June 3, 2020 • 39 mins
Former CEO of Caribou Coffee AND the cofounder of The Great American Cookie Company chats with us about the ups and downs of business and how to truly get a raise.
Michael is nothing short of impressive and grew an $8,000 investment into the largest cookie franchise in the United States. He's a philanthropist, the namesake of the Coles College of Business at Kennesaw State University, and gives us some amazing insight into his time as former chairman of the Georgia Film Commission.
This is one you don't want to miss.
So good, in fact, here's a little sneak peek ...
“I had ever seen a Rolex in real life, and he was wearing one. And so, as the plane was landing, I said, what advice can you give a young guy like me that's about to set off into the business world? And he said….”
Listen now for more ... :)
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Michael (00:00):
And I was sitting next to a guy, who in today's world
would probably be on a privateplane.
I probably never would have metthis guy.
But I knew he was a verysuccessful guy because it was
the first time, I had ever seena Rolex in real life, and he was
wearing one.
And so, as the plane waslanding, I said, what advice can
you give a young guy like methat's about to set off into the
(00:22):
business world?
And he said, take risks, takethem as young as you possibly
can be because the older youget, the more complicated your
life's going to get, and takingrisks becomes more and more
difficult.
Amanda (00:44):
Welcome to the raise up podcast.
I'm your host Amanda LeFever,and I'm so glad you are here.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you for tuning in each andevery week.
I really appreciate all the loveand support, and I hope you are
getting as much from theseamazing interviews as I am.
We have an extra special guestthis week and I know you are
going to love him.
My new friend Michael Coles.
(01:05):
Michael is an Atlanta businessexecutive, serial entrepreneur
and philanthropist who foundedThe Great American Cookie
Company.
I love this story and can't waitto dive in more, he did it with
an$8,000 investment and he grewit into the largest cookie
franchise in the U.S.
He's the former CEO of CaribouCoffee where he doubled the size
(01:28):
of the company and took itpublic on NASDAQ.
He also helps a lot of people.
He's the namesake of the ColesCollege of Business at Kennesaw
State University and was theformer chair of the Georgia Film
Commission.
Plus, he contributes his time,talent, and treasure to a lot of
other non-profit organizations.
Michael, thank you.
(01:49):
Thank you so much for being onthe show.
Michael (01:52):
Amanda, it's great to be with you.
I've been really looking forwardto having this conversation with
you and so, let's do it.
Amanda (01:59):
I'm ready.
Let's do it.
I'm really excited and I'm sorryfor the long introduction, but I
just couldn't leave anythingout.
I read about some world recordsin three transcontinental bike
races as well.
Will you tell us a little bitabout that?
Michael (02:15):
Well, I like a lot of people, I had not ridden a bike
since I had been a kid, but sixweeks after we started The
Cookie Company, I was involvedin a near fatal motorcycle
accident and I was basicallytold by doctors I'd never walk
again unaided.
And so, I wound up using thebike, as part of my rehab.
(02:38):
It was kind of a self-stylerehabilitation program and like
a lot of things in my life as Istarted getting more flexibility
in my legs, I started ridinglonger and longer distances.
As I said, like most things inmy life, I got a little carried
away.
And so, I originally road fromSavannah, Georgia to San Diego,
(02:59):
California.
The idea was to use that ride orrace, to set an example for
people that you just can't giveup.
You can't quit.
I felt very lucky that I had hadthe tenacity, to go ahead and do
what d octors said would not bepossible.
(03:20):
And so, I wanted to set anexample.
And then in'82 when I set thisrecord, I knew it wasn't my best
effort.
And so, I set out in'83, toattempt to break my record and,
I wound up crashing less than500 miles from San Diego.
I w ould h ave broken my recordby over a week.
(03:41):
I had just great weatherconditions.
And so, in 1984 I set out onemore time to break my record.
This time I had the worstweather possible across the
country.
If you ride a bike, you knowthat you can deal with rain, we
d eal with cold, you can dealwith just about anything except
headwinds.
(04:02):
And I had 30 mile an hourheadwinds from Savannah all the
way up to 70 mile an hourheadwinds in California.
I did manage to get across thecountry in'84 and broke my
record by over four days.
Across the country,11 days,eight hours, 15 minutes.
And then in 1989 I joined afour-man team to do the race
(04:26):
across America, which went fromLA to New York.
We won the race across America.
We went 3000 miles in five days,one hour, eight minutes.
It's the fastest crossing ofAmerica ever by a four-man team.
And it's the fastest 3000 milesever covered under human power.
(04:47):
And I'm proud to be with allyour folks today t o s ay t hat
both records still s tand.
Amanda (04:52):
That's amazing and such an inspiring story too, that you
were able to do what you did andjust continue to push forward.
Michael (05:02):
Well, and at the same time, we're still building The
Cookie Company.
The other thing I'll justmention if anybody's interested,
there is a documentary that wasdone on my'84 crossing, which is
available on YouTube.
All they have to do is type inMichael Cole's bicycle, and
it'll show up.
(05:23):
It was a documentary that wasdone, it was on NBC.
Amanda (05:25):
That's awesome.
I'll put that in the show notesfor sure, for everybody that, so
they can go check that out.
I'm going to go check that out.
Actually, my dad is a bikerider.
He's always rode bikes my wholelife and so I just think it's
super impressive.
Michael (05:40):
Well, one of the things that happened, I don't know if
this'll be in the show or not,but one of the things that
happened when I was still on awalker and trying to get
movement back into my legs, Iwatched a television show called
the Rocky Bleier story.
Rocky Bleier is a former runningback for the Pittsburgh Steelers
(06:02):
and was injured in Vietnam tothe point where they told him
he'd never walk again, let alonerun with the football.
And he wound up playing on Ibelieve, four Super Bowl
championship teams.
And he, when the documentary wasdone, they asked me who I'd like
to narrate it.
And of course, that's the firstname that came up was Rocky
(06:24):
Bleier and it turned out he didnarrate it and he and I, wound
up becoming really good friends.
Amanda (06:30):
That's so cool.
Oh my gosh.
Okay.
Wow.
I'll put that in there too.
The Rocky Bleiers.
You said that's a story as well.
Is it a video?
A documentary?
Michael (06:41):
It was a made for TV movie and he's a really nice
guy.
But anyway, yeah.
So, he narrates the entiredocumentary.
Good guy.
Amanda (06:55):
That's awesome.
So, I can't believe that youwere doing all of this while you
were actually building acompany, and I saw, where you
tell this story about being on aplane sitting next to a
successful businessman and hegave you some advice about
taking career risks he had said,don't be afraid to take risks
and don't be afraid to fail,failure and success run hand in
(07:19):
hand.
Can you tell me more about that?
Do you feel like that still issomething that's relevant today?
Michael (07:26):
Well, what happened was I was 22.
I won a big sales contest forthe company I was working with.
My company flew me back firstclass.
I had never f lown first classbefore, and I was sitting next
to a guy who in today's worldwould probably be on a private
plane.
I probably never wo uld h a ve met this guy.
But I knew he was a verysuccessful guy because it w a s
(07:47):
f irst time, I h a d e ver seena Rolex in real life, and he was
wearing one.
And so, as the plane waslanding, I said, what advice can
yo u g ive a young guy like methat's about to set off into the
business world?
And he said, take risks, takethem as young as you possibly
can be.
Because the older you get, themore complicated your life's
(08:08):
going to get.
And taking risks becomes moreand more difficult.
So, I have given that advice toliterally thousands and
thousands of people I mentor bythe way right now, several
millennials.
And I have to tell you, I thinkmillennials get a really bad rap
because the millennials that Iget, that I've been involved
(08:30):
with, I'm not sure who'slearning more from home.
