November 4, 2024 • 42 mins
This episode touches on some difficult topics including eating disorders and suicide. If you or someone you know is struggling with difficult conversations or mental health, please check out the resources below.
Dr. Katherine is a motivational speaker on the benefits of self-respect. She works with organisations who want leaders that bring 100% of themselves to work and never say leave saying ‘coulda, shoulda, woulda’. She is also a board member, a former tech CEO and multiple scholarship winner. Despite these successes, she hid an eating disorder, severe depression, and suicidal thoughts. Her personal journey drives her to inspire others to find inner peace and overcome self-destructive tendencies.
Dr Katherine needs help spreading her message, so if you or someone you know is looking for a kick-ass keynote for your next event, why not check out her availability here!
----- Resources ------
Lifeline Australia
Providing all Australians experiencing a personal crisis with access to 24-hour crisis support.
24/7 Crisis Support Line - 13 11 14
Website for resources or text chat - www.lifeline.org.au/
Butterfly Foundation
For anyone in Australia impacted by eating disorders and body image issues, as well as the families, friends and communities who support them.
National Helpline - 1800 33 4673
Website for resources or text chat - butterfly.org.au/
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Kate Kirwin (00:00):
Hi Rafters, before this episode begins, we just
wanted to share a contentwarning with you.
This episode touches on somedifficult topics, including
eating disorders and suicide.
If any of that is triggeringfor you, catch us back up in the
next episode.
Otherwise, it really is a greatchat and we hope you'll get a
lot out of the episode.
As usual, this episode containsadult language and concepts.
Unknown (00:29):
Music
Jo Minney (00:36):
For centuries, women have been taught that we are
each other's worst enemies.
But in our experience, womenare more like otters than queen
bees.
Female otters, bitches, if youwill, join hands with each other
to create rafts that stop themfrom drifting apart and losing
each other while they're asleep.
Just like a literal raft ofbitches, our experience has been
(00:58):
that thriving women often havea tight-knit circle of other
women who helped them get thereby providing information and
support along the way and makingsure that we all stay afloat.
Kate Kirwin (01:10):
Welcome to another episode of the Rafter Bitches
podcast.
So I'm Kate and I'm here withmy co-host today, Jo Minney.
And a fun fact about Jo is thather entire wardrobe is either
pink, orange or purple.
And we affectionately refer toit as Jo coloured.
Jo Minney (01:25):
It's true.
I'm wearing purple today andI'm here with my co-host Kate
Kirwin.
And a fun fact about Kate, sheis currently wearing sparkly
boots and owns three otherdifferent pairs of
sparkly boots.
Kate Kirwin (01:42):
I am wearing sparkly shoes, Jo.
I'm wearing them today becauseour guest is a self-confessed
shoe addict.
So I'm wearing them in herhonour.
Our guest for today's episodeis Dr.
Katherine Iscoe.
Katherine is a motivationalspeaker on the benefits of
self-respect She works withorganizations who want leaders
that bring 100% of themselves towork and never leave saying
(02:04):
shoulda, coulda, woulda.
She's also a board member, aformer tech CEO and a multiple
scholarship winner.
Despite all of these successes,she hid an eating disorder,
fear, depression and suicidalthoughts.
Her personal journey drives herto inspire others to find inner
peace and overcomeself-destructive tendencies.
Dr.
(02:25):
Katherine, welcome to thepodcast.
Jo Minney (02:27):
So So great to see you all again.
Awesome.
We are looking forward togetting into the discussion.
We've got lots to cover today,exploring people pleasing,
perfectionism, self-respect,burnout, but we would like to do
a bit of an icebreaker first toget to know you.
You've suggested your ownicebreaker.
If you could have dinner withsomeone from any timeline, who
(02:48):
would it be?
So who would it be?
I'm curious to know.
Katherine Iscoe (02:51):
My great-grandmother.
So she's no longer with us,but...
I've been told that I'm herreincarnated.
She had what we say a lot ofchutzpah.
So it means like just likeveering between confidence and
hubris.
There's a great story, which Iwill do a truncated version.
So she was a Jew.
This was in 1938 in Bratislava,which was formerly communist
(03:14):
regime.
Obviously, this is when Hitlerwas trying to cleanse Europe of
its quote unquote, dirty people,homosexuals, Jews, etc.
And so she heard a knock at thedoor.
She opened the door and therewas two grown men with rifles
pointing them right at her.
Her son was out of theapartment at the time, but her
daughter was there.
She was 12 years old.
(03:35):
She fainted.
And my great-grandmother, whois my size, so barely 5'1", had
to make a decision.
She said, do I just follow themand let them obviously take me
to my eventual death andprobably my daughter's death, or
do I do something?
So she took the two grown menwith rifles over to the balcony,
so they were in a penthouse,and she said, you can either
(03:58):
throw us off or you could shootus right here, but we're not
going with you.
And the story goes, the twogrown men were so scared of my
great-grandmother that theyactually left, and she ended up
escaping.
And the rest of the story islong and complex, but...
That is my great-grandmother toa T, and there's so many
(04:18):
lessons, so many lessons that Iwould have loved just to have
one more conversation with her,just to extract a bit more out
of her.
Kate Kirwin (04:28):
That's so cute.
I love that.
I literally have chills.
I can feel the hair standing upon my arm listening to you.
I can see your goosebumps.
Katherine Iscoe (04:37):
She was quite a woman, quite a woman.
Kate Kirwin (04:40):
And I think you can feel a lot of the tenacity and
perseverance and drive throughthat story and through your own
story as well, which I'm superexcited to hear a little bit
more about today.
I'd love to know who'sin your raft.
Katherine Iscoe (04:52):
Oh gosh, definitely my dad.
My dad is my best friend.
He's probably the reason whyI'm here today, which I'm sure
we'll get into.
There is an amount ofindescribable love that I have
for him that is just, I'm solucky, so lucky to have him.
My partner, who's my completeopposite, we, I don't know if
(05:14):
swearing is okay.
Well, I mean, it's called theraft of bitches.
Okay.
I just wanted to check, but Iguess a way to explain my
partner is he wants to buy theworld.
I'm going to save it.
He says, fuck, I say, sorry.
So we are, As polar oppositesas you can be, like he dropped
out of high school, he can'tspell.
I have a couple of degrees, Iguess you could say.
(05:35):
So we're so different, but it'sinteresting.
I've never met such anincredibly inspiring and
intelligent person.
He is a reason why I keep onpushing towards my dreams.
And I guess the last personwould be my best friend.
So I have, I think we all getto a certain age and we have a
best friend for every occasion.
(05:55):
So I have my really geeky onethat I talk about PubMed
research and we just geek.
And then I have Nadine, who'sbeen my best friend.
I dated her younger brother.
He dumped me.
But the joke in the family is Idated him to get to her.
So we've been friends now, Ithink, 13, 14 years.
So I have these like range offriends that I think we all
(06:16):
have.
And without them, God golly.
Don't know.
Don't know how my head wouldstill be on my neck.
Friends are just the best.
Totally, they are.
Kate Kirwin (06:24):
When I first met you, it was at the Women in Tech
WA conference, which was acouple of years ago.
And I remember seeing you up onstage and you were in a bright
red power suit with these killerheels, unpacking a bunch of
really difficult topics, butwith that little bit of sparkle.
And one of my favourite quotesis, always bring the sparkles,
the mantra that I live by.
And I remember seeing you onstage and being like, yes,
(06:46):
that's my kind of woman.
Katherine Iscoe (06:47):
Oh.
I'll take it.
Kate Kirwin (06:49):
Totally.
And I've been following yousince then across your socials
and LinkedIn and hearing some ofthe lessons that you share.
I'd love for you to tell us alittle bit about your kind of
journey and what got you to whatyou're doing right
Katherine Iscoe (07:01):
I think a lot of rabbit holes.
And I think I think we've allbeen down rabbit holes is like,
is this what we want for ourrelationship?
Is this what we want for ourcareer?
And you sort of go down therabbit hole.
And when you're at the top,you're like, yeah, this is the
only rabbit hole I'm ever goingto go down.
This is right.
This is the right relationshipfor me.
This is a right career choice.
And then you're like halfwaydown.
(07:22):
You're like, what the fuck isgoing on?
And you're like, I'm alreadydown the rabbit hole.
I have to keep on going.
So whether it was my culinarycareer, so I became a pastry
chef when I was 18 years old.
And I was like, okay, I'm goingto open up a restaurant and
catering business.
I did it, went bankrupt for aquarter million dollars.
And then my parents are bothacademics.
(07:43):
They said, okay, just go toschool.
See how you go.
I think that's a greatAustralian saying, see how you
go.
I got stuck there.
Ended up getting scholarships.
Went down a rabbit hole in thatregard.
Started doing research withtype 1 diabetes.
And you just sort of, I thinkwhen you're young, you're just
like, well, what else am I goingto do?
You just get in this safe zone.
(08:04):
And I think at the same time,because I was dealing with such
a severe eating disorder, butback then, no one talked about
it.
It was just this weird thingthat you felt like you were the
only person who went throughthat.
Like nowadays you can click onhashtag anorexia, hashtag, you
know, binge eating disorder.
And you're like, wow, there'sanother million people out
(08:25):
there.
But back then you felt like youwere the weirdest person on
earth.
And I remember getting to thepoint.
So this was during sort of mysecond time of suicidal
ideation.
And I was just at the pointwhere I didn't know what to do.
And I remember thinking, I justsaid, I need to tell my best
friend.
And you know, you catastrophizein your mind.
(08:46):
You're like, if I tell her, allI pictured was she's going to
get like those big men with thewhite padded suits and I was
going to get carted off to likea loony bin.
I said, like, Sarah, I bingeeat when I'm stressed.
I can't control myself.
And I thought she was going tosay, like, what is wrong with
you?
But she said, oh, my God, I dothat, too.
