world, but as apastor, when I look at it, I
think that just because itmentions God doesn't mean it's
gospel, and people do buildtheir theology from what they
sing.
That's why it's so importantthat we sing things that are
accurate about God.
Scripture says my people perishfor a lack of knowledge.
The church is suffering becausethe church doesn't even know
(13:19):
who God is.
We have a tool in music.
Have you ever thought about howunnecessary the gift of music is
, and what I mean by that is?
It's not something that God hadto give us.
It's not necessary for life.
It's something that God gave usfor pleasure, for enjoyment.
It's something God gave us tobe able to, in turn, use to
worship, to express our worshipto him.
But it's something God gave us,if you want to put it this way,
(13:41):
to catechize our people.
We can teach our peopledoctrine and they will remember
the song that we sung on Sundayway longer than they will the
sermon I preached on Sunday.
I get up in the morning and Ifind myself singing my toddler's
songs that he watches on TV thenight before.
A tune gets in your head and itsticks there and I find myself
singing things that are that arejust absolutely ridiculous.
Speaker 1 (14:02):
Would you like to share one with us?
Speaker 2 (14:05):
The recent one.
Speaker 5 (14:06):
Skiddy, skiddy, skiddy how about that for you.
Speaker 2 (14:09):
There you are.
The rest of the day.
Speaker 4 (14:10):
The recent one is I'm an excavator, but no.
So these things get in ourminds.
We have an opportunity to teach.
I find myself all through theweek singing whatever we sang on
Sunday.
So I want to make sure thatwhat we're singing on Sunday,
you want it to be singable, youwant it to be memorable that
what we're singing on Sunday,you want it to be singable.
You want it to be memorable,right, but you want it to be
(14:32):
accurate about who God is,because eternity is a long time.
And how many people are singingsongs about God and songs about
angels and they're confidentthat they're going to spend
eternity in heaven with God, butthey've never trusted Christ.
It's like you mentioned, thecountry Christianity.
So music is both so profitableand so dangerous at the same
time it is.
And so music is both soprofitable and so dangerous at
the same time it is.
And Satan himself is a musician, the chief musician of heaven,
that's right.
He's the chief musician ofheaven.
(14:53):
The most beautiful Lucifer isthe most beautiful creature that
God ever created.
So Satan will use beauty andsound to deceive people.
I think music, even outside therealm of worship.
Satan is using music more todestroy culture, to destroy
families than he just about isanything music shapes our
culture, so our music alsoshapes our churches.
(15:14):
Therefore, our music should besound theology, sound about who
god is, sound about what god hasdone right.
More of our songs should be himfocused and less I focus.
Yeah, if your songs are sayingthings about us over and over
and over, I'm not saying that'swrong, but I would be really
cautious as to what is itteaching me about God?
Or is it teaching me that Godis just there to cash my checks?
(15:36):
Yes, and so Paul said inEphesians to encourage one
another with psalms, hymns andspiritual songs.
Make a melody in your hearts.
I think one of the things wecould do to remedy this is sing
more scripture.
The average church doesn't makeit a practice of singing the
songs or taking and actuallyincorporating scripture into the
songs.
(15:56):
You can teach people tomemorize scripture by teaching
them scripture in songs, andthat's a big movement.
Today, a lot more are pushingtowards using scripture in songs
.
That's a wonderful thing.
Speaker 1 (16:07):
I think the Gettys are a great example of that For
sure.
I just love and, Ben, you kindof got me on them years ago.
I just think they have got itgoing on when it comes to good.
First of all, good, solidtheological lyrics, Beautiful
melodies.
Some of the melodies of theirsongs are just haunting,
Hauntingly beautiful, if thatmakes sense, and so I think I
(16:30):
would love to see the church getback to more of the you could
call it contemporary hymns, likeIn Christ Alone, how Deep the
Father's Love.
I would love to see more ofthat type music than a phrase
sung 123 times if that makessense For sure.
