November 10, 2025 • 42 mins
A child under the table, listening to elders swap stories about migrant camps and survival, grows up to ask a bigger question: who gets to author our history, and what shifts when we do? We sit down with documentary powerhouse Rick Perez to trace the thread from family lore to festival premieres, from Sundance boardrooms to borderlands studios, and from personal risk to collective visibility.
Rick unpacks the two-track life of an independent filmmaker: the creative highs of works like Caesar’s Last Fast and the hard math of sustaining a career when streamers chase celebrity docutainment. From his time at Sundance and the International Documentary Association, he reveals how the language of “excellence” can hide systemic bias, and offers a vivid “second telescope” analogy that explains why stories told by queer, Latinx, and borderland filmmakers don’t repeat the canon—they correct it. We explore Borderland Cinematic Arts, founded by Alex Rivera and Cristina Ibarra, and how its mission turns local experience into world-class storytelling.
Then we dive into The Four Fs—fighting, fleeing, feeding, and sex—Rick’s new short that probes how primordial drives surface in the lives of gay men. It’s an idea-led film that refuses to sanitize sexuality or fear, inviting honest talk about shame, desire, and adaptation. Rick shares casting choices that center racial, generational, and class diversity, and sketches a bold plan to serialize the concept across communities, from lesbians and trans folks to fundamentalist Christians, mapping how fear shapes behavior and belief.
Along the way, Rick credits Gay and Lesbian Latinos Unidos for giving him a family of choice and the confidence to merge identities that once felt separate. The takeaway is clear: representation isn’t a luxury—it’s the record that prevents erasure. If you value courageous documentary storytelling, hit play, share this with a friend, and leave a review so more listeners can find it. Subscribe for future conversations at the intersection of queer life, Latinx culture, and the borderlands.
Welcome to the RADIO QGLLU podcast, the show that TAKES A DEEP DIVE INTO WHAT THE QUEER, GAY, AND LESBIAN LATINE COMMUNITY IS TALKING ABOUT. Radio GLLU began in 1986, and now in its continued iteration, features dynamic stories from California and beyond.
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Episode Transcript
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Rita Gonzales (00:04):
Welcome to the Out Agenda, coming to an
archive.kpfk.org.
I'm Rita Gonzalez.
We're going to go into thissegment of Radio Q Glue.
Welcome to the Radio Q GluePodcast, the show that takes a
(00:29):
deep dive in what the queer,gay, and lesbian Latin community
is talking about.
I'm Rita Gonzalez.
I'm Lydia Otero.
I'm Mario J.
Eduardo Archuleta (00:37):
Navar.
And I'm Eduardo Archuleta.
Today on Radio Q Glue, wewelcome Richard Ray Perez, known
to many folks as Rick, apowerhouse in documentary
filmmaking and media leadership.
He currently serves as directorof Borderline Studios leading
storytelling initiativescentered on the US-Mexico
(01:01):
border.
Rick previously held leadershiproles as executive director of
the International DocumentaryAssociation, IDA, Director of
Acquisition and DistributionStrategies at GBH slash World
Channel, and director ofcreative partnerships at
Sundance Institute.
(01:23):
As a filmmaker, Rick directedand was executive producer of
Caesar's Last Fast, whichpremiered at Sundance and was
named by the New York Times asone of the 20th central films on
Latinx experience.
He also contributedsignificantly to brave new
(01:43):
films, producing and directingmultiple documentary series.
Rick is a proud, queer Latinxnative of Los Angeles and a
Harvard graduate.
Rick continues to advocate forrepresentation in media.
Today we explore his latestdocumentary, The Four F's, his
creative journey and hisexperiences building community
(02:06):
through storytelling.
Rita?
Rita Gonzales (02:10):
Rick, welcome to Radio Q Glue.
Now let's start at thebeginning.
What first drew you todocumentary filmmaking?
Rick Perez (02:18):
So I think it was in some ways it found me and I
found it.
And that source was um storiesmy aunts used to tell and my
(02:41):
mom.
So they would come over.
I had aunts who lived in theneighborhood in blocks over, and
they're much older.
My dad was the youngest of likenine kids.
And so I had aunts who were intheir 70s and 80s when I was a
kid, and they would tell thesegreat stories about being
migrant farm workers and whatthat experience was like.
And they would tell thesestories to my mom or retell them
(03:03):
to each other.
And I remember when I was alittle kid just sitting under
the table and listening to theseamazing stories.
You know, one story was about,you know, my dad shortly after
he was born, you know, in somemigrant, uh, oh no, this would
have been Mexico, because he'sborn in Mexico, that he was sick
and his mother, my grandmother,couldn't breastfeed him.
(03:23):
And so what they did was theythey uh cleaned a teeth of a
goat and had my dad suckle fromthat goat to get milk.
And I was like such a powerfulstory.
And of course, that experienceis very different than the house
we were living in, which is ahouse with plumbing, et cetera,
in a working class neighborhoodin the city of San Fernando in
(03:46):
the Northeast Valleys.
But it was uh such a powerfulimage and experience.
And there'd be stories likethat.
My you know, aunts woulddescribe they would arrive at a
migrant camp that wouldn't haveshelter.
And so they would build shelterout of reeds and wood and mud
to make walls to give themshelter while they're in those
(04:07):
camps.
So when I look back at them,like, wow, those stories about
these factual lived experienceswere fascinating to me.
Um, and then there was apivotal moment in college where
I saw a film called LosOlvidados, a famous film by Luis
Bunel, and it takes place inthe slums of Mexico City.
(04:27):
And in one of the scenes Irecall inside the home of one of
the characters, I thought, ohmy God, that looks like my
aunt's house in Mexico, youknow, and that dirt floor,
that's her dirt floor.
And these women, they look likepeople in my extended family.
And the bully in the film, akid named Heibel, looked like
(04:51):
this bully down the street whothrew a green plum on my at my
head and made me cry.
And collectively, that well,that first of all, that film
itself, I'm like, oh my God, ifthat is worthy of presenting in
the film form, and that was kindof a docudrama, so it was
scripted, it wasn't traditionaldocumentary.
(05:12):
Somehow my lived experience isworthy of this.
And so collectively, thatexperience I think helped me be
inspired by documentary film.
And then I had a couple ofcollege professors who were um
documentarians, and they werevery young at the time.
These were the type of guysthat just had warm hearts and
(05:36):
knew how to uh try to tap intoheart as a form of documentary.
So one guy was Ross McAlwee,who came from a southern
aristocratic family, butrecognized that I had the
potential to tell stories thatmay not have been told before.
And another guy was a guy namedRob Moss, who was actually from
Santa Monica, but he had endedup on the East Coast.
(05:59):
And he knew through his livedexperience about the Chicano
movement that I talked about,that my family was kind of
involved in.
So they were very nurturing.
And it wasn't a formal filmschool, it was a school that had
a filmmaking track that I thatyou applied to in the interview
and and get in, and more kidswant to get in than there's
(06:22):
space for.
But these two professors, youknow, allowed me to get in.
And by the time I graduated,the um one of the professors,
Ross McAlewee, took me aside andsaid, I think you have the
documentary I.
I'd encourage you to go intodocumentary.
And um he became a real sort ofimportant figure in the field,
an American documentary.
(06:43):
And I reflect on back on it.
I'm like, oh my God, RossMcAlewee told me I had the
documentary I.
Now, uh, despite that, or maybein spite that, I thought, and
he's telling me go intodocumentary.
For me, it was like tellingsomebody, go become a
professional poet, right?
And I thought that for me isthe fast track to poverty.
And I don't like I describesometimes, I grew up poor, I
(07:06):
don't want to grow old poor.
Uh, so immediately aftercollege, I didn't go into,
didn't start making films.
I did other media-related jobs.
But therein is the kernel ofwhat inspired me in a
documentary career during theperiod of my career when I was
making films.
And by the way, one of thefirst films I made was about uh
(07:28):
coming out.
We had to do a project, apersonal documentary for our
intermediate class.
And it started in the firstsemester, it started on on how I
was like awkward dating orasking women out, et cetera, et
cetera.
And by the second semester, Ideveloped a crush on somebody
who lived in our dorm.
And it became a film about mecoming out.
Lydia Otero (07:50):
Thanks, Rick, for sharing that.
I think we have similarexperiences when we were
children, in that I tried tolisten to the conversations and
learn more about my beginningsand about my family.
So thank you.
Yeah, uh so you have a longhistory since you uh started
(08:11):
working on documentaries.
You have a long history onworking on some of the most
influential or with some of themost influential documentary
institutions, includingSundance, IDA, and GBH World
Channel.
