September 15, 2025 • 42 mins
Dr Kat "Astrokat" Ross is an astrophysics post doctoral researcher who studies teenage black holes using radio telescopes.
Dr Kat is also the leader of the national #IncludeHer movement, which aims to correct high school courses to include a more diverse representation of scientists.
A proud bisexual and agender person, Dr Astrokat was diagnosed as an adult with ADHD. She is looking to help create safe spaces and welcoming environments for other LGBTQIA+ and neurodiverse individuals in STEM.
If you would like to support Dr Astrokat's mission to bring more representation to the world of STEM, you can start by following @includeher on Bluesky or @includeher_stem on Instagram. Or, if you are eager to volunteer (or help fund) the movement, you can reach out to Dr Kat directly on Instagram, Tiktok or email.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_01 (00:13):
For centuries we've been told that women are each
other's worst enemies, but inreality we're more like otters
than queen bees.
Female otters, bitches, if youwill, join hands with each other
to create rafts that stop themfrom drifting apart and losing
each other while they areasleep.
Thriving women have one thing incommon: they have a tight-knit
circle of other women who helpthem get there by providing
information and support.
(00:35):
Join us each episode as we shinea light on an amazing woman and
give her a platform to sharewith us her story, her passion,
and the raft of bitchessupporting her.
SPEAKER_00 (00:58):
It's true.
Oh my god.
I have very nimble, very longtoes, and I got teased about
them a lot as a child becauseum, like when you're in primary
school, you aren't wearing shoesa lot of the time, like when
you're basically.
(01:21):
I also sung a song.
SPEAKER_01 (01:23):
Okay, hang on, you were singing the song while you
were peeling the banana?
SPEAKER_00 (01:26):
I did too.
I did that just as a joke, andthen I also sung a song.
All right.
I am joined here today by myco-host Ricky, and Ricky's fun
fact today, she does not have.
Are you ready for this?
A TV or a microwave or a toasteror a dryer.
Yep.
None of none of those goes wild.
(01:47):
Why?
SPEAKER_01 (01:48):
Yeah, well, I just I I have no need for these things.
I actually was on, I got a phonecall from like Telstra or Optus
or something one time where theywere like trying to sell me on
things.
And at the time I also didn'thave internet at home.
So she was like, Oh, so can Iinterest you in like a tablet?
I'm like, well, no, because Idon't have internet, so there's
no really any point.
She's like, okay, well, can Iinterest you in like Foxtel?
(02:08):
I'm like, well, no, because Idon't have a TV.
And she was like, sorry.
Sorry, I just, and you know,they they do the script.
She broke script and she waslike, sorry, can I just ask,
what do you do?
Well, I spend a lot of timereading and I just, you know,
kind of chill out, like, yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (02:28):
Well.
SPEAKER_01 (02:28):
But I have I do have the internet now.
COVID forced me because I had towork from home.
So I probably still wouldn't ifI didn't.
SPEAKER_00 (02:34):
I just can't imagine like spending that much time
with myself.
Bruce.
We are joined today by ourwonderful guest, Dr.
Kat Ross, better known as Dr.
AstroCat, who is an astrophysicsresearcher who works with radio
telescopes, baby black holes,and twinkling galaxies.
Kat has also worked extensivelyas a science communicator and
(02:56):
activist for women in STEM,including leading a national
campaign, hashtag include her,to correct high school courses
to include a more diverserepresentation of scientists.
Dr.
Kat has also appeared as a hostin the documentary A Hidden
Universe, which aired on Channel7 in 2022.
Dr.
Kat is a proud bisexual andagender person and was diagnosed
(03:17):
as an adult with ADHD.
She is looking to help createsafe spaces and welcoming
environments for other LGBTQIAplus and neurodiverse
individuals in STEM.
Welcome to the podcast, Kat.
SPEAKER_02 (03:29):
Hi, thank you so much for having me.
Um I'm still a littledistracted.
I can't fathom how you don'thave a toaster.
Yeah.
What's the snack?
SPEAKER_01 (03:35):
Do you know what?
That will both like a toaster.
Let's not even put that on thelist because it's not important.
Oh my goodness.
SPEAKER_00 (03:39):
No, I just can't imagine.
Like not having a microwave or atoaster.
SPEAKER_01 (03:42):
How do we heat things up?
I don't heat things up.
SPEAKER_00 (03:44):
Do you have like an air fryer?
SPEAKER_01 (03:46):
No.
That whole part of it's not backhere.
I just don't even know where wego from here.
There's been a lot of like funfacts about Ricky so far.
SPEAKER_00 (03:54):
Shall we jump into our icebreaker?
SPEAKER_01 (03:58):
Yes.
So so actually, we should justquickly explain.
So, probably on account of theADHD, I'm guessing, Dr.
Kat has not managed to fill outher questionnaire yet.
I actually didn't even knowthere was one.
Okay, great.
Also, apologies.
So we're choosing youricebreaker today.
Did I have a choice and I'vethrown that out the window?
(04:18):
You did, yeah.
You've lost the privilege.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (04:21):
So, Joe, what is the icebreaker?
Your friend.
Any friend.
Okay.
Is on Who Wants to Be aMillionaire.
I love that for them.
They use a lifeline to call you.
What is the question thatthey've been asked that they
know that you know the answerto?
SPEAKER_02 (04:37):
That's a tough one.
I mean, it would be anythingastrophysics related,
definitely.
I'd be coming up, which is aconcern because I'll be honest,
space is like it's pretty big.
Uh there's a lot of thingsyou've heard though about space.
Yeah.
It it is a vacuum, but alsofilled with a lot of stuff.
So there's a lot that I don'tknow about space.
(04:59):
The dangerous move.
I would think it would be thator some unbelievably obscure
random facts that they're like,I don't even know what this
question's asking.
Cat may know.
Yeah, nice.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (05:13):
I love that.
Do you have like a specific funfact about space that you just
like to tell people?
SPEAKER_02 (05:18):
Oh my god, I have so many.
Let me try and pick one.
See, okay, this is my my otherissue.
A lot of people say, like,what's your favorite thing on
space?
Your fun fact on space.
But I actually think the biggerquestion, which you will get
many more interesting answers,asking astrophysicists what
their least favorite thing is.
Because I guarantee you everyastrophysicist has a rival
(05:41):
enemy, absolute, like they'regunned for this thing.
SPEAKER_01 (05:45):
So for example, um who is what is your space
nemesis?
SPEAKER_02 (05:50):
I am really lucky.
I have several.
Oh I have many that I despisewith my entire being.
First and foremost, in my PhD, Iwas studying these twinkling
galaxies, which means you haveto kind of like look at them
multiple times over the year.
So multiple observations ofmultiple galaxies in different
colours with the same telescope.
And each like two-minute imagethat you take of this with this
(06:12):
telescope has like thousands ofgalaxies in it.
And I'm interested in like thelittle spot right in the middle.
Like that's it.
And then there's these sourcescalled the A-Team.
And they're called the A-Teambecause they're the brightest
things in the sky and they ruinyour data.
But we know which ones they are.
The the A-Team is definitely onmy hit list for sure.
But we know where they are, weknow what they're doing.
And then there was one that waslike incredibly bright and
(06:35):
wasn't just being likeautomatically subtracted like
all the other A-Team sources.
I was like, well, what is thisguy?
Who's this?
And I sent the coordinates to mysupervisor and I was like, which
one is this?
And she's like, Oh, I like mightbe 3C044.
Checked it, wrong coordinates,not the right source.
Checked the same patch of skywith the telescope, but from a
survey that was done like adecade earlier.
(06:56):
So I was like, same survey,telescope would have seen it,
done.
No, nothing there.
So I've seen this like giantthing that's popped up and it's
in multiple images at the samespot.
So like it's it's clearly athing.
And I'm like, this is reallyexciting.
It's like the biggest, brightestthing in the sky.
I'm gonna like change the gamehere.
I've found something reallycool.
(07:17):
I start messaging around all mycollaborators, my international
group of collaborators in thepublic channel that we have to
discuss these things.
And then I went to take note ofthe observation, just being
like, I'll come back to thatlater, figure out what's going
on.
Opened up the observationdetails, and lo and behold,
there's an image of what you'relooking at in the sky, and right
(07:37):
where my pesky source was wasthe sun.
SPEAKER_01 (07:42):
Oh no.
So, so what you're telling us isyou discovered the sun.
SPEAKER_02 (07:50):
I did then have to go back to all my collaborators
being like, um, it's actuallynot that interesting.
It's fine, guys.
It's fine.
I would love it if no one askedme any follow-up.
I said, Thank you so much.
Thank you.
So the sun is my biggestnemesis, first and foremost.
SPEAKER_00 (08:06):
Is there a likelihood those people are
gonna be listening to thispodcast?
SPEAKER_02 (08:10):
Well, to be fair, I mean, it's on me.
I did do a viral TikTok about itto the point that now when I go
to conferences, they're like,oh, you're the person who
discovered the sun.
I was like, I have actually donesome really cool research, also.
Um, but yes, that that is me.
Yeah, yeah.
Nice.
SPEAKER_00 (08:26):
Uh so these international researcher people
that you're talking to, are anyof them in your raft?
SPEAKER_02 (08:33):
Yeah, definitely.
Because I started my PhD and Icame from a supervisor that was
frankly a piece of shit.
Uh, not fun at all, notsupportive.
And so I moved to do this PhDand was very conscious of like,
don't ask for help, don't letanyone see that you're
struggling, like, gotta do itall yourself.
And thankfully, just likeeveryone in the group knocked
(08:53):
those those barriers down.
And now they are very much thereason that I'm able to get
stuff done, able to workindependently.
Because it turns out when youask for help and you need it,
you build the confidence in thethings that you do know how to
do.
So absolutely, the the people atwork, very supportive, and it's
always like a give and a take.
This is a raft of pictures.
(09:14):
I love this idea because it'snot, you don't have a raft for
like a single personnecessarily.
You know, the raft is foreveryone, the otters are all
holding hands to keep together.
And so it's a a give and a take.
And it's a I'll tell my story offinding the sun, and yay for me,
I guess.
But then uh literally, not likea year later, one of the PhD
students had a very similarsituation, and it turns out they
(09:36):
discovered the galaxy.
Oh so I love that for them also.
