Episode 6: "Best Friends for Life" with a Special Guest....

Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
What did you have for dinner tonight?

(00:02):
Jimmy Jones.
Yeah, thanks for picking us up, Jimmy Jones.
You're so welcome.
I'm the best sister ever.
You are.
You're my only sister.
Yeah, so love me.
I do.
One day I woke up and realized that I wasn't happy.

(00:25):
But the best part about writing your own story is that you can change it whenever you want.
You are the main character and the author.
This is my life story, the spiritual awakening and sexual evolution of a wild woman.

(00:49):
May these stories help you to see and understand your own story better, awakening you to the
magic and synchronicity within your own life.
I know they will make you laugh, cry and cringe.
But they will also be a light in the darkness and a mirror to teach you more deeply about

(01:10):
who you are called to be.
I am Radically Rachael.

(01:40):
Hey Kings and Queens and everything in between, suns, moons and stars, listeners near and
listeners far.
You're listening to the Radically Rachael podcast, episode six.
Hey, Radicals.

(02:05):
I have a very special guest in the studio today.
She's the Mary-Kate to my Ashley, the Ashley Simpson to my Jessica, my best friend for
life, my sissy, Alexis.
Hi guys.

(02:26):
Hi Al.
Thanks for having me.
Thank you for being here.
The last few episodes of the podcast, I've been unpacking a bit about my sister as my
mortal enemy.
One, like two minutes of one episode, but we talked about it a little bit.

(02:48):
But so even though that that is how our story began when you first came into my world, I
didn't even remember that.
My story began before I could write it.
You wrote it in the beginning.
You had to play the part.
I just was there.
You were just like this thing.
A good sister.
But I mean, yeah, our stories were already written intertwined anyways.

(03:08):
I thought it fitting that my sister be my first official guest on the podcast.
Today we're going to tell you some good old stories from the block, what it was like growing
up as little girls together.
We'll also unpack a little bit about what it was like to experience each other in a
dysfunctional household at times and how we had periods in our friendship and sisterhood

(03:36):
where we were enemies truly, even in high school and when we were older and how we had
become friends, true friends.
Tell us about what were you like as a little girl?
What was little Ali like?
Well, I think the first way to say it was obviously I was your sister.

(03:59):
I know that's weird, but that was a big part of who I was even young when I didn't know
it.
You know what I mean?
It changed me.
I was a little sister.
For me, your identity of being a little sister.
Made me more shy.
Someone always spoke for me or asked strangers things.
I didn't like doing things like that.

(04:20):
And I think being a younger sister also made it really hard for me to figure out who I
was because some of it I spent time trying to be like you because I saw the responses
you got for being who you were.
So I thought I wanted to be more like you.
But then when I realized I didn't want to be like you, I didn't know who I was.
And then, you know, I don't know, it depends on what age you ask who I was.

(04:45):
So I'd say I was shy, but I was sweet.
I was a good girl.
I was a goody two shoes.
I didn't like doing bad things and I didn't like negative things.
They just made me feel uncomfortable.
So I was like a really good kid.
I followed the rules.
I like everything I was very like I just did my best to be like a really good kid.
Everything I would say about us as children is very much in that like you could have a

(05:07):
preschool poster of like opposites.
I was bad.
You were good.
You were quiet.
I was loud.
Yeah, I was outgoing.
You were shy.
Yes.
And that's not maybe who you are or who we are at our core.
Right.
But it's almost like we just.
That's the role I played as a child.
Yes, those portraits of opposites.
Right.
And because you filled in so many things, I felt the opposite.

(05:30):
I think I naturally took a form of things that were the opposite of you to fill to balance
out, I don't know, the family system.
I think some of it is my personality.
I'm a Libra and I'm a very peaceful person.
But like, I am those things to fill in that void if you think spiritually in the form
of our family.
So like, it made sense.
Yeah, I think I guess, right, for people who are developing for people who are developing

(05:53):
in a family structure where there's siblings.
Yes.
Yes.
Some part and piece of our personality is created by the atmosphere of the household
and the order of birth.
Birth order just play a little too.
Yeah.
And since there's only two of us, I was also the baby, which changed my identity too.
I wasn't just the younger sister of Rape Toll.
I was the baby of the family.

(06:14):
So I was more coddled, I think, a little bit more like a baby in any family would.
What were some of your hobbies and interests when you were little?
I had this thing where I would obsess about something very specific for who knows how
long, a month or two.
Very seriously, I would do everything I could about it.
I would draw it and tape it to my wall.

(06:36):
So like, I could tell you the things I obsessed about.
Video research, yeah.
Scooters.
I had a thing with the razor scooters.
We had a video game where we played so much that I just thought razor scooters were the
best.
So I wanted it so bad, I asked for it for every gift that came up.
I drew razor scooters on paper, cut them out and glued them to my seat.
I taped them to the top of my seat walls and had them going up lamps and stuff.

(06:59):
I manifested a scooter.
Did you get a scooter?
I never had one.
We both got scooters eventually.
Yeah, we both got a knockoff.
It wasn't a real razor scooter.
That's why I didn't remember.
I was like, we never had a razor scooter.
It was solid.
It didn't do the tricks and stuff.
But by then I was over it, I really wanted to be a pro basketball player.
I was like, I'm doing it.
And there was like double team Disney Channel movie.
I wanted to be them so bad.

(07:20):
Another sister thing in our life.
Sisters plays a role in so many things.
But I was obsessed with that movie.
Anytime it was on cable, I had to watch it.
It's not what I was doing and watch.
And so then- And mom and dad got you a basketball hoop.
Two basketballs on paper in all my journals and put them on my walls.
They got me a basketball hoop.
And Papa tried to get me into basketball, but then I was over it.
And then I moved on.
Whatever.
I was like, I'm gonna go play basketball.
I'm gonna go play basketball.
I'm gonna go play basketball.
And then I was like, I'm gonna go play basketball.

(07:42):
Whatever.
I don't know.
And I was like decent at some stuff too.
I just was over it.
And then I got into beading.
I was like, I'm making bracelets and necklaces.
I'm obsessed about collecting beads and putting them in really cool containers.
So I mean- You're a hobbyist.
I got into knitting.
And then I quit while someone was teaching me.
I had a months old breakdown and cried.
And then I never asked her to teach me again.
And I was anti-oppy.
But I was also left handed.
So when you have a baby, you have to be able to do it.
And I was like, I'm gonna go play basketball.
And I had someone teach me anything, guitar, writing.

(08:08):
Everything was extra hard for me because I would look at people's bodies and try to mirror
it and it would be really hard.
So I was watching someone knit.
It doesn't help me knit because she was like casting on a different tool.
And even watching someone is really hard.
So yeah, hobbies.
So yeah, I mean, I did a little of everything.
Yeah, I love that.
And for explored.

(08:29):
I was always in theater and like singing and tennis.
Like I really just had those same things that I did.
Yeah, you knew yours.
And I just like, yeah.
And so I love that you tried a lot of things.
Yeah.
And I even tried your things.
I tried doing plays and acting and.
We did gymnastics for a period of time.

(08:49):
We wanted, we were obsessed with being a gymnast.
Yeah.
Well, our neighbors were legit gymnasts for a long time.
So yeah, it was in the water.
So when I think about us as little girls, what comes to mind for me first, sadly, is
the experience of me not being a good sister to you.

