November 15, 2022 • 24 mins
Have you ever wondered what to say when someone is going through a challenging season? Join Teresa and Brenda as they chat about words that bring hope and healing amid suffering.
Today’s guest is Brenda Seefeldt Amodea (A-moh-day-ah)
Bio: Brenda is a pastor, speaker, wife, and mom to four men with their own brave stories. Brenda has written a helpful book about the people who have helped her carry her pain, I Wish I Could Take Away Your Pain. This book includes a long list of what not to do as well as the many small things to do that matter. She shares other stories about the beauty of her pain at https://www.Bravester.com
Learn more about Radical Abundance at Radical-Abundance.com
Teresa Janzen is your host. She ignites a passion for abundant living through radical service. Teresa is an international speaker, author, and coach of speakers and writers. Her experience in leadership and global ministry drives her to share inspiring stories with wit and insight. Her candid and personable style is sure to capture the heart of any audience.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:03):
Welcome to Radical Abundance.
I'm your host there, Janssen.
Have you ever wonderedwhat to say to someone
who's going throughsomething really difficult?
Well, today's guest is aspecialist in what to say and
maybe even what not to say.
Brenda Sel Ameda is apastor, a speaker, a wife.
Four men who have their ownbrave stories, and she's
(00:27):
written a book called, I WishI Could Take Away Your Pain.
And don't we all feel that way?
Like we wish we could takeaway the pain, but instead we
say something and maybe it'sthe right thing, or maybe
it's not the right thing.
Well, that's what we'regonna talk about today.
Welcome to the show, Brenda.
Thank you.
Yes.
It's all about that thoseawkward moments of your heart
(00:48):
is good, or you wanna escapeone of the two and then
you don't know what to say.
Yeah.
And it's happened to all of us.
Right.
And especially rightnow, here we are in the
midst of the holidays,the season of joy, and.
We know that we're goingto encounter some folks
who are not feeling it.
They're not going through ajoyfilled time, and for a lot
(01:10):
of people this is a hard timeknowing what to say and what not
to say can be really helpful.
So thank you for that.
But first, let me ask you,why did you write this book?
You must have a story.
This book is, it'sa very short book.
It's very easy to read.
Got pictures in it.
But my story is in this book,but it's my stories, one of my
(01:35):
getting my heart smashed andthe decision to get up again.
Those are my brave decisionsto, you know, trust God and
push through and find God again.
But the better part of mystory is the people who were
with me and helped me getup again, and that's who
this book is dedicated to.
This is to the ones who werewith me in my pain, who didn't
(01:59):
give me a platitude, didn't giveme a drive-by prayer, saw me
stuck with me, said words that.
I would say I don't believeare true, or I don't, you know,
I could actually say thosewords too, because I knew they
were safe people and they werewith me in it, and they're
the ones that helped me getup again and just continue
living this life that I have.
(02:20):
So that's the storyof my life, is I keep
making brave decisions.
They're vulnerable, and I gethurt, and then I ask where
God is, and then I find Godagain.
And we want to be the peoplewho are going to point someone
and lead someone to the Lordin the midst of their pain, but
without the platitude becauseit's so easy to say things
like, Oh, God will comfortyou, or God is teaching you
(02:45):
something through this and ormaybe you've sinned, or some
of these types of things.
I think those might not be themost helpful things to say.
Because what you just didin that very moment, and
again, it's this awkwardmoment, and, but what you
just did is you just removedyourself from my pain.
(03:07):
I am living it.
I am.
And I dare tell you.
And then you saysomething like that.
You just tookyourself out of it.
Put, you know, maybea judgment on me or an
assumption on me again.
And I can't findGod in this moment.
I mean, I.
I'm a pastor.
I've been a pastor for 40 years.
(03:27):
This is all I know.
Yet there are moments when painis so great and I just don't
know where God is anymore, andI need to see, I need to see
God again, and that is in you.
But I need you to bewith me in my pain.
I need you, even yourface to be with me in my.
(03:49):
So, but this is what I'velearned is I don't just
share this with everybody.
My story involves prison.
I got, two of the boys Iraised are in prison right now.
And the minute you saythat to most people, their
faces will change, right?
They, and I mean, and I don'tblame them, they don't, Prison's
(04:11):
a part of my life every day.
It's become a very normalpart of my life every day.
For others, you don'ttouch the justice system.
You don't deal with theinjustice of the justice
system, and you don't want to.
Your life is full enough,your life is overflowing.
You're doing all youcan to continue your
life together as it is.
And so if I would just sharethat with you and expect
(04:33):
you to enter in that painwith me, I setting myself
up maybe to be hurt by youbecause maybe you don't
have the capacity for that.
But what I have learnedis to find the people
beforehand who I can sharethis stuff with, and then I
do when it's a safe setting.
(04:54):
And I, you know, and theydo not, they're not afraid
of the awkward, they'renot afraid of, they don't
show it on their face.
And they will ask me thequestions, they'll ask
me the hard questions.
And then when I become veryoverwhelmed and I've lost
my bearings, They will askme, they're really hard
questions, and they'll tellme the things I need to hear
(05:14):
again and again and again.
So I'm kind of hearing twosides of the whole thing.
You know, one side is.