I love listening, and talking tothem about what they're working
on because generally theirthinking is very different than
the way I started out because wedidn't have the internet.
We didn't have that internetthing.
(08:52):
And, with younger people todayhave really literally grown up
with the internet when they'rethinking about business or
whatever.
Whatever they're doing in theirlife, they don't think about it
as boxed in.
As you know, older people likemyself, when we start out, like
when I started The CookieCompany, it was pretty typical.
(09:13):
We found a location, four walls.
You built out a store, you didit in a mall and you hope that
people would come.
If I were doing the companytoday would be completely
different when you definitelywant a store.
But the way a millennial wouldthink about it or the way most
people today who are in businessbetter start thinking about it
because you got to think moreglobally, how do you reach all
(09:35):
the people that might enjoywhatever it is you're doing?
That might buy whatever it isyou're trying to do in a very
different way.
So, I think the one thing I'veseen with millennials is that
they've taken all the barriersoff when they're thinking about
how they're going to go abouttheir business.
And so, I think that advice isstill pertinent because a
(09:56):
millennial, if they'refortunate, we'll get older and
their lives are going to getmore complicated.
And so, again, there's nothingwrong with taking risks, just
remembering that failure doesrun hand in hand with success.
But you know, there's a greatamateur golfer, whose name is
(10:17):
Bobby Jones, who is an Atlantagolfer who had a great saying,
he's the greatest amateur golferthat has ever lived.
And he said, I never learnedanything from a golf tournament
I ever won.
And I think that that's the onething that's important for
people to always remember, thatwhen you're successful at
something, generally, you don'ttake a lot of knowledge from it,
(10:40):
because it went along the wayyou expected.
I think that when things don'tgo the way you want, that's when
you really can learn something.
And one of the things I've oftensaid is that the difference
between success and failure isdealing with the unexpected.
And that's, how people wind upreally succeeding is high,
(11:02):
because being an entrepreneur isnot about getting knocked down,
it's about staying down and it'sabout continuing to get up and
learn and move on.
Th at w a s a long answer.
Amanda (11:14):
No, that was fantastic.
And there are so many, I have somany questions swirling.
So, how do you deal with theunexpected?
I know that you've taken a lotof risks in your life, and it
seems like it's been rewarding.
What is something that you wouldsay to someone right now that
is, dealing with an awful bossor terrible leadership at their
(11:36):
company or you know, they'retrying to move up, and they're
pushing, pushing forward andstriving for more, but they keep
hitting like these barriers?
Michael (11:46):
Well, first of all, I think that you got to find the
right fit, and you've got tofeel appreciated with whatever
you do.
And look, I started out in aworld where I had a right,
really my first mentor and realboss, a guy named Irving Sattler
was probably the toughest guy Iever worked for.
And, but at the same time I knewmy work was being appreciated.
(12:12):
I will say that he was not themost generous guy in the world.
And I would also say that when Ineeded more money, he was not
forthcoming necessarily withsaying, hey, here's more money.
You're doing a great job.
But, but one thing he did do,which I felt very respected in
(12:36):
what I was doing even as a kidstarting out at 13.
Even, when I worked for himuntil I was 19.
But I always felt respected.
I always felt appreciated.
And I think if anybody is in aposition at a job, and I know
the jobs, sometimes you justhave to stay in a job because
you just need the money orwhatever it might be.
But the easiest time to find ajob is when you have a job.
(12:59):
People should always rememberthat, because when people are
being interviewed, they liked tointerview people who in fact
have a job.
But if you're not feelingappreciated and it's not about
money necessarily, and youprobably need to go someplace
where you feel you will beappreciated.
You know, Irving had a greatexpression.
I once asked him why he hadbecome an entrepreneur and he
(13:22):
said that he had always beenable to find a job and people
always wanted to pay him what hewas worth.
And he said, I wouldn't work forthat little.
And so he said, I had to kind ofgo on my own path.
And in many ways for me, it wassimilar in some ways because I
didn't have a college education.
(13:44):
I never went to college.
And so, when I was starting out,that could be a roadblock into
getting into a place that youwanted to go.
And so, I became a risk takerpretty early on.
And in Irving's words, because Iwanted to make sure that I felt
I was being paid what I wasworth.
And I think that's what peoplehave to believe.
(14:06):
I mean, if you're in a positionwhere you're not feeling
appreciated, and not getting thekind of compensation that you
think you're deserving.
If you go to someone and theydon't agree, then I think it's
time to move on to somethingelse.
A nd again, i t goes back tothat whole risk thing.
Y eah.
It's a risk to take anotherposition.
But on the other hand you can'tstay where you're u nhappy, you
(14:29):
just can't do it.
Amanda (14:30):
Yeah.
Like that should be the firstred flag almost, that it's time
to move to somewhere else.
Michael (14:36):
I always used to tell people that would work with me,
that if you have to come and askme for a raise, you probably
need to go someplace else.
Amanda (14:47):
I've never heard that before because we've been
talking a lot lately aboutcommunication.
And so, have you ever beensurprised by someone asking you
for raise?
Michael (14:58):
Oh sure.
Yeah.
And I'd say that probably wasmore true when I was dealing
with a smaller business.
You know, as businesses gotbigger, sometimes you don't have
that personal touch where yourealize, my gosh, I should
really be doing something morefor this person.
(15:19):
But I have had a number ofsituations where someone did
come to me and felt like theyneeded more compensation.
And I basically sat down andsaid, you know, if you have to
come to me and ask me for araise, you probably ought to sit
down with me and find out whatit is that you're doing that has
not caused me to want to giveyou that raise.
And so, it can become a greatgood teaching moment as well
(15:44):
with people that work with you.
The other thing I would say isthis, is that if you're in a
position of leadership, itdoesn't have to be, you don't
have to be the CEO.
But if you're in fact having towork with people who have to
report to you, the one thingpeople should always remember is
that the words of the personthat's leading you, whatever
(16:06):
comes out of your mouth is notnecessarily being heard the way
you intend.
I've had meetings where Ithought the meeting went great,
and then the person left myoffice, and went home for the
day because they were so upsetand I thought it was a great.
Amanda (16:22):
Oh no.
Michael (16:23):
And so, sometimes it's just communication is a big part
of working with folks.
And I think sometimes you get itright, and sometimes you just
don't.
I mean it's a bunch of greatstories in my book, that I kept
was published about a year and ahalf ago.
(16:44):
The book is full of stories ofthings that went wrong more than
things that went right.
Because, as I've said earlier, Imean, I think the things that
don't go the way you expect arethe great teaching moments that
you have in both your businessand in your life, your personal
life.
My book is a lot about business,but it's more about living life,
(17:05):
on both sides, whatever you dofor your career or whatever you
do in your personal life.
And so, it's definitely,learning to both, express how
you feel with people, but alsolistening to people, you know.
(17:25):
And, anyway I went off there.
Amanda (17:28):
No, no, you're fantastic.
So, I have your book.
It's time to get tough, MichaelCole's book, and I've started
reading it and I absolutely loveit.
You're a great storyteller, andyou've had a very interesting
life.
And you say that you'rementoring some people right now.
What are some of the challengesthat they're facing, and some of
(17:49):
the advice that you've beengiving you feel like?
Michael (17:53):
Well, I've mentored a number of people over the years
to the point where some of them,it's been 20 years.
Generally, it's how to get morefunding, which is probably the
most common thing or trying tonetwork, trying to teach them
(18:14):
about networking.
The biggest thing for me hasbeen talking to people that I
started out mentoring and thenmake talking to them about
becoming mentors.