(09:06):
And that was the first, I wouldsay, I call them dimmer switch
moments because light bulbmoments are wonderful.
I think they're great forHollywood movies.
You're like, wow, I'm thecommon denominator for all these
(09:48):
things happening to me.
But that's a hard thing, isn'tit?
Because your ego says it can'tbe you.
It's got to be everyone elsebecause you can't be the screwed
up one.
It's like blame, blame, blame.
And it feels so comfortable toblame everyone else that your
business isn't going well, thatyour grades aren't what they
are, that your health isn't whatit should be.
(10:08):
But you get to the point where,you know, you're 40 years old
and you're like, I'm kind ofhalfway done.
I better do somethingdifferent.
And so it sort of transpiredinto what I'm doing today.
And that really clicked off acouple years ago when it was
like the Bermuda Triangle ofshitstorm, where my relationship
(10:29):
was kind of hanging on by athread.
We're both very, very stubborn.
And my brand wasn't doing whatI wanted it to do.
I felt like I was sort of goingdown this rabbit hole and
talking about things that Iwasn't really passionate about.
I was kind of ticking a boxlike, oh, corporations want to
talk about mindset,productivity.
Oh, I can talk about that.
Because I thought, well,corporations wouldn't want to
(10:51):
hear what I have to say aboutwhat I really believe is
important for people to hear.
You can't sell what you don'tbelieve in.
And so of course, your businessisn't going to work.
So I thought I would do likethe most mature thing and I ran
away.
I was like, screw it, I'm goinghome.
But it's really distance thatgives you such great insight.
And that's sort of when Istarted thinking, well,
(11:13):
confidence is really important,but confidence is the ability to
turn thoughts into actions.
So it's saying, hey, I want toraise my hand in this board
meeting and actually saysomething important.
But what happens before that?
What is the instigating thoughtthat prevents us from putting
our hand up?
And that's where theself-respect came in,
researching it.
(11:34):
And really the summary of whatself-respect is, is knowing that
you're important.
So you put it back in thatcontext of you're around a
boardroom table.
The chairperson is there.
The chairperson is talking.
The CFO is talking.
And here you are, this new kidon the block.
You don't feel as important asthey are.
And that is what prevents usfrom putting ourselves out
(11:58):
there.
And that's why self-respect isso incredibly important, not
only for our professionalcareers, but when we go home and
we have something important tosay to our partner, our kids, it
helps us having thoseconversations that we think are
going to end in catastrophe.
So as you can tell, I couldkeep on talking about it.
I'm very passionate about it.
And I think the world needs tohear about it a heck of a lot
(12:19):
more.
Kate Kirwin (12:20):
I love that.
You can definitely see yourpassion shining through.
And thank you so much forsharing what are really personal
and hard parts of your life aswell.
I'd like to stay onself-respect for a moment.
We both did the quiz on yourwebsite.
We were just chatting about itbefore the self-respect quiz.
There's 32 questions on there.
Things like it's hard for me tolet go.
(12:42):
Or I often doubt that someonelike me could accomplish
something extraordinary.
Or I feel guilty when I'm notproductive, which I definitely
do.
do all the time.
How did you develop that quizand what are some of the things
that you've heard from peoplewho've gone through the
experience of doing the quiz?
Katherine Iscoe (12:59):
Oh, God, I love this question.
So as a research, and I thinkwe all have that sort of brain
set in our mind, like how can wereally look at a topic or a
question in a really objectiveway?
So when I came back toAustralia after my little
emotional breakdown where I justwent with my dad and walked my
dad's dog and got that clarity,I'm like, okay, well, what is
(13:21):
self-respect?
Because at the core of it,that's what my dad and I always
spoke about.
Like confidence is great, butwhat is the importance of
self-respect?
So I dove into the literatureand it was very Shakespearean.
or it was conflated withself-worth, conflated with
confidence.
So, well, I'm a formerresearcher.
I got this.
So I conducted a study, and thequestions are based on some of
(13:45):
the data that I collected fromthose interviews.
So how qualitative researchworks is you have a standardized
set of questions.
You ask the same questions tomultiple people.
You gather the data.
So in this case, the data arequotes.
So you're asking the question,So you look at that interview
(14:06):
and you pick out quotes thathelp you solve that mystery.
And so what I saw was patternsover and over and over again.
Self-respect is me speaking upwhen it matters the most.
Self-respect is accepting thatI was once an alcoholic and now
I don't need to allow that todefine who I am.
Self-respect is the fact that Ihad to have an abortion because
(14:28):
that was what was right for meat the time and I will not let
anyone tell me that that was abad decision, etc., etc., etc.
So all those questions werebasically the categories that I
found through that research.
Jo Minney (14:42):
So I also did the quiz and my results said that I
was in the growth phase.
And I believe that Kate, youalso are in the growth phase.
The score that you get is basedon three things.
Stop me if I'm wrong at allhere.
But the three things that youlist are standing up for
yourself, staying true to whoyou are and understanding
(15:03):
yourself.
And I was looking at these andthinking, which of these do I
fall down on the most?
And to me anyway, it was prettyobvious that the thing I fall
down on the most is standing upfor myself.
It got me thinking, why is itso much easier for us to stand
up for other people than it isto stand up for ourselves?
Katherine Iscoe (15:22):
So the one thing that I found when I was
going through this research issomething that I called the high
achieving people pleaser.
And the crux of this conflictthat happens in our head is that
we want to achieve.
We have this insatiable desireto tick that box to feel worthy
and good enough and importantand respected, but only in ways
(15:48):
that ensures that everyone likesus.
And I think here in Australia,we call it tall poppy.
But I think it's even deeperthan that.
Because if you look at thenuances, like back to the
example, you're in a boardroom,you have a good idea, you want
to put up your hand because youwant to set yourself apart.
But if you do...
Everyone's going to think,well, ain't she full of herself?
(16:09):
Oh, she's like new here.
Why would she think that shecan contribute?
And so in your case, it's thesame sort of thing.
Doing something for others, noproblem, right?
You're giving, you'realtruistic.
Oh, look at her.
She's so loving.
You do it for yourself.
All of a sudden, what a selfishbitch.
That's really what it comesdown to.
(16:29):
So the problem is, with thishigh achieving people pleaser
conflict is that we conflateconfidence with arrogance.
So you standing up for yourselfis turning your thoughts into
actions.
So you're turning yourthoughts, how dare they, into
saying that out loud.
How dare you say that to me?
I thought we had a betterrelationship than this, right?
(16:50):
That's where the importance ofself-respect comes in.
It's your mind that's remindingyou, I know I'm important.
Arrogance is saying, I'm moreimportant than you.
But we conflate the two.
And why do we do that?
It's because it's what we'vebeen taught.
You've already answered thatquestion.
Put your hand down.
Let someone else go first.
Oh, you want to get the toprole?
(17:12):
Who do you think you are?
Why would you put yourselfforward for that?
So we've been taught from avery young age to care more
about the opinions of othersthan we do our own opinion.
And what this distills down tois that must mean other people
are more important than me.
So when you're not standing upfor yourself in the very back of
(17:34):
your mind, likely unconscious,is that that must mean that
their opinion is more importantthan me.
Therefore, they're moreimportant than me.
Does that resonate at all?
Jo Minney (17:43):
Yeah, absolutely.
I think just from my ownpersonal experience of the
world, I noticed that kind ofbehavior a lot more in women.
Does your research support thatat all?
Is this more prevalent incertain types of people?
Katherine Iscoe (17:58):
Anecdotally, no.
And that blew my mind.
So from a very objective pointof view, can I say yes or no?
I can't.
But the interesting thing is,as I start doing more and more
of these keynotes, when it comesto this high achieving people
pleasing conflict, I get 80%feedback from men, not women.
One of my keynotes that I gave,I thought, you know, it's for a
(18:21):
women's association.
There was a few, you know, menin the audience.
And this gentleman who wasprobably, I would say, maybe 65,
you know, the stereotypicalwhite executive male came up to
me and said, I don't know howyou got into my brain.
Can I have a picture with you?
Blew my mind.
So the answer is, it's actuallyall of us.
(18:41):
And that was so surprising tome because that's What we see, I
don't see it.
I'm still trying to figure outw
Kate Kirwin (18:50):
hy.
There's a guy in my She Codescommunity who's said to me
before that one of the things hereally values about being a
mentor is having to checkhimself on the just being
confident and saying an answerto something, even though he
doesn't know, because he's like,I don't want people to think
that I'm stupid.
So I just say something, evenif I'm not confident about it.
Because I don't want them tothink that I don't know what I'm
(19:11):
doing.
And working with beginners haskind of forced him to be like,
actually, I don't know.
And let's just look it uptogether.
So I think perhaps there'sdifferent ways that different
people express that peoplepleasing that sometimes it comes
across as not wanting to lookstupid.
Sometimes it might come acrossas over committing or all of the
other kinds of people pleasing
Katherine Iscoe (19:33):
Oh, for sure.
Short story.
Many, many years ago, I wasthinking about high school.
High school was probably theworst time of my life.
It was just like a cesspool fornegativity.
And this one particular story Iremember that I came back to my
locker and the word slut camewas written over it.
And the background of that isbecause parents got divorced.
I just was desperate for love.
(19:55):
And this is only recently havebeen able to admit this because,
you know, in your mind, you'relike, yeah, it was a slut.
But the reasons why are muchmore important.
That was sort of like anexample of many of the things
that I was going through.
And I just thought, like, whydidn't someone reach out?
Like, why didn't someone seethat?
And I connected with one of myhigh school friends or
(20:17):
associates We were talking aboutthis and she said, I had no
idea this was going on for youbecause I was dealing with my
own shit.
The point being, when you thinkyou're stupid, everyone else is
thinking that they're stupid aswell.
Everyone else is dealing withthe same thing.
