November 14, 2025 • 24 mins
He was handsome, popular, and lived the perfect fraternity life in Ann Arbor. But behind John Norman Collins’s all-American image lurked one of Michigan’s darkest secrets.
In the late 1960s, a series of brutal murders terrorized the college towns of Ann Arbor and Ypsilanti. Seven young women—mostly students—were abducted, raped, and murdered. The media called the killer “The Michigan Murderer.”
In this Radio Free Flint episode, Arthur Busch interviews Gregory Fournier, author of Terror in Ypsilanti: John Norman Collins Unmasked. Fournier recounts how Collins became the prime suspect, how his crimes shattered the sense of safety near two major universities, and why prosecutors charged him with only one of the seven killings.
Collins was ultimately convicted of the murder of Karen Sue Beineman, an 18-year-old Eastern Michigan University student. He received a mandatory life sentence, and his conviction was upheld on appeal. But many still ask: Why were the other murder cases never prosecuted?
Fournier shares his extensive research into the evidence, police investigation, and unanswered questions that continue to haunt Michigan’s true-crime history.
- Fournier shares his extensive findings about these murders in our interview. The book "Terror in Ypsilanti: John Norman Collins Unmasked" is available at bookstores.
- Fournier, a Detroit native, is one of America's premier true crime authors. He has written several other books, including about Detroit's Purple Gang.
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Obtain a copy of the book "Terror in Ypsilanti: John Norman Collins Unmasked" by visiting your local bookstore or Amazon Books. To learn more about Gregory Fournier and other published true crime books, visit the Author's Website.
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#RadioFreeFlint #JohnNormanCollins #MichiganMurderer #TerrorInYpsilanti #GregoryFournier #TrueCrimePodcast #MichiganHistory #AnnArbor #Ypsilanti #SerialKillerStories #FlintMichigan #ArthurBusch
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Arthur Busch (00:39):
Hello, this is Radio Free Flint.
You're listening to ArthurBush.
Today's episode is with authorGregory Fronier, who's written a
book about serial killer JohnNorman's Collins.
Mr.
Collins operated around theUniversity of Michigan campus in
Ann Arbor in the late 1960s.
He was convicted of killing ayoung lady, sentenced to life in
(01:04):
prison without parole.
Mr.
Collins' crimes is believed tokill several other women, both
in Michigan and as well asCalifornia, gripped the state of
Michigan and the nation in thevastness of and the brutality of
his killings.
(01:24):
John Norman Collins gave riseto the term serial killer.
Before that, we never reallyreferred to them as serial
killers.
This Radio Free Flint podcastcomes to you by way of
anchor.fm.
(01:44):
We also have a website which islocated at
www.radiofreeflint.media.
That's www.radiofreflint.media,where you can see this episode
in video or follow any otherpodcast that episodes that we've
released.
And we hope that you would doso.
(02:06):
Also, uh we plan to put out anewsletter in the near future.
And if you'd like to uh get acopy of our newsletter once a
month, uh please go to thewebsite and subscribe, or you
can just send us an email and uhwe'll take care of it that way.
Thanks again for joining us.
Here's the episode.
(02:27):
Okay, we listened to Radio FreeFlint.
(02:51):
Today my guest is GregoryFournier, a retired professor
who lives in one of the greatestweather places in the United
States, San Diego, California.
Welcome, Greg.
Yeah, thank you for having me.
Well, uh Greg, uh, you uh thisis your second round here with
me, and you're the first authorthat I've invited back twice.
(03:14):
So uh either that says I'm hardup for guests or you're really
good.
And uh my audience really likedyour uh your uh time with us
when you talked to us about thepurple gang.
And uh so I thought I I thoughtI'd work on another book that
you did, uh although it's acouple of years ago.
(03:35):
Um this fascinating case.
Uh it's uh unsolved murder, theJohn Norman Collins case.
And I'd like to uh talk to youabout that.
You you wrote a book about it.
Gregory Fournier (03:47):
Yeah, Karen Salani, John Norman Collins
Unmasked.
