June 5, 2021 • 16 mins
Jamie Graham says that to be successful in business development you have to be memorable and that every company you meet should have you top of mind at all times.
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Guest - Jamie Graham
Host - Carl Grant
Producer - Seth Grant
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Carl Grant (00:00):
Welcome to Rainmakers. I'm here with Jamie
Graham, who does businessdevelopment for kipps disanto.
But not so recently by CapitalOne. Welcome, Jamie. Thanks so
much for having me. So I'veknown Jamie for a while in the
(00:22):
marketplace, in that she wasdoing a role similar to mine for
law firms previously, and thenshe made the transition in 2014,
to investment banking. So Jamietalked to us a little bit about
how you got into businessdevelopment. And is this
something you, like, sought todo as a person in college? Or is
(00:45):
it something you happen to into?
Jamie Graham (00:47):
So I actually completely fell into this role.
I graduated Maryland, and wantedto go to law school, but decided
that I was gonna work at a lawfirm before committing to that,
and the only position that theyhad available was a role in
recruiting and marketing. So Itook that role and quickly
(01:11):
realized that that I was not asit behind the desk type of
person, and that I was a peopleperson, and wanted to be more
out in the marketplace, talkingto folks all day, you know, kind
of assessing what their needswere and how I could be a
resource. So I worked atmultiple law firms in a more
(01:33):
marketing, recruiting businessdevelopment type role. And in
2014, after being at Pillsburyfor six years doing business
development, and their m&apractice, I went over to kips
desanto. And it was kind of anatural transition for me, given
the industries that we focus in.
And it's been an amazing, anamazing ride for the past six
(01:56):
and a half years.
Carl Grant (01:59):
So let's talk a little bit about what you did in
business development. When youwere at Pillsbury, you were
there almost six years, and Iknow what I do, but I assume
what you do maybe a littledifferent than Why do you? So
how do you cultivaterelationships? How do you lower
those clients into the firm?
Jamie Graham (02:18):
So for me, when I went over to Pillsbury, I was
focusing in several differentindustries, technology and
government contractingprimarily. And so I took on
roles in the community thatfocused specifically on building
relationships, for example, Ijoined the Maryland tech Council
(02:38):
and took on a leadership rolethere, I, you know, join the
Northern Virginia Chamber ofCommerce, commerce, and I took
on the co chair role for theGreater Washington government
contractor awards. So I becamevery involved in the industry,
and took on roles that wouldjust connect me to other
(03:00):
advisors and industry, as wellas executives. And ultimately, I
just tried to build as manyrelationships as possible,
trying to determine where youknow, who was a good referral
source for me, and then on theflip side, from a company
perspective, you know, meet asmany executives as possible to
determine where they were in thelifecycle of their business and
(03:21):
how I could be a resource and aresource in any capacity, it
could be, you know, from makingan introduction to another
advisor, it could be to, youknow, making introductions,
potential teaming partners, itcould have been, you know, they
needed legal counsel for, youknow, some intellectual property
(03:42):
issue that they had, so reallyjust trying to assess kind of
where I could be a value add andcultivating those relationships.
And as you know, Carl, are, youknow, the cycle is, is very long
relationships could be, youknow, three to 10 years long
before we actually, you know,are kind of a real value add to
(04:03):
them in some sort oftransaction, because what I was
specifically looking for the m&apractice at that time.
Carl Grant (04:09):
So, once again, very relational, not transactional.
And, and so you establish therelationship and you are
essentially a connector, but isit a, it's a focused connector?
Or is it just kind of a personwho's well connected to the
marketplace who might be able tohelp with something?
Jamie Graham (04:29):
So for me, it's really being able to help in any
capacity, especially at kipsright now, we are a transaction
based practice. So, you know,some of the relationships that I
built at Pillsbury 10 years ago,have, you know, had some sort of
transaction while I've been atcamps, and so it's really just a
(04:53):
lot of touch points. And, youknow, being patient and
assessing folks needs And, youknow, constantly being out in
the market being present andthinking about, you know how you
can make an introduction and howyou can invite someone to a
networking event. So yeah, beinga connector and being a
(05:14):
resource, in any capacity, justalways realizing that every
company that you meet should betop of mind for you at all
times.
