December 19, 2022 • 26 mins
You have a dream, but something has held you back from pursuing it. It’s never too late to start doing what you know God has called you to do.
Patrick E Craig started out as a successful musician, but felt something was missing. When he turned to faith, he left the music business to go to Bible school, but something still wasn’t right. He finally realized that his passion and his ministry could be found in writing.
Get the book – The Men of Amish Fiction, a Christmas Collection - https://amzn.to/3PAeDIG
Guest Bio:
Best-selling author, Patrick E. Craig, is a lifelong writer and musician who left a successful performance career in 1986 to become a pastor. After pastoring, teaching and speaking at seminars in churches on the west coast for many years, he retired in 2007 to concentrate on writing and publishing fiction books. In November 2011, Patrick signed a three-book deal with Harvest House Publishers to publish his Apple Creek Dreams series. His latest books, The Amish Heiress, The Amish Princess, and The Mennonite Queen, and the reprinted Apple Creek Dreams series are published by his own imprint, P&J Publishing, and all have spent time on the "Hot New releases" and "Amazon Best Seller" lists on Amazon. Harlequin Publishing recently purchased The Amish Heiress for their new Walmart Amish promotion series and that book will is now available in Walmart stores across the country. He also recently signed with Elk Lake Publishing to publish his Middle School/YA mystery series, The Adventures of Punkin and Boo. Patrick is represented by the Steve Laube Agency.
Patrick has an extensive background as a writer. Throughout his school years he edited high school and college newspapers. In 1964 he won a national editorial contest sponsored by the Wall Street Journal for an editorial he wrote on the death of President Kennedy, and, in the same year, acted as Senior Editor for a special issue of the University of Washington Evergreen during a summer internship for High School Editors. After a year at Whitman College, where he was a journalism major, he moved to the San Francisco Bay area where he became a fixture on the local music scene.
As a professional songwriter, he wrote with and for such artists as Bill Champlin (Chicago), David Jenkins (Pablo Cruise), Buddy Miles, The Tazmanian Devils, and many others in the secular music industry. His songs were recorded by such artists and music groups as West Coast Natural Gas, Indian Pudding and Pipe, Joey Covington's Fat Fandango, The Sons of Champlin, The Tazmanian Devils, Buddy Miles, David Jenkins, Laura Allen, The Fairfax Street Choir and in Europe by the Swedish Band Seid. He had two music albums released on Warner Brothers records with The Tazmanian Devils and contributed as a performer and recording engineer to best selling albums by artists such as Chris Isaak and others.
As a performer he played keyboards and sang with bands such as West Coast Natural Gas, Indian Pudding and Pipe, Van Morrison, Joe E. Covington, The Kantner-Balin Band, The New Boogaloo Express, The Fairfax Street Choir, The Tazmanian Devils, David Jenkins, Buddy Miles, and many others.
Now as a full-time fiction writer he turns out two to three books every year and is fast-gaining a reputation in the literary world.
Learn more about Radical Abundance at Radical-Abundance.com
Teresa Janzen is your host. She ignites a passion for abundant living through radical service. Teresa is an international speaker, author, and coach of speakers and writers. Her experience in leadership and global ministry drives her to share inspiring stories with wit and insight. Her candid and personable style is sure to capture the heart of any audience.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:05):
Welcome to Radical Abundance.
I'm your host, Teresa Janssen.
Everyone seems to be lookingfor their purpose in life, but
sometimes when we get a clearindication of what our purpose
should be, We don't embraceit immediately today, that's
what we're gonna talk about.
My guest is Patrick E.
Craig, and he had anaccomplished career as
(00:25):
a musician that he leftto become a pastor.
Then he left that toembrace full-time writing.
We're gonna talk aboutthat journey and what
it means for you and I.
Patrick, welcome to RadicalAbundance.
Good morning, Teresa how are.
I'm doing great.
I'm so excited to haveyou on Radical Abundance.
(00:46):
You are an accomplished writer.
You've written a a lot ofbooks, best selling books,
and we'll talk about those.
But first I wanna hear abouta little bit about your past,
because I know you were asuccessful musician before you
came, became an author, butfor some reason that didn't
seem to quite fit what you feltGod's plan for your life was.
(01:08):
Can you tell us about.
Well, yeah.
Got into music at,at an early age.
I had a, an uncle whowas a graduate of the
Julliard School of Music, aaccomplished piano player.
He started me on lessonswhen I was young, and then
he gave me a trombone whenI was in the sixth grade.
(01:29):
And I played in the bands,in the marching bands
and concert bands, and I.
I had friends who weregifted musicians also, and
so we started forming littlecombos and after a while I
thought that that might bewhat I wanted to pursue.
And so I, I went to Seattle inthe Northwest and got into some
(01:49):
very, Popular bands up thereand played there for a couple
of years and then finally mademy way down to San Francisco.
That was back in the sixtiesand that was, at that point
it was the mecca for music,especially on the West coast.
And so, I got involved in theSan Francisco music scene and.
Worked with a lot of peoplethat are very, you know,
(02:12):
name known big time musiciansand played in their bands.
At one point I played inband, Morrison's Band, and
I, I worked with guys likeBuddy Miles and Bill Chaplin
and I worked with other.
Well known musicians,Marty Ballon.
And then I got into a bandcalled, interestingly Enough,
the Tasmanian Devils, and webecame in, I think in 1982, we
(02:37):
won Best Club Band in, in SanFrancisco, the gr, the what
they called the Bammy, whichwas like the San Francisco gram.
and we were very popular.
We got an album deal with WarnerBrothers and did two albums that
were very popular and played.
But at a certain pointI realized, There was
(02:57):
something missing in my life.