Because now that they've kind offound their way, they need to
give something back, and to helpother young people, younger
(18:34):
people.
And that, by the way, that's notnecessarily young people.
I'm talking about people thatmay be just young to whatever it
is they're doing.
I literally right now ammentoring four people from 22 to
54, and the 54 year old issomeone who at 50, decided to
(18:57):
make the complete change intheir life.
Now that's a person that alsoneeds help in kind of giving
them direction.
And, the one thing I get, thinkprobably more than anything, I
try to do with people that I'mtrying to help is to just get
them to focus on what's reallyimportant.
And, especially in the worldtoday where you do have the
(19:20):
internet and this ability tothink about things on a more
global basis, you still have toget back to what is the value
proposition of what you'redoing, and not get so caught up
in all these peripheral thingsthat you might possibly be able
to do.
And, but focus on the main thingthat you're trying to
(19:42):
accomplish.
I know the cookie business seemsreally simple.
I was in the coffee, CaribouCoffee.
I've been in the bankingbusiness, running the film
commission.
In the book I talk about thestory about how we took Georgia
from, at one point where it wasone of the top five places in
(20:05):
the United States to producefull length films as well as
commercials and music videos andall that.
When I got there, Georgia wasprobably 10 or 12 in the country
and we were doing about 180million in economic impact,
(20:25):
which may sound like a lot, butit's not when you're talking
about economic impact.
And when I sat down with theexecutive director, I was the
lay leader, I wasn't gettingpaid, but this is like the paid
person that was running the filmcommission.
And he sat down with me andstarted talking to me about, how
(20:45):
we could do more business.
And he started saying, you knowhow other States had studios,
editing facilities, taxincentives.
He went down this whole list ofall the things that we didn't
have in Georgia.
And so, he said, I'm trying tofigure how we can bring this
business back.
(21:05):
And I said to him, you're askingthe wrong question.
I said, you're asking how to domore business if we don't have
all these things, why doesanybody come here and do a
business with us at all?
I said, because until we figureout why people come, we can't
figure out how to bring more.
And so, we started a process ofputting together this incredible
(21:28):
board of people who all touchedthe industry.
To make a long story short, inthe four years that I ran the
film commission with thisincredible board, we took it
from 180 million to over abillion in four years.
And today Georgia is 12 and ahalf billion.
(21:50):
Wow.
And the number and the numberone producer of full-length
motion picture films in theworld.
Amanda (21:57):
That's amazing.
I had no idea.
Michael (22:00):
Yeah.
So again, it was focusing on thecore of what drove people to the
state and then building off ofthat.
And you can't go from, wellmaybe some can, but I've never
figured out how to go from theoutside in.
You got to kind of go from thatinside out to build that.
Amanda (22:22):
So people that are working in corporate America, is
that kind of a good strategy forthem as well?
Like focus on what is workinghere and expand out there?
Michael (22:34):
I think it is.
I mean I think a lot of peoplewho, people can be easily
distracted, and that does notmean that you don't look at how
to do things differently or trysomething different than new.
But at some point, if things arenot working the way you want,
(22:56):
you kind of just say, okay,that's not going to work but, at
the same time you're trying todo it.
I think you've also got tocontinue to build on the
strength of whatever it is yourworking.
Let that be the core that holdsyou up.
I mean, if I were in the cookiebusiness, or coffee, we business
(23:16):
never came out with a differentcup of coffee or a different
cookie or a different brownie orwhatever it might have done.
We probably would have been afive-year wonder.
That would have been the end ofbusiness.
So, you experiment withsomething.
We had plenty of stuff thatfailed.
Plenty of stuff that didn'twork, and you learn from them,
and try to figure out why theydidn't work and then maybe
(23:37):
create a new product or aprocess that will allow you to
go into a different area.
One of the things that I thinkthat people can lose track of,
especially, let's say you aresuccessful at a new product or a
new process.
It's not like you're living insome vacuum where your
(23:59):
competitor is not looking to seewhat you're doing.
And if they find that you'redoing something that's really
different, I guess what we wouldsay, something disruptive.
Something in an industry or aproduct, whatever it might be,
that's disruptive.
Remember your competitor, that'sgoing to be their starting
(24:20):
point, right?
Whatever you've done, that's sogreat.
It's like, I got asked thequestion recently at a
University, they said, whatindustries do you think are
still prime to be disrupted?
And I said anything that wasdisruptive five years ago
probably could also be nowdisruptive.
(24:43):
Just look at how they're doingthat, figure out a way to do it
better.
Amanda (24:46):
Yeah.
Because you can just improve onwhat they've already done.
They've gone through all theirfailures and the learning since.
So, you can move to that place.
You had said earlier that, therewere two things the funding and
then the networking that youtalk to people about the most.
We haven't really touched onnetworking very often in the
(25:07):
show, but I feel like it isextremely important in people's
lives.
What do you think as far asnetworking?
How is it that you build a goodnetwork?
Michael (25:20):
Well, I think that this is probably one of my favorite
subjects of all.
Because I think that people makea big mistake in networking, a
lot of people make a bigmistake.
They approach it with what canyou do for me?
And in networking it's got to bea two-way street.
(25:42):
You've got to find, strategicrelationships where you can
benefit each other, and if not,it won't go forward.
At some point, that the personthat you're trying to network
with is going to just feel like,this is really kind of a waste
of my time.
(26:02):
But it's no different than whenyou're selling something that
somebody wants or somebodyneeds, they're going to buy that
from you because obviouslythere's a benefit to them.
Networking is selling.
I mean, that's what it reallyis.
And so, if you're sellingyourself or selling your
(26:23):
business or whatever therelationship is, and what you're
trying to get is to an expansionof that, to find someone that
can help you move into differentareas.
While at the same time, you needto be asking the questions, how
can I help you?
I mean, are there places thatyou're looking to move into,
(26:45):
that maybe I could be of someservice to you.
But I see people going to thesenetworking things and basically,
it's me, me, me, and it's justnot going to work.
You might get a phone number andyou might even get a coffee.
But to get it beyond that, it'sabout, it's about relationships.
I mean networking is nodifferent than any other kind of
(27:08):
a relationship.
It's got to work both ways.
Amanda (27:11):
So what about in this day and age where we've moved so
much to technology and it's lessabout the in person relationship
building?
What do you think?
What do you think that's good oryou think it's bad that we're
less connected?
Michael (27:29):
Well, with what has been going on right now, we're
probably the least connectedwe've ever been, with COVID-19.
Look, I still believe there'sthe human factor of interacting
and actually getting togetherwith people.
(27:50):
I would hope that we never getaway from that.
I mean, even people I talk tonow that are doing a lot of
their business to resume or,whatever type of video
communication we're now usingjust like we are right now.
(28:13):
But there is still something,there's still something
different than that human touch.
I can say this, I do a lot ofpublic speaking and I've done
many podcasts and I've done bigwebinars.
You know, where you've got 3, 4,5, 10,000 people listening.
It's not the same as standing infront of an audience.
Amanda (28:33):
That's true.
Michael (28:34):
It's just not the same of getting that emotional
feedback that you could feel theexpressions on people's faces,
in looking at them, and allthose other interactions.
I think, I hope we never moveaway from that, and I don't
think we are.
I mean this, if you see beforeall this happened, people were
(28:58):
still going to meetings, peoplewere still going to coffees.
I mean, Caribou Coffee would notsurvive.
A Starbucks would not survive ifit wasn't for those personal
kind of meetings that arehappening.
But there's no doubt that you'vegot to have a different set of
skills today.
And learning how to communicatethrough this type of
(29:21):
communication is probably easierfor people who've grown up with
it, than it is for people thathave not.