(09:13):
And when I think about our childhood, I really think about just times where I was your bully
and times where I was not kind to you.
Specifically this one time I was playing with our neighborhood.
My neighborhood friend, Brian, we were playing Aladdin and Jasmine.
So like really young.
I was under five.
Yeah.

(09:33):
I would have been like five.
Right.
So I had to be like two.
Yeah, two or three because we were at our old house.
And he and I were playing Aladdin and Jasmine and there's no extra characters in Aladdin
and Jasmine.
The monkey.
I could have been the genie.
I know.
I know.
There was no extra characters in this scene.
But we were on the magic carpet.
On the magic carpet.
I was going to say, I could have been the carpet.
We were riding the magic carpet.
I could have been the personality.

(09:55):
And I just like I locked you out of my bedroom because he and I was trying to have a romantic
scene as a five year old with my friend.
Yeah.
That's like the very first memory you have of being a bully to me.
Because I know that story.
So it's one that will stick with you.
Yeah.
And I just remember that you were like banging on the door.
Just like, wait y'all let me in.
You know, you just really wanted to play with us.

(10:15):
And I.
Yeah.
And I didn't let you in.
And then I just tried to ride the magic carpet.
It was like our sleeping bag on the floor.
But.
And I just left you out.
You know.
And so I when I think about being kids for me what comes to mind first is just me being
a bully.
Yeah.
But I think at that age it wasn't really a choice.

(10:36):
It was a feeling.
You were experiencing a feeling of I want to play alone with my friend.
And that's a fair feeling.
You just didn't know how to say it.
And we didn't really have like anyone telling us the correct way to just communicate our
feelings.
So I think I don't even remember this for the record.
I don't remember it.
So don't let it hurt you too much.
I only remember it because you've shared it so many times like your hurt is now my memory

(10:57):
because and like of course I'm like oh that's so sweet.
That's the first moment you felt guilt for me which is like really sweet.
It's good that you felt guilt because it wasn't guilt that you wanted to be alone with someone.
It was guilt that the way you trained a bit.
Yeah.
Which is totally fair.
So like looking back I'm like oh I get it.
And that's just part of siblinghood.
And you were so young.
So it's just you acting on the feelings.
Just fair.
I'm glad that you're so socially emotionally competent that you can be like you were just

(11:20):
a little girl.
Especially because like those kids are so far in our history of like a character we
were for a short period of time that like I don't even relate to them anymore.
I just know their story and I feel for them.
So it's like everything to me is like I read a character book.
Like it's a chapter book of me and that person's not me anymore.
So like I don't harbor any negative memories of that.

(11:44):
Yeah.
Oh for sure.
It was interesting that you said that one of your memories was like how you felt like
a bully because like when we talk about sisterhood I would say the first things that come to
my mind are like the times we had sleepovers in our rooms and like being afraid together
by the ghosts in our house or like playing in the pool or taking baths together.

(12:04):
We took some bubble baths like in our house that like we moved to and like we had so much
fun that like she flipped her hair and I bit her head and knocked her tooth out or something.
Like a mermaid.
And then there was another time like we would play like games.
And then the water overflowed so much that it made it rain in the kitchen down below
us.
And I was like what are you doing?
And it was like tile floor.
I have no idea how it got through.

(12:25):
Oh it just seeped through.
Yeah.
We just were swashing around for so long that it like made it rain in the cabinets downstairs.
And that's fun.
So like I have good memories.
More than I think of those things.
Think about the night of.
We were on opposite ends of the tub and we were swimming past each other.
Like we were doing laps.
Like coy face or something.
Yeah.
Like bouncing eggs.
In the regular size bathtub.

(12:45):
Well that bathtub was actually bigger because it was you know Victorian.
Yes because I've been in other bathtubs since and it's never the same.
I remember that bathtub so well.
No bathtub has ever come close.
I promise you.
Because I took baths in it like high school.
Yeah me too.
Yeah.
Or right after college.
A good old double bath.
Yeah.
But no bathtub has come close.

(13:05):
When you talk about us being little girls having sleepovers in each other's rooms.
You mentioned that.
Yeah.
We grew up in.
I haven't shared that with the listeners yet.
We grew up not just in one home but both of the homes that we've lived in had paranormal
activity.
And so Alexis and I, our mom is a sensitive intuitive person.

(13:29):
And so us growing up and experiencing and witnessing things happen in the house or her
experiences of things.
Ghosts were always just a part of our reality.
And it was never something like I could have chose to believe in or not because we had
experiences that we would witness things.
Yeah I don't remember ever being taught about it being like what?
But I also never thought it was ghosts like that you see in movies or like white drapes.

(13:52):
I never like when we believed in ghosts I didn't think of that in my head.
I knew there was a difference between ghostbusters and like spiritual energy.
Because mom talked about it so much it was very like I knew what the difference was if
that makes sense.
And of course you do or don't believe it until you have your first experience.
And then after that you're like mom tell me all of it like I believe you know.
Because it actually happened to us.

(14:13):
So we would like hear things or yeah one of us would like feel energies and be afraid.
And just we would hide under our blankets.
Run you run to my room no you run to my room.
And we're afraid to run across the hall.
Yeah we'd be shouting each other come to mine.
So we would have sleepovers and remember hallway sleepovers?

(14:36):
We'd sleep in the hallway.
Do you remember that?
No.
We'd sleep in our bedrooms we'd make like a blanket on the floor and make up like bring
some toys up and make like a space.
We might have even done it with like our neighbors.
Yeah probably.
Memories just coming back right there.
Yeah just because it was like a new space we could create together.
Like a dorm room.
We loved playing dorm room.

(14:56):
Yeah playing college.
Yeah being roomies.
There were periods of childhood where we were where we were like friends and we would get
along and we would play games together and then there were periods of time where we would
be fighting and feuding.
But we're talking about when we would have sleepovers and that's where we would first

(15:18):
come up with the wish story.
I'm like I don't remember I don't like part of me is like I don't remember why or how
we started doing this you know where it came from but I know that we were just like fantasizing
together and we would talk about a dream or like something we wanted to happen and we

(15:41):
called it a wish story.
Yeah I remember it happened one night I was sleeping in your room which is now my room
and I think it was probably because like all American Ashley movies that we love so much
they always met boyfriends everywhere vacation they went on every character they were they
met boys.
You're right.
They were like their age and super fun and cool and so I think because we had a shared
love for American Ashley movies and the show and the video games and everything the show

(16:05):
cold the serious fashion line so that we wanted to be them so then we were like let's create
our own story so we just started talking out loud and they go his name will be this you
know mine will be this they'll be our age but they'll be brothers and then we just like
it went from there and then we're like they're gonna move in next door to us and then this
and it became such a thing that we start calling it like this is what we wish for so we start

(16:26):
calling it the wish story and we talked about it so much at different times I think we both
made an agreement that like any wish on any birthday or any shooting star has to be for
the wish story and we promised each other that and I did it.
Me too.
I did it.
I wish for the wish story.
Yeah.
And I wish for the wish story.
I wish for the wish story.
And it was like the silly and sometimes it'd be super detailed like we just like talk about

(16:49):
a date theoretically like I remember something about fountains and they're gonna take us
here and be like Paris and like we talked about the food we'd eat and like what they'd
say and then we just sit there and giggle like it was real like we'd write a book out
loud to each other and then imagine it so well that it felt like a little movie, a vignette
in our heads.
Yes.
Because it wasn't a time when your imagination was still pretty lit you know like you know

(17:10):
where everything could be real when kids that it made it real.
But like we didn't know but that's and that's like manifestation.
Yes.
I was just gonna say we didn't know it.
And then what happened?
The dreams came true.
Most of them.
The wish story came true.
Half of them came true.
So I remember we wished that our neighbors though we liked them we wished that they would

(17:46):
move out and that a family move would move in and they would have two brothers just because
we were two sisters.
Yep.
And that was like how we connected our wishes to real life.
Yeah.
With neighbors.
They'd move in next door.
Yes.
We wanted the boys to live next door.
So very good.
Because we wanted to be able to like send the messages from our windows or like.
Or just grow up next door to each other.

