October 21, 2024 • 37 mins
With over two decades in startup/scale-up land and two unicorns (startup companies with a value of over $1 billion) under her belt, Sam loves nothing more than helping others shine.
Sam has a flair for building large resilient teams from the ground up, creating the people journey culture, implementing change management processes, streamlining operation processes, firefighting when the house is on fire and assisting companies set the foundations for successful growth.
Sam’s current major project (and hopefully next unicorn) is www.sapher.com – simple, effective, and affordable online security for everyday people. Help her get there by checking it out!
If you’d like to connect with Sam, she’d love to hear from you on LinkedIn or you can find her annually at the back of every session with a glass of champagne at West Tech Fest.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Ricki Barnes (00:00):
Hi Rafters, before this episode begins, we just
want to warn you that, as usual,this episode contains adult
language and concepts.
Kate Kirwin (00:21):
For centuries, women have been taught that we
are each other's worst enemies.
But in our experience, womenare more like otters than queen
bees.
Female otters...
Bitches, if you will, joinhands with each other to create
rafts that stop them fromdrifting apart and losing each
other while they're asleep.
Just like a literal raft ofbitches, our experience has been
(00:41):
that thriving women often havea tight-knit community of other
women who've helped them getthere by providing information
and support along the way andmaking sure that we all stay
afloat.
Welcome to the Raft of Bitchespodcast.
My co-host today is RickiBarnes.
Fun fact, she walks her catwith a leash.
Ricki Barnes (01:03):
That's right, I absolutely do.
Just the one though, I've gotseveral others and there's only
one that's allowed outside.
My co-host today is Kate and afun fact about Kate is that she
once did a four kilometre walkwhile hooping a hula hoop to
raise money for Zonta House.
I did.
We're very excited to have aguest with us today, the
(01:25):
wonderful Sam Brown.
Sam is the self-confessed queenof getting shit done.
She's been part of so manystart-ups and scale-ups over the
last two decades of her careerand describes herself as a bit
of a unicorn hunter, having beenpart of two West Australian
unicorns, and it's always on thelookout for more.
Welcome to the podcast, Sam.
Sam Brown (01:45):
Thanks for having me, Kate and Ricki.
Kate Kirwin (01:48):
So we thought we'd kick off with a little bit of an
icebreaker.
I believe you have two truthsand a lie for
Sam Brown (01:54):
I do.
And you get to pick.
Ricki Barnes (01:57):
Y eah, we're excited to hear this one because
we feel it's going to be quitedifficult with Sam's, shall
Sam Brown (02:04):
My varied background.
So one fact is I have givenmouth to gill resuscitation to a
fish.
One is I have been skydivingand one is I have been to
culinary school.
Ricki Barnes (02:21):
Oh, hell. I mean, I'm going to go out on a limb
and say I reckon the fish one istrue.
I'm just starting there and I'mlike, yep, true, definitely.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Sam Brown (02:33):
It is true.
Ricki Barnes (02:35):
Okay, all right.
Now it's a 50-50.
It is a 50-50.
I reckon she hasn't beenskydiving.
Yeah, out of all those things,it's the most Sam thing to do
and so therefore I feel likeit's a bit of a little red
herring.
A little red herring, yeah.
Sam Brown (02:48):
No, I have been skydiving.
I have not been to culinaryschool.
Ricki Barnes (02:52):
But is it on the list?
Sam Brown (02:53):
It's on the bucket list.
Kate Kirwin (02:54):
Great.
Do you have a particular thingthat you would study at culinary
school if you went?
Sam Brown (02:59):
Knife skills.
I know that's weird.
I'd like to learn how to chop
Kate Kirwin (03:04):
Today we're going to explore a little bit about
alternative pathways to success.
I've known you, Sam, a longtime now.
Sam Brown (03:11):
It has been a while.
Kate Kirwin (03:12):
Nine, ten years.
Yeah.
And I think that we were taughta lot that somehow our lives
are supposed to be this superlinear progression that we do
school, university, job,accelerate through jobs, get to
success.
And there's this magical, youknow, place at the end where
you're a successful person.
But I don't think life's likethat.
(03:33):
And so I'm really curious tohear a little bit about what
your journey has been like,where you've gone, how you got
to where you are.
Sam Brown (03:43):
Hard work and determination.
It's as simple as that.
Common sense.
I am not university qualified.
I do have a certificate inaquaculture.
So I am an aquaculturalist bytrade and hence the mouth to
gill.
Ricki Barnes (04:00):
Of course, yes, that all makes sense.
Sam Brown (04:02):
It happened to be our breeding stock of pink snapper
that we had down at FremantleTAFE and we had a power outage.
Ricki Barnes (04:09):
Can I just ask, was the manoeuvre successful?
Sam Brown (04:12):
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
Great work.
It was great.
She's a lifesaver.
I was literally a lifesaver.
I liked different things.
So I spent a lot of time inautomotive and insurance in my
really early days of my career,just trying to work out who I
am.
I don't conform to largecorporations.
So people that know me willknow that that's just not who I
am.
(04:32):
And that's how I naturallystarted to fall into the startup
culture.
It was one of my mother's groupladies.
Her husband had a tech startupbusiness that he was putting a
house in Australia for a UKcompany, a development house.
And he asked me to come in anddo some testing.
And I'm like, sure.
Our babies were little, noproblems.
(04:53):
Come in and test some medicalsoftware for him.
And that started my entirejourney into tech.
And I loved it.
Absolutely loved it.
Was with the company for quitea few years.
Left that company when the GFChit and we shut the Australian
office down, rehomed all of mystaff.
We had 60 staff at the time.
And one of the recruitersactually said to me, oh, could
you do me a favour and do asix-week stint at Nearmap while
(05:17):
their office manager is awayjust to give me a hand?
And I'm like, sure, noproblems.
And that started my firstunicorn, which was Nearmap.
And I just progressed my waythrough there.
Migrated the company to Sydney.
Helped with the migration whenthey first started their
operations in the US.
And then it was time for me tomove on.
Rolled into VGW at Spacecubewhere the company was very,
(05:41):
very, very young.
And I came in just generally tohelp them with their
operations.
And that just led to a sevenyear crazy ride.
That's become my secondunicorn.
Ricki Barnes (05:55):
Can we just quickly define, just in case
people aren't familiar, what aunicorn is in this context?
Sam Brown (06:01):
So a unicorn is a business that is worth a billion
dollars.
So when I first started atNearmap, never in our wildest
dreams did we think the companywould become a billion dollar
company.
Same with VGW.
All we wanted to do was makesome money, make some customers
happy.
But it was a billion dollarcompany after I left.
Both companies were a billiondollar company after I left.
(06:21):
I come in specifically atStartup and Scale Up.
Once the business is rocking asusual, I'm not your girl.
It's time for somebody else tocome in and run into that.
What we're
Ricki Barnes (06:31):
alternative pathways to success.
You've already told us youdidn't go to university.
I would say...
From my point of view, it seemslike there is a huge focus on
higher education in Australia.
I think we're one of the mosteducated countries in the world.
We have a particularly highnumber of women who have degrees
in Australia.
And I think sometimes it feelslike, especially for young
(06:55):
people, that is the only pathwayto success, particularly in the
kind of industries that you'veended up in.
So maybe there are otheroptions for more trades-based
things.
But I think for a lot of youngpeople, it seems like university
is the be all and end all.
Yeah.
What's your kind of take onthat?
As you say yourself, you'dnever went
Sam Brown (07:15):
to university.
No.
And I have encouraged mychildren not to go to university
either.
I believe if you have aDedicated pathway.
You want to become a doctor.
Absolutely.
The only way to do that is viauniversity.
I didn't ever want to be adoctor.
I didn't know what I wanted todo.
I still don't know what I wantto do.
I'm just going to be this womanthat comes in and fixes chaos
(07:36):
and fires and mayhem.
That's what I want to do.
There is nothing they can teachme in university to do that.
It is common sense.
It is a deep understanding ofknowing what I can fix and what
I can't fix and making sure thatI surround myself with people
that can fix what I can't.
And once you've got that, onceyou've learnt that and you
(07:57):
surround yourself with the rightpeople, you can solve any
problem out there.
And how did you learn that?
There's no right answer to thatone, right?
It's a lot of trial and error.
It's a lot of saying yes whensomeone says we've got a
problem, can you help me?
Yes.
Did I know that I could helpthem?
Hell no.
Still did it.
Bumbled my way through.