And it's kind of like we're allwearing masks and it's like all
acting.
There's a great saying like,I'm not who I think I am.
(20:38):
I'm not who you think I am.
I am who I think that you thinkI am.
Meaning we're all justpretending.
We're all just doing this act,but everyone's in the same boat,
right?
It's so ridiculous.
And my fear, my fear is thatyou get to the end of your life
and your final words are coulda,shoulda, woulda.
That scares the crap out of me.
(21:00):
Absolutely.
There's a great book called TheFive Regrets of the Dying by
Bronnie Ware.
Palliative care has helpedhundreds of people die more
comfortably.
She's had many deepconversations with these people
and her top regret that sheheard over and over again, I
wish I had the courage to live alife true to me, not the life
(21:22):
others expected of me, which ispoint blank what we all go
through when we fear beingstupid, when we fear being not
pretty enough and not goodenough, not this enough.
When I heard that line in thesand, Line in the sand.
And listen, I will be arecovering, high achieving
people pleaser for the rest ofmy life.
(21:42):
But just knowing that, knowingthat everyone's going through
their own stuff.
What is the worst thing that'ssaying, I have no idea what
you're talking about.
I have no idea what thatquestion is.
What is the worst thing thatcould happen?
What is the worst thing thatcould happen if you put up your
hand in your boardroom table,you know, in that board meeting?
Go for a promotion and fail.
(22:03):
Who cares?
Who cares?
No one cares.
Only you.
Anyways, I'm going to get offmy soapbox.
Jo Minney (22:10):
No, no.
You're allowed on the soapbox.
The soapbox is the reason thepodcast exists.
We put it there and we're like,who can we put on the soapbox
next?
So welcome.
We're really glad to have youon our soapbox.
Katherine Iscoe (22:22):
There's just so many incredible people, not
even just women, that are justwaiting for the perfect moment
to make the perfect decision ordo the perfect example.
And I just pray and hope thatthey are listening to this
thing.
This is a sign that the time isYesterday, have that hard
conversation with your partnerbecause he's pissing you off.
(22:43):
Have that conversation withyour boss saying, this is not
good enough.
Have that conversation aroundthe boardroom table as we can do
better.
Why not?
Because I'm telling you,regrets are a heck of a lot
harder to deal with than thatmoment of discomfort when you're
putting up your hand and sayingthat first word.
Amazing.
Jo Minney (23:03):
Kate talked about her first time that she met you,
first time that she saw you.
My first time was a little bitdifferent.
I saw you speak on stage and Iwas like, wow, this woman is
perfect.
Katherine Iscoe (23:14):
Oh, Jesus Christ.
I know, right?
We had to dissect that.
Jo Minney (23:18):
And I feel like maybe I missed a little bit of what
you were talking about with theperfectionism there because in
my head I was thinking thisperson is talking about how
perfectionism is a thing that weall strive for and it's not
really achievable and we beatourselves up over it.
But in my head, I was lookingat you thinking, she's
everything I want to be.
She looks phenomenal.
(23:39):
And those shoes, oh my God.
And like, they really were thecoolest shoes I've ever seen in
my life.
And then at the end of theconference, and it had been a
big day, I was waiting outsidefor an Uber in like the little
pickup area.
And you were also waiting forthe Uber and you had flats on.
And I thought to myself, thankGod, she's human.
Katherine Iscoe (24:01):
And I think the thing that helped me with
shoes, appearance, etc., it'sthere's a big difference between
obsessing about your appearanceand taking pride in
Kate Kirwin (24:11):
So you've talked a lot about some of the hard times
in your life and so manyexperiences you've talked about.
Has having those raft members,those people in your life, made
that journey easier?
And do you have anything youcan tell us about the friends
that have picked you back up orwhere you would be if you didn't
have some of those peoplekeeping your float?
Katherine Iscoe (24:33):
I love this concept of the raft of bitches.
And I would say my partner,he's a bitch as well sometimes.
So I think he could be in thatraft.
There's a great saying, youcan't read the label if you're
inside the bottle.
The point of this is yourperspective of the world is
highly biased and highlyjudgmental, especially of you.
People in your raft can callyour bullshit, but also show you
(24:58):
what you can actually do.
Choose your raft of bitcheswisely.
Make sure that they fit youbecause I'm a high achiever.
I don't want people that like,oh, you tried your best.
No, I haven't tried my bestbecause if I tried my best, then
I would have done what I wantedto do.
That's not good enough.
I have people that never, everlet me say that was good enough.
(25:21):
I'm happy with that.
They're like, no, you failed.
You let things drop.
You were lazy.
And I love that.
That.
is my raft of bitches.
Jo Minney (25:33):
Amazing.
I just want to circle back toone of the questions that's in
your self-respect quiz.
It's about, I can't rememberthe exact wording, but it's
something like, do you enjoywhat you do for a living?
And that one kind of hit mebecause I never really
associated that withself-respect.
I studied for six years at uniin engineering.
(25:54):
I worked as an engineer,absolutely despised it.
I can officially say that now.
I was getting paid really well.
But I was also proper burnt outat the point that I left.
I wasn't sleeping for four daysin a row because I was working
on site four days on, three daysoff.
So I would just come back andsleep for my entire weekend.
When I quit, I got a lot ofjudgment from people.
(26:17):
You know, you studied for solong and And maybe you just need
a break and you can go backinto it.
But for me, it was the 100% theright call.
And it's a really hard decisionto make to go, this thing is
making me miserable.
I need to go and do somethingelse.
Katherine Iscoe (26:31):
How is it related to self-respect?
So one of the components ofself-respect is the ability to
make choices that are true toyou and also to take
responsibility for whateverhappens due to those choices.
So as an example, let's say youdid leave that position and you
weren't able to pay your bills,yada, yada, yada.
Self-respect is saying I madethat choice and I have to live
(26:54):
with the consequences.
The opposite of self-respectwould be I made that choice.
Well, that's because so-and-sodidn't do what they said, yada,
yada, yada, yada.
So that's a connection withself-respect.
Kate Kirwin (27:07):
So I wanted to talk about burnout.
You've been pretty open aboutyour experience of going through
burnout.
Yeah.
I haven't so much, but I wentthrough it a couple of years
ago.
And my story was a whole heapof personal changes in my life.
I just ended a nine-yearrelationship, had moved back
home.
I took on a lot moreresponsibilities at work.
(27:28):
I was traveling for workextensively.
And then I got COVID for thefirst time.
It's literally not anexaggeration to say I couldn't
stand up in the shower.
And people look at me like,what do you mean?
You're like 30 and young andhealthy.
That's Everything else in mybody just being like, Kate, you
need to rest.
This is crazy.
(27:49):
We can't keep doing thisanymore.
And I think that took me maybethree months to feel like a
regular human again.
The other women in this roomcan...
I have a lot to owe them abouthow they helped me through that
experience.
I'd love to hear what yourexperience was like and how did
you get through your burnout?
Katherine Iscoe (28:08):
This was about two years ago now.
And my friends and, you know,colleagues, people in my office
were saying, like, you justdon't seem like yourself lately.
You know, you're not yourweird, quirky self.
And I sort of brushed it offlike we got stuff to do.
High Achiever.
High Achiever.
High Achiever.
Right.
You know, people please.
I can't take time off.
Like, you know, I'll be late.
(28:29):
So eventually one of them said,why don't you just go talk to
someone like a psychologist anddo one session.
See if you find out anythingthat can help you sort of guide
yourself through this.
Went to a psychologist andwithin 15 minutes she said, Kat,
you're burnt out.
I'm like, no, I'm not.
I'm a mindset expert.
(28:50):
I don't get burnout, like, youknow, shields, you know, armour.
And eventually she said, you'regoing to have to take some time
off.
And I said, well, how much timeoff?
And I kid you not, she went,you know, when they, you know,
she said, probably about amonth.
I said, yeah, nah.
And I bargained her down to,I'll take the rest of the
(29:14):
afternoon off.
So from a month to the rest ofthe afternoon.
So I go home and I'm like,okay, I'm going to do like
hashtag self-care.
I'm going to get like ajournal, you know, from Kmart
and the pretty gold pen and, youknow, make a cup of tea and
like, you know, do the Instagramphoto, like hashtag self-care.
Kate Kirwin (29:32):
That solves all problems, right?
Katherine Iscoe (29:33):
Of course, of course.
So I'm thinking, so I do thisexercise.
It's called the flow writingexercise.
It was validated in the 1980s.
Basically, it's like openingtaps, right?
You have a prompt question.
So in my case, it was, how doesit feel to be you right now?
You set a timer for fiveminutes and you just write.
You don't scratch anything out.
(29:54):
You don't have to have perfectgrammar.
You know, you just let it rip.
And I was thinking, you know,the clouds were going to open up
and like this light was goingto shine down on the piece of
paper and like, oh, here's youranswer.
And you can go back to work.
And that's it.
Whereas reality, what happenedis like the most profane writing
(30:14):
of my entire life.
I gripped the pen like aNeanderthal and was scratching
it like F you, F you.
And like just the amount ofanger and rage that came out on
that paper was certainly notCanadian by any means.
And I remember the timersounded and I threw the journal
(30:38):
down on my couch and I gave itthe double middle finger.
And I was just screaming.
I was just like I waspossessed.
Afterwards, like a couple ofdays later, I'm like, what was
that about?
And then I was like, she saidit was burnt out.
But the burnout that I read onGwyneth Paltrow's blog is, oh,
you're, you know, tired and soforth.
And I'm like, that wasn't myexperience.
(30:58):
That was definitely not myexperience.
And then it made me ask, like,well, if I've went through this,
then maybe other people have aswell.
And that's when I startedtalking to people.
And they're like, yeah, we'retired.
Of course, we're tired.
You know, we're working 60hours a week.
But that's not what bothers us.
What bothers us is we'rereally, really angry.