And the unmasked part is that Idon't feel that there was ever
a good uh account of uh of whohe was and uh you know how he
got that way.
And uh uh and it's actuallybeen pretty well received.
(04:11):
The first book that came out,uh I hate to give a plug for it,
but it's called The MichiganMurders.
And uh the guy who wrote thatwrote it five years after the
fact.
Uh, and I wrote my book over 50years after the fact.
So I had the benefit ofhindsight, but I also had the
(04:33):
benefit of being on the campusat the time, understanding the
the campus culture, being in uhthat neighborhood, which was
just south of uh uh EasternMichigan University's uh campus.
And uh, you know, the studentscalled it the student ghetto
because the homes were you wereliving, you were you at one time
(04:57):
lived in Ypsilani at the sametime that John Norman Collins
lived there.
We were uh students at Eastern,he was a year ahead of me, but
he lived a block down the streetfrom me.
And before I knew about him andany of this uh you know ugly
business, uh, I had had a coupleof uh I don't want to call them
(05:21):
run-ins, but encounters uh withhim.
And uh they were alwaysnegative.
And uh uh, you know, one timehe took a swing at me.
Actually, he was trying toclothesline me while I was
walking down the street.
Um and I turned around realquick, you know, to get in a
(05:41):
defensive position because Ididn't want the guy to jump me
from behind.
Uh I didn't know what was goingon, and uh and he just kept
walking and walking and walking.
I I watched him uh walk to hishome.
Or well, he was renting a roomin a small little boarding
house, and uh, so I knew wherehe lived then, but I again did
(06:05):
not know uh what he was up to,and very few people uh knew what
he was up to.
But uh what he was up to ismurder, he murdered, as far as I
can discern, seven women, andhe put many more women, young
women, uh in harm's way, uhasking them to get on his
(06:28):
motorcycle or get in his car, oryou know, let's go here and
there.
Um, and a lot of them just feltuh I've spoken to a good many
of these ladies, and they justhad a kind of a an uneasy
feeling about him, you know, abad vibe.
But on the other hand, therewere people I've spoken to that
(06:51):
did get on the motorcycle, hedidn't murder them.
Uh uh and you know some wouldsay, you know, he seemed like a
nice guy, but he had no troublegetting a date.
He didn't have to kill thesewomen to have sex with them, uh,
(07:12):
to put it bluntly.
And uh uh so it it comes down,and I'm gonna just jump to the
chase with my opinion, andthat's all it is, uh, is that
John Collins was a uh uh acontrol killer.
Uh there's a term for it I justhad it and it slipped out of my
(07:36):
mind.
Power and control.
And I think that appealed tohim a lot.
And he had uh many chips on hisshoulder, but I think he had a
big one here from a domineeringmother, and he was the third
child uh of a divorce, and youknow, I'm gonna uh venture to
(08:03):
say that uh he was the thirdchild, he was an the unwanted
child.
Uh and there's background thatI give in the book about his
father and his mother.
Arthur Busch (08:13):
Yeah, let's uh let's let's go back here for
just a second and set the stage.
Uh uh this this guy becamefamous.
In fact, uh some people thinkthat he gave definition to what
was his the the term serialkiller, which until the 60s, we
(08:35):
really never had that in ourlexicon in Michigan or anywhere
else, did we?
Gregory Fournier (08:39):
No, it they were called multiple murders,
multiple murderer at the time,and it wasn't until a few years
later the golden age of serialkillers uh would be the 1970s
through the 1980s, and all ofthe big names that we're all so
familiar with, and they've hadbook after book and video after
(09:03):
video on them.
Arthur Busch (09:04):
Um he roamed the streets in the in the late 60s.
Gregory Fournier (09:14):
Yes, uh-huh.
He was before them.
And I dare say that he was theprototype uh for Ted Bundy.
If you you know study both ofthose serial killers, you'll
find that Bundy was so much likeCollins, psychologically, uh
(09:40):
socially, uh, you know, both uhwere ambitious.