I was pursuing all differentkinds of things in my
lifestyle, but none ofthem gave me satisfaction.
You know, I tried differenteastern religions because
that's what everybody was doing,and, and then at a certain
point in 1984, I just had.
(03:18):
it was killing me.
The lifestyle wasbasically killing me.
And I had a friend who'd amusician friend who'd become
a Christian, and he had beenpraying for me with his church.
I had a, a incrediblerevelation, revelatory
experience in my recordingstudio one night where Jesus
showed up and I just gave it up.
(03:38):
I gave up all the professionalmusic and, and went back to.
And it's been the most rewardingexperience of my whole life.
And so that's, that's whathappened with my music, and
I realized I couldn't keepdoing that and serve him.
So I went to Bible college,, and I graduated from Bible
(04:01):
college and be because ofmy musical background, I got
involved in leading worship inchurches and then at a certain
point, a, a small church inPetaluma, California asked me
to come on as associate pastor.
And so I went on as the musicpastor and a teaching pastor.
And I did that forabout 10 years and.
(04:23):
My wife and I when we leftthat church, we went out and
had started a music ministrywhere we were going to
small churches that didn'thave a musical expression.
And we would go there and we'dstay for two days or two years
depending on what they needed.
And I would, we would findsomebody in the church that
(04:45):
could play, that could playan instrument, and we would
teach them how to lead.
And we trained them and we,we trained leaders in several
churches and we led in alldifferent kinds of churches
from an Episcopal church toan Assembly of God church
and everything in between.
And so that was our ministry fora while, because you see, when
(05:05):
I was seven, I was publishedfor the first time, and.
All my relatives said,you're such a good writer.
You should reallythink about doing that.
And so that seed wasplanted in me back when
I was seven years old.
And then I was alwaysinvolved in the school paper.
I was editor of every schoolpaper I worked on, and so
(05:27):
that writing thing, and evenwhen I was doing music, , the
most fun thing in the musicbusiness was writing songs.
So I was always involved inwriting songs, not only with my
own groups, but with differentpeople that were well known.
And I had several songs thatdid very well out there.
And . So it was always,and I always wrote story
(05:49):
songs, storytelling songs.
I always wanted to tell astory I didn't wanna do, you
know, like yummy, yummy, yummy.
I got love in mytummy kind of songs.
I wanted to tell stories.
And so by the time we reacheda certain point, we came
home to the northwest andI just realized that what I
really wanted to do was tellstories I wanted to write.
(06:11):
And so that's how I arrivedat where I am today.
. Well,Patrick, that's really quite
a story and you know, thefirst part of your story,
I hear it oftentimes peoplestart on a path and they,
they get some fame or fortuneor, or not notability of
some kind, and then God grabsa hold of their life and.
(06:32):
Puts them in ministry.
Yep.
But then here I hear somethinga little bit different because
a lot of people would thinkwhen you got into music ministry
and the work that you'redoing, surely that must be
God's purpose for your life.
That should bewhat you're doing.
And yet you still foundthat that wasn't quite it.
Now today, I know that youare a little bit of a unusual
(06:55):
writer in some senses becauseyou're a a rare male writer.
Romance novels.
Right.
Is that, tell us a little bitabout the type of writing you
do and how that is fulfillingGod's purpose for your life.
Well, I'm actually one ofabout six men who write Amish
fiction, and there's hundreds ofladies who write Amish fiction,
(07:19):
but there's only about six orseven of us men who write it.
But I am a romantic at heart,and when I grew up, One of my
favorite authors was Zane Gray.
Now, everybody thinks thatZane Gray is a, an adventure
writer, but if you lookat his books, he is one of
(07:39):
the best romance writersthat ever set pen to paper.
I mean, all of his books havea very powerful romantic thread
throughout them, which usuallyisn't solved until about the
last paragraph of the book.
And there's alwaysan incredible.
love interest.
And so that was,I just loved that.
(08:00):
I mean, I think the firstZane Gray book I ever
read was Betty Zane.
And there's this incrediblelove story, of course.
And it, and it's classic, itstarts out where they, where
Alfred and Betty meet in avery unpleasant circumstances
and they hate each other.
And then throughout thebook, at, at the end, by,
by the end of the book, ofcourse, they're madly in love.
(08:23):
Writing Amish that I, I gotinto writing Amish books
almost on a dare because Iknew nothing about the Amish.
I went to a writer's conferencefor several years in California
called Mount Herman, andI met a fellow there Nick
Harrison, who at that timewas the senior editor for
Harvest House Publishers.
(08:44):
And we talked aboutit one time and he.
Did you know that Amishfiction is the largest
selling Christian genre andhas been for about 25 years?
And I ever since Beverly Lewisstarted back then in Wanda
Brunett and those, those ladies,and I said, I did not know that.
And he said, well, I'm puttingtogether a, a collection
(09:06):
of short stories and I'dlike you to give me a one
sheet, a story idea for.
An Amish book, an Amishstory, and I like Amish
and I like quilting, andmy wife is a quilter.
So see if you can comeup with something.
So I came up with the ideafor a quilt for Jenna,
which I sent to Nick.
(09:28):
He, he contacted me.
He said, I reallylike this idea.
He said, and, but better thanthat, my wife loves the idea.
And she was of Amish background.
Her maiden name was Yoder.
She was involved in that.
So he said, can youturn it into a novel?
, and this is howgreen I was, Theresa.
I said, well, how manywords is that ? And he
(09:49):
said, he said, about 80,000.
And I and I, you know,I went, whoa, 80,000.
I said, sure, youknow, I can do that.
And he said, and can youdo two more after that?
