June 14, 2022 • 41 mins
Flag Day Special — The Untold Story of Flint’s Civil War Soldiers and the battle flags that led them through America’s defining conflict.
In the American Civil War, 90,000 Michigan soldiers marched into battle. Among them were the men of the 10th Michigan Infantry Regiment, organized in Flint, Michigan and mustered into federal service in February 1862. Their service carried them across the war’s most brutal frontlines — Tennessee, Mississippi, Georgia, and North Carolina — ultimately marching with Sherman to the Sea and helping secure Union victory with the fall of Atlanta.
This episode features David Norris, whose great-grandfather Talmon C. Owen fought with the 10th Michigan Infantry. Their regiment suffered 327 casualties, including officers and enlisted men lost to battle and disease. These were Flint’s sons — mill workers, farmers, tradesmen — who shaped the future of the nation.
🎖️ The Battle Flags That Led Them
Before deploying, the Flint soldiers received handmade silken battle flags, gifted by the women of Flint. These flags were not symbolic; they were tactical lifelines on chaotic Civil War battlefields, guiding regiments in smoke, blood, and confusion.
After the war, surviving flags were returned to the State of Michigan and entrusted to the governor. Many never made it home.
🏛️ Save The Flags — Michigan’s Preservation Project
Michigan’s Save The Flags initiative preserves 240 historic battle flags from:
- The Civil War
- The Spanish-American War
- World War I
Nearly 150 flags have been adopted for conservation by families, schools, civic groups, and historians. Adoption helps fund research, preservation, and public display of these irreplaceable artifacts.
Learn more or find a flag to adopt through this statewide initiative.
🕊️ Flint’s Legacy
The story of the 10th Michigan Infantry is more than military history — it’s a Flint story. It is a story of working-class courage, community pride, and the sacrifices that shaped America long before the challenges of the 20th and 21st centuries.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_03 (01:57):
Michigan we have to fly.
SPEAKER_01 (02:09):
That was singer, folk singer Neil Woodward, who
sings Peachtree Creek, a songwritten by David Norris of
Flint, in honor of hisgreat-grandfather, Talman Owens,
who fought in the Flint's 10thInfantry Regiment in the Civil
(02:30):
War, in the battle at PeachtreeCreek.
Peachtree Creek, of course, wasthe significant battle, critical
one, that resulted in the fallof Atlanta during the Civil War,
ultimately led to the end of theCivil War.
Our episode today is a fantasticreview of the city of Flint and
(02:54):
the area's involvement in theCivil War and the effort by the
state of Michigan and others tosave the history of our flags.
There are battle flags, 240battle flags, which were taken
into the Civil War by thosebrave soldiers in Michigan, some
(03:15):
90,000 of them, who fought theConfederacy and won the war.
At the end of the war, they cameback to Michigan and presented
their battle flags to thegovernor who was from Flint,
Henry Crapo.
This is the story of Save theFlags and Flint's 10th Infantry
(03:38):
Regiment in honor of TalmanOwens of Flint, Michigan.
I hope you enjoy.
Okay, good morning.
This is Arthur Bush.
You're listening to Radio FreeFlint.
I'm your host.
We have a great program todayabout a project which has been
ongoing for uh over a hundredyears, I think.
(04:00):
And uh it's called Save theFlags.
So with us today we have MattVan Aukker, who is the uh I
better get your title correct,Matt.
SPEAKER_00 (04:10):
Help me out.
Um I direct the tourist toureducation and information
service at the state capitol,and then serve as the curator of
uh the Save the Flags project.
SPEAKER_01 (04:22):
Okay, and then I also have uh Flint's own David
Norris, who's a history buff,and who got uh who first got us
interested in this subject uhand his interest in uh this Save
the Flags project, especially asit relates to Flint.
So today we're gonna talk aboutwhat is Save the Flags, why it's
(04:42):
important to Michigan, and whyit's important to preserve our
history.
And then uh we're gonna talkabout the 10th Regiment flag,
which was a battle flag that wasuh of those who fought from
Flint, Michigan in the CivilWar, uh with Sherman's army all
the way to the sea, meaning allthe way to Atlanta.
(05:06):
And then uh we'll come back andchat a little bit about what
what this flag's role was withinthe uh the battles themselves
and why it is such a significantuh symbolic um uh so
symbolically significant to ournation.
All right, Matt, tell us uh tellus what uh what is the project
(05:28):
that you you're now involvedwith, uh which is run by the
government, I understand.
SPEAKER_00 (05:35):
Sure, yeah, I'd be happy to.
I wanted to thank you for theinvitation to join you on your
podcast.
Um any uh information we can getout there amongst the citizens
of the state about our projectis a good thing.
Um, so our project actuallystarted about 30 years ago in
1990 with the restoration of thestate capitol.
(05:56):
Um, one of the reasons theCapitol was constructed the way
it was in 1879 was to serve,obviously, as the seat of state
government, but uh I think evenmore importantly to some of the
people back then was to servereally as a memorial to the
sacrifices um that the state ofMichigan made during the Civil
(06:17):
War.
And what they referred to backthen as just the war.
There was no question aboutwhich war they were referring to
when they said the war.
It was also meant to serve as afitting and um fireproof place
to store and display theoriginal battle flags that our
soldiers had carried so proudlywith them in the war.
(06:37):
Um, you know, the 1860 census ofMichigan listed her population
at approximately 750,000citizens.
Five years later, by the springof 1865, Michigan had sent over
90,000 of her father's sons andbrothers to the battlefields of
that terrible war.
That constituted, to put this inperspective, um, something
(07:01):
people can grasp a little morereadily, that constituted about
50% of our eligible malepopulation.
Just an incredible contribution.
SPEAKER_01 (07:11):
Um the battle flag That's about one and one and two
out of every eligible uh maleactually fought in the war.
SPEAKER_00 (07:20):
Exactly.
You could imagine that bystandards of modern warfare.
I don't think our citizens wouldtolerate such a contribution if
one and half of our eligiblecitizens were off fighting in
the war.
Um, back then, though, duringthe war, enlistments were
encouraged and the citizenssupported the war effort and
(07:40):
trying to end slavery and tryingto preserve the Union.
Um so at the end of the war, umthese regiments returned to
their home states and they had agrand ceremony in Detroit on
July 4th, 1866.
It was estimated that a tenth ofthis population of the state,
about 75,000 people, turned outfor this ceremony.
(08:05):
And at that time, you mentionedGovernor Crapo, uh, Flint's own
Governor Crapo accepted thebattle flags on behalf of the
state of Michigan.
And Governor Crapo made a solemnpledge to those boys that on
that very hot day in July out inthe campus Martius in Detroit.
And he said, basically, as longas the old peninsular state has
(08:29):
a name and a place in thisnation, these flags will be
preserved, her proudestpossessions in her state
archives.
Um, so the flags, when theCapitol eventually was built
here in Lansing in 1879, theflags came into the Capitol.
Um, they were first kept in amilitary museum on the first
floor in the South Hall of thebuilding.
(08:51):
And then in the winter of 1908,1909, they were transferred out
to the cases in the rotunda,where I actually remember seeing
them as a small boy.
One of my uh earliest childhoodmemories was of visiting the
Capitol with my family.
And I remember standing in therotunda, literally surrounded by
(09:12):
those battle-torn andblood-stained banners.
Um, and I'm sure I didn'trealize at that young age the
importance of the flags, but itmade a lasting impression on me.
And here I am some 50 yearslater, having been charged with
the awesome responsibility ofhelping to care for them.
So the flags were put into thecases um in 1908, 1909.
(09:37):
Um they stayed there umrelatively intact until the
1960s.
And in that time, a decision wasmade by the the state of
Michigan to, I guess we couldsay, air quote, quote unquote,
do a good thing for the battleflag collection.
Um, a lot of states werecommemorating the centennial of
(09:57):
the war, both north and south inMichigan, and trying to do
something to commemorate thatevent.
