September 10, 2025 • 41 mins
Special RU OK? Day Edition – With Courtney Chapman
In this special presentation for RU OK? Day, Raider Nick sits down with Courtney Chapman — a passionate advocate doing incredible work to raise awareness and support mental health in our community. Together they explore the power of conversation, how to check in with loved ones, and practical ways we can all play a part in breaking the stigma around mental health. An inspiring and timely chat reminding us that a simple question can truly change a life.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Well, September is the time of new season, the time
of change, and of course it comes September eleven, known
for obvious reasons. But we won't go there, but we'll
go here. Are you Okay Day? Where launches that day
where you do ask your friends, your colleague, your neighbor, anyone,
anyone in your circle? Are you okay? And there's a
(00:21):
woman walking around in camera, flying around in Canberra, I
should say, doing wonderful things around this space. Hello to you, Courtney,
Hello Dank. Are you Okay Day? What does it mean?
Speaker 2 (00:33):
What does it mean? Are you Okay? Day? Is a
meaningful start to a conversation. It is born out of
someone who lost their father tragically to suicide and they
wanted to know what more could they do? How could
they prevent this from happening to other people? And so
(00:55):
this movement began.
Speaker 1 (00:57):
Yeah, so it's been going around for a while now, hasn't.
Speaker 2 (00:58):
It since two thousand and nine?
Speaker 1 (01:00):
So where Yeah? So a good chunk have you noticed?
Have you noticed a change in society? You know, even
on an Australian perspective, a local perspective, having this day?
Speaker 2 (01:14):
Yes, And I think I've also seen what's really interesting
is that day evolve over time? So I can remember
experiencing it in a workplace sense, So you know, the
sort of tokenistic morning teas, the yellow T shirts and
the we love a cupcakes, love the cupcakes. Yeah, and
(01:35):
I can see that over time. Particularly, I would say,
you know, in the last ten years, it has really
evolved into more about resources, it's about education, it's about
I mean, the actual theme for this year is are
you Okay? Any Day? So you know, it's sort of
combats some of that criticism that people might feel around well,
(01:57):
it's just one day. It feels a little bit tokens. Actually,
it's about carrying those conversations forward into every day.
Speaker 1 (02:06):
You hear those stories where people say, we've just finished Christmas,
we're embarking on New Years Eve. Watch in New Year's resolution,
Oh I want to do this, this, this, and this,
And you get that person to say, which is usually me,
I don't need New Year's Eve to do a resolution.
I'll implement them anytime. Is it similar for are you
ok Day? Should we should we be asking a love?
(02:27):
The token is stick ship. We love the token day
because it's better to have none, It's better to have
one than none.
Speaker 2 (02:32):
Absolutely.
Speaker 1 (02:33):
Is it similar? Though? Should we be asking this every day?
Speaker 2 (02:36):
I think that we should be cognizant of it every day,
and we also need to understand what do we do
if someone is not okay? And I think that's the
that's the connective conversation after that, is that if you
genuinely go into a conversation with someone and you're asking
them are you okay? And they respond, actually, no, I'm not,
(02:59):
what do we do then? Yeah? How do we connect
them with support services? How do we be that beautiful,
empathetic and connective ear for them so that they feel
heard and that they feel like they matter and that
maybe they feel like they could stay.
Speaker 1 (03:14):
Totally and on a even just on a kind of
shallower perspective, having just the conversation about something can just
help you just move on to the next day. You
can just process things. It just shakes things up a
little bit and you can feel better. It just kind
of relieves the heaviness. Just having a conversation would be
the starting point to open up a can of worms
(03:36):
to getting better there and to feeling better and to
essentially feel okay.
Speaker 2 (03:41):
Yes, completely, And that's that kind of like connection to community,
you know, is that all of us ultimately want to
know that we're not alone in our pain, and that
we're not the only one that feel these struggles. And
so are You Okay? Day is incredibly connective in that way.
And I recall act my first ever speaking opportunity came
(04:03):
at a workplaces Are You ok Day in twenty eighteen.
So Are You Okaday actually has quite a special place
in my heart because that was the first time I'd
spoken openly about my own mental ill health and the
challenges that I'd faced, no less in a workplace capacity,
which can be incredibly intimidating.
Speaker 1 (04:25):
Why are people so scared about communicating in a world?
I mean that from your experience, what have you seen
so far?
Speaker 2 (04:35):
Yeah, it's a lot to do with the stigma around
mental health, which I feel has evolved so much over time.
We really are seeing mental health in that same vein
as if I said to you, you know, Nick, I
suffer from quite bad anxiety. It's the same as saying Nick,
(04:56):
I have a broken arm. You really want to look
at at the physical and the psychological as one in
the same one to be treated with the same compassion
and empathy and support. But it does stop people that
stigma from actually speaking up, and I know myself I've
experienced that too in the work that I do in
(05:17):
this space as an educator and a speaker, I also
hear that same messaging coming from people who were like,
I didn't know where to turn to. I didn't know
if I'd be taken seriously. I wasn't sure if people
would treat me differently if I was to disclose that
I was struggling with my mental health.
Speaker 1 (05:34):
Yeah, what's the stigma.
Speaker 2 (05:36):
The stigma is that you know there's something wrong with you,
that you're flawed or incapable, particularly in a workplace sense.
I've seen that quite a lot through the work that
I do, that people feel they can't be honest about
their mental health because they might be seen as underperforming.
(05:57):
Or if I'm struggling, it means that I'm not a
worthy person. And all of that is completely untrue, and
that is shifting, which I'm very grateful to see.
Speaker 1 (06:06):
Yeah, it's very big with the boys. And that's whoever
said from the beginning that being a little down on
your ark, or having going for a bad patch, or
having some you know, broken bones, broken limbs, but broken feelings,
whoever said they were bad, you know, and I've always
(06:28):
said it on my perspective. For a guy, you know,
moving forward and actually being open up about that, you
have to choose the lights of being turned off for
a while he is just not working out, you know,
being open about it. For me, there's nothing more strong
and masculine about like wanting to fix that instead of
just like sitting in it and despair. You know, it's like, shit,
(06:50):
I've got to fix this.
Speaker 2 (06:51):
Absolutely. There is a huge amount of strength in reaching
out for support and being vulnerable and open about your experiences.
It's incredibly brave and just to your point, you know,
about experiencing it from that male perspective, it is. It
is masculine, it is you know, we need to we
(07:14):
need to teach our men that it's okay to express
their feelings, in fact, it's needed, and that they don't
have to be these strong, stoic pillars of strength all
the time. Is that they can actually be vulnerable and
lean into those feelings and they are just as much
entitled to support as anybody else is. They don't have
to suffer in silence, and it's not weak to speak.
Speaker 1 (07:36):
Totally and everything you mentioned there is utilizing the masculinity
and utilizing the strength because it's courage. And that's the
thing when you package it that way, and it's like
you put it up against the wall and it's like
unfortunately the old way of thinking, which is evolving as
you mentioned. But yeah, I happy to keep this inside.
You know, they're going to laugh at me and think
(07:57):
that I'm weak and I can't show weakness, and yeah, yeah,
whereas it's the complete opposite.
Speaker 2 (08:06):
It is.
Speaker 1 (08:07):
And there's an old saying is you know, if you
don't know something, you ask a question, don't hold back
because you're only done for that one second. It could
be a situation where you're only hurt for that one second,
because a resolution could be just on the other side
of a conversation. Whether you just feel better for just
getting it off your chest and letting someone else here
(08:27):
and having conversation about it. It helps you just rattle
the cage a little bit move forward, or it can
open up to a rabbit hole of finding a deeper
solution if it's a little bit deeper and darker. Because
we all go through our crap in life. We're all
designed to be plunged here and life's pretty straight without it,
and you be lying to say you haven't been through
any depths of despair and whatnot, whatever you believe in.
(08:50):
So we need to find a solution there, just like
when you have a need to change a tire, just
like when you hurt yourself. You know there's a solution
for everything. And it's great that people like yourself are
going around spreading the messaging and getting in a little
bit more mainstream and more easier to do.
Speaker 2 (09:09):
Absolutely, And I think that that education piece is really
the connector here. So when we are able to normalize
these conversations, we are able to show people that being
vulnerable is powerful, and we're also able to show people
the other side of things that could be waiting for
(09:30):
them when they get the support that they might need.
So in a lot of cases, particularly people who are
experiencing suicidal ideation, they feel like there is no alternative
options and it is a very dark and difficult space
for them, and so for you to be able to
give them that hope and power to say, actually, there
is so much on the other side. There is all
(09:51):
this beautiful support for you. There are people here that
want to see you succeed and care for you. That
can be that message of hope that pulls them through
the other side, and things like are you okay day
spark the conversation. Yes, it might not solve all of
the problems, and I don't think that it intends to
do that, but what you just said, then it sparks something.