And I said, sure, I can do that.
I had no idea what I was doing.
So he took it to his hisboard and they bought the.
(10:12):
and I signed a contract.
And now here I was someonewho knew absolutely nothing
about the Amish or quiltingwith a three book contract
with Harvest House.
So I had to immediatelystart doing research, thank
goodness for Google, right?
Cuz you could find out.
And I mean, I was literallytyping in stuff like do the
(10:33):
Amish fill in the blank?
And for , you know?
And fortunately duringthat period, Connected
with a gal on Facebookwho was an Amish writer.
Her name was Sicily Yoder,and she had been in the Amish
church, but moved over tothe Mennonite Church because
(10:54):
of some of the grace issues.
The, the shunning issue was alittle strong for her, but she
was a walking encyclopedia.
I could send her a note and say,Sicily, what would happen if an
Amish woman wanted to write a.
And she would send me backthree or four pages of
information about that.
(11:15):
And so my first three books.
All developed around that theme.
And, and she also was theone who told me that one of
the biggest issues in theAmish community is that many
of them do not have a savingrelationship with Christ because
they depend on the, the rules,the ordinance they call it,
(11:38):
or the, the, the verbal lawthat they've passed down over
centuries to give them rightstanding with God and she.
If you're gonna write Amishbooks somewhere in each
one, you have to put thatthe law doesn't save you.
Only Christ can do that.
Right?
And so I've tried, I've triedto do that in all my books,
(11:58):
plus the, and the other thingthat I've tried to look at is
that a lot of the Amish booksyou see on the shelves at
Walmart or any, some of thoseplaces, Happily ever after over
romanticized books that reallydon't touch on the issues that
are in the Amish community.
(12:18):
So what I'm trying to do withmy books is, while keeping
a romantic interest, I'malso trying to put people
into desperate situationsthat only God can fix.
. And so that's been the,the focus of my books.
They've done pretty well.
I mean, at the end of my threebook contract with Harvest
House, they kind of went awayfrom their fiction book and they
(12:42):
went back more toward peoplelike Storm, Stormi, Martian and
people that were writing, youknow, teaching books and things.
And so I learned how toindependently publish
and publish my nextthree Amish books.
And the first one, the am.
Aris was in the top 100 of,of mystery on Amazon for
(13:02):
seven months, and Harlequinsaw it and they bought it
from me, and they, theypublished it as one of their
little harlequin romances.
If you love Amish fictionlike I do, check out the men
of Amish fiction, presenta Christmas collection.
It would be a great lastminute gift or maybe a
(13:23):
little something for your.
Find the link in the show notes.
Well, Patrick, I think thatit's really interesting because
so many Christians, especiallyChristian women, and I have to
admit, I'm one of the ones wholoved the Amish romance novels.
I used to read them all.
Every time a new onecame out, I would get
(13:45):
it and I would read it.
It was just a reallyrelaxing thing for me
because they were a littlebit oftentimes predictable.
But what.
Also did, was it romanticizedthe Amish life to where me
as a Christian, I could lookat at their life thinking
that, you know, maybe theywere more spiritual, maybe
(14:05):
they were closer to God.
When exactly the opposite istrue for many, many people
in the Amish communities.
Yes, they're relying on worksand that happens outside
the Amish community as well.
It's only through grace thatwe're saved, and so I think.
You've really hit on something,making it more real to life.
(14:26):
Because where we meet Jesus isin those impossible situations
that only God can turn around.
Yes.
And I know that you alsowrite some historical fiction.
Tell us a little bit aboutthat, because it's not
directly for the Christianaudience, is that right?
Well, I wrote twoAmish historical.
(14:48):
Fiction books.
One was called the AmishPrincess, about an Indian
princess who meets two Amishmen that are brought to
her village as as captives.
And so through her interactionwith those two twin
brothers, she comes to faith.
I like to take historical.
Real historical situations andthen kind of plug my characters
(15:12):
into them and surround them withhistorical figures That, and I
even in that, that particularbook, the Amish Princess, I
plugged in some characters fromsome Zane Gray books that were.
Also real characters thathe plugged into his books.
And it was set in that samearea, the Ohio Wilderness
(15:33):
back in the, during theFrench and Indian War, and
then the Revolutionary War.
And then I went clear backto the beginning of, because
the whole six Books seriesis a, is a series about one
family, the Hirsch burgers.
And so I.
Clear back to the beginning ofthe Hirschberger family back
in Poland, and I took a realprincess, princess Isabella Ja.
(15:56):
And I married her to a,to a Mennonite or to a
Anna Baptist stable boy.
And you know, of coursethey ran off and ended
up in Munster, Germanyduring the big Anabaptist
revolution that where.
Took over the city by force,and it was a whole, really
violated all of the antiBaptist tenants of non-violence.
(16:19):
And then somehow they gotlinked up with Menno Simons,
who became the, the fatherof the Mennonite movement.
. And so I used all thosehistorical things, but plugged
in some, some fictionalcharacters and situations.
And then in that process I meta fellow named Murray Pure,
(16:41):
who's a Canadian writer andbrilliant, brilliant author.
And we decided thatwhat we wanted to.
Some historical fictionthat was pointed toward
the general market.
He's got maybe 35books published.
I've got 18.
We realized that we mightbe just preaching to the
(17:02):
choir, you know, because theChristians that read our books
all knew, or most of them knewwhat we were talking about.
So we, we, we thought about itand we thought, how about if
we take three Mennonite boys?
Cuz he writes Amish fictiontoo and has some very well
bestselling Amish books himself.
He's one of the other sixmen that write Amish fiction.
(17:25):
So he thought, what if wetake three men a night, boys?