Uh, you know, they there weredifferences, of course, but how
he killed and uh who he killed,very similar because they they
always uh you know went foreither the college-aged uh young
woman, or in John Collins'scase, he killed two teenagers, a
(10:04):
14-year-old and a person whowas 16, but she had only been 16
for 20 days.
So essentially she was 15 yearsold.
Arthur Busch (10:15):
So uh now Collins was a student uh as well, right?
Gregory Fournier (10:21):
Yes, he was an English student who was trying
to get his uh uh uh credentialin uh elementary education.
Uh the you've got the primary,you know, the the early grades,
and then you've got the you knowfourth, fifth, sixth grade, in
some cases seventh grade.
(10:41):
Uh so he was going for the uhuh you know younger students and
he wanted to be a uh uh a PEteacher and with an English uh
endorsement.
You know, it makes it a loteasier to get a job uh if if you
uh can teach something else.
(11:03):
And but he his I think his mainuh ambition there was to be a
coach and work with kids.
Arthur Busch (11:12):
Now he Collins also uh fit in at East in the
Eastern Michigan Universitycommunity at the time.
Gregory Fournier (11:22):
Yeah, and I can give you a little uh
scenario about that or synopsis,I should say.
Uh he did his first year ofcollege at Central Michigan
University in Mount Pleasant.
His brother went there, hisbrother was, I think, three or
four years older, and uh helived with his in his brother's
(11:45):
house of where he was renting.
Uh, but that first year he justdidn't like it, didn't feel
comfortable in Mount Pleasant.
And so he wanted to get closerto home, and because he was
pining for his high schoolgirlfriend, who they had broken
up, and he couldn't get over it,you know, a very common story.
(12:09):
You know, the the man justcan't face the fact that she's
not interested anymore, youknow, doesn't feel comfortable
uh with him.
And uh so he got back uh uhcloser by coming to eastern
Michigan, which was about 50miles from his home in Center
Line, a little bit north ofDetroit.
(12:31):
Uh I think Center Line is kindof city within a city, I think,
uh uh within Warren, Michigan.
And he uh would have, you know,he could ride with a his
motorcycle uh uh and in an houror less be home.
Uh and uh he tried to get backuh with his girlfriend once he
(12:54):
got back to Ypsilanti, that hadto be in 1966, and uh he asked
her out on a date, and I talkabout it in the book, um, and he
says, Do you think we he couldget back together again?
Um, and basically she said no.
So I think he felt like he hadthe rejection by uh of his
(13:17):
mother on the one hand, and therejection with the girlfriend on
the other.
And I don't think that he wasemotionally, psychologically um
able to get over either one ofthose things, and I think he
(13:37):
developed anger to a point ofmurder.
Arthur Busch (13:42):
Well, now he was a he was in a fraternity, I read
someplace.
Gregory Fournier (13:48):
He was a theta chi, which was the animal house
fraternity on Eastern's campus,and there were a bunch of jacks
who were dedicated to party andhardy, drinking a lot of
alcohol, and bagging women.
(14:14):
I'm trying to think of a betterway to say it, but that's
essentially what it was.
And of course, when the newfreshman class comes in, they
hold these uh uh kegers and soon, and they draw a lot of you
know young women to be said,it'd be a crowd, three, four
(14:34):
hundred people.
They'd have to close thestreet, and uh and so I think he
saw that as uh as a way to tomeet women.
Arthur Busch (14:48):
Well, Greg, uh this case this case drew more
than uh a little attention inMichigan at the time because I
remember uh when I was a kid,this scared the hell out of a
lot of people.
Gregory Fournier (15:04):
And the reason I named the book the way I did,
Terror in Ypsilani, was becauseuh the fear was profound and
widespread there more thananywhere.
Um and I've had so many peoplewho were children at the time uh
(15:26):
remember their parents notletting them go out of the
house, uh just being veryprotective, clamping down on
them.
And that leaves a bigimpression on a on a young kid.
Arthur Busch (15:40):
Yeah, now you would think that uh somebody who
was, you know, becoming ahousehold name within
southeastern Michigan would havebeen somebody whose dirty
deeds, if you will, uh wouldhave carried him into infamy for
a long time, but his famereally was short-lived.