We're angry that we're sayingyes to things when we want to
(31:22):
say no.
The to-do list, the post-itnote list is endless.
We don't even need to go there.
But I was like, God, this is adifferent kind of burnout.
And I call it the burnouttriad.
It's anger, which I say in adifferent way.
Fuck.
Fear and the facade.
So the anger part is why have Iallowed myself to get to this
(31:43):
point of people pleasing?
The way I describe it is whenyou keep the peace, the only
thing that that does is keep thetension in your brain, which
builds up into anger.
Fear is if I take this timeoff, am I ever going to be
successful?
If I take off one month, threemonths, there goes my career.
I'm never going to be able toget ahead again.
All my competitors, maybe mybusiness is going to get taken
(32:08):
off me, you know, catastrophize,catastrophize.
And the facade is this wholeconcept of why am I complaining?
Other people have it so muchworse than me.
I can't share this.
Oh, look at me, like theprivileged person complaining
that they're feeling like reallydown and burnt out when we have
a quote unquote nice life.
(32:28):
I know I'm seeing like...
To the people listening here,everyone's like nodding around
the table like, you, you,
Kate Kirwin (32:35):
you, you.
And Jo is giving me the mostpointed looks.
Every time you say anything,she's like, Kate, are we
listening?
Katherine Iscoe (32:44):
And so that was my experience.
And I thought to me it was themost relieving thing because I
don't know about you, but Inever hear, especially women,
talking about anger.
Speaker 03 (32:57):
Because
Katherine Iscoe (32:58):
I think we need to be these martyrs like, oh,
she's so nice.
Oh, my God, she's like sosuccessful.
But oh, my God, she's so nice.
And she's so helpful.
I did the valley girl accentfor you there.
But you know what I mean?
Like nailed it, nailed it,nailed it.
But you never hear like, God,wow, she really lost the plot.
We just don't talk about anger.
And I just don't know why.
(33:19):
Because I think that's such acritical component of burnout.
And if we could just Solve thata little bit.
I think we'd have lower levelsof burnout.
Southern accent.
I don't know where they'recoming from.
Kate Kirwin (33:33):
I love it.
We've had such a wild ride.
And before we started this showtoday, Kat was giving us her
attempt of an Australian accent,which we won't force you to do
on mic.
I think that would be unfair.
Oh,
Jo Minney (33:44):
hey,
Kate Kirwin (33:44):
it's
Jo Minney (33:44):
getting
Kate Kirwin (33:45):
better.
Yes, you nailed
Jo Minney (33:46):
it.
Kate Kirwin (33:46):
so good.
For me, and I think why Jo wasgiving me a lot of these pointed
looks while you were talking,in that period of burnout where
I felt like I was recovering, Iwas still saying yes to so many
things that I knew I should havesaid no to.
One of the moments I was withmy boss talking about everything
that I had coming up in thenext period of time and I just
started like ugly crying.
(34:07):
He was like, but Why do we needto do that now, Kate?
Could we not just do that inlike two weeks?
Like, does it have to be today?
And I'm like, yes, it has to betoday.
Why?
It can't be any other day thantoday.
And he's like, but who cares?
Does it diminish any of thevalue of the work we're doing if
we're not doing it today?
I'm like, but I'm lettingpeople down and people are going
(34:29):
to feel bad and they're notgoing to be able to start their
coding journey because I can'tdo it.
And that would be the worstthing ever.
And he literally sent me homeand was like, you need to go
just sit down for two weeks andcome back when you stop crying.
But yeah, it was that, I thinka lot of that people pleasing of
like, I can't possibly take abreak or stop or...
have a more realistic schedulebecause I can do this.
(34:53):
I've been doing this for a longtime.
It's only another little bitmore pushing.
I can just keep pushing.
Katherine Iscoe (34:58):
That's your high achiever.
So your high achiever issaying, we have to push forward.
We have to grow.
We have to, you know, buildthis.
And then the people pleaser issaying, yeah, but we can't let
her like people down.
But then the high achiever islike, well, but you know, it's
just this fight that happens inour head and drains our energy.
Jo Minney (35:18):
Yeah.
What's your best peoplepleasing story?
What's the thing that for youis your ultimate people pleasing
story?
Katherine Iscoe (35:27):
How many stories do I have?
I think the one that might hithome.
So this was during my master'sdegree.
And this is a time that I wasin that very dark period of my
life, you know, at the bowels ofmy eating disorder.
It was just horrendous.
I was having an affair withsomeone like and that just took
(35:47):
every inch of self-worth anddignity out of my soul.
And I just felt like I didn'tbelong there.
I felt like I was stupidbecause everyone, you know,
biochemistry, like we're talkinghighly, highly intelligent
people in the area of science.
Every Friday we would have ajournal presentation or
presentations.
People would, you know, showtheir research.
(36:08):
And I remember this guy,Sergio, was presenting.
I'm like, I'm going to ask areally important question, like
a smart person question.
You know, like when you're at aconference and someone raises
their hand, you're like, wow,that person must be smart.
I don't understand what they'resaying.
So I'm like, I'm going to askone of those questions because I
wanted everyone to validate me.
And in my head, I thought,well, I'm going to ask this
(36:28):
question and it's going to belike in the movies where
everyone turns and they slowlystand up and they clap.
You know, like, wow, she is sosmart.
Like, validation,people-pleasing, when in reality
what happened is I asked aquestion and it was like time
just stopped.
Everyone just looked at melike, what are you talking
(36:50):
about?
And I remember my supervisorlooked at me and he just started
shaking his head.
And then it got worse.
He actually turned back to thefront, crossed his legs slowly
and put his head in his hand andjust kept on shaking his head.
It was the worst moment of mylife.
But the point of this is, is Iwas so worried about pleasing
everyone else.
(37:10):
It's like, hey, wow, look atme.
I'm so smart.
Like, you know, I want to beone of you.
Accept me into the likedoctrine of academic and this
field of STEM.
And to this day, I'll alwaysremember that.
Never ask a question to provethat you deserve to be there.
Ask a question because you wantto know the answer.
(37:31):
Big difference.
Jo Minney (37:32):
Wow.
I wish more people who went tothe conferences I go to had
heard that advice.
Mm-hmm.
One of the things we like toask all of our guests is what's
the next step in your journeyand how can we help you get
there?
So who were you looking toconnect with?
And is there anything that wecan ask our raft to help you
with?
Katherine Iscoe (37:53):
I have recently created what I think is my best
keynote speech ever because itis 100% me in the sense of
storytelling and quirkiness andentertainment.
And I recently did it and I gotapplause after 90 seconds.
My high achiever was...
Absolutely so happy.
As a keynote speaker, you don'tever think your speech is good
(38:17):
enough to get on big stages.
But I'm actually now at thepoint where I'm like, people,
please be gone.
I'm actually really proud ofthis.
And I think it really can makea difference.
So my request is to get onbigger stages and in the world
conference organizers, anything,anything that would allow me to
wear my best shoes and sparkleon stage.
Jo Minney (38:36):
All right, Raft, our goal is to get Dr.
Katherine Iscoe onto the TEDstage.
So if anyone's got connections,
Kate Kirwin (38:44):
let's make this happen.
Is there anyone missing fromyour raft or anyone else that
you want to connect with?
Katherine Iscoe (38:49):
Oh, all right.
A few years ago, I started thisseries called In Her Shoes.
Jo Minney (38:54):
Excellent.
Katherine Iscoe (38:55):
Yeah, it was a series that I piloted.
It's shoes, stories andsensational women.
And it was interviewingincredible women, but it was
really their struggles behindtheir success.
And we would do this while shoeshopping.
In the past couple of months,I've really been toying about
the idea of trying to get itback out there.
(39:15):
Obviously, you know, it costs afew bucks to do this.
So I've actually put my feelersout for directors, producers.
to try to get this back up andrunning again.
It's actually a very profitablebusiness proposition.
And the benefit of this is thatwe would try to get this into
schools.
Because I think having a16-year-old girl watch these
(39:38):
incredible women and actuallythe stories underneath their
success.
So when they do get out intothe work and they say, oh, wow,
there's a female CEO.
She must have had it so easy.
She must be super smart.
She must have yada, yada, yada.
This is long.
Imagine a 16-year-old girllistening to story where
actually I didn't finish highschool and I was on the streets
(39:59):
you know there's many stories ofthis imagine that girl seeing
that and saying Ashley you knowwhat yeah I can code I can be
CEO I can be an engineer or Ican be a fashion designer what
doesn't matter what they want tobe allowing them to see that
inspiration so they can forgetheir own path that's why I want
to get the inner issues seriesup up and running
Jo Minney (40:20):
I love that.
Katherine Iscoe (40:22):
Okay, so producers and...
Producers, directors, anyonereally in the entertainment
industry.
field.
So my feelers are out.
Kate Kirwin (40:31):
And where can people connect with you and find
you?
Where are you on the internet?
Katherine Iscoe (40:35):
Yeah, website drkatherine.com.
That's I'm sure you'll have itin the link.
And the other part would beInstagram.
So benefit of that is you seeshort 60 second videos that
might just help you change yourmindset for the day.
So I do everything from skits,high achieving people pleasing
skits to just stories and posts.
And I just love Yeah, I reallylove it.
(40:56):
I love that little communitythat we've built.
They're pretty funny.
Yeah, thanks.
Kate Kirwin (41:01):
They are.
They're hilarious.
There's some real gold inthere.
So definitely if you've enjoyedlistening to Dr.
Katherine today, check her outon
Jo Minney (41:08):
Instagram.
Excellent.
And don't forget to go on toDr.
Katherine's website and takethe self-respect quiz and find
out which phase you are in.
Unfortunately, we are onceagain utterly out of time.
That's right.
But if you have an epicpeople-pleasing story, we'd love
to hear from you.
And where can people reach us,Jo?