You know, in today's time thereare many songwriters that are
(16:52):
able to do just that kind ofwhat we call contemporary hymns,
and one of those that I love sovery much are the Gettys.
So, ben, what do you thinkabout them?
Because I know that when Ilisten to them, it's just
something that their music doesto my heart.
Speaker 4 (17:08):
The Gettys said that their purpose was to write
beautiful songs, singable songsthat were also sacred, that were
also scripturally sound.
That's their mission is towrite songs that the church can
sing, that teach a sounddoctrine also.
Speaker 1 (17:25):
And that's another big part, parker, and you can
weigh in on this too.
One thing I found in the churchwith a lot of the newer music
it's not singable for theaverage person.
Speaker 2 (17:37):
That is not a musician.
Well, and I think a lot of thatgoes back to again the problem
with commercial music.
The same melodies have beenhappening since the 20s, since
the radio was introduced.
In fact, I had a prominent,very successful songwriter in
Nashville tell me one time we'rejust recycling the same songs
(17:57):
over and over.
We just have to change themelody lines so we don't get
sued for whatever.
So it is so commercial in thesense and that's why they have
to change those melody lines.
In fact, I do believe that ifyou were to start backwards,
start with Scripture first andthen move to a melody that fits,
and you know, hey, it mightsound like something that
(18:20):
happened in the 80s.
That's all right, it's, it's.
You know, don't, don't worry somuch about the commercialism.
Now, you don't want to.
On the artistry side, you don'twant to take away from somebody
that you know when somebody hascreatively really worked hard
to write a song.
But at the same time, what isgospel music?
What is Christian music?
What is, what is this that weare trying to achieve?
(18:42):
Are we trying to make a bookand make a hit, or are we trying
to lead in worship of thatbackground?
But I went to the GettysConference in Nashville oh, you
did.
And City of Light was there andI went to their seminar on
songwriting, hymn writing.
They said it takes them nine to13 months to write one song.
Wow, because they sit and theythink through, they pray over
(19:05):
every single verse and chorusthat's made One song Only a Holy
God that they sing.
Just back to what you said,instead of this, me, me, me, god
and me, and it's more of whoGod is and how holy he is, the
creator of the universe, theLord Almighty.
I do believe that there is ashift.
We're not talking about senioradults writing these modern
(19:27):
hymns.
So there is a shift, and I dobelieve that we are.
So there is a shift and I dobelieve that we are.
I strongly believe we'regetting back to more singing
about who God is, scripturallybased, the magnificent God that
we serve as opposed and there'snothing wrong even with talking
about in maybe a concert settingor whatever, about your
relationship with God and whathe has done in your life.
(19:49):
That's great, but when it comesto worship, I do believe
worshiping God and who he is inhis truest form is what we're
called to do.
Speaker 1 (19:57):
Well, guys, this has been a fantastic discussion.
I hope it's helped youngpastors, young worship leaders,
and made us all think, too,about what we're singing in
church and is it really linedwith scripture, and I think this
is just a good check in for allof us.
And so thank you for being hereand we hope you've enjoyed this
episode of Quirks, bumps,bruises.
Speaker 3 (20:18):
Thanks for listening to the Quirks Bumps Bruises
podcast with Candy and Melody.
If you enjoyed the show, pleasetake a moment to subscribe,
rate and share the podcast.
You can learn more at joyfmorg.
Hi, I'm Melody and I'm Candy, and you're listening
to Quirks, bumps and Bruises.
On this episode of Quirks,bumps and Bruises, we sit down
with Parker Webb and Pastor BenWebb and talk about topics that
I think are very important, andI think you're going to enjoy
hearing what they have to saygiving some advice to young
(00:20):
pastors and worship leaders, aswell as the importance of music
and theology and the songs thatwe sing while we worship.
But, as you know, candy is outon maternity leave and I like
having people in here with mebecause I get bored very easy.