And how have these roles shapedyour approach to storytelling?
Rick Perez (08:34):
Sure.
So um the just to give you aquick synopsis of sort of the
trajectory.
So uh as I said, I did a bunchof media jobs outside of
college.
I worked in a newsroom, Iworked at a television network
as a technician.
Ultimately, those wereunfulfilling.
And around 2000, there was akind of a digital revolution in
(08:55):
filmmaking where uh you can buya broadcast quality camera for
about 2,000.
And I ended up making my firstfilm, which was called
Unprecedented about the 2000presidential election.
And that kind of launched awhole series of films that I
made that culminated in Caesar'sLast Fast, the documentary
about Cesar Chavez.
(09:16):
Now, by the time I was makingCaesar's Last Fast, that took
seven years.
I realized that for me, theactual making of films was uh
not sustainable economically.
Realized that uh makingindependent documentaries and
making a living are twodifferent things.
Out of my work on the Chavezfilm, Caesar's Last Fast, I
(09:38):
developed a relationship withSundance Institute, and there
was a job opening there, andthey hired me to oversee this
program.
So I pivoted to startsupporting uh independent
documentary filmmakers throughfunding, through creative
support, designing programs.
So there is this part of mycareer as a maker, and then part
(10:00):
of my career doing artistsupport and granting.
And that was particularlyfulfilling in a couple of ways.
Because I had been a filmmaker,I knew how hard it is to make a
film, how difficult to make anindependent documentary, to get
the funding and to convince thefunders your film is worthy, all
(10:22):
of that.
And once I started working atSundance, and I kind of knew
this already, I knew howdifficult it was for filmmakers
of color to make films.
Um, there are some filmmakerswho come from privileged
backgrounds and they don't havethe same economic pressures,
they don't have the same accessto uh individual donors and
(10:44):
philanthropy.
So at Sundance I recognizedhow, you know, you might say how
the sausage is made.
There wasn't a totalrecognition of the systemic bias
around funding filmmakers ofcolor.
So knowing that, I tried towork within the institute to
develop more awareness aroundthat.
And of course, you know,sometimes a prestigious
(11:06):
institute, very smart, liberalpeople, they don't want to be
told that they're part of asystemic problem or that they're
discriminatory in any way.
And so there's always thisnotion around fighting behind
excellence.
We support excellent films,right?
Or if a person of color wouldcome with a film for funding,
(11:27):
sometimes the response is, oh,um, we already supported a film
about that topic, or that sortof has been told before.
And what I uh try to interceptis that story has been told
before through white eyes.
And so how do we shift theperspective?
I developed and applied uh, insome ways, a bigger thinking
(11:50):
around the systems ofdocumentaries, storytelling, and
nonfiction.
And one of the there's ananalogy that I started to apply,
and it resonated with some orother people.
Uh, and it has to do with uhastronomers first applying the
telescope.
Um, when they applied, got atelescope, they looked at a
(12:12):
celestial body, like, oh my God,there's all this detail that's
amazing.
Uh, but one of the astronomersgot the idea of what if you take
another telescope, position itsomeplace else, and focus it and
look at that same celestialbody.
And what they did is they gotthat, they got much more detail
(12:33):
and much more information.
And so I said, let's imaginethat second telescope around
these underserved filmmakerswhose stories may have been told
before by white people orstories that have not been told,
that we are going to get thatmuch more detail and nuance
around the larger nonfictionhuman experience.
(12:54):
And that's really sort of oneof the discoveries that I made
in my work at Sundance.
Rita Gonzales (13:00):
Thank you for sharing that.
Rick, this is Rita again.
Um, I love your analogies.
Yes.
It's just there's just the wayyou say things, you present it,
I can see it.
So uh thank you for that.
Rick Perez (13:14):
Well, I'm a visual thinker.
I you know, I discovered thatafter college, but it's great.
Rita Gonzales (13:19):
Now, your film, Caesar's Last Fast, was
recognized by the New York Timesas one of the 20 essential
films on the Latinx experience.
What inspired you to take onthat story?
Rick Perez (13:32):
So it's interesting.
Um in some ways it came to me,in some ways, my producer on the
film, Molly O'Brien, said thatwas kind of destined to make the
film.
Um, so there's the the moreindirect inspiration, and then
there's the more direct.
So I'll start with the indirectinspiration.
And this was it was almost arepressed memory that didn't
(13:54):
emerge until I started workingon the film.
So when I was like four or fiveyears old, I was in Head Start
in my hometown of San Fernando,California.
It's like 1969, 1970.
And um Chicano students fromCal State Northridge used to
come and volunteer at the HeadStart.
Because, of course, it was partof the social movement, the uh
war against poverty, et cetera.
(14:15):
Uh, and of course, and all thekids were little Chicano kids
and Mexican kids in my HeadStart.
And we would get this freelunch uh, you know, as part of
the program.
And so one day we're sittingdown, having this free lunch.
Uh, and part of that free lunchwas this horrific fruit
cocktail, which is bits of fruitand heavy syrup that they
(14:35):
should not be serving children,this heavy sugary syrup.
So sitting down, having thislunch, and this Chicano student,
when it comes to eating hisfruit cocktail, I noticed he
just casually starts pluckingthe grapes out of his fruit
cocktail.
And I was very curious.
I'm like, wow, what's going on?
So I was like, hey, why are youplucking the grapes out of the
(14:57):
fruit cocktail?
And he holds up with grape andhe said, well, because the
people who own the grapefields,they treat the people who pick
the grapes horribly.
They pay them very littlemoney, they make them live in
shacks, they yell at them, andwhen the people who pick the
grapes complain, they fire them.
(15:20):
It's like, for this reason, Ican't eat these grapes.
And he put them aside.
And by then, all my classmatesat the table were captivated by
the story.
And I looked down at my grapesand they suddenly became very
ugly.
And I couldn't eat them either.
So I started plucking thegrapes out of my fruit cocktail,
and the other kids startedplucking the grapes out of their
(15:42):
fruit cocktail.
And so the rest of head start,and all through elementary
school, when they would serve usthat fruit cocktail, we
wouldn't eat the grapes.
Now, we didn't know at the timethat that was part of a
national grape boycott led byCesar Chavez Dolores Huerta and
the UFW.
But we'd unknowingly becamepart of that boycott.
(16:05):
So very early on, I had thisexperience related to the work
of Cesar Chavez.
Now, fast forward many yearslater, I was working for um an
organization called Brave NewFilms.
Uh, they do a lot of politicalmedia.
The founder of the company,Robert Greenwald, had mentored
(16:25):
me and given me a lot of workand uh helped launch my career
when I was doing paid uhfilmmaking.
And he was thinking of doing uma film about Cesar Chavez.
And so we met with uh we metwith the members of the Cesar
Chavez Foundation, and Robertwanted me to be a producer on
(16:46):
the project Robert was going todirect because he knew my
background.
So we pitched them the idea,they considered it, and part of
the process of trying to make afilm on that scale is that you
want the exclusive rights tomake a film about somebody so
that there is you're not makingyou're not competing with
somebody else.
And so uh Robert was seekingexclusive rights, and then
(17:10):
ultimately the um the ChavezFoundation said, well, somebody
else has a non-exclusiveagreement, a friend of the
families, so we can't give youthat exclusivity.
So Robert dropped the projectand kind of went away.
And then um a couple weekslater, I get a phone call from I
think it was Julie Chavez, uhJulie Chavez Rodriguez.
(17:32):
And she says, Hey, Rick, I knowI know that Robert's not
pursuing the project anymorebecause the other filmmaker has
non-exclusive rights.
The other filmmaker is a friendof mine.
Are you willing to talk to herabout, you know, working on the
film or something, or giving heradvice?
Maybe she could work withRobert.
I said, sure, of course.
(17:53):
Um, so I get on the phone anduh a woman introduces herself.
She's like, hi, I'm LorenaParley.
I've been working on this filmfor 10 years.
I used to volunteer for theUFW.
I was um their publicist.
And for 10 years I've beentrying to make this film, but
I've been having trouble raisingthe money.
Um, I only have non-exclusiverights.
(18:13):
You know, do you think RobertGreenwald would help maybe
produce this project?
And by then I knew Robert hadmoved on to another project that
he hired me for.
And so I said he's he's nolonger interested.
And so uh she then said, Well,uh, are you interested in
helping me work on this project?
(18:34):
Because I could use a producerto help me.
Uh and she described what thematerial she had.
She said, I have 85 hours ofChavez-related footage.
I have a whole batch, about 16hours that had never been seen
by the public, around a fast heundertook in 1988.