Carl Grant (05:22):
So, what's interesting about this podcast
is it's focused on businessdevelopment, which people think
it's like a glorified name forsales, but it's really much
different than sales. I've donesales, I've, I was in a straight
commission, sales job, sellingfurniture, and if I didn't close
(05:42):
somebody, by the time theywalked out the door, I didn't
get paid. And, and I've had asimilar job in telesales when I
was still in high school. Andthis is not that, and I, you
know, this conversation with youis really driving that home, and
that you're out there call tothe idea of cultivating
relationship that might not bearfruit, financially for 10 years,
(06:05):
seems so foreign to mostsalespeople who might be
listening to this?
Jamie Graham (06:08):
Absolutely, it is, but I think there's a lot of
gratification along the way.
And, you know, ultimately, whenthey choose to work with you on
one of the biggest events,that's going to happen in their
lifetime, I mean, there's nobigger reward, right for them
for you, that they that you'vemade an impression along the way
(06:30):
that you've been a value addedresource, and that they are
choosing to work with you andthe company you work for, you
know, for such a big, you know,event, so, yes, you know,
there's been the little instantgratification along the way, but
ultimately, you know, the endresult is, what is the most
(06:50):
exciting and to be a part of,
Carl Grant (06:55):
so how do you know, when you're not just wasting
your time.
Jamie Graham (07:02):
I'm a big believer, and everything kind of
comes full circle. So I think,again, it's, it's not who you
know, it's, you know, how manypeople you know, right, so it's
a numbers game, I think, inbusiness development, and, you
know, in our, in the industriesthat we focused in, it's a very
(07:23):
collegial, very close knitindustry. So if you can be a
value add to someone along theway that ultimately is not going
to transact are ultimately notgoing to bear fruit for you. You
know, it could be a teamingpartner that they're working
with, that they mentioned yourname to, and that you should
(07:45):
meet. Or it could be anotheradvisor in the industry that,
you know, we've builtrelationships with, that
believes, you know, kipps done agreat job. And, you know, so I'm
a big believer that everythingkind of comes full circle,
there's no waste of time,essentially, you know, meeting
(08:07):
folks along the way can help yougrow personally, can help you
grow, you know, your businessnetwork person, personally, it
can help you drive a newrelationship in some capacity.
So, um, you know, I will meetanyone at anytime I always say
that.
Carl Grant (08:27):
I know, I know, all these things are true, I'm just
getting you to say them, cuttingthem off myself every week, but
but it's interesting to hearothers confirm what I know. And
so, you know, at what point is,is it too much, right? Like,
I've got almost 15,000 LinkedInconnections, I'm like, a few
away. And if if I touched everyone of those connections all the
(08:51):
time, it's totally overwhelming,right? And, and so maybe the
people that reach out to you arereaching out to you for random
stuff that really doesn't haveanything to do with what you do.
And you want to be nice toeverybody and answer everybody.
So at what point? does it becometoo much?
Jamie Graham (09:10):
You know, that's a great question. You know, a
first conversation doesn'talways lead to a second
conversation. But a firstconversation can lead to, you
know, a new relationshipsomewhere else. And so I'm
always willing, again, to havean initial conversation. And I
(09:30):
look at things as there's alwaysa takeaway, and there's always
an action item. And you know,that action item could be as
simple as just a follow up, itwas great to meet you. Last
edge, and nothing ever comes tofruition out of that. And that's
kind of where the relationshipends because there's just
nothing that we can ultimatelydo for whatever reason it could
(09:52):
be shareholders goals, or youknow, where the businesses that
at that point in time but Ithink again, there's just always
a takeaway. And I think that'ssuch an important message
because you want to bememorable, whether it's for them
or for you know, a partner thatthey are working with in
(10:13):
industry. And so I think that'sa very important message for
everyone that's looking to getinto industry, or, you know, do
business development as makeyourself as memorable as
possible.
Carl Grant (10:28):
Well, you definitely are memorable to me, because
when you and I would have lunch,you would order the exact same
thing as me unprompted? I mean,you independently did it.
Remember that? Yeah. And, andthen you said, I'm your clone or
something like that. So I'llnever forget that. I don't know
that you have that connectionwith everybody you meet for
(10:49):
lunch, but, but I'll neverforget that for sure. And
hopefully, we'll be meeting forlunch regularly. Again, not the
COVID. Yeah. So have you everthought, Jamie, that, you know,
I know, you've amassed a hugenumber of connections, like I
have it at some point you, youthink to yourself, I could just
(11:10):
sit at home, not leave my house,and my existing contacts, versus
going out and meeting new peopleevery day? And you and I both do
it. But at some point? Does itseem like insanity?