It was fake it till you makeit.
(08:19):
There was a lot of fake it tillyou make it.
Literally walking in to dopresentations and they're like,
where are your slideshow?
And I'm like, yeah, I don't doslideshows.
48-year-old woman, I have neverproduced a PowerPoint
presentation.
I will never produce aPowerPoint presentation.
If only I could say the same.
In my mind and the way that Iroll, if I can't articulate to
(08:41):
you what I'm trying to saywithout having a PowerPoint
presentation, I don't know mycontent.
Now, everybody rolls different.
I am a very hands-on person.
I'm a build you from the groundup.
I surround myself with teams ofsmarter than me people and make
sure that anybody that I hirehas a heart and soul.
(09:04):
And if you have a heart andsoul and you genuinely care, I
can teach you anything.
I can't teach you to genuinelycare.
My focus has always been in thecustomer service operations
space.
So yes, I could go and get myMBA in business.
And yes, I could go and become,you know, operational
excellence.
Or I can use some common sense,know that the customer is 99.5%
(09:27):
of the time right, and listento their feedback to make our
products better or to make myservice better or to genuinely
make our business better.
And that's what I've tended tohave done.
You
Kate Kirwin (09:41):
touched on a lot there.
One of the things that I reallylove about you, Sam, is how
real and authentic you are andjust tell it how it is and not
get swept up in all of the waythat it's supposed to be, the
right way of doing things.
In researching this, I waslooking at some of the crazy
titles that you've givenyourself over the years.
So I found Queen of GettingShit Done, Culture Queen, Chief
(10:04):
Awesome Officer, ChiefFirefighter.
Are there any more crazy titlesyou have?
Sam Brown (10:08):
Mum.
Um's a pretty crazy one.
Yeah, Chief Wonder Woman.
Chief Wonder Woman was inthere.
That was from my staff in thePhilippines at VGW.
And do you know what?
It comes from the staff.
To be fair, most of thosetitles I've been given, they're
not ones that I've pickedmyself.
I'm not the most professionalperson in the room.
I will never be the mostprofessional person in the room.
(10:30):
It's just not who I am.
This is why I am not cut outfor big corporates.
I don't like towing the line.
I have a potty mouth.
I really do, just in caseanybody didn't know that about
me.
I totally do.
Kate Kirwin (10:43):
You're on the right podcast.
Sam Brown (10:44):
I'm on the right podcast.
But for me, if I can't makesure that the culture within my
team is one of safe space andconstant progression of your
path, I will move heaven andearth for you to progress in
your role, then what am I doingas a leader?
Unknown (11:05):
Yeah.
Sam Brown (11:06):
So all of my staff have always been upskilled and
uptrained.
And I always promote fromwithin before I go outside to
give people a career path.
And if they want to move from,I don't want to do operations
anymore.
I want to now be a tester.
I will move you to a tester.
I'll put you through thetraining.
So I think those types ofthings genuinely start to make
(11:29):
you a leader that gets titleslike that.
Kate Kirwin (11:31):
How do you show up with that kind of authenticity
in your work?
Sam Brown (11:35):
It's just who I am.
It is just honestly who I wakeup and that's just who I am.
I'm a naturally bright andbubbly person anyway.
I do like a lot of chaos, so Itend to attract chaos.
I am epic under pressure.
It's one thing I am very proudof.
I am pretty good underpressure.
I've had A lot of hard thingshappen in my life.
(11:57):
It hasn't been an easy life.
We talk about this linear path.
My path is anything but linear.
It was 10 steps backwards forthree steps forward and then
steps sideways.
I have changed my field.
I've always been operations andI've always been customer
service, but I've been inautomotive and in aerial
(12:18):
imagery, in online gaming, inmedical software, identity
verification.
Now I'm going back into cybersecurity.
So it's been so varied, but theprinciples are fundamental.
They don't change.
Love your customer, love yourteam, be a nice human.
If you can do those threethings, you've nailed it.
Ricki Barnes (12:38):
Can I ask, has there ever been a time that
you've felt that you haven'tbeen able to show up as
yourself?
Sam Brown (12:46):
Yep.
Ricki Barnes (12:46):
And what did you do about that?
Sam Brown (12:48):
I was really vocal, really vocal.
So I would get on Slack and I'mlike, guys, I'm having a really
low day today.
Nothing to do with anythinghere.
I'm just not my normal self andit's okay.
And we roll on through and thenmy staff would bring me cups of
tea or They'd bring me freshtea and flowers, like my two
favourite things on the planet,and champagne.
(13:08):
They would bring them.
But then they're all sothankful that I can say it's
okay to have a bad day becauseit is okay to have a bad day.
And unfortunately we have asociety now that has a lot of
mental health problems and a lotof people are too scared to
talk about it.
I don't want you to be tooscared to talk about it.
If you're having a shit day,let me know.
(13:30):
I'll do everything in my powerto make it better.
But some days I can't because Idon't have it in me.
I might not have slept verywell.
There might be a problembrewing that I don't have the
immediate answer to.
And so then I don't feel likeI'm actually showing up as my
true self.
That's okay.
But in a day or two's time,once I've worked through that,
no, I'm back.
(13:50):
And everyone knows I'm back andthey can hear me coming down
the street.
So it's about being honest andreal.
Kate Kirwin (13:57):
You touched on before that it hasn't always
been easy.
I'd love to hear about some ofthe challenges along the way.
I think we sugarcoat and lookat the positives and the
highlight reel, but for everyhighlight, there's a low light.
Can you tell us about some ofthe challenges?
Sam Brown (14:13):
Yeah.
I had a medical episode at VGW.
I'd been at VGW for about sixyears, five and a half, six
years at this point.
And we were going through aepically hard time.
Our payment provider that ourcustomers purchased packages
through had given us notice andwe had to bring in a new payment
provider and the whole businesswas up in arms about it.
(14:34):
And because my staff are frontfacing, my staff were all of the
brunt of that.
And I had a heart attackhalfway through a transition
period.
It was really hard.
I went to hospital.
My mum was working for me atthe time.
She wanted to come to hospital.
I'm like, I need you to go towork and stand up.
You have to go to work.
(14:55):
Dad will meet me at thehospital.
It's okay.
And I had to have six weeksoff.
And it was a stress-inducedheart attack.
But it did damage my heart.
So I had to then be verycareful about the stress levels.
And that was one of thecatalysts for the point for me
where this is just a bit ofbusiness as usual now.
Yes, that was a criticalincident that happened.
(15:15):
While I was handling thesituation really well, it was so
much pressure that I had put onmyself to make sure that my
team were protected and my bodyjust said enough was enough.
But I came back from it and Isurvived.
You know, many people haven't.
But it changed the way that Ideal now with stressful
situations.
(15:35):
I had to start to put someprocesses into play that said,
all right...
you now need to go and take along bath and read a book.
I love a good bath and I love agood book without the glass of
wine.
Sure.
So,
Ricki Barnes (15:47):
yeah.
And do you have, I guess,advice for women who might be
under a lot of pressure, under alot of stress?
I think women are particularlygood at putting themselves under
stress and pressure as well asall the external pressure that
we're under all the time.
Any advice for people to findtheir way to cope with it in a
more healthy sort of way.
Sam Brown (16:07):
The advice that I was given was if I didn't find a
way to relax, I would turn backup at the hospital with another
heart attack that I wouldn'thave survived.
And I said to the cardiologist,I don't relax.
I work.
I'm a single mum, two youngchildren, and it's a start-up.
It was a crazy start-up.
(16:28):
We did stupid hours.
And he went, go for a walk,read a book, take a bath.
So I did all three.
I have many a raft in my lifeand I have different rafts for
different things.
I have...
rafts that are my happy raftsand I have rafts that are my sad
rafts and I've got rafts thathave been with me for like 22
years and I've got new rafts butI found a raft that I was
(16:52):
comfortable to talk with to sayhey I'm not okay I thought I was
okay but I'm actually not okaythey didn't judge me they still
love me they're here to supportme they cook me a meal they
invite me out for dinner so itwas getting back to reality so
finding your reality because Nojob on the planet is worth a
(17:13):
heart attack.
Ricki Barnes (17:15):
Definitely.
Do you want to give a shout outto the people who are in that
raft that supported you at thattime?
Sam Brown (17:21):
Yes.
So I have an amazing mother'sgroup who have been with me for
22.
Our oldest children are 22.
And those women are from alldifferent walks of life.