I was his publicist, um, so Ihave all this material.
Are you willing to help?
(18:54):
And I thought, wow, that soundslike amazing material.
Um, so I said, Yeah, totallywilling to help.
I said, I just started a jobfor Robert Greenwald, so I'll be
available in six months.
So in six months I can helpout.
And she said, uh, Lorrainesays, Well, I need somebody to
help me now because I'm beingtreated for breast cancer and I
(19:16):
could only work on the film twoweeks out of the month.
And so I was taken aback, andI'm like, I just got into this
contract, but in six months, ifyou haven't found somebody to
help you make this film, I'llhelp you make this film, just
give me a call.
I'll work per bono or defer,however, I'll help you make this
film.
Six months later, I don't hearfrom her.
(19:37):
I'm assuming she found somebodyelse.
About nine months later, I geta phone call from this elderly
gentleman and he says, Hi, I'mLorena Parley's stepfather.
Lorena died last month ofbreast cancer.
And she left your name in hernotes for us to contact you to
see if you'd finish her film.
Do you want to finish her film?
(19:58):
And at that point, what do yousay?
And so that's how the film cameto me.
Um, and it was a whole longprocess then from that point to
actually making the film.
It was kind of, it became amission for somebody I spoke to
on the film for maybe an hourand never met in person.
Um, but someday I knew it wasdedicated to the movement.
So then um it took a year forme to then negotiate the rights
(20:24):
to use the footage with Lorena'suh stepfather and and mother,
and then to then get the rightsthat Lorena had with the Chavez
Foundation transferred to me,and I had a lawyer do that and
do that so that I got exclusiverights.
So that's how I embarked onthis project.
(20:44):
Now, when I saw the film thatLorena left behind, um, she left
a very, very rough film thatshe was editing on VHS to VHS
film.
I looked at it and realizedthat's a film I'm not sure I can
make or I can finish.
It was the type of traditionaldocumentary with a narrator and
(21:07):
what I call, and hopefully itdoesn't sound too disparaging,
but I would call it a videotextbook that was structured
chronologically from the timeshe was born to his death.
And when I started looking atthe footage, I remember popping
in a tape that said somethinglike, you know, day one.
And I pop in the tape, and thenthere's a very dramatic press
(21:30):
conference with Martin Sheen andum uh Luis Valdez and uh other
you know figures, James EdwardJames Owen's.
And it says, we're here today,the press is there, season's
gone on this fast um because ofthe use of pesticides.
We're here to draw attention tothe use of pesticides, we're
(21:52):
here to support him and toannounce Caesar's fasting.
And then I pop in the nexttape, and it's like a few days
later, and it's more dramatic.
So they're announcing we don'tknow how long Caesar's gonna
fast.
Um, it could go on indefinite.
He was then 61 years old, couldaffect his health.
And as I saw that sequence oftapes, I saw a very dramatic
(22:14):
escalating tension and conflictwith suspense around when will
Caesar end this fast?
Will it, you know, could itkill him?
You know, will his health beaffected?
So immediately I saw adifferent film structured around
Caesar's 1988 fast.
And I went back to Lorena'sfamily and I said, I see a
(22:35):
different film.
Um, I can't make the film shewas planning to make.
Will you support me making thefilm I see?
Um and so they thought about itfor a week or two and and let
me make the film that I saw.
Eduardo Archuleta (22:50):
Uh I'm Edward, and uh you're now the
director at Borderland CinematicArts.
Can you tell us a little bitmore about the studio's mission
and your vision for it?
Rick Perez (23:02):
Sure.
So Borderland Cinematic Artswas founded by two very talented
Latina and Latino filmmakers,Alex Rivera and Cristina Ivada,
who are MacArthur Fellows, alsoknown as MacArthur geniuses.
So they were offered positionsat Arizona State as uh
professors, and they acceptpositions on the condition that
(23:25):
they would be allowed to startan academic center that is
Borderland Cinematic Arts.
They were um, they accepted theposition on the condition that
they would be able to start anacademic center called
Borderlands Cinematic Arts.
Borderland Cinematic Arts is aspace where world-class
filmmakers create films anchoredin the social, political, and
(23:48):
cultural experience of theborderlands.
Um, we do that by supportingmid-career filmmakers uh telling
stories in that space.
And we also uh program publicevents around independent
filmmaking focused on theborderlands.
So, as I said, Alex andChristina founded it.
(24:09):
And after I left IDA, theyhelped me um launch it and
really sort of drive the missionand help execute the mission.
Um, so it I have to say it'sreally their vision, and I'm
there to support their vision.
Um, but what I bring to it isthe experience of having created
artist programs in my otherjobs uh to ensure that the
(24:33):
programs we launch are effectiveand and kind of meet our goals
within this this um thismission.
Mario J. Novoa (24:41):
Thank you.
This is Mario.
Uh let's dive into your latestproject, the four F's.
What inspired the documentaryand what are its core themes?
Rick Perez (24:54):
So there are two points of inspiration for the
four F's.
There's the sort of the bigger,broader idea around um around
behavior.
And so when I was in college, Itook a class in what was then
the emerging field of uhevolutionary uh sociology.
(25:14):
Or so um there was uh um therewere fields of the social
sciences that were starting toum take in and work with the
ideas presented in in evolutionand specifically human
evolution.
And so there are these youngacademics who were working at
the intersection of sociologyand and evolution in this
(25:38):
emerging field, and part of thatfield branched off into what we
now call evolutionarypsychology.
Lydia Otero (25:45):
Can you share with us a little bit more about what
the four Fs is?
Rick Perez (25:50):
So the four Fs is a short film about how primordial
behaviors express themselves inthe lives of gay men.
And it's based on a concept inevolutionary psychology that all
behavior necessary for survivaland adaptation comes down to
four expressions, and that isfighting, fleeing, feeding, and
(26:16):
sex, the four F's that's wherethe idea came from.
And I always fascinated by whatmotivates human behavior.
So, you know, I've alwayspondered that as I've gone
through the world like, why dowe do what we do on an
individual micro scale and on alarger societal scale that
creates systems of oppression orsystems of empathy and support,
(26:39):
etc.
When I worked at the IDA, um,it was a very difficult
transition to come in as theexecutive director.
There was strong opposition bysome of the senior staff there.
And what I saw was the seniorstaff retreating into a place of
(27:01):
fear, fear of change, fear ofthis whole unknown.
And it ended up becoming a verydisruptive relationship that
then led out into the largerindependent documentary field
and was written about in some ofthe trades.
(27:21):
And so ultimately, thatposition, because of this
disruption, it was not tenablefor me.
So I left the job after 18months.
And I caused to reflect onwhere was where did that
disruption come from?
And it came from the sense offear and a sense of needing to
fight.
And so I wanted to examine umthat through storytelling.
(27:46):
And um I thought, well, whydon't I focus on a specific
demographic group?
What does the four F's looklike and how do they manifest
themselves in the lives of gaymen?
Uh so Mario, as one of theproducers, and my husband Gary
Thompson, we talked to 23 someodd men to get a range of races,
(28:11):
ethnicities, and ages to seewho is comfortable talking about
how the four Fs manifest intheir life.
And so what's emerging out ofthat is uh a short documentary
called The Four F's.
And that's my latest project,but also my venture back into
filmmaking.
So the last film I made wasCaesar's Last Fast in 2014, and
(28:35):
we're on the verge of completingthe four F's.
It's it's an interesting,difficult film because unlike my
other films, which are verystory-based, like there's a
sequence of events that leadsomewhere.
This is a film that's kind ofinspired and enveloped, and
everything is connected by anidea, which is a different kind
of structure.
Lydia Otero (28:54):
I'm uh so fascinated by the four Fs.
I can see how interesting itwould be to interview all those
gay men that you mentioned.
You said like 30 of them.
Rick Perez (29:08):
So um we interviewed 30, but ultimately we cast like
15 or 13 or 15, something likethat.
Yeah.
Lydia Otero (29:16):
How did you decide who to cast?
Rick Perez (29:18):
Um, so our casting was based on uh the
participants' ability to tell usa story and their comfort level
telling us a story.
But also we wanted a range oflived experiences.
So we are very aware of uhracial and ethnic background and
age diversity.
(29:38):
And to the extent that we cancast for class background, we
also took that into um intoaccount.
And this is, of course, comingout of, although I already had a
sense of like the need for thediverse voices that I expressed,
you know, with the thetelescope analogy, but it's also
coming out of the the George.
(29:59):
Floyd and Black Lives Era,where there's this intense uh
focus and awareness, ablossoming of awareness around
the myopic lens through which wehad been hearing most
storytelling.