And Michigan decided a goodthing to do would be to send her
battle flag collection out foragain air quotes, quote-unquote
conservation.
Uh, that time the flags wereactually sewn between dyed
layers of net, literally througha sewing machine by the
(10:21):
conservator.
Um, basically, every time thatseamstress's needle went up and
down, and that flag put a holeinto it and perforated it.
Um, it's very different than theconservation that we conduct now
on the flags.
So then the flags were uh veryceremoniously put back into
their cases, and they prettymuch stayed there until our
(10:43):
building was restored.
That project was started in1989.
Original intent of Save theFlags was to um maybe
encapsulate the rotunda cases toprotect the flags from any
damage that might come to them,you know, from during the
restoration and the dust anddirt from that project.
(11:03):
We started looking at thecollection though and realized
that if we didn't do somethingfairly soon, we were in danger
of losing them entirely.
They were literally falling tobits and pieces, uh, fragments
of the flags lying on thebottoms of the cases in the
rotunda.
Even worse than that, red,white, and blue powder, which is
(11:23):
the last stage in thedisintegration of silk.
And most of the flags were madeof silk.
They were, it was a lightweightbut very durable material.
So Save the Flags started.
Um, we got uh uh hired aconsultant, nationally
recognized uh textile consultantto come in.
Uh it was based on herevaluation that Save the Flags,
(11:46):
which was made up of statecapitol and museum personnel and
reenactors, and historians, anddescendants of men who actually
fought beneath these banners.
Uh, we made the group decisionto remove the flags from the
Capitol.
Uh, they were sent to the StateMuseum.
Uh, we have a wonderfulpartnership uh with the state
(12:06):
historical center and the statemuseum just down the street from
the Capitol.
Uh, they supplied the space, astate-of-the-art archival space
where we can properly care andpreserve the collection.
Um, some of the flags are instill such bad shape, though.
They need further conservation.
And what one of our goals is toraise the funds.
SPEAKER_01 (12:29):
Let me interrupt you for just a second.
Yeah, please do.
So, as I understand it now,there are no more battle flags
inside our state capitolbuilding.
SPEAKER_00 (12:37):
Yeah, we have now our replicas.
We made copies of about half ofthe Civil War battle flags.
So there are copies of about 80of them.
The entire collection, I shouldmention, and I'll ramble on and
on if you don't stop me, but uh,the entire collection is about
240 flags.
160 are Civil War, and theremainder are flags carried by
(13:00):
Michigan troops in theSpanish-American War and World
War I.
Um, our focus lately has kind ofbeen on the Civil War flags
because they're in more direneed of conservation.
The latter war flags reallyweren't used in combat, and
they're not as old as the CivilWar flags.
So uh, relatively speaking,they're in in pretty decent
(13:21):
shape.
SPEAKER_01 (13:22):
So, Matt, why why is uh why why is symbolically these
flags represent uh uh obviouslytremendous sacrifice by the
people of Michigan, but why whyin terms of the battle and all
of that, why why why were theyimportant?
SPEAKER_00 (13:43):
Yeah, I'm really really glad you asked about
that.
You know, so the flags were adirect link to the communities
from which these men had formed,and Civil War regiments and
companies formed in communities.
I mean, you had entirecompanies, uh, which was about a
hundred men of the thousand-manregiment that would form in
small towns and communities.
(14:05):
These men knew each other.
Uh, the men of the regiment kneweach other, and their their
battle flags were a direct linkto those communities from where
they had come.
Uh, many of these flags werevery ceremoniously presented to
the men of the regiment as theyleft for the field of war.
And um, promises were made bythe men to those ladies of the
(14:26):
communities, the 10th MichiganInfantry Regiment, their
original presentation flag wasliterally given to them by the
ladies of Flint, and it said soon the presentation plaque that
was attached to the staff.
So these boys they made solemnpledges.
They said this flag will becomethe Paul, the funeral garment of
(14:47):
the regiment before we surrenderit to the enemy.
Every time the men looked tothat flag, they recognized that
it was a direct link from wherethey had come and what they were
fighting so hard for.
Now, logistically, they'reterribly important on the
battlefield.
We're talking 160 years ago.
Obviously, people couldn't pullout their phone and text to each
(15:09):
other where they were, wherethey needed to be on the
battlefield.
The only way a colonel couldcommunicate with a thousand-man
regiment at full strength, whichthey very rarely were, um, was
by directing his orders to themen who were in the color guard
who were there to protect theflag.
And within the color guard, thecolor bearers, the
(15:30):
non-commissioned officers, thecorporal and sergeants who were
assigned to carry the flags.
So if he needed his regiment toadvance, the order went to the
flagbearer.
He moved the regiment forward,and the regiment followed that
flag.
If he needed the regiment toretreat, the flag bearer went
back.
If that flag bearer took hisstaff and planted it in the
(15:51):
ground, every man of theregiment knew their job was to
defend their that battle flagand the regiment's position on
the battlefield to the last manif necessary.
SPEAKER_01 (16:03):
That's the old saying, uh, rally around the
flag.
SPEAKER_00 (16:07):
It certainly is.
It comes from the Civil War.
Uh, the game I played as achild, capture the flag, comes
from the Civil War.
The Confederates recognized thesurest way to dishearten and
confuse the Union troops was bydropping the color bear, by
killing the color bear, or evenbetter, by capturing that Union
(16:28):
battle flag.
Union troops recognized this, ofcourse, about the Confederate
banners also, and it became avery deadly um game, if you
will, of capture the flag.
Some of the most intensecasualties usually took place
around the color guard.
Um, we have instances of entirecolor guards being killed in
(16:48):
single battles, and um uh onebattle up to nine men died
carrying the regiment's battleflag.
That was the 24th Michigan atthe Battle of Gettysburg.
SPEAKER_01 (16:58):
I think you in your literature that I reviewed
before uh talking to you today,uh it talked about the flag
bearer had basically a deathsentence in many cases uh for
taking that uh that duty.
And one of the interestingthings I I learned was that they
(17:19):
picked the tallest guys theycould to carry the flag into
into battle.
SPEAKER_00 (17:25):
And uh yeah, they they liked them to be tall and
they liked them to be of thehighest moral character, so
these were not the um thedredges of the regiment that
were stepping up to volunteerfor the duty, and many of them
were volunteers.
I mean, they volunteered tocarry the colors.
We had an incredible story herefrom Lansing of a man who uh
(17:49):
volunteered to carry the colorsin one fight and sent a letter
home to his mother here inLansing.
Charles Foster was his name.
And he said, You know, Ivolunteered to carry the flag in
the last fight.
And I know you're wondering whyI would have volunteered for
such a dangerous duty.
He said, I was afraid that if Ididn't volunteer, that the
colonel would have to pick a manwho had dependent children at
(18:11):
home.
And he said, Me being free andsingle, I figured I wouldn't be
missed if I was killed.
Um in the next battle, Fosterwas in fact killed carrying the
third Michigan's battle flagthat was at the Battle of Fair
Oaks down in the peninsulacampaign.
SPEAKER_01 (18:27):
So so the flag when they brought it back, uh, and I
think you said it was in 1869.
Uh 66.
66.
So that was uh uh essentially ayear after the war ended.
SPEAKER_00 (18:41):
It was, yeah.
So so did they gather all theflags back?
Well, yes and no.
So the men had been ordered toreturn their colors to their
respective states.
So a lot of the northern stateswere having similar ceremonies
around the time of ours.
Some of the men, and I don'tblame them one bit, were shall
(19:04):
we say, reluctant to turn overtheir battle flags to the maybe
dubious care of the state ofMichigan.
So some of the boys held on tothem, including the boys of the
10th Michigan Infantry Regiment,which formed in Flint.
Um, they held on to theiroriginal presentation flag, and
it shows up periodically attheir regimental reunions.