And in wor in 1941 andget them into the Marines
through a series ofdifferent circumstances.
So one of the young men issexually molested in his
church and his Mennonitechurch, and his father,
(17:46):
who's an elder, covers it up.
Mm-hmm.
. And it puts a hugeanger in his heart.
So he joins the Marines becausebasically he wants to learn to.
And he tells his dad, when Ilearned to kill, I'm coming
back to Bonners Ferry and I'mgonna find that guy, the guy
that that hurt me now, andone of the other young men.
(18:07):
Is a very devout Mennonite.
His dad's a bishop and he,but he starts reading the
newspapers about what'sgoing on in Manchuria and
in China, what the Japanesearmies are doing to civilians.
And he goes to his dad andhe says, dad, if they get
over here, they'll do thesame thing to the women.
And, and I'm not gonnaallow that to happen
(18:29):
to my sister and my.
So I'm joining the Army.
Well, he gets disenfranchisedby his dad and he ends
up in the Marines.
And the third guy is like aDesmond Doss character who
goes, says, I, I, I gottastand up and help defend the
country that gives my peoplethe right to be nonviolent.
(18:51):
So he goes to the Marines andhe says, I'll do anything you
want me to do, except kill.
I won't.
, but I'll be a medic.
I'll, I'll drive trucks,I'll clean latrines,
whatever you need me to do.
So these three guys endup on Guddle Canal and
that's the first book.
And so it's, it's a war book.
(19:11):
And so when we were writingit, we contacted a lot of
veterans, guys that had beenin World War ii, guys that
had been in Vietnam and, andour biggest concern was the
language, how we could be.
Deal with the language and yetpresent a Christian worldview.
And they said to us, ifyou don't use authentic
(19:35):
marine language, peoplewho have been in the
military will not read it.
It'll be too wimpy for them.
And so we looked at it veryclosely and we, we used
language, most of whichyou can find in the Bible.
You know, words that youcan find in the Bible.
But we still triedto make it authentic.
(19:57):
Well, Patrick, a coupleof things I think
are interesting here.
You know, one is I talk toChristian authors all the
time who want to be ableto influence or impact or
reach non-Christian audiencesand you have really come up
with a strategy to do that.
And that.
Really, I think aninteresting thing.
(20:18):
How has that influenced your,do you see this as ministry or?
As a career or how do youview all of this work that
God has led you to throughthis very wandering path
of, of your life purpose?
.
Well, I, I see it as ministryall any of us need to do is look
(20:39):
around at the world today, andwe know that if the Bible is
correct, which I fully believeit is, we are in the last days.
and so the, I don't think thatthe church's job is to win the
world because I don't thinkthat the church is supposed
to make the world so goodthat Jesus can come back.
(21:02):
I think the Gerald, thechurch is supposed to let
the world know that Jesus,that it's getting so bad
that Jesus is going tocome back and he's going to
come back in judgment and.
In the meantime, whatare we supposed to do?
We're supposed to snatchas many people out of that
fire as we possibly can.
(21:23):
And so everything thatwe do should be speaking
to people's hearts.
You know, people should be.
wondering what's goingon in this world and
what can I do about it?
And of course, what youand I know is that the only
thing to be done is a savingrelationship with Jesus Christ.
Right?
And that's the only thing that'sgonna pull us out of the fire.
(21:45):
And so that's the messagethat needs to be shared with
the general reading public.
And so how, how youpresent that you have to.
I'm just learningthe skill right now.
You know the craft of howto do that because there's
certain things that Ibelieve you shouldn't do.
(22:06):
You know, you shouldn't spend alot of time in books like that.
Like for instance, takingthe Lord's name in vain.
You know, you have to be carefulwith your, with your language.
But still, there's certainsituations like in a battle
scene where guys are goingto use word words, that
that might be offensive,but they might also cut.
and so you have tolearn to balance that.
(22:28):
It might cut through people'sthinking where they're not just.
. This is not just a happilyever after romance, where
the worst thing that happensis that the wheel falls off
the bishop's son's buggy,you know, and , right?
This is a real world,and there's real, real
terrible things going onout there in the world.
(22:48):
And as much as we like to bein church and have worship and
listen to the word, there'sstill people out there that are
dealing with, with very, very d.
Desperate situationsand they need to find
out about Jesus Christ.
So how do we do that, Patrick?
I know you're going to bea presenter at an upcoming
conference we have forChristian Creatives, and
(23:11):
you're going to talk moreabout this topic of reaching
the non-Christian market.
Yes.
As a Christian author, soI really appreciate that.
I, I can't believe we've cometo the end of the show, but
before we go, I want you tospeak directly to someone today
that has felt God has a callingon their life, and maybe they
(23:31):
haven't responded to that call.
What would you sayto that person?
Well, when we read Roman chapternine, we see Paul, and of course
we know he is speaking to thenation of Israel and he says,
God's gifts and callings arewithout repentance, but all
scripture is for us to use.
I mean, sometimes theBible may not be about us.
(23:53):
, but it is always for us.
And so when, when Paul saysGod's gifts and callings
are without repentance,he's dead serious.
And God puts a calling on yourlife and sometimes you get it.
Sometimes you see it, butsometimes you miss it.
But you know what?
That calling always remains.
It's always there.
(24:14):
God doesn't change his mind.
He is the same Yesterday,today and forever, especially
for a Christian who.
is, feels that their lifeis kind of wandering.
It's time to do some seriousbusiness with the Lord.
It's time to reallyset aside some time and
ask him, Lord, what?
do you have for me?
(24:35):
And, and oftentimes you won'tget like a audible word,
but, but your circumstanceswill start to push you
in a specific direction.