So I've asked the one and onlyParker Webb, who, by the way,
co-hosted with me last week.
I loved it.
Thank you for having me back.
(00:41):
Well, you're welcome.
You're welcome, we'll have youback again.
And then my sweet, adorable,kind, loving son-in-law you
forgot humble listen, brother.
Speaker 2 (00:52):
You're gonna have to ping pong that one back to her
some point this morning.
Speaker 1 (00:55):
I can tell you pastor ben webb, pastor of eden
baptist church in east bend,north carolina, and then parker
you are worship leader at greenstreet that's right church in
high point, north car, carolinaand so we were talking kind of
off the air and I said you know,this is something good to talk
about.
So I said let's hold thatconversation and then let's talk
about this.
So the question is this and Iwill start with you, ben, as a
(01:17):
pastor if you could give onepiece of advice for a new pastor
coming up they come to you andthey're just starting, it's
their first church what wouldthat piece of advice be?
Speaker 4 (01:28):
First piece of advice every guy that I'm involved in
ordaining, I give them this onepiece of advice, and that's just
be yourself.
Don't try to be anybody else.
God didn't make you to beanybody else, and if God's
called you to a church, thenGod's called you, not someone
else.
And if you're emulating theirsuccess, you're actually going
to do harm to the church,because God called you to be
there, not them.
If he'd have wanted someoneelse there, he'd have sent them
(01:49):
there.
So be yourself, be what Godmade you.
Melody, you know this.
I'm a 75-year-old man stuck ina 35-year-old man's body.
Speaker 1 (01:57):
You kind of are, but so is.
Speaker 2 (01:58):
Parker no, listen, I'm old soul.
Speaker 1 (02:02):
I think that's why you two connect so well.
I know, I know.
Speaker 4 (02:05):
But the older I get, the more comfortable.
I am with that For sure.
I'm okay being me.
I'm the only 36-year-old I knowthat would rather be wearing a
suit and tie and cuff linksFrench cuff than whatever is
popular right now.
But the older I get, the morecomfortable.
I am with that For sure, justbeing myself.
Speaker 1 (02:20):
And, and you're going to stick with it, I'm going to,
so just be yourself.
Speaker 4 (02:22):
Don't try to emulate anyone else.
Speaker 1 (02:24):
You can give too, if you'd like.
Speaker 4 (02:25):
Okay, the second piece of advice I'd give a young
pastor is get to know yoursheep, and by that I mean get to
know what they struggle with,what they're dealing with.
But if you can learn early onin ministry to recognize the
difference between mental healthissues and spiritual issues, it
will save you a lot of griefand a lot of time For sure.
(02:45):
And there are ways to learn torecognize the differences,
because people with mentalhealth issues need help they
genuinely need help, but theydon't need a scripture and a pat
on the back and a prayer totell them to just do better.
And so you're going to gothrough the same patterns over
and over and over with thosepeople and never actually see
any progress.
So if you can learn to spot thedifference between something
(03:09):
that's a mental health issue andsomething that's actually a
spiritual issue, it will saveyou so much time and make your
ministry so much more productive.
Speaker 1 (03:13):
You know, it's kind of like teachers in school you
have the kids that tend tosometimes disrupt, and they're
labeled that as a disruptor,when in actuality they may have
ADD or just some situations thatneed some medication or
whatever the case may be.
I think the same in church,some that are maybe dealing with
(03:33):
some mental issues, could,without maybe trying, cause some
issues within the church.
But it's not really about that,it's about this, and so to be
able to recognize that, I thinkis good.
And as a side note, before Iask Parker, I will say that Ben
did get to know the sheep atCrestwood, where I go to church,
and he married her.
Speaker 2 (03:56):
I stay in one step beyond the call of duty, right
there.
Speaker 1 (03:58):
We're going to move on to you, parker, as a worship
leader.
You've got a young,20-something worship leader
coming in, excited, ready to go.