We've got women who are inbusiness like me, women who have
been in tech startups.
We've got stay-at-home mums.
We've got women who have theirown businesses.
(17:41):
And they...
I wouldn't be here withoutthem, actually.
They're my for every people.
They're my for every raft.
And we've had people that havemoved to the East Coast.
They're still here.
We've had births.
We've had deaths.
We've had loss of children.
We've had divorces andmarriages and licenses and 18th
(18:02):
and 21sts.
And now we're at the stagewhere all of our children are
now getting partners and we'rewaiting for the first
engagement.
So it's exciting times.
But yeah, without those women,I definitely wouldn't be here.
It's incredible having thatfriendship last so long.
Yep.
And you know what it is?
It's communication.
It's time.
In the early days when ourbabies were little and none of
(18:24):
us knew what we wanted to dowith a career, it was Keely
whose husband Sam said to me,come and do some testing for me.
And Sam really sort ofskyrocketed my passion for tech.
But it came out of my mother'sgroup, Chance Meeting.
In a suburb that I didn't evenlive in, I ended up in a manning
mother's group like 25 minutesaway.
(18:44):
It was just random and flukeand I fell in love with these
women and here we are.
Kate Kirwin (18:50):
So cool.
I've had the pleasure of, I feellike I've seen a lot of the
journey of your kids growing upinto the young adults they are
now.
You've been a single mum formost of your career.
Yeah.
What's that journey been like?
And do you have any lessonsthat you want to share with our
audience?
Sam Brown (19:07):
It's been hard.
My partner passed away, I was34 and the children were very
young, so in primary school.
And it was a very unexpectedheart attack on the way home
from work.
And it was hard.
It was really hard.
I took a couple of months,three months off work and then
said to my boss at Nearmap atthe time, Can't afford to not
(19:28):
work anymore.
He'd paid me the whole waythrough, but that's not me.
That's not who I am.
I need to work for my money.
And he said to me, I'll moveyou into a sales role, make
sales and renew licenses ofNearmap with state, federal and
local governments, and I'll payyour commission.
And I'm like, I don't know howto sell.
(19:50):
And he went, this is the onlyway you're going to make money.
I'm like, okay.
I trust you.
So he put me on a trainingcourse to learn 101 sales.
And my first commission checkwas, I think it was like $500.
And I took my CEO and his wifeout for dinner to say thank you.
Then I just started to claw myway.
I landed a deal with a federaldepartment.
(20:12):
And that was my biggestcommission check that actually
paid for my partner's funeral.
So it was hard, right?
Yeah.
But you've got to show up.
You can't not.
You've got to just keep going.
You've just got to and haveyour bad days because there were
days I'd sit in the office andcry, as you do.
The school would ring and say,come pick your kids up because
they're just not coping.
(20:32):
But you had to show up.
It's been 13 years and I'mstill teary.
Thank you
Kate Kirwin (20:40):
for sharing that with us.
Yes.
I feel a little teary too.
I know, it's terrible.
But I think it's so importanttelling those stories.
Yeah.
Sam Brown (20:47):
Yep.
But it's constantly showing up.
I didn't want my kids to go,mum had a bad thing and
therefore she fell in a hole andshe couldn't get out of bed.
Nope.
She got up, she brushed off herknees and she kept on rocking.
And yeah, we've had some toughtimes.
Who has a death of a partnerand a heart attack within a few
years of each other?
(21:07):
It's hard.
But I'm still here and I'mstill happy and I'm still
kicking goals, you know.
Kate Kirwin (21:16):
S o inspiring.
Honestly, so inspiring.
Sam Brown (21:19):
No, I think, do you know what?
It's nothing...
different than anybody elsewould do honestly people have
bad shit happen to them theyhave car accidents they have
cancer and sickness and peoplehave that sort of stuff that
happens and they just get onwith it yes we we moan and yes
sometimes you can't see thelight at the end of that tunnel
(21:39):
but you know it's there and it'sabout making sure again
surrounding yourself with thosepeople that when I do stumble
you're all there to pick me upand hold me and We all still
rock on, right?
We still love each other.
And I think it's about notovercomplicating it.
Don't go out and read thosebooks.
Just use your common sense.
(22:00):
Surround yourself with yourgirlfriends or your guy friends
or whoever it is, your parents,whoever.
Your raft.
Your raft.
And that's it.
And lean on them for support.
So do you think attitude youhave of, you know, it will be
all right, there is light at theend of the tunnel, right?
it's going to happen is one ofthe reasons that the startups
(22:22):
you've been involved in havebeen so successful?
Yeah, absolutely.
One of my big catch cries isthat I don't fail, right?
We all fail.
We all fail at things.
Yes, I could have been betterat something.
Yes, that didn't go to plan.
But again, there's always alight at the end of that tunnel.
I am an optimist.
There is nothing in this worldthat I cannot do.
(22:44):
Nothing.
I believe I could do it.
I mean, okay, maybe I can't goto space.
But, you know, maybe if I throwenough money at it.
Maybe in a few years' time.
You never know.
But there's nothing in thisworld that I can't do.
And I apply that logic to everystartup I come into.
Some of those startups I comein and it's just a mess.
with founders that have gotreally strong beliefs in how
(23:06):
they want something to go.
But fundamentally, it's justnot how life works.
My job is quite often aboutcorralling them into my way of
thinking, which I know makes mesound really like a dick, but it
is my way of thinking that willtake the staff and that product
and that business on a journeyto get to where it I'm not a
(23:30):
one-man band.
All of these startups have hadhundreds of people to make them
successful.
But when you've got a championin there that is constantly
pushing the good fight, thatyes, we're going to get there,
yes, we're going to get there,rallying the troops, it makes
you want to show up and do yourbest.
Ricki Barnes (23:48):
Have there been any startups that you've been
involved in that haven't gone asyou'd like them to go, that you
gave up on, that you...
you know, decided I reallycan't help you.
Sam Brown (23:59):
Yes, there has been one.
I beat myself up about this onecompany for a really long time.
It was one of the saddest daysof my career because I went home
feeling like a failure.
However, I didn't actuallyfail.
I just realised that that wasjust not my person.
At the end of the day, I am noteverybody's cup of tea and it
(24:22):
is okay to ...it is okay if wedon't get on fabulously.
For me it was about recognisingthat the way that I do
things...
...and the way that otherpeople do things don't always
align.
I am pretty brash.
I'm pretty forward.
I don't mince my words.
(24:42):
I am here to make yousuccessful.
I am here to make you shine.
That's all I'm here for.
And it's your business.
But if I'm not your person...
then it's okay for us not to bein this road.
Kate Kirwin (24:56):
The theme that we're exploring is about the
alternative pathways to success.
What does success actually looklike for you?
Do you have a definition ofwhat success i s?
Sam Brown (25:05):
Making others shine.
I am successful when everybodyaround me is successful.
It's as simple as that.
Success in a business is havinga business that I can walk out
the back end of and go, ha ha,look what I just did.
We've taken it from this idea,this conception, this business
that isn't making any money andnow we've got this massive beast
(25:26):
that's super successful withthousands of customers that love
it.
That's successful.
But that's not my success.
My success is all the staffthat I've hired and helped and
grown and mentored and coachedand loved over the years and
their growth and their successis what?
I determine my
Kate Kirwin (25:46):
That's so beautiful.
Sam Brown (25:48):
My very first employer, way back when, when I
was very young, said to me, tellme how much you need to earn to
be successful.
And I said to him, it's notabout the money.
He went, you're not going toget very far in life, are you?
Like, yeah, of course I am.
He said to me, no, no, no, youneed to have financial goals.
You need to determine successand finance.
(26:09):
And that stuck with me becauseMoney is not a currency for me.
Time is a currency.
So you giving your time to memeans that I'm successful
because you want to spend timewith me.
Ricki Barnes (26:23):
We've talked a lot today about, you know, the
various different paths thatyour career has taken, which has
obviously been a lot of change.
You've changed industries.
You've done a lot of differentthings.
What would your advice be topeople who are feeling stuck in
their careers?
Sam Brown (26:40):
Change.
Move.
Take the different role.
It's not about the money.
Don't chase the title.
Chase the passion.
Chase the joy.
What's the thing that you wakeup in the morning going, fuck,
that's the best thing on theplanet.
That.
Go find that job.
Now, maybe it's in data.
Maybe it's in tech.
Maybe it's in, maybe you wantto be a dental hygienist.