(18:06):
Yeah.
Like a cute you know.
Sneak in.
Why wouldn't you?
Totally.
Yeah.
So I guess when we first started doing this like I must have been like I could have been
like 12 maybe you would have been like 8 or 9 probably would have been the first time
that we started doing this together.
Maybe.
Maybe a little earlier for context.
But one day we came home from school and there was a for sale sign in our neighbor's yard

(18:27):
and we were like oh my gosh it's coming true.
And after waiting two months.
We told some of our friends and neighbors about it and like we wished hard on this like
it was not a secret like we believed it we talked about it like it was real.
Yeah.
I'm like and like imaginative energy is the energy that we need to even have right now
as adults to manifest in our lives.

(18:49):
We can tell the universe the crazy things we want.
Yeah.
And we don't need to even come up with the why.
As children we were like well our neighbors are going to move and so we just made it.
We filled in the blanks of the story we were writing to make it realistic.
And then so a couple moved in with a baby girl and we were like oh man oh well like
our dreams are crushed.

(19:09):
And then I don't know maybe a couple months later weeks or something.
It was like the day they were moving in there were lots of people helping them move in.
And so we couldn't.
I thought it was later.
I couldn't tell who was moving into the house because there was like they had their you
know aunts uncles or whatever like people helping them move in.
And so there were these two boys playing in the yard.

(19:30):
I felt like that was a different time.
But it doesn't matter.
I thought it was later on.
I'm like.
I think they were having a barbecue.
Some of it yeah.
I'm like.
Let's tell that story anyway.
So like okay so for me this family moved in.
And then all of a sudden one day outside of my bedroom window I looked down in the neighbor's
backyard and there were two boys playing with like a little girl.

(19:54):
And they're playing like croquet.
And me and my sister were like.
Because like two boys they looked like our age.
They looked super cute.
We were like oh my god.
So we just kept like watching them from your window.
And I guess we were obvious.
So like finally.
That's what Mary Kate and Ashley were like.
Do they know? put themselves out there.
W-W-M-K-A-D.

(20:14):
And they were like do you want to just come over and play with them?
And we were like.
And then you were grounded.
So like I had to go by myself.
And I couldn't like say no.
So I went.
I'm so proud of you.
And we made like I know because me today would not do that.
But even you as a child you normally wouldn't do that.
I don't know because it was the wish story.

(20:35):
I couldn't be not.
And you would have been like you have to go.
I was grounded.
I'm glad you remember that day.
Oh yeah.
Because I remember having to do something alone.
So then I'm up in your bedroom looking down at you on like a double date.
Yeah.
Oh you remember that?
You guys were outside.
Now I'm like yeah.
And I was embarrassed because you had to tell them I was grounded.

(20:55):
Why couldn't I come outside?
And they would know I was a bad girl.
Yeah.
Well I mean yeah.
So I mean that was just the beginning.
And then they randomly would come over and we kind of made friends with them over the
years.
What did you do that first day?
Croquet.
Oh you made croquet?
Yeah.
Because that's when he told me he liked Shaggy and was going to sing it for the school talent
show.
Yes.
Yes I remember that.

(21:15):
Which makes no sense.
I think mom and dad must have let me come out after a period of time because I remember
being there for the portion where he talked about the talent show.
So maybe that was a different occasion.
Yeah.
And he sang a couple different times.
And like nothing ever played out with it like what our wish story was.
But the fact that they were like two boys our ages that were related to the family.
It was like the universe was like well that's not for you but like A for effort.

(21:39):
Like keep trying and try another one.
And so after that we'd like let that go and we were okay with it.
And like we believed that like you could manifest something if you just.
Wished it hurt.
Put an emotion into it.
Yeah.
And so then I mean then I did that with like my future too.
Like manifesting a husband and a little partner.
Yeah.
I just it just shifted that energy shifted to a different way after that.

(22:01):
I never really thought about how my own perception of my childhood story being like a fairy tale
where I really identified with Cinderella or Belle or these like yes right.
The princesses of our time.
It was a way of redesigning the life that you didn't like right.
I never realized that like that was still creating yes like a fairy tale story or yes

(22:23):
it was like a way of yeah.
And so.
Look at us go.
Yeah.
I mean like that and beyond that experience once we met those two young men I think we
continued to manifest we didn't even call it manifesting yet.
But we still would talk about our dreams and wishes together in a way of believing that

(22:46):
like we could actualize something because we had the proof of that experience and because
you and I knew it was real because we went through it together.
Yes.
That's the best even like all like the ghost experiences or things from being as a child
or living in our home with mom and dad.
But like I always had you to validate the things that were happening sometimes because

(23:06):
we were sharing those experiences.
So beyond the wish story one of my favorite games that we would play with the other neighborhood
kids in our neighborhood was called the cool game.
Cool kids cool game.
We would call our friends we'd be like ring ring and they'd pick up we'd say hey do you
want to play the cool game.

(23:27):
And let me tell you friends but you could play the cool game too.
Anytime you're probably playing it right now if you're not driving if you're just relaxing
around the house you're playing it.
Yeah you're in it.
We the whenever we develop this game I remember I put on my baggiest pair of jeans.
I had the baddest ones I had some cool ones it was like right around the hippie days of

(23:48):
like Hanson and stuff where like you just wanted to be like I don't know it was like
1999 and like my jeans were just like three foot wide on each leg they were so big.
And we would put on our and tie dye tie dye and baggy pants that's what cool kids wore.
I probably looked like Hanson.
Yeah sunglasses if we could we'd get a soda because it was nice to have an accessory to

(24:11):
hold in your hand and we would go ring people's doorbells on our neighborhood street.
And the cool porches they had to have a cool sitting porch.
Had to have something you could sit on and if they weren't home or they didn't answer
the door great we wanted to sit.
We would sit on their porch and protect their house while they were gone.
Hang out on the we were protecting it.

(24:32):
We were lounge but like we didn't do anything we just sat there and then drank our sodas
and looked cool like we lived there.
I don't it's the strangest like we thought we owned the neighborhood we thought those
houses were like ours but we never as if these people's homes were ours.
We just were like and we knew them and they had kids so we were like if they answered
we would have knew what to say to them like it wasn't like sort of strangers like I felt

(24:53):
familiar with almost everyone in the neighborhood.
Yeah I know but kids don't own the way that we oh yeah we also don't understand like how
it's inappropriate but like yeah looking back obviously.
We wanted specifically to be able to sit on a banister where you could like lean your
back against something and have your legs up and look cool on the banister.
Imagine looking cool.
Like that's what we looked like that's what we thought we looked like but we probably

(25:16):
just looked like yes weirdos.
And if we if we couldn't be on someone's porch we would pick a curb somewhere we pick the
right corner to perch on.
So we played the cool game sometimes.
Remember the hospital game?
In the driveway?