(10:11):
It's the conversation, it's the beginning anything to start. If
we can just get started wherever it's going to start
from somewhere, that's right.
Speaker 1 (10:18):
You know, we can't say from zero to one hundred exactly.
You know, we do need to start from somewhere. That's
part of the journey. And you can crawl out of
this stuff. You can crawl out of the funk, you
can crawl out of the dark phases. And it starts
with just a simple conversation and it gets thrown up
all over the place at nauseum and it almost becomes
junk mail, just the conversation. But it is so true.
(10:41):
Just vocalizing you into a world can be the most
all the therapy you need.
Speaker 2 (10:47):
That's right.
Speaker 1 (10:47):
But then once it's out in the open, you realize
and then I don't know, I don't know if anyone,
I don't know if anyone in mankind, in the depth
of human existence, opened up with their vulnerability and laughed
at and said who that's always met with love and support?
(11:08):
Like seriously, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (11:12):
I think that most people will respond in that way.
You know, us as humans and compassionate beings, we want
to support people. And I think when people are experiencing
I would say that that challenging time, that that darkness,
it feels like they're completely alone and nobody else must
(11:34):
be experiencing what I'm experiencing. This is so unique to mesok.
Speaker 1 (11:37):
An isolation around it completely.
Speaker 2 (11:40):
Isolation, and it is and isolation is deadly, you know
in a lot of those cases because when those people
feel like there is no connective community to reach out to,
then they feel lost and there's no anchor, and it's
I don't know what to do, so I'm just going
to sit sort of in my shell and I'm not
going to reach out to people. So in that case,
(12:02):
having someone actually ask you, are you okay?
Speaker 1 (12:06):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (12:06):
It could be just that opening of a door that
lets that person say to you, I'm not doing okay yeah,
you know, and just that is powerful in itself, is
to admit that, you know, I think you think about
sometimes when someone goes, how are you Nick, and you go, yeah,
I'm great, or yeah I'm really good, and you just
off the cuff without even thinking or respond in that way.
(12:29):
I think we all do you know what I do.
Speaker 1 (12:31):
If I'm not feeling it, I've seen better.
Speaker 2 (12:34):
Days, which is you being authentic, and I'll go, really,
are you okay?
Speaker 1 (12:38):
I was like, yeah, I've just got this going on,
and I've just got this stress here and that there,
but you know, I'm working through it. Nothing I can't handle. Yeah,
you know, but that's just me and I've probably you know,
I've learnt the hard way. But that takes time, and
it's just not easy to do that in some people.
And I understand it's not easy for people. That's why
(12:58):
we're here, and it is what you're doing, your wonderful.
Speaker 2 (13:02):
Work hugely because you know, the more that we can
get into those schools and workplaces and change attitudes and
change perspectives and just show people there is a different
way of doing this. You know, it is, with no
word of a lie, life changing for someone. And I've
seen the impact of being an educator in this space
(13:25):
and providing that connective opportunity particularly in schools where you
you know, we learn all kinds of things, you know,
English and maths and science, and it's like, wouldn't it
be great if there was a subject on emotional intelligence
and how to kind of sit with your feelings and
understand them and how to reach out for support, all
of those beautiful things that we probably aren't taught enough.
(13:47):
But I can also see that landscape changing, particularly around
education in Canberra. It's because I'm in those schools helping educate.
Speaker 1 (13:57):
You're part of that shift.
Speaker 2 (13:58):
Absolutely, we are part of the bigger chain.
Speaker 1 (14:00):
How that train it is.
Speaker 2 (14:02):
It is going to be continuing to shift for generations
to come, you know. And if you think about where
that stigma came from, it was those generations before us
that had that sort of have a spoonful of concrete
and get on with life attitude, right like we don't
talk about mental health. Everyone struggles, just get on with life,
stop complaining. And you know what that did. That pushed
(14:23):
down to the generations after them a whole lot of
trauma and feeling like they couldn't be seen and that
they couldn't say how they really felt because it would
be seen as a weakness and I should be able
to just get on with it.
Speaker 1 (14:38):
You mentioned about being seen, and we're leave in a
world now in twenty twenty five where social media, you know,
let's talk about your Instagrams and your tiktoks of the world.
There's a slice of life you look into someone like,
look at this person, and unfortunately, especially going out with
the younger generation, they like to cling onto things and
see that as an example. But if they're in their
(15:00):
own lunch box, they don't fit that example. They think
they're doing life wrong. So there's this weird standard that's
being delivered out there which gets us in our land rooms. Now.
We never had that growing up, but now it's straight
into your land rooms. It's in your back pocket now
for crying out loud. But I'm going to credit yourself.
And it's very commendable that you go out there. I've
(15:22):
seen some of your stuff. You've gone out there and
being really vulnerable, and some people still might view that
as oh, what is she doing? But that's still so
powerful and strong because all the ones that you could,
you know, it's such a big bay world out there,
and anyone that comes across that and sees that says,
you know, what we don't have to look like Kim Kardashian.
(15:43):
Nothing wrong with that, but then you've got vulnerability like yourself.
Showing that vulnerability this is a part of life as well.
You're showing everything, not just that one slide. So yeah,
that's awesome.
Speaker 2 (15:55):
I think that what you've just said there, that it's
a part of life is really powerful because sometimes we forget,
particularly when we're seeing these highlight reels over social media
of people's life and it looks so beautifully created and
they seem like, gosh, they must never have a bad
day in their life, Like how beautiful that they're just
like out in the sunshine, or they're you know, drinking
(16:19):
a mimosa on a beach and they're with their family
and the you know, the dog is running along beside them.
That's so beautiful because a lot of us don't feel
comfortable showing that vulnerability to people because it is a
little bit exposing and it is a little bit being
seen for really who you are. And I'm trying to
shift the narrative around that by showing that vulnerability on
(16:40):
social media to connect with people, to show them that
it's okay, this is life. You know, sometimes we show
up and we're feeling on top of the world and
amazing and like, let's get this. And then other days
we show up and it's like, oh gosh, today feels heavy.
Speaker 1 (16:56):
Well, you mentioned quote unquote highlight real. We should start
doing low light reels.
Speaker 2 (17:03):
Yeah, little low light reel Like where did I had
a really rough day to day? You know, I cried
while I made a piece of peanut butter toast or
whatever it might look like.
Speaker 1 (17:10):
That's why I went the peanut butter because you know, yeah,
I usually go to have a card, but I went
jam today and I tell her today, yeah.
Speaker 2 (17:16):
Because I just needed that little, that comfort treat for myself,
you know. And that's okay. It's okay to show all
aspects of the human experience. And when we subscribe to
this highlight real way of doing life, we're actually doing
ourselves a great disservice.
Speaker 1 (17:33):
Because it's only showing the pleasure. Yes, but it's pleasure.
It's not pleasure or pain. It's pleasure and pain pain.
It's black and white, it's ying and yang. It's never
an awe, it's an end. It is and it's everything.
And I think the more and more we start acknowledging
that are you can to get a little little deeper,
(17:56):
little deep deeper. Yeah, and if you can explore that
there is some beauty on the other side of that,
because they're just parts of yourself that you're ignoring. And
I feel that the stigma could also be constructed in
the world where people are afraid to be judged, but
those ones that they're viewing their source of judgment, that
(18:19):
particular source of judgment, if you will, are probably in
fear of their own pain. So we're just all triggering
each other but keeping it at bay. Yes, which creates chaos.
Speaker 2 (18:33):
It completely does. And we are just showing up with
our wounds and hoping that somebody else accepts us for
those wounds, but sometimes also not quite understanding how we
show up in the world and how that might be
perceived by other people, how we might be putting our
(18:54):
pain on other people as well. And there is a
huge aspect to that healing space there into understanding ourselves
and other people and they're knowing, Okay, this is a
safe place I can be vulnerable, I can reach out
for support. It's okay if I've done things a certain
way for a period of time, I can always turn
(19:14):
things around. It is never too late to change, to
turn things around. We as human beings are beautifully capable
of being adaptable, flexible changing. You know, it's very much
proven that our brain plasticity is. It's not just that
we thought it like tapers off at twenty five. You
absolutely can change your brain. You can change those neural pathways,
(19:34):
you can choose something different for yourself.
Speaker 1 (19:37):
You're not the best. I've got a made of mind.
And he says is he works in like a welfare
space as well, and he's a really successful athlete who's retired.
He says, I love this what he says. He says,
a setback is just an opportunity for a comeback. I
love that a setback is just an opportunity for the comeback.
(20:00):
So every time that you feel that there's a you know,
a setback, we're not feeling the best. This is your
stoppage in play to stop and smell the roses, to
explore and to move into what that is, move into
the funk. Like James Brand always said, you know, you
have to play to the file, feel into it because
(20:20):
you'll be dancing coming out of it.