(41:30):
We are on Instagram at RaftPodcast, or you can email hello
at raftpodcast.com.
Kate Kirwin (41:37):
And for previous episodes or to find out more,
don't forget to check out ourwebsite, raftpodcast.com, or
find us wherever you downloadpodcasts.
Thanks for listening, Rafters.
Catch you
Jo Minney (41:48):
next time.
Katherine Iscoe (42:09):
The feelers have been starteth, but we can
continueth
Kate Kirwin (42:15):
with the rafteth.
I love it.
You've gone Shakespearean toend this
Katherine Iscoe (42:19):
podcast.
A lot of accents today.
Hi Rafters, before this episode begins, we just
wanted to share a contentwarning with you.
This episode touches on somedifficult topics, including
eating disorders and suicide.
If any of that is triggeringfor you, catch us back up in the
next episode.
Otherwise, it really is a greatchat and we hope you'll get a
lot out of the episode.
As usual, this episode containsadult language and concepts.
Unknown (00:29):
Music
Jo Minney (00:36):
For centuries, women have been taught that we are
each other's worst enemies.
But in our experience, womenare more like otters than queen
bees.
Female otters, bitches, if youwill, join hands with each other
to create rafts that stop themfrom drifting apart and losing
each other while they're asleep.
Just like a literal raft ofbitches, our experience has been
(00:58):
that thriving women often havea tight-knit circle of other
women who helped them get thereby providing information and
support along the way and makingsure that we all stay afloat.
Kate Kirwin (01:10):
Welcome to another episode of the Rafter Bitches
podcast.
So I'm Kate and I'm here withmy co-host today, Jo Minney.
And a fun fact about Jo is thather entire wardrobe is either
pink, orange or purple.
And we affectionately refer toit as Jo coloured.
Jo Minney (01:25):
It's true.
I'm wearing purple today andI'm here with my co-host Kate
Kirwin.
And a fun fact about Kate, sheis currently wearing sparkly
boots and owns three otherdifferent pairs of
sparkly boots.
Kate Kirwin (01:42):
I am wearing sparkly shoes, Jo.
I'm wearing them today becauseour guest is a self-confessed
shoe addict.
So I'm wearing them in herhonour.
Our guest for today's episodeis Dr.
Katherine Iscoe.
Katherine is a motivationalspeaker on the benefits of
self-respect She works withorganizations who want leaders
that bring 100% of themselves towork and never leave saying
(02:04):
shoulda, coulda, woulda.
She's also a board member, aformer tech CEO and a multiple
scholarship winner.
Despite all of these successes,she hid an eating disorder,
fear, depression and suicidalthoughts.
Her personal journey drives herto inspire others to find inner
peace and overcomeself-destructive tendencies.
Dr.
(02:25):
Katherine, welcome to thepodcast.
Jo Minney (02:27):
So So great to see you all again.
Awesome.
We are looking forward togetting into the discussion.
We've got lots to cover today,exploring people pleasing,
perfectionism, self-respect,burnout, but we would like to do
a bit of an icebreaker first toget to know you.
You've suggested your ownicebreaker.
If you could have dinner withsomeone from any timeline, who
(02:48):
would it be?
So who would it be?
I'm curious to know.
Katherine Iscoe (02:51):
My great-grandmother.
So she's no longer with us,but...
I've been told that I'm herreincarnated.
She had what we say a lot ofchutzpah.
So it means like just likeveering between confidence and
hubris.
There's a great story, which Iwill do a truncated version.
So she was a Jew.
This was in 1938 in Bratislava,which was formerly communist
(03:14):
regime.
Obviously, this is when Hitlerwas trying to cleanse Europe of
its quote unquote, dirty people,homosexuals, Jews, etc.
And so she heard a knock at thedoor.
She opened the door and therewas two grown men with rifles
pointing them right at her.
Her son was out of theapartment at the time, but her
daughter was there.
She was 12 years old.
(03:35):
She fainted.
And my great-grandmother, whois my size, so barely 5'1", had
to make a decision.
She said, do I just follow themand let them obviously take me
to my eventual death andprobably my daughter's death, or
do I do something?
So she took the two grown menwith rifles over to the balcony,
so they were in a penthouse,and she said, you can either
(03:58):
throw us off or you could shootus right here, but we're not
going with you.
And the story goes, the twogrown men were so scared of my
great-grandmother that theyactually left, and she ended up
escaping.
And the rest of the story islong and complex, but...
That is my great-grandmother toa T, and there's so many
(04:18):
lessons, so many lessons that Iwould have loved just to have
one more conversation with her,just to extract a bit more out
of her.
Kate Kirwin (04:28):
That's so cute.
I love that.
I literally have chills.
I can feel the hair standing upon my arm listening to you.
I can see your goosebumps.
Katherine Iscoe (04:37):
She was quite a woman, quite a woman.
Kate Kirwin (04:40):
And I think you can feel a lot of the tenacity and
perseverance and drive throughthat story and through your own
story as well, which I'm superexcited to hear a little bit
more about today.
I'd love to know who'sin your raft.
Katherine Iscoe (04:52):
Oh gosh, definitely my dad.
My dad is my best friend.
He's probably the reason whyI'm here today, which I'm sure
we'll get into.
There is an amount ofindescribable love that I have
for him that is just, I'm solucky, so lucky to have him.
My partner, who's my completeopposite, we, I don't know if
(05:14):
swearing is okay.
Well, I mean, it's called theraft of bitches.
Okay.
I just wanted to check, but Iguess a way to explain my
partner is he wants to buy theworld.
I'm going to save it.
He says, fuck, I say, sorry.
So we are, As polar oppositesas you can be, like he dropped
out of high school, he can'tspell.
I have a couple of degrees, Iguess you could say.
(05:35):
So we're so different, but it'sinteresting.
I've never met such anincredibly inspiring and
intelligent person.
He is a reason why I keep onpushing towards my dreams.
And I guess the last personwould be my best friend.
So I have, I think we all getto a certain age and we have a
best friend for every occasion.
(05:55):
So I have my really geeky onethat I talk about PubMed
research and we just geek.
And then I have Nadine, who'sbeen my best friend.
I dated her younger brother.
He dumped me.
But the joke in the family is Idated him to get to her.
So we've been friends now, Ithink, 13, 14 years.
So I have these like range offriends that I think we all
(06:16):
have.
And without them, God golly.
Don't know.
Don't know how my head wouldstill be on my neck.
Friends are just the best.
Totally, they are.
Kate Kirwin (06:24):
When I first met you, it was at the Women in Tech
WA conference, which was acouple of years ago.
And I remember seeing you up onstage and you were in a bright
red power suit with these killerheels, unpacking a bunch of
really difficult topics, butwith that little bit of sparkle.
And one of my favourite quotesis, always bring the sparkles,
the mantra that I live by.
And I remember seeing you onstage and being like, yes,
(06:46):
that's my kind of woman.
Katherine Iscoe (06:47):
Oh.
I'll take it.
Kate Kirwin (06:49):
Totally.
And I've been following yousince then across your socials
and LinkedIn and hearing some ofthe lessons that you share.
I'd love for you to tell us alittle bit about your kind of
journey and what got you to whatyou're doing right
Katherine Iscoe (07:01):
I think a lot of rabbit holes.
And I think I think we've allbeen down rabbit holes is like,
is this what we want for ourrelationship?
Is this what we want for ourcareer?
And you sort of go down therabbit hole.
And when you're at the top,you're like, yeah, this is the
only rabbit hole I'm ever goingto go down.
This is right.
This is the right relationshipfor me.
This is a right career choice.
And then you're like halfwaydown.
(07:22):
You're like, what the fuck isgoing on?
And you're like, I'm alreadydown the rabbit hole.
I have to keep on going.
So whether it was my culinarycareer, so I became a pastry
chef when I was 18 years old.
And I was like, okay, I'm goingto open up a restaurant and
catering business.
I did it, went bankrupt for aquarter million dollars.
And then my parents are bothacademics.
(07:43):
They said, okay, just go toschool.
See how you go.
I think that's a greatAustralian saying, see how you
go.
I got stuck there.
Ended up getting scholarships.
Went down a rabbit hole in thatregard.
Started doing research withtype 1 diabetes.
And you just sort of, I thinkwhen you're young, you're just
like, well, what else am I goingto do?
You just get in this safe zone.
(08:04):
And I think at the same time,because I was dealing with such
a severe eating disorder, butback then, no one talked about
it.
It was just this weird thingthat you felt like you were the
only person who went throughthat.
Like nowadays you can click onhashtag anorexia, hashtag, you
know, binge eating disorder.
And you're like, wow, there'sanother million people out
(08:25):
there.
But back then you felt like youwere the weirdest person on
earth.
And I remember getting to thepoint.
So this was during sort of mysecond time of suicidal
ideation.
And I was just at the pointwhere I didn't know what to do.
And I remember thinking, I justsaid, I need to tell my best
friend.
And you know, you catastrophizein your mind.
(08:46):
You're like, if I tell her, allI pictured was she's going to
get like those big men with thewhite padded suits and I was
going to get carted off to likea loony bin.
I said, like, Sarah, I bingeeat when I'm stressed.
I can't control myself.
And I thought she was going tosay, like, what is wrong with
you?
But she said, oh, my God, I dothat, too.
(09:06):
And that was the first, I wouldsay, I call them dimmer switch
moments because light bulbmoments are wonderful.
I think they're great forHollywood movies.
You're like, wow, I'm thecommon denominator for all these
(09:48):
things happening to me.
But that's a hard thing, isn'tit?
Because your ego says it can'tbe you.
It's got to be everyone elsebecause you can't be the screwed
up one.
It's like blame, blame, blame.
And it feels so comfortable toblame everyone else that your
business isn't going well, thatyour grades aren't what they
are, that your health isn't whatit should be.