(27:03):
Go be a dental hygienist.
There is nothing stopping youon this planet by yourself.
and that limiting belief inwhat you can achieve.
I know that I can achievegreatness, but my greatness and
your greatness are going to bevery different.
Wake up, decide what you wantto do, make the plan, action the
plan.
That's it.
It's as simple as that.
(27:23):
Don't overcomplicate it.
Is it as simple as that?
It is honestly as simple asthat.
I have been quite wealthy.
I have been very broke where myhouse was going up for
mortgagee sale because Icouldn't make my mortgage
payments.
I've been on all aspects.
I've lived in a rental.
I've had moments where I'mlike, this is too hard.
(27:44):
I just need to move my childrenback in with mum and dad.
I've been in all those spaces,but never once did I ever think
I can't do this because I know Ican.
It's just about how deep do Ihave to dig and how much do I
have to change what I'mcurrently doing to get me to the
first hurdle?
Because once you've jumped thefirst hurdle, the second one's
(28:05):
easy.
The third one's even easier.
And it's all just about puttingthose little hurdles into play.
Go jump them.
We can all jump.
It's just about how high.
Ricki Barnes (28:13):
Excellent way of putting it.
We've got a Sam Brown pep talk.
I'm going to listen back tothis whenever I need to feel
energized in my career.
Sam Brown (28:23):
I'm very good at prompting everybody else up,
brooding up the spirits.
I'm pretty good at that.
Kate Kirwin (28:28):
Do you have advice for people that have a goal in
mind of where they want to bebut they're not qualified to get
there?
They haven't tried it.
How do they realize that g oal?
Sam Brown (28:41):
Use your network.
Absolutely reach out to yournetwork.
And if you don't have a largenetwork, reach out to someone in
your network who does have alarge network.
We all know somebody who knowssomebody who can get you in as
an intern for a day.
Come spend the day in the lifeof to see if that is something
you want to do.
Find places like She Codes whowill actually show you what
(29:03):
coding looks like.
There is a lot of these around.
And genuinely, putting it outthere.
I'm a big believer of if youput it out to the universe, it
will provide.
So for me, the more you'retalking about whatever it is
that you're wanting to change orlook into, it just starts to
turn up on all your feeds andyou will naturally find that
(29:23):
those people are starting tosurround you.
And be ballsy.
Ask for help.
Go and say to your employer,hey, not loving it, thinking I
might want to be in thatdepartment.
Can I do a day a week and seeif I like it?
What's the worst they're goingto say?
No.
Go find a company who says yes.
Because if that company saysno, that's not the company for
Ricki Barnes (29:44):
Sounds like really what we need to do essentially
is channel our inner Sam Brown.
Kate Kirwin (29:49):
Yeah.
There's a reason to have her onmy like little advisory board,
personal advisory
Sam Brown (29:58):
I am on quite a few people's personal advisory
boards.
Look, at the end of the day, wecan't do this alone.
We have to do this with a raft.
So make sure, again, yousurround yourself with the right
raft and the sky's the limit.
I love that.
Kate Kirwin (30:14):
On your LinkedIn, I found while researching for
this podcast, a quote thatyou've shared, which was, your
smile is your logo, yourpersonality is your business
card, and how you make othersfeel becomes your trademark.
I love it so much.
Can you tell me a little bitabout what that means to you and
how that's played out over yourcareer?
Yeah.
Sam Brown (30:33):
So I don't even know where I found that, but that has
played out several times.
I turned 40 a while ago and Istarted planning my 40th
birthday right at the lastminute because that's how I roll
and very quickly realized therewas 250 people on the
invitation list and everybodywas like you can't have 250
(30:57):
people I'm like of course I canwatch me and it was all
different rafts of my workingcareer my family everybody was
there but the big topic thatkept coming up all the time is I
love how I feel when I've leftyou When I go home, I'm still
buzzing because of being aroundyou and your personality and
your loudness.
And I am very, very loud.
(31:18):
I think having constantly heardthat my whole life, I've had a
lot of people say, you're tooloud.
You just need to tone it down.
I will never tone it down.
If I am too loud for you, seeya.
I don't need you in my spaceand that's okay.
And I get that you can't alwaysmake everybody happy.
But I think I do a pretty epicjob of making people happy.
(31:41):
I mix my personal life with mybusiness life because they're
all ingrained.
So for me, what you see is whatyou get, whether I'm in
business or I'm in personal,whether I'm at a funeral,
whether I'm at a wedding, I amjust me, just me.
Don't change.
That's my advice to your raftof listeners.
Do not change.
(32:02):
Be authentically yourself anddo not apologise for that.
Don't apologise.
That's
Ricki Barnes (32:08):
excellent advice.
Speaking of advice, what is thebest advice that you've ever
received?
Sam Brown (32:15):
Don't tone yourself down.
Same advice.
Same advice.
Don't tone yourself down.
It was from the most randomperson who didn't even work with
me.
And she said, beunapologetically yourself.
Never tone yourself down.
And it's just stuck with me.
And I'll never forget her,ever.
(32:37):
You will never go wrong in thisworld if you are yourself.
You may lose jobs because youare too loud, too big, too
forward, too this.
Fuck that.
Pick the right company.
Pick the right people tosupport you.
Don't tone yourself down for acompany.
It's just not worth it.
Life is too short.
What's next for you?
(32:59):
Wow.
My third unicorn.
It's a cyber security company.
We are in the scam preventionarm of cyber security.
So it's about notifying youwhen you are accessing a scam
link or a fraudulent site or ayour toll is overdue, pay your
(33:19):
toll.
You know, your Coles orderwasn't paid correctly, pay your
Coles order.
When you click on those links,we tell you that they're a
suspicious site.
And the thing I love about thisis it goes with my personal
morals and brand of protectingthe everyday user.
Part of my customer servicejourney is about making sure
(33:39):
that people are heard, peopleare listened to and people are
protected.
We know that scams are rippingmillions of dollars off people
globally.
And when Joe came to me withthis and said, hey, I want you
on board, I jumped.
And at that stage, I was withtwo other startups.
So I had three startups on thego and it was a little much.
(34:01):
And now I'm just solely doingone.
We are getting ready to launchour product.
I said to Joe, you can't keepme because once I get this
product up and running, I willgo and do something different.
So he came up with 10 otherbusiness ideas that all stem off
this one.
And he's like, so we'll getthis one up and then we'll move
to the next one, right?
And then the next one, right?
(34:21):
So it's very exciting.
Ricki Barnes (34:23):
So with your challenge, is there anything
that you need?
Who would you need to add toyour raft?
Is there anything that...
our raft of bitches, ourlisteners, could do to help you?
Sam Brown (34:34):
What I do need is businesses.
I need businesses that want toprotect their business from
scams.
I need mums and dads.
I need families that want togift a loved one.
One of the products we've builtwithin our extension is Gift a
Loved One so that I could buy itfor my mum and dad who might be
(34:54):
a little bit older and don'tnecessarily understand.
And that just means thateverybody is safe and protected.
So I would ask your raft thatif they're interested in
protecting themselves from anonline scam, that they go and
look at safer.com.
That's S-A-P-H-E-R.com.
Amazing.
Kate Kirwin (35:14):
And how can our listeners find more about you
and what you're up to?
Sam Brown (35:19):
I do have a pretty decent LinkedIn presence, Sam
Brown-Perth.
I am a lover of West Tech Fest.
So come and have a champagnewith me.
I'm the noisy one at the backof the room in every session.
If any of your raft need somementoring, want some advice,
just genuinely want to know whattheir next steps could be if it
(35:41):
was me, happy to have a chat.
Ricki Barnes (35:44):
Thanks for joining us today, Sam.
We loved hearing from you andloved hearing all of your sage
advice.
I'm sure there's lots of peoplewho would like to reach out and
probably take advantage of amentoring session with you or,
you know, just a pep talk even.
Unfortunately, once again,we're otterly out of time.
Kate Kirwin (36:02):
That's right.
But if you didn't go touniversity but have a banger
career, we would love to hearfrom you.
Ricki Barnes (36:08):
And where can people reach us?
Kate Kirwin (36:10):
We're on Instagram at Raft Podcast or you can email
us at hello at raftpodcast.com.
Ricki Barnes (36:18):
And for previous episodes or to find out more,
don't forget to check out ourwebsite raftpodcast.com or find
us wherever you downloadpodcasts.
Kate Kirwin (36:26):
Thanks for listening, Rafters.