(19:27):
You can see depictions of it,and you know, and photographs,
images of it.
Um, the last recollection wehave of that presentation flag,
it was in the um the ownershipof one of the last men who was
had survived from the regiment.
And um uh we have a sneakingsuspicion that it could have
possibly been buried uh with Mr.
(19:48):
Barney when um when he passedaway.
SPEAKER_01 (19:51):
What was his name?
SPEAKER_00 (19:52):
Uh Marvin Barney was his name, and he was from Flint.
Uh we found his obituaries, andum kind of sadly for us, there's
a number of references to thefact that his coffin was uh
quote unquote festooned withflags.
And um, we have a sneakingsuspicion that it could have
possibly been buried.
(20:12):
Maybe it wasn't.
Maybe it's in some citizen ofFlint, maybe in a trunk or uh uh
you know in a barn or an atticsomewhere in Flint and it still
survives.
SPEAKER_01 (20:23):
Well, hopefully it's not at the pawn shop.
I hope not.
Well, look, let's uh switchgears here for a second.
David Norris is the one who uh Imust thank for introducing me to
this.
He's been talking to me aboutthis for about the last three or
four months.
Uh, David, uh, tell us a storyabout the 10th Regiment and its
(20:43):
flag and your involvement withit.
SPEAKER_02 (20:45):
Well, the 10th Michigan Infantry, as Matt said,
was formed in Flint.
And these were communitygatherings.
And while it was formed inFlint, it was made up of Genesee
County, Le Pierre County,Saginaw County uh men who joined
here in Flint.
My great-grandfather, TalmanOwen, came from Almond and
(21:10):
joined the 10th and servedthrough the entire war.
Uh I've always known that.
We've always talked in thefamily.
Our family, um, our familyhistory is pretty well kept.
And uh so I knew of Talman Owen.
I knew that he was wounded atthe Battle of Peachtree Creek in
(21:32):
taking of Atlanta, uh, and hewas restored to service.
And so it has to be, it's over ayear ago.
Uh I wondered I didn't even knowwhat the battle flag of the 10th
Michigan looked like.
And uh so I'm one of thoseindividuals that I realize the
(21:53):
um the importance of our staterepresentatives on things having
to do with uh with stategovernment, and contacted uh
representative Cheryl Kennedyand said, Does anybody know what
the battle flag of the 10thMichigan looks like?
I'm assuming they contacted Mattand I got a photograph back of
(22:15):
this poor, tattered piece ofsilk.
And uh first I thought I I don'tthink that could be the battle
flag of the 10th, and thenlearned, yes, it is.
In fact, it one of three that umthat we know existed, and uh
Madden Save the Flags has two ofthem.
(22:38):
And the uh the one that I wasmost interested in was the one
that they fought on, uh foughtunder that was presented to them
by Colonel Lum, their colonelthrough the entire war, and Lum
presented them with a flag inthe uh in late 1863, I think it
(22:59):
was it was created, and they hadit at the beginning of 1864, and
they were a veteran regiment bythen, meaning that um a majority
of the people had re-enlisted.
Their term of enlistment hadbeen up.
And so Colonel Lum uh presentedthem with a flag, uh, much like
(23:21):
what this the prototype that'suh that's behind me.
And it fascinated me, and Idecided I really wanted to
create for no particular reasona full-size replica of what that
battle flag looked like in 1864.
And uh, and that began my uhjourney of research, and I just
(23:45):
had such great cooperation.
Um, I think Matt and I havebecome friends uh in the year of
him having to deal with some ofmy silly questions, uh silly to
me sometimes.
He always takes it veryseriously uh about the flag so
that when we create it, when Irecreate it, uh it will be very
close to the way it looked in1864.
SPEAKER_01 (24:07):
So the flag behind you is from 1864, is that right?
SPEAKER_02 (24:11):
This is the design from 1864.
SPEAKER_01 (24:14):
And the names on that flag, maybe you could turn
around and get your camerazeroed in on it and show us what
what what those names are andwhat the significance of it is.
SPEAKER_02 (24:23):
Well, when Lum presented uh this particular
flag to the 10th Michigan, uhI'm assuming it was his decision
to put battle honors on it, andmany of the flags would have
battle honors.
I mean, the designs were notspecific.
And so this starts with the 10thMichigan infantry, and then it
(24:47):
goes from Farmington to TunnelHill.
SPEAKER_01 (24:51):
And the the significant place these are
places where there's actuallythey actually carried the flag
into battle.
SPEAKER_02 (24:58):
Absolutely, and areas that they had taken.
And what's interesting is theSiege of Corinth was a massive
engagement uh that the uh 10thwas involved in uh in support,
but nowadays people uh kind offocus that engagement on a place
(25:19):
called Shiloh.
But the 10th was in support umnorth maybe in east or west, I'm
not sure.
But the 10th either was insupport or on the front lines.
And so once they had this flag,that was their history up to
that point.
(25:39):
And nothing else was added tothis flag.
And they had some horrendousfighting going through Georgia.
In fact, I mentioned the Battleof Peachtree Creek, and the
Battle of Peachtree Creek wasthe taking of Atlanta, that was
the significance.
And accounts of that time uhpeople would relate that uh
(26:02):
there was no greater carnageever in such a localized area
than the Battle of PeachtreeCreek, and the Confederate Army
had jumped the Union Army asthey were moving on Atlanta, is
what happened.
So nothing else was added tothis, this flag.
SPEAKER_01 (26:20):
Do you know how many people from Flint were engaged
in that battle?
SPEAKER_02 (26:26):
I think what you say from Flint, from the 10th
Michigan, yeah.
Um I I would think it'd be closeto 900, don't you think, Matt?
SPEAKER_00 (26:37):
I wouldn't think.
I know they'd re-enlisted, and Ithink didn't they have almost
400 men when they re-enlisted?
Was it 400?
300 and some.
I I have it here somewhere in mynotes.
Um, but um I could look that upactually.
But there were, and I think Davewas kind of referring to this,
there were other regiments thatwere also engaged from Michigan,
(27:01):
um, and regiments thatparticipated in Sherman's March
to the Sea, which you know Daveis referring to, uh, including
the 4th Michigan Cav.
Um, we have their battle flagsalso, and they formed in Flint.
They were mostly Flint boys,also.
In fact, that regiment had thedistinction of capturing
Jefferson Davis at the end ofthe war.
SPEAKER_01 (27:23):
So the the Michigan regiment was the one that
actually captured the the leaderof the Confederate Army.
SPEAKER_00 (27:33):
Yeah, sure was.
Yeah, that was a Confederate B,I guess is a better way to put
it.
Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (27:42):
Uh wow, that's amazing.
And the fourth was organized inFlint.
SPEAKER_00 (27:47):
Yeah, they were Flint boys, yeah.
Majority of them, like Davesaid, with the 10th.
Some of the companies came fromdifferent parts of the state,
but um, they organized andrendezvoused at Flint, and um,
they had a beautiful, beautifulbattle flag, also two flags in
our collection, like the 10thhas um that were carried by the
(28:08):
boys.
And in fact, I have a littlereplica.
I didn't mean to jump to meagain, but there's a replica of
the fourth calve right behind mein my window there.
SPEAKER_01 (28:20):
Wow, it's in your window.
Wow.
So how many uh um I know it'sterrible.
My dad was my dad was a disabledveteran, was a disabled veteran
and uh served in the UnitedStates Army Air Corps and then
later the Air Force, but I can'tever keep track of all these
(28:42):
different uh organizationalstructure uh right things.
So uh for somebody like me whohas not only a fading memory but
a lack of knowledge, could youtell us how many people from the
Flint area, if you know,actually participated in various
(29:03):
battles in the Civil War?
SPEAKER_00 (29:05):
You know, I'd have to do the research on that just
from the Flint area.
I don't know if you you havethat number at the top of your
head, Dave.