Gregory Fournier (16:00):
And you know, I have a theory, I believe it's
more than a theory on why.
And it was because how his casewas handled, and uh Neil Fink
and Joseph Lewis L, uh Detroitlawyers, were were his lawyers,
(16:21):
and uh they uh Neil inparticular was a very tenacious
lawyer, and uh you know he'dobject at the top of, you know
uh, you know, just somethingcome up, bang, he'd be on it.
Uh so it was not a real smoothtrial, but the real story for
(16:45):
Collins not being better knownhas to uh go to the prosecutor
in uh Washtenaw County, and hehad uh the year before uh had a
man who was a killer of twohomosexual youths.
(17:08):
And uh he lived in uh uh hisname was Ralph Nuss, and he
lived in Ann Arbor, I think.
And uh one of the kids uh hekilled was uh you know, kids, uh
18, 19, 20 uh years of age, wasfrom Ipsy, and the other was
(17:29):
from of all places, Windsor,Ontario.
And uh he was convicted ofthose murders, and then there
was some kind of change in theMichigan court procedures or in
the sentencing law.
I'm not exactly certain whatthat uh circumstance was, you
(17:52):
know, at the top of my head, Icould I could find out, but uh
and so Nuss uh uh because of thechanges in sentencing and so
on, his lawyer got him off.
And uh so Delhi, the uhprosecutor in Ann Arbor, uh
(18:15):
wanted you know to put him backbehind bars.
He was still a dangerous man asfar as he was concerned.
And Nuss was able to walk onthat.
And part of the reason is thatuh there was uh both of the
(18:36):
murders uh were to were triedtogether, and so to he didn't
have a second case to fall backon.
So by trying to go after Nussagain was double jeopardy, and
he got out.
Okay, now talking aboutCollins.
When that case came out, uh theprosecutor remembered what had
(19:03):
happened just uh a yearprevious, and he made the
decision to only prosecuteCollins for one of the murders,
and I don't think he thought ofthe larger aspect of it in that
to be officially FBI certifiedserial killer, uh, you have to
(19:29):
have three separate murders witha cooling off period, uh,
similar MOs, and there were fouror five different categories.
Okay.
So Collins was only tried forone of the cases, even though
there were other very strongcases.
Arthur Busch (19:49):
And there were six other, were there six other
victims?
Gregory Fournier (19:52):
There were six other victims, and one of them
was from uh California, and thatwas a slam dunk case, uh which
I talk about in the book, and itinvolves Governor Ronald Reagan
and Governor William Milliken.
Um and Milliken would notextradite Collins, even though
(20:15):
there was a better case inCalifornia, and he would have
gotten did they have the deathpenalty then?
He would have gotten the deathpenalty if he had been
convicted, but there's noquestion uh that the the uh
prosecutors out there had uh allthe evidence uh they needed,
(20:37):
physical and circumstantialevidence.
Um so at any rate, uh two,three of the other uh Michigan
murders, uh Delhi could have uhbrought a case for them, but he
wasn't aware of you know howhistory would his decision would
(21:00):
tend to uh cloak Collins insome anonymity.
Uh because he if he had been aserial killer, other people
would have written about him andyou know he would have been
right with the the rest of of uhthe the infamous serial
(21:21):
killers.
Arthur Busch (21:22):
When your book came out in I'm sorry, I tucked
over top of it.
Gregory Fournier (21:28):
Excuse me.
Arthur Busch (21:30):
When when your book came out in 2016, it sort
of stirred up the hornet's nesta little bit, and there became
some interest in in the DNAevidence that had been
developed.
And I think it was the DetroitFree Press, or it might have
been you, discovered that atleast uh two samples, DNA
(21:54):
samples from two two of thevictims had never been tested.
They had possession of it, butthey didn't proceed to do
testing for some reason.
Gregory Fournier (22:06):
Uh Collins uh to talk about that first, uh
continually refused to give DNAuntil it was uh state law that
all prisoners had to you knowgive saliva and or blood
samples, whatever.