When I have something, ahard story I'm going through
and I'm interacting withpeople who may not respond
in a way that really feedsand nurtures and uplifts me.
How, what can I do about that?
(05:35):
And then the other side iswhen you are the person who
encounters someone who'sstruggling and they hit you
with something that you reallyweren't prepared for, maybe.
You know, you justsaid, How are you today?
And for once they actually toldyou, , you know, so often when
we ask, How are you people don'ttell us how they really are.
But then you get thatperson who tells you and
(05:56):
it's not good and you're,Wow, I didn't expect that.
And you step into areal awkward situation.
So first, let's talk about.
Our side of things when we arewhen we are the ones who are
going through a difficult time.
And you talked about findingthe people that you can talk to.
(06:18):
That's a reallyimportant part of it.
How also can you handleit when someone does say
something that's eitherinsensitive or just not caring?
Is there some self carethat we can pull out of
our pocket in the moment?
I guess vulnerabilityalways puts you up kind
(06:40):
of on the defensive.
You know, you kind of haveyour walls up waiting for
the face to fall or someoneto say something to remove
themself from your pain.
So at that very moment,and you realize, oops, this
might be the wrong person.
He's gotta, yeah, you gottaput the wall up and protect
yourself and say, thisis not the right person.
(07:01):
Important thing I have learnedis cuz I've looked for these
people and I've asked thembeforehand, and if you are gonna
go to this part of friendshipwith me, you gotta know this
part of my life and you've,I'm gonna warn you, heads up.
I got a son coming outta prison.
I'm gonna need a lotof help coming up when
that date happens.
(07:22):
Are you in this with me?
And then, you know, thenI'm not worried about it.
And what that does is whenI'm with other people,
I don't feel the need toshare this part of my life.
I don't need to feel like Ijust had a probation officer
come over to my house.
I just put that outhere on a podcast.
But this is a courseas a safe setting.
I, I wouldn't share that veryoften because most people, and
(07:46):
nor do they need to know about.
But for my people, theyknew he was coming over.
They knew theconversation we had.
And then I got the textand the phone calls later
that said, How'd it go?
You know, Do you guysmake a good plan?
These are the right questions,but they knew, and the rest
of my life is handled, then Ican continue to be me again.
I'm a pastor, I, you know, Idon't, I cannot overshare this
(08:08):
stuff from the pulpit Right.
But I have my people,and that makes it, all
of them more manage.
I'm not seeking affirmation orseeking like, well done Brenda.
I'm, I don't have to have that.
My people do that forme, and that's enough.
And I recognize that need as aperson in ministry leadership
to have that inner circle.
(08:28):
So I'm glad that you're alsosaying everyone really needs
to have that inner circle ofpeople that you can be raw and
vulnerable and talk to, andthat can really help put us in
the p in the position where we.
Have stress and thingsbuilding up inside, and all
of a sudden we're telling theclerk at the grocery store
all about the, you know,whatever's going on in our life.
(08:51):
And she's like, Wow, . Youknow, cuz that can happen.
Exactly.
It.
Well, it does happen forthose people who haven't
prepared themselves forthis and then you're there.
Then you get to that secondpart of your question then we're
the ones saying, What do I do?
You know, do youwant to enter in?
(09:11):
Cause you just got heardsomething that probably wasn't
appropriate for the setting,but the person has been alone
and isolated in that pain.
And then you just said somethingthat sent a flood and you
know, good for you to be evenlistening to your friend, but.
Was this the right time ? Right.
(09:32):
Right.
So I want to hear from you asan expert as to what are some
of the good things to say.
I'll tell, but I'm gonna bevulnerable and tell you some
of the things that I tend tosay, and I hope they're right.
But you're, But.
You tell me because if they'renot, I wanna know so that
I can do the right thing.
So when someone shared somethingwith me I might say something
(09:54):
like, Wow, that sounds reallydifficult, or, I'm so sorry
you're going through that,or something like, like that.
What do you think aboutthose types of responses and
is there something better?
Nope.
I like those.
Cause what both ofthose are saying to me
is, You're with me in.
(10:15):
You just felt the difficulty.
Even if you can't, you know,I've, even if you don't know
what prison is like in mysituation, you just felt the
difficulty enough to staywith me in it, and that's
a very important signal.
Right.
Well, the one thing that I don'tappreciate when I have shared
(10:36):
something hard with someoneis then they immediately tell
me their story, and I feel alittle bit selfish like that,
but I didn't tell you I did.
I wasn't vulnerable withyou so that you could
share your story with me.
I was vulnerablewith you because I.
A need somewhere.
And so I do really try todo, to not do that, even if
(10:59):
their story does remind me ofsomething that happened in my
life because it's not about mebecause Right.
Cuz that story they just toldyou, just this removed yourself
from my pain and their story isresolved it's come to an ending
and they've learned from it.
They found that where Godis in it, you know, God
(11:20):
has become certain again.
And it's resolved, but I'mstill in this unresolved state.
My story says to you that Godis uncertain cuz how could God
allow this to happen to me?
So I'm going to flipthe script and tell you
where God rescued me.
God came throughfor me and he did.
And it's a true story and Ibelieve you're being kind,
(11:43):
but you're not helping meat all cuz you just removed
yourself from my pain andI just need to be heard.