(25:37):
Yes one of our neighbors had asthma and couldn't play with us sometimes and so on the one day
I remember she was having like an asthma attack of sorts we then developed a game where we
were all like in a hospital and we took out all the chase lounges.
Remember too there were hospital beds and we were like sneaking our way out and we like
made it into a play.
It was like a live action play we just like did it so well.

(25:59):
And our boyfriend nurses for rescue that's it.
It always ends that way.
Always turned into a Mary Kay and Ashley movie.
Classic would be having a lemonade stand.
We would have a lemonade stand every now and then.

(26:19):
Every hot, warm, warm, every warm and humid summer's day.
I don't know what you're saying.
I was trying to be witty and everything.
Oh okay.
I'm setting the like scene.
And one time I know the listeners will enjoy this.

(26:40):
We were doing a lemonade stand and my friend Kelsey was working the lemonade stand with
us but Allie and Kelsey were just not working up to snuff and so I fired them from the lemonade
stand.
Well you would just give us so many things to do and we'd be like but that's not what
we want to do.
We want to do this and she'd be like no you do this or you leave and we'd be like no.

(27:03):
I did the marketing.
We helped do this or that.
I made the lemonade.
I set up the table.
I think you got to sit at the table and we had to go do the walking.
I wanted you guys to ride your bikes and tell people lemonade was for sale.
I write lemonade sale on the sidewalk with arrows towards it and stuff and we did some
of that but it wasn't fun for us so then she fired us and we were like good sell it by

(27:23):
yourself and we always laugh about that because you know such an Enneagram 8 child just being
a boss.
We also would spend a lot of time barefoot as children climbing trees.
Or running around the neighborhood and the streets riding bikes barefoot.
Barefoot was a way of life.

(27:45):
And I remember our neighbor Sally.
She would always be barefoot and that's how it started.
So thank you Sally for giving us the freedom to feel like we could also kick off our shoes.
She was obviously a very grounded nature centered individual at the time and I don't know if
she is now.
That's what I say at the time.
I'm sure she is.

(28:05):
But before anything like that was the earthing or yoga or any of that existed she was just
very in touch with climbing trees.
It always existed but we didn't know it because we were young adults.
So I'm thankful for the ability to be able to ground as a kid and be able to be barefoot.

(28:26):
Definitely had so many mosquito bites on our legs and just we were earth of the earth children.

(28:51):
So something that I've touched on in previous episodes a bit about my childhood experience
with mom or feeling like I had a traumatic experience.
A group in a traumatic dysfunctional household.

(29:14):
I know and as I shared at the beginning of this episode already that I recognize now
that I was a bully to you and that I enacted a lot of aggression and violence towards you
because it was happening to me that I looked to kind of like having that food chain.

(29:34):
So what was some of your experience like having me as an older sister not the positives?
Right.
I was like the victim of your aggression.
I don't like the word victim perspective but being the person that's yeah.

(29:55):
Well I could start from like the you know memory that mom has of like one of the occasions
in which like she went too far with you.
She told me that I like put my hand on her face or tugged on her clothes or something.
I put my hand on her and she looked at me and she knew that I was asking her to stop
and me doing that made her realize that like I was witnessing it and like she saw herself

(30:18):
from a third person and was like I need to pull myself away and like she took me out
of the room with her and like let you be and then I helped calm her down and like I don't
remember this but like that set me up for who I was supposed to be and I think it helped
start the storyline in my head of who you were to me because then that means I grew
up with the energy of you and mom at the same time and I knew you.

(30:41):
Like I knew the feelings that could come from you and her even as a baby like feeling it.
You were a toddler.
I was in the middle of our anger and the intensity.
So from the jump this was like in me like written in me to like know how to respond
or to find out how to be the calmer down person I guess.
So like growing up with you becoming my abuser after seeing that done to you felt normal

(31:07):
and like I knew we had friends with siblings that like gotten fights and like wrestled
and boys wrestle and but like I didn't I guess I didn't ever really realize that like they
weren't as physical as we were and like I saw girl siblings hit each other too but like
I do feel like you and I got to extremes where it isn't normal and especially for girls to
do that but like what was it like for me?

(31:31):
Yeah I think it felt normal but it wasn't but it felt normal at the time like I knew
it was my sister and it's weird because we can tell these stories where I know some of
our really good memories are intertwined with like the fighting probably the same day.
Like our ability to flip flap on like liking each other and not liking each other and like
threatening each other's lives was like I don't know how we did it but like you know

(31:52):
we survived.
Yes and like it was normal for us to know that like that wasn't you all the time.
I knew you weren't a rager all the time otherwise we would not have been friends we would not
like ever.
I knew there was other parts of you.
Right but there were other parts of you that were fine so it's like I trusted you and disliked
you at the same time when you did things to me but like I guess I didn't think it was
weird that you were doing them because like I saw them done to you.

(32:13):
I didn't realize it was transference but I just thought well this is normal which is
interesting because I never did it to anybody else.
I never did it to a friend I never did it to anyone smaller than me but.
I guess to like anger was my only emotion where I was like happy feeling normal and

(32:34):
then I would rage I'd be enraged and I could really inside probably be feeling sad or left
out or jealous but I only had a coded as rage.
And it was quick like she could snap and then all of a sudden like hit me or yeah.
And like when I think back to like little Rachael and being so angry I have the compassion

(33:00):
now and awareness to know I was just doing what I was taught and because when our mom
was angry she would hit me she would use physical violence as her method to try to control me
and subdue me physical discipline.
Or to fear her to make you.
She wanted me to fear her.

(33:20):
And this is exactly what you did to me.
And so I with her she controlled me and like you know had that power over me.
And so I looked at you as like well you're yeah littler than me or like I just was like
well I can then do it to you or something.
I was taught when you're mad it's okay to hit somebody and rage.

(33:41):
Yeah when you're mad it's okay to push it's okay to shove.
I was hit on the daily on the regular too.
And it wasn't until I was 12 and I was in sixth grade I was fighting with my best friend
Kelsey on the playground.
And I think I shoved her I pushed her I shoved her and she grabbed me she grabbed both my

(34:04):
shoulders and she kneaded me in the stomach.
And I ran away and I was like in pain and embarrassed.
But that is the experience I remember as a very pivotal moment for me when I learned
oh I can't hit my friends.
Because they could do stuff back to you that you're not going to like.
I couldn't do that back to you.

(34:24):
Kelsey was taller than you too.
Like she was a plan.
She was an only child too.
So she just was like I'm not afraid of anybody.
Well she yeah she I needed a friend who could stand to me.
But also because I needed to learn that lesson or I would have been violent and aggressive
with other children probably.
Right so the only way you know I was the only person I think that you were violent with
until later on when you were older.

(34:45):
But then even with partners.
I don't think you were with friends.
No I was the only time that I ever was aggressive with a friend was that moment when you were
on the playground.
You were the closest people in your life.
So then after that I was like well but just got to keep it in my household then.
Because we were still aggressive with each other or fought you know.
Wrestling.
Even in high school when I was in high school.

(35:06):
I don't yeah I guess I don't remember so much but maybe.
I feel like it was mostly elementary school but maybe.
I mean I'm sure you still try to hit me or shove me or push me down the stairs.
There was like because there was always when we were young there was a period of time during
the week where our we'd get home from school.
Our mom would go to work and we were waiting for our dad to come home from work.