Um but uh by the time they uhcame around to DNA, one of the
(22:32):
cases, uh a family uh broughtthe case with the the DNA, and
uh well they brought the case,and uh somebody else was
determined to have killed thatthat victim, and it was assumed
that Collins killed Jane Mixer,and uh DNA evidence in the
(22:59):
1980s, I believe it was, uhproved that the person who had
murdered uh Mixer was someoneelse.
So that's the one DNA aspect.
Now, the other uh that I heardfrom Washtenaw County Sheriff uh
(23:19):
uh Doug Harvey was that theyfound DNA on the hosiery of the
next to the last victim.
Her name was Alice Callum orCalom, I'm not sure how to
pronounce her name.
And uh apparently she had beenriding on the back of his
(23:40):
motorcycle in a short skirt, andhe had reached back and you
know, touched her on the thighwith you know sweaty hands.
So he got epophilial on uhfamily.
Hello, this is Radio Free Flint.
You're listening to ArthurBush.
Today's episode is with authorGregory Fronier, who's written a
book about serial killer JohnNorman's Collins.
Mr.
Collins operated around theUniversity of Michigan campus in
Ann Arbor in the late 1960s.
He was convicted of killing ayoung lady, sentenced to life in
(01:04):
prison without parole.
Mr.
Collins' crimes is believed tokill several other women, both
in Michigan and as well asCalifornia, gripped the state of
Michigan and the nation in thevastness of and the brutality of
his killings.
(01:24):
John Norman Collins gave riseto the term serial killer.
Before that, we never reallyreferred to them as serial
killers.
This Radio Free Flint podcastcomes to you by way of
anchor.fm.
(01:44):
We also have a website which islocated at
www.radiofreeflint.media.
That's www.radiofreflint.media,where you can see this episode
in video or follow any otherpodcast that episodes that we've
released.
And we hope that you would doso.
(02:06):
Also, uh we plan to put out anewsletter in the near future.
And if you'd like to uh get acopy of our newsletter once a
month, uh please go to thewebsite and subscribe, or you
can just send us an email and uhwe'll take care of it that way.
Thanks again for joining us.
Here's the episode.
(02:27):
Okay, we listened to Radio FreeFlint.
(02:51):
Today my guest is GregoryFournier, a retired professor
who lives in one of the greatestweather places in the United
States, San Diego, California.
Welcome, Greg.
Yeah, thank you for having me.
Well, uh Greg, uh, you uh thisis your second round here with
me, and you're the first authorthat I've invited back twice.
(03:14):
So uh either that says I'm hardup for guests or you're really
good.
And uh my audience really likedyour uh your uh time with us
when you talked to us about thepurple gang.
And uh so I thought I I thoughtI'd work on another book that
you did, uh although it's acouple of years ago.
(03:35):
Um this fascinating case.
Uh it's uh unsolved murder, theJohn Norman Collins case.
And I'd like to uh talk to youabout that.
You you wrote a book about it.
Gregory Fournier (03:47):
Yeah, Karen Salani, John Norman Collins
Unmasked.
And the unmasked part is that Idon't feel that there was ever
a good uh account of uh of whohe was and uh you know how he
got that way.
And uh uh and it's actuallybeen pretty well received.
(04:11):
The first book that came out,uh I hate to give a plug for it,
but it's called The MichiganMurders.
And uh the guy who wrote thatwrote it five years after the
fact.
Uh, and I wrote my book over 50years after the fact.
So I had the benefit ofhindsight, but I also had the
(04:33):
benefit of being on the campusat the time, understanding the
the campus culture, being in uhthat neighborhood, which was
just south of uh uh EasternMichigan University's uh campus.
And uh, you know, the studentscalled it the student ghetto
because the homes were you wereliving, you were you at one time
(04:57):
lived in Ypsilani at the sametime that John Norman Collins
lived there.
We were uh students at Eastern,he was a year ahead of me, but
he lived a block down the streetfrom me.