But on the other hand, here'sthe way I would relate to this.
I am sure that when thetelephone was invented, people
said that is the end of humancommunication.
(29:43):
That's it.
That's it, we're done.
People are never going to wantto go see each other anymore,
they don't have any reason to.
I think this is just thebeginning of a new way of
communicating, and it's just anadd on and it's not.
It's just like talking on a cellphone.
I mean that, that's probablymore that people can relate to.
(30:04):
I mean the fact is that ithasn't been around that long.
And I'm sure when that firsthappened, people started
thinking, well that's the end ofhuman interaction.
And I know that when I sit in acar with, today would be my
grandchildren, and they'resitting in the back seat.
They're not even talking to eachother, they're texting each
other in the backseat.
(30:25):
And I know why they're doing itbecause they don't want me to
know what they're talking about.
But, the thing of it is, is thateveryone's afraid that that's
the end of socialization withyoung, that younger, it's not,
it's just different.
Amanda (30:42):
Yeah, I agree with you.
So, it seems like the strategythough is to continue to
communicate, kind of navigatethis period of time that we're
in, but to always keep in mindlike what is the, what can I do
for them?
How can I help them type ofsituation?
(31:03):
Instead of always thinking aboutwhat's in it for me type of
thing.
Michael (31:08):
Yeah, absolutely.
I mean, I hate the expressionwin-win, but it really is a
win-win.
I mean, people have to feel thatthey're really getting
something.
My son, as an example, has acompany that helps companies
manage strategic relationships.
And when he first told me whathe was doing, he's very
(31:30):
successful at it.
I thought to myself, why does acompany need that?
I mean, it's like, why do theyhave to hire?
I can understand that maybehaving somebody internally, why
do they need an external person?
And the point he made was thatif you're on the inside of a
company, it's hard for you tosee how you're not giving more
(31:52):
than the other side is getting,that you're getting from them.
And that that's why they needsomeone to help manage it.
It's like why do married peoplego to counselors, for me, to
meet some person to help themmanage through a personal issue.
Business relationships are nodifferent.
(32:14):
So, somebody has to feel thatthey're both important to the
relationship.
And I think that's wherenetworking, again, that's where
people I think fail, where theydon't get the understanding of
what they each bring and whytogether they're better.
Amanda (32:31):
I like that.
So, we typically ask people toshare their best story about,
like their war story, getting araise or asking for a raise.
It doesn't have to be youspecifically, but do you have
any awkward, funny, interestingstories about when somebody was
trying to get a raise?
Michael (32:52):
Oh yeah.
Actually I have a great story,the best story.
Amanda (32:55):
Excellent, wow, you're so good.
Michael (32:57):
Yeah.
And the story, actually, it's inthe book.
So, after I won that salescontest that I talked about
earlier, and after I flew homewith that great guy who gave me
the great advice.
My territory where I was asalesman on the road, and my
territory was Western Michigan,and which i ncluded from, so
(33:20):
let's say you know Michigan.
It was everything but the thumbof Michigan.
So, Detroit was a part of thethumb, and this is back in the
heyday of Michigan by the way,in the heyday of Detroit.
And so, I had won this salescontest.
I was doing more business inWestern Michigan th an t he guy
who had all of the th umb o fMichigan.
(33:42):
And he had just opened a bigaccount, they cr ack t his big
account and such a big accountthat, in fact, it was going to
be his only territory.
It was just this one account.
And so, the thumb, or Detroitopened up, and I called my boss
up after th is s ales contest.
And I said, I was 22, and Isaid, I want to take that
(34:08):
territory.
I want that territory inDetroit.
And I said, but I want the wholestate.
And I said, what I'll do is I'llhire someone to work for me in
Western Michigan, take over myterritory and I'll move to
Detroit and I'll take overDetroit, and I'll supervise to
make sure we continue to buildwh at I built in Western
Michigan.
(34:29):
And my boss was a guy named BobLo ris.
Ha ve y o u j ust startedlaughing?
Literally, just st art laughing, and he said to me, he s
aid, kid, he said, you're notready for Detroit.
He said, they'd laugh at you,because I was 22 and I probably
looked 12, he said, you'll walkinto one of these big department
(34:51):
stores and they won't even seeyou.
He said, slow do wn, sl ow down, you're not ready yet.
And I said, I really want theterritory, I want it laid out
exactly as I said.
And if you don't give me theterritory, I'm telling you now,
in January, because this wasSeptember, I said in January I'm
(35:16):
leaving, I'm going to go take adifferent job.
And he said, you're not goi ngto le ave, you just started
making money.
You know you're doing reallywell, you're not.
I said, Bob, I'm telling younow, if you don't give me the
territory, I'm leaving.
He said okay.
Any way, m ake a long storyshort.
I never got the interview withhim.
He hired somebody else, and inDecember I called them up on the
(35:42):
phone because they had sent methe samples for the new line
that we were goi ng to startselling in January.
And I called them up and askedthem what to do with them.
I said, why did they send thisto me?
And he said, well what do youmean?
And I said, well, I'm leaving inJanuary.
And he said, what do you meanyou're leaving?
I said, I told you, if youdidn't give me the territory I
(36:05):
was goi ng to le ave.
And he said, don't go anywhere.
So, he go t on a plane and fl ew in.
The bottom line was that hedidn't give me what I wanted.
I took the advice from the guyon the plane, and basically just
decided, this is why I had totake the ris k.
I quit.
I quit the te rritory.
I m o v ed to Detroit withanother company, and to say that
(36:33):
it was a successful move, wouldbe an understatement.
And plu s, b ecause, at 23, Icracked every major department
store retailer in Michigan, andwound up having three people
working for me in the state.
Every time one of my retailersran a full page ad of what we
(36:56):
were selling, I sent a c o py ofit to my old boss.
Amanda (36:59):
No, you did not?
Michael (37:02):
I did.
We stayed the greatest friendsuntil he passed away just a few
years ago.
And he wound up becomingpresident of the company I was
working for.
And in an interview, they asked,and this is years after I was no
longer working for him.
(37:22):
I was probably now in the cookiebusiness.
They said to him, Bob, you'vehad a great road to success, you
started in the carnivalbusiness, and you wound up in
the clothing business, and youwound up becoming president of
the company you went to work asa salesman.
He said, have you made anymistakes along the way?
And he said, yeah, I didn'tpromote Michael Cole to Detroit.
Amanda (37:43):
No way, that's amazing.
Michael (37:46):
Yeah, So that's the story about trying to get a
raise.
Amanda (37:54):
That is incredible, and I don't think that we could end
on a better story at all.
I can't believe that worked outlike that.
That's amazing.
So, I know that you have thisbook, and all of these amazing
stories, and where can peoplefind the book?
How can they get their hands onthis?
Michael (38:12):
Okay, so it is available both on a hard card
copy and Kindle on Amazon.
And it's at a number of localbookstores as well, love to
promote local bookstores.
And, then my website, whichyou're on right now under
construction, also is availablefor folks, got the video, and it
(38:33):
will have the documentary on it.
Hopefully, it's going to be upin another week, but we just
took it down and completelyrebuilding it.
So, Amazon is a great way, andlike I said, the documentary is
available on YouTube.
Amanda (38:46):
Okay, I'll make sure that I link all of that stuff in
the show notes, and Michael,thank you so much for coming on
the show.
Michael (38:54):
Man, this has been real fun.
Amanda (38:54):
It's been so fun.
It's been a real pleasure, andyou are super inspiring, and
it's incredible your journey,and that raise story is by far
one of the best.
Don't tell anybody else, butthat is definitely the best that
I've heard so far.
