October 7, 2024 • 35 mins
Kate is an unapologetic feminist. She is the Founder and CEO of She Codes Australia, on a mission to inspire 100,000 women across the country to enter tech careers.
Kate’s work is closing the gender gap in tech, where only 30 per cent of employees are women. Her achievements have been recognised with the Business News 40 Under 40 Award and a Women in Digital Champion of Change award. She was recently named as WA's 2024 Young Australian of the Year.
Join us as we discuss the challenges faced by women entering the tech industry, and how we can be part of the solution.
Kate is on a mission to impact 100,000 women by 2025.
If you or your organisation is interested in meaningfully moving the needle for diversity, partner with one of Australia’s most loved women-in-tech brands, and attract incredible talent for your tech team at the same time - get in touch.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Ricki Barnes (00:00):
For centuries we've been told that women are
each other's worst enemies, butin reality we're more like
otters than queen bees.
(00:20):
Female otters, bitches if youwill, join hands with each other
to create rafts that stop themfrom drifting apart and losing
each other while they're asleep.
Thriving women have one thingin common.
They have a tight-knit circleof other women who help them get
there by providing informationand support.
Join us each episode as weshine a light on an amazing
woman and give her a platform toshare with us her story, her
(00:43):
passion and the raft of bitchessupporting her.
Jo Minney (00:46):
Welcome to the Raft of Bitches podcast.
I'm here today with my co-host,Ricki Barnes.
And when we first startedplanning out this podcast, we
discussed introducing each otherwith a fun fact.
So Ricki, would you like tohear my fun fact about you?
I
Ricki Barnes (01:01):
would love to hear it.
Ricki's pet peeve is the ageismof dinosaur clothing.
100%.
So ageist.
My fun fact about you, Jo, isthat you're obsessed with
pockets to the point that youhave a blog on your own website
that will teach people how tosew pockets into their own
clothing.
It
Jo Minney (01:20):
is the most important life skill that my mum ever
taught me.
Ricki Barnes (01:23):
And joining us today as our very first guest,
we have Kate Kirwin.
So as you'll be aware andyou'll become more aware of in
the coming weeks, Kate isactually our co-host.
We thought it was a good placeto start because Kate is
actually a very prominent womanin tech in Perth and that is the
topic of this
Jo Minney (01:40):
episode.
Absolutely.
So Kate's given us her littlebio and I just love reading it
out because she's so impressive.
And I'm like, I don't know ifyou know this or not, but I'm
actually best friends with theWA Young Australian of the Year.
So Kate is an unapologeticfeminist.
She's also the founder and theCEO of She Codes Australia, if
you aren't already familiar withthe Kate Kirwin.
And Kate is on a mission toinspire 100,000 women across the
(02:05):
country to enter tech careers.
Ricki Barnes (02:07):
Kate's work is closing the gender gap in tech,
where only 30% of employees arewomen.
Her achievements have beenrecognised with the Business
News 40 Under 40 Award and aWomen in Digital Champion of
Change Award.
She was named as WA's 2024Young Australian of the Year.
Jo Minney (02:23):
Welcome, Kate, to the first episode of the Raft of
Bitches podcast.
Are you nervous?
Kate Kirwin (02:29):
I'm really excited to be here.
So we've been talking aboutdoing this podcast, I think, for
about four years.
So it's really exciting thatwe're here today.
actually happening, finallyhappening.
I
Ricki Barnes (02:39):
know.
Jo Minney (02:40):
I do really enjoy, though, that the very first
discussion we had about thepodcast was actually just us
narrating cat videos off of theinternet.
So it's come a little bit of away since then, but I think it's
still a good place to startwith a bit of an icebreaker.
So what is your favourite thingthat you have seen on the
internet most recently,
Kate Kirwin (02:57):
Kate?
I love watching an Instagramreel.
I've been really obsessed withwatching some Taylor Swift
content lately.
So much hype and Swifties are alittle bit crazy in the most
wholesome way possible.
Ricki Barnes (03:10):
Love it.
Usually in this part, we wouldask our guest who's in their
raft, but as this is the firstepisode, we thought we'd better
go a little bit deeper into whatan actual raft is.
Jo Minney (03:18):
That sounds like a great idea.
So Kate, I have three questionsfor you.
What is a raft?
What makes a good rafter?
And how did you end up in thisparticular raft?
Kate Kirwin (03:29):
The whole concept behind the Raft of Bitches
started a few years ago based onthis idea of otters that hold
hands when they're fallingasleep so no one floats away
from the raft.
The idea is women supportingother women, making sure that we
all stay afloat and supportingus in every way, shape and form.
I feel very lucky to considerthe two of you as part of my
(03:52):
raft.
And what does that actuallylook like on a day-to-day basis
we have a group chat and it'severything from brainstorming an
issue to solving a problem atwork to ranting sometimes
venting definitely ventingventing and then trying to
propel each other forward aswell so it is the place that I
(04:13):
come to for support inspirationmaking decisions and keeping
keeping a bit of sparkle in theday as well we add to your
sparkle I
Jo Minney (04:26):
love it.
Yeah.
You mentioned before when wewere talking about this earlier,
Kate, that one of the bestthings about having Ricki in the
raft is that when you need tobe convinced of something, she
will just ask you what way youwant to be convinced.
And it honestly, if you canfind someone like that in your
raft, I highly recommend it.
Kate Kirwin (04:43):
Yeah.
Just the idea of do you needconvincing in or out of a
certain thing?
Asking more questions beforeyou jump in with a solution.
I think that we can all learnsomething from that.
I really appreciate that aboutRicki.
And I really love from you, Jo,your fearless support.
I do feel like you're acheerleader in the background.
(05:04):
I think when you're thinkingabout people to be in your raft,
it's a little bit of asimilarity and a common thread,
but you also want differentopinions, different energy, so
that you're complementing thebits that you maybe need to fill
so that we're, you know, onewhole person.
Ricki Barnes (05:23):
What makes a good rafter?
Obviously those things you'vementioned.
What elevates someone abovebeing, you know, just a friend?
Kate Kirwin (05:30):
Yeah, I think that it's a lot about selflessness,
right?
I'm really genuinely wantingthe other person to succeed.
So it's not a transactionalrelationship.
It's not what can you give me?
It's giving back as much as youtake.
And that level of deep trustthat we have in each other, I
(05:51):
think that's what makes itreally special.
And I think that's one of thesuperpowers that women have in
the relationships that theybuild, particularly with other
women, is that level of trustand companionship.
We're not here to compete.
We're all here to achieve thesame things in different ways.
Ricki Barnes (06:08):
Who else is in your raft?
I like to think of the OG raft,but we all know it extends
beyond that.
Who else is in your raft?
Kate Kirwin (06:14):
I have so many people that I would consider
part of my various rafts.
We have a second raft that wecall the Raft of Chaos, which
are my more chaotic friends.
Jo Minney (06:27):
I'm very honoured to actually be in both of those
Ricki Barnes (06:31):
I'm not.
I'm at home with a book.
Kate Kirwin (06:33):
Jo can on occasion be a little bit chaos.
We love that about her.
I think we all need a Tracy inour lives.
And if you've not met TracyRothery, she is the fearless
cheerleader that is the mostexcited golden retriever of a
woman that I've ever met.
And I met her through She Codesand through the Women in Tech
(06:55):
community.
So really grateful to have herburst of energy in my life.
And there's so many more peoplethat we could honestly do a
whole podcast on just who elseis in my raft.
We could be here all day.
Yeah.
Jo Minney (07:08):
Unfortunately, we don't have all day, but you've
kind of also built a giganticraft.