What are you going to tell themas?
Speaker 2 (04:07):
advice Same thing, especially on the music side.
I see guys trying to emulatewhoever their hero is in the
faith, whoever they experiencegrowing up.
Thankfully, our family was onthe road for 40 years and my
example was my dad.
So I saw the perfect example.
(04:28):
My dad was never trying toemulate anybody.
He was being true to who he wasand who God called him to be,
and the Lord blessed it.
And so I would say the same,especially worship leaders.
Now we're talking about anartist on that side, but on the
worship leader side, your job isto lead and to give the
congregation, I would say, thepermission to lead and to join
(04:51):
you in worship.
So when you're getting up thereand they're looking at you and
they think you're trying to belike Gerald Wolfe doing the hymn
, gerald Wolfe leads the hymn,sing like nobody else.
The amazing thing about GeraldWolfe is he has vocal issues
going on right now.
Half the time he's not evensinging, but Gerald is able,
with the help of the Holy Spirit, lead that congregation like
(05:14):
nobody else.
So, ben, you're spot on.
God created you unique.
He called you into that.
Whatever that role is at yourlocal church, be who he created
you to be.
And so so I think it's the samefor pastors and for preachers
and for worship leaders.
Speaker 1 (05:32):
So, Ben, you had something you kind of wanted to
add to all of this discussion.
Speaker 4 (05:35):
Embrace your handicaps Right, the things that
you're weak at Now.
I'm not saying we can't getbetter Right but there are some
things that I just don't have.
That's right that other peopledo.
There are some handicaps that Ihave that others don't have,
but those handicaps may beintentional, Totally.
They may be given by God forspecific reasons.
I think of the Old Testamentjudge I can't remember what's
(05:56):
his name the left-handed judgethat killed Eglon, and it was
because he was left-handed.
Left-handed was considered ahandicap at the time.
Some even thought that you weredemonic if you were left-handed
.
It was his left-handedness thatenabled him to smuggle in a
dagger and take out the king ofMoab.
So your handicaps may actuallybe a gift.
(06:17):
I struggled for so long to askGod for so long God, would you
free me to be able to preachjust off the cuff without a
manuscript?
And it was almost like God didwith Paul where he said, no, I'm
not going to do that.
Now I've realized I want topublish some things in the
future.
I've realized I have stacks ofbooks already written.
They just need to be edited,because I've written three and
(06:38):
four thousand word manuscriptsevery Sunday for the last 10
years.
That's right, and so yourhandicaps may actually be God's
gifts for his glory, so don'trun from them.
Speaker 2 (06:46):
Embrace them For sure .
Well, and that was the case forme at seminary, I had the
biggest struggle that's thekindest way I can say it with
sitting around talking aboutmusic all day long.
I struggled.
In theory it was just a majorstruggle.
Well, I do believe God is usingthat in my life, knowing I
(07:08):
would be a worship pastorsomeday and I can kind of take
all the extra fluff out of thetechnicalities of music and
focus in on what is going toallow our people to worship God,
what songs fit the DNA of ourpeople that causes them to look
upward towards God.
And so you're right, I was ahorrible student, absolutely
(07:28):
horrible student.
In fact.
I had a teacher walk by mysenior year.
I had my cap and gown on and heleaned over as he was walking.
He's like oh, by the way, youdid pass the class so you can
keep on walking up there to the.
I was a horrible student but Godused that, I believe, to help
me stay focused on what I needednow, as a 38-year-old, as a
(07:48):
worship pastor.
So he uses our weaknesses 100%.
Well, you see that all throughthe Bible right Moses and all
the rest of them, that's the onehe uses the most.
Speaker 1 (07:57):
Well, great advice, all right.
You young pastors, you youngworship leaders, you need to
take heed, take advice, and Idon't think that you guys could
have said that any better.
So, very well said.
Let's move on to anotherimportant topic, which is music
in the church.