Michael (39:08):
Alright, well stay in touch.
Amanda (39:11):
Okay.
Take care.
Hey, thanks so much forlistening today.
If you enjoyed the podcast, youcan subscribe, you can share it
with your friends, and you canclick the share button, take a
screenshot, and share it on yoursocial stories, and then tag me,
at Amanda LeFever.
Thanks again for listening.
I will talk to you guys soon.
And I was sitting next to a guy, who in today's world
would probably be on a privateplane.
I probably never would have metthis guy.
But I knew he was a verysuccessful guy because it was
the first time, I had ever seena Rolex in real life, and he was
wearing one.
And so, as the plane waslanding, I said, what advice can
you give a young guy like methat's about to set off into the
(00:22):
business world?
And he said, take risks, takethem as young as you possibly
can be because the older youget, the more complicated your
life's going to get, and takingrisks becomes more and more
difficult.
Amanda (00:44):
Welcome to the raise up podcast.
I'm your host Amanda LeFever,and I'm so glad you are here.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you for tuning in each andevery week.
I really appreciate all the loveand support, and I hope you are
getting as much from theseamazing interviews as I am.
We have an extra special guestthis week and I know you are
going to love him.
My new friend Michael Coles.
(01:05):
Michael is an Atlanta businessexecutive, serial entrepreneur
and philanthropist who foundedThe Great American Cookie
Company.
I love this story and can't waitto dive in more, he did it with
an$8,000 investment and he grewit into the largest cookie
franchise in the U.S.
He's the former CEO of CaribouCoffee where he doubled the size
(01:28):
of the company and took itpublic on NASDAQ.
He also helps a lot of people.
He's the namesake of the ColesCollege of Business at Kennesaw
State University and was theformer chair of the Georgia Film
Commission.
Plus, he contributes his time,talent, and treasure to a lot of
other non-profit organizations.
Michael, thank you.
(01:49):
Thank you so much for being onthe show.
Michael (01:52):
Amanda, it's great to be with you.
I've been really looking forwardto having this conversation with
you and so, let's do it.
Amanda (01:59):
I'm ready.
Let's do it.
I'm really excited and I'm sorryfor the long introduction, but I
just couldn't leave anythingout.
I read about some world recordsin three transcontinental bike
races as well.
Will you tell us a little bitabout that?
Michael (02:15):
Well, I like a lot of people, I had not ridden a bike
since I had been a kid, but sixweeks after we started The
Cookie Company, I was involvedin a near fatal motorcycle
accident and I was basicallytold by doctors I'd never walk
again unaided.
And so, I wound up using thebike, as part of my rehab.
(02:38):
It was kind of a self-stylerehabilitation program and like
a lot of things in my life as Istarted getting more flexibility
in my legs, I started ridinglonger and longer distances.
As I said, like most things inmy life, I got a little carried
away.
And so, I originally road fromSavannah, Georgia to San Diego,
(02:59):
California.
The idea was to use that ride orrace, to set an example for
people that you just can't giveup.
You can't quit.
I felt very lucky that I had hadthe tenacity, to go ahead and do
what d octors said would not bepossible.
(03:20):
And so, I wanted to set anexample.
And then in'82 when I set thisrecord, I knew it wasn't my best
effort.
And so, I set out in'83, toattempt to break my record and,
I wound up crashing less than500 miles from San Diego.
I w ould h ave broken my recordby over a week.
(03:41):
I had just great weatherconditions.
And so, in 1984 I set out onemore time to break my record.
This time I had the worstweather possible across the
country.
If you ride a bike, you knowthat you can deal with rain, we
d eal with cold, you can dealwith just about anything except
headwinds.
(04:02):
And I had 30 mile an hourheadwinds from Savannah all the
way up to 70 mile an hourheadwinds in California.
I did manage to get across thecountry in'84 and broke my
record by over four days.
Across the country,11 days,eight hours, 15 minutes.
And then in 1989 I joined afour-man team to do the race
(04:26):
across America, which went fromLA to New York.
We won the race across America.
We went 3000 miles in five days,one hour, eight minutes.
It's the fastest crossing ofAmerica ever by a four-man team.
And it's the fastest 3000 milesever covered under human power.
(04:47):
And I'm proud to be with allyour folks today t o s ay t hat
both records still s tand.
Amanda (04:52):
That's amazing and such an inspiring story too, that you
were able to do what you did andjust continue to push forward.
Michael (05:02):
Well, and at the same time, we're still building The
Cookie Company.
The other thing I'll justmention if anybody's interested,
there is a documentary that wasdone on my'84 crossing, which is
available on YouTube.
All they have to do is type inMichael Cole's bicycle, and
it'll show up.
(05:23):
It was a documentary that wasdone, it was on NBC.
Amanda (05:25):
That's awesome.
I'll put that in the show notesfor sure, for everybody that, so
they can go check that out.
I'm going to go check that out.
Actually, my dad is a bikerider.
He's always rode bikes my wholelife and so I just think it's
super impressive.
Michael (05:40):
Well, one of the things that happened, I don't know if
this'll be in the show or not,but one of the things that
happened when I was still on awalker and trying to get
movement back into my legs, Iwatched a television show called
the Rocky Bleier story.
Rocky Bleier is a former runningback for the Pittsburgh Steelers
(06:02):
and was injured in Vietnam tothe point where they told him
he'd never walk again, let alonerun with the football.
And he wound up playing on Ibelieve, four Super Bowl
championship teams.
And he, when the documentary wasdone, they asked me who I'd like
to narrate it.
And of course, that's the firstname that came up was Rocky
(06:24):
Bleier and it turned out he didnarrate it and he and I, wound
up becoming really good friends.
Amanda (06:30):
That's so cool.
Oh my gosh.
Okay.
Wow.
I'll put that in there too.
The Rocky Bleiers.
You said that's a story as well.
Is it a video?
A documentary?
Michael (06:41):
It was a made for TV movie and he's a really nice
guy.
But anyway, yeah.
So, he narrates the entiredocumentary.
Good guy.
Amanda (06:55):
That's awesome.
So, I can't believe that youwere doing all of this while you
were actually building acompany, and I saw, where you
tell this story about being on aplane sitting next to a
successful businessman and hegave you some advice about
taking career risks he had said,don't be afraid to take risks
and don't be afraid to fail,failure and success run hand in
(07:19):
hand.
Can you tell me more about that?
Do you feel like that still issomething that's relevant today?
Michael (07:26):
Well, what happened was I was 22.
I won a big sales contest forthe company I was working with.
My company flew me back firstclass.
I had never f lown first classbefore, and I was sitting next
to a guy who in today's worldwould probably be on a private
plane.
I probably never wo uld h a ve met this guy.
But I knew he was a verysuccessful guy because it w a s
(07:47):
f irst time, I h a d e ver seena Rolex in real life, and he was
wearing one.
And so, as the plane waslanding, I said, what advice can
yo u g ive a young guy like methat's about to set off into the
business world?
And he said, take risks, takethem as young as you possibly
can be.
Because the older you get, themore complicated your life's
(08:08):
going to get.
And taking risks becomes moreand more difficult.
So, I have given that advice toliterally thousands and
thousands of people I mentor bythe way right now, several
millennials.
And I have to tell you, I thinkmillennials get a really bad rap
because the millennials that Iget, that I've been involved
(08:30):
with, I'm not sure who'slearning more from home.
I love listening, and talking tothem about what they're working
on because generally theirthinking is very different than
the way I started out because wedidn't have the internet.
We didn't have that internetthing.
(08:52):
And, with younger people todayhave really literally grown up
with the internet when they'rethinking about business or
whatever.
Whatever they're doing in theirlife, they don't think about it
as boxed in.