Speaker 2 (20:22):
Of course. And I feel also style. Yeah, we should
all do a little bit more dancing. I feel like
we can't also appreciate those those beautiful highs and the
lightness without some of those lows and a little bit
of the darkness. You know, you just spoke about the
yin and the yang, and it's that polarity of experience
totally that really makes us appreciate those beautiful things and
(20:45):
maybe seeing those I guess darker times, there's a chance
to regroup, smell the roses, evolve, you know, rather than
being like, oh gosh, why is this happening to me?
Why am I here? Use that as.
Speaker 1 (20:58):
Fuel totally think. I think it's important to try and
find some some stable polarity because sometimes and I think
you just want to kind to go through a flow
of experiencing life with both but not even judging both.
If you say one thing's good, then you're going to
find a bad that I was saying, he's a daily
Lama said, never say you've got a best friend, because
(21:19):
then you're going to create an enemy, you know, So
just living in that middle ground, I feel that's important.
So cashing in the highs but also acknowledging the lows,
enjoying but also understanding I can't do or do some
do some work here, totally, do some digging to the shovel.
Speaker 2 (21:35):
Yeah, And to be quite frank with you, we all
need to get the shovel.
Speaker 1 (21:41):
Shovel.
Speaker 2 (21:42):
We all need to shovel. We have all got parts
of us that, you know, I think we would prefer
to keep hidden. I think there are parts of us
that would really love to see some of that light
and some of that love and care, and that is
all part of you know, that broader sort of healing
journey and being vulnerable and showing up in those ways
(22:03):
and then appreciating where you've come from and where you
were yet to go, because that is very exciting.
Speaker 1 (22:10):
Are you cool? If asked how you got involved in
this kind of work, of course I got you started
on the journey absolutely.
Speaker 2 (22:16):
So what started me with this work was my own
lived experience of mental ill health. And I talked about
doing that speaking event.
Speaker 1 (22:25):
What did that look like, Courtney, for you? If you
don't mammy asking, of.
Speaker 2 (22:28):
Course, So what that looked like for me was I
grew up in an incredibly tumultuous home environment marred by
quite a lot of physical and psychological abuse. So that
really shaped me as a person as I got older
and into those you know, those school years and teenage years,
when I started feeling like something was not quite right.
(22:52):
I felt very different to my peers. I struggled a
lot in social situations. I was quite a recluse. I
would much prefer to read a book by myself, you know,
at lunch times, because I didn't want to interact with people.
I found people a bit frightening. And that is because
I was exposed to this quite horrific environment in my
(23:13):
home life that I actually didn't know how to show
up in the world. I was quite scared, so that level.
I mean, I've experienced, unfortunately, this abuse from when I
was very young upwards until my early early sort.
Speaker 1 (23:31):
Of teen years and important years.
Speaker 2 (23:34):
It's the formative shaping years. When we look back on
how people really end up with developing mental health conditions
when they when they get older, there is a significant
portion of people where it's shaped by childhood trauma. Yes,
there are a number of studies that have been done
(23:54):
over this. One really interesting one is called the ACE study,
which is Adverse Childhood Experiences. And I remember reading a
book on this and the book title just really taught,
you know, really grabbed me. And I thought to myself,
what is an adverse childhood experience? And as I started
(24:15):
reading through the book. At the start of the book,
they gave you, I guess a sort of self quiz
and it said, if you scored more than ten in
this you know quiz, basically, you were going to have
some pretty horrendous life outcomes for yourself later on. And
they'd studied, you know, these children through childhood into adulthood
(24:36):
and the manifestation of not only psychological illness, but also
physical illness, so autoimmune conditions, heart disease, cancer, all kinds
of horrific things were happening to these children who had
been exposed to abuse. And it was things like, you know,
parents that were going through a divorce. That is an
adverse childhood experience. And in some cases it can be
(24:58):
handled quite beautifully, it can be very traumatic. Then there
were the more insiduous things like being exposed to physical harm,
having a parent or caregiver who was utilizing drugs, or
who had been incarcerated. There's quite a number of different
aspects that they tracked. And I remember doing this quiz
and I think I scored a seven, and I thought
(25:21):
to myself, oh my goodness, like it was out of ten.
That was a high score. And I was so bereft
at the time because they made you do the score
to start with, and then they explained in the book like, actually, no,
you can. You can change things for yourself. But at
the time of reading that book, I had been diagnosed
with anxiety, depression, and complex post traumatic stress disorder, as
(25:45):
well as an autoimmune condition. So I was like, oh
my goodness, I am this book like I am everything
that they studied. It's happening to me in real time.
This is not just a you know, a concept. I'm
living this reality right now. And that was incredibly confronting
for me to read.
Speaker 1 (26:02):
So he scored a seven and that would have been
but something tells me that you would have been Okay,
he's my solution. Now where do I go from here?
What's next? I think I need more.
Speaker 2 (26:17):
I'm a very research driven sort of person. I love
to know things. I love to understand things, and that comes,
I think a lot from that childhood trauma peace, where
I really wanted to understand the motivations, you know, of
the person who perpetrated this abuse towards me so that
I might be able to unpack it and work out
(26:37):
why did that happen. So throughout the course of that,
I've done lots of different, you know, research into healing modalities,
and I started off in traditional talk therapy, so psychotherapy.
I still see a psychologist to this day. They are
a beautiful supportive part of that journey for me. And
I have seen different psychologists over the years who have
(26:59):
had different specialties. So it's kind of like when you
go to a psychologist, they might specialize in a particular
modality and it's about finding the one that works best
for you. And I want to make a really big
point here that when you go into therapy and you
see a psychologist for the first time, if you think
to yourself, oh my goodness, I'm not clicking with this
(27:21):
person at all, my first bit of advice is give
them a second session, because sometimes you might both be
feeling a bit awkward and uncomfortable, and that might just
be your nervousness and anxiety sort of pinging off each other.
So do the second session. If by the second session
you think now this person is really not for me,
that doesn't mean that therapy is not for you. It
(27:43):
might mean that that particular therapist is not your vibe.
All the modality that they are using is not resonating
with you because it's not.
Speaker 1 (27:52):
One size fits all. No, it's a huge scale of
different things and different solutions. But there is a solution
out there for you just got to find and sometimes
it is a bit of trial and error. But just
understand that you're going in with the subject matter that
you've suppressed your whole life, and now you're bringing you know,
you're letting the You're letting a little squirrel out of
the cage. It's going to be startled very easy. So
(28:13):
you need to I think what's important is are you okay?
I think we need to be asking that yourself. Are
you okay? But allowing yourself to feel not the best,
and being kind to yourself as well and going okay,
this is going to be so, this is going to
be so revealing. Now about to walk in and sit
in this room with this person, They're going to be
(28:36):
cracking me open. I want to go easy on myself. Yeah,
I think that's important.
Speaker 2 (28:41):
I think that what you just said then is really powerful.
Asking yourself, am I okay? And genuinely just sitting back
and listening to what you get back from that, because
I think too often we are so focused on, you know,
everything external to us. I'll just keep going, I'll keep
(29:03):
showing up, you know, whether you're a parent or you know,
I've got to do things for other people. I need
to shop in my job, other people rely on me,
and we do get so focused on that external we
sometimes don't sit with ourselves and be like, gosh, am
I actually doing okay right now? What do I need?
And really tapping into that. And you know, we talk
(29:23):
a lot about I think the word self care gets
thrown out is the kind of like, oh, you think
about someone you know with a face mask on going
to a spa day. But self care for me is
so much deeper than that.
Speaker 1 (29:36):
That's outwardly.
Speaker 2 (29:38):
You need to go inward and it's.
Speaker 1 (29:39):
Inside and yes, if you want to go there.
Speaker 2 (29:42):
It's about how do I care for myself? How do
I show myself that love and compassion, And it's you know,
for me, it's about very focused on nutrition, you know,
it's about exercise. It's connection to community, it's social connectiveness
with friends. There is so much that goes into it.
(30:02):
Where I think about. Those are the things that make
me feel good.
Speaker 1 (30:06):
One hundred percent. And that first thing you mentioned, for example, nutrition,
For my personal experience, I have no choice in the matter.
Not a sexy subject, nutrition, but so crucial you are
what you eat. That's just an old toss up, but
by Jingo, by crikes. You know, when you eat clean,
your life becomes clean. It becomes like this huge world
(30:28):
of options of beauty, of greatness. When you don't eat clean,
it just narrows everything down and you feel like crap. So,
as you mentioned, there's a couple of little things. If
you're listening now and you just can't get it together
and you just can't get any momentum in your life,
and you just struggle to just move and see things
clearly and get off the couch and whatnot, just making
(30:48):
those small changes, getting something to eat. And people say,
I'll go for just some exercise, but if you're feel
in a little bit blur, that's hard. But just eating clean,
you know, go down that rabbit hole. And then the
next time thing you could do is some exercise, but
some really good stuff. And now at the moment, I'm really cool,
I'm really happy that we see in twenty twenty five
the popular of some of these Eastern modalities that aren't
(31:10):
exclusive to the people of the East that are here
in the West, like your yoga's and your chiegungs and pilates.