SPEAKER_02 (29:13):
No, I really don't.
And even uh with the uh the10th, I think I have bulk
somewhere, I have bulk casualtynumbers.
Of course, in the days, as manypeople uh died from disease as
died in battle.
I mean the attrition rate waswas pretty bad from the time
they marched out of out ofFlint.
SPEAKER_01 (29:32):
What was the bulk uh casualty?
SPEAKER_00 (29:36):
From Michigan, we had we had 90,000 who fought and
15,000 deaths.
But as Dave said, it was kind ofunusual to have a regiment have
more men die of wounds thanactually died of disease.
Um, dysentery, you know, was ahorrible killer during the war.
And you know, a lot of theseboys from Michigan had never
(29:57):
been farther than maybe 20 or 30miles from their homes before
the war and had never beenexposed to a lot of these
diseases.
You know, sanitation wasdeplorable during the war.
So most of them succumbed todisease.
We only had one regiment fromMichigan who had more men die of
wounds than actually died ofdisease.
(30:18):
Which one was that?
That was the eighth Michigan.
Yeah, in fact, sadly, a lot ofthose boys that had been
captured during the war um diedon the Sultana disaster, the
steamship on the Mississippiwhere the boilers blew.
And um, the eighth had a lot ofboys on the Sultana, and uh they
literally on their way home toMichigan and died in this
(30:41):
horrible um explosion.
SPEAKER_01 (30:44):
Wow.
Where's the eighth?
Where's the eighth headquarteredor was?
SPEAKER_00 (30:48):
Oh golly, again, you I have to look it up for you.
I become a I become an expert oncertain regiments when I'm
studying or when I expect peopleto ask me questions about it.
SPEAKER_01 (31:01):
But I'd have to look that one up.
All right, guys.
We're gonna get kicked off ofhere in two minutes.
So okay, well what I want to besure to uh says it's gonna end
in ten minutes, so we got uhHey, listen.
SPEAKER_02 (31:14):
What I really want to point out now, I've made this
flag that's personal.
This this is a flag that'spersonal.
What Matt in Save the Flags isdoing is personal too.
And um he doesn't sit at thehead of a or a co-chair of a
exalted position um that istotally fun because the state of
(31:40):
Michigan does not fund theconservation of these flags at
all, other than the placementwhere they are, um in the um,
you know, in the in the roombeing preserved there.
But as far as the work onkeeping them from deteriorating,
none of that is funded by thestate of Michigan, and that's
(32:02):
all by donations.
And when I found that out, oneof the things that I did uh is
I'm a member of uh FellowshipLodge, which is a Masonic Lodge
in Flint, uh, which wasappropriate.
And they have the the Save theFlags has a promotion basically
(32:24):
where you can adopt a flag.
Numerous people may adopt thesame flag, but you adopt the
flag, that's one thousanddollars.
And that one thousand dollarsdoesn't go to, for instance, the
uh flag of the 10th Michigan.
It goes into where the need ismostly.
And so we don't donated athousand dollars to save the
(32:49):
flags, and I think that's whatI'm going to do when I get the
big flag and I'm taking itaround and showing it off, is
I'm going to try to promoteother people to adopt flags in
that collection in order topreserve these treasures of our
(33:10):
state.
SPEAKER_01 (33:11):
Yeah, well, not to be political here about our
flags and our military, but inrecent days we've heard uh a
certain candidate talking aboutwe need historical education
about our heritage.
And uh when I uh startedthinking about this project that
(33:32):
you're involved in, Matt, Ithought that's our heritage.
Yeah, not the other heritage Isaw the other day in West Branch
where I saw some guy drivingaround in his four-wheel drive
mud truck with two Confederateflags about the size of the one
behind David, flying behind histruck.
(33:53):
Yeah uh and when you think aboutwhat you guys have just talked
about and I don't think we'veconveyed in strong enough terms,
the um the symbolic significanceto the people of Michigan for
all this time.
Some of that memory has faded,obviously, because we have
(34:16):
generational uh uh loss ofmemory.
But that guy in that truckdriving through Flint, Michigan
in 18 uh 68, he probably wouldhave been he probably would have
been uh hogtied.
unknown (34:33):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (34:34):
I don't think he would have wanted to meet that
uh that farmer from Almont whocame back.
I don't think he would have beentoo interested in that.
SPEAKER_00 (34:43):
No, no, I think you're right.
SPEAKER_01 (34:45):
You know, um and really, you know, when you think
about it, I guess this was aquestion for you, man.
I I I'm full of editorials, so Ican mess it up a little bit.
But I mean, obviously, this iseveryone's flag in Michigan of
every belief, of every politicalparty, of every color.
SPEAKER_00 (35:02):
This this collection literally belongs to the people
of Michigan.
These flags, these flags are atouchstone to our history.
Um, they're my touchstone to thehistory of the Civil War.
You know, we've had a passage ofthe weeks and months and years
and decades and centuries, butum, the prayer that these men
(35:24):
had was that they would beremembered and the sacrifices
that they made would beremembered.
Um, this battle flag collectionis literally um a touchstone to
their history.
It's a constant, it's a constantreminder of those 90,000 boys
from Michigan who fought in thatwar and the 15,000 that were
(35:45):
buried in their blood-soakeduniforms and shallow, hastily
dug graves across thebattlefields of the country.
Um, preserving this collectionis our small way of making sure
that their memory is preservedalso.
And every time I go into theirflag storage unit and review
(36:06):
these flags, it's a constantreminder of what this project is
about.
It's sure it's it's caring forthem, but it's remembering them
too.
SPEAKER_01 (36:15):
You know, uh I visited Appomattics where the uh
where the army surrendered theConfederacy, Confederate Army
surrendered.
Uh and then there was a pardongiven, which was the genius of
uh President Lincoln'sforgiveness.
And uh it seems to me that we wehave sort of this thing where we
(36:39):
wanted to bring, you know, atleast Lincoln did, and and most
of the other people, includingthose in our state, wanted to
forgive and move ahead and moveon together.
Uh that was the purpose offighting.
And so you know, bringing outour our flags may and one and
one point of view might be thatthat puts aside the division
(37:02):
symbol of division.
Um but I think we've kind of gotthe real history is we've lost
the the flag itself as asignificant symbol of how united
America was on the issue.
SPEAKER_00 (37:20):
Go go to a pre-COVID, even to baseball
games and sporting events now.
And I'm amazed at the number ofmen that don't even bother to
remove their hats anymore whenthe national anthem is sung.
And you know, I was not raisedthat way, and you respect the
flag and the part of what we'redoing here with this project,
(37:40):
you know.
And you speak of the Union andNorth and Confederate soldiers,
they they many of themreconciled, you know, they
turned out to reunions atGettysburg, and instead of
running towards each other tokill each other, they ran
towards each other with openarms and open hands to shake the
hands of these boys.
And um, in fact, we hadConfederate flags in our
(38:04):
collection for a number ofyears, and we made the decision
in 1941 to return those flags tothe respective Confederate
states.
And they had a ceremony here atthe Capitol where our governor
uh turned them over to thegovernors of those states.
So they were trying toreconcile, you know, even back
then, the boys that fought inthe war.
SPEAKER_01 (38:26):
Let's hope that we can uh we can keep that message
going.
David, you got anything to saybefore they cut us off?
Zoom's gonna kick us out oftheir corner.
SPEAKER_02 (38:35):
Okay, I just sure hope that people will check out
Save the Flags in Michigan.
Uh donate if you can.
If you're a if you're a Masonlike I am, there's a great
history of Masons on both sidesthat point together at.
SPEAKER_01 (38:52):
David, we're gonna go out and I might even
interrupt this podcast with asong by Neil Woodward.
Tell us about that if you can,just quick.
SPEAKER_02 (38:59):
That's a song that song comes from verse that I
wrote about Peachtree Creek,about uh my great-grandfather.