Like me, I was, I, I had cometo the end of the music ministry
in the church and I was kindof disillusioned and dismayed.
And one night I had a.
(24:58):
, and I really believe it wasthe Lord speaking to me.
But the dream was an, a favoriteaunt who had passed away who
always encouraged me to write.
And she was a writer herself.
And my grandmother wasa, an Irish storyteller.
I mean, she could tell storiesfrom memory that she didn't
even write 'em down, but that'smy, my family background.
(25:19):
And so in this dream, my.
Came into my bedroom and lookedat me with that stern look.
She used to look at meand she said, you write.
And when I woke up that nextmorning, , I opened up the
newspaper and to the Juanads and there was an ad for a
ranch called Ghost Dance Ranchthat was for sale in my area.
(25:40):
And I got the whole idea for astory, a, a mystery story, like
a Hardy boy mystery called TheMystery of Ghost Dancersa Ranch.
And so that was where I firststarted, but I really believe
that God just spoke to me.
He said, now you're done withall this other stuff you.
And so that's what I would sayto those who might be wrestling
(26:03):
with that calling On your life.
What do you love?
What is the thing in yourlife that you've loved all
your life that you, that youknow you, if you could just
do this, you'd be happy.
Will, my suggestion to you is,Do it.
That's a great note to end on.
Patrick, thank you so much andI wish you a radically abundant
(26:24):
day.
Oh great.
Thank you, Theresa,for having me.
Welcome to Radical Abundance.
I'm your host, Teresa Janssen.
Everyone seems to be lookingfor their purpose in life, but
sometimes when we get a clearindication of what our purpose
should be, We don't embraceit immediately today, that's
what we're gonna talk about.
My guest is Patrick E.
Craig, and he had anaccomplished career as
(00:25):
a musician that he leftto become a pastor.
Then he left that toembrace full-time writing.
We're gonna talk aboutthat journey and what
it means for you and I.
Patrick, welcome to RadicalAbundance.
Good morning, Teresa how are.
I'm doing great.
I'm so excited to haveyou on Radical Abundance.
(00:46):
You are an accomplished writer.
You've written a a lot ofbooks, best selling books,
and we'll talk about those.
But first I wanna hear abouta little bit about your past,
because I know you were asuccessful musician before you
came, became an author, butfor some reason that didn't
seem to quite fit what you feltGod's plan for your life was.
(01:08):
Can you tell us about.
Well, yeah.
Got into music at,at an early age.
I had a, an uncle whowas a graduate of the
Julliard School of Music, aaccomplished piano player.
He started me on lessonswhen I was young, and then
he gave me a trombone whenI was in the sixth grade.
(01:29):
And I played in the bands,in the marching bands
and concert bands, and I.
I had friends who weregifted musicians also, and
so we started forming littlecombos and after a while I
thought that that might bewhat I wanted to pursue.
And so I, I went to Seattle inthe Northwest and got into some
(01:49):
very, Popular bands up thereand played there for a couple
of years and then finally mademy way down to San Francisco.
That was back in the sixtiesand that was, at that point
it was the mecca for music,especially on the West coast.
And so, I got involved in theSan Francisco music scene and.
Worked with a lot of peoplethat are very, you know,
(02:12):
name known big time musiciansand played in their bands.
At one point I played inband, Morrison's Band, and
I, I worked with guys likeBuddy Miles and Bill Chaplin
and I worked with other.
Well known musicians,Marty Ballon.
And then I got into a bandcalled, interestingly Enough,
the Tasmanian Devils, and webecame in, I think in 1982, we
(02:37):
won Best Club Band in, in SanFrancisco, the gr, the what
they called the Bammy, whichwas like the San Francisco gram.
and we were very popular.
We got an album deal with WarnerBrothers and did two albums that
were very popular and played.
But at a certain pointI realized, There was
(02:57):
something missing in my life.
I was pursuing all differentkinds of things in my
lifestyle, but none ofthem gave me satisfaction.
You know, I tried differenteastern religions because
that's what everybody was doing,and, and then at a certain
point in 1984, I just had.
(03:18):
it was killing me.
The lifestyle wasbasically killing me.
And I had a friend who'd amusician friend who'd become
a Christian, and he had beenpraying for me with his church.
I had a, a incrediblerevelation, revelatory
experience in my recordingstudio one night where Jesus
showed up and I just gave it up.
(03:38):
I gave up all the professionalmusic and, and went back to.
And it's been the most rewardingexperience of my whole life.
And so that's, that's whathappened with my music, and
I realized I couldn't keepdoing that and serve him.
So I went to Bible college,, and I graduated from Bible
(04:01):
college and be because ofmy musical background, I got
involved in leading worship inchurches and then at a certain
point, a, a small church inPetaluma, California asked me
to come on as associate pastor.
And so I went on as the musicpastor and a teaching pastor.
And I did that forabout 10 years and.
(04:23):
My wife and I when we leftthat church, we went out and
had started a music ministrywhere we were going to
small churches that didn'thave a musical expression.
And we would go there and we'dstay for two days or two years
depending on what they needed.
And I would, we would findsomebody in the church that
(04:45):
could play, that could playan instrument, and we would
teach them how to lead.
And we trained them and we,we trained leaders in several
churches and we led in alldifferent kinds of churches
from an Episcopal church toan Assembly of God church
and everything in between.
And so that was our ministry fora while, because you see, when
(05:05):
I was seven, I was publishedfor the first time, and.
All my relatives said,you're such a good writer.
You should reallythink about doing that.
And so that seed wasplanted in me back when
I was seven years old.
And then I was alwaysinvolved in the school paper.