As you know, older people likemyself, when we start out, like
when I started The CookieCompany, it was pretty typical.
(09:13):
We found a location, four walls.
You built out a store, you didit in a mall and you hope that
people would come.
If I were doing the companytoday would be completely
different when you definitelywant a store.
But the way a millennial wouldthink about it or the way most
people today who are in businessbetter start thinking about it
because you got to think moreglobally, how do you reach all
(09:35):
the people that might enjoywhatever it is you're doing?
That might buy whatever it isyou're trying to do in a very
different way.
So, I think the one thing I'veseen with millennials is that
they've taken all the barriersoff when they're thinking about
how they're going to go abouttheir business.
And so, I think that advice isstill pertinent because a
(09:56):
millennial, if they'refortunate, we'll get older and
their lives are going to getmore complicated.
And so, again, there's nothingwrong with taking risks, just
remembering that failure doesrun hand in hand with success.
But you know, there's a greatamateur golfer, whose name is
(10:17):
Bobby Jones, who is an Atlantagolfer who had a great saying,
he's the greatest amateur golferthat has ever lived.
And he said, I never learnedanything from a golf tournament
I ever won.
And I think that that's the onething that's important for
people to always remember, thatwhen you're successful at
something, generally, you don'ttake a lot of knowledge from it,
(10:40):
because it went along the wayyou expected.
I think that when things don'tgo the way you want, that's when
you really can learn something.
And one of the things I've oftensaid is that the difference
between success and failure isdealing with the unexpected.
And that's, how people wind upreally succeeding is high,
(11:02):
because being an entrepreneur isnot about getting knocked down,
it's about staying down and it'sabout continuing to get up and
learn and move on.
Th at w a s a long answer.
Amanda (11:14):
No, that was fantastic.
And there are so many, I have somany questions swirling.
So, how do you deal with theunexpected?
I know that you've taken a lotof risks in your life, and it
seems like it's been rewarding.
What is something that you wouldsay to someone right now that
is, dealing with an awful bossor terrible leadership at their
(11:36):
company or you know, they'retrying to move up, and they're
pushing, pushing forward andstriving for more, but they keep
hitting like these barriers?
Michael (11:46):
Well, first of all, I think that you got to find the
right fit, and you've got tofeel appreciated with whatever
you do.
And look, I started out in aworld where I had a right,
really my first mentor and realboss, a guy named Irving Sattler
was probably the toughest guy Iever worked for.
And, but at the same time I knewmy work was being appreciated.
(12:12):
I will say that he was not themost generous guy in the world.
And I would also say that when Ineeded more money, he was not
forthcoming necessarily withsaying, hey, here's more money.
You're doing a great job.
But, but one thing he did do,which I felt very respected in
(12:36):
what I was doing even as a kidstarting out at 13.
Even, when I worked for himuntil I was 19.
But I always felt respected.
I always felt appreciated.
And I think if anybody is in aposition at a job, and I know
the jobs, sometimes you justhave to stay in a job because
you just need the money orwhatever it might be.
But the easiest time to find ajob is when you have a job.
(12:59):
People should always rememberthat, because when people are
being interviewed, they liked tointerview people who in fact
have a job.
But if you're not feelingappreciated and it's not about
money necessarily, and youprobably need to go someplace
where you feel you will beappreciated.
You know, Irving had a greatexpression.
I once asked him why he hadbecome an entrepreneur and he
(13:22):
said that he had always beenable to find a job and people
always wanted to pay him what hewas worth.
And he said, I wouldn't work forthat little.
And so he said, I had to kind ofgo on my own path.
And in many ways for me, it wassimilar in some ways because I
didn't have a college education.
(13:44):
I never went to college.
And so, when I was starting out,that could be a roadblock into
getting into a place that youwanted to go.
And so, I became a risk takerpretty early on.
And in Irving's words, because Iwanted to make sure that I felt
I was being paid what I wasworth.
And I think that's what peoplehave to believe.
(14:06):
I mean, if you're in a positionwhere you're not feeling
appreciated, and not getting thekind of compensation that you
think you're deserving.
If you go to someone and theydon't agree, then I think it's
time to move on to somethingelse.
A nd again, i t goes back tothat whole risk thing.
Y eah.
It's a risk to take anotherposition.
But on the other hand you can'tstay where you're u nhappy, you
(14:29):
just can't do it.
Amanda (14:30):
Yeah.
Like that should be the firstred flag almost, that it's time
to move to somewhere else.
Michael (14:36):
I always used to tell people that would work with me,
that if you have to come and askme for a raise, you probably
need to go someplace else.
Amanda (14:47):
I've never heard that before because we've been
talking a lot lately aboutcommunication.
And so, have you ever beensurprised by someone asking you
for raise?
Michael (14:58):
Oh sure.
Yeah.
And I'd say that probably wasmore true when I was dealing
with a smaller business.
You know, as businesses gotbigger, sometimes you don't have
that personal touch where yourealize, my gosh, I should
really be doing something morefor this person.
(15:19):
But I have had a number ofsituations where someone did
come to me and felt like theyneeded more compensation.
And I basically sat down andsaid, you know, if you have to
come to me and ask me for araise, you probably ought to sit
down with me and find out whatit is that you're doing that has
not caused me to want to giveyou that raise.
And so, it can become a greatgood teaching moment as well
(15:44):
with people that work with you.
The other thing I would say isthis, is that if you're in a
position of leadership, itdoesn't have to be, you don't
have to be the CEO.
But if you're in fact having towork with people who have to
report to you, the one thingpeople should always remember is
that the words of the personthat's leading you, whatever
(16:06):
comes out of your mouth is notnecessarily being heard the way
you intend.
I've had meetings where Ithought the meeting went great,
and then the person left myoffice, and went home for the
day because they were so upsetand I thought it was a great.
Amanda (16:22):
Oh no.
Michael (16:23):
And so, sometimes it's just communication is a big part
of working with folks.
And I think sometimes you get itright, and sometimes you just
don't.
I mean it's a bunch of greatstories in my book, that I kept
was published about a year and ahalf ago.
(16:44):
The book is full of stories ofthings that went wrong more than
things that went right.
Because, as I've said earlier, Imean, I think the things that
don't go the way you expect arethe great teaching moments that
you have in both your businessand in your life, your personal
life.
My book is a lot about business,but it's more about living life,
(17:05):
on both sides, whatever you dofor your career or whatever you
do in your personal life.
And so, it's definitely,learning to both, express how
you feel with people, but alsolistening to people, you know.
(17:25):
And, anyway I went off there.
Amanda (17:28):
No, no, you're fantastic.
So, I have your book.
It's time to get tough, MichaelCole's book, and I've started
reading it and I absolutely loveit.
You're a great storyteller, andyou've had a very interesting
life.
And you say that you'rementoring some people right now.
What are some of the challengesthat they're facing, and some of
(17:49):
the advice that you've beengiving you feel like?
Michael (17:53):
Well, I've mentored a number of people over the years
to the point where some of them,it's been 20 years.
Generally, it's how to get morefunding, which is probably the
most common thing or trying tonetwork, trying to teach them
(18:14):
about networking.
The biggest thing for me hasbeen talking to people that I
started out mentoring and thenmake talking to them about
becoming mentors.
Because now that they've kind offound their way, they need to
give something back, and to helpother young people, younger
(18:34):
people.
And that, by the way, that's notnecessarily young people.
I'm talking about people thatmay be just young to whatever it
is they're doing.
I literally right now ammentoring four people from 22 to
54, and the 54 year old issomeone who at 50, decided to
(18:57):
make the complete change intheir life.