And I was so fortunate that NeilWoodward, the minstrel of
Michigan, was kind enough to putmusic to it and make it.
All right.
SPEAKER_01 (39:15):
Well, well, thank you, Matt, and thank you, David,
for an interesting uh visit.
And uh good luck in your work.
And all of those who would liketo see it, we'll post the
website address and you canparticipate in the adoption
program.
SPEAKER_00 (39:30):
Thank you for the attention.
I think I need to hire Dave as aspokesperson for Save the Flags.
SPEAKER_02 (39:36):
So hey man, it's honored to be your first
podcast.
SPEAKER_01 (39:41):
Sounds good.
Hey, take care now, guys.
Thank you.
This is Arthur Bush.
We're signing off.
Uh, we want to save our flag,and uh, this is Radio Free
Flint.
Thanks for listening.
Goodbye.
SPEAKER_03 (40:07):
Tonight, death speeds silent with where we
(40:58):
still be home.
Michigan we have to fly.
SPEAKER_01 (02:09):
That was singer, folk singer Neil Woodward, who
sings Peachtree Creek, a songwritten by David Norris of
Flint, in honor of hisgreat-grandfather, Talman Owens,
who fought in the Flint's 10thInfantry Regiment in the Civil
(02:30):
War, in the battle at PeachtreeCreek.
Peachtree Creek, of course, wasthe significant battle, critical
one, that resulted in the fallof Atlanta during the Civil War,
ultimately led to the end of theCivil War.
Our episode today is a fantasticreview of the city of Flint and
(02:54):
the area's involvement in theCivil War and the effort by the
state of Michigan and others tosave the history of our flags.
There are battle flags, 240battle flags, which were taken
into the Civil War by thosebrave soldiers in Michigan, some
(03:15):
90,000 of them, who fought theConfederacy and won the war.
At the end of the war, they cameback to Michigan and presented
their battle flags to thegovernor who was from Flint,
Henry Crapo.
This is the story of Save theFlags and Flint's 10th Infantry
(03:38):
Regiment in honor of TalmanOwens of Flint, Michigan.
I hope you enjoy.
Okay, good morning.
This is Arthur Bush.
You're listening to Radio FreeFlint.
I'm your host.
We have a great program todayabout a project which has been
ongoing for uh over a hundredyears, I think.
(04:00):
And uh it's called Save theFlags.
So with us today we have MattVan Aukker, who is the uh I
better get your title correct,Matt.
SPEAKER_00 (04:10):
Help me out.
Um I direct the tourist toureducation and information
service at the state capitol,and then serve as the curator of
uh the Save the Flags project.
SPEAKER_01 (04:22):
Okay, and then I also have uh Flint's own David
Norris, who's a history buff,and who got uh who first got us
interested in this subject uhand his interest in uh this Save
the Flags project, especially asit relates to Flint.
So today we're gonna talk aboutwhat is Save the Flags, why it's
(04:42):
important to Michigan, and whyit's important to preserve our
history.
And then uh we're gonna talkabout the 10th Regiment flag,
which was a battle flag that wasuh of those who fought from
Flint, Michigan in the CivilWar, uh with Sherman's army all
the way to the sea, meaning allthe way to Atlanta.
(05:06):
And then uh we'll come back andchat a little bit about what
what this flag's role was withinthe uh the battles themselves
and why it is such a significantuh symbolic um uh so
symbolically significant to ournation.
All right, Matt, tell us uh tellus what uh what is the project
(05:28):
that you you're now involvedwith, uh which is run by the
government, I understand.
SPEAKER_00 (05:35):
Sure, yeah, I'd be happy to.
I wanted to thank you for theinvitation to join you on your
podcast.
Um any uh information we can getout there amongst the citizens
of the state about our projectis a good thing.
Um, so our project actuallystarted about 30 years ago in
1990 with the restoration of thestate capitol.
(05:56):
Um, one of the reasons theCapitol was constructed the way
it was in 1879 was to serve,obviously, as the seat of state
government, but uh I think evenmore importantly to some of the
people back then was to servereally as a memorial to the
sacrifices um that the state ofMichigan made during the Civil
(06:17):
War.
And what they referred to backthen as just the war.
There was no question aboutwhich war they were referring to
when they said the war.
It was also meant to serve as afitting and um fireproof place
to store and display theoriginal battle flags that our
soldiers had carried so proudlywith them in the war.
(06:37):
Um, you know, the 1860 census ofMichigan listed her population
at approximately 750,000citizens.
Five years later, by the springof 1865, Michigan had sent over
90,000 of her father's sons andbrothers to the battlefields of
that terrible war.
That constituted, to put this inperspective, um, something
(07:01):
people can grasp a little morereadily, that constituted about
50% of our eligible malepopulation.
Just an incredible contribution.
SPEAKER_01 (07:11):
Um the battle flag That's about one and one and two
out of every eligible uh maleactually fought in the war.
SPEAKER_00 (07:20):
Exactly.
You could imagine that bystandards of modern warfare.
I don't think our citizens wouldtolerate such a contribution if
one and half of our eligiblecitizens were off fighting in
the war.
Um, back then, though, duringthe war, enlistments were
encouraged and the citizenssupported the war effort and
(07:40):
trying to end slavery and tryingto preserve the Union.
Um so at the end of the war, umthese regiments returned to
their home states and they had agrand ceremony in Detroit on
July 4th, 1866.
It was estimated that a tenth ofthis population of the state,
about 75,000 people, turned outfor this ceremony.
(08:05):
And at that time, you mentionedGovernor Crapo, uh, Flint's own
Governor Crapo accepted thebattle flags on behalf of the
state of Michigan.
And Governor Crapo made a solemnpledge to those boys that on
that very hot day in July out inthe campus Martius in Detroit.
And he said, basically, as longas the old peninsular state has
(08:29):
a name and a place in thisnation, these flags will be
preserved, her proudestpossessions in her state
archives.
Um, so the flags, when theCapitol eventually was built
here in Lansing in 1879, theflags came into the Capitol.
Um, they were first kept in amilitary museum on the first
floor in the South Hall of thebuilding.
(08:51):
And then in the winter of 1908,1909, they were transferred out
to the cases in the rotunda,where I actually remember seeing
them as a small boy.
One of my uh earliest childhoodmemories was of visiting the
Capitol with my family.
And I remember standing in therotunda, literally surrounded by
(09:12):
those battle-torn andblood-stained banners.
Um, and I'm sure I didn'trealize at that young age the
importance of the flags, but itmade a lasting impression on me.
And here I am some 50 yearslater, having been charged with
the awesome responsibility ofhelping to care for them.
So the flags were put into thecases um in 1908, 1909.
(09:37):
Um they stayed there umrelatively intact until the
1960s.
And in that time, a decision wasmade by the the state of
Michigan to, I guess we couldsay, air quote, quote unquote,
do a good thing for the battleflag collection.
Um, a lot of states werecommemorating the centennial of
(09:57):
the war, both north and south inMichigan, and trying to do
something to commemorate thatevent.
And Michigan decided a goodthing to do would be to send her
battle flag collection out foragain air quotes, quote-unquote
conservation.
Uh, that time the flags wereactually sewn between dyed
layers of net, literally througha sewing machine by the
(10:21):
conservator.
Um, basically, every time thatseamstress's needle went up and
down, and that flag put a holeinto it and perforated it.
Um, it's very different than theconservation that we conduct now
on the flags.
So then the flags were uh veryceremoniously put back into
their cases, and they prettymuch stayed there until our
(10:43):
building was restored.
That project was started in1989.
Original intent of Save theFlags was to um maybe
encapsulate the rotunda cases toprotect the flags from any
damage that might come to them,you know, from during the
restoration and the dust anddirt from that project.
(11:03):
We started looking at thecollection though and realized
that if we didn't do somethingfairly soon, we were in danger
of losing them entirely.