So, of course, we wanted tohelp dismantle that primarily
(30:20):
white middle class lens.
And it's particularly, youknow, uh a lot of gay themed
films have been told through thelens of white men.
Um, so again, we were we werevery aware of that.
So that informed uh ourdecisions on who to uh
ultimately interview, speak to.
Lydia Otero (30:38):
Great.
And so then I mean, you'retalking about these issues uh
that are so important um todifferent generations, right?
People of my generation and andcertainly of Madio's
generation.
Rick Perez (30:53):
I mean, one thing I wanted uh to embrace is
particularly male sexuality.
And the reality is that malesexuality is, we can say,
robust, and it's a complicatedsituation, particularly of men
of men of color, because oursexuality and homosexuality can
(31:15):
be a source of shame.
But of course, it's a naturalfunction and in fact a necessary
scientific function around uhwhen it comes to evolution.
Now, gay men, becausehistorically, we don't procreate
a whole nuanced interpretationon the evolutionary value of
homosexuality.
(31:36):
We can go into that in a bit,but no, not at all.
I try to approach storytellingand my thinking uh with a sense
of fearlessness and not tryingto whitewash stuff.
And that includes not trying toself-censor.
In nonfiction storytelling anduh documentary storytelling, the
(31:57):
power of it is that you canarrive at a place of knowledge
and passing along knowledge.
But if you're filtering andself-censoring or worried about
what the public would think, andthat's that's a hurdle to
trying to get at uh somefundamental truths.
(32:18):
So some people like, oh, wedon't want to show our dirty
laundry, gay men having sex orbeing, you know, what we might
call judgmentally hypersexual.
You know, no, no, men have sex,men are sexual, you know, and
they're often granted unhealthyexpressions of sexuality.
But the reality is that we aresexual beings, and I don't want
(32:44):
to um deny that.
In fact, I'm curious aboutexamining that.
Lydia Otero (32:50):
Great.
So you're the expert and hasworked in the documentary
industry.
Uh, do you think you'll facechallenges in the future
regarding its distribution?
Rick Perez (33:01):
Well, right now it's very difficult for independent
documentary to find distributionin general, because the the um
the industry has contracted.
Um, so there was a time whenduring the rise of the
streamers, when they discovered,oh my God, documentary
filmmaking is great, they wereacquiring all these independent
documentaries.
(33:21):
Caesar's Last Fast was acquiredfor three years by Netflix,
etc.
Um, and then we are gettingpaychecks and great.
Now that model, they spent toomuch money on that model.
And between spending too muchmoney and discovering, wait, we
can make our own documentariesfor cheaper.
Um, the opportunities forindependent films to get
(33:43):
acquired by the streamers justdisappeared.
Then they also discovered, oh,we know what people are
watching, how long we'rewatching, right?
Because we have the metrics onNetflix, they know when you stop
watching, they know what youwatch, they know what you watch
till the end.
And these and they recognizeoh, people want to watch mass
(34:04):
audiences that get moresubscribers, what we call
docutainment.
That is celebrity documentariesand true crime.
So that really skews and that'ssadly informing mostly what's
out there now.
So it's within that universethat we are releasing the four
F's, which on top of like beingan independent documentary, it's
(34:25):
a short film.
It's like 25 minutes.
So I have no idea what thedistribution potential is for
it.
Uh, but in some ways, I didn'tmake it for that.
I made it out of curiosity andexploration uh around how
primordial behaviors manifest inthe lives of gay men.
And what I hope to do, if thereare any funders out there
(34:49):
listening, is serialize it.
Because how do the four Fsmanifest in the lives of
lesbians, of transgender people,of fundamentalist Christians?
Um, not only in the film do weexamine the four F's, fear isn't
a four F, but fear isunderlying all the four F's.
We've very taught uh explicitlytalked about what are the
(35:12):
deepest fears of some of thepersons participating in the
film.
So we really go deep into whatare the fears of these uh
multi-generational gay men.
But also, wouldn't it becurious to see what are the
fears of lesbians, oftransgender people, of
fundamentalist Christians?
How does that inform theirbehavior, their biases, etc.?
(35:36):
How might that inform changingbehavior, self-awareness?
Lydia Otero (35:44):
Thank you, Rick.
I'm so excited about the fourFs.
I mean, I can't wait.
Eduardo Archuleta (35:49):
It's Edwardloo again.
And just wanted to bring upthat you have a history with gay
and lesbian Latinos Unidos.
Can you share what that meantfor you, both professionally and
personally, to be a part ofGlue and among the other gay and
lesbian Latina leaders andcreators?
Rick Perez (36:09):
I am blessed to have found Glue at an important part
of my life.
So um, from the Los Angelesarea, and after I went to school
outside of Boston, after Igraduated from college, I had
come out of the closet, had aboyfriend who followed me out uh
here to LA.
And I had a very strongidentity as a Chicano uh and a
(36:32):
Latino, uh, but I had anentirely different separate
identity as a gay man.
And so the gay people I knew incollege were largely white,
although I did have a very goodfriend who was from Wilmington,
who was half Chicano and halfFilipino, uh, and a lesbian from
uh from college who was fromInglewood, but it wasn't part of
a broader community.
We're part of this larger whitecommunity of gay people.
(36:56):
Ultimately, and rightly so, myboyfriend left me, and I was
alone without support andcommunity.
And I trying to remember how Ifound glue.
But I remember showing up to ameeting, and there was this
whole community of smart,beautiful Latino, les Latino
(37:20):
lesbians and gay men that, like,wow, these are my people.
It was an intersection of thatof identities that up to that
point had been separate.
So that I sort of describedmyself as second Jan Glue, um,
because I came in after thefounders, you know, had did a
lot of work.
Rita was still involved, butum, you know, at the time, uh,
(37:42):
the active members was RonGutierrez, Jose Hernandez, uh,
Valentino Sandoval, who allbecame very close friends and
inspirations.
But like many peopleexperienced in Glue, they became
my family of choice.
And they taught me how to mergemy both of my identities in a
healthy affirmative way, butcompletely enriching and
(38:05):
experience and owe thatexperience to uh to my friends
in Glue who became not onlyfriends in this movement that
were doing actual work, and ofcourse the blossoming of that
work has been a stad, but alsouh creating family in and way
before we were traditionallyaccepted by our our birth
(38:28):
families.
So I think the first gluemeeting I attended was I'm gonna
guess 90 91 or 92.
Mario J. Novoa (38:37):
This is Mario again, as a queer Latin
filmmaker, what advice do youhave for the next generation of
storytellers fromunderrepresented communities?
Rick Perez (38:48):
So I used to think that documentary filmmaking and
nonfiction filmmaking was uh anoptional luxury.
You do it if you can, if youcould afford it, etc.
What I come to believe is thatactually it's necessary.
Because it's necessary to bepart of the larger global human
(39:13):
narrative.
And unless we're creating andtelling these stories, our
stories from our point of viewwill go untold and we'll be
unseen.
And they will, you know, rightnow we're living in a period
period of erasure.
We won't even have the storiesto be erased.
So what I would tell them iswhat you're doing is a necessary
(39:34):
practice to capturing ourversion of the human experience,
which is just as valid aseverybody else's.
And so you have to do it.
Now it is very hard to do it.
As I said, making uhindependent documentaries and
making a living are twodifferent things.
And what I've learned uh on theinstitutional side when I've
(39:57):
worked at places like Sundanceand the International
Documentary Association is thatthere are more valid films
worthy of getting funding thanthere are funds available.
So the demand exceeds thesupply.
So how do you have thatpersistence to keep making a
film if you're under-resourcedor not resourced at all?
(40:19):
So there's a challenge in thatand a conundrum.
But the bottom line is it mustbe done if we are to be heard,
seen, and to capture the valuethat we give to the broader
human and lived experience.
Rita Gonzales (40:37):
What does the future hold for you?
How do people follow your work?
Rick Perez (40:43):
Wow.
So um, I have no idea what thefuture holds for me.
And I'm learning to be okaywith that.
Oh, people follow me.
You know, I'm not on socialmedia, right?
I mean, I have a coupleaccounts, I monitor them, you
know, and sort of, but I'm notactively in that dialogue.
So the best way to connect withme and my work is to watch
(41:09):
Caesar's Last Vass on Apple TVPlus.
That's the best way.
And in some ways, I think, asfar, and this is my subjective
judgment, that right now I thinkthat's the most significant
contribution I've made to thedocumentary film world and to
our community of Latinos andChicanos and Chicanos.
And that in some ways I'm justproud of that story.