Jamie Graham (11:27):
Ah, yes. And now I think, ultimately, I always want
to meet the net. No, it's alwayswho don't you know, right, who
who don't we know, everyonejokes with you. And I care all
that. We can't send you anyreferrals because you already
know them. Right. But that's notthe case. You know, there are
definitely folks out there. Notjust in our geographic location,
(11:50):
but others that we don't know, Ialways want to know the net new.
But I do reflect a lot on my, mycurrent relationships. And you
know, who haven't I had a touchpoint with. And while that may
have grown, that may need aresource in some capacity. But I
(12:13):
don't, I'm still always outthere looking for the net now
for me.
Carl Grant (12:19):
So I found that picking up and moving to another
geography, that'll get yougoing, right? Exactly. I knew I
knew 1000s of people in the DCmetro area, I came to Austin,
Texas. And literally, I knewless than 200. And so it's been
overwhelming the past, you know,nine months being here.
absolutely overwhelming.
Unfortunately, I've gottenintroduced to some of the best
(12:41):
people in the market, who haveintroduced me to their friends
who have introduced me to theirfriends. It's been it's been
overwhelming, as you canimagine. Amazing. That's
amazing. And exciting. Yeah.
It's exciting, for sure. Andyeah, the net new is definitely
there. I'm meeting these youngerentrepreneurs that have such
amazing ideas and kind ofgetting involved with their
(13:03):
excitement, and you know,working magic and being able to
connect them to investors andpeople that can help them. It's
a lot of fun. It's like startingall over again.
Jamie Graham (13:12):
Oh, absolutely. I mean, I would. And you know,
same thing for me, when I go toa conference, you know, when I'm
seeing all this new technologyaround space or aerospace, you
just get reinvigorated. And itis so much fun to track these
companies and to see wheretechnology is going. And I'm
(13:33):
excited to get back on the roadand start traveling to some of
these other markets that we'vespent a lot of time on prior to
COVID. And, you know, we're justconnecting through virtual
events. Now, I'm really excitedto see, you know, what's
transpired in the past year anda half in some of these markets.
Carl Grant (13:50):
You were on a plane yesterday, it sounds like you've
you've been powered travelagain. And you know, you hit
other markets, as well as the DCmetro market. Tell me what
that's been like.
Jamie Graham (14:02):
Um, so I've only traveled twice. And it's both
been in the past two weeks. AndI don't foresee any travel, you
know, for another month or sonow. It's interesting, I think,
you know, in our role andbusiness development, going from
being out in the market everysingle day to not traveling at
(14:22):
all, and trying to reassess howyou're going to be a resource to
folks during when COVID firsthit, was really, it was
challenging, right? Because Iwas I had five weeks of the
like, following six weeksscheduled or travel and for
major events where I would be ina conference, you know, touching
(14:45):
50 companies and two days, andthat all came to a screeching
halt. So I think you know, thattransition was was interesting
and we had to look and assesshow, you know, I could be a
value add. And so ultimately itwas everybody wants to know what
their peers were doing and how,you know, other folks were
(15:09):
managing in the market with thetelework. And so now, for the
past year and a half, it's been,you know, all through virtual
zooms, and phone calls, andnothing in person. So being back
on the road has been veryinteresting. I was down in
Tampa, and, you know, at apretty large event down there,
(15:31):
and it was everyone's first kindof Reel out. And so I think
everyone's really trying tofigure out is the hybrid version
going to work now, can you dosome networking in person, but
the content portion of otherevents, you know, online, so
it's gonna be reallyinteresting, I think, I'm
(15:51):
excited to be back on the road,even if it's one on one
meetings, and not some of thelarger events. I think that in
our role, you know, putting aface with a name is really
important. And it leaves alonger lasting impression. So,
yes, back to some travel, it'sstill very minimal. It's still
(16:12):
gonna be a hybrid for a while, Ithink, at least going into, you
know, q3 and q4 of this year,and then hopefully, in 2022,
we'll start to see events getback to what they were, you
know, pre COVID.
Carl Grant (16:28):
I hope so. Well, it's been a pleasure having you
on the podcast. Jamie Graham,thank you for joining us.