They were literally falling tobits and pieces, uh, fragments
of the flags lying on thebottoms of the cases in the
rotunda.
Even worse than that, red,white, and blue powder, which is
(11:23):
the last stage in thedisintegration of silk.
And most of the flags were madeof silk.
They were, it was a lightweightbut very durable material.
So Save the Flags started.
Um, we got uh uh hired aconsultant, nationally
recognized uh textile consultantto come in.
Uh it was based on herevaluation that Save the Flags,
(11:46):
which was made up of statecapitol and museum personnel and
reenactors, and historians, anddescendants of men who actually
fought beneath these banners.
Uh, we made the group decisionto remove the flags from the
Capitol.
Uh, they were sent to the StateMuseum.
Uh, we have a wonderfulpartnership uh with the state
(12:06):
historical center and the statemuseum just down the street from
the Capitol.
Uh, they supplied the space, astate-of-the-art archival space
where we can properly care andpreserve the collection.
Um, some of the flags are instill such bad shape, though.
They need further conservation.
And what one of our goals is toraise the funds.
SPEAKER_01 (12:29):
Let me interrupt you for just a second.
Yeah, please do.
So, as I understand it now,there are no more battle flags
inside our state capitolbuilding.
SPEAKER_00 (12:37):
Yeah, we have now our replicas.
We made copies of about half ofthe Civil War battle flags.
So there are copies of about 80of them.
The entire collection, I shouldmention, and I'll ramble on and
on if you don't stop me, but uh,the entire collection is about
240 flags.
160 are Civil War, and theremainder are flags carried by
(13:00):
Michigan troops in theSpanish-American War and World
War I.
Um, our focus lately has kind ofbeen on the Civil War flags
because they're in more direneed of conservation.
The latter war flags reallyweren't used in combat, and
they're not as old as the CivilWar flags.
So uh, relatively speaking,they're in in pretty decent
(13:21):
shape.
SPEAKER_01 (13:22):
So, Matt, why why is uh why why is symbolically these
flags represent uh uh obviouslytremendous sacrifice by the
people of Michigan, but why whyin terms of the battle and all
of that, why why why were theyimportant?
SPEAKER_00 (13:43):
Yeah, I'm really really glad you asked about
that.
You know, so the flags were adirect link to the communities
from which these men had formed,and Civil War regiments and
companies formed in communities.
I mean, you had entirecompanies, uh, which was about a
hundred men of the thousand-manregiment that would form in
small towns and communities.
(14:05):
These men knew each other.
Uh, the men of the regiment kneweach other, and their their
battle flags were a direct linkto those communities from where
they had come.
Uh, many of these flags werevery ceremoniously presented to
the men of the regiment as theyleft for the field of war.
And um, promises were made bythe men to those ladies of the
(14:26):
communities, the 10th MichiganInfantry Regiment, their
original presentation flag wasliterally given to them by the
ladies of Flint, and it said soon the presentation plaque that
was attached to the staff.
So these boys they made solemnpledges.
They said this flag will becomethe Paul, the funeral garment of
(14:47):
the regiment before we surrenderit to the enemy.
Every time the men looked tothat flag, they recognized that
it was a direct link from wherethey had come and what they were
fighting so hard for.
Now, logistically, they'reterribly important on the
battlefield.
We're talking 160 years ago.
Obviously, people couldn't pullout their phone and text to each
(15:09):
other where they were, wherethey needed to be on the
battlefield.
The only way a colonel couldcommunicate with a thousand-man
regiment at full strength, whichthey very rarely were, um, was
by directing his orders to themen who were in the color guard
who were there to protect theflag.
And within the color guard, thecolor bearers, the
(15:30):
non-commissioned officers, thecorporal and sergeants who were
assigned to carry the flags.
So if he needed his regiment toadvance, the order went to the
flagbearer.
He moved the regiment forward,and the regiment followed that
flag.
If he needed the regiment toretreat, the flag bearer went
back.
If that flag bearer took hisstaff and planted it in the
(15:51):
ground, every man of theregiment knew their job was to
defend their that battle flagand the regiment's position on
the battlefield to the last manif necessary.
SPEAKER_01 (16:03):
That's the old saying, uh, rally around the
flag.
SPEAKER_00 (16:07):
It certainly is.
It comes from the Civil War.
Uh, the game I played as achild, capture the flag, comes
from the Civil War.
The Confederates recognized thesurest way to dishearten and
confuse the Union troops was bydropping the color bear, by
killing the color bear, or evenbetter, by capturing that Union
(16:28):
battle flag.
Union troops recognized this, ofcourse, about the Confederate
banners also, and it became avery deadly um game, if you
will, of capture the flag.
Some of the most intensecasualties usually took place
around the color guard.
Um, we have instances of entirecolor guards being killed in
(16:48):
single battles, and um uh onebattle up to nine men died
carrying the regiment's battleflag.
That was the 24th Michigan atthe Battle of Gettysburg.
SPEAKER_01 (16:58):
I think you in your literature that I reviewed
before uh talking to you today,uh it talked about the flag
bearer had basically a deathsentence in many cases uh for
taking that uh that duty.
And one of the interestingthings I I learned was that they
(17:19):
picked the tallest guys theycould to carry the flag into
into battle.
SPEAKER_00 (17:25):
And uh yeah, they they liked them to be tall and
they liked them to be of thehighest moral character, so
these were not the um thedredges of the regiment that
were stepping up to volunteerfor the duty, and many of them
were volunteers.
I mean, they volunteered tocarry the colors.
We had an incredible story herefrom Lansing of a man who uh
(17:49):
volunteered to carry the colorsin one fight and sent a letter
home to his mother here inLansing.
Charles Foster was his name.
And he said, You know, Ivolunteered to carry the flag in
the last fight.
And I know you're wondering whyI would have volunteered for
such a dangerous duty.
He said, I was afraid that if Ididn't volunteer, that the
colonel would have to pick a manwho had dependent children at
(18:11):
home.
And he said, Me being free andsingle, I figured I wouldn't be
missed if I was killed.
Um in the next battle, Fosterwas in fact killed carrying the
third Michigan's battle flagthat was at the Battle of Fair
Oaks down in the peninsulacampaign.
SPEAKER_01 (18:27):
So so the flag when they brought it back, uh, and I
think you said it was in 1869.
Uh 66.
66.
So that was uh uh essentially ayear after the war ended.
SPEAKER_00 (18:41):
It was, yeah.
So so did they gather all theflags back?
Well, yes and no.
So the men had been ordered toreturn their colors to their
respective states.
So a lot of the northern stateswere having similar ceremonies
around the time of ours.
Some of the men, and I don'tblame them one bit, were shall
(19:04):
we say, reluctant to turn overtheir battle flags to the maybe
dubious care of the state ofMichigan.
So some of the boys held on tothem, including the boys of the
10th Michigan Infantry Regiment,which formed in Flint.
Um, they held on to theiroriginal presentation flag, and
it shows up periodically attheir regimental reunions.
(19:27):
You can see depictions of it,and you know, and photographs,
images of it.
Um, the last recollection wehave of that presentation flag,
it was in the um the ownershipof one of the last men who was
had survived from the regiment.
And um uh we have a sneakingsuspicion that it could have
possibly been buried uh with Mr.
(19:48):
Barney when um when he passedaway.
SPEAKER_01 (19:51):
What was his name?
SPEAKER_00 (19:52):
Uh Marvin Barney was his name, and he was from Flint.
Uh we found his obituaries, andum kind of sadly for us, there's
a number of references to thefact that his coffin was uh
quote unquote festooned withflags.
And um, we have a sneakingsuspicion that it could have
possibly been buried.
(20:12):
Maybe it wasn't.
Maybe it's in some citizen ofFlint, maybe in a trunk or uh uh
you know in a barn or an atticsomewhere in Flint and it still
survives.
SPEAKER_01 (20:23):
Well, hopefully it's not at the pawn shop.