We'll catch you next time.
Unknown (36:31):
Thanks for having me.
Been fabulous.
And a bucket list item tickedoff.
(36:53):
Record a podcast.
Thanks ladies.
I love it.
Thanks bitches.
That's what I should say.
Thanks bitches.
Thanks bitches.
Thanks bitches.
Bitches out.
Bitches out.
Hi Rafters, before this episode begins, we just
want to warn you that, as usual,this episode contains adult
language and concepts.
Kate Kirwin (00:21):
For centuries, women have been taught that we
are each other's worst enemies.
But in our experience, womenare more like otters than queen
bees.
Female otters...
Bitches, if you will, joinhands with each other to create
rafts that stop them fromdrifting apart and losing each
other while they're asleep.
Just like a literal raft ofbitches, our experience has been
(00:41):
that thriving women often havea tight-knit community of other
women who've helped them getthere by providing information
and support along the way andmaking sure that we all stay
afloat.
Welcome to the Raft of Bitchespodcast.
My co-host today is RickiBarnes.
Fun fact, she walks her catwith a leash.
Ricki Barnes (01:03):
That's right, I absolutely do.
Just the one though, I've gotseveral others and there's only
one that's allowed outside.
My co-host today is Kate and afun fact about Kate is that she
once did a four kilometre walkwhile hooping a hula hoop to
raise money for Zonta House.
I did.
We're very excited to have aguest with us today, the
(01:25):
wonderful Sam Brown.
Sam is the self-confessed queenof getting shit done.
She's been part of so manystart-ups and scale-ups over the
last two decades of her careerand describes herself as a bit
of a unicorn hunter, having beenpart of two West Australian
unicorns, and it's always on thelookout for more.
Welcome to the podcast, Sam.
Sam Brown (01:45):
Thanks for having me, Kate and Ricki.
Kate Kirwin (01:48):
So we thought we'd kick off with a little bit of an
icebreaker.
I believe you have two truthsand a lie for
Sam Brown (01:54):
I do.
And you get to pick.
Ricki Barnes (01:57):
Y eah, we're excited to hear this one because
we feel it's going to be quitedifficult with Sam's, shall
Sam Brown (02:04):
My varied background.
So one fact is I have givenmouth to gill resuscitation to a
fish.
One is I have been skydivingand one is I have been to
culinary school.
Ricki Barnes (02:21):
Oh, hell. I mean, I'm going to go out on a limb
and say I reckon the fish one istrue.
I'm just starting there and I'mlike, yep, true, definitely.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Sam Brown (02:33):
It is true.
Ricki Barnes (02:35):
Okay, all right.
Now it's a 50-50.
It is a 50-50.
I reckon she hasn't beenskydiving.
Yeah, out of all those things,it's the most Sam thing to do
and so therefore I feel likeit's a bit of a little red
herring.
A little red herring, yeah.
Sam Brown (02:48):
No, I have been skydiving.
I have not been to culinaryschool.
Ricki Barnes (02:52):
But is it on the list?
Sam Brown (02:53):
It's on the bucket list.
Kate Kirwin (02:54):
Great.
Do you have a particular thingthat you would study at culinary
school if you went?
Sam Brown (02:59):
Knife skills.
I know that's weird.
I'd like to learn how to chop
Kate Kirwin (03:04):
Today we're going to explore a little bit about
alternative pathways to success.
I've known you, Sam, a longtime now.
Sam Brown (03:11):
It has been a while.
Kate Kirwin (03:12):
Nine, ten years.
Yeah.
And I think that we were taughta lot that somehow our lives
are supposed to be this superlinear progression that we do
school, university, job,accelerate through jobs, get to
success.
And there's this magical, youknow, place at the end where
you're a successful person.
But I don't think life's likethat.
(03:33):
And so I'm really curious tohear a little bit about what
your journey has been like,where you've gone, how you got
to where you are.
Sam Brown (03:43):
Hard work and determination.
It's as simple as that.
Common sense.
I am not university qualified.
I do have a certificate inaquaculture.
So I am an aquaculturalist bytrade and hence the mouth to
gill.
Ricki Barnes (04:00):
Of course, yes, that all makes sense.
Sam Brown (04:02):
It happened to be our breeding stock of pink snapper
that we had down at FremantleTAFE and we had a power outage.
Ricki Barnes (04:09):
Can I just ask, was the manoeuvre successful?
Sam Brown (04:12):
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
Great work.
It was great.
She's a lifesaver.
I was literally a lifesaver.
I liked different things.
So I spent a lot of time inautomotive and insurance in my
really early days of my career,just trying to work out who I
am.
I don't conform to largecorporations.
So people that know me willknow that that's just not who I
am.
(04:32):
And that's how I naturallystarted to fall into the startup
culture.
It was one of my mother's groupladies.
Her husband had a tech startupbusiness that he was putting a
house in Australia for a UKcompany, a development house.
And he asked me to come in anddo some testing.
And I'm like, sure.
Our babies were little, noproblems.
(04:53):
Come in and test some medicalsoftware for him.
And that started my entirejourney into tech.
And I loved it.
Absolutely loved it.
Was with the company for quitea few years.
Left that company when the GFChit and we shut the Australian
office down, rehomed all of mystaff.
We had 60 staff at the time.
And one of the recruitersactually said to me, oh, could
you do me a favour and do asix-week stint at Nearmap while
(05:17):
their office manager is awayjust to give me a hand?
And I'm like, sure, noproblems.
And that started my firstunicorn, which was Nearmap.
And I just progressed my waythrough there.
Migrated the company to Sydney.
Helped with the migration whenthey first started their
operations in the US.
And then it was time for me tomove on.
Rolled into VGW at Spacecubewhere the company was very,
(05:41):
very, very young.
And I came in just generally tohelp them with their
operations.
And that just led to a sevenyear crazy ride.
That's become my secondunicorn.
Ricki Barnes (05:55):
Can we just quickly define, just in case
people aren't familiar, what aunicorn is in this context?
Sam Brown (06:01):
So a unicorn is a business that is worth a billion
dollars.
So when I first started atNearmap, never in our wildest
dreams did we think the companywould become a billion dollar
company.
Same with VGW.
All we wanted to do was makesome money, make some customers
happy.
But it was a billion dollarcompany after I left.
Both companies were a billiondollar company after I left.
(06:21):
I come in specifically atStartup and Scale Up.
Once the business is rocking asusual, I'm not your girl.
It's time for somebody else tocome in and run into that.
What we're
Ricki Barnes (06:31):
alternative pathways to success.
You've already told us youdidn't go to university.
I would say...
From my point of view, it seemslike there is a huge focus on
higher education in Australia.
I think we're one of the mosteducated countries in the world.
We have a particularly highnumber of women who have degrees
in Australia.
And I think sometimes it feelslike, especially for young
(06:55):
people, that is the only pathwayto success, particularly in the
kind of industries that you'veended up in.
So maybe there are otheroptions for more trades-based
things.
But I think for a lot of youngpeople, it seems like university
is the be all and end all.
Yeah.
What's your kind of take onthat?
As you say yourself, you'dnever went
Sam Brown (07:15):
to university.
No.
And I have encouraged mychildren not to go to university
either.
I believe if you have aDedicated pathway.
You want to become a doctor.
Absolutely.
The only way to do that is viauniversity.
I didn't ever want to be adoctor.
I didn't know what I wanted todo.
I still don't know what I wantto do.
I'm just going to be this womanthat comes in and fixes chaos
(07:36):
and fires and mayhem.
That's what I want to do.
There is nothing they can teachme in university to do that.
It is common sense.
It is a deep understanding ofknowing what I can fix and what
I can't fix and making sure thatI surround myself with people
that can fix what I can't.
And once you've got that, onceyou've learnt that and you
(07:57):
surround yourself with the rightpeople, you can solve any
problem out there.
And how did you learn that?
There's no right answer to thatone, right?
It's a lot of trial and error.
It's a lot of saying yes whensomeone says we've got a
problem, can you help me?
Yes.
Did I know that I could helpthem?
Hell no.
Still did it.
Bumbled my way through.
It was fake it till you makeit.
(08:19):
There was a lot of fake it tillyou make it.
Literally walking in to dopresentations and they're like,
where are your slideshow?
And I'm like, yeah, I don't doslideshows.
48-year-old woman, I have neverproduced a PowerPoint
presentation.
I will never produce aPowerPoint presentation.
If only I could say the same.