And before I knew about him andany of this uh you know ugly
business, uh, I had had a coupleof uh I don't want to call them
(05:21):
run-ins, but encounters uh withhim.
And uh they were alwaysnegative.
And uh uh, you know, one timehe took a swing at me.
Actually, he was trying toclothesline me while I was
walking down the street.
Um and I turned around realquick, you know, to get in a
(05:41):
defensive position because Ididn't want the guy to jump me
from behind.
Uh I didn't know what was goingon, and uh and he just kept
walking and walking and walking.
I I watched him uh walk to hishome.
Or well, he was renting a roomin a small little boarding
house, and uh, so I knew wherehe lived then, but I again did
(06:05):
not know uh what he was up to,and very few people uh knew what
he was up to.
But uh what he was up to ismurder, he murdered, as far as I
can discern, seven women, andhe put many more women, young
women, uh in harm's way, uhasking them to get on his
(06:28):
motorcycle or get in his car, oryou know, let's go here and
there.
Um, and a lot of them just feltuh I've spoken to a good many
of these ladies, and they justhad a kind of a an uneasy
feeling about him, you know, abad vibe.
But on the other hand, therewere people I've spoken to that
(06:51):
did get on the motorcycle, hedidn't murder them.
Uh uh and you know some wouldsay, you know, he seemed like a
nice guy, but he had no troublegetting a date.
He didn't have to kill thesewomen to have sex with them, uh,
(07:12):
to put it bluntly.
And uh uh so it it comes down,and I'm gonna just jump to the
chase with my opinion, andthat's all it is, uh, is that
John Collins was a uh uh acontrol killer.
Uh there's a term for it I justhad it and it slipped out of my
(07:36):
mind.
Power and control.
And I think that appealed tohim a lot.
And he had uh many chips on hisshoulder, but I think he had a
big one here from a domineeringmother, and he was the third
child uh of a divorce, and youknow, I'm gonna uh venture to
(08:03):
say that uh he was the thirdchild, he was an the unwanted
child.
Uh and there's background thatI give in the book about his
father and his mother.
Arthur Busch (08:13):
Yeah, let's uh let's let's go back here for
just a second and set the stage.
Uh uh this this guy becamefamous.
In fact, uh some people thinkthat he gave definition to what
was his the the term serialkiller, which until the 60s, we
(08:35):
really never had that in ourlexicon in Michigan or anywhere
else, did we?
Gregory Fournier (08:39):
No, it they were called multiple murders,
multiple murderer at the time,and it wasn't until a few years
later the golden age of serialkillers uh would be the 1970s
through the 1980s, and all ofthe big names that we're all so
familiar with, and they've hadbook after book and video after
(09:03):
video on them.
Arthur Busch (09:04):
Um he roamed the streets in the in the late 60s.
Gregory Fournier (09:14):
Yes, uh-huh.
He was before them.
And I dare say that he was theprototype uh for Ted Bundy.
If you you know study both ofthose serial killers, you'll
find that Bundy was so much likeCollins, psychologically, uh
(09:40):
socially, uh, you know, both uhwere ambitious.
Uh, you know, they there weredifferences, of course, but how
he killed and uh who he killed,very similar because they they
always uh you know went foreither the college-aged uh young
woman, or in John Collins'scase, he killed two teenagers, a
(10:04):
14-year-old and a person whowas 16, but she had only been 16
for 20 days.
So essentially she was 15 yearsold.
Arthur Busch (10:15):
So uh now Collins was a student uh as well, right?
Gregory Fournier (10:21):
Yes, he was an English student who was trying
to get his uh uh uh credentialin uh elementary education.
Uh the you've got the primary,you know, the the early grades,
and then you've got the you knowfourth, fifth, sixth grade, in
some cases seventh grade.
(10:41):
Uh so he was going for the uhuh you know younger students and
he wanted to be a uh uh a PEteacher and with an English uh
endorsement.
You know, it makes it a loteasier to get a job uh if if you
uh can teach something else.
(11:03):
And but he his I think his mainuh ambition there was to be a
coach and work with kids.