(41:31):
And somebody told me, as theNew York Times recognized, and
uh somebody told me this uh thatI'd made the definitive
documentary about Cesar Chavez.
I'm like, how flattering.
That was created by a gay manat Chicano, that I got the
blessing and the luxury to to dothat and share that.
So my advice is the best way tofollow me is to watch Caesar's
(41:53):
Last Fast on Apple TV Plus.
Mario J. Novoa (41:56):
We'd like to thank our guest Rick Betis, who
was on our show today.
My name is Mario J.
Navoa.
I'm Lidiotero.
I'm Eduardo Archuleto.
Rita Gonzales (42:05):
And I'm Rita Gonzalez.
Radio Q Glue is a segment ofthe Out Agenda.
And we want to hear from you.
You can like us on our Facebookpage or email us at the
outagenda at gmail.com, or youcan visit our website on
BuzzFroute under Radio QGlue orthe Glue Archives.
(42:28):
Thanks for listening and have awonderful week.
And remember that being out isthe first step to being equal.
Now stay tuned for this wayout.
Welcome to the Out Agenda, coming to an
archive.kpfk.org.
I'm Rita Gonzalez.
We're going to go into thissegment of Radio Q Glue.
Welcome to the Radio Q GluePodcast, the show that takes a
(00:29):
deep dive in what the queer,gay, and lesbian Latin community
is talking about.
I'm Rita Gonzalez.
I'm Lydia Otero.
I'm Mario J.
Eduardo Archuleta (00:37):
Navar.
And I'm Eduardo Archuleta.
Today on Radio Q Glue, wewelcome Richard Ray Perez, known
to many folks as Rick, apowerhouse in documentary
filmmaking and media leadership.
He currently serves as directorof Borderline Studios leading
storytelling initiativescentered on the US-Mexico
(01:01):
border.
Rick previously held leadershiproles as executive director of
the International DocumentaryAssociation, IDA, Director of
Acquisition and DistributionStrategies at GBH slash World
Channel, and director ofcreative partnerships at
Sundance Institute.
(01:23):
As a filmmaker, Rick directedand was executive producer of
Caesar's Last Fast, whichpremiered at Sundance and was
named by the New York Times asone of the 20th central films on
Latinx experience.
He also contributedsignificantly to brave new
(01:43):
films, producing and directingmultiple documentary series.
Rick is a proud, queer Latinxnative of Los Angeles and a
Harvard graduate.
Rick continues to advocate forrepresentation in media.
Today we explore his latestdocumentary, The Four F's, his
creative journey and hisexperiences building community
(02:06):
through storytelling.
Rita?
Rita Gonzales (02:10):
Rick, welcome to Radio Q Glue.
Now let's start at thebeginning.
What first drew you todocumentary filmmaking?
Rick Perez (02:18):
So I think it was in some ways it found me and I
found it.
And that source was um storiesmy aunts used to tell and my
(02:41):
mom.
So they would come over.
I had aunts who lived in theneighborhood in blocks over, and
they're much older.
My dad was the youngest of likenine kids.
And so I had aunts who were intheir 70s and 80s when I was a
kid, and they would tell thesegreat stories about being
migrant farm workers and whatthat experience was like.
And they would tell thesestories to my mom or retell them
(03:03):
to each other.
And I remember when I was alittle kid just sitting under
the table and listening to theseamazing stories.
You know, one story was about,you know, my dad shortly after
he was born, you know, in somemigrant, uh, oh no, this would
have been Mexico, because he'sborn in Mexico, that he was sick
and his mother, my grandmother,couldn't breastfeed him.
(03:23):
And so what they did was theythey uh cleaned a teeth of a
goat and had my dad suckle fromthat goat to get milk.
And I was like such a powerfulstory.
And of course, that experienceis very different than the house
we were living in, which is ahouse with plumbing, et cetera,
in a working class neighborhoodin the city of San Fernando in
(03:46):
the Northeast Valleys.
But it was uh such a powerfulimage and experience.
And there'd be stories likethat.
My you know, aunts woulddescribe they would arrive at a
migrant camp that wouldn't haveshelter.
And so they would build shelterout of reeds and wood and mud
to make walls to give themshelter while they're in those
(04:07):
camps.
So when I look back at them,like, wow, those stories about
these factual lived experienceswere fascinating to me.
Um, and then there was apivotal moment in college where
I saw a film called LosOlvidados, a famous film by Luis
Bunel, and it takes place inthe slums of Mexico City.
(04:27):
And in one of the scenes Irecall inside the home of one of
the characters, I thought, ohmy God, that looks like my
aunt's house in Mexico, youknow, and that dirt floor,
that's her dirt floor.
And these women, they look likepeople in my extended family.
And the bully in the film, akid named Heibel, looked like
(04:51):
this bully down the street whothrew a green plum on my at my
head and made me cry.
And collectively, that well,that first of all, that film
itself, I'm like, oh my God, ifthat is worthy of presenting in
the film form, and that was kindof a docudrama, so it was
scripted, it wasn't traditionaldocumentary.
(05:12):
Somehow my lived experience isworthy of this.
And so collectively, thatexperience I think helped me be
inspired by documentary film.
And then I had a couple ofcollege professors who were um
documentarians, and they werevery young at the time.
These were the type of guysthat just had warm hearts and
(05:36):
knew how to uh try to tap intoheart as a form of documentary.
So one guy was Ross McAlwee,who came from a southern
aristocratic family, butrecognized that I had the
potential to tell stories thatmay not have been told before.
And another guy was a guy namedRob Moss, who was actually from
Santa Monica, but he had endedup on the East Coast.
(05:59):
And he knew through his livedexperience about the Chicano
movement that I talked about,that my family was kind of
involved in.
So they were very nurturing.
And it wasn't a formal filmschool, it was a school that had
a filmmaking track that I thatyou applied to in the interview
and and get in, and more kidswant to get in than there's
(06:22):
space for.
But these two professors, youknow, allowed me to get in.
And by the time I graduated,the um one of the professors,
Ross McAlewee, took me aside andsaid, I think you have the
documentary I.
I'd encourage you to go intodocumentary.
And um he became a real sort ofimportant figure in the field,
an American documentary.
(06:43):
And I reflect on back on it.
I'm like, oh my God, RossMcAlewee told me I had the
documentary I.
Now, uh, despite that, or maybein spite that, I thought, and
he's telling me go intodocumentary.
For me, it was like tellingsomebody, go become a
professional poet, right?
And I thought that for me isthe fast track to poverty.
And I don't like I describesometimes, I grew up poor, I
(07:06):
don't want to grow old poor.
Uh, so immediately aftercollege, I didn't go into,
didn't start making films.
I did other media-related jobs.
But therein is the kernel ofwhat inspired me in a
documentary career during theperiod of my career when I was
making films.
And by the way, one of thefirst films I made was about uh
(07:28):
coming out.
We had to do a project, apersonal documentary for our
intermediate class.
And it started in the firstsemester, it started on on how I
was like awkward dating orasking women out, et cetera, et
cetera.
And by the second semester, Ideveloped a crush on somebody
who lived in our dorm.
And it became a film about mecoming out.
Lydia Otero (07:50):
Thanks, Rick, for sharing that.
I think we have similarexperiences when we were
children, in that I tried tolisten to the conversations and
learn more about my beginningsand about my family.
So thank you.
Yeah, uh so you have a longhistory since you uh started
(08:11):
working on documentaries.
You have a long history onworking on some of the most
influential or with some of themost influential documentary
institutions, includingSundance, IDA, and GBH World
Channel.
And how have these roles shapedyour approach to storytelling?
Rick Perez (08:34):
Sure.
So um the just to give you aquick synopsis of sort of the
trajectory.
So uh as I said, I did a bunchof media jobs outside of
college.
I worked in a newsroom, Iworked at a television network
as a technician.
Ultimately, those wereunfulfilling.
And around 2000, there was akind of a digital revolution in
(08:55):
filmmaking where uh you can buya broadcast quality camera for
about 2,000.
And I ended up making my firstfilm, which was called
Unprecedented about the 2000presidential election.
And that kind of launched awhole series of films that I
made that culminated in Caesar'sLast Fast, the documentary
about Cesar Chavez.
(09:16):
Now, by the time I was makingCaesar's Last Fast, that took
seven years.
I realized that for me, theactual making of films was uh
not sustainable economically.
Realized that uh makingindependent documentaries and
making a living are twodifferent things.
Out of my work on the Chavezfilm, Caesar's Last Fast, I
(09:38):
developed a relationship withSundance Institute, and there
was a job opening there, andthey hired me to oversee this
program.