And then suddenly I promise,like, you should go talk to Kat.
I think that um, I think thatthis is gonna be really
supportive for you.
SPEAKER_01 (09:47):
Is there anyone specific in your raft that you
want to give a shout-out to?
SPEAKER_02 (09:51):
I will give a shout out to Addy, my absolute best
friend from high school, who isone of the only people I still
chat to from high school, but Ithink we can all agree.
Anyone who's known you throughthose years and then continue to
know you, she has frankly toomuch dirt on me to ever leave my
life.
Um and also my uh powerful palschats.
We consider ourselves, I wouldsay, very much a raft of
(10:14):
bitches.
We have a code word when youneed support and you're like,
okay, I don't want to go intoit, things are bad.
Can someone send me memes, cutedogs, whatever it is?
And so you just send hummus intothe chat because everyone loves
hummus and it's really great.
So a shout out to my powerfulpals and a shout out to Addie as
well.
They're definitely my raft ofbitches.
SPEAKER_01 (10:32):
I love that.
SPEAKER_00 (10:34):
I am interested to know what made you decide and
when did you decide that youwanted to be an astrophysicist?
SPEAKER_02 (10:40):
So I loved space as a kid.
We used to always go out into uhlike the street whenever the
International Space Station wentover.
I loved it, you know, seeinglike a movie in Dot, just going
over in space.
And then my mum said that likepeople live up there, and that's
like a spaceship essentiallyfloating through space.
And because I was young, thefirst thing that came to my mind
was if people are living upthere, they must also be pooping
(11:03):
up there.
Which, like, where does it go?
And so uh every Where does itgo?
I think they like dehydrate itand send it back when they get
like supply missions.
SPEAKER_01 (11:13):
Sure, sure.
SPEAKER_02 (11:13):
Yeah, I think I'm actually I have no idea.
SPEAKER_00 (11:16):
If any of our listeners have a uh an answer
for that, we're not gonna Googleit.
Yeah, you can just email it tome.
SPEAKER_02 (11:21):
My search history is dodgy enough.
I don't there's too many randomfacts I need to know.
I don't want to add that to thelist.
But to this day, my family stillgoes out and we all cover our
heads to stop from flying spacepoop.
Uh, and so like I'm I'm alwaysenjoying looking up with my
mouth closed.
And yeah, always enjoyed space.
(11:42):
And I think as I got to school,there weren't many people doing
science.
I loved science, I loved allscience, so I did it, but I
changed what area of science Iwas interested in, like 20
times.
Ultimately, I liked physics, butI was like, well, no one really
does this, like it's just empty.
I went to a science camp and Iloved it.
(12:03):
It was like the first time I'dseen that there's actually a
career as an astrophysicist.
I genuinely didn't think thatwas possible.
I started to learn about radioastronomy and like it's not just
optical, and there are jobs allaround the world.
And so that was kind of thefirst time I was like, this is
what I'm gonna do.
I love this.
And then I got to university,and it turns out lots of people
do take physics.
(12:24):
It was just that not many peoplelike me take physics.
So my class in high school wassmall because it was an
all-girls school, it was not avery scientific school, but the
lectures were packed, and it itwas an interesting shift from
I'm doing this highly specialistthing, no one's studying it, to
oh, I'm the odd one out in thisbig room of everyone.
(12:45):
And I walk in this room and alleyes will turn to me and stare
at me as I walk in.
And it's an uncomfortablefeeling for anyone, not to brag,
still happens because I'm afashion icon.
You are.
Thank you very much.
So I often get people beinglike, oh my god, the outfit, but
that's a very different feelfrom a lot of fresh out of high
school boys staring at you inclass.
(13:07):
Still to this day, if you talkto the male undergrads, if you
ask them how many girls are inyour class, they'll be like, Oh,
like five, I don't know, five,ten.
And it's all round numbers.
If you ask the girls, everysingle one of them will be like,
there's three, and these aretheir names, and these are the
ones in my class.
Because you walk in and you'relike, I see them.
I coined you immediately, I'vepicked it.
(13:28):
And like the same is true,obviously, for other minorities.
The moment you walk in, you'relike, I see you, we're giving
each other the nod, that's that.
So it was a big eye-openingmoment for me.
And then continuing the journey,it was just every step of the
way, it's kind of reiteratingthat like this isn't meant for
you, you're not meant to behere.
So I did have to remake thatchoice, that decision, like
(13:51):
several times over.
And I think the main reason Ieven lasted as long as I have is
because like space is fuckingcool, and so every time I'm
like, do I actually want to dothis?
And then yeah, I because spaceis really fucking cool.
SPEAKER_00 (14:06):
So you stay motivated, sorry not many women
in uh yeah, in general, studyingphysics.
What about teaching?
SPEAKER_02 (14:18):
As in the the lecturers and stuff that I had.
Yeah, so this is interestingbecause it sort of depends on
the uni.
And in my experience, like Iactually had quite a few
teachers who were women, but Isee now in academia, a lot of
the time the ones that are doingthe teaching are the postdocs,
the people that aren't on theongoing contract.
(14:39):
And so they're the ones that aredoing it specifically to add to
their resume to get the nextjob.
Whereas the ones that have thepermanent positions are not
necessarily doing the teaching.
Sometimes that that is the case,they'll have their regular class
that they teach.
But those people in thosepositions are either not doing
the teaching or are veryunlikely to be women.
And so the ones that we seedoing the teaching may often be
(15:01):
women, but it's the women thatare being sidetracked from their
research to do the teachingbecause in order to get the job
that men get without doingteaching, they have to have
everything.
They have to have teaching, theyhave to have supervising, they
have to have exceptionalresearch, they have to be above
and beyond in all categories.
So while I had women who werelecturers, I think a lot of the
(15:21):
time it was exactly thatscenario.
And I did have many malesupervisors, but they were all
the ones that are like, it'sprofessor, I have the steady
job.
So there was a real disconnectin who was teaching and what
they were teaching, and that'sit.
This is certainly my personalexperience.
Yeah.
I hate that.
SPEAKER_01 (15:39):
I'm not surprised by it.
Yeah.
But I hate it.
I know, it sucks.
So this I think is a good uhsegue into include her, which we
heard about briefly in theintro.
Can you tell us more about thatand how you got involved in it
and you know what the impact ofit is?
SPEAKER_02 (15:55):
So this actually all started after my honours.
I wanted to go into a PhD, but Iwas a little bit like I don't
quite know where to go, what todo.
And I actually had someone comeand say, Would you like to work
for me in physics educationresearch?
So researching how you can teachphysics.
So it was all about the actualpractices of education.
And this was when uh they wereintroducing a new physics
(16:18):
curriculum in New South Wales.
So I was hired basically to helpteach teachers this new
curriculum.
So I was painstakingly goingthrough like every single dot
point, analysing this entiredocument from end to end and
creating resources, runningworkshops, teaching the
teachers.
And it was actually a malecolleague who came up to me and
was like, Oh, did you know thatin radioactivity they don't
(16:40):
mention Marie Curie?
And I was like, I'm sorry, thatthat cannot be true.
I've spent the last year of mylife looking at this document.
Surely I would have noticed.
I hadn't, it completely slippeduh my notice.
So I went back, I looked, thereis no mention of Marie Curie in
the radioactivity section.
And so I looked at the rest ofthe curriculum because if Marie
Curie isn't mentioned, likedouble Nobel Prize Chemistry and
(17:02):
Physics coins the termradioactive, not mentioned in
radioactivity.
If she's not included, who elseis not included, but who is
included?
So I looked at the entirephysics curriculum and noticed
there are about 25 men that arementioned well over 50 times.
There are zero women that arementioned anywhere in that
curriculum.
(17:23):
So I took to Twitter at thetime, did a big rant on Twitter
of just there's no women thatare mentioned here.
And it's not like there aren'twomen to mention, there are
plenty.
And in fact, there are plentythat relate specifically to the
content that's already beingincluded, that's already there.
And it went pretty viral, somuch so that New South Wales
(17:44):
Education actually saw it uh andresponded, which is super
exciting.
I was like, finally, we can getsome changes because I had
actually worked on some changeson the curriculum already.
Turns out they absolutely areall for making those changes
when the maths is wrong.
But their response to this uhissue was Marie Curie is
mentioned, but she's mentionedin chemistry, not physics.
(18:06):
Also, we mentioned RosalindFranklin in biology and they
misspelled Rosalind Franklin'sname.
So, like that's not a greatstart.
And if your justification forexcluding Marie Curie from
physics is don't worry, she's inchemistry.
Well, what about all the peoplethat take physics and not
chemistry?
That that doesn't solve thatproblem.
Uh, and how you're just going toignore all the other women that
(18:28):
I've mentioned in this thread,that should also be included.
So I decided if theirjustification was that it's okay
because we mentioned womenelsewhere and it's just physics
that's a problem.
You had better bloody hope thatthat's the case.
So I decided to review everysingle curriculum that got to
year 11 and you tell studentsnever make an ADHD person angry
(18:49):
on a moral issue because I willhyperfocus and do everything of
my power.
So I read like hundreds of pagesof documents and I went through
looking at who was mentioned,how they were mentioned, and
where they were mentioned.
And it turns out across all ofthe curricula in New South
Wales.
So this is physics, chemistry,biology, environmental science,
extension science, like all ofthem.
(19:12):
It turns out there are about 80men that are mentioned, and
they're like mentioned well overa hundred times, and there are
four women.
Mari Curie is mentioned.
She's mentioned in uh extensionscience, I think it is.
She is an optional dot point,and she shares it with Henry
Beckerel.
Extension science is not one ofthe major subjects, so most
students won't even take it.
(19:32):
On top of that, optional dotpoint.
It's up to the teachers tochoose that dot point to teach.
So, not great.
She's also not in chemistry,like they claimed.
That was a lie.
The other women uh that arementioned, there's Barbara
McClintock, who won a NobelPrize for her work in genetics.
She's also in one of theextension subjects.
And then the other two womenthat are mentioned Edna Krebapel
(19:54):
and Maggie Simpson.
I'm sorry.
The cartoon characters.
SPEAKER_01 (19:57):
Those famous scientists.
Lisa, not even Lisa.
Maggie's a baby.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Okay.
SPEAKER_00 (20:06):
Um, I'm so mad right now.
I have already heard thisbefore, and I'm still mad.