You know, that's your core. It's a strong part of
your physical well being is hitting your core strong. So
that means that you stand tall. You know, your spine's tall,
and you're stretched out, and your posture is great, and
there's some good things coming forward.
Speaker 2 (31:31):
I think that that let's do it.
Speaker 1 (31:33):
Let's use them.
Speaker 2 (31:33):
Yeah, that's the shift right that we've started to see,
you know in more recent years, where people are really
looking to that self care through physical activity, you know,
through things like beautiful practices with yoga and pilates, and
it can even be as simple as just going for
a walk in the beautiful sunshine. Yes, get out in nature.
Speaker 1 (31:57):
Yeah. We live here in the nation's capital and we
are Bush Capital. So what we lack in beaches, we
have beautiful Bush Capital week. Just going to recharge. That's
important too. And look, you mentioned PTSD and it's really
interesting now as well because that used to only be
spoken about with war veterans in the nineties you know, PTSD,
whereas now it's becoming more mainstream, they talk about narcissism too.
(32:20):
I think it's great that it's been brought out so
then people can actually start to tackle this as well.
And I mean, we all have PTSD since childhood, but
then it all, you know, since we're babies essentially in
those formative views that you mentioned, but then it all
shows up in adulthood in ways, through addictions, through behaviors,
(32:40):
through everything, and that's where the results are when you
can start tackling some of that stuff.
Speaker 2 (32:46):
Yes, and I think it's it's very easy for people,
particularly who haven't been shown the right coping skills or
you know, ability to regulate, for them to fall into those,
I guess more negative coping modes, such as addiction. You know,
they turn towards things like drug and alcohol gambling because
(33:07):
it's just a way of numbing the pain. And I
think that that's also a societal shift around looking at addiction,
because addiction is born out of ill mental health. So
if we can actually look at addiction in that light
rather than saying, oh, gosh, you know, Nick has failed
because he's addicted to alcohol, you really need to treat
(33:28):
the underlying trauma underneath that to really peel back the
layers of why does that person feel like they have
to numb themselves with alcoholath is, yeah, what's happening in
their life where they think to themselves, Okay, I need
to just come home from work and open up a
bottle of wine or I'm not going to cope with
these feelings.
Speaker 1 (33:49):
And I'll share something with you here. So I've been
this is an interesting one. So for me, I've been
really financial conscious this year. So I've been really raining
in my spending because I've got some big financial goals.
If you've got big financial goals, you just can't be
like throwing your money away. So I've really reined it
(34:11):
in and I've purchased. I'm not buying the things that
I would usually buy. But what's coming up is the
underlying emotions I was suppressing without spending, and it might
be just even spending heaps on food, but spending on
material goods. I'm a massive you know, I love my vinyl,
but that's a legitimate addiction. It's music, it's wonderful stuff.
(34:32):
But I would be buying heaps now I'm not buying
so much. I'm not having that kind of dopamine hit
of a transaction, and it's a little bit just more
basic and a bit more kind of clear. And then
I'm noticing, Okay, this pattern has been coming up because
I'm not kind of numbing it and suppressing it with
these other actions. I don't drink, i don't smoke, but
(34:56):
my vice is maybe a bit spending and also junk foo.
And then I've stopped all that, and you notice things,
And that's the thing. It doesn't have to be the
heavy stuff. It can be stuff that's in your house.
It can be just actions every day and people might
not like this. It could be that morning coffee as well,
suppressing a lot of yeah, instability in yourself, you know,
(35:18):
like because coffee is a whole new world when you
have a sip of that stuff.
Speaker 2 (35:21):
Yeah, And I think you know, it turns the lights on,
particularly when you link it back to that nutrition piece.
And you know, I said, I love the research and
the data behind this kind of thing, And there is
a lot of weight behind the fact that if you
drink coffee on an empty stomach, you just spike your
quartersols straight away in the morning, you know, which freaks
you know, havoc on your blood sugar levels and you're
(35:43):
an itly going to have a crash later, Whereas yes,
maybe still if you feel like you'd like to enjoy
that coffee, have a beautiful protein filled breaky first, and
then sip your coffee intentionally after that, knowing that you
know that's not actually going to do any harm to you.
And I think that people forget what you just said.
There's all these little things and little aspects of their
(36:06):
life and habits that they actually have quite a number
of control over where you could hone into that. You
could say to yourself, Okay, well I'm just going to
go and do a twenty minute walk after work or
if you're working from home on your lunch break or
before work, I am going to make sure I just
prioritize eating something with protein in every meal, whatever that
(36:29):
looks like for you. There are some very small shifts
that you can make that don't involve having to go
and seek out therapy or that cost a lot of money,
that can actually move the needle significantly for you.
Speaker 1 (36:43):
Yeah, especially the vinyl needle. And I'm not a train nutritionist,
by the way, and do seek professional help in regards
to these areas. But one thing I've noticed with food,
and when you've been eating a certain way, you've got
this certain nutritional saturation that's working within your body. But
when you're not eating clean it's doing a disservice to
(37:06):
your body. So it makes you feel a certain way
when you change that that chemistry and that conditioning. So
you start, you go from eating you know, not the
best food. I won't mention any names because there could
be responsors, but you're not eating the best food nutritional
and wise, and then you start to go a little
bit cleaner and more high vibe. It's not gonna be
pretty at the start because a transition, and people give
(37:29):
up there because it's uncomfortable. I feel worse. I feel worse.
What are you talking about eating this salad? I feel
worse now. But if you just hang in there and
get through that challenging period at start, there is so
much beautiful energy and feelings at the end of that.
And then when you get there you realize, ah, this
(37:49):
is what it means. And then you just shift the
pendulum where your body starts craving healthy food and then
you don't look at young food the same, and then
you might go out somewhere and you go might take
a piece of jump food, and you ain't enjoying. Your
body starts to reject it, but then you wake up
with clarity, your sleeps better, your life becomes better. And
(38:10):
then you hear people talking about, oh, my life is
so much better now. It's so much better. It's so
much better because I've stopped doing this, And then you
realize to yourself, it's not better. It's how it's meant
to be and what you were foregoing and sacrificing by
eating incorrectly. And you always talk about people that are
the smokers that when they quit smoking, they're always on
(38:32):
that high, which is great, and they go, oh, this
is better, this is better, My whole life is better.
And I was like, is this back to normal now, dude,
because you're not doing that anymore. That's what you were
sacrificing to do that. We are sacrificing so much happiness,
so much clarity and enjoy by getting in the road
of it.
Speaker 2 (38:50):
Yeah, And I think something you just said then was
quite interesting about that sitting in the uncomfortability, and that's
why people don't follow through because so like this is
a little bit too hard and I think if you've
ever been in a situation where you have maybe typically
been quite a lover of coffee and then you've been
(39:11):
in a situation where either you couldn't access it or
you've decided to intentionally pull back, and the headaches and
the withdrawal symptoms can be debilitating. So you can completely understand.
Speaker 1 (39:24):
I mean, if anyone's been for a coffee withdraw a
caffeine withdrawal, it is hell. Usually when you have a headache,
what do you do? You maybe take an aspirin to
have a nap, and then you wake up and you
grow keep it fine. With an alcohol, sorry, with a
caffeine withdrawal, you're a waking up with that same throbbing
headache in the back of you there for a week, yeah,
and all you know, just one sip of coffee it's gone.
Speaker 2 (39:47):
Yeah, So you're just how easy would it be to
and you're back.
Speaker 1 (39:50):
In the back. You're backing that little matrix again, though
you are, and.
Speaker 2 (39:53):
Then the next time is probably going to feel little
bit harder.
Speaker 1 (39:57):
Even still, that coffee was initially in vented to be
more social, so social thing, and there were small cups
and then obviously outs in the West West. Just take
everything out of proportion. I mean, you see in America
how they got like ultra jumbos.
Speaker 2 (40:11):
Now it's almost like half a liter of coffee.
Speaker 1 (40:14):
I worked on a project great lady in Sydney, and
she was an eight coffee a day girl.
Speaker 2 (40:21):
Eight coffee.
Speaker 1 (40:22):
Coffee is a day. She's at that point.
Speaker 2 (40:23):
I can't even imagine.
Speaker 1 (40:25):
But you know that's a whole different podcast, right, But yeah, anyway,
I think being having an awareness nutrition, that's just one confined.
You could do a whole podcast on nutrition. You can
do a whole podcast on exercise. Yeah, maybe this these
are future episodes.
Speaker 2 (40:42):
Yeah, there is so much to this that that can't
really be I guess quantified by just a short conversation
when really there is so much that goes into them
and they all interconnects as pieces of this beautiful puzzle
where they all contribute at the end of the day
(41:03):
to your mental health being in a much more positive space.