(35:27):
Like in between.
So there was a window of time sometimes sometimes like a half hour maybe an hour maybe two where
we were unsupervised.
And that would be yeah time where like sometimes that hell would break loose.
And we would have crazy conflicts and.
About who knows what like computer time.
Like really seriously what was it about.
I don't know.

(35:48):
We eat my food.
Like I have no idea what we could even get physical about but we did.
Every day yeah we were just yeah siblings.
Going into each other's rooms sneaking clothes.
I definitely loved to borrow your clothes when you worked at Charlotte Roos.
Yeah well and I was older then so at that point like we knew trade.
But when I was younger I was like terrified to go in your room.

(36:10):
I felt like I was on like candid camera.
Like a spirit was watching me or something.
Every time I stepped in that room was all eyes were on me.
And I'd just be like I'm just going to grab my brush.
It's mine.
Like I don't know.
Just because I knew I wasn't supposed to be there.
I felt like trespassing.
Oh yeah I never felt that way in your room.
Of course you didn't.
That's what I said I was a good kid.

(36:30):
Because it was my house and then you were born and I had a share with you.
So actually both rooms were mine.
I'm just kidding.
I don't know I just didn't feel like that.
I'm like telling the ghosts like.
Just so you know I'm getting my brush.
My sister stole my shirt.
And I'm like.
Trying to dig it out of your hamper or something.
As if like I owe someone a reason why I'm in your room.
Yeah because I wasn't a snake.

(36:52):
That's insane.
You were but I was not.
The guilt.
The guilt you felt or something.
Even though you were getting your own item.
The shame of getting my own item.
Yes.
As if you could walk there in any minute.
Remember when we had those dangly like retro things.
Beads.
Any from our door.
Yes.
That was an alarm system.
Yes.
It was like you know retro like.
You know 60's like looking.

(37:12):
Early 2000's.
Yeah.
It was like black and like mirrors.
But it was like heavy heavy plastic pieces.
And when you walked through it was like.
Like you could hear the whole house.
You could hear the whole house.
And I would know.
From like downstairs.
Like I could hear like one jingle.
And I bet she wanted to pay to enter her room.
That's a totally different story.
I know.
But.
Because she wanted to be like Lara Croft.
And so.
I was like.
I was like.
I was like.
I was like.

(37:33):
I was like.
I was like.
I was like.
I was like.
I was like.
I was like this.
You know.
And so she was didn't know how to be a millionaire.
So she started making people pay a toll.
To enter her room.
I was ingenuous.
I didn't know what that meant.
I.
I.
Ingenious.
No it's not a real name.

(37:53):
The ingenuity.
No the ingenuity.
Ingenuity.
But what do you say when it's like talking about a person.
Like an adjective.
Ingenuous.
I was in.
I don't know, I was creative.
I knew what I wanted and I knew the only way to get there was...
I think it's ingenuity.
Ingenuity, yeah.

(38:14):
But you...
Okay.
How ingen...
When you describe ingenuitess of you...
The word will come to us later.
Listeners, you'll know by now.
Ingenuitess.
Ingenuity.
I was ingenu...
You had ingenuity.
Yeah, okay.
You had ingenuity.
Yeah, yes, yes, yes.
I think that's the word we're looking for.
Ingenuity, ingenuity.

(38:36):
Something I want to touch on is something that we've talked about before is the concept
of living in a shadow or like that you were living in my shadow.
Can you talk about that a little bit?
Yeah.
I'd say...
I mean, I always kind of was, but I feel like maybe middle or sixth grade, I felt that you

(38:57):
got more love and attention for your talents in terms of being an actress and singing and
voice lessons.
It was like you had a skill that was good enough to...
People in our family wanted to help you get better and it just seemed to come naturally.
At one point, I remember writing Papa a card and I was like, I'm going to do voice lessons

(39:19):
too and I want to be an acting too.
I read that and it makes me sad because it's still summer.
It was in a photo album they saved.
But it was just this period where I just wanted to be so much like you to be loved and to
be social and to have friends.
I joined CYT and did one real play and then I did some camps and some classes, but that
only reminded me that I was your little sister because everybody you met was like, oh, Rachael's

(39:44):
little sister.
I looked like you sometimes.
I sounded like you.
I don't even think people knew my name sometimes.
They just knew I was your little sister and I wasn't as good and I couldn't sing as well.
People might think that I would be the other one.
They could have two sisters that are really good.
Even in school, every time I started in school year, if that teacher knew you, they would
recognize my last name during attendance first day.

(40:06):
Oh, you, Rachael's sister.
I'm like, yes.
Then they assume I'm going to be super smart and cool and funny like you were with the
teachers you liked in high school.
Then they find out I'm just me.
Then my first job that wasn't working with mom was at the family restaurant that you
were hosted at.
You trained me and then when you left, it was very clear to me that I was not as good
as you and that they were hoping that I would be because you were great and that it was

(40:29):
like, I don't want to lose you.
They didn't want to let me go so they just drew it out until I worked there one day.
Finally, I was like, I'm quitting.
I was terrified.
He's like, okay.
I was like, okay, bye.
That is what they would do.
He was just nice but I just wasn't you.
It's like so many ways in my life.
Being a host is not a job for a shy gal.

(40:51):
No, I'm not smiley and social and people drain me.
People make you like, woohoo, energy and I'm like, go away from me.
I forget who I am when I wrong people too much and I like the downtime to charge.
For me, it was just like there were certain periods in my life when I had to be like,
I'm not her and that's okay and deal with whatever that felt like.

(41:11):
If it meant that I didn't think Papa loved me as much, fine.
For a while, I'd get angry about it, mad, where I realized I shouldn't be treated that
way even if I didn't like singing so then like I got angry.
But yeah, and that's not favorites, just connection.
But as a kid, you feel that the distance but you don't know why.

(41:32):
You take it personal and I haven't, I've only spoken about Papa so little on the podcast
but my mom's dad, my Papa, he was just my guy.
He was my best friend, my safe adult that I really needed and I could tell that I was

(41:54):
like his favorite granddaughter or I could tell that we bonded or we were very similar
and I knew that he thought I was special and in my life story, I really needed an adult
safe person to believe in me and to encourage me but I understand how because he supported
my voice lessons or got me into things that you were looking for a hobby or something

(42:19):
to do.
I related him to your success and also wanted that for myself and I wanted to be making
someone proud all the time and having people be like, wow, about me but I was always like
talent person level in every way of my life.
I was in the background dancing or just wearing weird clothes and walking by.

(42:39):
That's what I had like talking about a shadow that you wanted to spotlight and so therefore
eyes in the shadows.
Whereas there are so many things that are worthy to celebrate in children and hobbies
and gifts that are not performative.
There doesn't have to be something that kids do on stage.
But that was something specifically our grandpa knew what to deal with.
He knew it was something he loved too.

(43:00):
He liked musicals and I liked musicals.
Both of them liked musicals and I connected with Grandma more.
She liked all my weird hobbies and supported them and she was just down for the roller
coaster ride which was my hobby life.
So everything beyond so.
Looking back everything was perfect in the way of like it was divine in the good and
the bad.
But yeah, living in a shadow was tough.