Now that's a person that alsoneeds help in kind of giving
them direction.
And, the one thing I get, thinkprobably more than anything, I
try to do with people that I'mtrying to help is to just get
them to focus on what's reallyimportant.
And, especially in the worldtoday where you do have the
(19:20):
internet and this ability tothink about things on a more
global basis, you still have toget back to what is the value
proposition of what you'redoing, and not get so caught up
in all these peripheral thingsthat you might possibly be able
to do.
And, but focus on the main thingthat you're trying to
(19:42):
accomplish.
I know the cookie business seemsreally simple.
I was in the coffee, CaribouCoffee.
I've been in the bankingbusiness, running the film
commission.
In the book I talk about thestory about how we took Georgia
from, at one point where it wasone of the top five places in
(20:05):
the United States to producefull length films as well as
commercials and music videos andall that.
When I got there, Georgia wasprobably 10 or 12 in the country
and we were doing about 180million in economic impact,
(20:25):
which may sound like a lot, butit's not when you're talking
about economic impact.
And when I sat down with theexecutive director, I was the
lay leader, I wasn't gettingpaid, but this is like the paid
person that was running the filmcommission.
And he sat down with me andstarted talking to me about, how
(20:45):
we could do more business.
And he started saying, you knowhow other States had studios,
editing facilities, taxincentives.
He went down this whole list ofall the things that we didn't
have in Georgia.
And so, he said, I'm trying tofigure how we can bring this
business back.
(21:05):
And I said to him, you're askingthe wrong question.
I said, you're asking how to domore business if we don't have
all these things, why doesanybody come here and do a
business with us at all?
I said, because until we figureout why people come, we can't
figure out how to bring more.
And so, we started a process ofputting together this incredible
(21:28):
board of people who all touchedthe industry.
To make a long story short, inthe four years that I ran the
film commission with thisincredible board, we took it
from 180 million to over abillion in four years.
And today Georgia is 12 and ahalf billion.
(21:50):
Wow.
And the number and the numberone producer of full-length
motion picture films in theworld.
Amanda (21:57):
That's amazing.
I had no idea.
Michael (22:00):
Yeah.
So again, it was focusing on thecore of what drove people to the
state and then building off ofthat.
And you can't go from, wellmaybe some can, but I've never
figured out how to go from theoutside in.
You got to kind of go from thatinside out to build that.
Amanda (22:22):
So people that are working in corporate America, is
that kind of a good strategy forthem as well?
Like focus on what is workinghere and expand out there?
Michael (22:34):
I think it is.
I mean I think a lot of peoplewho, people can be easily
distracted, and that does notmean that you don't look at how
to do things differently or trysomething different than new.
But at some point, if things arenot working the way you want,
(22:56):
you kind of just say, okay,that's not going to work but, at
the same time you're trying todo it.
I think you've also got tocontinue to build on the
strength of whatever it is yourworking.
Let that be the core that holdsyou up.
I mean, if I were in the cookiebusiness, or coffee, we business
(23:16):
never came out with a differentcup of coffee or a different
cookie or a different brownie orwhatever it might have done.
We probably would have been afive-year wonder.
That would have been the end ofbusiness.
So, you experiment withsomething.
We had plenty of stuff thatfailed.
Plenty of stuff that didn'twork, and you learn from them,
and try to figure out why theydidn't work and then maybe
(23:37):
create a new product or aprocess that will allow you to
go into a different area.
One of the things that I thinkthat people can lose track of,
especially, let's say you aresuccessful at a new product or a
new process.
It's not like you're living insome vacuum where your
(23:59):
competitor is not looking to seewhat you're doing.
And if they find that you'redoing something that's really
different, I guess what we wouldsay, something disruptive.
Something in an industry or aproduct, whatever it might be,
that's disruptive.
Remember your competitor, that'sgoing to be their starting
(24:20):
point, right?
Whatever you've done, that's sogreat.
It's like, I got asked thequestion recently at a
University, they said, whatindustries do you think are
still prime to be disrupted?
And I said anything that wasdisruptive five years ago
probably could also be nowdisruptive.
(24:43):
Just look at how they're doingthat, figure out a way to do it
better.
Amanda (24:46):
Yeah.
Because you can just improve onwhat they've already done.
They've gone through all theirfailures and the learning since.
So, you can move to that place.
You had said earlier that, therewere two things the funding and
then the networking that youtalk to people about the most.
We haven't really touched onnetworking very often in the
(25:07):
show, but I feel like it isextremely important in people's
lives.
What do you think as far asnetworking?
How is it that you build a goodnetwork?
Michael (25:20):
Well, I think that this is probably one of my favorite
subjects of all.
Because I think that people makea big mistake in networking, a
lot of people make a bigmistake.
They approach it with what canyou do for me?
And in networking it's got to bea two-way street.
(25:42):
You've got to find, strategicrelationships where you can
benefit each other, and if not,it won't go forward.
At some point, that the personthat you're trying to network
with is going to just feel like,this is really kind of a waste
of my time.
(26:02):
But it's no different than whenyou're selling something that
somebody wants or somebodyneeds, they're going to buy that
from you because obviouslythere's a benefit to them.
Networking is selling.
I mean, that's what it reallyis.
And so, if you're sellingyourself or selling your
(26:23):
business or whatever therelationship is, and what you're
trying to get is to an expansionof that, to find someone that
can help you move into differentareas.
While at the same time, you needto be asking the questions, how
can I help you?
I mean, are there places thatyou're looking to move into,
(26:45):
that maybe I could be of someservice to you.
But I see people going to thesenetworking things and basically,
it's me, me, me, and it's justnot going to work.
You might get a phone number andyou might even get a coffee.
But to get it beyond that, it'sabout, it's about relationships.
I mean networking is nodifferent than any other kind of
(27:08):
a relationship.
It's got to work both ways.
Amanda (27:11):
So what about in this day and age where we've moved so
much to technology and it's lessabout the in person relationship
building?
What do you think?
What do you think that's good oryou think it's bad that we're
less connected?
Michael (27:29):
Well, with what has been going on right now, we're
probably the least connectedwe've ever been, with COVID-19.
Look, I still believe there'sthe human factor of interacting
and actually getting togetherwith people.
(27:50):
I would hope that we never getaway from that.
I mean, even people I talk tonow that are doing a lot of
their business to resume or,whatever type of video
communication we're now usingjust like we are right now.
(28:13):
But there is still something,there's still something
different than that human touch.
I can say this, I do a lot ofpublic speaking and I've done
many podcasts and I've done bigwebinars.
You know, where you've got 3, 4,5, 10,000 people listening.
It's not the same as standing infront of an audience.
Amanda (28:33):
That's true.
Michael (28:34):
It's just not the same of getting that emotional
feedback that you could feel theexpressions on people's faces,
in looking at them, and allthose other interactions.
I think, I hope we never moveaway from that, and I don't
think we are.
I mean this, if you see beforeall this happened, people were
(28:58):
still going to meetings, peoplewere still going to coffees.
I mean, Caribou Coffee would notsurvive.
A Starbucks would not survive ifit wasn't for those personal
kind of meetings that arehappening.
But there's no doubt that you'vegot to have a different set of
skills today.
And learning how to communicatethrough this type of
(29:21):
communication is probably easierfor people who've grown up with
it, than it is for people thathave not.
But on the other hand, here'sthe way I would relate to this.
I am sure that when thetelephone was invented, people
said that is the end of humancommunication.
(29:43):
That's it.
That's it, we're done.
People are never going to wantto go see each other anymore,
they don't have any reason to.
I think this is just thebeginning of a new way of
communicating, and it's just anadd on and it's not.
It's just like talking on a cellphone.