And then I need you to saylike, I understand, or even
if you don't, because my storyI know my story could make
you feel uncertain, couldmake your faith uncertain.
(12:04):
I know my story couldmake you doubt God.
Like how could God letthis happen already?
I know that, which is why Idon't share it very often.
. But if I.
I felt that opportunityto share and then I just
get your story of howyou've resolved it already.
I'm not there yet.
Right.
So you didn't help me.
I mean, I, and I probablywon't even, and I probably
(12:25):
won't even remember yourstory as one, as an example
to help me get through becauseI'm already going, Oh, can't
trust back, back, back.
You know, And it didn't,so it didn't do any, Right.
And the other thing is whensomeone even could minimize
my pain because they've beenthrough something that they
view as even worse, you know?
(12:46):
And yes, you can'tmeasure someone's loss.
One person's againstanother's, you know, we, A
loss is a loss no matter thecause or the loss, right?
It's a loss to that person.
So I can't.
Your situation, Well, that'snot as bad as my situation.
You wouldn't believe what I'mgoing through with my kids.
(13:07):
You know, that definitelydoesn't help because it's
minimizing your pain, right?
If you begin this with,at least you don't have my
child, you're right there.
You just compared itand you just removed
yourself in my pain again.
You know, I learned a reallybig lesson when I was 19
years old from Psalm 18.
(13:28):
It's been my favoritepsalm since this moment.
It has supported me throughevery dark season, every dark
season, but in when I was19 and I found this psalm,
I was dumped by a guy thatwas not good enough for me,
but I was in so much pain,and I'd run into the word of
God, and the psalm became mylifeline for that season of.
(13:50):
A stupid guy who I, you know,don't even find on Facebook
cause I don't care, you know?
But that at that pointin my life, that pain was
severe and that's what'sGod's to be ministered
to by somebody you trust.
And you know, and even backthen, I had people that just
spoke and said, What is the,you know, what, Have you
found this in the Bible?
And that's not often a goodthing to say because the Bible
(14:14):
can be so misinterpreted oryou're already angry at God
for something that happened.
, I mean that.
But at that moment, she ledme to Psalm 18 and I will
never forget that psalm.
And as my pain has exponentiallyincreased over my years I
know that at age 19 the Psalmgave me truth and support
at this age in dealing withwhat I'm dealing with now.
(14:37):
It's the same truth and support.
I've learned it, but I was toldit from somebody when I was 19.
Well, you've said a coupleof things I think are really
significant, especially whendealing with young people
or people who are in adifferent place spiritually
or emotionally or mentallyor all of those things.
People feel things differently,and so thinking back to
(14:59):
that, Relationship when youwere a teenager with your
eyes of a mature woman, youmight be tempting to, to say,
Well, that was not a hugethe, it's not the big event.
I thought it was then, butyou were feeling what you
were feeling and that theywere your feelings then.
And you can't look at someoneelse and say, Oh honey, you
(15:23):
don't even know what pain is.
You know, you've got boatloadsmore coming, , you know,
that's not coming ahead.
Right.
That's not gonna help much.
But I love how you're talkingabout being present with
people, being in the momentwith people, because when you
do that and stay with someonefor a little while, then it
gives you the opportunity tomaybe share that message of
(15:47):
hope from your point of healing.
Because some of us have gonethrough things that God will
use those stories then tobring hope and healing into
the life of someone else.
But you have.
Earn the place in theirlife to be able to share it.
And that comes after youhave sat with them in their
pain for a season at least.
(16:08):
At least for a time.
And you get their permission.
Yes.
Yes.
Me just read something to yououtta my book, one of the pages
just about that I already, Iwoke up in this morning and the
flood of my tragedy is defining.
You tell me who I am,and of course these are
these people, right?
(16:29):
I will only hear youhalf of the time.
Maybe there'll be one thing youwill say and I will repeat it
to myself over and over and overagain, clinging to it because
it must be true because yousaid it to me because it's you
who is telling me the truthand I can hear it and I may
forget it tomorrow, but rightnow, can you tell me it again?
(16:51):
I trust.
Then I wrote on the other sideof this tragedy, Oh, wear a
t-shirt declaring this cuzthen I'll remember it and
I'll remember you forever.
Wow.
Thank you for that.
Tell me a little bitmore about the book.
How can people get it?
Because I like that you saidtoo, that it's a quick read or
(17:13):
short chunks, things that youcan just take bit by bit you.
You're not going to haveto invest a whole lot in a
counseling degree to figureout how to handle people who
are going through trauma orloss or grief or anything.
It's practical, realadvice that people can use.
So how can we get our hands onit?
Thank you.
Well see the book looks likethis and it's this thin.
(17:36):
Wow.
Yeah, that's manageable.
And then it's got, see,it's got doodles in it too.
It just emphasis,it's just good.
So you can get this, you canget the soft cover copy on
my website, brave store.com.
It's brave, s t e r.com becausewhen you order the soft cover,
(17:57):
You get this wonderful cardthat I made to match it, and
this is a card you can giveto that someone, maybe you
don't have the words to say,but you wanna be This person
outside of it says, I wishI could take away your pain.