I think this is new.
I don't know.
SPEAKER_02 (20:13):
So you've heard this before.
As many cartoon characters aswomen in STEM in New South
Wales.
Yeah.
And that's still happening, orit's changing, but bureaucracy
is a very slow process.
Of course.
So this was back in 2018, andthen obviously COVID hit.
And so the focus was very muchto support teachers through
virtual learning.
And that is absolutely fairenough.
(20:35):
But it doesn't mean that thatwork stops while we focus on
adjusting online learning aswell.
So Includer really was born fromthat moment of just sheer
indignation and anger and furyof there is something that is so
clearly wrong in the way we'representing science to students.
And it's such an easy fix.
I do not think that this isgoing to solve sexism.
(20:57):
We're not going to just be like,oh, women in STEM, we don't need
to worry about that anymore.
It's not a problem.
It's a band-aid on a stab wound.
But it's also a hundred percentjust credit where credit is due
and recognition for work thatwas done.
Because I also analyzed what isincluded and who is getting
credit for what.
So if you look at the content,if men make the discovery or if
(21:18):
men are the ones that have putthe work in, then it says look
at so-and-so's work on XYZ.
And if it's work that women havedone, it's just look at XYZ.
There's no mention, it's justkind of spontaneous knowledge.
So even just by accrediting thework that's already included in
the content, you're not actuallychanging any of the content.
You're just adding the name ofthe person who did that work.
(21:39):
You can increase therepresentation to like over 30%
without even that much work.
So the way we're teaching it,the way we present it is
fundamentally flawed.
But there's also a quick, easysolution before we even consider
science education as a whole andwhat the purpose of science
education is.
So it's just, it makes me so madthat we would even delay
something that you could justlet's slap that on and deal with
(22:00):
the rest later.
And here we are.
SPEAKER_01 (22:02):
Yeah.
And thus include her.
Yes, very good.
Can you tell us a bit about likehow Include Her kind of worked
or you know?
SPEAKER_02 (22:11):
So I have COVID to take for this, actually, because
during COVID, obviouslyeveryone's in lockdown, there's
no traveling around, butuniversities still needed to
have people come to give theirweekly colloquium, etc.
So thankfully, I actually gotinvited to give virtual talks at
Monash University, specificallythe women in physics group at
Monash.
And I talked about include herbasically this discovery because
(22:32):
someone had seen this Twitterrant that I went on.
And then people in that groupwere like, this is actually,
it's such a simple thing.
It's so obviously wrong.
We should be doing this talk forall of physics.
We should do a bigger talk forthis.
And then I started just doing atalk essentially just all up the
east coast of Australiavirtually, which I would never
have been able to do pre-COVID.
I would not have been able to dothat travel.
(22:53):
Also, like this was not my PhDresearch.
I'm a PhD researcher at thispoint.
I can't justify taking all thattime off to talk about very much
not my PhD research.
But in all of those talks,enough people were like, I care
about this.
I want, I want in, I want tohelp.
And so we kind of grouped agroup of volunteers of let's
work on changing this andreached out to curriculum
(23:14):
developers in various states tobe like, here's where you sit
and how you can change that.
And we're willing to work withyou to implement those changes.
So Includer has grownsignificantly.
We're actually internationalnow, baby.
Yeah.
Uh, but now we also have a teamin the UK.
They're doing the same analysisthat we've done in Australia.
Uh, so we're growing.
We're a team of about 20 peopleacross the world.
(23:36):
We ended up doing a full reviewof all courses across Australia.
So not just New South Wales, butwe looked at, you know, the big
four bio, physics, chem, andenvironmental science for all
states and territories inAustralia, just to see like, is
this just an issue from NewSouth Wales or where does
everyone else stand?
It's not just New South Wales.
Wow, you are really insightful.
(23:57):
That's amazing.
Huge assumption to make andabsolutely correct.
So across all of Australia,there are 145 scientists that
are mentioned.
One of them is a woman.
What?
Just one.
Do you want to take a guess atwho?
Is it Marie Curie?
No, it's not.
SPEAKER_01 (24:18):
It is not Marie Curie.
The main one if you ask theanyone to name a female
scientist.
SPEAKER_02 (24:24):
Yeah.
That's the one.
She's the like the equivalentEinstein, you know?
Like that she's on that level.
And no, she's not included.
Oh my god, who?
So uh it's Rosalind Franklin.
Oh.
Also a banger.
Correct.
Also a banger, it is correct.
She's not in New South Wales,but she is mentioned in
Queensland, a Northern Territoryin South Australia.
So it's not even all states thatmention her.
Yeah, sure.
(24:45):
But also Rosalind Franklin islargely only ever taught in the
context of men stealing herwork.
Yes.
So it's still a narrative ofmale scientists.
Yeah.
You're not actually learningabout the incredible science
that she did, you're learningabout the men who won the Nobel
Prize from stealing her science.
So it's still a it's still notan encouraging story for a young
woman in STEM.
(25:05):
You're looking at this future inthis point where you're trying
to decide whether you want topursue science.
And that's the onlyrepresentation you get, unless
you are lucky enough to have ateacher who is an expert in the
field to put in the energy andtime to do extra research and
add that into the classroom,which what teacher has that
time?
They're underfunded and have notime on their hands.
(25:26):
So it's a mess.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So we published this paper tobasically show everyone where we
stand.
It is published.
It's published on the AustralianJournal of Education.
So it's free access.
Everyone can read it.
It's quite dense if you're notinto academic papers.
It might be a bit dry.
Although I did appreciate thatit's it was nice to put like a
(25:48):
feminist rant in science format.
Like it was really, really nice.
It felt like taking this thingthat was traditionally masculine
and all of this institution thatwas fundamentally designed to
keep someone like me out inevery possible way, to make me
not survive, not thrive,absolutely not be able to do
anything.
And to take that and thenpublish feminism with it.
(26:11):
It was a really nice, nicecircle moment.
I really enjoyed it.
Yeah.
We've now been working withcurriculum developers across
Australia, including theAustralian curriculum.
Um, and Queensland has actuallyalready implemented these
changes, and we're hoping topublish the results of that, the
uptake from the teachers and theresponse of the students to that
as well.
Good work, Queensland.
Thanks, Queensland.
SPEAKER_01 (26:32):
Have you seen any kind of changes in your field of
people coming through, you know,not necessarily to do with the
school curriculum, but is therelike a kind of a shift in, you
know, you're seeing more womencome through or more girls come
through to do first year physicsat uni and that kind of stuff?
Or is it, would you say it'sstill pretty much where it was
(26:53):
when you were?
SPEAKER_02 (26:54):
I think actually I'm starting to see the opposite.
I think we're starting to gobackwards.
I physics and particularlyastronomy, astronomy is actually
quite well represented forphysics fields, but physics as a
whole is already so low, likethe numbers of women that are
taking it up.
And I think it was a very maybeslow increase.
(27:16):
And I think we've just kind ofstagnated.
And part of that is also thelack of women progressing.
We don't see women that aregetting those ongoing positions,
we don't see that like continualappointment.
And that's because those jobsare very hard to get, but there
is also so much bias in thathiring process.
There's attempts at the momentto have a different approach to
hiring to try and address that.
(27:38):
But none of these approaches bythemselves will solve this
issue.
They'll all help and they're allnecessary, but none of them
individually will fix thisissue.
And so I think even if we havemore women enrolling in the
undergrad courses, I very rarelysee them actually progress the
entire way through.
There's usually only the one ortwo that that make it all the
(27:58):
way through.
And that's because we're notnecessarily creating a space.
We can bring them in, but ifit's not safe there, they're
going to leave.
Rightly so.
I find this definitely, again,it's anecdotal from me, but I
notice in academia you findlittle bubbles.
There's usually these spaceswhere a woman has created a
group of students, postdocs, andif they have a secure position,
(28:22):
this bubble is a secure spot.
And that woman, knowing theenvironment, knowing what is
going on, creates this kind ofsafe haven.
So you see these regions wherethere are departments that
report higher than normal levelsof women, and it's because they
support those individual, Iwould say, pillars.
Little baby rafts.
And they hold those pillars up,they hold that team together.
(28:44):
And then if you're lucky enoughand they they have an ongoing
position enough, those bubblesstart to join.
And you see overall the growthinto the rest of the whole
community, into the rest of thatorganization.
So these little rafts areessential because I genuinely
don't think I would have gottento where I am without those
rafts, without having otherwomen in STEM that you know
(29:05):
those issues.
I can come to you, I can explainthis.
I don't have to say, you know,my professor did XYZ and then
have people go, well, you shouldreport him, because yes, you
should, but it is a lot morecomplicated than that.
And so the raft is incrediblyimportant.
I actually, I almost left myhonors entirely.
I had a very sexist supervisorat the time, and I was really
(29:26):
struggling.
So it was the last two weeks orso of my honors, and I still
didn't have results.
I'm still trying to write thisup.
I've also got exams going on.
It was one of the most intenseyears of academia for me.
And it was one of my friends inthis powerful pals group.
It was her birthday, and theywere all going to the pub and
they were like, come, you know,join us for the pub.
We haven't seen you in basicallya year.
(29:47):
And I was like, I'd love to, butI'm working on my honors thesis,
you know, day in, day out.
I don't have the time.
And I it got to about like 6 or7 p.m.
I'm obviously still in theoffice, nodding away at this
thing.
And then the results came backfrom the simulation I was
running and it had failed.
And I just sat there being like,I actually can't do this.
I'm gonna go and see.
(30:07):
I'm gonna tear up even thinkingabout it.
I love them so much.
unknown (30:12):
I'll have some water.
SPEAKER_02 (30:13):
Yeah.
So I rock up uh at the pub.
They're all sitting there, soexcited just that I'd even come
because I'd obviously alreadytold them, I'm not coming, I
have thesis to work on.
And I got there, and I the wholebus ride over, I was like, I'm
not going to bring anything up.
I'm not gonna raise anything.
This is her birthday.
I'm just here to see my friendsand just have a night off.
(30:34):
I sit down, and the first thingthey say is like, How are you?
And I just sat there and waslike, and then immediately burst
into tears, just full sobbing,terrible, and all of them.
No like prompting needed, pickedup the dog, the dog they had
(30:54):
with them, and they were like,dog on the lap.