I mean that, that's probablymore that people can relate to.
(30:04):
I mean the fact is that ithasn't been around that long.
And I'm sure when that firsthappened, people started
thinking, well that's the end ofhuman interaction.
And I know that when I sit in acar with, today would be my
grandchildren, and they'resitting in the back seat.
They're not even talking to eachother, they're texting each
other in the backseat.
(30:25):
And I know why they're doing itbecause they don't want me to
know what they're talking about.
But, the thing of it is, is thateveryone's afraid that that's
the end of socialization withyoung, that younger, it's not,
it's just different.
Amanda (30:42):
Yeah, I agree with you.
So, it seems like the strategythough is to continue to
communicate, kind of navigatethis period of time that we're
in, but to always keep in mindlike what is the, what can I do
for them?
How can I help them type ofsituation?
(31:03):
Instead of always thinking aboutwhat's in it for me type of
thing.
Michael (31:08):
Yeah, absolutely.
I mean, I hate the expressionwin-win, but it really is a
win-win.
I mean, people have to feel thatthey're really getting
something.
My son, as an example, has acompany that helps companies
manage strategic relationships.
And when he first told me whathe was doing, he's very
(31:30):
successful at it.
I thought to myself, why does acompany need that?
I mean, it's like, why do theyhave to hire?
I can understand that maybehaving somebody internally, why
do they need an external person?
And the point he made was thatif you're on the inside of a
company, it's hard for you tosee how you're not giving more
(31:52):
than the other side is getting,that you're getting from them.
And that that's why they needsomeone to help manage it.
It's like why do married peoplego to counselors, for me, to
meet some person to help themmanage through a personal issue.
Business relationships are nodifferent.
(32:14):
So, somebody has to feel thatthey're both important to the
relationship.
And I think that's wherenetworking, again, that's where
people I think fail, where theydon't get the understanding of
what they each bring and whytogether they're better.
Amanda (32:31):
I like that.
So, we typically ask people toshare their best story about,
like their war story, getting araise or asking for a raise.
It doesn't have to be youspecifically, but do you have
any awkward, funny, interestingstories about when somebody was
trying to get a raise?
Michael (32:52):
Oh yeah.
Actually I have a great story,the best story.
Amanda (32:55):
Excellent, wow, you're so good.
Michael (32:57):
Yeah.
And the story, actually, it's inthe book.
So, after I won that salescontest that I talked about
earlier, and after I flew homewith that great guy who gave me
the great advice.
My territory where I was asalesman on the road, and my
territory was Western Michigan,and which i ncluded from, so
(33:20):
let's say you know Michigan.
It was everything but the thumbof Michigan.
So, Detroit was a part of thethumb, and this is back in the
heyday of Michigan by the way,in the heyday of Detroit.
And so, I had won this salescontest.
I was doing more business inWestern Michigan th an t he guy
who had all of the th umb o fMichigan.
(33:42):
And he had just opened a bigaccount, they cr ack t his big
account and such a big accountthat, in fact, it was going to
be his only territory.
It was just this one account.
And so, the thumb, or Detroitopened up, and I called my boss
up after th is s ales contest.
And I said, I was 22, and Isaid, I want to take that
(34:08):
territory.
I want that territory inDetroit.
And I said, but I want the wholestate.
And I said, what I'll do is I'llhire someone to work for me in
Western Michigan, take over myterritory and I'll move to
Detroit and I'll take overDetroit, and I'll supervise to
make sure we continue to buildwh at I built in Western
Michigan.
(34:29):
And my boss was a guy named BobLo ris.
Ha ve y o u j ust startedlaughing?
Literally, just st art laughing, and he said to me, he s
aid, kid, he said, you're notready for Detroit.
He said, they'd laugh at you,because I was 22 and I probably
looked 12, he said, you'll walkinto one of these big department
(34:51):
stores and they won't even seeyou.
He said, slow do wn, sl ow down, you're not ready yet.
And I said, I really want theterritory, I want it laid out
exactly as I said.
And if you don't give me theterritory, I'm telling you now,
in January, because this wasSeptember, I said in January I'm
(35:16):
leaving, I'm going to go take adifferent job.
And he said, you're not goi ngto le ave, you just started
making money.
You know you're doing reallywell, you're not.
I said, Bob, I'm telling younow, if you don't give me the
territory, I'm leaving.
He said okay.
Any way, m ake a long storyshort.
I never got the interview withhim.
He hired somebody else, and inDecember I called them up on the
(35:42):
phone because they had sent methe samples for the new line
that we were goi ng to startselling in January.
And I called them up and askedthem what to do with them.
I said, why did they send thisto me?
And he said, well what do youmean?
And I said, well, I'm leaving inJanuary.
And he said, what do you meanyou're leaving?
I said, I told you, if youdidn't give me the territory I
(36:05):
was goi ng to le ave.
And he said, don't go anywhere.
So, he go t on a plane and fl ew in.
The bottom line was that hedidn't give me what I wanted.
I took the advice from the guyon the plane, and basically just
decided, this is why I had totake the ris k.
I quit.
I quit the te rritory.
I m o v ed to Detroit withanother company, and to say that
(36:33):
it was a successful move, wouldbe an understatement.
And plu s, b ecause, at 23, Icracked every major department
store retailer in Michigan, andwound up having three people
working for me in the state.
Every time one of my retailersran a full page ad of what we
(36:56):
were selling, I sent a c o py ofit to my old boss.
Amanda (36:59):
No, you did not?
Michael (37:02):
I did.
We stayed the greatest friendsuntil he passed away just a few
years ago.
And he wound up becomingpresident of the company I was
working for.
And in an interview, they asked,and this is years after I was no
longer working for him.
(37:22):
I was probably now in the cookiebusiness.
They said to him, Bob, you'vehad a great road to success, you
started in the carnivalbusiness, and you wound up in
the clothing business, and youwound up becoming president of
the company you went to work asa salesman.
He said, have you made anymistakes along the way?
And he said, yeah, I didn'tpromote Michael Cole to Detroit.
Amanda (37:43):
No way, that's amazing.
Michael (37:46):
Yeah, So that's the story about trying to get a
raise.
Amanda (37:54):
That is incredible, and I don't think that we could end
on a better story at all.
I can't believe that worked outlike that.
That's amazing.
So, I know that you have thisbook, and all of these amazing
stories, and where can peoplefind the book?
How can they get their hands onthis?
Michael (38:12):
Okay, so it is available both on a hard card
copy and Kindle on Amazon.
And it's at a number of localbookstores as well, love to
promote local bookstores.
And, then my website, whichyou're on right now under
construction, also is availablefor folks, got the video, and it
(38:33):
will have the documentary on it.
Hopefully, it's going to be upin another week, but we just
took it down and completelyrebuilding it.
So, Amazon is a great way, andlike I said, the documentary is
available on YouTube.
Amanda (38:46):
Okay, I'll make sure that I link all of that stuff in
the show notes, and Michael,thank you so much for coming on
the show.
Michael (38:54):
Man, this has been real fun.
Amanda (38:54):
It's been so fun.
It's been a real pleasure, andyou are super inspiring, and
it's incredible your journey,and that raise story is by far
one of the best.
Don't tell anybody else, butthat is definitely the best that
I've heard so far.
Michael (39:08):
Alright, well stay in touch.
Amanda (39:11):
Okay.
Take care.
Hey, thanks so much forlistening today.
If you enjoyed the podcast, youcan subscribe, you can share it
with your friends, and you canclick the share button, take a
screenshot, and share it on yoursocial stories, and then tag me,
at Amanda LeFever.
Thanks again for listening.
I will talk to you guys soon.
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