Jamie Graham (16:33):
Thank you so much for having me
Carl Grant (16:35):
You bet, if you liked what you heard tod,ay
please subscribe. Please ratethe podcast and share it with
your friends.Tha nky ou.t
Welcome to Rainmakers. I'm here with Jamie
Graham, who does businessdevelopment for kipps disanto.
But not so recently by CapitalOne. Welcome, Jamie. Thanks so
much for having me. So I'veknown Jamie for a while in the
(00:22):
marketplace, in that she wasdoing a role similar to mine for
law firms previously, and thenshe made the transition in 2014,
to investment banking. So Jamietalked to us a little bit about
how you got into businessdevelopment. And is this
something you, like, sought todo as a person in college? Or is
(00:45):
it something you happen to into?
Jamie Graham (00:47):
So I actually completely fell into this role.
I graduated Maryland, and wantedto go to law school, but decided
that I was gonna work at a lawfirm before committing to that,
and the only position that theyhad available was a role in
recruiting and marketing. So Itook that role and quickly
(01:11):
realized that that I was not asit behind the desk type of
person, and that I was a peopleperson, and wanted to be more
out in the marketplace, talkingto folks all day, you know, kind
of assessing what their needswere and how I could be a
resource. So I worked atmultiple law firms in a more
(01:33):
marketing, recruiting businessdevelopment type role. And in
2014, after being at Pillsburyfor six years doing business
development, and their m&apractice, I went over to kips
desanto. And it was kind of anatural transition for me, given
the industries that we focus in.
And it's been an amazing, anamazing ride for the past six
(01:56):
and a half years.
Carl Grant (01:59):
So let's talk a little bit about what you did in
business development. When youwere at Pillsbury, you were
there almost six years, and Iknow what I do, but I assume
what you do maybe a littledifferent than Why do you? So
how do you cultivaterelationships? How do you lower
those clients into the firm?
Jamie Graham (02:18):
So for me, when I went over to Pillsbury, I was
focusing in several differentindustries, technology and
government contractingprimarily. And so I took on
roles in the community thatfocused specifically on building
relationships, for example, Ijoined the Maryland tech Council
(02:38):
and took on a leadership rolethere, I, you know, join the
Northern Virginia Chamber ofCommerce, commerce, and I took
on the co chair role for theGreater Washington government
contractor awards. So I becamevery involved in the industry,
and took on roles that wouldjust connect me to other
(03:00):
advisors and industry, as wellas executives. And ultimately, I
just tried to build as manyrelationships as possible,
trying to determine where youknow, who was a good referral
source for me, and then on theflip side, from a company
perspective, you know, meet asmany executives as possible to
determine where they were in thelifecycle of their business and
(03:21):
how I could be a resource and aresource in any capacity, it
could be, you know, from makingan introduction to another
advisor, it could be to, youknow, making introductions,
potential teaming partners, itcould have been, you know, they
needed legal counsel for, youknow, some intellectual property
(03:42):
issue that they had, so reallyjust trying to assess kind of
where I could be a value add andcultivating those relationships.
And as you know, Carl, are, youknow, the cycle is, is very long
relationships could be, youknow, three to 10 years long
before we actually, you know,are kind of a real value add to
(04:03):
them in some sort oftransaction, because what I was
specifically looking for the m&apractice at that time.
Carl Grant (04:09):
So, once again, very relational, not transactional.
And, and so you establish therelationship and you are
essentially a connector, but isit a, it's a focused connector?
Or is it just kind of a personwho's well connected to the
marketplace who might be able tohelp with something?
Jamie Graham (04:29):
So for me, it's really being able to help in any
capacity, especially at kipsright now, we are a transaction
based practice. So, you know,some of the relationships that I
built at Pillsbury 10 years ago,have, you know, had some sort of
transaction while I've been atcamps, and so it's really just a
(04:53):
lot of touch points. And, youknow, being patient and
assessing folks needs And, youknow, constantly being out in
the market being present andthinking about, you know how you
can make an introduction and howyou can invite someone to a
networking event. So yeah, beinga connector and being a
(05:14):
resource, in any capacity, justalways realizing that every
company that you meet should betop of mind for you at all
times.