(43:23):
Finally finding yourself after that is really amazing.
When I first got a job at Charlotte Roos at Woodfield and worked there for years I finally
found my identity as an employee.
I was great.
People wanted me to be the manager.
They asked me to be an assistant manager.
They didn't want me to leave.
And then I went to a different job and started as a crew member and then became the store
manager like within a year.
People gave me because I was good and I was consistent and I showed up and I liked who

(43:47):
I was as a person.
The way I talked to people and the way that I felt like I fit in.
They didn't know my sister.
It was a brand new world outside of school and out of their social group that was like
our friends that didn't know me and it could be me without an expectation of knowing anything
about me.
So it was really nice.
That's like what was the cool thing.
That's so important.
Yeah because what I didn't think about is that yeah all of our friends.

(44:08):
All of our people.
Everyone knew you first or more or better.
And I always got to have the experience of going places first and being older.
So like it was always new to me.
And then you brought me around everywhere.
I was like you showed me the social life.
And I never had a job in retail.
So you are the only one.

(44:30):
I was going to say that I also had that experience of feeling like I was living in your shadow.
Mine?
Yes.
Yes.
But it was more of the behavior sense I think when we were little girls.
Is that I just was mad at you because you and mom got along.
It was so easy for you.

(44:50):
And the way that you felt Papa treated me different or you felt like you needed to earn
love or wanted to get the validation from him.
Like I was seeking that out from mom and wanting.
I just didn't understand how so easy for you to just be good because I was so tempered
and so angry all the time that I am even now as an adult.

(45:13):
I still have a very quick connection to anger within my body or I can feel when my energy
is shifting now and I'm more regulated now.
But I am wired hardwired in that way.
And so I would look at you and just feel like why is she so good?
Why is she so calm and just nice and sweet?

(45:35):
All these things that I just felt I couldn't be.
And I felt like it wasn't like a skill I could learn.
I felt like it was like the way I was.
And I felt very just I broke it and there was something wrong with me that I couldn't
figure out how to be good.
And so I definitely felt like I was in your shadow in our household that I couldn't live

(45:57):
up to you.
And mom probably said things like why can't you be nice like your sister?
Why can't you X, Y, Z like your sister?
But in the outer world you were always feeling that way in school and in activities and stuff.
And so I just think that's kind of interesting that we both have that experience in a very
different way.

(46:17):
What were you going to say?
How we started being friends again in high school like after we grew up probably after
middle school.
I feel like by the time you were in middle school and I was in middle school we didn't
put our hands on each other very much.
And we went from like because you matured obviously you're like two and a half years
older than me.
So like you were already like a teen when I was still kind of like young.

(46:39):
And so I think at some point we kind of stopped that young sibling rivalry relationship in
terms of physicalness.
And like and then we kind of moved on to like you being busy and you doing things and that's
kind of just becoming regular sisters sharing a household.
And then in early high school for me I think it was like my sophomore year you were a freshman.
When did you start with the group?

(47:00):
That's what I think we should talk about.
I was going to say I remember being a senior in high school and you being a freshman.
We actually ended up in a creative writing class together where your friends were there.
You came like second part of this.
So I was already in that class.
It's like first first half of the year down me and my two friends, my besties were in

(47:24):
this class like everyone didn't they somehow some of them knew I was your sister because
they knew you was a bunch of all different.
I had been in creative writing before.
I had taken the class.
And like some of these kids were in your grade like it could be all four years could be in
this class.
And then half of the year she's like I'm done with photography.
I'm going to because my teacher was bullying me.
Yeah.
My teacher was not for sure.
It was not a safe learning.

(47:45):
She had to do my class half of the year and then it became the Rachael show.
Her best friend Kelsey.
So it was me and my three best like two best friends and her best friend.
They were like loud and fun and silly and goofy and performers.
And it was like shut up.
Sit down.
That's how I felt.
And like shut up.
Sit down.
Like brooding and staring at you.

(48:05):
Like you know some other people would want you to be quiet too because you guys were
just bubbly and goofy and it was annoying to all like the other kids who were like be
quiet.
Email was a thing then and we were the same with like you know.
I get it.
That was like a thing.
Our personality is very Glinda.
And so it changed the vibe of the class which was still fun but it like so little fun that

(48:26):
I thought you were annoying.
And I at that time.
I didn't want to be in your shadow anymore.
You didn't even want to be in the same room.
You didn't want people to know that we were related.
It's like you were embarrassed to play.
There was no way to get around it but I just was tired of it.
And at that time I really wanted to be your friend and I was at the end of high school
and I was like I'm going to be your friend.
I'm going to be your friend.
I'm going to be your friend and I was like I'm going to be your friend and I was like
yeah I wanted you to like me and I wanted to be friends with your friends.

(48:48):
Yeah I just didn't understand why you didn't want to be my friend.
Because I wasn't very nice sometimes.
But then.
We were different at that point.
There was a period of time where I was deciding whether or not I wanted to go to community
college or if I wanted to go away to school.

(49:09):
And I remember I think financially our family kind of decided I needed to go to community
college and that was where I needed to be or I had to go.
And I was mad about it and I resented that at the time.
But in hindsight when I look back on my story or our story I'm really glad that I went to

(49:30):
community college because staying home those two extra years gave us the chance to be friends.
Gave us the opportunity to reconcile.
And that I think is when our friendship began.
For like our adult friendship was like an infancy for real I would say so.
Because I don't know where we would be now without those years.

(49:51):
Maybe we would have gotten there if I came and visited you.
And maybe when you came home but it wouldn't have been the same.
And I think maybe and I don't know why but it was like when we were probably coming into
ourselves and who we were and me not being at the high school anymore really helped that.
But we were able to just meet each other as young women and start a friendship.

(50:17):
And we definitely were not having conflict as much and I viewed you like an ally.
I knew that there were times in the house where like you saw things happen between mom
and I and you would advocate for me and you would stand up for me or you would talk to
her or you know help her to see the truth or you know have some rational thinking or

(50:41):
something and so I knew that there were times that you could come to my rescue.
And so I knew that I wasn't an enemy as well.
That you were a good mediator.
And dad was someone who was like quiet sometimes like most of the time.
Quiet like I'd say like 90% of the time and then like maybe even 95 and then 5% he would

(51:01):
just like yell and then it would be terrifying.
But like most of the time he didn't stand up or say anything when like you were mom
or at your fights or things like that until it really affected him.
And so like I think I knew I had to be that person that played not devil's advocate but
like rationalize both sides and saying like yeah you feel this way which is fine but like
so they feel this way and like you need to figure it out like you know or just like make

(51:24):
it stop because sometimes it would get so bad like when we were older that I would be
like mom stop.
Like I just would scream to like level myself up with you both and to let it know be like
it's not okay from the outside.
Like seeing that is just as traumatic as being not to me.
That was as traumatic as it got for me watching it.
It might as well have been me.
I could feel it.

(51:44):
I could see your face.
I could see like all of it.
I could see her and I could see her spit and like there's things I remember from the other
side from watching it.
Yeah and so it's like what were you saying?
I got lost in the trauma of the trauma but you know for real so what was that?