I want to play something forboth of you, and then I want us
to, on the other side of it,come back and discuss a little
(08:21):
bit about this.
Speaker 5 (08:22):
Cool, this is why music in church should be put
through the filter of atheological mind.
Watch this.
Because most Christians'theology comes from music.
They know way more songs thanthey know scripture.
I mean, I know I'm right aboutit.
You say, quote a scripture theycan't Give me a song.
(08:43):
There ain't no song.
So if the theology of the songis off, they're believing God to
perform something he neverpromised.
Speaker 1 (08:51):
All right, guys, that's a biggie Theology and
music, that's right, and thatmost people know their theology
by the songs they sing on Sunday.
Sorry, pastor Ben, but it's thetruth.
It's the truth, yeah, which issad.
Yeah, it's sad.
So, parker, as a worship leader, I'll let you start and kind of
give your take on that.
Speaker 2 (09:11):
I actually call certain phrases and people's
approach, especially in thechurch, country music,
christianity.
Now that I just use thatbecause country music is
sometimes the worst.
You know well, we lost Papawand he's up wings flying around.
You know all this crazy stuff.
Well, a lot of that came frommusic where people just threw in
(09:32):
random stuff.
But the church is even worsebecause we sometimes will use
what?
Oh, it's a great phrase, oh,that phrase works for that verse
, oh, that's great, but is ittheologically sound?
And Ben and I talk about this ona regular basis, the music.
We will be held as accountableif we are singing and leading
unbiblical, poor, theologicallybased songs.
(09:56):
As the pastor that gets upthere and preaches poor theology
, I would agree, mainly becauseof who we are as humans and what
music does.
Music can get stuck in yourhead.
I'll have a song stuck in myhead for days and I just can't
get it out of my head.
Well, that's the power of theinstrument of music, the tool of
music.
(10:16):
But then when you put badtheology in there, it gets
ingrained.
You know, god will never giveyou more than you can, and all
these phrases he wants me to berich, right, right and you can,
and all these phrases, me to berich, right, right, no, he does,
he does not.
And guess what?
I know of people that have hadmore on them than they
physically can bear.
So all of these things, allthese little phrases, it is
(10:37):
dangerous, and music can be sodangerous, it can also be the
most incredible.
So that's why, as far as when Igo out on the road, when I
leave my church and go performall over the country, there's a
song that I put in our set andit's in Christ alone.
I believe that that songencompasses the gospel from
start to finish, and there aremany others and a theologically
(10:59):
correct, play Theologicallycorrect and just like Amazing
Grace and I believe in Christalone is the new Amazing grace.
But, point being, I never wantto end a set without having that
song in that set somewhere.
There again, theology can betotally misconstrued because of
a catchphrase or all that ends achorus.
(11:21):
Well, you know so.
So it's crucial and worshipleaders will stand before the
throne and be held accountablefor not just taking the time to
look up Scripture and see isthis sound doctrine?
Speaker 1 (11:35):
Let me say this A lot of music today is very
me-centered.
I've noticed it's like the ah,ah, ah.
Speaker 4 (11:41):
For sure.
Speaker 1 (11:42):
Instead of focusing on who he is.
That's right.
That's one big thing I'venoticed.
The other that's so sad is thatwe are so biblically illiterate
that we don't even know thatit's bad theology, Right?
So you see churches acrossAmerica with hands raised,
singing at the top of theirlungs a sentence or two or three
.
That is totally not in God'sword and that's scary.
Speaker 2 (12:03):
Yeah, oh, it is, it is and it's rampant, and I
believe that the music industryas a whole is to blame for it
and the commercialism of themusic.
I am a professional musician.
I have traveled for now 20years.
I've had songs all over radio,like Joy FM.
It's a wonderful tool, but letme tell you, just like
everything else, satan can get afooth and he can confuse.