Here's the drink.
Yep.
Yes, here's a margarita, we'llput that in front of you, we'll
get the tissues and just kisseseverywhere.
So I spent I spent the rest ofthe evening like covered in
lipstick kisses, cuddling a dog,and it was just this moment of
(31:18):
like honors is hard, science ishard, but the raft of bitches.
Yeah, that's what you need.
They get you through it, andit's I I genuinely wouldn't have
made it through without them.
Love you guys.
SPEAKER_00 (31:34):
Damn it, what a shattering.
I think that um one of myfavorite things about you is
your email signature.
Oh, thank you.
Um, and specifically, I'm gonnaread out the sign.
Oh, yeah.
This is not specifically fromyour email, but I just noticed
you've got it in your contactform section as well.
unknown (31:54):
Right.
SPEAKER_00 (31:55):
And it says, please note, I have ADHD and can often
forget to reply to an email.
If you're waiting for a responseor it's important or time
critical, please let me know orsend a reminder email.
SPEAKER_02 (32:06):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (32:06):
And honestly, giving people permission to hound you
is so good.
SPEAKER_02 (32:13):
This has been like of post-diagnosis things I've
done to advocate for myself,that email signature has been
the biggest removal of guilt andsaving time ever.
Because now, all like I wasgonna get those reminder emails
everywhere, because I'm gonnaforget inevitably.
So I was always gonna get them,but people would send them after
(32:35):
the due date because they didn'twant to feel like they were
pestering me.
Yes.
She'll get to it when she getsto it, she's busy, whatever.
So they wait till it's late andthen say, I still haven't heard
from you, just like a reminder,checking in.
At which point then I'm like,fuck.
So then I'm frantically doing itin a rush, way faster than I
should do it.
So it's not good quality.
(32:55):
I also feel guilty, the shame oflike being so late and getting
to the point where they had toremind me.
But now that I have this in mysignature, people will message
me far in advance and say, Hey,I'm still waiting for this.
At which point I figure it's nowimpacting enough for them.
Like they do actually want itthere.
So it's this is now enough of anurgency that the ADHD is like,
(33:19):
we can do this.
Yes, uh, but it's not so urgentthat you're like, I cannot
believe I've left this till it'stoo late.
I forgot about it, everything.
Genuinely one of the best thingsI've added in my life.
SPEAKER_01 (33:31):
So you obviously you are very open about having ADHD,
but presumably that has also hadan effect on, you know, being
able to have such high academicachievement and all of that kind
of stuff.
How has that presented for youin your journey?
SPEAKER_02 (33:46):
I think so.
There's a few different waysit's influenced my life, both
good and bad, realistically.
Firstly, I think there isdefinitely still the stigma
around ADHD, unfortunately.
I was I was a textbook case, gotkicked out of maths, but like
because I was doing wellacademically, it was never
flagged as an issue.
So uh this is the classic, yeah.
(34:06):
The annoying thing for me aboutADHD, particularly for AFAB
people and people that don't fitin that very narrow young white
boy in class distractingeveryone, it means that unless
you are a nuisance to others,you don't get diagnosed.
So it means you internalizeeverything, it means that you
learn to mask all of it, and itbecomes you're the problem, not
(34:29):
ADHD is a problem.
So, in some senses, I started toperform significantly better
when I had this diagnosisbecause I could start to work
with my brain, not against it.
But there is definitely stillthat stigma.
And I find it hilariously ironicbecause I don't know if you've
ever met a physicist.
(34:51):
I've actually got one sittingacross from me right now.
So 100% of your sample isneurodivergent.
Um, it's pretty common inphysics.
There is a lot ofneurodivergence there.
But I think that that also comesfrom like there's embedded
ableism in just the perceptionof it's a learning disability
and therefore bad things.
It's a bad, bad thing.
(35:11):
When actually there are manyways that the ADHD helps me, the
creativity, the piecing thingstogether in the big dots are one
of the favorite things aboutacademia for me in research of
just having this big pictureview of everything and then
getting to see how thatconnects.
And it's views that in myexperience, neurotypicals really
struggled to have.
They have their kind of siloedperceptions and they find it
(35:34):
hard to make those links.
But then writing details aboutit.
No, thank you.
I've done the fun part and Iwould like to leave.
So it is unfortunate that it'sstill uh an industry and it's
still an institution where youhave to be doing all of those
things.
So I can't finish my project andpresent at a conference and mark
(35:54):
that as done.
You still need to write yourpaper and complete that paper
and review that paper.
And I personally, my first draftis my final draft.
I will not reread something Ihave written because the
dopamine is gone.
It is out of there.
I'm not interested anymore.
So, in some ways, it has beenvery difficult, but at least the
self-compassion has increasedsignificantly post-diagnosis.
(36:18):
And it has meant, I think, thatthe people that I work with are
more understanding because I'mopen about it.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (36:26):
So I have two questions.
SPEAKER_02 (36:29):
Okay.
SPEAKER_00 (36:30):
The first question is what's next for Include Her?
SPEAKER_02 (36:33):
Oh my gosh, this is actually a really exciting
answer.
So we have built um an IncludeHer workshop.
This workshop is designed formostly students, but also
teachers, community members,everyone.
It's basically to provideparticipants with the skills to
be able to break down anarrative of science.
And what's a narrative you'rebeing told, what's missing from
(36:54):
that narrative, but also why amI being told the narrative I'm
being told?
We start with no priorknowledge, and we just say, what
are the big moments in whateverfield we're working in?
So what are the big moments inastronomy?
What are the big moments in techor coding?
And we just get students tobuild that word cloud together.
And then one by one, we gothrough those and say, well, why
do we think this is a bigmoment?
What's the nor the story withthis, the narrative with this?
(37:16):
Who was involved, or who are thebig people?
And you see a lot of the time,obviously, you know, we
mentioned this for astronomy,and people are like, Galileo is
the big thing, and the moon isamazing.
And there's very rarely womenthat come up.
And so we break that down.
Why are we not learning ofwomen?
And why do we have theperception?
So it's important, obviously, tobreak down those narratives, but
it's also about teaching theparticipants to be able to see
(37:39):
those narratives beyond justthis workshop.
So in the classroom, in theirschools, in their conversations
with friends, and try andpractice breaking that down to
help change the stereotypes thatwe have, the narratives that we
hold.
Uh, we're also building anencyclopedia of women.
So these are women that areeasily implemented into the
curriculum.
They're ones that can easily fitin what you're already teaching.
(37:59):
And we're developing our websitefor that.
It's currently got about 400women and is ever growing.
It's one of our biggestprojects.
We were also doing the sameanalysis that we've done in
Australia, but on the UK systemas well.
So they have a slightlydifferent approach, but we now
have UK researchers that aredoing that work.
So hopefully that paper will bepublished by the end of the
year.
But who knows?
(38:20):
Because peer review process is alot.
And as we've established, I hatewriting papers.
SPEAKER_00 (38:25):
There's a lot of things in the works.
That coincidentally brings me tomy next question.
Oh my goodness.
How can we help you with that?
unknown (38:33):
Oh, yay!
SPEAKER_02 (38:34):
So uh we're always looking for volunteers.
If you're interested, we'rereally gonna need people to run
those workshops also.
And we need people who areinterested in receiving those
workshops.
And if you know businesses,grants, government funding,
anything, we're really lookingto start providing the payment
for this to be able to actuallybuild up as well.
(38:56):
So we're looking for funding.
If you're a business and you'relike, I want to support women in
STEM, but I don't want to doanything, you can just write me
a check and forget about it.
SPEAKER_00 (39:05):
So easy.
I love that.
That's actually the best askthat we've ever had on a
podcast, I think.
SPEAKER_01 (39:12):
Give me money.
She understands that people aretime poor.
SPEAKER_02 (39:17):
Yes.
So we'll do that work for you.
Don't you worry.
Yeah.
Just give us the money and we'llbe fine.
Love it.
Yeah.
Also, please follow us on socialmedia and everything as well.
All the usual.
So we're include her stem onBlue Sky and Instagram.
SPEAKER_01 (39:32):
So we heard a little bit about your raft before.
Who else do you need in yourraft?
Who are you missing that wouldbe able to help you deliver on
your mission or in the includeher mission?
SPEAKER_02 (39:42):
Yeah.
So honestly, we need we needeveryone.
We need all skills because thisis currently entirely run by
people who are just passionatebut working elsewhere.
So if you have any skills in ITfor helping us to code up a lot
of things, if you work ineducation resources, If you're a
teacher who can implement thesechanges straight away in the
(40:04):
classroom, like we want we wantyou to be a part of this, we
want you to to help us.
All of the resources we're doingare hopefully designed for
teachers to just grab and usestraight away.
But that does mean that we needto get them to the teachers in
some way.
So any of those ways to to helpus.
And it it means that we can allfocus on the bits that we're
good at, which is the researchand the development of these
(40:25):
things when we're working withteams that are already
distributing the stuff to thepeople that need it the most.
SPEAKER_00 (40:31):
And how can we use our raft to help you?
So if we're not one of thosepeople, is there particular
things we should be listeningout for?
SPEAKER_02 (40:39):
I think taking that time to hear the narratives and
like notice the moments whenpeople are spinning that
narrative that is perhapsmissing some things or is an old
narrative of what a scientistis.
Because as much as you know, welove our rafts, we love the
support, people have thisinternalized as well.
I mean, I wasn't even the onethat noticed Mary Curie was
(40:59):
missing, and now this is led toinclude her, but like that is
someone in my raft who whohelped make that happen.
So listening out in your raft tohelp support people, but also
listening out for the momentswhen they need that support to
make sure that your raft isstrong and sustainable.
SPEAKER_01 (41:16):
Oh, I love that.
Unfortunately, once again, weare utterly out of time.
unknown (41:24):
That was great.
SPEAKER_00 (41:26):
That's right.
But if you have a story to shareabout being a woman in STEM, or
you know exactly what happens tospace poo, we'd love to hear
from you.
And where can people reach us?
We are on Instagram at RaftPodcast, or you can email hello
at raftpodcast.com.
SPEAKER_01 (41:43):
And for previous episodes or to find out more,
don't forget to check out ourwebsite, raftpodcast.com.
SPEAKER_00 (41:49):
Thanks for listening, Rafters.
Catch you next time.