Carl Grant (05:22):
So, what's interesting about this podcast
is it's focused on businessdevelopment, which people think
it's like a glorified name forsales, but it's really much
different than sales. I've donesales, I've, I was in a straight
commission, sales job, sellingfurniture, and if I didn't close
(05:42):
somebody, by the time theywalked out the door, I didn't
get paid. And, and I've had asimilar job in telesales when I
was still in high school. Andthis is not that, and I, you
know, this conversation with youis really driving that home, and
that you're out there call tothe idea of cultivating
relationship that might not bearfruit, financially for 10 years,
(06:05):
seems so foreign to mostsalespeople who might be
listening to this?
Jamie Graham (06:08):
Absolutely, it is, but I think there's a lot of
gratification along the way.
And, you know, ultimately, whenthey choose to work with you on
one of the biggest events,that's going to happen in their
lifetime, I mean, there's nobigger reward, right for them
for you, that they that you'vemade an impression along the way
(06:30):
that you've been a value addedresource, and that they are
choosing to work with you andthe company you work for, you
know, for such a big, you know,event, so, yes, you know,
there's been the little instantgratification along the way, but
ultimately, you know, the endresult is, what is the most
(06:50):
exciting and to be a part of,
Carl Grant (06:55):
so how do you know, when you're not just wasting
your time.
Jamie Graham (07:02):
I'm a big believer, and everything kind of
comes full circle. So I think,again, it's, it's not who you
know, it's, you know, how manypeople you know, right, so it's
a numbers game, I think, inbusiness development, and, you
know, in our, in the industriesthat we focused in, it's a very
(07:23):
collegial, very close knitindustry. So if you can be a
value add to someone along theway that ultimately is not going
to transact are ultimately notgoing to bear fruit for you. You
know, it could be a teamingpartner that they're working
with, that they mentioned yourname to, and that you should
(07:45):
meet. Or it could be anotheradvisor in the industry that,
you know, we've builtrelationships with, that
believes, you know, kipps done agreat job. And, you know, so I'm
a big believer that everythingkind of comes full circle,
there's no waste of time,essentially, you know, meeting
(08:07):
folks along the way can help yougrow personally, can help you
grow, you know, your businessnetwork person, personally, it
can help you drive a newrelationship in some capacity.
So, um, you know, I will meetanyone at anytime I always say
that.
Carl Grant (08:27):
I know, I know, all these things are true, I'm just
getting you to say them, cuttingthem off myself every week, but
but it's interesting to hearothers confirm what I know. And
so, you know, at what point is,is it too much, right? Like,
I've got almost 15,000 LinkedInconnections, I'm like, a few
away. And if if I touched everyone of those connections all the
(08:51):
time, it's totally overwhelming,right? And, and so maybe the
people that reach out to you arereaching out to you for random
stuff that really doesn't haveanything to do with what you do.
And you want to be nice toeverybody and answer everybody.
So at what point? does it becometoo much?
Jamie Graham (09:10):
You know, that's a great question. You know, a
first conversation doesn'talways lead to a second
conversation. But a firstconversation can lead to, you
know, a new relationshipsomewhere else. And so I'm
always willing, again, to havean initial conversation. And I
(09:30):
look at things as there's alwaysa takeaway, and there's always
an action item. And you know,that action item could be as
simple as just a follow up, itwas great to meet you. Last
edge, and nothing ever comes tofruition out of that. And that's
kind of where the relationshipends because there's just
nothing that we can ultimatelydo for whatever reason it could
(09:52):
be shareholders goals, or youknow, where the businesses that
at that point in time but Ithink again, there's just always
a takeaway. And I think that'ssuch an important message
because you want to bememorable, whether it's for them
or for you know, a partner thatthey are working with in
(10:13):
industry. And so I think that'sa very important message for
everyone that's looking to getinto industry, or, you know, do
business development as makeyourself as memorable as
possible.
Carl Grant (10:28):
Well, you definitely are memorable to me, because
when you and I would have lunch,you would order the exact same
thing as me unprompted? I mean,you independently did it.
Remember that? Yeah. And, andthen you said, I'm your clone or
something like that. So I'llnever forget that. I don't know
that you have that connectionwith everybody you meet for
(10:49):
lunch, but, but I'll neverforget that for sure. And
hopefully, we'll be meeting forlunch regularly. Again, not the
COVID. Yeah. So have you everthought, Jamie, that, you know,
I know, you've amassed a hugenumber of connections, like I
have it at some point you, youthink to yourself, I could just
(11:10):
sit at home, not leave my house,and my existing contacts, versus
going out and meeting new peopleevery day? And you and I both do
it. But at some point? Does itseem like insanity?