I also promise to not tell youeverything happens for a reason.
The inside says, I'm sorrythis is happening to you.
(18:19):
I'm not afraid of your pain.
I won't have all of theanswers, but I will be
here for you with coffee.
Am I not perfect wisdom?
We'll find God in thishorrible thing together.
Wow.
So you get this card, or youcan get extras of this card on
my website also for that order.
Otherwise, you can get thisbook in Kindle on Amazon.
(18:40):
Okay.
But it doesn't come withthe card that I think.
Most of your friends wouldlike to receive from you?
I think so, for sure.
I love your website,brave stir.com.
There has to be a story there.
How did you come up with that?
Brave stir.comAgain, 40 years as a
pastor, I worked all thoseyears with teenagers.
(19:01):
You mentioned, you know, ugh,love, love, love, believe
in teenagers, teenagers willbreak your heart, you know?
And I've just have notice.
Over time, just I'm, youknow, sticking with it,
sticking with these teenagers.
Some of my oldest teenagersI've worked with are now
in their fifties and I'mstill in their lives.
I'm still walking throughthis faith with them.
(19:23):
It's not always been easy.
And I just, but this has justbeen brave decision to brave
decision to brave decision.
You get your heart smashed,you go back in with this kid,
and you work and you work andyou trust God for the larger
story because that's who God.
So this is, I recognize thispattern of my life and how I
made my decisions in my life.
(19:43):
Like all of my decisionswhen I read Dr.
Brene Brown's researchabout 15 years ago about
wholeheartedness, and it'sall about being not afraid
of the vulnerability becauseyou're worth walking into the
vulnerability, and it's alwaysthese brave decisions that
define you and make you whole.
(20:03):
And that just describedmy life so well.
And so I used to writejust youth ministry
resources for 25 years.
Then I decided to write moreresources about just what
a brave faith looks like.
And it's full ofthis vulnerability.
It's full of the dayto day brave decisions.
It's full of those momentswhen your, your gut clench.
(20:25):
And you're like, you'retalking to a friend, do I
say something or do I justlisten in this very moment?
And if I listen, you know,then do I say something here?
I mean, it's those tense,those, I call it holy tension.
Like we're in those 10 moments.
But if we stay in them and notexit out of them, not numb out
of them, not divert, whatever,Something holy's gonna happen.
(20:47):
And that's what afaith looks like.
I think that's, this iswhat I've been teaching most
from my whole adult life.
That this is what abrave faith looks like.
And then your life is thisadventure wholehearted, and you
got, you're full of wonderfulstories where God shows up.
I feellike it gives someone else a
little bit of your courage to.
(21:09):
Can carry them throughto the next moment.
It's an affirmation too, thatthere is hope for the future.
Maybe I don't even feelbrave, but I can make the
brave decision or I can becarried on someone else's
bravery for a little while.
So, Brenda, thank you for that.
And I just love all ofthe things that we've
talked about today.
I can't believe our time hasgone so fast, but I wanna
(21:30):
give you an opportunity tosay just one closing thing.
What do we needto hear before you go?
Feel attention in my gut here.
Make a brave decision.
Cause I thought I wasgonna say something,
but I'm gonna change it.
Cuz you mentioned hope,and this is such a part of
this, I mentioned in my bookthat I need, I need hope.
I need to know that hopeis hang on, pain ends, that
(21:53):
there's an end to this.
And my people get to tellme that because they run
with me and then they, youknow, it's just in the book.
Another thing I learned fromBrene Brown that I just wanna
apply in this moment whenyou've trusted God and you've
made that brave decisionand it hasn't turned out
the way you thought it wouldyour son who you raised.
(22:14):
Yeah.
I didn't give birth to my sons.
But I have raised them forover 30 years now, and two
ended up in prison Anyway,that was not my hope when
I took them on, you know.
The ability to make a plan B.
In my hope, my, my plan A wasgot my boys as young teens
fill them with Jesus, fillthem with unconditional love.
(22:34):
They're gonna be just fine.
No . There was a lotthey had to overcome.
A lot of wounding, a lot ofhealing that has just taken.
And so I've been able tocontinue to hope in God's plan
for them because I've seenthrough my own life how God has
showed up every time I've notbeen afraid to trust God for
(22:55):
big things, like, and I wentinto the ministry very young.
I already began with this bigtrust in God that you called me.
I'm a woman.
It's in the early 1980s.
I am trusting in you.
And I've had, you know,I've had men in the church.
Try to dash me and I'mlike still hanging onto
God and hanging onto thiscall making a plan B.
(23:17):
Okay, You don't see my call.
He will see my call.
You know, I'll go here andI'll, you know, and it's
just been one plan B afteranother, after another.
And this comes, and this isagain from science research
pump Renee Brown, becauseI believe I'm worthy of
something good happening tome, even in when I'm in that
smashed heart, overwhelmed.
(23:38):
I don't know whereGod is anymore.
I know cuz of my faith inGod that I'm worthy to have
something good happen to me andI have got the tenaciousness
inside me to make a plan.
B, I don't offloadmy hope to God.
Hope really comes down to thebrave decisions we make to say,
I am sticking with you, God, youshowed up for me when I was 19
(24:01):
years old when he gave me Psalm18 showed up for me at this
point and this point and this.