(52:05):
I wanted to talk about how we became friends.
Yes okay.
And that was a shift because you weren't my enemy anymore.
You were also my ally.
You were my friend.
Right.
Okay it was just like a memory side story.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So I think that's how we became kind of supporting each other because like yeah.
I guess for me like that was what the shift was for me and I got involved with a Christian

(52:32):
theater group, an adult group and in this cast that I was in it was the cast of Thoroughly
Modern Millie.
We started a Bible study, some friends and I and we called ourselves the table flippers
from that story in the market where Jesus got angry.
Yeah and that story made me feel validated that like even Jesus was angry sometimes because

(52:57):
I was angry all the time.
Sometimes you cause havoc for a good reason.
Yes advocacy standing up for others.
Yeah.
I remember in my own timeline that was a time where I was really talking to God and wanting
God to change my heart and I didn't want to be so angry and I really wanted to start being
different and I could observe my mom or observe the house but I knew that like I don't have

(53:24):
to be angry.
I can be different and so I was really actively trying to change my heart and change myself
and I was doing it in a very spiritual way and finding myself in a new community with
new people that didn't know me from high school because we were all in college at this time
and so I was able to kind of start fresh with new people that were like minded and had similar

(53:49):
beliefs.
And so that's do you want to talk about?
Yeah I just feel like you got really close to them and maybe did that Bible study that
one first year and then the next year they were doing it again and Rach was like I remember
I think it was summer before I went to junior year maybe even senior and Rach was like I

(54:09):
don't know exactly but you were like you know I've been going to like Bible study and like
I really want you to come like all these people are so great and they're always telling me
all these stories and of course I'm sure you updated me before you asked me to but she's
like I want you to come and I was immediately like no this is a group of people who were
from the CYT group that we grew up and then I was always your shadow and so immediately
I was like no I don't want to like it just doesn't sound fun to me I don't want to meet

(54:32):
more friends that I'm Rachael's sister and she's like well I really want to like you
know make amends or like get better and show you that I'm better and I want to try to be
your friend and I said like oh and then you said and also like I'm afraid you're not gonna
I'm not gonna be with you in heaven and like I love you because where she was believing
in her faith at this point like we had been in the church as younger but this was kind

(54:53):
of like our choice to go back as adults young adults and that made me snap like to hear
her say that I was just basically like how dare you how gross that like she would even
be in her high horse like that to say that like because I'm not going to her group or
believing exactly what she's learning that I might not be there with her when we die
but it's like before we started recording today Ali reminded me of that situation and

(55:17):
I was like I can't even remember that I would say that because I think it might have been
your last ditch effort to like convince me why I should go because you didn't want to
lead with that but you also were kind of mad that I said no yeah but I just I like I don't
think I said it just to sway you but it was one of my fears at the time but to me like

(55:38):
now my faith and my spirituality is so far evolved from believing that or thinking that
that's how heaven works right that I just am like so sad for like that version of me
that was like preaching at you and worried for your salvation right and not using it
to get you to come but yeah I was really afraid and sad and it offended me so much that I

(56:01):
told you I didn't want to be your friend and I didn't need to be your friend and I didn't
care and I was like in my heart like I was perfectly at peace like not having you as
a friend like I remember laying on the hammock mama did we're on vacation that week and I
was like I really don't like I am so mad that she said that like we were home alone or something
no they were like playing Roma cube or something we got in a big fight and I came outside and

(56:21):
like laid on the hammock and like you know whatever was doing whatever I was doing and
just being like I really I'm so mad at her cable if she said that like we're done we're
through like I really don't need to be her friend ever again like cuz we've gone through
so many up and downs like at this point like I knew all the bad parts about you mostly
and this is before you did change for real for real so like I don't really believe you
and I also was just like yeah I didn't want to and for some reason you probably apologized

(56:45):
and we came around and I went I was just gonna say why do you think you came yeah you just
think you took a chance I was afraid of my soul burning in hell I believed you that's
why I was really mad at you it's like no it's just right so no I don't remember I don't
know I just went with the promise of cute boys yeah you know I do remember no you're

(57:07):
older than me no I'm just making it up for some reason I thought why not and like Elise
was going and I knew some of those and they were like my friends so I went and it ended
up like changing my life for that at that period of time for sure we became friends
because we were and my faith began again you know my own faith not the childhood faith

(57:28):
that you're forced to believe so I mean it was yeah it was good I think that probably
was the heart of what it was for me at that time in the faith way is that Allie and I
grew up going to church our parents were our Sunday school teachers our grandfather was
a pastor and so being spiritual and religious and faith being a part of our lives it was

(57:50):
for a very long time when we were older and our middle school our family started going
to different churches and trying to find a new church to go to or there was a long period
of time where we weren't going I was pursuing going to a new church by myself going to the
mega church the Chicagoland mega church yeah and I was experiencing God for myself and

(58:14):
experiencing yeah real true relationship right with spirit and that is what I know I wanted
to share and why I really wanted because we had experienced ghosts together I knew that
you would experience spirit you right but I at the time you know just whatever called
it God but I think that that was part of my desire right I kind of think it brought you

(58:37):
joy and it filled you so much you wanted to share it you know I'm sorry that I good
intentions I mean I went so I worked out you know and you know somewhere in that like I
forgave you for the childhood stuff and like most times I forget it like it feels like
we're talking about someone I don't know like past me and past you like I either blocked

(58:58):
it out or I forgave you to the point where like I don't even like it's not really a part
of me like I does not hold a hold on me that like you abuse it to me anymore you know I
don't know I remember having a specific conversation about it at some point for me because it was
like I at that time didn't realize that I was doing it because of like my childhood
experience I still thought I'm angry and I struggle with this and I just kind of thought

(59:24):
that was what my sin in this lifetime is just being angry yeah and so I know I apologize
to you right and I I wanted to make that effort of like acknowledging what I put you through
because I knew I needed to I needed that for myself to move forward and I know that even
if there are times where if I were to remember something from those days I know that you

(59:45):
wouldn't hold it against me yeah but so what else did we do at that time we would we would
be driving to Bible study we'd be talking we had sister dinners like once a week when
we could because you were really busy and always was doing stuff and had jobs before
me and could drive before me so I remember like you worked you made money and like that's

(01:00:08):
when like you could go get food anywhere you wanted it was like the boom of things that
weren't just fast food like the boom of Chipotle you know what I mean like new restaurants
right try it would red robin like things that were like we never went to his kids are like
didn't even know existed and so you'd be like you want to come with me I'd be like I don't
have money and you'd be like well I'll pay and like if she wanted to go eat and had no
friends to go with she'd be like well buy my sister so as long as she paid for me I

(01:00:31):
could go and then so she's just like well if I want her there I'll pay which I think
is a normal thing for siblings to do but like so you were just like well you know between
my school and this and this and that when you're ready to see you're like how about
we have like sister dinner it sounds like okay so we would try like any restaurant like
once a week for so forever other week whatever when we could and that I think helped start

(01:00:53):
like I was having sit-down conversations outside of the home that was like fun and enjoyable
and like maybe we act that's like when a friendship was really like worked into life because we
weren't at home anymore we just like friends like we met up like friends but you drove
me there you know but it's when it felt like I felt like two friends giggling and talking
about things that weren't being sisters yeah

(01:01:25):
Through our time in Bible study together we did a study about love and this pastor speaker
had made this series back in the day Rob Bell taught about the Hebrew meanings for the word
love that there is Raya which is like love you have with your friends ahava which is

(01:01:47):
like soulmate divine partnership love and dode which is sensual and erotic love and
he spoke about how they're all like little flames and when you have them together you'll
have like a bigger fire it will keep burning yeah but if you only have one it will die
out and not be as strong it was a whole metaphor but it was a really beautiful like story yeah

(01:02:11):
and so from us growing up with the wish story and really talking about love and partnership
and what we wanted yep and obviously Mary-Kate and Ashley had boyfriends in every single
movie like we mentioned earlier so like it fed into our dreams of DC style dating but
like so then when we got older we realized like almost time of like our Christianity