I hope not.
Well, look, let's uh switchgears here for a second.
David Norris is the one who uh Imust thank for introducing me to
this.
He's been talking to me aboutthis for about the last three or
four months.
Uh, David, uh, tell us a storyabout the 10th Regiment and its
(20:43):
flag and your involvement withit.
SPEAKER_02 (20:45):
Well, the 10th Michigan Infantry, as Matt said,
was formed in Flint.
And these were communitygatherings.
And while it was formed inFlint, it was made up of Genesee
County, Le Pierre County,Saginaw County uh men who joined
here in Flint.
My great-grandfather, TalmanOwen, came from Almond and
(21:10):
joined the 10th and servedthrough the entire war.
Uh I've always known that.
We've always talked in thefamily.
Our family, um, our familyhistory is pretty well kept.
And uh so I knew of Talman Owen.
I knew that he was wounded atthe Battle of Peachtree Creek in
(21:32):
taking of Atlanta, uh, and hewas restored to service.
And so it has to be, it's over ayear ago.
Uh I wondered I didn't even knowwhat the battle flag of the 10th
Michigan looked like.
And uh so I'm one of thoseindividuals that I realize the
(21:53):
um the importance of our staterepresentatives on things having
to do with uh with stategovernment, and contacted uh
representative Cheryl Kennedyand said, Does anybody know what
the battle flag of the 10thMichigan looks like?
I'm assuming they contacted Mattand I got a photograph back of
(22:15):
this poor, tattered piece ofsilk.
And uh first I thought I I don'tthink that could be the battle
flag of the 10th, and thenlearned, yes, it is.
In fact, it one of three that umthat we know existed, and uh
Madden Save the Flags has two ofthem.
(22:38):
And the uh the one that I wasmost interested in was the one
that they fought on, uh foughtunder that was presented to them
by Colonel Lum, their colonelthrough the entire war, and Lum
presented them with a flag inthe uh in late 1863, I think it
(22:59):
was it was created, and they hadit at the beginning of 1864, and
they were a veteran regiment bythen, meaning that um a majority
of the people had re-enlisted.
Their term of enlistment hadbeen up.
And so Colonel Lum uh presentedthem with a flag, uh, much like
(23:21):
what this the prototype that'suh that's behind me.
And it fascinated me, and Idecided I really wanted to
create for no particular reasona full-size replica of what that
battle flag looked like in 1864.
And uh, and that began my uhjourney of research, and I just
(23:45):
had such great cooperation.
Um, I think Matt and I havebecome friends uh in the year of
him having to deal with some ofmy silly questions, uh silly to
me sometimes.
He always takes it veryseriously uh about the flag so
that when we create it, when Irecreate it, uh it will be very
close to the way it looked in1864.
SPEAKER_01 (24:07):
So the flag behind you is from 1864, is that right?
SPEAKER_02 (24:11):
This is the design from 1864.
SPEAKER_01 (24:14):
And the names on that flag, maybe you could turn
around and get your camerazeroed in on it and show us what
what what those names are andwhat the significance of it is.
SPEAKER_02 (24:23):
Well, when Lum presented uh this particular
flag to the 10th Michigan, uhI'm assuming it was his decision
to put battle honors on it, andmany of the flags would have
battle honors.
I mean, the designs were notspecific.
And so this starts with the 10thMichigan infantry, and then it
(24:47):
goes from Farmington to TunnelHill.
SPEAKER_01 (24:51):
And the the significant place these are
places where there's actuallythey actually carried the flag
into battle.
SPEAKER_02 (24:58):
Absolutely, and areas that they had taken.
And what's interesting is theSiege of Corinth was a massive
engagement uh that the uh 10thwas involved in uh in support,
but nowadays people uh kind offocus that engagement on a place
(25:19):
called Shiloh.
But the 10th was in support umnorth maybe in east or west, I'm
not sure.
But the 10th either was insupport or on the front lines.
And so once they had this flag,that was their history up to
that point.
(25:39):
And nothing else was added tothis flag.
And they had some horrendousfighting going through Georgia.
In fact, I mentioned the Battleof Peachtree Creek, and the
Battle of Peachtree Creek wasthe taking of Atlanta, that was
the significance.
And accounts of that time uhpeople would relate that uh
(26:02):
there was no greater carnageever in such a localized area
than the Battle of PeachtreeCreek, and the Confederate Army
had jumped the Union Army asthey were moving on Atlanta, is
what happened.
So nothing else was added tothis, this flag.
SPEAKER_01 (26:20):
Do you know how many people from Flint were engaged
in that battle?
SPEAKER_02 (26:26):
I think what you say from Flint, from the 10th
Michigan, yeah.
Um I I would think it'd be closeto 900, don't you think, Matt?
SPEAKER_00 (26:37):
I wouldn't think.
I know they'd re-enlisted, and Ithink didn't they have almost
400 men when they re-enlisted?
Was it 400?
300 and some.
I I have it here somewhere in mynotes.
Um, but um I could look that upactually.
But there were, and I think Davewas kind of referring to this,
there were other regiments thatwere also engaged from Michigan,
(27:01):
um, and regiments thatparticipated in Sherman's March
to the Sea, which you know Daveis referring to, uh, including
the 4th Michigan Cav.
Um, we have their battle flagsalso, and they formed in Flint.
They were mostly Flint boys,also.
In fact, that regiment had thedistinction of capturing
Jefferson Davis at the end ofthe war.
SPEAKER_01 (27:23):
So the the Michigan regiment was the one that
actually captured the the leaderof the Confederate Army.
SPEAKER_00 (27:33):
Yeah, sure was.
Yeah, that was a Confederate B,I guess is a better way to put
it.
Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (27:42):
Uh wow, that's amazing.
And the fourth was organized inFlint.
SPEAKER_00 (27:47):
Yeah, they were Flint boys, yeah.
Majority of them, like Davesaid, with the 10th.
Some of the companies came fromdifferent parts of the state,
but um, they organized andrendezvoused at Flint, and um,
they had a beautiful, beautifulbattle flag, also two flags in
our collection, like the 10thhas um that were carried by the
(28:08):
boys.
And in fact, I have a littlereplica.
I didn't mean to jump to meagain, but there's a replica of
the fourth calve right behind mein my window there.
SPEAKER_01 (28:20):
Wow, it's in your window.
Wow.
So how many uh um I know it'sterrible.
My dad was my dad was a disabledveteran, was a disabled veteran
and uh served in the UnitedStates Army Air Corps and then
later the Air Force, but I can'tever keep track of all these
(28:42):
different uh organizationalstructure uh right things.
So uh for somebody like me whohas not only a fading memory but
a lack of knowledge, could youtell us how many people from the
Flint area, if you know,actually participated in various
(29:03):
battles in the Civil War?
SPEAKER_00 (29:05):
You know, I'd have to do the research on that just
from the Flint area.
I don't know if you you havethat number at the top of your
head, Dave.
SPEAKER_02 (29:13):
No, I really don't.
And even uh with the uh the10th, I think I have bulk
somewhere, I have bulk casualtynumbers.
Of course, in the days, as manypeople uh died from disease as
died in battle.
I mean the attrition rate waswas pretty bad from the time
they marched out of out ofFlint.
SPEAKER_01 (29:32):
What was the bulk uh casualty?
SPEAKER_00 (29:36):
From Michigan, we had we had 90,000 who fought and
15,000 deaths.
But as Dave said, it was kind ofunusual to have a regiment have
more men die of wounds thanactually died of disease.
Um, dysentery, you know, was ahorrible killer during the war.
And you know, a lot of theseboys from Michigan had never
(29:57):
been farther than maybe 20 or 30miles from their homes before
the war and had never beenexposed to a lot of these
diseases.
You know, sanitation wasdeplorable during the war.
So most of them succumbed todisease.