I have hope right now.
I don't see you, but Istill have hope and I have
learned, and I'm beingreminded from my people.
Hang on.
Pain endswell, Brenda, you are a woman,
I can tell, has a lot to offer.
(24:23):
I wish we even could gointo some of that more
because there's a lot there.
I'll have to have you backon Radical abundance for.
I'll have to wish you aradically abundant day.
Thank you.
I will come back.
Thank you.
Great.
Welcome to Radical Abundance.
I'm your host there, Janssen.
Have you ever wonderedwhat to say to someone
who's going throughsomething really difficult?
Well, today's guest is aspecialist in what to say and
maybe even what not to say.
Brenda Sel Ameda is apastor, a speaker, a wife.
Four men who have their ownbrave stories, and she's
(00:27):
written a book called, I WishI Could Take Away Your Pain.
And don't we all feel that way?
Like we wish we could takeaway the pain, but instead we
say something and maybe it'sthe right thing, or maybe
it's not the right thing.
Well, that's what we'regonna talk about today.
Welcome to the show, Brenda.
Thank you.
Yes.
It's all about that thoseawkward moments of your heart
(00:48):
is good, or you wanna escapeone of the two and then
you don't know what to say.
Yeah.
And it's happened to all of us.
Right.
And especially rightnow, here we are in the
midst of the holidays,the season of joy, and.
We know that we're goingto encounter some folks
who are not feeling it.
They're not going through ajoyfilled time, and for a lot
(01:10):
of people this is a hard timeknowing what to say and what not
to say can be really helpful.
So thank you for that.
But first, let me ask you,why did you write this book?
You must have a story.
This book is, it'sa very short book.
It's very easy to read.
Got pictures in it.
But my story is in this book,but it's my stories, one of my
(01:35):
getting my heart smashed andthe decision to get up again.
Those are my brave decisionsto, you know, trust God and
push through and find God again.
But the better part of mystory is the people who were
with me and helped me getup again, and that's who
this book is dedicated to.
This is to the ones who werewith me in my pain, who didn't
(01:59):
give me a platitude, didn't giveme a drive-by prayer, saw me
stuck with me, said words that.
I would say I don't believeare true, or I don't, you know,
I could actually say thosewords too, because I knew they
were safe people and they werewith me in it, and they're
the ones that helped me getup again and just continue
living this life that I have.
(02:20):
So that's the storyof my life, is I keep
making brave decisions.
They're vulnerable, and I gethurt, and then I ask where
God is, and then I find Godagain.
And we want to be the peoplewho are going to point someone
and lead someone to the Lordin the midst of their pain, but
without the platitude becauseit's so easy to say things
like, Oh, God will comfortyou, or God is teaching you
(02:45):
something through this and ormaybe you've sinned, or some
of these types of things.
I think those might not be themost helpful things to say.
Because what you just didin that very moment, and
again, it's this awkwardmoment, and, but what you
just did is you just removedyourself from my pain.
(03:07):
I am living it.
I am.
And I dare tell you.
And then you saysomething like that.
You just tookyourself out of it.
Put, you know, maybea judgment on me or an
assumption on me again.
And I can't findGod in this moment.
I mean, I.
I'm a pastor.
I've been a pastor for 40 years.
(03:27):
This is all I know.
Yet there are moments when painis so great and I just don't
know where God is anymore, andI need to see, I need to see
God again, and that is in you.
But I need you to bewith me in my pain.
I need you, even yourface to be with me in my.
(03:49):
So, but this is what I'velearned is I don't just
share this with everybody.
My story involves prison.
I got, two of the boys Iraised are in prison right now.
And the minute you saythat to most people, their
faces will change, right?
They, and I mean, and I don'tblame them, they don't, Prison's
(04:11):
a part of my life every day.
It's become a very normalpart of my life every day.
For others, you don'ttouch the justice system.
You don't deal with theinjustice of the justice
system, and you don't want to.
Your life is full enough,your life is overflowing.
You're doing all youcan to continue your
life together as it is.
And so if I would just sharethat with you and expect
(04:33):
you to enter in that painwith me, I setting myself
up maybe to be hurt by youbecause maybe you don't
have the capacity for that.
But what I have learnedis to find the people
beforehand who I can sharethis stuff with, and then I
do when it's a safe setting.
(04:54):
And I, you know, and theydo not, they're not afraid
of the awkward, they'renot afraid of, they don't
show it on their face.
And they will ask me thequestions, they'll ask
me the hard questions.
And then when I become veryoverwhelmed and I've lost
my bearings, They will askme, they're really hard
questions, and they'll tellme the things I need to hear
(05:14):
again and again and again.
So I'm kind of hearing twosides of the whole thing.
You know, one side is.
When I have something, ahard story I'm going through
and I'm interacting withpeople who may not respond
in a way that really feedsand nurtures and uplifts me.
How, what can I do about that?
(05:35):
And then the other side iswhen you are the person who
encounters someone who'sstruggling and they hit you
with something that you reallyweren't prepared for, maybe.
You know, you justsaid, How are you today?
And for once they actually toldyou, , you know, so often when
we ask, How are you people don'ttell us how they really are.