(12:27):
The enemy can confuse peopleand they think, oh, we're fine,
well, it's allowing people toworship.
So what's the harm?
The harm is that it gets stuckand then, all of a sudden,
they've adopted this poortheology as fact.
It ain't got nothing to do withScripture.
Speaker 1 (12:45):
Got to do better.
That's right.
I'm going to move to you, ben,as a pastor.
What do you feel about that andhow do you see it in the church
?
Just let me know your thoughts,what you feel.
Speaker 4 (12:56):
Well, I'm not a musician and I'm not the wisest
person in the world, but as apastor, when I look at it, I
think that just because itmentions God doesn't mean it's
gospel, and people do buildtheir theology from what they
sing.
That's why it's so importantthat we sing things that are
accurate about God.
Scripture says my people perishfor a lack of knowledge.
The church is suffering becausethe church doesn't even know
(13:19):
who God is.
We have a tool in music.
Have you ever thought about howunnecessary the gift of music is
, and what I mean by that is?
It's not something that God hadto give us.
It's not necessary for life.
It's something that God gave usfor pleasure, for enjoyment.
It's something God gave us tobe able to, in turn, use to
worship, to express our worshipto him.
But it's something God gave us,if you want to put it this way,
(13:41):
to catechize our people.
We can teach our peopledoctrine and they will remember
the song that we sung on Sundayway longer than they will the
sermon I preached on Sunday.
I get up in the morning and Ifind myself singing my toddler's
songs that he watches on TV thenight before.
A tune gets in your head and itsticks there and I find myself
singing things that are that arejust absolutely ridiculous.
Speaker 1 (14:02):
Would you like to share one with us?
Speaker 2 (14:05):
The recent one.
Speaker 5 (14:06):
Skiddy, skiddy, skiddy how about that for you.
Speaker 2 (14:09):
There you are.
The rest of the day.
Speaker 4 (14:10):
The recent one is I'm an excavator, but no.
So these things get in ourminds.
We have an opportunity to teach.
I find myself all through theweek singing whatever we sang on
Sunday.
So I want to make sure thatwhat we're singing on Sunday,
you want it to be singable, youwant it to be memorable that
what we're singing on Sunday,you want it to be singable.
You want it to be memorable,right, but you want it to be
(14:32):
accurate about who God is,because eternity is a long time.
And how many people are singingsongs about God and songs about
angels and they're confidentthat they're going to spend
eternity in heaven with God, butthey've never trusted Christ.
It's like you mentioned, thecountry Christianity.
So music is both so profitableand so dangerous at the same
time it is.
And so music is both soprofitable and so dangerous at
the same time it is.
And Satan himself is a musician, the chief musician of heaven,
that's right.
He's the chief musician ofheaven.
(14:53):
The most beautiful Lucifer isthe most beautiful creature that
God ever created.
So Satan will use beauty andsound to deceive people.
I think music, even outside therealm of worship.
Satan is using music more todestroy culture, to destroy
families than he just about isanything music shapes our
culture, so our music alsoshapes our churches.
(15:14):
Therefore, our music should besound theology, sound about who
god is, sound about what god hasdone right.
More of our songs should be himfocused and less I focus.
Yeah, if your songs are sayingthings about us over and over
and over, I'm not saying that'swrong, but I would be really
cautious as to what is itteaching me about God?
Or is it teaching me that Godis just there to cash my checks?
(15:36):
Yes, and so Paul said inEphesians to encourage one
another with psalms, hymns andspiritual songs.
Make a melody in your hearts.
I think one of the things wecould do to remedy this is sing
more scripture.
The average church doesn't makeit a practice of singing the
songs or taking and actuallyincorporating scripture into the
songs.
(15:56):
You can teach people tomemorize scripture by teaching
them scripture in songs, andthat's a big movement.
Today, a lot more are pushingtowards using scripture in songs
.
That's a wonderful thing.
Speaker 1 (16:07):
I think the Gettys are a great example of that For
sure.