In my mind and the way that Iroll, if I can't articulate to
(08:41):
you what I'm trying to saywithout having a PowerPoint
presentation, I don't know mycontent.
Now, everybody rolls different.
I am a very hands-on person.
I'm a build you from the groundup.
I surround myself with teams ofsmarter than me people and make
sure that anybody that I hirehas a heart and soul.
(09:04):
And if you have a heart andsoul and you genuinely care, I
can teach you anything.
I can't teach you to genuinelycare.
My focus has always been in thecustomer service operations
space.
So yes, I could go and get myMBA in business.
And yes, I could go and become,you know, operational
excellence.
Or I can use some common sense,know that the customer is 99.5%
(09:27):
of the time right, and listento their feedback to make our
products better or to make myservice better or to genuinely
make our business better.
And that's what I've tended tohave done.
You
Kate Kirwin (09:41):
touched on a lot there.
One of the things that I reallylove about you, Sam, is how
real and authentic you are andjust tell it how it is and not
get swept up in all of the waythat it's supposed to be, the
right way of doing things.
In researching this, I waslooking at some of the crazy
titles that you've givenyourself over the years.
So I found Queen of GettingShit Done, Culture Queen, Chief
(10:04):
Awesome Officer, ChiefFirefighter.
Are there any more crazy titlesyou have?
Sam Brown (10:08):
Mum.
Um's a pretty crazy one.
Yeah, Chief Wonder Woman.
Chief Wonder Woman was inthere.
That was from my staff in thePhilippines at VGW.
And do you know what?
It comes from the staff.
To be fair, most of thosetitles I've been given, they're
not ones that I've pickedmyself.
I'm not the most professionalperson in the room.
I will never be the mostprofessional person in the room.
(10:30):
It's just not who I am.
This is why I am not cut outfor big corporates.
I don't like towing the line.
I have a potty mouth.
I really do, just in caseanybody didn't know that about
me.
I totally do.
Kate Kirwin (10:43):
You're on the right podcast.
Sam Brown (10:44):
I'm on the right podcast.
But for me, if I can't makesure that the culture within my
team is one of safe space andconstant progression of your
path, I will move heaven andearth for you to progress in
your role, then what am I doingas a leader?
Unknown (11:05):
Yeah.
Sam Brown (11:06):
So all of my staff have always been upskilled and
uptrained.
And I always promote fromwithin before I go outside to
give people a career path.
And if they want to move from,I don't want to do operations
anymore.
I want to now be a tester.
I will move you to a tester.
I'll put you through thetraining.
So I think those types ofthings genuinely start to make
(11:29):
you a leader that gets titleslike that.
Kate Kirwin (11:31):
How do you show up with that kind of authenticity
in your work?
Sam Brown (11:35):
It's just who I am.
It is just honestly who I wakeup and that's just who I am.
I'm a naturally bright andbubbly person anyway.
I do like a lot of chaos, so Itend to attract chaos.
I am epic under pressure.
It's one thing I am very proudof.
I am pretty good underpressure.
I've had A lot of hard thingshappen in my life.
(11:57):
It hasn't been an easy life.
We talk about this linear path.
My path is anything but linear.
It was 10 steps backwards forthree steps forward and then
steps sideways.
I have changed my field.
I've always been operations andI've always been customer
service, but I've been inautomotive and in aerial
(12:18):
imagery, in online gaming, inmedical software, identity
verification.
Now I'm going back into cybersecurity.
So it's been so varied, but theprinciples are fundamental.
They don't change.
Love your customer, love yourteam, be a nice human.
If you can do those threethings, you've nailed it.
Ricki Barnes (12:38):
Can I ask, has there ever been a time that
you've felt that you haven'tbeen able to show up as
yourself?
Sam Brown (12:46):
Yep.
Ricki Barnes (12:46):
And what did you do about that?
Sam Brown (12:48):
I was really vocal, really vocal.
So I would get on Slack and I'mlike, guys, I'm having a really
low day today.
Nothing to do with anythinghere.
I'm just not my normal self andit's okay.
And we roll on through and thenmy staff would bring me cups of
tea or They'd bring me freshtea and flowers, like my two
favourite things on the planet,and champagne.
(13:08):
They would bring them.
But then they're all sothankful that I can say it's
okay to have a bad day becauseit is okay to have a bad day.
And unfortunately we have asociety now that has a lot of
mental health problems and a lotof people are too scared to
talk about it.
I don't want you to be tooscared to talk about it.
If you're having a shit day,let me know.
(13:30):
I'll do everything in my powerto make it better.
But some days I can't because Idon't have it in me.
I might not have slept verywell.
There might be a problembrewing that I don't have the
immediate answer to.
And so then I don't feel likeI'm actually showing up as my
true self.
That's okay.
But in a day or two's time,once I've worked through that,
no, I'm back.
(13:50):
And everyone knows I'm back andthey can hear me coming down
the street.
So it's about being honest andreal.
Kate Kirwin (13:57):
You touched on before that it hasn't always
been easy.
I'd love to hear about some ofthe challenges along the way.
I think we sugarcoat and lookat the positives and the
highlight reel, but for everyhighlight, there's a low light.
Can you tell us about some ofthe challenges?
Sam Brown (14:13):
Yeah.
I had a medical episode at VGW.
I'd been at VGW for about sixyears, five and a half, six
years at this point.
And we were going through aepically hard time.
Our payment provider that ourcustomers purchased packages
through had given us notice andwe had to bring in a new payment
provider and the whole businesswas up in arms about it.
(14:34):
And because my staff are frontfacing, my staff were all of the
brunt of that.
And I had a heart attackhalfway through a transition
period.
It was really hard.
I went to hospital.
My mum was working for me atthe time.
She wanted to come to hospital.
I'm like, I need you to go towork and stand up.
You have to go to work.
(14:55):
Dad will meet me at thehospital.
It's okay.
And I had to have six weeksoff.
And it was a stress-inducedheart attack.
But it did damage my heart.
So I had to then be verycareful about the stress levels.
And that was one of thecatalysts for the point for me
where this is just a bit ofbusiness as usual now.
Yes, that was a criticalincident that happened.
(15:15):
While I was handling thesituation really well, it was so
much pressure that I had put onmyself to make sure that my
team were protected and my bodyjust said enough was enough.
But I came back from it and Isurvived.
You know, many people haven't.
But it changed the way that Ideal now with stressful
situations.
(15:35):
I had to start to put someprocesses into play that said,
all right...
you now need to go and take along bath and read a book.
I love a good bath and I love agood book without the glass of
wine.
Sure.
So,
Ricki Barnes (15:47):
yeah.
And do you have, I guess,advice for women who might be
under a lot of pressure, under alot of stress?
I think women are particularlygood at putting themselves under
stress and pressure as well asall the external pressure that
we're under all the time.
Any advice for people to findtheir way to cope with it in a
more healthy sort of way.
Sam Brown (16:07):
The advice that I was given was if I didn't find a
way to relax, I would turn backup at the hospital with another
heart attack that I wouldn'thave survived.
And I said to the cardiologist,I don't relax.
I work.
I'm a single mum, two youngchildren, and it's a start-up.
It was a crazy start-up.
(16:28):
We did stupid hours.
And he went, go for a walk,read a book, take a bath.
So I did all three.
I have many a raft in my lifeand I have different rafts for
different things.
I have...
rafts that are my happy raftsand I have rafts that are my sad
rafts and I've got rafts thathave been with me for like 22
years and I've got new rafts butI found a raft that I was
(16:52):
comfortable to talk with to sayhey I'm not okay I thought I was
okay but I'm actually not okaythey didn't judge me they still
love me they're here to supportme they cook me a meal they
invite me out for dinner so itwas getting back to reality so
finding your reality because Nojob on the planet is worth a
(17:13):
heart attack.
Ricki Barnes (17:15):
Definitely.
Do you want to give a shout outto the people who are in that
raft that supported you at thattime?
Sam Brown (17:21):
Yes.
So I have an amazing mother'sgroup who have been with me for
22.
Our oldest children are 22.
And those women are from alldifferent walks of life.
We've got women who are inbusiness like me, women who have
been in tech startups.
We've got stay-at-home mums.
We've got women who have theirown businesses.
(17:41):
And they...
I wouldn't be here withoutthem, actually.
They're my for every people.
They're my for every raft.
And we've had people that havemoved to the East Coast.
They're still here.
We've had births.
We've had deaths.