But then you get thatperson who tells you and
(05:56):
it's not good and you're,Wow, I didn't expect that.
And you step into areal awkward situation.
So first, let's talk about.
Our side of things when we arewhen we are the ones who are
going through a difficult time.
And you talked about findingthe people that you can talk to.
(06:18):
That's a reallyimportant part of it.
How also can you handleit when someone does say
something that's eitherinsensitive or just not caring?
Is there some self carethat we can pull out of
our pocket in the moment?
I guess vulnerabilityalways puts you up kind
(06:40):
of on the defensive.
You know, you kind of haveyour walls up waiting for
the face to fall or someoneto say something to remove
themself from your pain.
So at that very moment,and you realize, oops, this
might be the wrong person.
He's gotta, yeah, you gottaput the wall up and protect
yourself and say, thisis not the right person.
(07:01):
Important thing I have learnedis cuz I've looked for these
people and I've asked thembeforehand, and if you are gonna
go to this part of friendshipwith me, you gotta know this
part of my life and you've,I'm gonna warn you, heads up.
I got a son coming outta prison.
I'm gonna need a lotof help coming up when
that date happens.
(07:22):
Are you in this with me?
And then, you know, thenI'm not worried about it.
And what that does is whenI'm with other people,
I don't feel the need toshare this part of my life.
I don't need to feel like Ijust had a probation officer
come over to my house.
I just put that outhere on a podcast.
But this is a courseas a safe setting.
I, I wouldn't share that veryoften because most people, and
(07:46):
nor do they need to know about.
But for my people, theyknew he was coming over.
They knew theconversation we had.
And then I got the textand the phone calls later
that said, How'd it go?
You know, Do you guysmake a good plan?
These are the right questions,but they knew, and the rest
of my life is handled, then Ican continue to be me again.
I'm a pastor, I, you know, Idon't, I cannot overshare this
(08:08):
stuff from the pulpit Right.
But I have my people,and that makes it, all
of them more manage.
I'm not seeking affirmation orseeking like, well done Brenda.
I'm, I don't have to have that.
My people do that forme, and that's enough.
And I recognize that need as aperson in ministry leadership
to have that inner circle.
(08:28):
So I'm glad that you're alsosaying everyone really needs
to have that inner circle ofpeople that you can be raw and
vulnerable and talk to, andthat can really help put us in
the p in the position where we.
Have stress and thingsbuilding up inside, and all
of a sudden we're telling theclerk at the grocery store
all about the, you know,whatever's going on in our life.
(08:51):
And she's like, Wow, . Youknow, cuz that can happen.
Exactly.
It.
Well, it does happen forthose people who haven't
prepared themselves forthis and then you're there.
Then you get to that secondpart of your question then we're
the ones saying, What do I do?
You know, do youwant to enter in?
(09:11):
Cause you just got heardsomething that probably wasn't
appropriate for the setting,but the person has been alone
and isolated in that pain.
And then you just said somethingthat sent a flood and you
know, good for you to be evenlistening to your friend, but.
Was this the right time ? Right.
(09:32):
Right.
So I want to hear from you asan expert as to what are some
of the good things to say.
I'll tell, but I'm gonna bevulnerable and tell you some
of the things that I tend tosay, and I hope they're right.
But you're, But.
You tell me because if they'renot, I wanna know so that
I can do the right thing.
So when someone shared somethingwith me I might say something
(09:54):
like, Wow, that sounds reallydifficult, or, I'm so sorry
you're going through that,or something like, like that.
What do you think aboutthose types of responses and
is there something better?
Nope.
I like those.
Cause what both ofthose are saying to me
is, You're with me in.
(10:15):
You just felt the difficulty.
Even if you can't, you know,I've, even if you don't know
what prison is like in mysituation, you just felt the
difficulty enough to staywith me in it, and that's
a very important signal.
Right.
Well, the one thing that I don'tappreciate when I have shared
(10:36):
something hard with someoneis then they immediately tell
me their story, and I feel alittle bit selfish like that,
but I didn't tell you I did.
I wasn't vulnerable withyou so that you could
share your story with me.
I was vulnerablewith you because I.
A need somewhere.
And so I do really try todo, to not do that, even if
(10:59):
their story does remind me ofsomething that happened in my
life because it's not about mebecause Right.
Cuz that story they just toldyou, just this removed yourself
from my pain and their story isresolved it's come to an ending
and they've learned from it.
They found that where Godis in it, you know, God
(11:20):
has become certain again.
And it's resolved, but I'mstill in this unresolved state.
My story says to you that Godis uncertain cuz how could God
allow this to happen to me?
So I'm going to flipthe script and tell you
where God rescued me.
God came throughfor me and he did.
And it's a true story and Ibelieve you're being kind,
(11:43):
but you're not helping meat all cuz you just removed
yourself from my pain andI just need to be heard.
And then I need you to saylike, I understand, or even
if you don't, because my storyI know my story could make
you feel uncertain, couldmake your faith uncertain.
(12:04):
I know my story couldmake you doubt God.
Like how could God letthis happen already?
I know that, which is why Idon't share it very often.
. But if I.
I felt that opportunityto share and then I just
get your story of howyou've resolved it already.
I'm not there yet.
Right.
So you didn't help me.