And that's really what we're talking about.
Speaker 1 (41:08):
Here, one hundred percent there, Courtney. And how did it
start by asking
Speaker 2 (41:13):
Are you okay
Well, September is the time of new season, the time
of change, and of course it comes September eleven, known
for obvious reasons. But we won't go there, but we'll
go here. Are you Okay Day? Where launches that day
where you do ask your friends, your colleague, your neighbor, anyone,
anyone in your circle? Are you okay? And there's a
(00:21):
woman walking around in camera, flying around in Canberra, I
should say, doing wonderful things around this space. Hello to you, Courtney,
Hello Dank. Are you Okay Day? What does it mean?
Speaker 2 (00:33):
What does it mean? Are you Okay? Day? Is a
meaningful start to a conversation. It is born out of
someone who lost their father tragically to suicide and they
wanted to know what more could they do? How could
they prevent this from happening to other people? And so
(00:55):
this movement began.
Speaker 1 (00:57):
Yeah, so it's been going around for a while now, hasn't.
Speaker 2 (00:58):
It since two thousand and nine?
Speaker 1 (01:00):
So where Yeah? So a good chunk have you noticed?
Have you noticed a change in society? You know, even
on an Australian perspective, a local perspective, having this day?
Speaker 2 (01:14):
Yes, And I think I've also seen what's really interesting
is that day evolve over time? So I can remember
experiencing it in a workplace sense, So you know, the
sort of tokenistic morning teas, the yellow T shirts and
the we love a cupcakes, love the cupcakes. Yeah, and
(01:35):
I can see that over time. Particularly, I would say,
you know, in the last ten years, it has really
evolved into more about resources, it's about education, it's about
I mean, the actual theme for this year is are
you Okay? Any Day? So you know, it's sort of
combats some of that criticism that people might feel around well,
(01:57):
it's just one day. It feels a little bit tokens. Actually,
it's about carrying those conversations forward into every day.
Speaker 1 (02:06):
You hear those stories where people say, we've just finished Christmas,
we're embarking on New Years Eve. Watch in New Year's resolution,
Oh I want to do this, this, this, and this,
And you get that person to say, which is usually me,
I don't need New Year's Eve to do a resolution.
I'll implement them anytime. Is it similar for are you
ok Day? Should we should we be asking a love?
(02:27):
The token is stick ship. We love the token day
because it's better to have none, It's better to have
one than none.
Speaker 2 (02:32):
Absolutely.
Speaker 1 (02:33):
Is it similar? Though? Should we be asking this every day?
Speaker 2 (02:36):
I think that we should be cognizant of it every day,
and we also need to understand what do we do
if someone is not okay? And I think that's the
that's the connective conversation after that, is that if you
genuinely go into a conversation with someone and you're asking
them are you okay? And they respond, actually, no, I'm not,
(02:59):
what do we do then? Yeah? How do we connect
them with support services? How do we be that beautiful,
empathetic and connective ear for them so that they feel
heard and that they feel like they matter and that
maybe they feel like they could stay.
Speaker 1 (03:14):
Totally and on a even just on a kind of
shallower perspective, having just the conversation about something can just
help you just move on to the next day. You
can just process things. It just shakes things up a
little bit and you can feel better. It just kind
of relieves the heaviness. Just having a conversation would be
the starting point to open up a can of worms
(03:36):
to getting better there and to feeling better and to
essentially feel okay.
Speaker 2 (03:41):
Yes, completely, And that's that kind of like connection to community,
you know, is that all of us ultimately want to
know that we're not alone in our pain, and that
we're not the only one that feel these struggles. And
so are You Okay? Day is incredibly connective in that way.
And I recall act my first ever speaking opportunity came
(04:03):
at a workplaces Are You ok Day in twenty eighteen.
So Are You Okaday actually has quite a special place
in my heart because that was the first time I'd
spoken openly about my own mental ill health and the
challenges that I'd faced, no less in a workplace capacity,
which can be incredibly intimidating.
Speaker 1 (04:25):
Why are people so scared about communicating in a world?
I mean that from your experience, what have you seen
so far?
Speaker 2 (04:35):
Yeah, it's a lot to do with the stigma around
mental health, which I feel has evolved so much over time.
We really are seeing mental health in that same vein
as if I said to you, you know, Nick, I
suffer from quite bad anxiety. It's the same as saying Nick,
(04:56):
I have a broken arm. You really want to look
at at the physical and the psychological as one in
the same one to be treated with the same compassion
and empathy and support. But it does stop people that
stigma from actually speaking up, and I know myself I've
experienced that too in the work that I do in
(05:17):
this space as an educator and a speaker, I also
hear that same messaging coming from people who were like,
I didn't know where to turn to. I didn't know
if I'd be taken seriously. I wasn't sure if people
would treat me differently if I was to disclose that
I was struggling with my mental health.
Speaker 1 (05:34):
Yeah, what's the stigma.
Speaker 2 (05:36):
The stigma is that you know there's something wrong with you,
that you're flawed or incapable, particularly in a workplace sense.
I've seen that quite a lot through the work that
I do, that people feel they can't be honest about
their mental health because they might be seen as underperforming.
(05:57):
Or if I'm struggling, it means that I'm not a
worthy person. And all of that is completely untrue, and
that is shifting, which I'm very grateful to see.
Speaker 1 (06:06):
Yeah, it's very big with the boys. And that's whoever
said from the beginning that being a little down on
your ark, or having going for a bad patch, or
having some you know, broken bones, broken limbs, but broken feelings,
whoever said they were bad, you know, and I've always
(06:28):
said it on my perspective. For a guy, you know,
moving forward and actually being open up about that, you
have to choose the lights of being turned off for
a while he is just not working out, you know,
being open about it. For me, there's nothing more strong
and masculine about like wanting to fix that instead of
just like sitting in it and despair. You know, it's like, shit,
(06:50):
I've got to fix this.
Speaker 2 (06:51):
Absolutely. There is a huge amount of strength in reaching
out for support and being vulnerable and open about your experiences.
It's incredibly brave and just to your point, you know,
about experiencing it from that male perspective, it is. It
is masculine, it is you know, we need to we
(07:14):
need to teach our men that it's okay to express
their feelings, in fact, it's needed, and that they don't
have to be these strong, stoic pillars of strength all
the time. Is that they can actually be vulnerable and
lean into those feelings and they are just as much
entitled to support as anybody else is. They don't have
to suffer in silence, and it's not weak to speak.
Speaker 1 (07:36):
Totally and everything you mentioned there is utilizing the masculinity
and utilizing the strength because it's courage. And that's the
thing when you package it that way, and it's like
you put it up against the wall and it's like
unfortunately the old way of thinking, which is evolving as
you mentioned. But yeah, I happy to keep this inside.
You know, they're going to laugh at me and think
(07:57):
that I'm weak and I can't show weakness, and yeah, yeah,
whereas it's the complete opposite.
Speaker 2 (08:06):
It is.
Speaker 1 (08:07):
And there's an old saying is you know, if you
don't know something, you ask a question, don't hold back
because you're only done for that one second. It could
be a situation where you're only hurt for that one second,
because a resolution could be just on the other side
of a conversation. Whether you just feel better for just
getting it off your chest and letting someone else here
(08:27):
and having conversation about it. It helps you just rattle
the cage a little bit move forward, or it can
open up to a rabbit hole of finding a deeper
solution if it's a little bit deeper and darker. Because
we all go through our crap in life. We're all
designed to be plunged here and life's pretty straight without it,
and you be lying to say you haven't been through
any depths of despair and whatnot, whatever you believe in.
(08:50):
So we need to find a solution there, just like
when you have a need to change a tire, just
like when you hurt yourself. You know there's a solution
for everything. And it's great that people like yourself are
going around spreading the messaging and getting in a little
bit more mainstream and more easier to do.
Speaker 2 (09:09):
Absolutely, And I think that that education piece is really
the connector here. So when we are able to normalize
these conversations, we are able to show people that being
vulnerable is powerful, and we're also able to show people
the other side of things that could be waiting for
(09:30):
them when they get the support that they might need.
So in a lot of cases, particularly people who are
experiencing suicidal ideation, they feel like there is no alternative
options and it is a very dark and difficult space
for them, and so for you to be able to
give them that hope and power to say, actually, there
is so much on the other side. There is all
(09:51):
this beautiful support for you. There are people here that
want to see you succeed and care for you. That
can be that message of hope that pulls them through
the other side, and things like are you okay day
spark the conversation. Yes, it might not solve all of
the problems, and I don't think that it intends to
do that, but what you just said, then it sparks something.
(10:11):
It's the conversation, it's the beginning anything to start. If
we can just get started wherever it's going to start
from somewhere, that's right.
Speaker 1 (10:18):
You know, we can't say from zero to one hundred exactly.