We've had loss of children.
We've had divorces andmarriages and licenses and 18th
(18:02):
and 21sts.
And now we're at the stagewhere all of our children are
now getting partners and we'rewaiting for the first
engagement.
So it's exciting times.
But yeah, without those women,I definitely wouldn't be here.
It's incredible having thatfriendship last so long.
Yep.
And you know what it is?
It's communication.
It's time.
In the early days when ourbabies were little and none of
(18:24):
us knew what we wanted to dowith a career, it was Keely
whose husband Sam said to me,come and do some testing for me.
And Sam really sort ofskyrocketed my passion for tech.
But it came out of my mother'sgroup, Chance Meeting.
In a suburb that I didn't evenlive in, I ended up in a manning
mother's group like 25 minutesaway.
(18:44):
It was just random and flukeand I fell in love with these
women and here we are.
Kate Kirwin (18:50):
So cool.
I've had the pleasure of, I feellike I've seen a lot of the
journey of your kids growing upinto the young adults they are
now.
You've been a single mum formost of your career.
Yeah.
What's that journey been like?
And do you have any lessonsthat you want to share with our
audience?
Sam Brown (19:07):
It's been hard.
My partner passed away, I was34 and the children were very
young, so in primary school.
And it was a very unexpectedheart attack on the way home
from work.
And it was hard.
It was really hard.
I took a couple of months,three months off work and then
said to my boss at Nearmap atthe time, Can't afford to not
(19:28):
work anymore.
He'd paid me the whole waythrough, but that's not me.
That's not who I am.
I need to work for my money.
And he said to me, I'll moveyou into a sales role, make
sales and renew licenses ofNearmap with state, federal and
local governments, and I'll payyour commission.
And I'm like, I don't know howto sell.
(19:50):
And he went, this is the onlyway you're going to make money.
I'm like, okay.
I trust you.
So he put me on a trainingcourse to learn 101 sales.
And my first commission checkwas, I think it was like $500.
And I took my CEO and his wifeout for dinner to say thank you.
Then I just started to claw myway.
I landed a deal with a federaldepartment.
(20:12):
And that was my biggestcommission check that actually
paid for my partner's funeral.
So it was hard, right?
Yeah.
But you've got to show up.
You can't not.
You've got to just keep going.
You've just got to and haveyour bad days because there were
days I'd sit in the office andcry, as you do.
The school would ring and say,come pick your kids up because
they're just not coping.
(20:32):
But you had to show up.
It's been 13 years and I'mstill teary.
Thank you
Kate Kirwin (20:40):
for sharing that with us.
Yes.
I feel a little teary too.
I know, it's terrible.
But I think it's so importanttelling those stories.
Yeah.
Sam Brown (20:47):
Yep.
But it's constantly showing up.
I didn't want my kids to go,mum had a bad thing and
therefore she fell in a hole andshe couldn't get out of bed.
Nope.
She got up, she brushed off herknees and she kept on rocking.
And yeah, we've had some toughtimes.
Who has a death of a partnerand a heart attack within a few
years of each other?
(21:07):
It's hard.
But I'm still here and I'mstill happy and I'm still
kicking goals, you know.
Kate Kirwin (21:16):
S o inspiring.
Honestly, so inspiring.
Sam Brown (21:19):
No, I think, do you know what?
It's nothing...
different than anybody elsewould do honestly people have
bad shit happen to them theyhave car accidents they have
cancer and sickness and peoplehave that sort of stuff that
happens and they just get onwith it yes we we moan and yes
sometimes you can't see thelight at the end of that tunnel
(21:39):
but you know it's there and it'sabout making sure again
surrounding yourself with thosepeople that when I do stumble
you're all there to pick me upand hold me and We all still
rock on, right?
We still love each other.
And I think it's about notovercomplicating it.
Don't go out and read thosebooks.
Just use your common sense.
(22:00):
Surround yourself with yourgirlfriends or your guy friends
or whoever it is, your parents,whoever.
Your raft.
Your raft.
And that's it.
And lean on them for support.
So do you think attitude youhave of, you know, it will be
all right, there is light at theend of the tunnel, right?
it's going to happen is one ofthe reasons that the startups
(22:22):
you've been involved in havebeen so successful?
Yeah, absolutely.
One of my big catch cries isthat I don't fail, right?
We all fail.
We all fail at things.
Yes, I could have been betterat something.
Yes, that didn't go to plan.
But again, there's always alight at the end of that tunnel.
I am an optimist.
There is nothing in this worldthat I cannot do.
(22:44):
Nothing.
I believe I could do it.
I mean, okay, maybe I can't goto space.
But, you know, maybe if I throwenough money at it.
Maybe in a few years' time.
You never know.
But there's nothing in thisworld that I can't do.
And I apply that logic to everystartup I come into.
Some of those startups I comein and it's just a mess.
with founders that have gotreally strong beliefs in how
(23:06):
they want something to go.
But fundamentally, it's justnot how life works.
My job is quite often aboutcorralling them into my way of
thinking, which I know makes mesound really like a dick, but it
is my way of thinking that willtake the staff and that product
and that business on a journeyto get to where it I'm not a
(23:30):
one-man band.
All of these startups have hadhundreds of people to make them
successful.
But when you've got a championin there that is constantly
pushing the good fight, thatyes, we're going to get there,
yes, we're going to get there,rallying the troops, it makes
you want to show up and do yourbest.
Ricki Barnes (23:48):
Have there been any startups that you've been
involved in that haven't gone asyou'd like them to go, that you
gave up on, that you...
you know, decided I reallycan't help you.
Sam Brown (23:59):
Yes, there has been one.
I beat myself up about this onecompany for a really long time.
It was one of the saddest daysof my career because I went home
feeling like a failure.
However, I didn't actuallyfail.
I just realised that that wasjust not my person.
At the end of the day, I am noteverybody's cup of tea and it
(24:22):
is okay to ...it is okay if wedon't get on fabulously.
For me it was about recognisingthat the way that I do
things...
...and the way that otherpeople do things don't always
align.
I am pretty brash.
I'm pretty forward.
I don't mince my words.
(24:42):
I am here to make yousuccessful.
I am here to make you shine.
That's all I'm here for.
And it's your business.
But if I'm not your person...
then it's okay for us not to bein this road.
Kate Kirwin (24:56):
The theme that we're exploring is about the
alternative pathways to success.
What does success actually looklike for you?
Do you have a definition ofwhat success i s?
Sam Brown (25:05):
Making others shine.
I am successful when everybodyaround me is successful.
It's as simple as that.
Success in a business is havinga business that I can walk out
the back end of and go, ha ha,look what I just did.
We've taken it from this idea,this conception, this business
that isn't making any money andnow we've got this massive beast
(25:26):
that's super successful withthousands of customers that love
it.
That's successful.
But that's not my success.
My success is all the staffthat I've hired and helped and
grown and mentored and coachedand loved over the years and
their growth and their successis what?
I determine my
Kate Kirwin (25:46):
That's so beautiful.
Sam Brown (25:48):
My very first employer, way back when, when I
was very young, said to me, tellme how much you need to earn to
be successful.
And I said to him, it's notabout the money.
He went, you're not going toget very far in life, are you?
Like, yeah, of course I am.
He said to me, no, no, no, youneed to have financial goals.
You need to determine successand finance.
(26:09):
And that stuck with me becauseMoney is not a currency for me.
Time is a currency.
So you giving your time to memeans that I'm successful
because you want to spend timewith me.
Ricki Barnes (26:23):
We've talked a lot today about, you know, the
various different paths thatyour career has taken, which has
obviously been a lot of change.
You've changed industries.
You've done a lot of differentthings.
What would your advice be topeople who are feeling stuck in
their careers?
Sam Brown (26:40):
Change.
Move.
Take the different role.
It's not about the money.
Don't chase the title.
Chase the passion.
Chase the joy.
What's the thing that you wakeup in the morning going, fuck,
that's the best thing on theplanet.
That.
Go find that job.
Now, maybe it's in data.
Maybe it's in tech.
Maybe it's in, maybe you wantto be a dental hygienist.
(27:03):
Go be a dental hygienist.
There is nothing stopping youon this planet by yourself.
and that limiting belief inwhat you can achieve.
I know that I can achievegreatness, but my greatness and
your greatness are going to bevery different.
Wake up, decide what you wantto do, make the plan, action the
plan.
That's it.
It's as simple as that.
(27:23):
Don't overcomplicate it.