We only had one regiment fromMichigan who had more men die of
wounds than actually died ofdisease.
(30:18):
Which one was that?
That was the eighth Michigan.
Yeah, in fact, sadly, a lot ofthose boys that had been
captured during the war um diedon the Sultana disaster, the
steamship on the Mississippiwhere the boilers blew.
And um, the eighth had a lot ofboys on the Sultana, and uh they
literally on their way home toMichigan and died in this
(30:41):
horrible um explosion.
SPEAKER_01 (30:44):
Wow.
Where's the eighth?
Where's the eighth headquarteredor was?
SPEAKER_00 (30:48):
Oh golly, again, you I have to look it up for you.
I become a I become an expert oncertain regiments when I'm
studying or when I expect peopleto ask me questions about it.
SPEAKER_01 (31:01):
But I'd have to look that one up.
All right, guys.
We're gonna get kicked off ofhere in two minutes.
So okay, well what I want to besure to uh says it's gonna end
in ten minutes, so we got uhHey, listen.
SPEAKER_02 (31:14):
What I really want to point out now, I've made this
flag that's personal.
This this is a flag that'spersonal.
What Matt in Save the Flags isdoing is personal too.
And um he doesn't sit at thehead of a or a co-chair of a
exalted position um that istotally fun because the state of
(31:40):
Michigan does not fund theconservation of these flags at
all, other than the placementwhere they are, um in the um,
you know, in the in the roombeing preserved there.
But as far as the work onkeeping them from deteriorating,
none of that is funded by thestate of Michigan, and that's
(32:02):
all by donations.
And when I found that out, oneof the things that I did uh is
I'm a member of uh FellowshipLodge, which is a Masonic Lodge
in Flint, uh, which wasappropriate.
And they have the the Save theFlags has a promotion basically
(32:24):
where you can adopt a flag.
Numerous people may adopt thesame flag, but you adopt the
flag, that's one thousanddollars.
And that one thousand dollarsdoesn't go to, for instance, the
uh flag of the 10th Michigan.
It goes into where the need ismostly.
And so we don't donated athousand dollars to save the
(32:49):
flags, and I think that's whatI'm going to do when I get the
big flag and I'm taking itaround and showing it off, is
I'm going to try to promoteother people to adopt flags in
that collection in order topreserve these treasures of our
(33:10):
state.
SPEAKER_01 (33:11):
Yeah, well, not to be political here about our
flags and our military, but inrecent days we've heard uh a
certain candidate talking aboutwe need historical education
about our heritage.
And uh when I uh startedthinking about this project that
(33:32):
you're involved in, Matt, Ithought that's our heritage.
Yeah, not the other heritage Isaw the other day in West Branch
where I saw some guy drivingaround in his four-wheel drive
mud truck with two Confederateflags about the size of the one
behind David, flying behind histruck.
(33:53):
Yeah uh and when you think aboutwhat you guys have just talked
about and I don't think we'veconveyed in strong enough terms,
the um the symbolic significanceto the people of Michigan for
all this time.
Some of that memory has faded,obviously, because we have
(34:16):
generational uh uh loss ofmemory.
But that guy in that truckdriving through Flint, Michigan
in 18 uh 68, he probably wouldhave been he probably would have
been uh hogtied.
unknown (34:33):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (34:34):
I don't think he would have wanted to meet that
uh that farmer from Almont whocame back.
I don't think he would have beentoo interested in that.
SPEAKER_00 (34:43):
No, no, I think you're right.
SPEAKER_01 (34:45):
You know, um and really, you know, when you think
about it, I guess this was aquestion for you, man.
I I I'm full of editorials, so Ican mess it up a little bit.
But I mean, obviously, this iseveryone's flag in Michigan of
every belief, of every politicalparty, of every color.
SPEAKER_00 (35:02):
This this collection literally belongs to the people
of Michigan.
These flags, these flags are atouchstone to our history.
Um, they're my touchstone to thehistory of the Civil War.
You know, we've had a passage ofthe weeks and months and years
and decades and centuries, butum, the prayer that these men
(35:24):
had was that they would beremembered and the sacrifices
that they made would beremembered.
Um, this battle flag collectionis literally um a touchstone to
their history.
It's a constant, it's a constantreminder of those 90,000 boys
from Michigan who fought in thatwar and the 15,000 that were
(35:45):
buried in their blood-soakeduniforms and shallow, hastily
dug graves across thebattlefields of the country.
Um, preserving this collectionis our small way of making sure
that their memory is preservedalso.
And every time I go into theirflag storage unit and review
(36:06):
these flags, it's a constantreminder of what this project is
about.
It's sure it's it's caring forthem, but it's remembering them
too.
SPEAKER_01 (36:15):
You know, uh I visited Appomattics where the uh
where the army surrendered theConfederacy, Confederate Army
surrendered.
Uh and then there was a pardongiven, which was the genius of
uh President Lincoln'sforgiveness.
And uh it seems to me that we wehave sort of this thing where we
(36:39):
wanted to bring, you know, atleast Lincoln did, and and most
of the other people, includingthose in our state, wanted to
forgive and move ahead and moveon together.
Uh that was the purpose offighting.
And so you know, bringing outour our flags may and one and
one point of view might be thatthat puts aside the division
(37:02):
symbol of division.
Um but I think we've kind of gotthe real history is we've lost
the the flag itself as asignificant symbol of how united
America was on the issue.
SPEAKER_00 (37:20):
Go go to a pre-COVID, even to baseball
games and sporting events now.
And I'm amazed at the number ofmen that don't even bother to
remove their hats anymore whenthe national anthem is sung.
And you know, I was not raisedthat way, and you respect the
flag and the part of what we'redoing here with this project,
(37:40):
you know.
And you speak of the Union andNorth and Confederate soldiers,
they they many of themreconciled, you know, they
turned out to reunions atGettysburg, and instead of
running towards each other tokill each other, they ran
towards each other with openarms and open hands to shake the
hands of these boys.
And um, in fact, we hadConfederate flags in our
(38:04):
collection for a number ofyears, and we made the decision
in 1941 to return those flags tothe respective Confederate
states.
And they had a ceremony here atthe Capitol where our governor
uh turned them over to thegovernors of those states.
So they were trying toreconcile, you know, even back
then, the boys that fought inthe war.
SPEAKER_01 (38:26):
Let's hope that we can uh we can keep that message
going.
David, you got anything to saybefore they cut us off?
Zoom's gonna kick us out oftheir corner.
SPEAKER_02 (38:35):
Okay, I just sure hope that people will check out
Save the Flags in Michigan.
Uh donate if you can.
If you're a if you're a Masonlike I am, there's a great
history of Masons on both sidesthat point together at.
SPEAKER_01 (38:52):
David, we're gonna go out and I might even
interrupt this podcast with asong by Neil Woodward.
Tell us about that if you can,just quick.
SPEAKER_02 (38:59):
That's a song that song comes from verse that I
wrote about Peachtree Creek,about uh my great-grandfather.
And I was so fortunate that NeilWoodward, the minstrel of
Michigan, was kind enough to putmusic to it and make it.
All right.
SPEAKER_01 (39:15):
Well, well, thank you, Matt, and thank you, David,
for an interesting uh visit.
And uh good luck in your work.
And all of those who would liketo see it, we'll post the
website address and you canparticipate in the adoption
program.
SPEAKER_00 (39:30):
Thank you for the attention.
I think I need to hire Dave as aspokesperson for Save the Flags.
SPEAKER_02 (39:36):
So hey man, it's honored to be your first
podcast.
SPEAKER_01 (39:41):
Sounds good.
Hey, take care now, guys.
Thank you.
This is Arthur Bush.
We're signing off.
Uh, we want to save our flag,and uh, this is Radio Free
Flint.
Thanks for listening.
Goodbye.
SPEAKER_03 (40:07):
Tonight, death speeds silent with where we
(40:58):
still be home.
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