You know, we do need to start from somewhere. That's
part of the journey. And you can crawl out of
this stuff. You can crawl out of the funk, you
can crawl out of the dark phases. And it starts
with just a simple conversation and it gets thrown up
all over the place at nauseum and it almost becomes
junk mail, just the conversation. But it is so true.
(10:41):
Just vocalizing you into a world can be the most
all the therapy you need.
Speaker 2 (10:47):
That's right.
Speaker 1 (10:47):
But then once it's out in the open, you realize
and then I don't know, I don't know if anyone,
I don't know if anyone in mankind, in the depth
of human existence, opened up with their vulnerability and laughed
at and said who that's always met with love and support?
(11:08):
Like seriously, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (11:12):
I think that most people will respond in that way.
You know, us as humans and compassionate beings, we want
to support people. And I think when people are experiencing
I would say that that challenging time, that that darkness,
it feels like they're completely alone and nobody else must
(11:34):
be experiencing what I'm experiencing. This is so unique to mesok.
Speaker 1 (11:37):
An isolation around it completely.
Speaker 2 (11:40):
Isolation, and it is and isolation is deadly, you know
in a lot of those cases because when those people
feel like there is no connective community to reach out to,
then they feel lost and there's no anchor, and it's
I don't know what to do, so I'm just going
to sit sort of in my shell and I'm not
going to reach out to people. So in that case,
(12:02):
having someone actually ask you, are you okay?
Speaker 1 (12:06):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (12:06):
It could be just that opening of a door that
lets that person say to you, I'm not doing okay yeah,
you know, and just that is powerful in itself, is
to admit that, you know, I think you think about
sometimes when someone goes, how are you Nick, and you go, yeah,
I'm great, or yeah I'm really good, and you just
off the cuff without even thinking or respond in that way.
(12:29):
I think we all do you know what I do.
Speaker 1 (12:31):
If I'm not feeling it, I've seen better.
Speaker 2 (12:34):
Days, which is you being authentic, and I'll go, really,
are you okay?
Speaker 1 (12:38):
I was like, yeah, I've just got this going on,
and I've just got this stress here and that there,
but you know, I'm working through it. Nothing I can't handle. Yeah,
you know, but that's just me and I've probably you know,
I've learnt the hard way. But that takes time, and
it's just not easy to do that in some people.
And I understand it's not easy for people. That's why
(12:58):
we're here, and it is what you're doing, your wonderful.
Speaker 2 (13:02):
Work hugely because you know, the more that we can
get into those schools and workplaces and change attitudes and
change perspectives and just show people there is a different
way of doing this. You know, it is, with no
word of a lie, life changing for someone. And I've
seen the impact of being an educator in this space
(13:25):
and providing that connective opportunity particularly in schools where you
you know, we learn all kinds of things, you know,
English and maths and science, and it's like, wouldn't it
be great if there was a subject on emotional intelligence
and how to kind of sit with your feelings and
understand them and how to reach out for support, all
of those beautiful things that we probably aren't taught enough.
(13:47):
But I can also see that landscape changing, particularly around
education in Canberra. It's because I'm in those schools helping educate.
Speaker 1 (13:57):
You're part of that shift.
Speaker 2 (13:58):
Absolutely, we are part of the bigger chain.
Speaker 1 (14:00):
How that train it is.
Speaker 2 (14:02):
It is going to be continuing to shift for generations
to come, you know. And if you think about where
that stigma came from, it was those generations before us
that had that sort of have a spoonful of concrete
and get on with life attitude, right like we don't
talk about mental health. Everyone struggles, just get on with life,
stop complaining. And you know what that did. That pushed
(14:23):
down to the generations after them a whole lot of
trauma and feeling like they couldn't be seen and that
they couldn't say how they really felt because it would
be seen as a weakness and I should be able
to just get on with it.
Speaker 1 (14:38):
You mentioned about being seen, and we're leave in a
world now in twenty twenty five where social media, you know,
let's talk about your Instagrams and your tiktoks of the world.
There's a slice of life you look into someone like,
look at this person, and unfortunately, especially going out with
the younger generation, they like to cling onto things and
see that as an example. But if they're in their
(15:00):
own lunch box, they don't fit that example. They think
they're doing life wrong. So there's this weird standard that's
being delivered out there which gets us in our land rooms. Now.
We never had that growing up, but now it's straight
into your land rooms. It's in your back pocket now
for crying out loud. But I'm going to credit yourself.
And it's very commendable that you go out there. I've
(15:22):
seen some of your stuff. You've gone out there and
being really vulnerable, and some people still might view that
as oh, what is she doing? But that's still so
powerful and strong because all the ones that you could,
you know, it's such a big bay world out there,
and anyone that comes across that and sees that says,
you know, what we don't have to look like Kim Kardashian.
(15:43):
Nothing wrong with that, but then you've got vulnerability like yourself.
Showing that vulnerability this is a part of life as well.
You're showing everything, not just that one slide. So yeah,
that's awesome.
Speaker 2 (15:55):
I think that what you've just said there, that it's
a part of life is really powerful because sometimes we forget,
particularly when we're seeing these highlight reels over social media
of people's life and it looks so beautifully created and
they seem like, gosh, they must never have a bad
day in their life, Like how beautiful that they're just
like out in the sunshine, or they're you know, drinking
(16:19):
a mimosa on a beach and they're with their family
and the you know, the dog is running along beside them.
That's so beautiful because a lot of us don't feel
comfortable showing that vulnerability to people because it is a
little bit exposing and it is a little bit being
seen for really who you are. And I'm trying to
shift the narrative around that by showing that vulnerability on
(16:40):
social media to connect with people, to show them that
it's okay, this is life. You know, sometimes we show
up and we're feeling on top of the world and
amazing and like, let's get this. And then other days
we show up and it's like, oh gosh, today feels heavy.
Speaker 1 (16:56):
Well, you mentioned quote unquote highlight real. We should start
doing low light reels.
Speaker 2 (17:03):
Yeah, little low light reel Like where did I had
a really rough day to day? You know, I cried
while I made a piece of peanut butter toast or
whatever it might look like.
Speaker 1 (17:10):
That's why I went the peanut butter because you know, yeah,
I usually go to have a card, but I went
jam today and I tell her today, yeah.
Speaker 2 (17:16):
Because I just needed that little, that comfort treat for myself,
you know. And that's okay. It's okay to show all
aspects of the human experience. And when we subscribe to
this highlight real way of doing life, we're actually doing
ourselves a great disservice.
Speaker 1 (17:33):
Because it's only showing the pleasure. Yes, but it's pleasure.
It's not pleasure or pain. It's pleasure and pain pain.
It's black and white, it's ying and yang. It's never
an awe, it's an end. It is and it's everything.
And I think the more and more we start acknowledging
that are you can to get a little little deeper,
(17:56):
little deep deeper. Yeah, and if you can explore that
there is some beauty on the other side of that,
because they're just parts of yourself that you're ignoring. And
I feel that the stigma could also be constructed in
the world where people are afraid to be judged, but
those ones that they're viewing their source of judgment, that
(18:19):
particular source of judgment, if you will, are probably in
fear of their own pain. So we're just all triggering
each other but keeping it at bay. Yes, which creates chaos.
Speaker 2 (18:33):
It completely does. And we are just showing up with
our wounds and hoping that somebody else accepts us for
those wounds, but sometimes also not quite understanding how we
show up in the world and how that might be
perceived by other people, how we might be putting our
(18:54):
pain on other people as well. And there is a
huge aspect to that healing space there into understanding ourselves
and other people and they're knowing, Okay, this is a
safe place I can be vulnerable, I can reach out
for support. It's okay if I've done things a certain
way for a period of time, I can always turn
(19:14):
things around. It is never too late to change, to
turn things around. We as human beings are beautifully capable
of being adaptable, flexible changing. You know, it's very much
proven that our brain plasticity is. It's not just that
we thought it like tapers off at twenty five. You
absolutely can change your brain. You can change those neural pathways,
(19:34):
you can choose something different for yourself.
Speaker 1 (19:37):
You're not the best. I've got a made of mind.
And he says is he works in like a welfare
space as well, and he's a really successful athlete who's retired.
He says, I love this what he says. He says,
a setback is just an opportunity for a comeback. I
love that a setback is just an opportunity for the comeback.
(20:00):
So every time that you feel that there's a you know,
a setback, we're not feeling the best. This is your
stoppage in play to stop and smell the roses, to
explore and to move into what that is, move into
the funk. Like James Brand always said, you know, you
have to play to the file, feel into it because
(20:20):
you'll be dancing coming out of it.
Speaker 2 (20:22):
Of course. And I feel also style. Yeah, we should
all do a little bit more dancing. I feel like
we can't also appreciate those those beautiful highs and the
lightness without some of those lows and a little bit
of the darkness. You know, you just spoke about the
yin and the yang, and it's that polarity of experience
totally that really makes us appreciate those beautiful things and
(20:45):
maybe seeing those I guess darker times, there's a chance
to regroup, smell the roses, evolve, you know, rather than
being like, oh gosh, why is this happening to me?