And that's actually how allthree of us, I think, met was
through what is now calledShe Codes, but formerly was
known as Perth Web Girls.
My question to you, Kate, youstarted She Codes back in 2015.
(07:29):
Before any of us had met, wasthere something in particular
that happened in your life tospur you to start running coding
and cupcakes workshops backthen?
there.
Kate Kirwin (07:39):
Yeah, so contrary to popular belief, I have no
experience before this in techor entrepreneurship.
My experience was in events andI was working for a co-working
space.
I just got really curious and Iwanted to learn what people in
the community were doing andwent along to a bunch of tech
(08:00):
events to try and teach myself.
And I found very quickly thatthere was a point where I got
stuck and asking for help wasreally hard.
Online communities can be a Hitand miss.
A lot of miss.
A lot of miss.
Really unhelpful sometimes.
The in-person meetups weresuper technical.
(08:20):
Lots of acronyms.
I remember one day that Iwalked in and I was in this
bright green dress and theseshoes that were really loud on
the concrete floor.
And every single person turnedand stared at me.
And I knew half of them and Istill wanted to die.
It was such an uncomfortableexperience.
because I was the only woman inthe room.
(08:41):
Imagine if I didn't know anyoneand that was my first time
coming to an event like that.
I wouldn't come back.
So lots of these kinds ofthings were happening and I was
working with a really amazingguy in the community who wanted
to do an event for women.
We partnered on the first one.
He ended up moving overseas.
(09:01):
Then from there it The rest iskind of history.
So the community was superpassionate and excited.
We sold out the first event.
Then we did another one.
We had a waiting list ofhundreds of women.
So we kept doing
Ricki Barnes (09:16):
more.
The She Codes story, I think,really breaks down a common
misconception about women intech, which is that if they
wanted to be there, they wouldbe there.
They would look for jobs.
They would pursue it.
The reason there aren't morewomen is because they're just
not interested.
What are some of the othercommon misconceptions about
women in tech or about the techindustry?
Kate Kirwin (09:35):
Yeah, so the most common thing, when I say tech,
you think of a guy in a hoodiein a basement.
I think about 90% of peoplewhen I say that word, that's
what they think.
They think that you have to besuper smart.
You have to be a nerd.
You have to be good at math.
You have to be a logic person,not a creative person.
(09:56):
I actually think tech is socreative.
You're solving problems allday.
What's more creative than that?
Those are some of the thingsthat I hear.
And some of the barriers forwomen are there's a lack of
female role models.
And we're still telling youngwomen things like you're too fun
(10:17):
to be in tech there's no jobsecurity in tech you should do
something more suitable forwomen like accounting or nursing
not that they're bad careersbut why are we not pushing women
towards tech and activelysteering them in other
directions
Jo Minney (10:36):
One of the statistics that you mentioned, Kate, in a
lot of the presentations andthings that you give, for
example, at the start of theworkshops is around how many
jobs we need to fill in tech andthe fact that very soon almost
every industry, every job isgoing to require some kind of
technical skills.
So it seems absurd that wewould tell people not to learn
(11:00):
something that they're literallygoing to need to get by.
What is that statistic and whyis it important?
Kate Kirwin (11:05):
Pre-COVID, it is we needed 200,000 more people in
tech in the next five years.
Post-COVID, that's now amillion.
So that's quite a lot of peoplejust in Australia working in
tech and tech-related roles.
90% of Australians are going toneed to upskill or reskill in
emerging technologies in thenext five years, things like AI,
(11:27):
advanced data science.
There's a lot of changehappening and there's a lot of
fear out there for people who'vebeen listening to all of this.
I'm not smart enough.
I'm not nerdy enough.
I don't know how I fit intothis.
That's causing a lot of fear.
So we need to change thatnarrative so that we can fix
both a skills gap as well aswe've got an economic gap.
(11:50):
By fixing gender diversity intech, it could add $1.6 billion
a year into the The economicconditions we're in at the
moment, imagine what another$1.6 billion a year could add to
our country.
So I'm
Ricki Barnes (12:07):
going to take a bit of a pivot now and just
let's talk about She Codes alittle bit more, I guess, for
its current status.
So is there anything excitingthat's been happening for
She Codes recently?
Kate Kirwin (12:18):
Yeah.
So 2024 has been a huge year sofar.
We spun out into a new entity.
So we've been part ofSpacecubed for the last nine
years, which is co-working spacein Western Australia.
I've gone out into a newbusiness, which is really
exciting.
So I'm aligned more with thevision of where we're going and
(12:42):
really setting us up for growth.
So our crazy ambitious targetis to impact 100,000 women by
2025.
And I'm super aware that we'rein 2024 right now.
So that's not a lot of time anda long way to go.
So setting up for that successthrough this spin out.
We're also So running programsthis year in Perth and Brisbane
(13:04):
for women who want to learn howto code.
I think we mentioned at thestart, I've won a few awards
lately, which is still verysurreal.
I was named the WA YoungAustralian of the Year at the
end of last year and had theopportunity to go to Canberra as
part of Australian of the Yearand meet the Governor General,
(13:24):
meet the Prime Minister.
More importantly, meet all ofthe other Australian of the Year
nominees from all the otherstates and territories and
listen to their passions andtheir journeys.
And we might be hearing from acouple of those people in this
podcast series.
So I'm really excited theopportunity that gives for
telling the story of what we doand getting out to a broader
(13:46):
audience of talking to olderwomen, talking to young emerging
talent and really rebrandingtech as you don't have to be a
guy in a hoodie in a You can befeminine.
You can be whoever you want tobe and still find a role in
technology.
Jo Minney (14:06):
So we've talked about she codes and you run one day
workshops with cupcakes.
But along with that, a fewyears back, you decided rather
than just having this be a oneday thing, your sort of long
term goal was always to have itbe a cycle so that people could
progress through actuallyworking in the industry and then
coming back to mentor at theseone day workshops and to start
(14:29):
that whole cycle again.
So can you tell us a little bitabout the Plus program and why
it's different?
Why is it different from justgoing and studying computer
engineering at university?
What's different about Plusversus everything else?
Kate Kirwin (14:43):
I'm really proud of what we do with She Codes Plus.
It was a conversation thathappened over a couple of years
with our program partners whowere excited.
This is really great, but howdo I get someone I can hire into
my team in the next six to 12months rather than waiting for
two to five years through otherforms of education?
And what we created wassomething that really works for
(15:06):
women.
It's designed by women forwomen.
So it's part time.
It's outside of business hours.
So women can still work whilestudying and career change more
smoothly than quitting their joband investing a lot of time and
money into something.
And really focusing on womensupporting women.
(15:27):
So we have a stand up everyweek.
We are meaningfully sharingthings in class and having, I
guess, an extended raft of theother 20 women in the cohort who
have those lifelong bonds andfriendships post-program, as
well as being taught byindustry.
Our lecturers, I guess youcould call them, we call them
(15:50):
lead mentors and mentors are allpeople who are from industry,
who work in technical roles atvarious companies and they come
and teach for us and they cantell us both content, but also
this is how I code in my job andthese are some of the tools
that I use and this is what itlooks like in the real world.
I'm pretty excited that we'venow done over 10 cohorts and
(16:13):
we've had 250 women do the Plusprogram across Perth, Brisbane,
Sydney and we did one in PortHedland in the far north of
Western Australia.
The model is pretty cool.
So we work with businesses tofund places in the program and
they then get an upskillingopportunity for their own staff
(16:33):
as well as a recruitmentpipeline for new women who want
to join their business and canmeaningfully move that needle a
little bit faster by gettingactual women jobs in tech rather
than just talking about it.