I was editor of every schoolpaper I worked on, and so
(05:27):
that writing thing, and evenwhen I was doing music, , the
most fun thing in the musicbusiness was writing songs.
So I was always involved inwriting songs, not only with my
own groups, but with differentpeople that were well known.
And I had several songs thatdid very well out there.
And . So it was always,and I always wrote story
(05:49):
songs, storytelling songs.
I always wanted to tell astory I didn't wanna do, you
know, like yummy, yummy, yummy.
I got love in mytummy kind of songs.
I wanted to tell stories.
And so by the time we reacheda certain point, we came
home to the northwest andI just realized that what I
really wanted to do was tellstories I wanted to write.
(06:11):
And so that's how I arrivedat where I am today.
. Well,Patrick, that's really quite
a story and you know, thefirst part of your story,
I hear it oftentimes peoplestart on a path and they,
they get some fame or fortuneor, or not notability of
some kind, and then God grabsa hold of their life and.
(06:32):
Puts them in ministry.
Yep.
But then here I hear somethinga little bit different because
a lot of people would thinkwhen you got into music ministry
and the work that you'redoing, surely that must be
God's purpose for your life.
That should bewhat you're doing.
And yet you still foundthat that wasn't quite it.
Now today, I know that youare a little bit of a unusual
(06:55):
writer in some senses becauseyou're a a rare male writer.
Romance novels.
Right.
Is that, tell us a little bitabout the type of writing you
do and how that is fulfillingGod's purpose for your life.
Well, I'm actually one ofabout six men who write Amish
fiction, and there's hundreds ofladies who write Amish fiction,
(07:19):
but there's only about six orseven of us men who write it.
But I am a romantic at heart,and when I grew up, One of my
favorite authors was Zane Gray.
Now, everybody thinks thatZane Gray is a, an adventure
writer, but if you lookat his books, he is one of
(07:39):
the best romance writersthat ever set pen to paper.
I mean, all of his books havea very powerful romantic thread
throughout them, which usuallyisn't solved until about the
last paragraph of the book.
And there's alwaysan incredible.
love interest.
And so that was,I just loved that.
(08:00):
I mean, I think the firstZane Gray book I ever
read was Betty Zane.
And there's this incrediblelove story, of course.
And it, and it's classic, itstarts out where they, where
Alfred and Betty meet in avery unpleasant circumstances
and they hate each other.
And then throughout thebook, at, at the end, by,
by the end of the book, ofcourse, they're madly in love.
(08:23):
Writing Amish that I, I gotinto writing Amish books
almost on a dare because Iknew nothing about the Amish.
I went to a writer's conferencefor several years in California
called Mount Herman, andI met a fellow there Nick
Harrison, who at that timewas the senior editor for
Harvest House Publishers.
(08:44):
And we talked aboutit one time and he.
Did you know that Amishfiction is the largest
selling Christian genre andhas been for about 25 years?
And I ever since Beverly Lewisstarted back then in Wanda
Brunett and those, those ladies,and I said, I did not know that.
And he said, well, I'm puttingtogether a, a collection
(09:06):
of short stories and I'dlike you to give me a one
sheet, a story idea for.
An Amish book, an Amishstory, and I like Amish
and I like quilting, andmy wife is a quilter.
So see if you can comeup with something.
So I came up with the ideafor a quilt for Jenna,
which I sent to Nick.
(09:28):
He, he contacted me.
He said, I reallylike this idea.
He said, and, but better thanthat, my wife loves the idea.
And she was of Amish background.
Her maiden name was Yoder.
She was involved in that.
So he said, can youturn it into a novel?
, and this is howgreen I was, Theresa.
I said, well, how manywords is that ? And he
(09:49):
said, he said, about 80,000.
And I and I, you know,I went, whoa, 80,000.
I said, sure, youknow, I can do that.
And he said, and can youdo two more after that?
And I said, sure, I can do that.
I had no idea what I was doing.
So he took it to his hisboard and they bought the.
(10:12):
and I signed a contract.
And now here I was someonewho knew absolutely nothing
about the Amish or quiltingwith a three book contract
with Harvest House.
So I had to immediatelystart doing research, thank
goodness for Google, right?
Cuz you could find out.
And I mean, I was literallytyping in stuff like do the
(10:33):
Amish fill in the blank?
And for , you know?
And fortunately duringthat period, Connected
with a gal on Facebookwho was an Amish writer.
Her name was Sicily Yoder,and she had been in the Amish
church, but moved over tothe Mennonite Church because
(10:54):
of some of the grace issues.
The, the shunning issue was alittle strong for her, but she
was a walking encyclopedia.
I could send her a note and say,Sicily, what would happen if an
Amish woman wanted to write a.
And she would send me backthree or four pages of
information about that.
(11:15):
And so my first three books.
All developed around that theme.
And, and she also was theone who told me that one of
the biggest issues in theAmish community is that many
of them do not have a savingrelationship with Christ because
they depend on the, the rules,the ordinance they call it,
(11:38):
or the, the, the verbal lawthat they've passed down over
centuries to give them rightstanding with God and she.
If you're gonna write Amishbooks somewhere in each
one, you have to put thatthe law doesn't save you.
Only Christ can do that.
Right?
And so I've tried, I've triedto do that in all my books,
(11:58):
plus the, and the other thingthat I've tried to look at is
that a lot of the Amish booksyou see on the shelves at
Walmart or any, some of thoseplaces, Happily ever after over
romanticized books that reallydon't touch on the issues that
are in the Amish community.
(12:18):
So what I'm trying to do withmy books is, while keeping
a romantic interest, I'malso trying to put people
into desperate situationsthat only God can fix.
. And so that's been the,the focus of my books.