(01:02:36):
and our experience with the faith was like waiting for marriage and I mean all of like
dating was wrapped up and like Christianity at this time purity culture was like an all
time high ring by spring that one book like when God writes your love story was like as
a peak all of these things were coming out about like you know don't be a crumbled rose

(01:02:58):
for your partner your future husband it was like so much talk about your future husband
or wife than how you should act now according to honor them which like I wasn't necessarily
super like keen on all that specific and like do's and do nots but like it made me think
differently about the men that I liked or the men that I would let entertain me and

(01:03:21):
it changed the way I thought about dating and who I want to spend my time and energy
on and so it made me really imagine kind of like the wish story like about my husband
and like who I wanted for me and like I believed in God and I believe that he was creating
this person for me and that this longing that I had to finally find someone who wanted to
hold me or be with me and like liked me liked me that was a genuine person was like so strong

(01:03:46):
that I was like I know God has someone out there because I feel it inside of me like
so bad and you felt that way too and so then we listened to shared music and we just like
drive around late nights driving and like remember and we just put on like Jordan Sparks
and I remember all these music that was like really in Nora Jones and like just sing about
that like hurt our hearts just haven't met you yet just like two things and so I think

(01:04:09):
it became something that we bonded on not only as kids but when we got older it wasn't
a wish story anymore it was like God's story and like that kind of goes with what I read
at your wedding the speech talking about that and like how we just found a different way
we were like oh we weren't wish story we were creating a story with God and so then it became
for like at least 10 years of my life was about like who does God want me to be with

(01:04:31):
and who's my husband like is he mirroring him and is he looking like in God's image
and all these things yeah so I think that was something we both did intentionally yeah
I was definitely dating for marriage and picking partners or allowing myself to develop friendships
or relationships with people only if I thought they had the perspective for yeah marriage

(01:04:54):
and you talked about that and in your other episode about like things you were writing
and desiring for and I was very much the same and I think the structure of the environment
we grew up in like as children and the movies and the shows and also like the Christianity
groups and the theater groups that we did also talked about it a lot and so I think
all the everything in all culture like yeah everything in our community everything lined
up with the story that we were telling ourselves and so it kind of fit which I think is super

(01:05:20):
interesting.
So from being little girls and wishing upon a star with the wish story to co-authoring
a story with spirit about divine love yeah love has always been a big theme in our sister
hood yeah as well as partnerships yeah something our grandpa would always say to us when we

(01:05:45):
would be feuding as little girls he would say one day you're going to be best friends
for life and you're going to have boys lined up around the block and we'd say no okay maybe
just line up around the block tell us more but he I love that with that sentence too
because he was manifesting for us to love each other yeah and to be loved and those

(01:06:09):
are the things that I he'd always say that when we're like arguing in the backseat yeah
you're gonna be best friends one day guys yeah yeah yeah he said it enough it became
true and I'm glad that he got to see that part of our friendship too yeah but I think
that's something that we wanted to share with this is that like similar relationships can

(01:06:30):
be a tumultuous and maybe be in one place when you're younger but how it can really
age your relationships can age as you age and mature and change and there's like exits
there's like really big moments in which like you could have fixed something or maybe you
should have or didn't or whatever but like there's always times of re-entry as well like
because we could have fallen apart so many times for good and we didn't and there's many

(01:06:52):
reasons why maybe we should have but we didn't and then there's many reasons that brought
us together and like and forgiveness and like yeah something that I would say is if to any
listener if you know that you've made mistakes in your sibling relationship like I can say
I knew I had that even if it's years later sometimes it is worth getting something off

(01:07:16):
your chest or your conscience and expressing an apology to a sibling or a loved one and
it can help you feel a lot better to be able to talk and unpack and process your childhood
a little bit with your siblings.
Also I think it's helpful as we became older and explored psychology both in coursework

(01:07:40):
for us in college that we both learned a lot more about family systems and structures and
we've learned about the trauma of a family system and how that those interact and so
you and I both did a lot of learning in this lifetime about family structure.

(01:08:00):
Things can heal and it's always worth trying or if you think it's you know something I
think that we're both aware of is that you we could grow up in the same house together
but we didn't have the same parents and we didn't have the same household.
The home that we grew up in was just very different and so I think it is worth for anybody

(01:08:21):
that has got a sibling yeah to unpack your childhood a little bit and to just talk back
about some experiences you had because it could be really eye-opening to be able to
hear your siblings perspective about situations that transpired.
Yeah I think that's a really good point.
I'm very thankful for you and I always tell people that I think you looked down on earth

(01:08:46):
and you saw mom and dad and me and you knew that girl's gonna need some help and my volunteer
tribute.
It was instant like he was like he didn't give me a second choice.
Just kidding.
Going once, going twice.
And I mean I also think our souls created our plan before you even left to come to earth.

(01:09:09):
You know what I mean like you were just waiting for me and then my entrance was a big wave
in your life because it was meant to be.
And that's something that has definitely taken a lifetime to process but I can say I know
that I wouldn't want my life to have been any different because I love the woman I am

(01:09:30):
today and so I wouldn't change our childhood because I know that you and I wouldn't be
where we are right now as best friends and sisters having gone through all that we did
and the healing that we did if it was different if anything was different.
So I'm thankful for our story and I'm glad that we wrote each other in it and got through

(01:09:52):
it together.
My sister and I created today's affirmations based on some of the things perhaps the inner
children within us needed to hear when we were young.
I forgive myself for past mistakes.
I did the best I could with the tools I had.

(01:10:23):
I was not created to live in a shadow.
I am my own starlight.
Let's do those one more time.
I forgive myself for past mistakes.
I did the best I could with the tools I had.

(01:10:53):
I was not created to live in a shadow.
I am my own starlight.
Thank you Al Cabal.
Thank you Al's for joining me today.
Thank you for having me as your first guest.

(01:11:16):
What an honor.
Thanks Mary Kate.
You're welcome Ashley.
Without me where would you be?
Just kidding.
Seriously babe I ask myself that all the time.
So thanks for being here and thanks for sharing your heart and your soul and time and space
with me.
I love you Sissy.
You're welcome.
All music has been provided with permission.

(01:11:41):
Intro music by Big Wonder Music.
Check out Big Wonder on Spotify and iTunes.
Closing credits performed by Fine Young Gamers.
I wanna be brave.
I wanna be myself.
I don't wanna wake up every day as someone else.
I wanna be strong.
I wanna be brave.
I wanna be myself.
I wanna be brave.
I wanna be strong.
I wanna be brave.
I wanna be strong.

(01:12:01):
I wanna be brave.
I wanna be strong.
I wanna be brave.
I wanna be strong.
I wanna be soft.
I want every single thing that I've been dreaming of.
But that takes courage.
And that takes time.
And a single moment to decide to change your mind.
The thing that I've been dreaming of
But that takes courage
And that takes time
And a single moment to decide to change your mind

(01:12:23):
If you don't like the road you are on
Just turn around
You too will start living a radically different life
You wanna be radical, don't you?
Free in all the ways it matters
With nothing left to prove

(01:12:47):
Lose yourself to find yourself
To find out what is true
Before anything was something
It first had to be a dream
And dreamers have to dream the world
That no one else can see
Two eyes closed and one heart open
Straight for destiny
Following the path you chose

(01:13:10):
Before you chose to be

(01:13:32):

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