SPEAKER_02 (42:17):
He should have been.
Thank you.
For centuries we've been told that women are each
other's worst enemies, but inreality we're more like otters
than queen bees.
Female otters, bitches, if youwill, join hands with each other
to create rafts that stop themfrom drifting apart and losing
each other while they areasleep.
Thriving women have one thing incommon: they have a tight-knit
circle of other women who helpthem get there by providing
information and support.
(00:35):
Join us each episode as we shinea light on an amazing woman and
give her a platform to sharewith us her story, her passion,
and the raft of bitchessupporting her.
SPEAKER_00 (00:58):
It's true.
Oh my god.
I have very nimble, very longtoes, and I got teased about
them a lot as a child becauseum, like when you're in primary
school, you aren't wearing shoesa lot of the time, like when
you're basically.
(01:21):
I also sung a song.
SPEAKER_01 (01:23):
Okay, hang on, you were singing the song while you
were peeling the banana?
SPEAKER_00 (01:26):
I did too.
I did that just as a joke, andthen I also sung a song.
All right.
I am joined here today by myco-host Ricky, and Ricky's fun
fact today, she does not have.
Are you ready for this?
A TV or a microwave or a toasteror a dryer.
Yep.
None of none of those goes wild.
(01:47):
Why?
SPEAKER_01 (01:48):
Yeah, well, I just I I have no need for these things.
I actually was on, I got a phonecall from like Telstra or Optus
or something one time where theywere like trying to sell me on
things.
And at the time I also didn'thave internet at home.
So she was like, Oh, so can Iinterest you in like a tablet?
I'm like, well, no, because Idon't have internet, so there's
no really any point.
She's like, okay, well, can Iinterest you in like Foxtel?
(02:08):
I'm like, well, no, because Idon't have a TV.
And she was like, sorry.
Sorry, I just, and you know,they they do the script.
She broke script and she waslike, sorry, can I just ask,
what do you do?
Well, I spend a lot of timereading and I just, you know,
kind of chill out, like, yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (02:28):
Well.
SPEAKER_01 (02:28):
But I have I do have the internet now.
COVID forced me because I had towork from home.
So I probably still wouldn't ifI didn't.
SPEAKER_00 (02:34):
I just can't imagine like spending that much time
with myself.
Bruce.
We are joined today by ourwonderful guest, Dr.
Kat Ross, better known as Dr.
AstroCat, who is an astrophysicsresearcher who works with radio
telescopes, baby black holes,and twinkling galaxies.
Kat has also worked extensivelyas a science communicator and
(02:56):
activist for women in STEM,including leading a national
campaign, hashtag include her,to correct high school courses
to include a more diverserepresentation of scientists.
Dr.
Kat has also appeared as a hostin the documentary A Hidden
Universe, which aired on Channel7 in 2022.
Dr.
Kat is a proud bisexual andagender person and was diagnosed
(03:17):
as an adult with ADHD.
She is looking to help createsafe spaces and welcoming
environments for other LGBTQIAplus and neurodiverse
individuals in STEM.
Welcome to the podcast, Kat.
SPEAKER_02 (03:29):
Hi, thank you so much for having me.
Um I'm still a littledistracted.
I can't fathom how you don'thave a toaster.
Yeah.
What's the snack?
SPEAKER_01 (03:35):
Do you know what?
That will both like a toaster.
Let's not even put that on thelist because it's not important.
Oh my goodness.
SPEAKER_00 (03:39):
No, I just can't imagine.
Like not having a microwave or atoaster.
SPEAKER_01 (03:42):
How do we heat things up?
I don't heat things up.
SPEAKER_00 (03:44):
Do you have like an air fryer?
SPEAKER_01 (03:46):
No.
That whole part of it's not backhere.
I just don't even know where wego from here.
There's been a lot of like funfacts about Ricky so far.
SPEAKER_00 (03:54):
Shall we jump into our icebreaker?
SPEAKER_01 (03:58):
Yes.
So so actually, we should justquickly explain.
So, probably on account of theADHD, I'm guessing, Dr.
Kat has not managed to fill outher questionnaire yet.
I actually didn't even knowthere was one.
Okay, great.
Also, apologies.
So we're choosing youricebreaker today.
Did I have a choice and I'vethrown that out the window?
(04:18):
You did, yeah.
You've lost the privilege.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (04:21):
So, Joe, what is the icebreaker?
Your friend.
Any friend.
Okay.
Is on Who Wants to Be aMillionaire.
I love that for them.
They use a lifeline to call you.
What is the question thatthey've been asked that they
know that you know the answerto?
SPEAKER_02 (04:37):
That's a tough one.
I mean, it would be anythingastrophysics related,
definitely.
I'd be coming up, which is aconcern because I'll be honest,
space is like it's pretty big.
Uh there's a lot of thingsyou've heard though about space.
Yeah.
It it is a vacuum, but alsofilled with a lot of stuff.
So there's a lot that I don'tknow about space.
(04:59):
The dangerous move.
I would think it would be thator some unbelievably obscure
random facts that they're like,I don't even know what this
question's asking.
Cat may know.
Yeah, nice.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (05:13):
I love that.
Do you have like a specific funfact about space that you just
like to tell people?
SPEAKER_02 (05:18):
Oh my god, I have so many.
Let me try and pick one.
See, okay, this is my my otherissue.
A lot of people say, like,what's your favorite thing on
space?
Your fun fact on space.
But I actually think the biggerquestion, which you will get
many more interesting answers,asking astrophysicists what
their least favorite thing is.
Because I guarantee you everyastrophysicist has a rival
(05:41):
enemy, absolute, like they'regunned for this thing.
SPEAKER_01 (05:45):
So for example, um who is what is your space
nemesis?
SPEAKER_02 (05:50):
I am really lucky.
I have several.
Oh I have many that I despisewith my entire being.
First and foremost, in my PhD, Iwas studying these twinkling
galaxies, which means you haveto kind of like look at them
multiple times over the year.
So multiple observations ofmultiple galaxies in different
colours with the same telescope.
And each like two-minute imagethat you take of this with this
(06:12):
telescope has like thousands ofgalaxies in it.
And I'm interested in like thelittle spot right in the middle.
Like that's it.
And then there's these sourcescalled the A-Team.
And they're called the A-Teambecause they're the brightest
things in the sky and they ruinyour data.
But we know which ones they are.
The the A-Team is definitely onmy hit list for sure.
But we know where they are, weknow what they're doing.
And then there was one that waslike incredibly bright and
(06:35):
wasn't just being likeautomatically subtracted like
all the other A-Team sources.
I was like, well, what is thisguy?
Who's this?
And I sent the coordinates to mysupervisor and I was like, which
one is this?
And she's like, Oh, I like mightbe 3C044.
Checked it, wrong coordinates,not the right source.
Checked the same patch of skywith the telescope, but from a
survey that was done like adecade earlier.
(06:56):
So I was like, same survey,telescope would have seen it,
done.
No, nothing there.
So I've seen this like giantthing that's popped up and it's
in multiple images at the samespot.
So like it's it's clearly athing.
And I'm like, this is reallyexciting.
It's like the biggest, brightestthing in the sky.
I'm gonna like change the gamehere.
I've found something reallycool.
(07:17):
I start messaging around all mycollaborators, my international
group of collaborators in thepublic channel that we have to
discuss these things.
And then I went to take note ofthe observation, just being
like, I'll come back to thatlater, figure out what's going
on.
Opened up the observationdetails, and lo and behold,
there's an image of what you'relooking at in the sky, and right
(07:37):
where my pesky source was wasthe sun.
SPEAKER_01 (07:42):
Oh no.
So, so what you're telling us isyou discovered the sun.
SPEAKER_02 (07:50):
I did then have to go back to all my collaborators
being like, um, it's actuallynot that interesting.
It's fine, guys.
It's fine.
I would love it if no one askedme any follow-up.
I said, Thank you so much.
Thank you.
So the sun is my biggestnemesis, first and foremost.
SPEAKER_00 (08:06):
Is there a likelihood those people are
gonna be listening to thispodcast?
SPEAKER_02 (08:10):
Well, to be fair, I mean, it's on me.
I did do a viral TikTok about itto the point that now when I go
to conferences, they're like,oh, you're the person who
discovered the sun.
I was like, I have actually donesome really cool research, also.
Um, but yes, that that is me.
Yeah, yeah.
Nice.
SPEAKER_00 (08:26):
Uh so these international researcher people
that you're talking to, are anyof them in your raft?
SPEAKER_02 (08:33):
Yeah, definitely.
Because I started my PhD and Icame from a supervisor that was
frankly a piece of shit.
Uh, not fun at all, notsupportive.
And so I moved to do this PhDand was very conscious of like,
don't ask for help, don't letanyone see that you're
struggling, like, gotta do itall yourself.
And thankfully, just likeeveryone in the group knocked
(08:53):
those those barriers down.
And now they are very much thereason that I'm able to get
stuff done, able to workindependently.
Because it turns out when youask for help and you need it,
you build the confidence in thethings that you do know how to
do.
So absolutely, the the people atwork, very supportive, and it's
always like a give and a take.
This is a raft of pictures.
(09:14):
I love this idea because it'snot, you don't have a raft for
like a single personnecessarily.
You know, the raft is foreveryone, the otters are all
holding hands to keep together.
And so it's a a give and a take.
And it's a I'll tell my story offinding the sun, and yay for me,
I guess.
But then uh literally, not likea year later, one of the PhD
students had a very similarsituation, and it turns out they
(09:36):
discovered the galaxy.
Oh so I love that for them also.
And then suddenly I promise,like, you should go talk to Kat.
I think that um, I think thatthis is gonna be really
supportive for you.
SPEAKER_01 (09:47):
Is there anyone specific in your raft that you
want to give a shout-out to?
SPEAKER_02 (09:51):
I will give a shout out to Addy, my absolute best
friend from high school, who isone of the only people I still
chat to from high school, but Ithink we can all agree.
Anyone who's known you throughthose years and then continue to
know you, she has frankly toomuch dirt on me to ever leave my
life.
Um and also my uh powerful palschats.
We consider ourselves, I wouldsay, very much a raft of
(10:14):
bitches.
We have a code word when youneed support and you're like,
okay, I don't want to go intoit, things are bad.
Can someone send me memes, cutedogs, whatever it is?