So I pivoted to startsupporting uh independent
documentary filmmakers throughfunding, through creative
support, designing programs.
So there is this part of mycareer as a maker, and then part
(10:00):
of my career doing artistsupport and granting.
And that was particularlyfulfilling in a couple of ways.
Because I had been a filmmaker,I knew how hard it is to make a
film, how difficult to make anindependent documentary, to get
the funding and to convince thefunders your film is worthy, all
(10:22):
of that.
And once I started working atSundance, and I kind of knew
this already, I knew howdifficult it was for filmmakers
of color to make films.
Um, there are some filmmakerswho come from privileged
backgrounds and they don't havethe same economic pressures,
they don't have the same accessto uh individual donors and
(10:44):
philanthropy.
So at Sundance I recognizedhow, you know, you might say how
the sausage is made.
There wasn't a totalrecognition of the systemic bias
around funding filmmakers ofcolor.
So knowing that, I tried towork within the institute to
develop more awareness aroundthat.
And of course, you know,sometimes a prestigious
(11:06):
institute, very smart, liberalpeople, they don't want to be
told that they're part of asystemic problem or that they're
discriminatory in any way.
And so there's always thisnotion around fighting behind
excellence.
We support excellent films,right?
Or if a person of color wouldcome with a film for funding,
(11:27):
sometimes the response is, oh,um, we already supported a film
about that topic, or that sortof has been told before.
And what I uh try to interceptis that story has been told
before through white eyes.
And so how do we shift theperspective?
I developed and applied uh, insome ways, a bigger thinking
(11:50):
around the systems ofdocumentaries, storytelling, and
nonfiction.
And one of the there's ananalogy that I started to apply,
and it resonated with some orother people.
Uh, and it has to do with uhastronomers first applying the
telescope.
Um, when they applied, got atelescope, they looked at a
(12:12):
celestial body, like, oh my God,there's all this detail that's
amazing.
Uh, but one of the astronomersgot the idea of what if you take
another telescope, position itsomeplace else, and focus it and
look at that same celestialbody.
And what they did is they gotthat, they got much more detail
(12:33):
and much more information.
And so I said, let's imaginethat second telescope around
these underserved filmmakerswhose stories may have been told
before by white people orstories that have not been told,
that we are going to get thatmuch more detail and nuance
around the larger nonfictionhuman experience.
(12:54):
And that's really sort of oneof the discoveries that I made
in my work at Sundance.
Rita Gonzales (13:00):
Thank you for sharing that.
Rick, this is Rita again.
Um, I love your analogies.
Yes.
It's just there's just the wayyou say things, you present it,
I can see it.
So uh thank you for that.
Rick Perez (13:14):
Well, I'm a visual thinker.
I you know, I discovered thatafter college, but it's great.
Rita Gonzales (13:19):
Now, your film, Caesar's Last Fast, was
recognized by the New York Timesas one of the 20 essential
films on the Latinx experience.
What inspired you to take onthat story?
Rick Perez (13:32):
So it's interesting.
Um in some ways it came to me,in some ways, my producer on the
film, Molly O'Brien, said thatwas kind of destined to make the
film.
Um, so there's the the moreindirect inspiration, and then
there's the more direct.
So I'll start with the indirectinspiration.
And this was it was almost arepressed memory that didn't
(13:54):
emerge until I started workingon the film.
So when I was like four or fiveyears old, I was in Head Start
in my hometown of San Fernando,California.
It's like 1969, 1970.
And um Chicano students fromCal State Northridge used to
come and volunteer at the HeadStart.
Because, of course, it was partof the social movement, the uh
war against poverty, et cetera.
(14:15):
Uh, and of course, and all thekids were little Chicano kids
and Mexican kids in my HeadStart.
And we would get this freelunch uh, you know, as part of
the program.
And so one day we're sittingdown, having this free lunch.
Uh, and part of that free lunchwas this horrific fruit
cocktail, which is bits of fruitand heavy syrup that they
(14:35):
should not be serving children,this heavy sugary syrup.
So sitting down, having thislunch, and this Chicano student,
when it comes to eating hisfruit cocktail, I noticed he
just casually starts pluckingthe grapes out of his fruit
cocktail.
And I was very curious.
I'm like, wow, what's going on?
So I was like, hey, why are youplucking the grapes out of the
(14:57):
fruit cocktail?
And he holds up with grape andhe said, well, because the
people who own the grapefields,they treat the people who pick
the grapes horribly.
They pay them very littlemoney, they make them live in
shacks, they yell at them, andwhen the people who pick the
grapes complain, they fire them.
(15:20):
It's like, for this reason, Ican't eat these grapes.
And he put them aside.
And by then, all my classmatesat the table were captivated by
the story.
And I looked down at my grapesand they suddenly became very
ugly.
And I couldn't eat them either.
So I started plucking thegrapes out of my fruit cocktail,
and the other kids startedplucking the grapes out of their
(15:42):
fruit cocktail.
And so the rest of head start,and all through elementary
school, when they would serve usthat fruit cocktail, we
wouldn't eat the grapes.
Now, we didn't know at the timethat that was part of a
national grape boycott led byCesar Chavez Dolores Huerta and
the UFW.
But we'd unknowingly becamepart of that boycott.
(16:05):
So very early on, I had thisexperience related to the work
of Cesar Chavez.
Now, fast forward many yearslater, I was working for um an
organization called Brave NewFilms.
Uh, they do a lot of politicalmedia.
The founder of the company,Robert Greenwald, had mentored
(16:25):
me and given me a lot of workand uh helped launch my career
when I was doing paid uhfilmmaking.
And he was thinking of doing uma film about Cesar Chavez.
And so we met with uh we metwith the members of the Cesar
Chavez Foundation, and Robertwanted me to be a producer on
(16:46):
the project Robert was going todirect because he knew my
background.
So we pitched them the idea,they considered it, and part of
the process of trying to make afilm on that scale is that you
want the exclusive rights tomake a film about somebody so
that there is you're not makingyou're not competing with
somebody else.
And so uh Robert was seekingexclusive rights, and then
(17:10):
ultimately the um the ChavezFoundation said, well, somebody
else has a non-exclusiveagreement, a friend of the
families, so we can't give youthat exclusivity.
So Robert dropped the projectand kind of went away.
And then um a couple weekslater, I get a phone call from I
think it was Julie Chavez, uhJulie Chavez Rodriguez.
(17:32):
And she says, Hey, Rick, I knowI know that Robert's not
pursuing the project anymorebecause the other filmmaker has
non-exclusive rights.
The other filmmaker is a friendof mine.
Are you willing to talk to herabout, you know, working on the
film or something, or giving heradvice?
Maybe she could work withRobert.
I said, sure, of course.
(17:53):
Um, so I get on the phone anduh a woman introduces herself.
She's like, hi, I'm LorenaParley.
I've been working on this filmfor 10 years.
I used to volunteer for theUFW.
I was um their publicist.
And for 10 years I've beentrying to make this film, but
I've been having trouble raisingthe money.
Um, I only have non-exclusiverights.
(18:13):
You know, do you think RobertGreenwald would help maybe
produce this project?
And by then I knew Robert hadmoved on to another project that
he hired me for.
And so I said he's he's nolonger interested.
And so uh she then said, Well,uh, are you interested in
helping me work on this project?
(18:34):
Because I could use a producerto help me.
Uh and she described what thematerial she had.
She said, I have 85 hours ofChavez-related footage.
I have a whole batch, about 16hours that had never been seen
by the public, around a fast heundertook in 1988.
I was his publicist, um, so Ihave all this material.
Are you willing to help?
(18:54):
And I thought, wow, that soundslike amazing material.
Um, so I said, Yeah, totallywilling to help.
I said, I just started a jobfor Robert Greenwald, so I'll be
available in six months.
So in six months I can helpout.
And she said, uh, Lorrainesays, Well, I need somebody to
help me now because I'm beingtreated for breast cancer and I
(19:16):
could only work on the film twoweeks out of the month.
And so I was taken aback, andI'm like, I just got into this
contract, but in six months, ifyou haven't found somebody to
help you make this film, I'llhelp you make this film, just
give me a call.
I'll work per bono or defer,however, I'll help you make this
film.
Six months later, I don't hearfrom her.
(19:37):
I'm assuming she found somebodyelse.
About nine months later, I geta phone call from this elderly
gentleman and he says, Hi, I'mLorena Parley's stepfather.
Lorena died last month ofbreast cancer.
And she left your name in hernotes for us to contact you to
see if you'd finish her film.
Do you want to finish her film?