Why am I here? Use that as.
Speaker 1 (20:58):
Fuel totally think. I think it's important to try and
find some some stable polarity because sometimes and I think
you just want to kind to go through a flow
of experiencing life with both but not even judging both.
If you say one thing's good, then you're going to
find a bad that I was saying, he's a daily
Lama said, never say you've got a best friend, because
(21:19):
then you're going to create an enemy, you know, So
just living in that middle ground, I feel that's important.
So cashing in the highs but also acknowledging the lows,
enjoying but also understanding I can't do or do some
do some work here, totally, do some digging to the shovel.
Speaker 2 (21:35):
Yeah, And to be quite frank with you, we all
need to get the shovel.
Speaker 1 (21:41):
Shovel.
Speaker 2 (21:42):
We all need to shovel. We have all got parts
of us that, you know, I think we would prefer
to keep hidden. I think there are parts of us
that would really love to see some of that light
and some of that love and care, and that is
all part of you know, that broader sort of healing
journey and being vulnerable and showing up in those ways
(22:03):
and then appreciating where you've come from and where you
were yet to go, because that is very exciting.
Speaker 1 (22:10):
Are you cool? If asked how you got involved in
this kind of work, of course I got you started
on the journey absolutely.
Speaker 2 (22:16):
So what started me with this work was my own
lived experience of mental ill health. And I talked about
doing that speaking event.
Speaker 1 (22:25):
What did that look like, Courtney, for you? If you
don't mammy asking, of.
Speaker 2 (22:28):
Course, So what that looked like for me was I
grew up in an incredibly tumultuous home environment marred by
quite a lot of physical and psychological abuse. So that
really shaped me as a person as I got older
and into those you know, those school years and teenage years,
when I started feeling like something was not quite right.
(22:52):
I felt very different to my peers. I struggled a
lot in social situations. I was quite a recluse. I
would much prefer to read a book by myself, you know,
at lunch times, because I didn't want to interact with people.
I found people a bit frightening. And that is because
I was exposed to this quite horrific environment in my
(23:13):
home life that I actually didn't know how to show
up in the world. I was quite scared, so that level.
I mean, I've experienced, unfortunately, this abuse from when I
was very young upwards until my early early sort.
Speaker 1 (23:31):
Of teen years and important years.
Speaker 2 (23:34):
It's the formative shaping years. When we look back on
how people really end up with developing mental health conditions
when they when they get older, there is a significant
portion of people where it's shaped by childhood trauma. Yes,
there are a number of studies that have been done
(23:54):
over this. One really interesting one is called the ACE study,
which is Adverse Childhood Experiences. And I remember reading a
book on this and the book title just really taught,
you know, really grabbed me. And I thought to myself,
what is an adverse childhood experience? And as I started
(24:15):
reading through the book. At the start of the book,
they gave you, I guess a sort of self quiz
and it said, if you scored more than ten in
this you know quiz, basically, you were going to have
some pretty horrendous life outcomes for yourself later on. And
they'd studied, you know, these children through childhood into adulthood
(24:36):
and the manifestation of not only psychological illness, but also
physical illness, so autoimmune conditions, heart disease, cancer, all kinds
of horrific things were happening to these children who had
been exposed to abuse. And it was things like, you know,
parents that were going through a divorce. That is an
adverse childhood experience. And in some cases it can be
(24:58):
handled quite beautifully, it can be very traumatic. Then there
were the more insiduous things like being exposed to physical harm,
having a parent or caregiver who was utilizing drugs, or
who had been incarcerated. There's quite a number of different
aspects that they tracked. And I remember doing this quiz
and I think I scored a seven, and I thought
(25:21):
to myself, oh my goodness, like it was out of ten.
That was a high score. And I was so bereft
at the time because they made you do the score
to start with, and then they explained in the book like, actually, no,
you can. You can change things for yourself. But at
the time of reading that book, I had been diagnosed
with anxiety, depression, and complex post traumatic stress disorder, as
(25:45):
well as an autoimmune condition. So I was like, oh
my goodness, I am this book like I am everything
that they studied. It's happening to me in real time.
This is not just a you know, a concept. I'm
living this reality right now. And that was incredibly confronting
for me to read.
Speaker 1 (26:02):
So he scored a seven and that would have been
but something tells me that you would have been Okay,
he's my solution. Now where do I go from here?
What's next? I think I need more.
Speaker 2 (26:17):
I'm a very research driven sort of person. I love
to know things. I love to understand things, and that comes,
I think a lot from that childhood trauma peace, where
I really wanted to understand the motivations, you know, of
the person who perpetrated this abuse towards me so that
I might be able to unpack it and work out
(26:37):
why did that happen. So throughout the course of that,
I've done lots of different, you know, research into healing modalities,
and I started off in traditional talk therapy, so psychotherapy.
I still see a psychologist to this day. They are
a beautiful supportive part of that journey for me. And
I have seen different psychologists over the years who have
(26:59):
had different specialties. So it's kind of like when you
go to a psychologist, they might specialize in a particular
modality and it's about finding the one that works best
for you. And I want to make a really big
point here that when you go into therapy and you
see a psychologist for the first time, if you think
to yourself, oh my goodness, I'm not clicking with this
(27:21):
person at all, my first bit of advice is give
them a second session, because sometimes you might both be
feeling a bit awkward and uncomfortable, and that might just
be your nervousness and anxiety sort of pinging off each other.
So do the second session. If by the second session
you think now this person is really not for me,
that doesn't mean that therapy is not for you. It
(27:43):
might mean that that particular therapist is not your vibe.
All the modality that they are using is not resonating
with you because it's not.
Speaker 1 (27:52):
One size fits all. No, it's a huge scale of
different things and different solutions. But there is a solution
out there for you just got to find and sometimes
it is a bit of trial and error. But just
understand that you're going in with the subject matter that
you've suppressed your whole life, and now you're bringing you know,
you're letting the You're letting a little squirrel out of
the cage. It's going to be startled very easy. So
(28:13):
you need to I think what's important is are you okay?
I think we need to be asking that yourself. Are
you okay? But allowing yourself to feel not the best,
and being kind to yourself as well and going okay,
this is going to be so, this is going to
be so revealing. Now about to walk in and sit
in this room with this person, They're going to be
(28:36):
cracking me open. I want to go easy on myself. Yeah,
I think that's important.
Speaker 2 (28:41):
I think that what you just said then is really powerful.
Asking yourself, am I okay? And genuinely just sitting back
and listening to what you get back from that, because
I think too often we are so focused on, you know,
everything external to us. I'll just keep going, I'll keep
(29:03):
showing up, you know, whether you're a parent or you know,
I've got to do things for other people. I need
to shop in my job, other people rely on me,
and we do get so focused on that external we
sometimes don't sit with ourselves and be like, gosh, am
I actually doing okay right now? What do I need?
And really tapping into that. And you know, we talk
(29:23):
a lot about I think the word self care gets
thrown out is the kind of like, oh, you think
about someone you know with a face mask on going
to a spa day. But self care for me is
so much deeper than that.
Speaker 1 (29:36):
That's outwardly.
Speaker 2 (29:38):
You need to go inward and it's.
Speaker 1 (29:39):
Inside and yes, if you want to go there.
Speaker 2 (29:42):
It's about how do I care for myself? How do
I show myself that love and compassion, And it's you know,
for me, it's about very focused on nutrition, you know,
it's about exercise. It's connection to community, it's social connectiveness
with friends. There is so much that goes into it.
(30:02):
Where I think about. Those are the things that make
me feel good.
Speaker 1 (30:06):
One hundred percent. And that first thing you mentioned, for example, nutrition,
For my personal experience, I have no choice in the matter.
Not a sexy subject, nutrition, but so crucial you are
what you eat. That's just an old toss up, but
by Jingo, by crikes. You know, when you eat clean,
your life becomes clean. It becomes like this huge world
(30:28):
of options of beauty, of greatness. When you don't eat clean,
it just narrows everything down and you feel like crap. So,
as you mentioned, there's a couple of little things. If
you're listening now and you just can't get it together
and you just can't get any momentum in your life,
and you just struggle to just move and see things
clearly and get off the couch and whatnot, just making
(30:48):
those small changes, getting something to eat. And people say,
I'll go for just some exercise, but if you're feel
in a little bit blur, that's hard. But just eating clean,
you know, go down that rabbit hole. And then the
next time thing you could do is some exercise, but
some really good stuff. And now at the moment, I'm really cool,
I'm really happy that we see in twenty twenty five
the popular of some of these Eastern modalities that aren't
(31:10):
exclusive to the people of the East that are here
in the West, like your yoga's and your chiegungs and pilates.