And so you just send hummus intothe chat because everyone loves
hummus and it's really great.
So a shout out to my powerfulpals and a shout out to Addie as
well.
They're definitely my raft ofbitches.
SPEAKER_01 (10:32):
I love that.
SPEAKER_00 (10:34):
I am interested to know what made you decide and
when did you decide that youwanted to be an astrophysicist?
SPEAKER_02 (10:40):
So I loved space as a kid.
We used to always go out into uhlike the street whenever the
International Space Station wentover.
I loved it, you know, seeinglike a movie in Dot, just going
over in space.
And then my mum said that likepeople live up there, and that's
like a spaceship essentiallyfloating through space.
And because I was young, thefirst thing that came to my mind
was if people are living upthere, they must also be pooping
(11:03):
up there.
Which, like, where does it go?
And so uh every Where does itgo?
I think they like dehydrate itand send it back when they get
like supply missions.
SPEAKER_01 (11:13):
Sure, sure.
SPEAKER_02 (11:13):
Yeah, I think I'm actually I have no idea.
SPEAKER_00 (11:16):
If any of our listeners have a uh an answer
for that, we're not gonna Googleit.
Yeah, you can just email it tome.
SPEAKER_02 (11:21):
My search history is dodgy enough.
I don't there's too many randomfacts I need to know.
I don't want to add that to thelist.
But to this day, my family stillgoes out and we all cover our
heads to stop from flying spacepoop.
Uh, and so like I'm I'm alwaysenjoying looking up with my
mouth closed.
And yeah, always enjoyed space.
(11:42):
And I think as I got to school,there weren't many people doing
science.
I loved science, I loved allscience, so I did it, but I
changed what area of science Iwas interested in, like 20
times.
Ultimately, I liked physics, butI was like, well, no one really
does this, like it's just empty.
I went to a science camp and Iloved it.
(12:03):
It was like the first time I'dseen that there's actually a
career as an astrophysicist.
I genuinely didn't think thatwas possible.
I started to learn about radioastronomy and like it's not just
optical, and there are jobs allaround the world.
And so that was kind of thefirst time I was like, this is
what I'm gonna do.
I love this.
And then I got to university,and it turns out lots of people
do take physics.
(12:24):
It was just that not many peoplelike me take physics.
So my class in high school wassmall because it was an
all-girls school, it was not avery scientific school, but the
lectures were packed, and it itwas an interesting shift from
I'm doing this highly specialistthing, no one's studying it, to
oh, I'm the odd one out in thisbig room of everyone.
(12:45):
And I walk in this room and alleyes will turn to me and stare
at me as I walk in.
And it's an uncomfortablefeeling for anyone, not to brag,
still happens because I'm afashion icon.
You are.
Thank you very much.
So I often get people beinglike, oh my god, the outfit, but
that's a very different feelfrom a lot of fresh out of high
school boys staring at you inclass.
(13:07):
Still to this day, if you talkto the male undergrads, if you
ask them how many girls are inyour class, they'll be like, Oh,
like five, I don't know, five,ten.
And it's all round numbers.
If you ask the girls, everysingle one of them will be like,
there's three, and these aretheir names, and these are the
ones in my class.
Because you walk in and you'relike, I see them.
I coined you immediately, I'vepicked it.
(13:28):
And like the same is true,obviously, for other minorities.
The moment you walk in, you'relike, I see you, we're giving
each other the nod, that's that.
So it was a big eye-openingmoment for me.
And then continuing the journey,it was just every step of the
way, it's kind of reiteratingthat like this isn't meant for
you, you're not meant to behere.
So I did have to remake thatchoice, that decision, like
(13:51):
several times over.
And I think the main reason Ieven lasted as long as I have is
because like space is fuckingcool, and so every time I'm
like, do I actually want to dothis?
And then yeah, I because spaceis really fucking cool.
SPEAKER_00 (14:06):
So you stay motivated, sorry not many women
in uh yeah, in general, studyingphysics.
What about teaching?
SPEAKER_02 (14:18):
As in the the lecturers and stuff that I had.
Yeah, so this is interestingbecause it sort of depends on
the uni.
And in my experience, like Iactually had quite a few
teachers who were women, but Isee now in academia, a lot of
the time the ones that are doingthe teaching are the postdocs,
the people that aren't on theongoing contract.
(14:39):
And so they're the ones that aredoing it specifically to add to
their resume to get the nextjob.
Whereas the ones that have thepermanent positions are not
necessarily doing the teaching.
Sometimes that that is the case,they'll have their regular class
that they teach.
But those people in thosepositions are either not doing
the teaching or are veryunlikely to be women.
And so the ones that we seedoing the teaching may often be
(15:01):
women, but it's the women thatare being sidetracked from their
research to do the teachingbecause in order to get the job
that men get without doingteaching, they have to have
everything.
They have to have teaching, theyhave to have supervising, they
have to have exceptionalresearch, they have to be above
and beyond in all categories.
So while I had women who werelecturers, I think a lot of the
(15:21):
time it was exactly thatscenario.
And I did have many malesupervisors, but they were all
the ones that are like, it'sprofessor, I have the steady
job.
So there was a real disconnectin who was teaching and what
they were teaching, and that'sit.
This is certainly my personalexperience.
Yeah.
I hate that.
SPEAKER_01 (15:39):
I'm not surprised by it.
Yeah.
But I hate it.
I know, it sucks.
So this I think is a good uhsegue into include her, which we
heard about briefly in theintro.
Can you tell us more about thatand how you got involved in it
and you know what the impact ofit is?
SPEAKER_02 (15:55):
So this actually all started after my honours.
I wanted to go into a PhD, but Iwas a little bit like I don't
quite know where to go, what todo.
And I actually had someone comeand say, Would you like to work
for me in physics educationresearch?
So researching how you can teachphysics.
So it was all about the actualpractices of education.
And this was when uh they wereintroducing a new physics
(16:18):
curriculum in New South Wales.
So I was hired basically to helpteach teachers this new
curriculum.
So I was painstakingly goingthrough like every single dot
point, analysing this entiredocument from end to end and
creating resources, runningworkshops, teaching the
teachers.
And it was actually a malecolleague who came up to me and
was like, Oh, did you know thatin radioactivity they don't
(16:40):
mention Marie Curie?
And I was like, I'm sorry, thatthat cannot be true.
I've spent the last year of mylife looking at this document.
Surely I would have noticed.
I hadn't, it completely slippeduh my notice.
So I went back, I looked, thereis no mention of Marie Curie in
the radioactivity section.
And so I looked at the rest ofthe curriculum because if Marie
Curie isn't mentioned, likedouble Nobel Prize Chemistry and
(17:02):
Physics coins the termradioactive, not mentioned in
radioactivity.
If she's not included, who elseis not included, but who is
included?
So I looked at the entirephysics curriculum and noticed
there are about 25 men that arementioned well over 50 times.
There are zero women that arementioned anywhere in that
curriculum.
(17:23):
So I took to Twitter at thetime, did a big rant on Twitter
of just there's no women thatare mentioned here.
And it's not like there aren'twomen to mention, there are
plenty.
And in fact, there are plentythat relate specifically to the
content that's already beingincluded, that's already there.
And it went pretty viral, somuch so that New South Wales
(17:44):
Education actually saw it uh andresponded, which is super
exciting.
I was like, finally, we can getsome changes because I had
actually worked on some changeson the curriculum already.
Turns out they absolutely areall for making those changes
when the maths is wrong.
But their response to this uhissue was Marie Curie is
mentioned, but she's mentionedin chemistry, not physics.
(18:06):
Also, we mentioned RosalindFranklin in biology and they
misspelled Rosalind Franklin'sname.
So, like that's not a greatstart.
And if your justification forexcluding Marie Curie from
physics is don't worry, she's inchemistry.
Well, what about all the peoplethat take physics and not
chemistry?
That that doesn't solve thatproblem.
Uh, and how you're just going toignore all the other women that
(18:28):
I've mentioned in this thread,that should also be included.
So I decided if theirjustification was that it's okay
because we mentioned womenelsewhere and it's just physics
that's a problem.
You had better bloody hope thatthat's the case.
So I decided to review everysingle curriculum that got to
year 11 and you tell studentsnever make an ADHD person angry
(18:49):
on a moral issue because I willhyperfocus and do everything of
my power.
So I read like hundreds of pagesof documents and I went through
looking at who was mentioned,how they were mentioned, and
where they were mentioned.
And it turns out across all ofthe curricula in New South
Wales.
So this is physics, chemistry,biology, environmental science,
extension science, like all ofthem.
(19:12):
It turns out there are about 80men that are mentioned, and
they're like mentioned well overa hundred times, and there are
four women.
Mari Curie is mentioned.
She's mentioned in uh extensionscience, I think it is.
She is an optional dot point,and she shares it with Henry
Beckerel.
Extension science is not one ofthe major subjects, so most
students won't even take it.
(19:32):
On top of that, optional dotpoint.
It's up to the teachers tochoose that dot point to teach.
So, not great.
She's also not in chemistry,like they claimed.
That was a lie.
The other women uh that arementioned, there's Barbara
McClintock, who won a NobelPrize for her work in genetics.
She's also in one of theextension subjects.
And then the other two womenthat are mentioned Edna Krebapel
(19:54):
and Maggie Simpson.
I'm sorry.
The cartoon characters.
SPEAKER_01 (19:57):
Those famous scientists.
Lisa, not even Lisa.
Maggie's a baby.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Okay.
SPEAKER_00 (20:06):
Um, I'm so mad right now.
I have already heard thisbefore, and I'm still mad.
I think this is new.
I don't know.
SPEAKER_02 (20:13):
So you've heard this before.
As many cartoon characters aswomen in STEM in New South
Wales.
Yeah.
And that's still happening, orit's changing, but bureaucracy
is a very slow process.
Of course.
So this was back in 2018, andthen obviously COVID hit.
And so the focus was very muchto support teachers through
virtual learning.
And that is absolutely fairenough.
(20:35):
But it doesn't mean that thatwork stops while we focus on
adjusting online learning aswell.
So Includer really was born fromthat moment of just sheer
indignation and anger and furyof there is something that is so
clearly wrong in the way we'representing science to students.
And it's such an easy fix.
I do not think that this isgoing to solve sexism.