(19:58):
And at that point, what do yousay?
And so that's how the film cameto me.
Um, and it was a whole longprocess then from that point to
actually making the film.
It was kind of, it became amission for somebody I spoke to
on the film for maybe an hourand never met in person.
Um, but someday I knew it wasdedicated to the movement.
So then um it took a year forme to then negotiate the rights
(20:24):
to use the footage with Lorena'suh stepfather and and mother,
and then to then get the rightsthat Lorena had with the Chavez
Foundation transferred to me,and I had a lawyer do that and
do that so that I got exclusiverights.
So that's how I embarked onthis project.
(20:44):
Now, when I saw the film thatLorena left behind, um, she left
a very, very rough film thatshe was editing on VHS to VHS
film.
I looked at it and realizedthat's a film I'm not sure I can
make or I can finish.
It was the type of traditionaldocumentary with a narrator and
(21:07):
what I call, and hopefully itdoesn't sound too disparaging,
but I would call it a videotextbook that was structured
chronologically from the timeshe was born to his death.
And when I started looking atthe footage, I remember popping
in a tape that said somethinglike, you know, day one.
And I pop in the tape, and thenthere's a very dramatic press
(21:30):
conference with Martin Sheen andum uh Luis Valdez and uh other
you know figures, James EdwardJames Owen's.
And it says, we're here today,the press is there, season's
gone on this fast um because ofthe use of pesticides.
We're here to draw attention tothe use of pesticides, we're
(21:52):
here to support him and toannounce Caesar's fasting.
And then I pop in the nexttape, and it's like a few days
later, and it's more dramatic.
So they're announcing we don'tknow how long Caesar's gonna
fast.
Um, it could go on indefinite.
He was then 61 years old, couldaffect his health.
And as I saw that sequence oftapes, I saw a very dramatic
(22:14):
escalating tension and conflictwith suspense around when will
Caesar end this fast?
Will it, you know, could itkill him?
You know, will his health beaffected?
So immediately I saw adifferent film structured around
Caesar's 1988 fast.
And I went back to Lorena'sfamily and I said, I see a
(22:35):
different film.
Um, I can't make the film shewas planning to make.
Will you support me making thefilm I see?
Um and so they thought about itfor a week or two and and let
me make the film that I saw.
Eduardo Archuleta (22:50):
Uh I'm Edward, and uh you're now the
director at Borderland CinematicArts.
Can you tell us a little bitmore about the studio's mission
and your vision for it?
Rick Perez (23:02):
Sure.
So Borderland Cinematic Artswas founded by two very talented
Latina and Latino filmmakers,Alex Rivera and Cristina Ivada,
who are MacArthur Fellows, alsoknown as MacArthur geniuses.
So they were offered positionsat Arizona State as uh
professors, and they acceptpositions on the condition that
(23:25):
they would be allowed to startan academic center that is
Borderland Cinematic Arts.
They were um, they accepted theposition on the condition that
they would be able to start anacademic center called
Borderlands Cinematic Arts.
Borderland Cinematic Arts is aspace where world-class
filmmakers create films anchoredin the social, political, and
(23:48):
cultural experience of theborderlands.
Um, we do that by supportingmid-career filmmakers uh telling
stories in that space.
And we also uh program publicevents around independent
filmmaking focused on theborderlands.
So, as I said, Alex andChristina founded it.
(24:09):
And after I left IDA, theyhelped me um launch it and
really sort of drive the missionand help execute the mission.
Um, so it I have to say it'sreally their vision, and I'm
there to support their vision.
Um, but what I bring to it isthe experience of having created
artist programs in my otherjobs uh to ensure that the
(24:33):
programs we launch are effectiveand and kind of meet our goals
within this this um thismission.
Mario J. Novoa (24:41):
Thank you.
This is Mario.
Uh let's dive into your latestproject, the four F's.
What inspired the documentaryand what are its core themes?
Rick Perez (24:54):
So there are two points of inspiration for the
four F's.
There's the sort of the bigger,broader idea around um around
behavior.
And so when I was in college, Itook a class in what was then
the emerging field of uhevolutionary uh sociology.
(25:14):
Or so um there was uh um therewere fields of the social
sciences that were starting toum take in and work with the
ideas presented in in evolutionand specifically human
evolution.
And so there are these youngacademics who were working at
the intersection of sociologyand and evolution in this
(25:38):
emerging field, and part of thatfield branched off into what we
now call evolutionarypsychology.
Lydia Otero (25:45):
Can you share with us a little bit more about what
the four Fs is?
Rick Perez (25:50):
So the four Fs is a short film about how primordial
behaviors express themselves inthe lives of gay men.
And it's based on a concept inevolutionary psychology that all
behavior necessary for survivaland adaptation comes down to
four expressions, and that isfighting, fleeing, feeding, and
(26:16):
sex, the four F's that's wherethe idea came from.
And I always fascinated by whatmotivates human behavior.
So, you know, I've alwayspondered that as I've gone
through the world like, why dowe do what we do on an
individual micro scale and on alarger societal scale that
creates systems of oppression orsystems of empathy and support,
(26:39):
etc.
When I worked at the IDA, um,it was a very difficult
transition to come in as theexecutive director.
There was strong opposition bysome of the senior staff there.
And what I saw was the seniorstaff retreating into a place of
(27:01):
fear, fear of change, fear ofthis whole unknown.
And it ended up becoming a verydisruptive relationship that
then led out into the largerindependent documentary field
and was written about in some ofthe trades.
(27:21):
And so ultimately, thatposition, because of this
disruption, it was not tenablefor me.
So I left the job after 18months.
And I caused to reflect onwhere was where did that
disruption come from?
And it came from the sense offear and a sense of needing to
fight.
And so I wanted to examine umthat through storytelling.
(27:46):
And um I thought, well, whydon't I focus on a specific
demographic group?
What does the four F's looklike and how do they manifest
themselves in the lives of gaymen?
Uh so Mario, as one of theproducers, and my husband Gary
Thompson, we talked to 23 someodd men to get a range of races,
(28:11):
ethnicities, and ages to seewho is comfortable talking about
how the four Fs manifest intheir life.
And so what's emerging out ofthat is uh a short documentary
called The Four F's.
And that's my latest project,but also my venture back into
filmmaking.
So the last film I made wasCaesar's Last Fast in 2014, and
(28:35):
we're on the verge of completingthe four F's.
It's it's an interesting,difficult film because unlike my
other films, which are verystory-based, like there's a
sequence of events that leadsomewhere.
This is a film that's kind ofinspired and enveloped, and
everything is connected by anidea, which is a different kind
of structure.
Lydia Otero (28:54):
I'm uh so fascinated by the four Fs.
I can see how interesting itwould be to interview all those
gay men that you mentioned.
You said like 30 of them.
Rick Perez (29:08):
So um we interviewed 30, but ultimately we cast like
15 or 13 or 15, something likethat.
Yeah.
Lydia Otero (29:16):
How did you decide who to cast?
Rick Perez (29:18):
Um, so our casting was based on uh the
participants' ability to tell usa story and their comfort level
telling us a story.
But also we wanted a range oflived experiences.
So we are very aware of uhracial and ethnic background and
age diversity.
(29:38):
And to the extent that we cancast for class background, we
also took that into um intoaccount.
And this is, of course, comingout of, although I already had a
sense of like the need for thediverse voices that I expressed,
you know, with the thetelescope analogy, but it's also
coming out of the the George.
(29:59):
Floyd and Black Lives Era,where there's this intense uh
focus and awareness, ablossoming of awareness around
the myopic lens through which wehad been hearing most
storytelling.
So, of course, we wanted tohelp dismantle that primarily
(30:20):
white middle class lens.
And it's particularly, youknow, uh a lot of gay themed
films have been told through thelens of white men.
Um, so again, we were we werevery aware of that.
So that informed uh ourdecisions on who to uh
ultimately interview, speak to.
Lydia Otero (30:38):
Great.
And so then I mean, you'retalking about these issues uh
that are so important um todifferent generations, right?
People of my generation and andcertainly of Madio's
generation.
Rick Perez (30:53):
I mean, one thing I wanted uh to embrace is
particularly male sexuality.
And the reality is that malesexuality is, we can say,
robust, and it's a complicatedsituation, particularly of men
of men of color, because oursexuality and homosexuality can
(31:15):
be a source of shame.
But of course, it's a naturalfunction and in fact a necessary
scientific function around uhwhen it comes to evolution.
Now, gay men, becausehistorically, we don't procreate
a whole nuanced interpretationon the evolutionary value of
homosexuality.