How are we actually moving theneedle?
So 86% have got jobs in tech,usually within the first three
(16:54):
months post-program.
And it's so incredible for meseeing my women succeeding.
So we've got people like Joy,who was a mother from Toowoomba
in regional Queensland who's nowworking on a beach in Thailand
and travelling the world whilepushing code from wherever she
is.
We've got Maria who changedfrom a travel role during COVID
(17:18):
which was obviously quite anuncertain place to be.
She's now working for aresources company, was able to
buy a house, it's kind ofchanged her financial situation
and moved out of a potentiallyrisky industry over the last few
years, it's seeing things likethat and people being able to,
(17:38):
yeah, believe that anything'spossible.
Amazing.
And how is Plus going?
Are there plans?
There's plans.
The plan is to do anotherprogram a little bit later in
the year in Perth and Brisbaneagain, building out the
community there and do want tobe looking on a national scale
(17:59):
again over the next couple ofyears, just getting the right
partners on board to, to makethat possible.
But yeah, I keep being told ifwomen wanted to be in tech, they
just would be.
And that's completely crazy.
There are so many women whowant to do this.
It's role models, it'sopportunity and really investing
in women that pays off in thelong term.
Ricki Barnes (18:19):
So why do you think this, I guess, grassroots
sort of approach that you'veadopted is so successful?
Kate Kirwin (18:24):
At the heart of what we do, it's community.
That's so important.
When we're trying to createchange, having a community at
the heart of it just makeseverything a little bit easier.
Having that trust, therelationship building, trying to
solve that problem that I wasfinding right at the beginning
of who do you ask for help?
When things are really hard,having a community around you
(18:45):
makes things so much easier.
I've got amazing champions inthe community who love what we
do and are able to kind of sharethat message because it is
really...
We coined a term a couple ofyears ago called the cupcake
effect, which I love talkingabout at every possible moment.
(19:06):
And the cupcake effect is howsomething makes you feel.
We spent a lot of time on thecupcake effect and making sure
that everything we do feelsright.
warm and safe.
Intentional.
Intentional as well.
So we serve cupcakes.
If you've spent even fiveminutes on our website or
(19:26):
socials, you probably would knowthat.
But the cupcake is more thanjust functional food.
It's not just we put on lunchbecause you need to eat.
It's something a little bitspecial.
It's got the glitter and thesparkle.
You can take a photo of it forInstagram.
It feels like you're part ofsomething bigger.
And the cupcake effect is howHow we do that on a broader
(19:48):
scale.
So it's cultivating the musicchoices.
It's having name badges withmeaningful information on them.
It's the way something makesyou look and feel that you're
part of something bigger thanjust you and that it is
personalized for you and makingsure people have a really safe,
fun experience is so critical.
Jo Minney (20:09):
So I studied metallurgical engineering at
university.
That sounds like a sausagefest.
You'll all be very shocked toknow that I was the only girl to
graduate in my year.
I have to say, not only did itnot feel intentional that I was
there, it often felt intentionalagainst me.
My best friend that I wentthrough uni with before I met
(20:33):
y'all and she left and went toBrisbane and then did She Codes
Plus last year, which is just anamazing story I love that when
she was at uni Maya studied inanother male-dominated industry
and there were no female toiletsin her building and so she had
to leave the building where shewas meant to be studying to go
(20:54):
to the toilet and if that's notintentionally making someone
feel excluded when they're meantto be learning.
It's the literal opposite ofthe cupcake effect.
So I think what you're doing,Kate, in terms of building that
community where people don'tjust feel welcome, but feel like
it's made for them because itis, that's so
Kate Kirwin (21:13):
important.
That doesn't shock me, to behonest, because I've heard so
many stories like that.
I've heard stories on minesites that have been similar
because they were the firstwoman working on the team.
And I've also heard I've heardstories from an education
context where someone wasenrolled in a software
(21:33):
development course and herlecturer asked her multiple
times, are you sure you're inthe right room?
Are you sure you signed up forthe right program?
Yeah,
Ricki Barnes (21:43):
I know how to read, thank you.
And I know what I signed upfor.
Kate Kirwin (21:46):
Yeah, and are you sure you're not just copying off
the boys?
She was asked that as well.
So it's unsurprising to me thatshe dropped out because why
wouldn't you?
If every week you've got tojustify your existence, you're
not going to feel like this isthe place for me to survive and
thrive.
It's not a
Ricki Barnes (22:03):
welcoming environment.
What motivates you to keeppushing forward?
It's a big ask.
You know, you're obviouslygetting traction.
There's a lot of women thatyou're literally changing their
lives.
What motivates you to keeppushing up against all these
things like women being toldthey're too fun or they're in
the wrong industry or all ofthat kind of stuff?
Kate Kirwin (22:21):
For me, it's a couple of things.
Number one, for me, it's aboutpeople.
So hearing the stories from myalumni and seeing them succeed
in the things that they're doingfills me with so much joy.
And I was talking about thisrecently.
I've had some stories of peoplewho've ended up in tech from a
(22:42):
one-day workshop who haven'temailed me because they were
like, oh, but I just didn't wantto bother you.
I'm like, no, no, no, no, no,no, no, no.
That's what I want to know.
If my entire inbox was justfull of people telling me their
stories, what a great day.
Hearing those stories of peoplesucceeding is the most
important thing.
And then I'm really passionateabout how do we actually make a
(23:04):
difference.
There's so much research aboutthe economic impact of diversity
on a country level, but also onan organization level or
product level.
We can be building betterproducts.
We can be making betterdecisions.
We've got limited resources andlimited time on this earth so
how do we build better stuffthat actually fixes problems and
(23:29):
if we can close the gender paygap at the same time what a win
for everyone involved.
There's so many economicreasons for me to do what I do
and then hearing the actualstories from people on the
ground that have been part of itand building out that raft so
that we're keeping everyoneafloat.
We're two for she codes fromhere.
Yeah.
So our crazy target is 100,000women by 2025.
(23:52):
How many have you got left?
Our impact is about 30,000 sofar, so we're about a third of
the way there.
Got a little bit more work todo in the next 18 months to get
us to that number and reallyexcited for how we use this
platform to be able to impactmore lives.
For me personally, it's reallyabout reshaping that perception
(24:16):
that we have of who belongs intech, making sure that every
girl out there feels like that'ssomething that I could do and
it's not impossible and it'sachievable.
So what do you need to getthere?
There's a couple of ways thatyou can help.
The first is if you'reinterested in working with us on
(24:38):
moving the needle tangibly,we're looking for businesses to
partner with from a financialpoint of view, but also for
brand reach and sharing thatmessage a bit broader.
Reach out to us atshecodes.com.au of how your
organisation can partner withone of the most loved women in
tech brands in the country.
I think I'm allowed to saythat, but also get really great
(25:00):
tech talent at the same time andknow that you're part of
something that is changing thenarrative for women in tech.
So we're looking forpartnerships.
If you can follow us onsocials, we are She Codes
Australia or She Codes Aus onevery platform.
And if you are in tech andyou're a woman, I would love to
hear from you.
So what's your experience hasbeen to date and how can I help
(25:23):
you uplift your profile in theindustry you work in?
Jo Minney (25:28):
Other than partnering for fun What could people talk
about?
What could people do?
Is there anything else that youwould encourage people to talk
to their rafts about to helpwith the goal that She Codes
Australia is trying to achieve?
Kate Kirwin (25:43):
Yeah, I would love to see discussions about tech to
be discussed.
more of a dinner tableconversation.
So having a conversation withthe people in your life about,
you know, what are theopportunities that exist and how
can I be a part of that andjust trying it.