(20:57):
We're not going to just be like,oh, women in STEM, we don't need
to worry about that anymore.
It's not a problem.
It's a band-aid on a stab wound.
But it's also a hundred percentjust credit where credit is due
and recognition for work thatwas done.
Because I also analyzed what isincluded and who is getting
credit for what.
So if you look at the content,if men make the discovery or if
(21:18):
men are the ones that have putthe work in, then it says look
at so-and-so's work on XYZ.
And if it's work that women havedone, it's just look at XYZ.
There's no mention, it's justkind of spontaneous knowledge.
So even just by accrediting thework that's already included in
the content, you're not actuallychanging any of the content.
You're just adding the name ofthe person who did that work.
(21:39):
You can increase therepresentation to like over 30%
without even that much work.
So the way we're teaching it,the way we present it is
fundamentally flawed.
But there's also a quick, easysolution before we even consider
science education as a whole andwhat the purpose of science
education is.
So it's just, it makes me so madthat we would even delay
something that you could justlet's slap that on and deal with
(22:00):
the rest later.
And here we are.
SPEAKER_01 (22:02):
Yeah.
And thus include her.
Yes, very good.
Can you tell us a bit about likehow Include Her kind of worked
or you know?
SPEAKER_02 (22:11):
So I have COVID to take for this, actually, because
during COVID, obviouslyeveryone's in lockdown, there's
no traveling around, butuniversities still needed to
have people come to give theirweekly colloquium, etc.
So thankfully, I actually gotinvited to give virtual talks at
Monash University, specificallythe women in physics group at
Monash.
And I talked about include herbasically this discovery because
(22:32):
someone had seen this Twitterrant that I went on.
And then people in that groupwere like, this is actually,
it's such a simple thing.
It's so obviously wrong.
We should be doing this talk forall of physics.
We should do a bigger talk forthis.
And then I started just doing atalk essentially just all up the
east coast of Australiavirtually, which I would never
have been able to do pre-COVID.
I would not have been able to dothat travel.
(22:53):
Also, like this was not my PhDresearch.
I'm a PhD researcher at thispoint.
I can't justify taking all thattime off to talk about very much
not my PhD research.
But in all of those talks,enough people were like, I care
about this.
I want, I want in, I want tohelp.
And so we kind of grouped agroup of volunteers of let's
work on changing this andreached out to curriculum
(23:14):
developers in various states tobe like, here's where you sit
and how you can change that.
And we're willing to work withyou to implement those changes.
So Includer has grownsignificantly.
We're actually internationalnow, baby.
Yeah.
Uh, but now we also have a teamin the UK.
They're doing the same analysisthat we've done in Australia.
Uh, so we're growing.
We're a team of about 20 peopleacross the world.
(23:36):
We ended up doing a full reviewof all courses across Australia.
So not just New South Wales, butwe looked at, you know, the big
four bio, physics, chem, andenvironmental science for all
states and territories inAustralia, just to see like, is
this just an issue from NewSouth Wales or where does
everyone else stand?
It's not just New South Wales.
Wow, you are really insightful.
(23:57):
That's amazing.
Huge assumption to make andabsolutely correct.
So across all of Australia,there are 145 scientists that
are mentioned.
One of them is a woman.
What?
Just one.
Do you want to take a guess atwho?
Is it Marie Curie?
No, it's not.
SPEAKER_01 (24:18):
It is not Marie Curie.
The main one if you ask theanyone to name a female
scientist.
SPEAKER_02 (24:24):
Yeah.
That's the one.
She's the like the equivalentEinstein, you know?
Like that she's on that level.
And no, she's not included.
Oh my god, who?
So uh it's Rosalind Franklin.
Oh.
Also a banger.
Correct.
Also a banger, it is correct.
She's not in New South Wales,but she is mentioned in
Queensland, a Northern Territoryin South Australia.
So it's not even all states thatmention her.
Yeah, sure.
(24:45):
But also Rosalind Franklin islargely only ever taught in the
context of men stealing herwork.
Yes.
So it's still a narrative ofmale scientists.
Yeah.
You're not actually learningabout the incredible science
that she did, you're learningabout the men who won the Nobel
Prize from stealing her science.
So it's still a it's still notan encouraging story for a young
woman in STEM.
(25:05):
You're looking at this future inthis point where you're trying
to decide whether you want topursue science.
And that's the onlyrepresentation you get, unless
you are lucky enough to have ateacher who is an expert in the
field to put in the energy andtime to do extra research and
add that into the classroom,which what teacher has that
time?
They're underfunded and have notime on their hands.
(25:26):
So it's a mess.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So we published this paper tobasically show everyone where we
stand.
It is published.
It's published on the AustralianJournal of Education.
So it's free access.
Everyone can read it.
It's quite dense if you're notinto academic papers.
It might be a bit dry.
Although I did appreciate thatit's it was nice to put like a
(25:48):
feminist rant in science format.
Like it was really, really nice.
It felt like taking this thingthat was traditionally masculine
and all of this institution thatwas fundamentally designed to
keep someone like me out inevery possible way, to make me
not survive, not thrive,absolutely not be able to do
anything.
And to take that and thenpublish feminism with it.
(26:11):
It was a really nice, nicecircle moment.
I really enjoyed it.
Yeah.
We've now been working withcurriculum developers across
Australia, including theAustralian curriculum.
Um, and Queensland has actuallyalready implemented these
changes, and we're hoping topublish the results of that, the
uptake from the teachers and theresponse of the students to that
as well.
Good work, Queensland.
Thanks, Queensland.
SPEAKER_01 (26:32):
Have you seen any kind of changes in your field of
people coming through, you know,not necessarily to do with the
school curriculum, but is therelike a kind of a shift in, you
know, you're seeing more womencome through or more girls come
through to do first year physicsat uni and that kind of stuff?
Or is it, would you say it'sstill pretty much where it was
(26:53):
when you were?
SPEAKER_02 (26:54):
I think actually I'm starting to see the opposite.
I think we're starting to gobackwards.
I physics and particularlyastronomy, astronomy is actually
quite well represented forphysics fields, but physics as a
whole is already so low, likethe numbers of women that are
taking it up.
And I think it was a very maybeslow increase.
(27:16):
And I think we've just kind ofstagnated.
And part of that is also thelack of women progressing.
We don't see women that aregetting those ongoing positions,
we don't see that like continualappointment.
And that's because those jobsare very hard to get, but there
is also so much bias in thathiring process.
There's attempts at the momentto have a different approach to
hiring to try and address that.
(27:38):
But none of these approaches bythemselves will solve this
issue.
They'll all help and they're allnecessary, but none of them
individually will fix thisissue.
And so I think even if we havemore women enrolling in the
undergrad courses, I very rarelysee them actually progress the
entire way through.
There's usually only the one ortwo that that make it all the
(27:58):
way through.
And that's because we're notnecessarily creating a space.
We can bring them in, but ifit's not safe there, they're
going to leave.
Rightly so.
I find this definitely, again,it's anecdotal from me, but I
notice in academia you findlittle bubbles.
There's usually these spaceswhere a woman has created a
group of students, postdocs, andif they have a secure position,
(28:22):
this bubble is a secure spot.
And that woman, knowing theenvironment, knowing what is
going on, creates this kind ofsafe haven.
So you see these regions wherethere are departments that
report higher than normal levelsof women, and it's because they
support those individual, Iwould say, pillars.
Little baby rafts.
And they hold those pillars up,they hold that team together.
(28:44):
And then if you're lucky enoughand they they have an ongoing
position enough, those bubblesstart to join.
And you see overall the growthinto the rest of the whole
community, into the rest of thatorganization.
So these little rafts areessential because I genuinely
don't think I would have gottento where I am without those
rafts, without having otherwomen in STEM that you know
(29:05):
those issues.
I can come to you, I can explainthis.
I don't have to say, you know,my professor did XYZ and then
have people go, well, you shouldreport him, because yes, you
should, but it is a lot morecomplicated than that.
And so the raft is incrediblyimportant.
I actually, I almost left myhonors entirely.
I had a very sexist supervisorat the time, and I was really
(29:26):
struggling.
So it was the last two weeks orso of my honors, and I still
didn't have results.
I'm still trying to write thisup.
I've also got exams going on.
It was one of the most intenseyears of academia for me.
And it was one of my friends inthis powerful pals group.
It was her birthday, and theywere all going to the pub and
they were like, come, you know,join us for the pub.
We haven't seen you in basicallya year.
(29:47):
And I was like, I'd love to, butI'm working on my honors thesis,
you know, day in, day out.
I don't have the time.
And I it got to about like 6 or7 p.m.
I'm obviously still in theoffice, nodding away at this
thing.
And then the results came backfrom the simulation I was
running and it had failed.
And I just sat there being like,I actually can't do this.
I'm gonna go and see.
(30:07):
I'm gonna tear up even thinkingabout it.
I love them so much.
unknown (30:12):
I'll have some water.
SPEAKER_02 (30:13):
Yeah.
So I rock up uh at the pub.
They're all sitting there, soexcited just that I'd even come
because I'd obviously alreadytold them, I'm not coming, I
have thesis to work on.
And I got there, and I the wholebus ride over, I was like, I'm
not going to bring anything up.
I'm not gonna raise anything.
This is her birthday.
I'm just here to see my friendsand just have a night off.
(30:34):
I sit down, and the first thingthey say is like, How are you?
And I just sat there and waslike, and then immediately burst
into tears, just full sobbing,terrible, and all of them.
No like prompting needed, pickedup the dog, the dog they had
(30:54):
with them, and they were like,dog on the lap.
Here's the drink.
Yep.
Yes, here's a margarita, we'llput that in front of you, we'll
get the tissues and just kisseseverywhere.
So I spent I spent the rest ofthe evening like covered in
lipstick kisses, cuddling a dog,and it was just this moment of
(31:18):
like honors is hard, science ishard, but the raft of bitches.
Yeah, that's what you need.
They get you through it, andit's I I genuinely wouldn't have
made it through without them.
Love you guys.
SPEAKER_00 (31:34):
Damn it, what a shattering.
I think that um one of myfavorite things about you is
your email signature.
Oh, thank you.
Um, and specifically, I'm gonnaread out the sign.
Oh, yeah.
This is not specifically fromyour email, but I just noticed
you've got it in your contactform section as well.
unknown (31:54):
Right.