Jamie Graham (11:27):
Ah, yes. And now I think, ultimately, I always want
to meet the net. No, it's alwayswho don't you know, right, who
who don't we know, everyonejokes with you. And I care all
that. We can't send you anyreferrals because you already
know them. Right. But that's notthe case. You know, there are
definitely folks out there. Notjust in our geographic location,
(11:50):
but others that we don't know, Ialways want to know the net new.
But I do reflect a lot on my, mycurrent relationships. And you
know, who haven't I had a touchpoint with. And while that may
have grown, that may need aresource in some capacity. But I
(12:13):
don't, I'm still always outthere looking for the net now
for me.
Carl Grant (12:19):
So I found that picking up and moving to another
geography, that'll get yougoing, right? Exactly. I knew I
knew 1000s of people in the DCmetro area, I came to Austin,
Texas. And literally, I knewless than 200. And so it's been
overwhelming the past, you know,nine months being here.
absolutely overwhelming.
Unfortunately, I've gottenintroduced to some of the best
(12:41):
people in the market, who haveintroduced me to their friends
who have introduced me to theirfriends. It's been it's been
overwhelming, as you canimagine. Amazing. That's
amazing. And exciting. Yeah.
It's exciting, for sure. Andyeah, the net new is definitely
there. I'm meeting these youngerentrepreneurs that have such
amazing ideas and kind ofgetting involved with their
(13:03):
excitement, and you know,working magic and being able to
connect them to investors andpeople that can help them. It's
a lot of fun. It's like startingall over again.
Jamie Graham (13:12):
Oh, absolutely. I mean, I would. And you know,
same thing for me, when I go toa conference, you know, when I'm
seeing all this new technologyaround space or aerospace, you
just get reinvigorated. And itis so much fun to track these
companies and to see wheretechnology is going. And I'm
(13:33):
excited to get back on the roadand start traveling to some of
these other markets that we'vespent a lot of time on prior to
COVID. And, you know, we're justconnecting through virtual
events. Now, I'm really excitedto see, you know, what's
transpired in the past year anda half in some of these markets.
Carl Grant (13:50):
You were on a plane yesterday, it sounds like you've
you've been powered travelagain. And you know, you hit
other markets, as well as the DCmetro market. Tell me what
that's been like.
Jamie Graham (14:02):
Um, so I've only traveled twice. And it's both
been in the past two weeks. AndI don't foresee any travel, you
know, for another month or sonow. It's interesting, I think,
you know, in our role andbusiness development, going from
being out in the market everysingle day to not traveling at
(14:22):
all, and trying to reassess howyou're going to be a resource to
folks during when COVID firsthit, was really, it was
challenging, right? Because Iwas I had five weeks of the
like, following six weeksscheduled or travel and for
major events where I would be ina conference, you know, touching
(14:45):
50 companies and two days, andthat all came to a screeching
halt. So I think you know, thattransition was was interesting
and we had to look and assesshow, you know, I could be a
value add. And so ultimately itwas everybody wants to know what
their peers were doing and how,you know, other folks were
(15:09):
managing in the market with thetelework. And so now, for the
past year and a half, it's been,you know, all through virtual
zooms, and phone calls, andnothing in person. So being back
on the road has been veryinteresting. I was down in
Tampa, and, you know, at apretty large event down there,
(15:31):
and it was everyone's first kindof Reel out. And so I think
everyone's really trying tofigure out is the hybrid version
going to work now, can you dosome networking in person, but
the content portion of otherevents, you know, online, so
it's gonna be reallyinteresting, I think, I'm
(15:51):
excited to be back on the road,even if it's one on one
meetings, and not some of thelarger events. I think that in
our role, you know, putting aface with a name is really
important. And it leaves alonger lasting impression. So,
yes, back to some travel, it'sstill very minimal. It's still
(16:12):
gonna be a hybrid for a while, Ithink, at least going into, you
know, q3 and q4 of this year,and then hopefully, in 2022,
we'll start to see events getback to what they were, you
know, pre COVID.
Carl Grant (16:28):
I hope so. Well, it's been a pleasure having you
on the podcast. Jamie Graham,thank you for joining us.
Jamie Graham (16:33):
Thank you so much for having me
Carl Grant (16:35):
You bet, if you liked what you heard tod,ay
please subscribe. Please ratethe podcast and share it with
your friends.Tha nky ou.t
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