We say at our one dayworkshops, I don't actually care
if you get to the end of theday and you're like, I hate it
(26:06):
and I never want to do it againbecause at least you tried it
and you know that you don't wantto be in tech because you don't
want to be in tech, not becausesociety has told you that you
can't or you shouldn't.
Just having have a play with anonline tutorial, test out your
skills.
And I just want you to prove toyourself that actually maybe
(26:26):
you are smart enough to do this.
So I would really encourageeveryone just to give it a go
through me or through anyoneelse, not precious about it.
I'm a strong believer incollaboration, not competition.
We're all trying to achieve thesame thing.
So working together is betterthan trying to all separately do
(26:47):
the same thing.
It
So does She Codes have a raft?
So we work a lot with Women in Tech WA, WITWA for
short.
I've been part of theorganisation team, but also part
of the community for a coupleof years.
So I'd love to share the Raftof Bitches story with the WITWA
community, maybe at the nextconference.
Jo Minney (27:09):
Raft of Bitches panel at the conference, to get that
out there into the cosmos.
Kate Kirwin (27:14):
That's manifested.
Yeah, big fan of manifesting.
Tracy taught me that, the powerof manifesting.
of manifesting.
There's a whole heap of otherorganizations that are doing
really, really cool work,partnering with a whole heap of
different people, doing someyouth stuff.
We've done some things in thepast with Purposeful.
We're doing some stuff thisyear about coding for young
(27:37):
people, about drones, all kindsof different pieces.
I can't reveal too much justyet because it's still in
progress.
But I think what makes mereally excited is people who are
aligned on the same mission.
So our corporate partners areamazing.
We've been working with RioTinto, Bank West, BHP, City of
(28:01):
Perth.
There's a whole heap oforganisations that are really
looking at how we move theneedle.
Excited to work with them aswell as with these non-financial
partners like WiTWA who justamplify and extend like a good
raft should.
Jo Minney (28:16):
You mentioned about youth and sort of getting more
involved.
Do you find that the people whocome along to the workshops are
predominantly sort of theyounger generation that maybe
feel like tech is a little bitmore accessible?
Kate Kirwin (28:30):
So I think that's really interesting because there
is a myth that you have to beyoung to be in tech.
I've actually had quite a fewpeople put in their application
forms the She Codes programs.
I think I'm too old.
I'm 30.
Ricki Barnes (28:46):
Holy shit, I should be in a nursing home.
Kate Kirwin (28:49):
Right?
There's this idea that you haveto be like 18 and have grown up
with a touchscreen to be intech.
Most of our community are 25 to50, mostly women in their 30s
would be the bulk of ourcommunity.
Our one day workshop serieswe've had from ages five through
(29:09):
to 80 before.
And a couple of times now,actually, we've had three
generations of the same familycoding together.
And I think that's reallybeautiful.
Watching a high school, primaryschool aged girl with her mom
and then her grandma's there aswell.
They can all solve differentpieces of the puzzle because
(29:32):
they've all got differentstrengths and different ways
their brain works.
and different pieces of logicthat they've been exposed to
over the course of their careersand lives.
So I think that's really cool.
The long tail reach of that, ifyou can be sitting at the
dinner table talking about thecode you've done and spurring
each other on, that's almostlike a little mini raft within a
(29:54):
family unit of pushing eachother forward in their coding
journey.
So I love to see more of that.
I was actually talking tosomeone recently who heard me on
the radio and she's sent it outto her granddaughters to get a
couple of them to come along tothe workshop.
Jo Minney (30:12):
Yeah, and I think it's also really important to
have the different demographicsworking in the industry,
especially when one of thethings that's so important in
our industry is aboutaccessibility and making sure
that technology is able to beused by everyone.
If we've only got one verynarrow age group that's building
all of the technology thatwe're using, then it's not going
to be built for everybody.
(30:34):
It's going to be built for thatage group.
Ricki Barnes (30:36):
Yeah, it comes back to diversity within the
industry, like gender, race,age, all of those those things
ability if you don't haveblended teams that have a whole
different range of lifeexperiences you're not actually
going to come out with the bestproduct for the largest amount
of people
Kate Kirwin (30:52):
one of the stories I used to use a lot was about
wearable fitness trackers it wasvery evident about five years
ago which products had beendesigned with women in mind and
which hadn't because one productlooks feminine you could wear
it on your wrist and it lookslike part of your outfit.
(31:14):
But also when you're trackingyour workouts, there's things
like dance, yoga, other thingsother than just rugby, football,
running.
Walk, swim, run.
Yeah.
And if you can understand whatactivities people are doing,
your data is going to be so muchricher than just saying
(31:34):
everyone who's doing a yogaclass is out for a walk.
That's not going to give youthe metrics that you're looking
for.
That I think is a reallypowerful example of designing
with your customer in mind.
And if you've got a diverseteam that's building it,
hopefully you've got somethingthat your customers want.
Ricki Barnes (31:52):
What is the advice you've ever received?
Or even what is the best adviceyou wish you had received?
Kate Kirwin (31:59):
My best advice is that it never hurts to ask.
I think a lot of people who arereally early in their career
think that if you get told no,then that's a no forever.
A no just means a no, not rightnow.
So you and most people, if youask nicely and don't be creepy,
(32:20):
don't be weird, don't mind ifyou reach out and say, hey, can
we have a coffee or can I askyou something?
Can we talk about how you gotto where you are?
Most people are pretty generouswith their time.
And so it never hurts to ask.
Ricki Barnes (32:34):
I mean, I love that advice, but I think for a
lot of people, especially youngpeople and probably especially
women, that's going to besomething they're like, okay,
easy for you to say, Kate,you're WA's Young Australian of
the Year.
Of course people are saying yesto a coffee for you.
What's a piece of advice youwould give to people trying to
implement your advice?
Kate Kirwin (32:53):
I think if you've got a really clear value
proposition and you make itreally easy, so you're not
asking, can I have a mentoringcall once a week for the next
six months?
You're not asking somethingthat's a huge investment of
time, even an introduction tosomeone.
If you do a lot of the legworkfor them of this is the email
(33:17):
that I want you to send.
I've written the template.
You just need to top and tailit to do that for me.
Like try and make it easy forpeople and have a really clear
vision of what you want to getfrom that conversation.
I often won't say yes to coffeeif it's just, I just wanted to
pick your brains about yourstory.
Okay, but what do you actuallywant to get from that?
(33:39):
And how can I make the most ofthe 30 minutes that I have with
you?
So being really specific, beingreally clear and trying to make
it as easy as possible.
Jo Minney (33:51):
Oh, damn, that's some good advice.
Kate Kirwin (33:52):
Yeah.
Ricki Barnes (33:53):
Yeah, it is.
Kate, where can people get youif they want to get in contact?
Kate Kirwin (33:58):
I'm @the kate kirwin on Instagram and Kate
Kirwin on LinkedIn.
Otherwise, you can find us at@SheCodesAus on Twitter and
Instagram andShe Codes Australia on LinkedIn
and Facebook.
And the website isshecodes.com.au.
Jo Minney (34:15):
Unfortunately, we are otterly out of time.
Ricki Barnes (34:18):
That's right.
But if you are a woman in tech,especially a woman who has been
told that you're too fun oryou've been excluded somehow,
we'd love to hear from you.
And where can people reach us?
We're on Instagram @RaftPodcast, or you can email hello
at raftpodcast.com.
Jo Minney (34:35):
And for previous episodes or to find out more,
don't forget to check out ourwebsite, raftpodcast.com, or
find us wherever you downloadpodcasts.
Thanks for
Ricki Barnes (34:44):
listening, Rafters.