I just love and, Ben, you kindof got me on them years ago.
I just think they have got itgoing on when it comes to good.
First of all, good, solidtheological lyrics, Beautiful
melodies.
Some of the melodies of theirsongs are just haunting,
Hauntingly beautiful, if thatmakes sense, and so I think I
(16:30):
would love to see the church getback to more of the you could
call it contemporary hymns, likeIn Christ Alone, how Deep the
Father's Love.
I would love to see more ofthat type music than a phrase
sung 123 times if that makessense For sure.
You know, in today's time thereare many songwriters that are
(16:52):
able to do just that kind ofwhat we call contemporary hymns,
and one of those that I love sovery much are the Gettys.
So, ben, what do you thinkabout them?
Because I know that when Ilisten to them, it's just
something that their music doesto my heart.
Speaker 4 (17:08):
The Gettys said that their purpose was to write
beautiful songs, singable songsthat were also sacred, that were
also scripturally sound.
That's their mission is towrite songs that the church can
sing, that teach a sounddoctrine also.
Speaker 1 (17:25):
And that's another big part, parker, and you can
weigh in on this too.
One thing I found in the churchwith a lot of the newer music
it's not singable for theaverage person.
Speaker 2 (17:37):
That is not a musician.
Well, and I think a lot of thatgoes back to again the problem
with commercial music.
The same melodies have beenhappening since the 20s, since
the radio was introduced.
In fact, I had a prominent,very successful songwriter in
Nashville tell me one time we'rejust recycling the same songs
(17:57):
over and over.
We just have to change themelody lines so we don't get
sued for whatever.
So it is so commercial in thesense and that's why they have
to change those melody lines.
In fact, I do believe that ifyou were to start backwards,
start with Scripture first andthen move to a melody that fits,
and you know, hey, it mightsound like something that
(18:20):
happened in the 80s.
That's all right, it's, it's.
You know, don't, don't worry somuch about the commercialism.
Now, you don't want to.
On the artistry side, you don'twant to take away from somebody
that you know when somebody hascreatively really worked hard
to write a song.
But at the same time, what isgospel music?
What is Christian music?
What is, what is this that weare trying to achieve?
(18:42):
Are we trying to make a bookand make a hit, or are we trying
to lead in worship of thatbackground?
But I went to the GettysConference in Nashville oh, you
did.
And City of Light was there andI went to their seminar on
songwriting, hymn writing.
They said it takes them nine to13 months to write one song.
Wow, because they sit and theythink through, they pray over
(19:05):
every single verse and chorusthat's made One song Only a Holy
God that they sing.
Just back to what you said,instead of this, me, me, me, god
and me, and it's more of whoGod is and how holy he is, the
creator of the universe, theLord Almighty.
I do believe that there is ashift.
We're not talking about senioradults writing these modern
(19:27):
hymns.
So there is a shift, and I dobelieve that we are.
So there is a shift and I dobelieve that we are.
I strongly believe we'regetting back to more singing
about who God is, scripturallybased, the magnificent God that
we serve as opposed and there'snothing wrong even with talking
about in maybe a concert settingor whatever, about your
relationship with God and whathe has done in your life.
(19:49):
That's great, but when it comesto worship, I do believe
worshiping God and who he is inhis truest form is what we're
called to do.
Speaker 1 (19:57):
Well, guys, this has been a fantastic discussion.
I hope it's helped youngpastors, young worship leaders,
and made us all think, too,about what we're singing in
church and is it really linedwith scripture, and I think this
is just a good check in for allof us.
And so thank you for being hereand we hope you've enjoyed this
episode of Quirks, bumps,bruises.
Speaker 3 (20:18):
Thanks for listening to the Quirks Bumps Bruises
podcast with Candy and Melody.
If you enjoyed the show, pleasetake a moment to subscribe,
rate and share the podcast.
You can learn more at joyfmorg.
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