(10:08):
But you get to the point where,you know, you're 40 years old
and you're like, I'm kind ofhalfway done.
I better do somethingdifferent.
And so it sort of transpiredinto what I'm doing today.
And that really clicked off acouple years ago when it was
like the Bermuda Triangle ofshitstorm, where my relationship
(10:29):
was kind of hanging on by athread.
We're both very, very stubborn.
And my brand wasn't doing whatI wanted it to do.
I felt like I was sort of goingdown this rabbit hole and
talking about things that Iwasn't really passionate about.
I was kind of ticking a boxlike, oh, corporations want to
talk about mindset,productivity.
Oh, I can talk about that.
Because I thought, well,corporations wouldn't want to
(10:51):
hear what I have to say aboutwhat I really believe is
important for people to hear.
You can't sell what you don'tbelieve in.
And so of course, your businessisn't going to work.
So I thought I would do likethe most mature thing and I ran
away.
I was like, screw it, I'm goinghome.
But it's really distance thatgives you such great insight.
And that's sort of when Istarted thinking, well,
(11:13):
confidence is really important,but confidence is the ability to
turn thoughts into actions.
So it's saying, hey, I want toraise my hand in this board
meeting and actually saysomething important.
But what happens before that?
What is the instigating thoughtthat prevents us from putting
our hand up?
And that's where theself-respect came in,
researching it.
(11:34):
And really the summary of whatself-respect is, is knowing that
you're important.
So you put it back in thatcontext of you're around a
boardroom table.
The chairperson is there.
The chairperson is talking.
The CFO is talking.
And here you are, this new kidon the block.
You don't feel as important asthey are.
And that is what prevents usfrom putting ourselves out
(11:58):
there.
And that's why self-respect isso incredibly important, not
only for our professionalcareers, but when we go home and
we have something important tosay to our partner, our kids, it
helps us having thoseconversations that we think are
going to end in catastrophe.
So as you can tell, I couldkeep on talking about it.
I'm very passionate about it.
And I think the world needs tohear about it a heck of a lot
(12:19):
more.
Kate Kirwin (12:20):
I love that.
You can definitely see yourpassion shining through.
And thank you so much forsharing what are really personal
and hard parts of your life aswell.
I'd like to stay onself-respect for a moment.
We both did the quiz on yourwebsite.
We were just chatting about itbefore the self-respect quiz.
There's 32 questions on there.
Things like it's hard for me tolet go.
(12:42):
Or I often doubt that someonelike me could accomplish
something extraordinary.
Or I feel guilty when I'm notproductive, which I definitely
do.
do all the time.
How did you develop that quizand what are some of the things
that you've heard from peoplewho've gone through the
experience of doing the quiz?
Katherine Iscoe (12:59):
Oh, God, I love this question.
So as a research, and I thinkwe all have that sort of brain
set in our mind, like how can wereally look at a topic or a
question in a really objectiveway?
So when I came back toAustralia after my little
emotional breakdown where I justwent with my dad and walked my
dad's dog and got that clarity,I'm like, okay, well, what is
(13:21):
self-respect?
Because at the core of it,that's what my dad and I always
spoke about.
Like confidence is great, butwhat is the importance of
self-respect?
So I dove into the literatureand it was very Shakespearean.
or it was conflated withself-worth, conflated with
confidence.
So, well, I'm a formerresearcher.
I got this.
So I conducted a study, and thequestions are based on some of
(13:45):
the data that I collected fromthose interviews.
So how qualitative researchworks is you have a standardized
set of questions.
You ask the same questions tomultiple people.
You gather the data.
So in this case, the data arequotes.
So you're asking the question,So you look at that interview
(14:06):
and you pick out quotes thathelp you solve that mystery.
And so what I saw was patternsover and over and over again.
Self-respect is me speaking upwhen it matters the most.
Self-respect is accepting thatI was once an alcoholic and now
I don't need to allow that todefine who I am.
Self-respect is the fact that Ihad to have an abortion because
(14:28):
that was what was right for meat the time and I will not let
anyone tell me that that was abad decision, etc., etc., etc.
So all those questions werebasically the categories that I
found through that research.
Jo Minney (14:42):
So I also did the quiz and my results said that I
was in the growth phase.
And I believe that Kate, youalso are in the growth phase.
The score that you get is basedon three things.
Stop me if I'm wrong at allhere.
But the three things that youlist are standing up for
yourself, staying true to whoyou are and understanding
(15:03):
yourself.
And I was looking at these andthinking, which of these do I
fall down on the most?
And to me anyway, it was prettyobvious that the thing I fall
down on the most is standing upfor myself.
It got me thinking, why is itso much easier for us to stand
up for other people than it isto stand up for ourselves?
Katherine Iscoe (15:22):
So the one thing that I found when I was
going through this research issomething that I called the high
achieving people pleaser.
And the crux of this conflictthat happens in our head is that
we want to achieve.
We have this insatiable desireto tick that box to feel worthy
and good enough and importantand respected, but only in ways
(15:48):
that ensures that everyone likesus.
And I think here in Australia,we call it tall poppy.
But I think it's even deeperthan that.
Because if you look at thenuances, like back to the
example, you're in a boardroom,you have a good idea, you want
to put up your hand because youwant to set yourself apart.
But if you do...
Everyone's going to think,well, ain't she full of herself?
(16:09):
Oh, she's like new here.
Why would she think that shecan contribute?
And so in your case, it's thesame sort of thing.
Doing something for others, noproblem, right?
You're giving, you'realtruistic.
Oh, look at her.
She's so loving.
You do it for yourself.
All of a sudden, what a selfishbitch.
That's really what it comesdown to.
(16:29):
So the problem is, with thishigh achieving people pleaser
conflict is that we conflateconfidence with arrogance.
So you standing up for yourselfis turning your thoughts into
actions.
So you're turning yourthoughts, how dare they, into
saying that out loud.
How dare you say that to me?
I thought we had a betterrelationship than this, right?
(16:50):
That's where the importance ofself-respect comes in.
It's your mind that's remindingyou, I know I'm important.
Arrogance is saying, I'm moreimportant than you.
But we conflate the two.
And why do we do that?
It's because it's what we'vebeen taught.
You've already answered thatquestion.
Put your hand down.
Let someone else go first.
Oh, you want to get the toprole?
(17:12):
Who do you think you are?
Why would you put yourselfforward for that?
So we've been taught from avery young age to care more
about the opinions of othersthan we do our own opinion.
And what this distills down tois that must mean other people
are more important than me.
So when you're not standing upfor yourself in the very back of
(17:34):
your mind, likely unconscious,is that that must mean that
their opinion is more importantthan me.
Therefore, they're moreimportant than me.
Does that resonate at all?
Jo Minney (17:43):
Yeah, absolutely.
I think just from my ownpersonal experience of the
world, I noticed that kind ofbehavior a lot more in women.
Does your research support thatat all?
Is this more prevalent incertain types of people?
Katherine Iscoe (17:58):
Anecdotally, no.
And that blew my mind.
So from a very objective pointof view, can I say yes or no?
I can't.
But the interesting thing is,as I start doing more and more
of these keynotes, when it comesto this high achieving people
pleasing conflict, I get 80%feedback from men, not women.
One of my keynotes that I gave,I thought, you know, it's for a
(18:21):
women's association.
There was a few, you know, menin the audience.
And this gentleman who wasprobably, I would say, maybe 65,
you know, the stereotypicalwhite executive male came up to
me and said, I don't know howyou got into my brain.
Can I have a picture with you?
Blew my mind.
So the answer is, it's actuallyall of us.
(18:41):
And that was so surprising tome because that's What we see, I
don't see it.
I'm still trying to figure outw
Kate Kirwin (18:50):
hy.
There's a guy in my She Codescommunity who's said to me
before that one of the things hereally values about being a
mentor is having to checkhimself on the just being
confident and saying an answerto something, even though he
doesn't know, because he's like,I don't want people to think
that I'm stupid.
So I just say something, evenif I'm not confident about it.
Because I don't want them tothink that I don't know what I'm
(19:11):
doing.
And working with beginners haskind of forced him to be like,
actually, I don't know.
And let's just look it uptogether.
So I think perhaps there'sdifferent ways that different
people express that peoplepleasing that sometimes it comes
across as not wanting to lookstupid.
Sometimes it might come acrossas over committing or all of the
other kinds of people pleasing
Katherine Iscoe (19:33):
Oh, for sure.
Short story.
Many, many years ago, I wasthinking about high school.
High school was probably theworst time of my life.
It was just like a cesspool fornegativity.
And this one particular story Iremember that I came back to my
locker and the word slut camewas written over it.
And the background of that isbecause parents got divorced.
I just was desperate for love.
(19:55):
And this is only recently havebeen able to admit this because,
you know, in your mind, you'relike, yeah, it was a slut.
But the reasons why are muchmore important.
That was sort of like anexample of many of the things
that I was going through.
And I just thought, like, whydidn't someone reach out?
Like, why didn't someone seethat?
And I connected with one of myhigh school friends or
(20:17):
associates We were talking aboutthis and she said, I had no
idea this was going on for youbecause I was dealing with my
own shit.
The point being, when you thinkyou're stupid, everyone else is
thinking that they're stupid aswell.
Everyone else is dealing withthe same thing.
And it's kind of like we're allwearing masks and it's like all
acting.
There's a great saying like,I'm not who I think I am.
(20:38):
I'm not who you think I am.
I am who I think that you thinkI am.
Meaning we're all justpretending.
We're all just doing this act,but everyone's in the same boat,
right?
It's so ridiculous.
And my fear, my fear is thatyou get to the end of your life
and your final words are coulda,shoulda, woulda.
That scares the crap out of me.
(21:00):
Absolutely.
There's a great book called TheFive Regrets of the Dying by
Bronnie Ware.
Palliative care has helpedhundreds of people die more
comfortably.