Is it as simple as that?
It is honestly as simple asthat.
I have been quite wealthy.
I have been very broke where myhouse was going up for
mortgagee sale because Icouldn't make my mortgage
payments.
I've been on all aspects.
I've lived in a rental.
I've had moments where I'mlike, this is too hard.
(27:44):
I just need to move my childrenback in with mum and dad.
I've been in all those spaces,but never once did I ever think
I can't do this because I know Ican.
It's just about how deep do Ihave to dig and how much do I
have to change what I'mcurrently doing to get me to the
first hurdle?
Because once you've jumped thefirst hurdle, the second one's
(28:05):
easy.
The third one's even easier.
And it's all just about puttingthose little hurdles into play.
Go jump them.
We can all jump.
It's just about how high.
Ricki Barnes (28:13):
Excellent way of putting it.
We've got a Sam Brown pep talk.
I'm going to listen back tothis whenever I need to feel
energized in my career.
Sam Brown (28:23):
I'm very good at prompting everybody else up,
brooding up the spirits.
I'm pretty good at that.
Kate Kirwin (28:28):
Do you have advice for people that have a goal in
mind of where they want to bebut they're not qualified to get
there?
They haven't tried it.
How do they realize that g oal?
Sam Brown (28:41):
Use your network.
Absolutely reach out to yournetwork.
And if you don't have a largenetwork, reach out to someone in
your network who does have alarge network.
We all know somebody who knowssomebody who can get you in as
an intern for a day.
Come spend the day in the lifeof to see if that is something
you want to do.
Find places like She Codes whowill actually show you what
(29:03):
coding looks like.
There is a lot of these around.
And genuinely, putting it outthere.
I'm a big believer of if youput it out to the universe, it
will provide.
So for me, the more you'retalking about whatever it is
that you're wanting to change orlook into, it just starts to
turn up on all your feeds andyou will naturally find that
(29:23):
those people are starting tosurround you.
And be ballsy.
Ask for help.
Go and say to your employer,hey, not loving it, thinking I
might want to be in thatdepartment.
Can I do a day a week and seeif I like it?
What's the worst they're goingto say?
No.
Go find a company who says yes.
Because if that company saysno, that's not the company for
Ricki Barnes (29:44):
Sounds like really what we need to do essentially
is channel our inner Sam Brown.
Kate Kirwin (29:49):
Yeah.
There's a reason to have her onmy like little advisory board,
personal advisory
Sam Brown (29:58):
I am on quite a few people's personal advisory
boards.
Look, at the end of the day, wecan't do this alone.
We have to do this with a raft.
So make sure, again, yousurround yourself with the right
raft and the sky's the limit.
I love that.
Kate Kirwin (30:14):
On your LinkedIn, I found while researching for
this podcast, a quote thatyou've shared, which was, your
smile is your logo, yourpersonality is your business
card, and how you make othersfeel becomes your trademark.
I love it so much.
Can you tell me a little bitabout what that means to you and
how that's played out over yourcareer?
Yeah.
Sam Brown (30:33):
So I don't even know where I found that, but that has
played out several times.
I turned 40 a while ago and Istarted planning my 40th
birthday right at the lastminute because that's how I roll
and very quickly realized therewas 250 people on the
invitation list and everybodywas like you can't have 250
(30:57):
people I'm like of course I canwatch me and it was all
different rafts of my workingcareer my family everybody was
there but the big topic thatkept coming up all the time is I
love how I feel when I've leftyou When I go home, I'm still
buzzing because of being aroundyou and your personality and
your loudness.
And I am very, very loud.
(31:18):
I think having constantly heardthat my whole life, I've had a
lot of people say, you're tooloud.
You just need to tone it down.
I will never tone it down.
If I am too loud for you, seeya.
I don't need you in my spaceand that's okay.
And I get that you can't alwaysmake everybody happy.
But I think I do a pretty epicjob of making people happy.
(31:41):
I mix my personal life with mybusiness life because they're
all ingrained.
So for me, what you see is whatyou get, whether I'm in
business or I'm in personal,whether I'm at a funeral,
whether I'm at a wedding, I amjust me, just me.
Don't change.
That's my advice to your raftof listeners.
Do not change.
(32:02):
Be authentically yourself anddo not apologise for that.
Don't apologise.
That's
Ricki Barnes (32:08):
excellent advice.
Speaking of advice, what is thebest advice that you've ever
received?
Sam Brown (32:15):
Don't tone yourself down.
Same advice.
Same advice.
Don't tone yourself down.
It was from the most randomperson who didn't even work with
me.
And she said, beunapologetically yourself.
Never tone yourself down.
And it's just stuck with me.
And I'll never forget her,ever.
(32:37):
You will never go wrong in thisworld if you are yourself.
You may lose jobs because youare too loud, too big, too
forward, too this.
Fuck that.
Pick the right company.
Pick the right people tosupport you.
Don't tone yourself down for acompany.
It's just not worth it.
Life is too short.
What's next for you?
(32:59):
Wow.
My third unicorn.
It's a cyber security company.
We are in the scam preventionarm of cyber security.
So it's about notifying youwhen you are accessing a scam
link or a fraudulent site or ayour toll is overdue, pay your
(33:19):
toll.
You know, your Coles orderwasn't paid correctly, pay your
Coles order.
When you click on those links,we tell you that they're a
suspicious site.
And the thing I love about thisis it goes with my personal
morals and brand of protectingthe everyday user.
Part of my customer servicejourney is about making sure
(33:39):
that people are heard, peopleare listened to and people are
protected.
We know that scams are rippingmillions of dollars off people
globally.
And when Joe came to me withthis and said, hey, I want you
on board, I jumped.
And at that stage, I was withtwo other startups.
So I had three startups on thego and it was a little much.
(34:01):
And now I'm just solely doingone.
We are getting ready to launchour product.
I said to Joe, you can't keepme because once I get this
product up and running, I willgo and do something different.
So he came up with 10 otherbusiness ideas that all stem off
this one.
And he's like, so we'll getthis one up and then we'll move
to the next one, right?
And then the next one, right?
(34:21):
So it's very exciting.
Ricki Barnes (34:23):
So with your challenge, is there anything
that you need?
Who would you need to add toyour raft?
Is there anything that...
our raft of bitches, ourlisteners, could do to help you?
Sam Brown (34:34):
What I do need is businesses.
I need businesses that want toprotect their business from
scams.
I need mums and dads.
I need families that want togift a loved one.
One of the products we've builtwithin our extension is Gift a
Loved One so that I could buy itfor my mum and dad who might be
(34:54):
a little bit older and don'tnecessarily understand.
And that just means thateverybody is safe and protected.
So I would ask your raft thatif they're interested in
protecting themselves from anonline scam, that they go and
look at safer.com.
That's S-A-P-H-E-R.com.
Amazing.
Kate Kirwin (35:14):
And how can our listeners find more about you
and what you're up to?
Sam Brown (35:19):
I do have a pretty decent LinkedIn presence, Sam
Brown-Perth.
I am a lover of West Tech Fest.
So come and have a champagnewith me.
I'm the noisy one at the backof the room in every session.
If any of your raft need somementoring, want some advice,
just genuinely want to know whattheir next steps could be if it
(35:41):
was me, happy to have a chat.
Ricki Barnes (35:44):
Thanks for joining us today, Sam.
We loved hearing from you andloved hearing all of your sage
advice.
I'm sure there's lots of peoplewho would like to reach out and
probably take advantage of amentoring session with you or,
you know, just a pep talk even.
Unfortunately, once again,we're otterly out of time.
Kate Kirwin (36:02):
That's right.
But if you didn't go touniversity but have a banger
career, we would love to hearfrom you.
Ricki Barnes (36:08):
And where can people reach us?
Kate Kirwin (36:10):
We're on Instagram at Raft Podcast or you can email
us at hello at raftpodcast.com.
Ricki Barnes (36:18):
And for previous episodes or to find out more,
don't forget to check out ourwebsite raftpodcast.com or find
us wherever you downloadpodcasts.
Kate Kirwin (36:26):
Thanks for listening, Rafters.
We'll catch you next time.
Unknown (36:31):
Thanks for having me.
Been fabulous.
And a bucket list item tickedoff.
(36:53):
Record a podcast.
Thanks ladies.
I love it.
Thanks bitches.
That's what I should say.
Thanks bitches.
Thanks bitches.
Thanks bitches.
Bitches out.
Bitches out.
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