Arthur Busch (11:12):
Now he Collins also uh fit in at East in the
Eastern Michigan Universitycommunity at the time.
Gregory Fournier (11:22):
Yeah, and I can give you a little uh
scenario about that or synopsis,I should say.
Uh he did his first year ofcollege at Central Michigan
University in Mount Pleasant.
His brother went there, hisbrother was, I think, three or
four years older, and uh helived with his in his brother's
(11:45):
house of where he was renting.
Uh, but that first year he justdidn't like it, didn't feel
comfortable in Mount Pleasant.
And so he wanted to get closerto home, and because he was
pining for his high schoolgirlfriend, who they had broken
up, and he couldn't get over it,you know, a very common story.
(12:09):
You know, the the man justcan't face the fact that she's
not interested anymore, youknow, doesn't feel comfortable
uh with him.
And uh so he got back uh uhcloser by coming to eastern
Michigan, which was about 50miles from his home in Center
Line, a little bit north ofDetroit.
(12:31):
Uh I think Center Line is kindof city within a city, I think,
uh uh within Warren, Michigan.
And he uh would have, you know,he could ride with a his
motorcycle uh uh and in an houror less be home.
Uh and uh he tried to get backuh with his girlfriend once he
(12:54):
got back to Ypsilanti, that hadto be in 1966, and uh he asked
her out on a date, and I talkabout it in the book, um, and he
says, Do you think we he couldget back together again?
Um, and basically she said no.
So I think he felt like he hadthe rejection by uh of his
(13:17):
mother on the one hand, and therejection with the girlfriend on
the other.
And I don't think that he wasemotionally, psychologically um
able to get over either one ofthose things, and I think he
(13:37):
developed anger to a point ofmurder.
Arthur Busch (13:42):
Well, now he was a he was in a fraternity, I read
someplace.
Gregory Fournier (13:48):
He was a theta chi, which was the animal house
fraternity on Eastern's campus,and there were a bunch of jacks
who were dedicated to party andhardy, drinking a lot of
alcohol, and bagging women.
(14:14):
I'm trying to think of a betterway to say it, but that's
essentially what it was.
And of course, when the newfreshman class comes in, they
hold these uh uh kegers and soon, and they draw a lot of you
know young women to be said,it'd be a crowd, three, four
(14:34):
hundred people.
They'd have to close thestreet, and uh and so I think he
saw that as uh as a way to tomeet women.
Arthur Busch (14:48):
Well, Greg, uh this case this case drew more
than uh a little attention inMichigan at the time because I
remember uh when I was a kid,this scared the hell out of a
lot of people.
Gregory Fournier (15:04):
And the reason I named the book the way I did,
Terror in Ypsilani, was becauseuh the fear was profound and
widespread there more thananywhere.
Um and I've had so many peoplewho were children at the time uh
(15:26):
remember their parents notletting them go out of the
house, uh just being veryprotective, clamping down on
them.
And that leaves a bigimpression on a on a young kid.
Arthur Busch (15:40):
Yeah, now you would think that uh somebody who
was, you know, becoming ahousehold name within
southeastern Michigan would havebeen somebody whose dirty
deeds, if you will, uh wouldhave carried him into infamy for
a long time, but his famereally was short-lived.
Gregory Fournier (16:00):
And you know, I have a theory, I believe it's
more than a theory on why.
And it was because how his casewas handled, and uh Neil Fink
and Joseph Lewis L, uh Detroitlawyers, were were his lawyers,
(16:21):
and uh they uh Neil inparticular was a very tenacious
lawyer, and uh you know he'dobject at the top of, you know
uh, you know, just somethingcome up, bang, he'd be on it.
Uh so it was not a real smoothtrial, but the real story for
(16:45):
Collins not being better knownhas to uh go to the prosecutor
in uh Washtenaw County, and hehad uh the year before uh had a
man who was a killer of twohomosexual youths.
(17:08):
And uh he lived in uh uh hisname was Ralph Nuss, and he
lived in Ann Arbor, I think.