She's had many deepconversations with these people
and her top regret that sheheard over and over again, I
wish I had the courage to live alife true to me, not the life
(21:22):
others expected of me, which ispoint blank what we all go
through when we fear beingstupid, when we fear being not
pretty enough and not goodenough, not this enough.
When I heard that line in thesand, Line in the sand.
And listen, I will be arecovering, high achieving
people pleaser for the rest ofmy life.
(21:42):
But just knowing that, knowingthat everyone's going through
their own stuff.
What is the worst thing that'ssaying, I have no idea what
you're talking about.
I have no idea what thatquestion is.
What is the worst thing thatcould happen?
What is the worst thing thatcould happen if you put up your
hand in your boardroom table,you know, in that board meeting?
Go for a promotion and fail.
(22:03):
Who cares?
Who cares?
No one cares.
Only you.
Anyways, I'm going to get offmy soapbox.
Jo Minney (22:10):
No, no.
You're allowed on the soapbox.
The soapbox is the reason thepodcast exists.
We put it there and we're like,who can we put on the soapbox
next?
So welcome.
We're really glad to have youon our soapbox.
Katherine Iscoe (22:22):
There's just so many incredible people, not
even just women, that are justwaiting for the perfect moment
to make the perfect decision ordo the perfect example.
And I just pray and hope thatthey are listening to this
thing.
This is a sign that the time isYesterday, have that hard
conversation with your partnerbecause he's pissing you off.
(22:43):
Have that conversation withyour boss saying, this is not
good enough.
Have that conversation aroundthe boardroom table as we can do
better.
Why not?
Because I'm telling you,regrets are a heck of a lot
harder to deal with than thatmoment of discomfort when you're
putting up your hand and sayingthat first word.
Amazing.
Jo Minney (23:03):
Kate talked about her first time that she met you,
first time that she saw you.
My first time was a little bitdifferent.
I saw you speak on stage and Iwas like, wow, this woman is
perfect.
Katherine Iscoe (23:14):
Oh, Jesus Christ.
I know, right?
We had to dissect that.
Jo Minney (23:18):
And I feel like maybe I missed a little bit of what
you were talking about with theperfectionism there because in
my head I was thinking thisperson is talking about how
perfectionism is a thing that weall strive for and it's not
really achievable and we beatourselves up over it.
But in my head, I was lookingat you thinking, she's
everything I want to be.
She looks phenomenal.
(23:39):
And those shoes, oh my God.
And like, they really were thecoolest shoes I've ever seen in
my life.
And then at the end of theconference, and it had been a
big day, I was waiting outsidefor an Uber in like the little
pickup area.
And you were also waiting forthe Uber and you had flats on.
And I thought to myself, thankGod, she's human.
Katherine Iscoe (24:01):
And I think the thing that helped me with
shoes, appearance, etc., it'sthere's a big difference between
obsessing about your appearanceand taking pride in
Kate Kirwin (24:11):
So you've talked a lot about some of the hard times
in your life and so manyexperiences you've talked about.
Has having those raft members,those people in your life, made
that journey easier?
And do you have anything youcan tell us about the friends
that have picked you back up orwhere you would be if you didn't
have some of those peoplekeeping your float?
Katherine Iscoe (24:33):
I love this concept of the raft of bitches.
And I would say my partner,he's a bitch as well sometimes.
So I think he could be in thatraft.
There's a great saying, youcan't read the label if you're
inside the bottle.
The point of this is yourperspective of the world is
highly biased and highlyjudgmental, especially of you.
People in your raft can callyour bullshit, but also show you
(24:58):
what you can actually do.
Choose your raft of bitcheswisely.
Make sure that they fit youbecause I'm a high achiever.
I don't want people that like,oh, you tried your best.
No, I haven't tried my bestbecause if I tried my best, then
I would have done what I wantedto do.
That's not good enough.
I have people that never, everlet me say that was good enough.
(25:21):
I'm happy with that.
They're like, no, you failed.
You let things drop.
You were lazy.
And I love that.
That.
is my raft of bitches.
Jo Minney (25:33):
Amazing.
I just want to circle back toone of the questions that's in
your self-respect quiz.
It's about, I can't rememberthe exact wording, but it's
something like, do you enjoywhat you do for a living?
And that one kind of hit mebecause I never really
associated that withself-respect.
I studied for six years at uniin engineering.
(25:54):
I worked as an engineer,absolutely despised it.
I can officially say that now.
I was getting paid really well.
But I was also proper burnt outat the point that I left.
I wasn't sleeping for four daysin a row because I was working
on site four days on, three daysoff.
So I would just come back andsleep for my entire weekend.
When I quit, I got a lot ofjudgment from people.
(26:17):
You know, you studied for solong and And maybe you just need
a break and you can go backinto it.
But for me, it was the 100% theright call.
And it's a really hard decisionto make to go, this thing is
making me miserable.
I need to go and do somethingelse.
Katherine Iscoe (26:31):
How is it related to self-respect?
So one of the components ofself-respect is the ability to
make choices that are true toyou and also to take
responsibility for whateverhappens due to those choices.
So as an example, let's say youdid leave that position and you
weren't able to pay your bills,yada, yada, yada.
Self-respect is saying I madethat choice and I have to live
(26:54):
with the consequences.
The opposite of self-respectwould be I made that choice.
Well, that's because so-and-sodidn't do what they said, yada,
yada, yada, yada.
So that's a connection withself-respect.
Kate Kirwin (27:07):
So I wanted to talk about burnout.
You've been pretty open aboutyour experience of going through
burnout.
Yeah.
I haven't so much, but I wentthrough it a couple of years
ago.
And my story was a whole heapof personal changes in my life.
I just ended a nine-yearrelationship, had moved back
home.
I took on a lot moreresponsibilities at work.
(27:28):
I was traveling for workextensively.
And then I got COVID for thefirst time.
It's literally not anexaggeration to say I couldn't
stand up in the shower.
And people look at me like,what do you mean?
You're like 30 and young andhealthy.
That's Everything else in mybody just being like, Kate, you
need to rest.
This is crazy.
(27:49):
We can't keep doing thisanymore.
And I think that took me maybethree months to feel like a
regular human again.
The other women in this roomcan...
I have a lot to owe them abouthow they helped me through that
experience.
I'd love to hear what yourexperience was like and how did
you get through your burnout?
Katherine Iscoe (28:08):
This was about two years ago now.
And my friends and, you know,colleagues, people in my office
were saying, like, you justdon't seem like yourself lately.
You know, you're not yourweird, quirky self.
And I sort of brushed it offlike we got stuff to do.
High Achiever.
High Achiever.
High Achiever.
Right.
You know, people please.
I can't take time off.
Like, you know, I'll be late.
(28:29):
So eventually one of them said,why don't you just go talk to
someone like a psychologist anddo one session.
See if you find out anythingthat can help you sort of guide
yourself through this.
Went to a psychologist andwithin 15 minutes she said, Kat,
you're burnt out.
I'm like, no, I'm not.
I'm a mindset expert.
(28:50):
I don't get burnout, like, youknow, shields, you know, armour.
And eventually she said, you'regoing to have to take some time
off.
And I said, well, how much timeoff?
And I kid you not, she went,you know, when they, you know,
she said, probably about amonth.
I said, yeah, nah.
And I bargained her down to,I'll take the rest of the
(29:14):
afternoon off.
So from a month to the rest ofthe afternoon.
So I go home and I'm like,okay, I'm going to do like
hashtag self-care.
I'm going to get like ajournal, you know, from Kmart
and the pretty gold pen and, youknow, make a cup of tea and
like, you know, do the Instagramphoto, like hashtag self-care.
Kate Kirwin (29:32):
That solves all problems, right?
Katherine Iscoe (29:33):
Of course, of course.
So I'm thinking, so I do thisexercise.
It's called the flow writingexercise.
It was validated in the 1980s.
Basically, it's like openingtaps, right?
You have a prompt question.
So in my case, it was, how doesit feel to be you right now?
You set a timer for fiveminutes and you just write.
You don't scratch anything out.
(29:54):
You don't have to have perfectgrammar.
You know, you just let it rip.
And I was thinking, you know,the clouds were going to open up
and like this light was goingto shine down on the piece of
paper and like, oh, here's youranswer.
And you can go back to work.
And that's it.
Whereas reality, what happenedis like the most profane writing
(30:14):
of my entire life.
I gripped the pen like aNeanderthal and was scratching
it like F you, F you.
And like just the amount ofanger and rage that came out on
that paper was certainly notCanadian by any means.
And I remember the timersounded and I threw the journal
(30:38):
down on my couch and I gave itthe double middle finger.
And I was just screaming.
I was just like I waspossessed.
Afterwards, like a couple ofdays later, I'm like, what was
that about?
And then I was like, she saidit was burnt out.
But the burnout that I read onGwyneth Paltrow's blog is, oh,
you're, you know, tired and soforth.
And I'm like, that wasn't myexperience.
(30:58):
That was definitely not myexperience.
And then it made me ask, like,well, if I've went through this,
then maybe other people have aswell.
And that's when I startedtalking to people.
And they're like, yeah, we'retired.
Of course, we're tired.
You know, we're working 60hours a week.
But that's not what bothers us.
What bothers us is we'rereally, really angry.
We're angry that we're sayingyes to things when we want to
(31:22):
say no.
The to-do list, the post-itnote list is endless.
We don't even need to go there.
But I was like, God, this is adifferent kind of burnout.
And I call it the burnouttriad.
It's anger, which I say in adifferent way.
Fuck.
Fear and the facade.
So the anger part is why have Iallowed myself to get to this
(31:43):
point of people pleasing?
The way I describe it is whenyou keep the peace, the only
thing that that does is keep thetension in your brain, which
builds up into anger.
Fear is if I take this timeoff, am I ever going to be
successful?
If I take off one month, threemonths, there goes my career.