You know, that's your core. It's a strong part of
your physical well being is hitting your core strong. So
that means that you stand tall. You know, your spine's tall,
and you're stretched out, and your posture is great, and
there's some good things coming forward.
Speaker 2 (31:31):
I think that that let's do it.
Speaker 1 (31:33):
Let's use them.
Speaker 2 (31:33):
Yeah, that's the shift right that we've started to see,
you know in more recent years, where people are really
looking to that self care through physical activity, you know,
through things like beautiful practices with yoga and pilates, and
it can even be as simple as just going for
a walk in the beautiful sunshine. Yes, get out in nature.
Speaker 1 (31:57):
Yeah. We live here in the nation's capital and we
are Bush Capital. So what we lack in beaches, we
have beautiful Bush Capital week. Just going to recharge. That's
important too. And look, you mentioned PTSD and it's really
interesting now as well because that used to only be
spoken about with war veterans in the nineties you know, PTSD,
whereas now it's becoming more mainstream, they talk about narcissism too.
(32:20):
I think it's great that it's been brought out so
then people can actually start to tackle this as well.
And I mean, we all have PTSD since childhood, but
then it all, you know, since we're babies essentially in
those formative views that you mentioned, but then it all
shows up in adulthood in ways, through addictions, through behaviors,
(32:40):
through everything, and that's where the results are when you
can start tackling some of that stuff.
Speaker 2 (32:46):
Yes, and I think it's it's very easy for people,
particularly who haven't been shown the right coping skills or
you know, ability to regulate, for them to fall into those,
I guess more negative coping modes, such as addiction. You know,
they turn towards things like drug and alcohol gambling because
(33:07):
it's just a way of numbing the pain. And I
think that that's also a societal shift around looking at addiction,
because addiction is born out of ill mental health. So
if we can actually look at addiction in that light
rather than saying, oh, gosh, you know, Nick has failed
because he's addicted to alcohol, you really need to treat
(33:28):
the underlying trauma underneath that to really peel back the
layers of why does that person feel like they have
to numb themselves with alcoholath is, yeah, what's happening in
their life where they think to themselves, Okay, I need
to just come home from work and open up a
bottle of wine or I'm not going to cope with
these feelings.
Speaker 1 (33:49):
And I'll share something with you here. So I've been
this is an interesting one. So for me, I've been
really financial conscious this year. So I've been really raining
in my spending because I've got some big financial goals.
If you've got big financial goals, you just can't be
like throwing your money away. So I've really reined it
(34:11):
in and I've purchased. I'm not buying the things that
I would usually buy. But what's coming up is the
underlying emotions I was suppressing without spending, and it might
be just even spending heaps on food, but spending on
material goods. I'm a massive you know, I love my vinyl,
but that's a legitimate addiction. It's music, it's wonderful stuff.
(34:32):
But I would be buying heaps now I'm not buying
so much. I'm not having that kind of dopamine hit
of a transaction, and it's a little bit just more
basic and a bit more kind of clear. And then
I'm noticing, Okay, this pattern has been coming up because
I'm not kind of numbing it and suppressing it with
these other actions. I don't drink, i don't smoke, but
(34:56):
my vice is maybe a bit spending and also junk foo.
And then I've stopped all that, and you notice things,
And that's the thing. It doesn't have to be the
heavy stuff. It can be stuff that's in your house.
It can be just actions every day and people might
not like this. It could be that morning coffee as well,
suppressing a lot of yeah, instability in yourself, you know,
(35:18):
like because coffee is a whole new world when you
have a sip of that stuff.
Speaker 2 (35:21):
Yeah, And I think you know, it turns the lights on,
particularly when you link it back to that nutrition piece.
And you know, I said, I love the research and
the data behind this kind of thing, And there is
a lot of weight behind the fact that if you
drink coffee on an empty stomach, you just spike your
quartersols straight away in the morning, you know, which freaks
you know, havoc on your blood sugar levels and you're
(35:43):
an itly going to have a crash later, Whereas yes,
maybe still if you feel like you'd like to enjoy
that coffee, have a beautiful protein filled breaky first, and
then sip your coffee intentionally after that, knowing that you
know that's not actually going to do any harm to you.
And I think that people forget what you just said.
There's all these little things and little aspects of their
(36:06):
life and habits that they actually have quite a number
of control over where you could hone into that. You
could say to yourself, Okay, well I'm just going to
go and do a twenty minute walk after work or
if you're working from home on your lunch break or
before work, I am going to make sure I just
prioritize eating something with protein in every meal, whatever that
(36:29):
looks like for you. There are some very small shifts
that you can make that don't involve having to go
and seek out therapy or that cost a lot of money,
that can actually move the needle significantly for you.
Speaker 1 (36:43):
Yeah, especially the vinyl needle. And I'm not a train nutritionist,
by the way, and do seek professional help in regards
to these areas. But one thing I've noticed with food,
and when you've been eating a certain way, you've got
this certain nutritional saturation that's working within your body. But
when you're not eating clean it's doing a disservice to
(37:06):
your body. So it makes you feel a certain way
when you change that that chemistry and that conditioning. So
you start, you go from eating you know, not the
best food. I won't mention any names because there could
be responsors, but you're not eating the best food nutritional
and wise, and then you start to go a little
bit cleaner and more high vibe. It's not gonna be
pretty at the start because a transition, and people give
(37:29):
up there because it's uncomfortable. I feel worse. I feel worse.
What are you talking about eating this salad? I feel
worse now. But if you just hang in there and
get through that challenging period at start, there is so
much beautiful energy and feelings at the end of that.
And then when you get there you realize, ah, this
(37:49):
is what it means. And then you just shift the
pendulum where your body starts craving healthy food and then
you don't look at young food the same, and then
you might go out somewhere and you go might take
a piece of jump food, and you ain't enjoying. Your
body starts to reject it, but then you wake up
with clarity, your sleeps better, your life becomes better. And
(38:10):
then you hear people talking about, oh, my life is
so much better now. It's so much better. It's so
much better because I've stopped doing this, And then you
realize to yourself, it's not better. It's how it's meant
to be and what you were foregoing and sacrificing by
eating incorrectly. And you always talk about people that are
the smokers that when they quit smoking, they're always on
(38:32):
that high, which is great, and they go, oh, this
is better, this is better, My whole life is better.
And I was like, is this back to normal now, dude,
because you're not doing that anymore. That's what you were
sacrificing to do that. We are sacrificing so much happiness,
so much clarity and enjoy by getting in the road
of it.
Speaker 2 (38:50):
Yeah, And I think something you just said then was
quite interesting about that sitting in the uncomfortability, and that's
why people don't follow through because so like this is
a little bit too hard and I think if you've
ever been in a situation where you have maybe typically
been quite a lover of coffee and then you've been
(39:11):
in a situation where either you couldn't access it or
you've decided to intentionally pull back, and the headaches and
the withdrawal symptoms can be debilitating. So you can completely understand.
Speaker 1 (39:24):
I mean, if anyone's been for a coffee withdraw a
caffeine withdrawal, it is hell. Usually when you have a headache,
what do you do? You maybe take an aspirin to
have a nap, and then you wake up and you
grow keep it fine. With an alcohol, sorry, with a
caffeine withdrawal, you're a waking up with that same throbbing
headache in the back of you there for a week, yeah,
and all you know, just one sip of coffee it's gone.
Speaker 2 (39:47):
Yeah, So you're just how easy would it be to
and you're back.
Speaker 1 (39:50):
In the back. You're backing that little matrix again, though
you are, and.
Speaker 2 (39:53):
Then the next time is probably going to feel little
bit harder.
Speaker 1 (39:57):
Even still, that coffee was initially in vented to be
more social, so social thing, and there were small cups
and then obviously outs in the West West. Just take
everything out of proportion. I mean, you see in America
how they got like ultra jumbos.
Speaker 2 (40:11):
Now it's almost like half a liter of coffee.
Speaker 1 (40:14):
I worked on a project great lady in Sydney, and
she was an eight coffee a day girl.
Speaker 2 (40:21):
Eight coffee.
Speaker 1 (40:22):
Coffee is a day. She's at that point.
Speaker 2 (40:23):
I can't even imagine.
Speaker 1 (40:25):
But you know that's a whole different podcast, right, But yeah, anyway,
I think being having an awareness nutrition, that's just one confined.
You could do a whole podcast on nutrition. You can
do a whole podcast on exercise. Yeah, maybe this these
are future episodes.
Speaker 2 (40:42):
Yeah, there is so much to this that that can't
really be I guess quantified by just a short conversation
when really there is so much that goes into them
and they all interconnects as pieces of this beautiful puzzle
where they all contribute at the end of the day
(41:03):
to your mental health being in a much more positive space.
And that's really what we're talking about.
Speaker 1 (41:08):
Here, one hundred percent there, Courtney. And how did it
start by asking
Speaker 2 (41:13):
Are you okay
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