And uh one of the kids uh hekilled was uh you know, kids, uh
18, 19, 20 uh years of age, wasfrom Ipsy, and the other was
(17:29):
from of all places, Windsor,Ontario.
And uh he was convicted ofthose murders, and then there
was some kind of change in theMichigan court procedures or in
the sentencing law.
I'm not exactly certain whatthat uh circumstance was, you
(17:52):
know, at the top of my head, Icould I could find out, but uh
and so Nuss uh uh because of thechanges in sentencing and so
on, his lawyer got him off.
And uh so Delhi, the uhprosecutor in Ann Arbor, uh
(18:15):
wanted you know to put him backbehind bars.
He was still a dangerous man asfar as he was concerned.
And Nuss was able to walk onthat.
And part of the reason is thatuh there was uh both of the
(18:36):
murders uh were to were triedtogether, and so to he didn't
have a second case to fall backon.
So by trying to go after Nussagain was double jeopardy, and
he got out.
Okay, now talking aboutCollins.
When that case came out, uh theprosecutor remembered what had
(19:03):
happened just uh a yearprevious, and he made the
decision to only prosecuteCollins for one of the murders,
and I don't think he thought ofthe larger aspect of it in that
to be officially FBI certifiedserial killer, uh, you have to
(19:29):
have three separate murders witha cooling off period, uh,
similar MOs, and there were fouror five different categories.
Okay.
So Collins was only tried forone of the cases, even though
there were other very strongcases.
Arthur Busch (19:49):
And there were six other, were there six other
victims?
Gregory Fournier (19:52):
There were six other victims, and one of them
was from uh California, and thatwas a slam dunk case, uh which
I talk about in the book, and itinvolves Governor Ronald Reagan
and Governor William Milliken.
Um and Milliken would notextradite Collins, even though
(20:15):
there was a better case inCalifornia, and he would have
gotten did they have the deathpenalty then?
He would have gotten the deathpenalty if he had been
convicted, but there's noquestion uh that the the uh
prosecutors out there had uh allthe evidence uh they needed,
(20:37):
physical and circumstantialevidence.
Um so at any rate, uh two,three of the other uh Michigan
murders, uh Delhi could have uhbrought a case for them, but he
wasn't aware of you know howhistory would his decision would
(21:00):
tend to uh cloak Collins insome anonymity.
Uh because he if he had been aserial killer, other people
would have written about him andyou know he would have been
right with the the rest of of uhthe the infamous serial
(21:21):
killers.
Arthur Busch (21:22):
When your book came out in I'm sorry, I tucked
over top of it.
Gregory Fournier (21:28):
Excuse me.
Arthur Busch (21:30):
When when your book came out in 2016, it sort
of stirred up the hornet's nesta little bit, and there became
some interest in in the DNAevidence that had been
developed.
And I think it was the DetroitFree Press, or it might have
been you, discovered that atleast uh two samples, DNA
(21:54):
samples from two two of thevictims had never been tested.
They had possession of it, butthey didn't proceed to do
testing for some reason.
Gregory Fournier (22:06):
Uh Collins uh to talk about that first, uh
continually refused to give DNAuntil it was uh state law that
all prisoners had to you knowgive saliva and or blood
samples, whatever.
Um but uh by the time they uhcame around to DNA, one of the
(22:32):
cases, uh a family uh broughtthe case with the the DNA, and
uh well they brought the case,and uh somebody else was
determined to have killed thatthat victim, and it was assumed
that Collins killed Jane Mixer,and uh DNA evidence in the
(22:59):
1980s, I believe it was, uhproved that the person who had
murdered uh Mixer was someoneelse.
So that's the one DNA aspect.
Now, the other uh that I heardfrom Washtenaw County Sheriff uh
(23:19):
uh Doug Harvey was that theyfound DNA on the hosiery of the
next to the last victim.
Her name was Alice Callum orCalom, I'm not sure how to
pronounce her name.
And uh apparently she had beenriding on the back of his
(23:40):
motorcycle in a short skirt, andhe had reached back and you
know, touched her on the thighwith you know sweaty hands.
So he got epophilial on uhfamily.
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