They've done pretty well.
I mean, at the end of my threebook contract with Harvest
House, they kind of went awayfrom their fiction book and they
(12:42):
went back more toward peoplelike Storm, Stormi, Martian and
people that were writing, youknow, teaching books and things.
And so I learned how toindependently publish
and publish my nextthree Amish books.
And the first one, the am.
Aris was in the top 100 of,of mystery on Amazon for
(13:02):
seven months, and Harlequinsaw it and they bought it
from me, and they, theypublished it as one of their
little harlequin romances.
If you love Amish fictionlike I do, check out the men
of Amish fiction, presenta Christmas collection.
It would be a great lastminute gift or maybe a
(13:23):
little something for your.
Find the link in the show notes.
Well, Patrick, I think thatit's really interesting because
so many Christians, especiallyChristian women, and I have to
admit, I'm one of the ones wholoved the Amish romance novels.
I used to read them all.
Every time a new onecame out, I would get
(13:45):
it and I would read it.
It was just a reallyrelaxing thing for me
because they were a littlebit oftentimes predictable.
But what.
Also did, was it romanticizedthe Amish life to where me
as a Christian, I could lookat at their life thinking
that, you know, maybe theywere more spiritual, maybe
(14:05):
they were closer to God.
When exactly the opposite istrue for many, many people
in the Amish communities.
Yes, they're relying on worksand that happens outside
the Amish community as well.
It's only through grace thatwe're saved, and so I think.
You've really hit on something,making it more real to life.
(14:26):
Because where we meet Jesus isin those impossible situations
that only God can turn around.
Yes.
And I know that you alsowrite some historical fiction.
Tell us a little bit aboutthat, because it's not
directly for the Christianaudience, is that right?
Well, I wrote twoAmish historical.
(14:48):
Fiction books.
One was called the AmishPrincess, about an Indian
princess who meets two Amishmen that are brought to
her village as as captives.
And so through her interactionwith those two twin
brothers, she comes to faith.
I like to take historical.
Real historical situations andthen kind of plug my characters
(15:12):
into them and surround them withhistorical figures That, and I
even in that, that particularbook, the Amish Princess, I
plugged in some characters fromsome Zane Gray books that were.
Also real characters thathe plugged into his books.
And it was set in that samearea, the Ohio Wilderness
(15:33):
back in the, during theFrench and Indian War, and
then the Revolutionary War.
And then I went clear backto the beginning of, because
the whole six Books seriesis a, is a series about one
family, the Hirsch burgers.
And so I.
Clear back to the beginning ofthe Hirschberger family back
in Poland, and I took a realprincess, princess Isabella Ja.
(15:56):
And I married her to a,to a Mennonite or to a
Anna Baptist stable boy.
And you know, of coursethey ran off and ended
up in Munster, Germanyduring the big Anabaptist
revolution that where.
Took over the city by force,and it was a whole, really
violated all of the antiBaptist tenants of non-violence.
(16:19):
And then somehow they gotlinked up with Menno Simons,
who became the, the fatherof the Mennonite movement.
. And so I used all thosehistorical things, but plugged
in some, some fictionalcharacters and situations.
And then in that process I meta fellow named Murray Pure,
(16:41):
who's a Canadian writer andbrilliant, brilliant author.
And we decided thatwhat we wanted to.
Some historical fictionthat was pointed toward
the general market.
He's got maybe 35books published.
I've got 18.
We realized that we mightbe just preaching to the
(17:02):
choir, you know, because theChristians that read our books
all knew, or most of them knewwhat we were talking about.
So we, we, we thought about itand we thought, how about if
we take three Mennonite boys?
Cuz he writes Amish fictiontoo and has some very well
bestselling Amish books himself.
He's one of the other sixmen that write Amish fiction.
(17:25):
So he thought, what if wetake three men a night, boys?
And in wor in 1941 andget them into the Marines
through a series ofdifferent circumstances.
So one of the young men issexually molested in his
church and his Mennonitechurch, and his father,
(17:46):
who's an elder, covers it up.
Mm-hmm.
. And it puts a hugeanger in his heart.
So he joins the Marines becausebasically he wants to learn to.
And he tells his dad, when Ilearned to kill, I'm coming
back to Bonners Ferry and I'mgonna find that guy, the guy
that that hurt me now, andone of the other young men.
(18:07):
Is a very devout Mennonite.
His dad's a bishop and he,but he starts reading the
newspapers about what'sgoing on in Manchuria and
in China, what the Japanesearmies are doing to civilians.
And he goes to his dad andhe says, dad, if they get
over here, they'll do thesame thing to the women.
And, and I'm not gonnaallow that to happen
(18:29):
to my sister and my.
So I'm joining the Army.
Well, he gets disenfranchisedby his dad and he ends
up in the Marines.
And the third guy is like aDesmond Doss character who
goes, says, I, I, I gottastand up and help defend the
country that gives my peoplethe right to be nonviolent.
(18:51):
So he goes to the Marines andhe says, I'll do anything you
want me to do, except kill.
I won't.
, but I'll be a medic.
I'll, I'll drive trucks,I'll clean latrines,
whatever you need me to do.
So these three guys endup on Guddle Canal and
that's the first book.
And so it's, it's a war book.
(19:11):
And so when we were writingit, we contacted a lot of
veterans, guys that had beenin World War ii, guys that
had been in Vietnam and, andour biggest concern was the
language, how we could be.
Deal with the language and yetpresent a Christian worldview.
And they said to us, ifyou don't use authentic
(19:35):
marine language, peoplewho have been in the
military will not read it.
It'll be too wimpy for them.
And so we looked at it veryclosely and we, we used
language, most of whichyou can find in the Bible.