Catch you next time.
It's a bit warm?
(35:11):
You're a man, you're obviouslywarmer than the rest of us.
Jo Minney (35:17):
But you are actually legitimately warmer than the
rest
Ricki Barnes (35:19):
of us.
You are actually,scientifically speaking, you
would be legitimately warmerthan the rest of us.
On average.
We're hotter, but you'rewarmer.
Oh shit!
For centuries we've been told that women are
each other's worst enemies, butin reality we're more like
otters than queen bees.
(00:20):
Female otters, bitches if youwill, join hands with each other
to create rafts that stop themfrom drifting apart and losing
each other while they're asleep.
Thriving women have one thingin common.
They have a tight-knit circleof other women who help them get
there by providing informationand support.
Join us each episode as weshine a light on an amazing
woman and give her a platform toshare with us her story, her
(00:43):
passion and the raft of bitchessupporting her.
Jo Minney (00:46):
Welcome to the Raft of Bitches podcast.
I'm here today with my co-host,Ricki Barnes.
And when we first startedplanning out this podcast, we
discussed introducing each otherwith a fun fact.
So Ricki, would you like tohear my fun fact about you?
I
Ricki Barnes (01:01):
would love to hear it.
Ricki's pet peeve is the ageismof dinosaur clothing.
100%.
So ageist.
My fun fact about you, Jo, isthat you're obsessed with
pockets to the point that youhave a blog on your own website
that will teach people how tosew pockets into their own
clothing.
It
Jo Minney (01:20):
is the most important life skill that my mum ever
taught me.
Ricki Barnes (01:23):
And joining us today as our very first guest,
we have Kate Kirwin.
So as you'll be aware andyou'll become more aware of in
the coming weeks, Kate isactually our co-host.
We thought it was a good placeto start because Kate is
actually a very prominent womanin tech in Perth and that is the
topic of this
Jo Minney (01:40):
episode.
Absolutely.
So Kate's given us her littlebio and I just love reading it
out because she's so impressive.
And I'm like, I don't know ifyou know this or not, but I'm
actually best friends with theWA Young Australian of the Year.
So Kate is an unapologeticfeminist.
She's also the founder and theCEO of She Codes Australia, if
you aren't already familiar withthe Kate Kirwin.
And Kate is on a mission toinspire 100,000 women across the
(02:05):
country to enter tech careers.
Ricki Barnes (02:07):
Kate's work is closing the gender gap in tech,
where only 30% of employees arewomen.
Her achievements have beenrecognised with the Business
News 40 Under 40 Award and aWomen in Digital Champion of
Change Award.
She was named as WA's 2024Young Australian of the Year.
Jo Minney (02:23):
Welcome, Kate, to the first episode of the Raft of
Bitches podcast.
Are you nervous?
Kate Kirwin (02:29):
I'm really excited to be here.
So we've been talking aboutdoing this podcast, I think, for
about four years.
So it's really exciting thatwe're here today.
actually happening, finallyhappening.
I
Ricki Barnes (02:39):
know.
Jo Minney (02:40):
I do really enjoy, though, that the very first
discussion we had about thepodcast was actually just us
narrating cat videos off of theinternet.
So it's come a little bit of away since then, but I think it's
still a good place to startwith a bit of an icebreaker.
So what is your favourite thingthat you have seen on the
internet most recently,
Kate Kirwin (02:57):
Kate?
I love watching an Instagramreel.
I've been really obsessed withwatching some Taylor Swift
content lately.
So much hype and Swifties are alittle bit crazy in the most
wholesome way possible.
Ricki Barnes (03:10):
Love it.
Usually in this part, we wouldask our guest who's in their
raft, but as this is the firstepisode, we thought we'd better
go a little bit deeper into whatan actual raft is.
Jo Minney (03:18):
That sounds like a great idea.
So Kate, I have three questionsfor you.
What is a raft?
What makes a good rafter?
And how did you end up in thisparticular raft?
Kate Kirwin (03:29):
The whole concept behind the Raft of Bitches
started a few years ago based onthis idea of otters that hold
hands when they're fallingasleep so no one floats away
from the raft.
The idea is women supportingother women, making sure that we
all stay afloat and supportingus in every way, shape and form.
I feel very lucky to considerthe two of you as part of my
(03:52):
raft.
And what does that actuallylook like on a day-to-day basis
we have a group chat and it'severything from brainstorming an
issue to solving a problem atwork to ranting sometimes
venting definitely ventingventing and then trying to
propel each other forward aswell so it is the place that I
(04:13):
come to for support inspirationmaking decisions and keeping
keeping a bit of sparkle in theday as well we add to your
sparkle I
Jo Minney (04:26):
love it.
Yeah.
You mentioned before when wewere talking about this earlier,
Kate, that one of the bestthings about having Ricki in the
raft is that when you need tobe convinced of something, she
will just ask you what way youwant to be convinced.
And it honestly, if you canfind someone like that in your
raft, I highly recommend it.
Kate Kirwin (04:43):
Yeah.
Just the idea of do you needconvincing in or out of a
certain thing?
Asking more questions beforeyou jump in with a solution.
I think that we can all learnsomething from that.
I really appreciate that aboutRicki.
And I really love from you, Jo,your fearless support.
I do feel like you're acheerleader in the background.
(05:04):
I think when you're thinkingabout people to be in your raft,
it's a little bit of asimilarity and a common thread,
but you also want differentopinions, different energy, so
that you're complementing thebits that you maybe need to fill
so that we're, you know, onewhole person.
Ricki Barnes (05:23):
What makes a good rafter?
Obviously those things you'vementioned.
What elevates someone abovebeing, you know, just a friend?
Kate Kirwin (05:30):
Yeah, I think that it's a lot about selflessness,
right?
I'm really genuinely wantingthe other person to succeed.
So it's not a transactionalrelationship.
It's not what can you give me?
It's giving back as much as youtake.
And that level of deep trustthat we have in each other, I
(05:51):
think that's what makes itreally special.
And I think that's one of thesuperpowers that women have in
the relationships that theybuild, particularly with other
women, is that level of trustand companionship.
We're not here to compete.
We're all here to achieve thesame things in different ways.
Ricki Barnes (06:08):
Who else is in your raft?
I like to think of the OG raft,but we all know it extends
beyond that.
Who else is in your raft?
Kate Kirwin (06:14):
I have so many people that I would consider
part of my various rafts.
We have a second raft that wecall the Raft of Chaos, which
are my more chaotic friends.
Jo Minney (06:27):
I'm very honoured to actually be in both of those
Ricki Barnes (06:31):
I'm not.
I'm at home with a book.
Kate Kirwin (06:33):
Jo can on occasion be a little bit chaos.
We love that about her.
I think we all need a Tracy inour lives.
And if you've not met TracyRothery, she is the fearless
cheerleader that is the mostexcited golden retriever of a
woman that I've ever met.
And I met her through She Codesand through the Women in Tech
(06:55):
community.
So really grateful to have herburst of energy in my life.
And there's so many more peoplethat we could honestly do a
whole podcast on just who elseis in my raft.
We could be here all day.
Yeah.
Jo Minney (07:08):
Unfortunately, we don't have all day, but you've
kind of also built a giganticraft.
And that's actually how allthree of us, I think, met was
through what is now calledShe Codes, but formerly was
known as Perth Web Girls.
My question to you, Kate, youstarted She Codes back in 2015.
(07:29):
Before any of us had met, wasthere something in particular
that happened in your life tospur you to start running coding
and cupcakes workshops backthen?
there.
Kate Kirwin (07:39):
Yeah, so contrary to popular belief, I have no
experience before this in techor entrepreneurship.