I mean, I, and I probablywon't even, and I probably
(12:25):
won't even remember yourstory as one, as an example
to help me get through becauseI'm already going, Oh, can't
trust back, back, back.
You know, And it didn't,so it didn't do any, Right.
And the other thing is whensomeone even could minimize
my pain because they've beenthrough something that they
view as even worse, you know?
(12:46):
And yes, you can'tmeasure someone's loss.
One person's againstanother's, you know, we, A
loss is a loss no matter thecause or the loss, right?
It's a loss to that person.
So I can't.
Your situation, Well, that'snot as bad as my situation.
You wouldn't believe what I'mgoing through with my kids.
(13:07):
You know, that definitelydoesn't help because it's
minimizing your pain, right?
If you begin this with,at least you don't have my
child, you're right there.
You just compared itand you just removed
yourself in my pain again.
You know, I learned a reallybig lesson when I was 19
years old from Psalm 18.
(13:28):
It's been my favoritepsalm since this moment.
It has supported me throughevery dark season, every dark
season, but in when I was19 and I found this psalm,
I was dumped by a guy thatwas not good enough for me,
but I was in so much pain,and I'd run into the word of
God, and the psalm became mylifeline for that season of.
(13:50):
A stupid guy who I, you know,don't even find on Facebook
cause I don't care, you know?
But that at that pointin my life, that pain was
severe and that's what'sGod's to be ministered
to by somebody you trust.
And you know, and even backthen, I had people that just
spoke and said, What is the,you know, what, Have you
found this in the Bible?
And that's not often a goodthing to say because the Bible
(14:14):
can be so misinterpreted oryou're already angry at God
for something that happened.
, I mean that.
But at that moment, she ledme to Psalm 18 and I will
never forget that psalm.
And as my pain has exponentiallyincreased over my years I
know that at age 19 the Psalmgave me truth and support
at this age in dealing withwhat I'm dealing with now.
(14:37):
It's the same truth and support.
I've learned it, but I was toldit from somebody when I was 19.
Well, you've said a coupleof things I think are really
significant, especially whendealing with young people
or people who are in adifferent place spiritually
or emotionally or mentallyor all of those things.
People feel things differently,and so thinking back to
(14:59):
that, Relationship when youwere a teenager with your
eyes of a mature woman, youmight be tempting to, to say,
Well, that was not a hugethe, it's not the big event.
I thought it was then, butyou were feeling what you
were feeling and that theywere your feelings then.
And you can't look at someoneelse and say, Oh honey, you
(15:23):
don't even know what pain is.
You know, you've got boatloadsmore coming, , you know,
that's not coming ahead.
Right.
That's not gonna help much.
But I love how you're talkingabout being present with
people, being in the momentwith people, because when you
do that and stay with someonefor a little while, then it
gives you the opportunity tomaybe share that message of
(15:47):
hope from your point of healing.
Because some of us have gonethrough things that God will
use those stories then tobring hope and healing into
the life of someone else.
But you have.
Earn the place in theirlife to be able to share it.
And that comes after youhave sat with them in their
pain for a season at least.
(16:08):
At least for a time.
And you get their permission.
Yes.
Yes.
Me just read something to yououtta my book, one of the pages
just about that I already, Iwoke up in this morning and the
flood of my tragedy is defining.
You tell me who I am,and of course these are
these people, right?
(16:29):
I will only hear youhalf of the time.
Maybe there'll be one thing youwill say and I will repeat it
to myself over and over and overagain, clinging to it because
it must be true because yousaid it to me because it's you
who is telling me the truthand I can hear it and I may
forget it tomorrow, but rightnow, can you tell me it again?
(16:51):
I trust.
Then I wrote on the other sideof this tragedy, Oh, wear a
t-shirt declaring this cuzthen I'll remember it and
I'll remember you forever.
Wow.
Thank you for that.
Tell me a little bitmore about the book.
How can people get it?
Because I like that you saidtoo, that it's a quick read or
(17:13):
short chunks, things that youcan just take bit by bit you.
You're not going to haveto invest a whole lot in a
counseling degree to figureout how to handle people who
are going through trauma orloss or grief or anything.
It's practical, realadvice that people can use.
So how can we get our hands onit?
Thank you.
Well see the book looks likethis and it's this thin.
(17:36):
Wow.
Yeah, that's manageable.
And then it's got, see,it's got doodles in it too.
It just emphasis,it's just good.
So you can get this, you canget the soft cover copy on
my website, brave store.com.
It's brave, s t e r.com becausewhen you order the soft cover,
(17:57):
You get this wonderful cardthat I made to match it, and
this is a card you can giveto that someone, maybe you
don't have the words to say,but you wanna be This person
outside of it says, I wishI could take away your pain.
I also promise to not tell youeverything happens for a reason.
The inside says, I'm sorrythis is happening to you.
(18:19):
I'm not afraid of your pain.
I won't have all of theanswers, but I will be
here for you with coffee.
Am I not perfect wisdom?
We'll find God in thishorrible thing together.
Wow.
So you get this card, or youcan get extras of this card on
my website also for that order.
Otherwise, you can get thisbook in Kindle on Amazon.
(18:40):
Okay.
But it doesn't come withthe card that I think.