I'm never going to be able toget ahead again.
All my competitors, maybe mybusiness is going to get taken
(32:08):
off me, you know, catastrophize,catastrophize.
And the facade is this wholeconcept of why am I complaining?
Other people have it so muchworse than me.
I can't share this.
Oh, look at me, like theprivileged person complaining
that they're feeling like reallydown and burnt out when we have
a quote unquote nice life.
(32:28):
I know I'm seeing like...
To the people listening here,everyone's like nodding around
the table like, you, you,
Kate Kirwin (32:35):
you, you.
And Jo is giving me the mostpointed looks.
Every time you say anything,she's like, Kate, are we
listening?
Katherine Iscoe (32:44):
And so that was my experience.
And I thought to me it was themost relieving thing because I
don't know about you, but Inever hear, especially women,
talking about anger.
Speaker 03 (32:57):
Because
Katherine Iscoe (32:58):
I think we need to be these martyrs like, oh,
she's so nice.
Oh, my God, she's like sosuccessful.
But oh, my God, she's so nice.
And she's so helpful.
I did the valley girl accentfor you there.
But you know what I mean?
Like nailed it, nailed it,nailed it.
But you never hear like, God,wow, she really lost the plot.
We just don't talk about anger.
And I just don't know why.
(33:19):
Because I think that's such acritical component of burnout.
And if we could just Solve thata little bit.
I think we'd have lower levelsof burnout.
Southern accent.
I don't know where they'recoming from.
Kate Kirwin (33:33):
I love it.
We've had such a wild ride.
And before we started this showtoday, Kat was giving us her
attempt of an Australian accent,which we won't force you to do
on mic.
I think that would be unfair.
Oh,
Jo Minney (33:44):
hey,
Kate Kirwin (33:44):
it's
Jo Minney (33:44):
getting
Kate Kirwin (33:45):
better.
Yes, you nailed
Jo Minney (33:46):
it.
Kate Kirwin (33:46):
so good.
For me, and I think why Jo wasgiving me a lot of these pointed
looks while you were talking,in that period of burnout where
I felt like I was recovering, Iwas still saying yes to so many
things that I knew I should havesaid no to.
One of the moments I was withmy boss talking about everything
that I had coming up in thenext period of time and I just
started like ugly crying.
(34:07):
He was like, but Why do we needto do that now, Kate?
Could we not just do that inlike two weeks?
Like, does it have to be today?
And I'm like, yes, it has to betoday.
Why?
It can't be any other day thantoday.
And he's like, but who cares?
Does it diminish any of thevalue of the work we're doing if
we're not doing it today?
I'm like, but I'm lettingpeople down and people are going
(34:29):
to feel bad and they're notgoing to be able to start their
coding journey because I can'tdo it.
And that would be the worstthing ever.
And he literally sent me homeand was like, you need to go
just sit down for two weeks andcome back when you stop crying.
But yeah, it was that, I thinka lot of that people pleasing of
like, I can't possibly take abreak or stop or...
have a more realistic schedulebecause I can do this.
(34:53):
I've been doing this for a longtime.
It's only another little bitmore pushing.
I can just keep pushing.
Katherine Iscoe (34:58):
That's your high achiever.
So your high achiever issaying, we have to push forward.
We have to grow.
We have to, you know, buildthis.
And then the people pleaser issaying, yeah, but we can't let
her like people down.
But then the high achiever islike, well, but you know, it's
just this fight that happens inour head and drains our energy.
Jo Minney (35:18):
Yeah.
What's your best peoplepleasing story?
What's the thing that for youis your ultimate people pleasing
story?
Katherine Iscoe (35:27):
How many stories do I have?
I think the one that might hithome.
So this was during my master'sdegree.
And this is a time that I wasin that very dark period of my
life, you know, at the bowels ofmy eating disorder.
It was just horrendous.
I was having an affair withsomeone like and that just took
(35:47):
every inch of self-worth anddignity out of my soul.
And I just felt like I didn'tbelong there.
I felt like I was stupidbecause everyone, you know,
biochemistry, like we're talkinghighly, highly intelligent
people in the area of science.
Every Friday we would have ajournal presentation or
presentations.
People would, you know, showtheir research.
(36:08):
And I remember this guy,Sergio, was presenting.
I'm like, I'm going to ask areally important question, like
a smart person question.
You know, like when you're at aconference and someone raises
their hand, you're like, wow,that person must be smart.
I don't understand what they'resaying.
So I'm like, I'm going to askone of those questions because I
wanted everyone to validate me.
And in my head, I thought,well, I'm going to ask this
(36:28):
question and it's going to belike in the movies where
everyone turns and they slowlystand up and they clap.
You know, like, wow, she is sosmart.
Like, validation,people-pleasing, when in reality
what happened is I asked aquestion and it was like time
just stopped.
Everyone just looked at melike, what are you talking
(36:50):
about?
And I remember my supervisorlooked at me and he just started
shaking his head.
And then it got worse.
He actually turned back to thefront, crossed his legs slowly
and put his head in his hand andjust kept on shaking his head.
It was the worst moment of mylife.
But the point of this is, is Iwas so worried about pleasing
everyone else.
(37:10):
It's like, hey, wow, look atme.
I'm so smart.
Like, you know, I want to beone of you.
Accept me into the likedoctrine of academic and this
field of STEM.
And to this day, I'll alwaysremember that.
Never ask a question to provethat you deserve to be there.
Ask a question because you wantto know the answer.
(37:31):
Big difference.
Jo Minney (37:32):
Wow.
I wish more people who went tothe conferences I go to had
heard that advice.
Mm-hmm.
One of the things we like toask all of our guests is what's
the next step in your journeyand how can we help you get
there?
So who were you looking toconnect with?
And is there anything that wecan ask our raft to help you
with?
Katherine Iscoe (37:53):
I have recently created what I think is my best
keynote speech ever because itis 100% me in the sense of
storytelling and quirkiness andentertainment.
And I recently did it and I gotapplause after 90 seconds.
My high achiever was...
Absolutely so happy.
As a keynote speaker, you don'tever think your speech is good
(38:17):
enough to get on big stages.
But I'm actually now at thepoint where I'm like, people,
please be gone.
I'm actually really proud ofthis.
And I think it really can makea difference.
So my request is to get onbigger stages and in the world
conference organizers, anything,anything that would allow me to
wear my best shoes and sparkleon stage.
Jo Minney (38:36):
All right, Raft, our goal is to get Dr.
Katherine Iscoe onto the TEDstage.
So if anyone's got connections,
Kate Kirwin (38:44):
let's make this happen.
Is there anyone missing fromyour raft or anyone else that
you want to connect with?
Katherine Iscoe (38:49):
Oh, all right.
A few years ago, I started thisseries called In Her Shoes.
Jo Minney (38:54):
Excellent.
Katherine Iscoe (38:55):
Yeah, it was a series that I piloted.
It's shoes, stories andsensational women.
And it was interviewingincredible women, but it was
really their struggles behindtheir success.
And we would do this while shoeshopping.
In the past couple of months,I've really been toying about
the idea of trying to get itback out there.
(39:15):
Obviously, you know, it costs afew bucks to do this.
So I've actually put my feelersout for directors, producers.
to try to get this back up andrunning again.
It's actually a very profitablebusiness proposition.
And the benefit of this is thatwe would try to get this into
schools.
Because I think having a16-year-old girl watch these
(39:38):
incredible women and actuallythe stories underneath their
success.
So when they do get out intothe work and they say, oh, wow,
there's a female CEO.
She must have had it so easy.
She must be super smart.
She must have yada, yada, yada.
This is long.
Imagine a 16-year-old girllistening to story where
actually I didn't finish highschool and I was on the streets
(39:59):
you know there's many stories ofthis imagine that girl seeing
that and saying Ashley you knowwhat yeah I can code I can be
CEO I can be an engineer or Ican be a fashion designer what
doesn't matter what they want tobe allowing them to see that
inspiration so they can forgetheir own path that's why I want
to get the inner issues seriesup up and running
Jo Minney (40:20):
I love that.
Katherine Iscoe (40:22):
Okay, so producers and...
Producers, directors, anyonereally in the entertainment
industry.
field.
So my feelers are out.
Kate Kirwin (40:31):
And where can people connect with you and find
you?
Where are you on the internet?
Katherine Iscoe (40:35):
Yeah, website drkatherine.com.
That's I'm sure you'll have itin the link.
And the other part would beInstagram.
So benefit of that is you seeshort 60 second videos that
might just help you change yourmindset for the day.
So I do everything from skits,high achieving people pleasing
skits to just stories and posts.
And I just love Yeah, I reallylove it.
(40:56):
I love that little communitythat we've built.
They're pretty funny.
Yeah, thanks.
Kate Kirwin (41:01):
They are.
They're hilarious.
There's some real gold inthere.
So definitely if you've enjoyedlistening to Dr.
Katherine today, check her outon
Jo Minney (41:08):
Instagram.
Excellent.
And don't forget to go on toDr.
Katherine's website and takethe self-respect quiz and find
out which phase you are in.
Unfortunately, we are onceagain utterly out of time.
That's right.
But if you have an epicpeople-pleasing story, we'd love
to hear from you.
And where can people reach us,Jo?
(41:30):
We are on Instagram at RaftPodcast, or you can email hello
at raftpodcast.com.
Kate Kirwin (41:37):
And for previous episodes or to find out more,
don't forget to check out ourwebsite, raftpodcast.com, or
find us wherever you downloadpodcasts.
Thanks for listening, Rafters.
Catch you
Jo Minney (41:48):
next time.
Katherine Iscoe (42:09):
The feelers have been starteth, but we can
continueth
Kate Kirwin (42:15):
with the rafteth.
I love it.
You've gone Shakespearean toend this
Katherine Iscoe (42:19):
podcast.
A lot of accents today.
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