My experience was in events andI was working for a co-working
space.
I just got really curious and Iwanted to learn what people in
the community were doing andwent along to a bunch of tech
(08:00):
events to try and teach myself.
And I found very quickly thatthere was a point where I got
stuck and asking for help wasreally hard.
Online communities can be a Hitand miss.
A lot of miss.
A lot of miss.
Really unhelpful sometimes.
The in-person meetups weresuper technical.
(08:20):
Lots of acronyms.
I remember one day that Iwalked in and I was in this
bright green dress and theseshoes that were really loud on
the concrete floor.
And every single person turnedand stared at me.
And I knew half of them and Istill wanted to die.
It was such an uncomfortableexperience.
because I was the only woman inthe room.
(08:41):
Imagine if I didn't know anyoneand that was my first time
coming to an event like that.
I wouldn't come back.
So lots of these kinds ofthings were happening and I was
working with a really amazingguy in the community who wanted
to do an event for women.
We partnered on the first one.
He ended up moving overseas.
(09:01):
Then from there it The rest iskind of history.
So the community was superpassionate and excited.
We sold out the first event.
Then we did another one.
We had a waiting list ofhundreds of women.
So we kept doing
Ricki Barnes (09:16):
more.
The She Codes story, I think,really breaks down a common
misconception about women intech, which is that if they
wanted to be there, they wouldbe there.
They would look for jobs.
They would pursue it.
The reason there aren't morewomen is because they're just
not interested.
What are some of the othercommon misconceptions about
women in tech or about the techindustry?
Kate Kirwin (09:35):
Yeah, so the most common thing, when I say tech,
you think of a guy in a hoodiein a basement.
I think about 90% of peoplewhen I say that word, that's
what they think.
They think that you have to besuper smart.
You have to be a nerd.
You have to be good at math.
You have to be a logic person,not a creative person.
(09:56):
I actually think tech is socreative.
You're solving problems allday.
What's more creative than that?
Those are some of the thingsthat I hear.
And some of the barriers forwomen are there's a lack of
female role models.
And we're still telling youngwomen things like you're too fun
(10:17):
to be in tech there's no jobsecurity in tech you should do
something more suitable forwomen like accounting or nursing
not that they're bad careersbut why are we not pushing women
towards tech and activelysteering them in other
directions
Jo Minney (10:36):
One of the statistics that you mentioned, Kate, in a
lot of the presentations andthings that you give, for
example, at the start of theworkshops is around how many
jobs we need to fill in tech andthe fact that very soon almost
every industry, every job isgoing to require some kind of
technical skills.
So it seems absurd that wewould tell people not to learn
(11:00):
something that they're literallygoing to need to get by.
What is that statistic and whyis it important?
Kate Kirwin (11:05):
Pre-COVID, it is we needed 200,000 more people in
tech in the next five years.
Post-COVID, that's now amillion.
So that's quite a lot of peoplejust in Australia working in
tech and tech-related roles.
90% of Australians are going toneed to upskill or reskill in
emerging technologies in thenext five years, things like AI,
(11:27):
advanced data science.
There's a lot of changehappening and there's a lot of
fear out there for people who'vebeen listening to all of this.
I'm not smart enough.
I'm not nerdy enough.
I don't know how I fit intothis.
That's causing a lot of fear.
So we need to change thatnarrative so that we can fix
both a skills gap as well aswe've got an economic gap.
(11:50):
By fixing gender diversity intech, it could add $1.6 billion
a year into the The economicconditions we're in at the
moment, imagine what another$1.6 billion a year could add to
our country.
So I'm
Ricki Barnes (12:07):
going to take a bit of a pivot now and just
let's talk about She Codes alittle bit more, I guess, for
its current status.
So is there anything excitingthat's been happening for
She Codes recently?
Kate Kirwin (12:18):
Yeah.
So 2024 has been a huge year sofar.
We spun out into a new entity.
So we've been part ofSpacecubed for the last nine
years, which is co-working spacein Western Australia.
I've gone out into a newbusiness, which is really
exciting.
So I'm aligned more with thevision of where we're going and
(12:42):
really setting us up for growth.
So our crazy ambitious targetis to impact 100,000 women by
2025.
And I'm super aware that we'rein 2024 right now.
So that's not a lot of time anda long way to go.
So setting up for that successthrough this spin out.
We're also So running programsthis year in Perth and Brisbane
(13:04):
for women who want to learn howto code.
I think we mentioned at thestart, I've won a few awards
lately, which is still verysurreal.
I was named the WA YoungAustralian of the Year at the
end of last year and had theopportunity to go to Canberra as
part of Australian of the Yearand meet the Governor General,
(13:24):
meet the Prime Minister.
More importantly, meet all ofthe other Australian of the Year
nominees from all the otherstates and territories and
listen to their passions andtheir journeys.
And we might be hearing from acouple of those people in this
podcast series.
So I'm really excited theopportunity that gives for
telling the story of what we doand getting out to a broader
(13:46):
audience of talking to olderwomen, talking to young emerging
talent and really rebrandingtech as you don't have to be a
guy in a hoodie in a You can befeminine.
You can be whoever you want tobe and still find a role in
technology.
Jo Minney (14:06):
So we've talked about she codes and you run one day
workshops with cupcakes.
But along with that, a fewyears back, you decided rather
than just having this be a oneday thing, your sort of long
term goal was always to have itbe a cycle so that people could
progress through actuallyworking in the industry and then
coming back to mentor at theseone day workshops and to start
(14:29):
that whole cycle again.
So can you tell us a little bitabout the Plus program and why
it's different?
Why is it different from justgoing and studying computer
engineering at university?
What's different about Plusversus everything else?
Kate Kirwin (14:43):
I'm really proud of what we do with She Codes Plus.
It was a conversation thathappened over a couple of years
with our program partners whowere excited.
This is really great, but howdo I get someone I can hire into
my team in the next six to 12months rather than waiting for
two to five years through otherforms of education?
And what we created wassomething that really works for
(15:06):
women.
It's designed by women forwomen.
So it's part time.
It's outside of business hours.
So women can still work whilestudying and career change more
smoothly than quitting their joband investing a lot of time and
money into something.
And really focusing on womensupporting women.
(15:27):
So we have a stand up everyweek.
We are meaningfully sharingthings in class and having, I
guess, an extended raft of theother 20 women in the cohort who
have those lifelong bonds andfriendships post-program, as
well as being taught byindustry.
Our lecturers, I guess youcould call them, we call them
(15:50):
lead mentors and mentors are allpeople who are from industry,
who work in technical roles atvarious companies and they come
and teach for us and they cantell us both content, but also
this is how I code in my job andthese are some of the tools
that I use and this is what itlooks like in the real world.
I'm pretty excited that we'venow done over 10 cohorts and
(16:13):
we've had 250 women do the Plusprogram across Perth, Brisbane,
Sydney and we did one in PortHedland in the far north of
Western Australia.
The model is pretty cool.
So we work with businesses tofund places in the program and
they then get an upskillingopportunity for their own staff
(16:33):
as well as a recruitmentpipeline for new women who want
to join their business and canmeaningfully move that needle a
little bit faster by gettingactual women jobs in tech rather
than just talking about it.
How are we actually moving theneedle?
So 86% have got jobs in tech,usually within the first three
(16:54):
months post-program.
And it's so incredible for meseeing my women succeeding.
So we've got people like Joy,who was a mother from Toowoomba
in regional Queensland who's nowworking on a beach in Thailand
and travelling the world whilepushing code from wherever she
is.
We've got Maria who changedfrom a travel role during COVID
(17:18):
which was obviously quite anuncertain place to be.