(31:36):
We can go into that in a bit,but no, not at all.
I try to approach storytellingand my thinking uh with a sense
of fearlessness and not tryingto whitewash stuff.
And that includes not trying toself-censor.
In nonfiction storytelling anduh documentary storytelling, the
(31:57):
power of it is that you canarrive at a place of knowledge
and passing along knowledge.
But if you're filtering andself-censoring or worried about
what the public would think, andthat's that's a hurdle to
trying to get at uh somefundamental truths.
(32:18):
So some people like, oh, wedon't want to show our dirty
laundry, gay men having sex orbeing, you know, what we might
call judgmentally hypersexual.
You know, no, no, men have sex,men are sexual, you know, and
they're often granted unhealthyexpressions of sexuality.
But the reality is that we aresexual beings, and I don't want
(32:44):
to um deny that.
In fact, I'm curious aboutexamining that.
Lydia Otero (32:50):
Great.
So you're the expert and hasworked in the documentary
industry.
Uh, do you think you'll facechallenges in the future
regarding its distribution?
Rick Perez (33:01):
Well, right now it's very difficult for independent
documentary to find distributionin general, because the the um
the industry has contracted.
Um, so there was a time whenduring the rise of the
streamers, when they discovered,oh my God, documentary
filmmaking is great, they wereacquiring all these independent
documentaries.
(33:21):
Caesar's Last Fast was acquiredfor three years by Netflix,
etc.
Um, and then we are gettingpaychecks and great.
Now that model, they spent toomuch money on that model.
And between spending too muchmoney and discovering, wait, we
can make our own documentariesfor cheaper.
Um, the opportunities forindependent films to get
(33:43):
acquired by the streamers justdisappeared.
Then they also discovered, oh,we know what people are
watching, how long we'rewatching, right?
Because we have the metrics onNetflix, they know when you stop
watching, they know what youwatch, they know what you watch
till the end.
And these and they recognizeoh, people want to watch mass
(34:04):
audiences that get moresubscribers, what we call
docutainment.
That is celebrity documentariesand true crime.
So that really skews and that'ssadly informing mostly what's
out there now.
So it's within that universethat we are releasing the four
F's, which on top of like beingan independent documentary, it's
(34:25):
a short film.
It's like 25 minutes.
So I have no idea what thedistribution potential is for
it.
Uh, but in some ways, I didn'tmake it for that.
I made it out of curiosity andexploration uh around how
primordial behaviors manifest inthe lives of gay men.
And what I hope to do, if thereare any funders out there
(34:49):
listening, is serialize it.
Because how do the four Fsmanifest in the lives of
lesbians, of transgender people,of fundamentalist Christians?
Um, not only in the film do weexamine the four F's, fear isn't
a four F, but fear isunderlying all the four F's.
We've very taught uh explicitlytalked about what are the
(35:12):
deepest fears of some of thepersons participating in the
film.
So we really go deep into whatare the fears of these uh
multi-generational gay men.
But also, wouldn't it becurious to see what are the
fears of lesbians, oftransgender people, of
fundamentalist Christians?
How does that inform theirbehavior, their biases, etc.?
(35:36):
How might that inform changingbehavior, self-awareness?
Lydia Otero (35:44):
Thank you, Rick.
I'm so excited about the fourFs.
I mean, I can't wait.
Eduardo Archuleta (35:49):
It's Edwardloo again.
And just wanted to bring upthat you have a history with gay
and lesbian Latinos Unidos.
Can you share what that meantfor you, both professionally and
personally, to be a part ofGlue and among the other gay and
lesbian Latina leaders andcreators?
Rick Perez (36:09):
I am blessed to have found Glue at an important part
of my life.
So um, from the Los Angelesarea, and after I went to school
outside of Boston, after Igraduated from college, I had
come out of the closet, had aboyfriend who followed me out uh
here to LA.
And I had a very strongidentity as a Chicano uh and a
(36:32):
Latino, uh, but I had anentirely different separate
identity as a gay man.
And so the gay people I knew incollege were largely white,
although I did have a very goodfriend who was from Wilmington,
who was half Chicano and halfFilipino, uh, and a lesbian from
uh from college who was fromInglewood, but it wasn't part of
a broader community.
We're part of this larger whitecommunity of gay people.
(36:56):
Ultimately, and rightly so, myboyfriend left me, and I was
alone without support andcommunity.
And I trying to remember how Ifound glue.
But I remember showing up to ameeting, and there was this
whole community of smart,beautiful Latino, les Latino
(37:20):
lesbians and gay men that, like,wow, these are my people.
It was an intersection of thatof identities that up to that
point had been separate.
So that I sort of describedmyself as second Jan Glue, um,
because I came in after thefounders, you know, had did a
lot of work.
Rita was still involved, butum, you know, at the time, uh,
(37:42):
the active members was RonGutierrez, Jose Hernandez, uh,
Valentino Sandoval, who allbecame very close friends and
inspirations.
But like many peopleexperienced in Glue, they became
my family of choice.
And they taught me how to mergemy both of my identities in a
healthy affirmative way, butcompletely enriching and
(38:05):
experience and owe thatexperience to uh to my friends
in Glue who became not onlyfriends in this movement that
were doing actual work, and ofcourse the blossoming of that
work has been a stad, but alsouh creating family in and way
before we were traditionallyaccepted by our our birth
(38:28):
families.
So I think the first gluemeeting I attended was I'm gonna
guess 90 91 or 92.
Mario J. Novoa (38:37):
This is Mario again, as a queer Latin
filmmaker, what advice do youhave for the next generation of
storytellers fromunderrepresented communities?
Rick Perez (38:48):
So I used to think that documentary filmmaking and
nonfiction filmmaking was uh anoptional luxury.
You do it if you can, if youcould afford it, etc.
What I come to believe is thatactually it's necessary.
Because it's necessary to bepart of the larger global human
(39:13):
narrative.
And unless we're creating andtelling these stories, our
stories from our point of viewwill go untold and we'll be
unseen.
And they will, you know, rightnow we're living in a period
period of erasure.
We won't even have the storiesto be erased.
So what I would tell them iswhat you're doing is a necessary
(39:34):
practice to capturing ourversion of the human experience,
which is just as valid aseverybody else's.
And so you have to do it.
Now it is very hard to do it.
As I said, making uhindependent documentaries and
making a living are twodifferent things.
And what I've learned uh on theinstitutional side when I've
(39:57):
worked at places like Sundanceand the International
Documentary Association is thatthere are more valid films
worthy of getting funding thanthere are funds available.
So the demand exceeds thesupply.
So how do you have thatpersistence to keep making a
film if you're under-resourcedor not resourced at all?
(40:19):
So there's a challenge in thatand a conundrum.
But the bottom line is it mustbe done if we are to be heard,
seen, and to capture the valuethat we give to the broader
human and lived experience.
Rita Gonzales (40:37):
What does the future hold for you?
How do people follow your work?
Rick Perez (40:43):
Wow.
So um, I have no idea what thefuture holds for me.
And I'm learning to be okaywith that.
Oh, people follow me.
You know, I'm not on socialmedia, right?
I mean, I have a coupleaccounts, I monitor them, you
know, and sort of, but I'm notactively in that dialogue.
So the best way to connect withme and my work is to watch
(41:09):
Caesar's Last Vass on Apple TVPlus.
That's the best way.
And in some ways, I think, asfar, and this is my subjective
judgment, that right now I thinkthat's the most significant
contribution I've made to thedocumentary film world and to
our community of Latinos andChicanos and Chicanos.
And that in some ways I'm justproud of that story.
(41:31):
And somebody told me, as theNew York Times recognized, and
uh somebody told me this uh thatI'd made the definitive
documentary about Cesar Chavez.
I'm like, how flattering.
That was created by a gay manat Chicano, that I got the
blessing and the luxury to to dothat and share that.
So my advice is the best way tofollow me is to watch Caesar's
(41:53):
Last Fast on Apple TV Plus.
Mario J. Novoa (41:56):
We'd like to thank our guest Rick Betis, who
was on our show today.
My name is Mario J.
Navoa.
I'm Lidiotero.
I'm Eduardo Archuleto.
Rita Gonzales (42:05):
And I'm Rita Gonzalez.
Radio Q Glue is a segment ofthe Out Agenda.
And we want to hear from you.
You can like us on our Facebookpage or email us at the
outagenda at gmail.com, or youcan visit our website on
BuzzFroute under Radio QGlue orthe Glue Archives.
(42:28):
Thanks for listening and have awonderful week.
And remember that being out isthe first step to being equal.
Now stay tuned for this wayout.
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