SPEAKER_00 (31:55):
And it says, please note, I have ADHD and can often
forget to reply to an email.
If you're waiting for a responseor it's important or time
critical, please let me know orsend a reminder email.
SPEAKER_02 (32:06):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (32:06):
And honestly, giving people permission to hound you
is so good.
SPEAKER_02 (32:13):
This has been like of post-diagnosis things I've
done to advocate for myself,that email signature has been
the biggest removal of guilt andsaving time ever.
Because now, all like I wasgonna get those reminder emails
everywhere, because I'm gonnaforget inevitably.
So I was always gonna get them,but people would send them after
(32:35):
the due date because they didn'twant to feel like they were
pestering me.
Yes.
She'll get to it when she getsto it, she's busy, whatever.
So they wait till it's late andthen say, I still haven't heard
from you, just like a reminder,checking in.
At which point then I'm like,fuck.
So then I'm frantically doing itin a rush, way faster than I
should do it.
So it's not good quality.
(32:55):
I also feel guilty, the shame oflike being so late and getting
to the point where they had toremind me.
But now that I have this in mysignature, people will message
me far in advance and say, Hey,I'm still waiting for this.
At which point I figure it's nowimpacting enough for them.
Like they do actually want itthere.
So it's this is now enough of anurgency that the ADHD is like,
(33:19):
we can do this.
Yes, uh, but it's not so urgentthat you're like, I cannot
believe I've left this till it'stoo late.
I forgot about it, everything.
Genuinely one of the best thingsI've added in my life.
SPEAKER_01 (33:31):
So you obviously you are very open about having ADHD,
but presumably that has also hadan effect on, you know, being
able to have such high academicachievement and all of that kind
of stuff.
How has that presented for youin your journey?
SPEAKER_02 (33:46):
I think so.
There's a few different waysit's influenced my life, both
good and bad, realistically.
Firstly, I think there isdefinitely still the stigma
around ADHD, unfortunately.
I was I was a textbook case, gotkicked out of maths, but like
because I was doing wellacademically, it was never
flagged as an issue.
So uh this is the classic, yeah.
(34:06):
The annoying thing for me aboutADHD, particularly for AFAB
people and people that don't fitin that very narrow young white
boy in class distractingeveryone, it means that unless
you are a nuisance to others,you don't get diagnosed.
So it means you internalizeeverything, it means that you
learn to mask all of it, and itbecomes you're the problem, not
(34:29):
ADHD is a problem.
So, in some senses, I started toperform significantly better
when I had this diagnosisbecause I could start to work
with my brain, not against it.
But there is definitely stillthat stigma.
And I find it hilariously ironicbecause I don't know if you've
ever met a physicist.
(34:51):
I've actually got one sittingacross from me right now.
So 100% of your sample isneurodivergent.
Um, it's pretty common inphysics.
There is a lot ofneurodivergence there.
But I think that that also comesfrom like there's embedded
ableism in just the perceptionof it's a learning disability
and therefore bad things.
It's a bad, bad thing.
(35:11):
When actually there are manyways that the ADHD helps me, the
creativity, the piecing thingstogether in the big dots are one
of the favorite things aboutacademia for me in research of
just having this big pictureview of everything and then
getting to see how thatconnects.
And it's views that in myexperience, neurotypicals really
struggled to have.
They have their kind of siloedperceptions and they find it
(35:34):
hard to make those links.
But then writing details aboutit.
No, thank you.
I've done the fun part and Iwould like to leave.
So it is unfortunate that it'sstill uh an industry and it's
still an institution where youhave to be doing all of those
things.
So I can't finish my project andpresent at a conference and mark
(35:54):
that as done.
You still need to write yourpaper and complete that paper
and review that paper.
And I personally, my first draftis my final draft.
I will not reread something Ihave written because the
dopamine is gone.
It is out of there.
I'm not interested anymore.
So, in some ways, it has beenvery difficult, but at least the
self-compassion has increasedsignificantly post-diagnosis.
(36:18):
And it has meant, I think, thatthe people that I work with are
more understanding because I'mopen about it.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (36:26):
So I have two questions.
SPEAKER_02 (36:29):
Okay.
SPEAKER_00 (36:30):
The first question is what's next for Include Her?
SPEAKER_02 (36:33):
Oh my gosh, this is actually a really exciting
answer.
So we have built um an IncludeHer workshop.
This workshop is designed formostly students, but also
teachers, community members,everyone.
It's basically to provideparticipants with the skills to
be able to break down anarrative of science.
And what's a narrative you'rebeing told, what's missing from
(36:54):
that narrative, but also why amI being told the narrative I'm
being told?
We start with no priorknowledge, and we just say, what
are the big moments in whateverfield we're working in?
So what are the big moments inastronomy?
What are the big moments in techor coding?
And we just get students tobuild that word cloud together.
And then one by one, we gothrough those and say, well, why
do we think this is a bigmoment?
What's the nor the story withthis, the narrative with this?
(37:16):
Who was involved, or who are thebig people?
And you see a lot of the time,obviously, you know, we
mentioned this for astronomy,and people are like, Galileo is
the big thing, and the moon isamazing.
And there's very rarely womenthat come up.
And so we break that down.
Why are we not learning ofwomen?
And why do we have theperception?
So it's important, obviously, tobreak down those narratives, but
it's also about teaching theparticipants to be able to see
(37:39):
those narratives beyond justthis workshop.
So in the classroom, in theirschools, in their conversations
with friends, and try andpractice breaking that down to
help change the stereotypes thatwe have, the narratives that we
hold.
Uh, we're also building anencyclopedia of women.
So these are women that areeasily implemented into the
curriculum.
They're ones that can easily fitin what you're already teaching.
(37:59):
And we're developing our websitefor that.
It's currently got about 400women and is ever growing.
It's one of our biggestprojects.
We were also doing the sameanalysis that we've done in
Australia, but on the UK systemas well.
So they have a slightlydifferent approach, but we now
have UK researchers that aredoing that work.
So hopefully that paper will bepublished by the end of the
year.
But who knows?
(38:20):
Because peer review process is alot.
And as we've established, I hatewriting papers.
SPEAKER_00 (38:25):
There's a lot of things in the works.
That coincidentally brings me tomy next question.
Oh my goodness.
How can we help you with that?
unknown (38:33):
Oh, yay!
SPEAKER_02 (38:34):
So uh we're always looking for volunteers.
If you're interested, we'rereally gonna need people to run
those workshops also.
And we need people who areinterested in receiving those
workshops.
And if you know businesses,grants, government funding,
anything, we're really lookingto start providing the payment
for this to be able to actuallybuild up as well.
(38:56):
So we're looking for funding.
If you're a business and you'relike, I want to support women in
STEM, but I don't want to doanything, you can just write me
a check and forget about it.
SPEAKER_00 (39:05):
So easy.
I love that.
That's actually the best askthat we've ever had on a
podcast, I think.
SPEAKER_01 (39:12):
Give me money.
She understands that people aretime poor.
SPEAKER_02 (39:17):
Yes.
So we'll do that work for you.
Don't you worry.
Yeah.
Just give us the money and we'llbe fine.
Love it.
Yeah.
Also, please follow us on socialmedia and everything as well.
All the usual.
So we're include her stem onBlue Sky and Instagram.
SPEAKER_01 (39:32):
So we heard a little bit about your raft before.
Who else do you need in yourraft?
Who are you missing that wouldbe able to help you deliver on
your mission or in the includeher mission?
SPEAKER_02 (39:42):
Yeah.
So honestly, we need we needeveryone.
We need all skills because thisis currently entirely run by
people who are just passionatebut working elsewhere.
So if you have any skills in ITfor helping us to code up a lot
of things, if you work ineducation resources, If you're a
teacher who can implement thesechanges straight away in the
(40:04):
classroom, like we want we wantyou to be a part of this, we
want you to to help us.
All of the resources we're doingare hopefully designed for
teachers to just grab and usestraight away.
But that does mean that we needto get them to the teachers in
some way.
So any of those ways to to helpus.
And it it means that we can allfocus on the bits that we're
good at, which is the researchand the development of these
(40:25):
things when we're working withteams that are already
distributing the stuff to thepeople that need it the most.
SPEAKER_00 (40:31):
And how can we use our raft to help you?
So if we're not one of thosepeople, is there particular
things we should be listeningout for?
SPEAKER_02 (40:39):
I think taking that time to hear the narratives and
like notice the moments whenpeople are spinning that
narrative that is perhapsmissing some things or is an old
narrative of what a scientistis.
Because as much as you know, welove our rafts, we love the
support, people have thisinternalized as well.
I mean, I wasn't even the onethat noticed Mary Curie was
(40:59):
missing, and now this is led toinclude her, but like that is
someone in my raft who whohelped make that happen.
So listening out in your raft tohelp support people, but also
listening out for the momentswhen they need that support to
make sure that your raft isstrong and sustainable.
SPEAKER_01 (41:16):
Oh, I love that.
Unfortunately, once again, weare utterly out of time.
unknown (41:24):
That was great.
SPEAKER_00 (41:26):
That's right.
But if you have a story to shareabout being a woman in STEM, or
you know exactly what happens tospace poo, we'd love to hear
from you.
And where can people reach us?
We are on Instagram at RaftPodcast, or you can email hello
at raftpodcast.com.
SPEAKER_01 (41:43):
And for previous episodes or to find out more,
don't forget to check out ourwebsite, raftpodcast.com.
SPEAKER_00 (41:49):
Thanks for listening, Rafters.
Catch you next time.
SPEAKER_02 (42:17):
He should have been.
Thank you.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
The Joe Rogan Experience
The official podcast of comedian Joe Rogan.
Two Guys, Five Rings: Matt, Bowen & The Olympics
Two Guys (Bowen Yang and Matt Rogers). Five Rings (you know, from the Olympics logo). One essential podcast for the 2026 Milan-Cortina Winter Olympics. Bowen Yang (SNL, Wicked) and Matt Rogers (Palm Royale, No Good Deed) of Las Culturistas are back for a second season of Two Guys, Five Rings, a collaboration with NBC Sports and iHeartRadio. In this 15-episode event, Bowen and Matt discuss the top storylines, obsess over Italian culture, and find out what really goes on in the Olympic Village.