She's now working for aresources company, was able to
buy a house, it's kind ofchanged her financial situation
and moved out of a potentiallyrisky industry over the last few
years, it's seeing things likethat and people being able to,
(17:38):
yeah, believe that anything'spossible.
Amazing.
And how is Plus going?
Are there plans?
There's plans.
The plan is to do anotherprogram a little bit later in
the year in Perth and Brisbaneagain, building out the
community there and do want tobe looking on a national scale
(17:59):
again over the next couple ofyears, just getting the right
partners on board to, to makethat possible.
But yeah, I keep being told ifwomen wanted to be in tech, they
just would be.
And that's completely crazy.
There are so many women whowant to do this.
It's role models, it'sopportunity and really investing
in women that pays off in thelong term.
Ricki Barnes (18:19):
So why do you think this, I guess, grassroots
sort of approach that you'veadopted is so successful?
Kate Kirwin (18:24):
At the heart of what we do, it's community.
That's so important.
When we're trying to createchange, having a community at
the heart of it just makeseverything a little bit easier.
Having that trust, therelationship building, trying to
solve that problem that I wasfinding right at the beginning
of who do you ask for help?
When things are really hard,having a community around you
(18:45):
makes things so much easier.
I've got amazing champions inthe community who love what we
do and are able to kind of sharethat message because it is
really...
We coined a term a couple ofyears ago called the cupcake
effect, which I love talkingabout at every possible moment.
(19:06):
And the cupcake effect is howsomething makes you feel.
We spent a lot of time on thecupcake effect and making sure
that everything we do feelsright.
warm and safe.
Intentional.
Intentional as well.
So we serve cupcakes.
If you've spent even fiveminutes on our website or
(19:26):
socials, you probably would knowthat.
But the cupcake is more thanjust functional food.
It's not just we put on lunchbecause you need to eat.
It's something a little bitspecial.
It's got the glitter and thesparkle.
You can take a photo of it forInstagram.
It feels like you're part ofsomething bigger.
And the cupcake effect is howHow we do that on a broader
(19:48):
scale.
So it's cultivating the musicchoices.
It's having name badges withmeaningful information on them.
It's the way something makesyou look and feel that you're
part of something bigger thanjust you and that it is
personalized for you and makingsure people have a really safe,
fun experience is so critical.
Jo Minney (20:09):
So I studied metallurgical engineering at
university.
That sounds like a sausagefest.
You'll all be very shocked toknow that I was the only girl to
graduate in my year.
I have to say, not only did itnot feel intentional that I was
there, it often felt intentionalagainst me.
My best friend that I wentthrough uni with before I met
(20:33):
y'all and she left and went toBrisbane and then did She Codes
Plus last year, which is just anamazing story I love that when
she was at uni Maya studied inanother male-dominated industry
and there were no female toiletsin her building and so she had
to leave the building where shewas meant to be studying to go
(20:54):
to the toilet and if that's notintentionally making someone
feel excluded when they're meantto be learning.
It's the literal opposite ofthe cupcake effect.
So I think what you're doing,Kate, in terms of building that
community where people don'tjust feel welcome, but feel like
it's made for them because itis, that's so
Kate Kirwin (21:13):
important.
That doesn't shock me, to behonest, because I've heard so
many stories like that.
I've heard stories on minesites that have been similar
because they were the firstwoman working on the team.
And I've also heard I've heardstories from an education
context where someone wasenrolled in a software
(21:33):
development course and herlecturer asked her multiple
times, are you sure you're inthe right room?
Are you sure you signed up forthe right program?
Yeah,
Ricki Barnes (21:43):
I know how to read, thank you.
And I know what I signed upfor.
Kate Kirwin (21:46):
Yeah, and are you sure you're not just copying off
the boys?
She was asked that as well.
So it's unsurprising to me thatshe dropped out because why
wouldn't you?
If every week you've got tojustify your existence, you're
not going to feel like this isthe place for me to survive and
thrive.
It's not a
Ricki Barnes (22:03):
welcoming environment.
What motivates you to keeppushing forward?
It's a big ask.
You know, you're obviouslygetting traction.
There's a lot of women thatyou're literally changing their
lives.
What motivates you to keeppushing up against all these
things like women being toldthey're too fun or they're in
the wrong industry or all ofthat kind of stuff?
Kate Kirwin (22:21):
For me, it's a couple of things.
Number one, for me, it's aboutpeople.
So hearing the stories from myalumni and seeing them succeed
in the things that they're doingfills me with so much joy.
And I was talking about thisrecently.
I've had some stories of peoplewho've ended up in tech from a
(22:42):
one-day workshop who haven'temailed me because they were
like, oh, but I just didn't wantto bother you.
I'm like, no, no, no, no, no,no, no, no.
That's what I want to know.
If my entire inbox was justfull of people telling me their
stories, what a great day.
Hearing those stories of peoplesucceeding is the most
important thing.
And then I'm really passionateabout how do we actually make a
(23:04):
difference.
There's so much research aboutthe economic impact of diversity
on a country level, but also onan organization level or
product level.
We can be building betterproducts.
We can be making betterdecisions.
We've got limited resources andlimited time on this earth so
how do we build better stuffthat actually fixes problems and
(23:29):
if we can close the gender paygap at the same time what a win
for everyone involved.
There's so many economicreasons for me to do what I do
and then hearing the actualstories from people on the
ground that have been part of itand building out that raft so
that we're keeping everyoneafloat.
We're two for she codes fromhere.
Yeah.
So our crazy target is 100,000women by 2025.
(23:52):
How many have you got left?
Our impact is about 30,000 sofar, so we're about a third of
the way there.
Got a little bit more work todo in the next 18 months to get
us to that number and reallyexcited for how we use this
platform to be able to impactmore lives.
For me personally, it's reallyabout reshaping that perception
(24:16):
that we have of who belongs intech, making sure that every
girl out there feels like that'ssomething that I could do and
it's not impossible and it'sachievable.
So what do you need to getthere?
There's a couple of ways thatyou can help.
The first is if you'reinterested in working with us on
(24:38):
moving the needle tangibly,we're looking for businesses to
partner with from a financialpoint of view, but also for
brand reach and sharing thatmessage a bit broader.
Reach out to us atshecodes.com.au of how your
organisation can partner withone of the most loved women in
tech brands in the country.
I think I'm allowed to saythat, but also get really great
(25:00):
tech talent at the same time andknow that you're part of
something that is changing thenarrative for women in tech.
So we're looking forpartnerships.
If you can follow us onsocials, we are She Codes
Australia or She Codes Aus onevery platform.
And if you are in tech andyou're a woman, I would love to
hear from you.
So what's your experience hasbeen to date and how can I help
(25:23):
you uplift your profile in theindustry you work in?
Jo Minney (25:28):
Other than partnering for fun What could people talk
about?
What could people do?
Is there anything else that youwould encourage people to talk
to their rafts about to helpwith the goal that She Codes
Australia is trying to achieve?
Kate Kirwin (25:43):
Yeah, I would love to see discussions about tech to
be discussed.
more of a dinner tableconversation.
So having a conversation withthe people in your life about,
you know, what are theopportunities that exist and how
can I be a part of that andjust trying it.
We say at our one dayworkshops, I don't actually care
if you get to the end of theday and you're like, I hate it
(26:06):
and I never want to do it againbecause at least you tried it
and you know that you don't wantto be in tech because you don't
want to be in tech, not becausesociety has told you that you
can't or you shouldn't.
Just having have a play with anonline tutorial, test out your
skills.
And I just want you to prove toyourself that actually maybe
(26:26):
you are smart enough to do this.