You know, words that youcan find in the Bible.
But we still triedto make it authentic.
(19:57):
Well, Patrick, a coupleof things I think
are interesting here.
You know, one is I talk toChristian authors all the
time who want to be ableto influence or impact or
reach non-Christian audiencesand you have really come up
with a strategy to do that.
And that.
Really, I think aninteresting thing.
(20:18):
How has that influenced your,do you see this as ministry or?
As a career or how do youview all of this work that
God has led you to throughthis very wandering path
of, of your life purpose?
.
Well, I, I see it as ministryall any of us need to do is look
(20:39):
around at the world today, andwe know that if the Bible is
correct, which I fully believeit is, we are in the last days.
and so the, I don't think thatthe church's job is to win the
world because I don't thinkthat the church is supposed
to make the world so goodthat Jesus can come back.
(21:02):
I think the Gerald, thechurch is supposed to let
the world know that Jesus,that it's getting so bad
that Jesus is going tocome back and he's going to
come back in judgment and.
In the meantime, whatare we supposed to do?
We're supposed to snatchas many people out of that
fire as we possibly can.
(21:23):
And so everything thatwe do should be speaking
to people's hearts.
You know, people should be.
wondering what's goingon in this world and
what can I do about it?
And of course, what youand I know is that the only
thing to be done is a savingrelationship with Jesus Christ.
Right?
And that's the only thing that'sgonna pull us out of the fire.
(21:45):
And so that's the messagethat needs to be shared with
the general reading public.
And so how, how youpresent that you have to.
I'm just learningthe skill right now.
You know the craft of howto do that because there's
certain things that Ibelieve you shouldn't do.
(22:06):
You know, you shouldn't spend alot of time in books like that.
Like for instance, takingthe Lord's name in vain.
You know, you have to be carefulwith your, with your language.
But still, there's certainsituations like in a battle
scene where guys are goingto use word words, that
that might be offensive,but they might also cut.
and so you have tolearn to balance that.
(22:28):
It might cut through people'sthinking where they're not just.
. This is not just a happilyever after romance, where
the worst thing that happensis that the wheel falls off
the bishop's son's buggy,you know, and , right?
This is a real world,and there's real, real
terrible things going onout there in the world.
(22:48):
And as much as we like to bein church and have worship and
listen to the word, there'sstill people out there that are
dealing with, with very, very d.
Desperate situationsand they need to find
out about Jesus Christ.
So how do we do that, Patrick?
I know you're going to bea presenter at an upcoming
conference we have forChristian Creatives, and
(23:11):
you're going to talk moreabout this topic of reaching
the non-Christian market.
Yes.
As a Christian author, soI really appreciate that.
I, I can't believe we've cometo the end of the show, but
before we go, I want you tospeak directly to someone today
that has felt God has a callingon their life, and maybe they
(23:31):
haven't responded to that call.
What would you sayto that person?
Well, when we read Roman chapternine, we see Paul, and of course
we know he is speaking to thenation of Israel and he says,
God's gifts and callings arewithout repentance, but all
scripture is for us to use.
I mean, sometimes theBible may not be about us.
(23:53):
, but it is always for us.
And so when, when Paul saysGod's gifts and callings
are without repentance,he's dead serious.
And God puts a calling on yourlife and sometimes you get it.
Sometimes you see it, butsometimes you miss it.
But you know what?
That calling always remains.
It's always there.
(24:14):
God doesn't change his mind.
He is the same Yesterday,today and forever, especially
for a Christian who.
is, feels that their lifeis kind of wandering.
It's time to do some seriousbusiness with the Lord.
It's time to reallyset aside some time and
ask him, Lord, what?
do you have for me?
(24:35):
And, and oftentimes you won'tget like a audible word,
but, but your circumstanceswill start to push you
in a specific direction.
Like me, I was, I, I had cometo the end of the music ministry
in the church and I was kindof disillusioned and dismayed.
And one night I had a.
(24:58):
, and I really believe it wasthe Lord speaking to me.
But the dream was an, a favoriteaunt who had passed away who
always encouraged me to write.
And she was a writer herself.
And my grandmother wasa, an Irish storyteller.
I mean, she could tell storiesfrom memory that she didn't
even write 'em down, but that'smy, my family background.
(25:19):
And so in this dream, my.
Came into my bedroom and lookedat me with that stern look.
She used to look at meand she said, you write.
And when I woke up that nextmorning, , I opened up the
newspaper and to the Juanads and there was an ad for a
ranch called Ghost Dance Ranchthat was for sale in my area.
(25:40):
And I got the whole idea for astory, a, a mystery story, like
a Hardy boy mystery called TheMystery of Ghost Dancersa Ranch.
And so that was where I firststarted, but I really believe
that God just spoke to me.
He said, now you're done withall this other stuff you.
And so that's what I would sayto those who might be wrestling
(26:03):
with that calling On your life.
What do you love?
What is the thing in yourlife that you've loved all
your life that you, that youknow you, if you could just
do this, you'd be happy.
Will, my suggestion to you is,Do it.
That's a great note to end on.
Patrick, thank you so much andI wish you a radically abundant
(26:24):
day.
Oh great.
Thank you, Theresa,for having me.
Popular Podcasts
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.
Therapy Gecko
An unlicensed lizard psychologist travels the universe talking to strangers about absolutely nothing. TO CALL THE GECKO: follow me on https://www.twitch.tv/lyleforever to get a notification for when I am taking calls. I am usually live Mondays, Wednesdays, and Fridays but lately a lot of other times too. I am a gecko.
The Joe Rogan Experience
The official podcast of comedian Joe Rogan.