Most of your friends wouldlike to receive from you?
I think so, for sure.
I love your website,brave stir.com.
There has to be a story there.
How did you come up with that?
Brave stir.comAgain, 40 years as a
pastor, I worked all thoseyears with teenagers.
(19:01):
You mentioned, you know, ugh,love, love, love, believe
in teenagers, teenagers willbreak your heart, you know?
And I've just have notice.
Over time, just I'm, youknow, sticking with it,
sticking with these teenagers.
Some of my oldest teenagersI've worked with are now
in their fifties and I'mstill in their lives.
I'm still walking throughthis faith with them.
(19:23):
It's not always been easy.
And I just, but this has justbeen brave decision to brave
decision to brave decision.
You get your heart smashed,you go back in with this kid,
and you work and you work andyou trust God for the larger
story because that's who God.
So this is, I recognize thispattern of my life and how I
made my decisions in my life.
(19:43):
Like all of my decisionswhen I read Dr.
Brene Brown's researchabout 15 years ago about
wholeheartedness, and it'sall about being not afraid
of the vulnerability becauseyou're worth walking into the
vulnerability, and it's alwaysthese brave decisions that
define you and make you whole.
(20:03):
And that just describedmy life so well.
And so I used to writejust youth ministry
resources for 25 years.
Then I decided to write moreresources about just what
a brave faith looks like.
And it's full ofthis vulnerability.
It's full of the dayto day brave decisions.
It's full of those momentswhen your, your gut clench.
(20:25):
And you're like, you'retalking to a friend, do I
say something or do I justlisten in this very moment?
And if I listen, you know,then do I say something here?
I mean, it's those tense,those, I call it holy tension.
Like we're in those 10 moments.
But if we stay in them and notexit out of them, not numb out
of them, not divert, whatever,Something holy's gonna happen.
(20:47):
And that's what afaith looks like.
I think that's, this iswhat I've been teaching most
from my whole adult life.
That this is what abrave faith looks like.
And then your life is thisadventure wholehearted, and you
got, you're full of wonderfulstories where God shows up.
I feellike it gives someone else a
little bit of your courage to.
(21:09):
Can carry them throughto the next moment.
It's an affirmation too, thatthere is hope for the future.
Maybe I don't even feelbrave, but I can make the
brave decision or I can becarried on someone else's
bravery for a little while.
So, Brenda, thank you for that.
And I just love all ofthe things that we've
talked about today.
I can't believe our time hasgone so fast, but I wanna
(21:30):
give you an opportunity tosay just one closing thing.
What do we needto hear before you go?
Feel attention in my gut here.
Make a brave decision.
Cause I thought I wasgonna say something,
but I'm gonna change it.
Cuz you mentioned hope,and this is such a part of
this, I mentioned in my bookthat I need, I need hope.
I need to know that hopeis hang on, pain ends, that
(21:53):
there's an end to this.
And my people get to tellme that because they run
with me and then they, youknow, it's just in the book.
Another thing I learned fromBrene Brown that I just wanna
apply in this moment whenyou've trusted God and you've
made that brave decisionand it hasn't turned out
the way you thought it wouldyour son who you raised.
(22:14):
Yeah.
I didn't give birth to my sons.
But I have raised them forover 30 years now, and two
ended up in prison Anyway,that was not my hope when
I took them on, you know.
The ability to make a plan B.
In my hope, my, my plan A wasgot my boys as young teens
fill them with Jesus, fillthem with unconditional love.
(22:34):
They're gonna be just fine.
No . There was a lotthey had to overcome.
A lot of wounding, a lot ofhealing that has just taken.
And so I've been able tocontinue to hope in God's plan
for them because I've seenthrough my own life how God has
showed up every time I've notbeen afraid to trust God for
(22:55):
big things, like, and I wentinto the ministry very young.
I already began with this bigtrust in God that you called me.
I'm a woman.
It's in the early 1980s.
I am trusting in you.
And I've had, you know,I've had men in the church.
Try to dash me and I'mlike still hanging onto
God and hanging onto thiscall making a plan B.
(23:17):
Okay, You don't see my call.
He will see my call.
You know, I'll go here andI'll, you know, and it's
just been one plan B afteranother, after another.
And this comes, and this isagain from science research
pump Renee Brown, becauseI believe I'm worthy of
something good happening tome, even in when I'm in that
smashed heart, overwhelmed.
(23:38):
I don't know whereGod is anymore.
I know cuz of my faith inGod that I'm worthy to have
something good happen to me andI have got the tenaciousness
inside me to make a plan.
B, I don't offloadmy hope to God.
Hope really comes down to thebrave decisions we make to say,
I am sticking with you, God, youshowed up for me when I was 19
(24:01):
years old when he gave me Psalm18 showed up for me at this
point and this point and this.
I have hope right now.
I don't see you, but Istill have hope and I have
learned, and I'm beingreminded from my people.
Hang on.
Pain endswell, Brenda, you are a woman,
I can tell, has a lot to offer.
(24:23):
I wish we even could gointo some of that more
because there's a lot there.
I'll have to have you backon Radical abundance for.
I'll have to wish you aradically abundant day.
Thank you.
I will come back.
Thank you.
Great.
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