So I would really encourageeveryone just to give it a go
through me or through anyoneelse, not precious about it.
I'm a strong believer incollaboration, not competition.
We're all trying to achieve thesame thing.
So working together is betterthan trying to all separately do
(26:47):
the same thing.
It
So does She Codes have a raft?
So we work a lot with Women in Tech WA, WITWA for
short.
I've been part of theorganisation team, but also part
of the community for a coupleof years.
So I'd love to share the Raftof Bitches story with the WITWA
community, maybe at the nextconference.
Jo Minney (27:09):
Raft of Bitches panel at the conference, to get that
out there into the cosmos.
Kate Kirwin (27:14):
That's manifested.
Yeah, big fan of manifesting.
Tracy taught me that, the powerof manifesting.
of manifesting.
There's a whole heap of otherorganizations that are doing
really, really cool work,partnering with a whole heap of
different people, doing someyouth stuff.
We've done some things in thepast with Purposeful.
We're doing some stuff thisyear about coding for young
(27:37):
people, about drones, all kindsof different pieces.
I can't reveal too much justyet because it's still in
progress.
But I think what makes mereally excited is people who are
aligned on the same mission.
So our corporate partners areamazing.
We've been working with RioTinto, Bank West, BHP, City of
(28:01):
Perth.
There's a whole heap oforganisations that are really
looking at how we move theneedle.
Excited to work with them aswell as with these non-financial
partners like WiTWA who justamplify and extend like a good
raft should.
Jo Minney (28:16):
You mentioned about youth and sort of getting more
involved.
Do you find that the people whocome along to the workshops are
predominantly sort of theyounger generation that maybe
feel like tech is a little bitmore accessible?
Kate Kirwin (28:30):
So I think that's really interesting because there
is a myth that you have to beyoung to be in tech.
I've actually had quite a fewpeople put in their application
forms the She Codes programs.
I think I'm too old.
I'm 30.
Ricki Barnes (28:46):
Holy shit, I should be in a nursing home.
Kate Kirwin (28:49):
Right?
There's this idea that you haveto be like 18 and have grown up
with a touchscreen to be intech.
Most of our community are 25 to50, mostly women in their 30s
would be the bulk of ourcommunity.
Our one day workshop serieswe've had from ages five through
(29:09):
to 80 before.
And a couple of times now,actually, we've had three
generations of the same familycoding together.
And I think that's reallybeautiful.
Watching a high school, primaryschool aged girl with her mom
and then her grandma's there aswell.
They can all solve differentpieces of the puzzle because
(29:32):
they've all got differentstrengths and different ways
their brain works.
and different pieces of logicthat they've been exposed to
over the course of their careersand lives.
So I think that's really cool.
The long tail reach of that, ifyou can be sitting at the
dinner table talking about thecode you've done and spurring
each other on, that's almostlike a little mini raft within a
(29:54):
family unit of pushing eachother forward in their coding
journey.
So I love to see more of that.
I was actually talking tosomeone recently who heard me on
the radio and she's sent it outto her granddaughters to get a
couple of them to come along tothe workshop.
Jo Minney (30:12):
Yeah, and I think it's also really important to
have the different demographicsworking in the industry,
especially when one of thethings that's so important in
our industry is aboutaccessibility and making sure
that technology is able to beused by everyone.
If we've only got one verynarrow age group that's building
all of the technology thatwe're using, then it's not going
to be built for everybody.
(30:34):
It's going to be built for thatage group.
Ricki Barnes (30:36):
Yeah, it comes back to diversity within the
industry, like gender, race,age, all of those those things
ability if you don't haveblended teams that have a whole
different range of lifeexperiences you're not actually
going to come out with the bestproduct for the largest amount
of people
Kate Kirwin (30:52):
one of the stories I used to use a lot was about
wearable fitness trackers it wasvery evident about five years
ago which products had beendesigned with women in mind and
which hadn't because one productlooks feminine you could wear
it on your wrist and it lookslike part of your outfit.
(31:14):
But also when you're trackingyour workouts, there's things
like dance, yoga, other thingsother than just rugby, football,
running.
Walk, swim, run.
Yeah.
And if you can understand whatactivities people are doing,
your data is going to be so muchricher than just saying
(31:34):
everyone who's doing a yogaclass is out for a walk.
That's not going to give youthe metrics that you're looking
for.
That I think is a reallypowerful example of designing
with your customer in mind.
And if you've got a diverseteam that's building it,
hopefully you've got somethingthat your customers want.
Ricki Barnes (31:52):
What is the advice you've ever received?
Or even what is the best adviceyou wish you had received?
Kate Kirwin (31:59):
My best advice is that it never hurts to ask.
I think a lot of people who arereally early in their career
think that if you get told no,then that's a no forever.
A no just means a no, not rightnow.
So you and most people, if youask nicely and don't be creepy,
(32:20):
don't be weird, don't mind ifyou reach out and say, hey, can
we have a coffee or can I askyou something?
Can we talk about how you gotto where you are?
Most people are pretty generouswith their time.
And so it never hurts to ask.
Ricki Barnes (32:34):
I mean, I love that advice, but I think for a
lot of people, especially youngpeople and probably especially
women, that's going to besomething they're like, okay,
easy for you to say, Kate,you're WA's Young Australian of
the Year.
Of course people are saying yesto a coffee for you.
What's a piece of advice youwould give to people trying to
implement your advice?
Kate Kirwin (32:53):
I think if you've got a really clear value
proposition and you make itreally easy, so you're not
asking, can I have a mentoringcall once a week for the next
six months?
You're not asking somethingthat's a huge investment of
time, even an introduction tosomeone.
If you do a lot of the legworkfor them of this is the email
(33:17):
that I want you to send.
I've written the template.
You just need to top and tailit to do that for me.
Like try and make it easy forpeople and have a really clear
vision of what you want to getfrom that conversation.
I often won't say yes to coffeeif it's just, I just wanted to
pick your brains about yourstory.
Okay, but what do you actuallywant to get from that?
(33:39):
And how can I make the most ofthe 30 minutes that I have with
you?
So being really specific, beingreally clear and trying to make
it as easy as possible.
Jo Minney (33:51):
Oh, damn, that's some good advice.
Kate Kirwin (33:52):
Yeah.
Ricki Barnes (33:53):
Yeah, it is.
Kate, where can people get youif they want to get in contact?
Kate Kirwin (33:58):
I'm @the kate kirwin on Instagram and Kate
Kirwin on LinkedIn.
Otherwise, you can find us at@SheCodesAus on Twitter and
Instagram andShe Codes Australia on LinkedIn
and Facebook.
And the website isshecodes.com.au.
Jo Minney (34:15):
Unfortunately, we are otterly out of time.
Ricki Barnes (34:18):
That's right.
But if you are a woman in tech,especially a woman who has been
told that you're too fun oryou've been excluded somehow,
we'd love to hear from you.
And where can people reach us?
We're on Instagram @RaftPodcast, or you can email hello
at raftpodcast.com.
Jo Minney (34:35):
And for previous episodes or to find out more,
don't forget to check out ourwebsite, raftpodcast.com, or
find us wherever you downloadpodcasts.
Thanks for
Ricki Barnes (34:44):
listening, Rafters.
Catch you next time.
It's a bit warm?
(35:11):
You're a man, you're obviouslywarmer than the rest of us.
Jo Minney (35:17):
But you are actually legitimately warmer than the
rest
Ricki Barnes (35:19):
of us.
You are actually,scientifically speaking, you
would be legitimately warmerthan the rest of us.
On average.
We're hotter, but you'rewarmer.
Oh shit!
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