July 3, 2020 • 32 mins
Should we each be loyal enough to our company to have a straight up conversation about compensation with our boss or manager?
Jeffery Dingle teaches us, “You can't just let that conversation happen to you.” You have to create a case for your career, for your raise, in your day to day activity. You have to understand how you fit in an organization and how your performance impacts other people's performance. And that allows your boss to see you as a major cog in the engine that's driving the whole business.
You cannot be that guy or gal that’s just showing up, doing the same thing every day, and then expect to make more just because you've hung around for a year. If you're producing the same value for the company today that you produced 52 weeks ago, and nothing's improving, nothing's expanding, and you're not bringing more value…
Jeffery Dingle is the VP of Global Strategic Sales for Jacobs Engineering Group headquartered in Atlanta, GA. In his nearly 13 years in engineering, he's worked on projects like the 1996 Olympic venues and infrastructure, the Hartsfield Jackson, Atlanta international airport, and dozens of major transportation and water capital improvement programs.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Amanda (00:01):
What is up, everybody?
Welcome to session 15 of theRaise Up Podcast.
My name is Amanda LeFever, andI'm here to help you make more
money at your job.
And today we have in our corner,Mr.
Jeff Dingle, he's aprofessionally registered civil
engineer in seven States, andhe's the vice president and
global strategic sales leaderfor Jacobs Engineering Group in
(00:23):
Atlanta, in his nearly 35 yearsin engineering, he's worked on
projects like the 1996 Olympicvenues and infrastructure, the
Hartsfield Jackson, AtlantaInternational Airport, and
dozens of major transportationand water capital improvement
programs.
He gives back, he chairs anumber of civic and professional
(00:45):
organizations, plus coachingyouth football and baseball.
Hey, Jeff, thanks for being onthe show.
Jeff (00:51):
No, good to be here, Amanda.
Thank you for having me.
Amanda (00:54):
Yeah, I'm really excited.
So, first, I have to ask, like,COVID-19 has been rough on a lot
of companies.
How are your team and yourfamily kind of coping with all
of the shutdowns?
Jeff (01:06):
Yeah.
You know, I'll start withfamily, you know, the family's
doing great.
There, I have two adult kidsthere.
My son is here with me.
He's getting ready to finish hiscollege career.
But having him here has beengood, and my daughter is doing
well working from home inManhattan.
(01:28):
Workwise, I think, working forJacobs, we've really taken
advantage of the transformationto teleworking, and trying to
use it as part of our cultureenhancements.
We've been making a very bigfocus on improving culture
(01:50):
within Jacobs, and our chairman,CEO, has been hosting a weekly
global town hall through theglobal pandemic.
Basically, informing thepopulation within Jacobs, what's
going on in the business, howour folks are doing with COVID
or various illnesses, that's ourJacob's family.
(02:15):
But it's also been a great timeof sharing and transparency.
That's really been good for thefirm, I think, and the firm was
in good shape financially goingin and we've made the right
moves, I believe, to be able tohang in there during some tough
times as COVID, as I'm settledin, and we're looking forward to
(02:38):
getting back to work, andgrowing the firm again, our big
emphasis is the preservation ofour workforce.
So, a lot of what we've beendoing is focused on how do we
keep our people in the firm,minimizing furloughs and things
like that, but looks promisingahead.
(03:00):
So, we're excited about that.
And the clients continue to putout work.
They're figuring out how tocontinue to expand their capital
, targets, and budgets to keepthe infrastructure going, and
make sure that there's no blipsin that.
So, it's all good.
Amanda (03:21):
That's awesome.
I'm glad that they've beenworking so hard to keep the
workforce.
I know that for a lot of people,they've been struggling because
they have lost their jobs, andsome of the companies haven't
had a huge emphasis on takingcare of their people.
So that's really impressive thatJacobs has made that move.
And you haven't been travelingeither, right?
We were talking about this alittle bit, but you're usually
(03:43):
on the road.
Jeff (03:44):
I'm a guy that travels every week.
I haven't been on an airplanesince the first week of March,
and I don't mind it.
I don't mind not traveling forsure.
I miss the face to faceinteractions.
Of course, it's kinda my job,and I really do enjoy it, I have
the passion for people, and Ilike to interact and work, you
(04:05):
know, work sessions aredifferent now as opposed to
being in a room and up on awhiteboard, capturing thoughts
and developing strategies, butwe're figuring out how to do it
virtually, and because we haveto.
So, it's amazing what you dowhen you have to.
Amanda (04:20):
Yeah.
And the technology too.
I mean, Zoom has been amazingfor so many people.
I don't know if you guys usezoom, but platforms like Zoom
have just really helpedeverybody still collaborate and
meet in a different way.
So, as you know, our show is allabout someone improving their
(04:40):
financial situation, getting araise at their job.
And Jacobs is a globalengineering firm.
If a young engineer came to youas a mentor and said, Jeff, I
know this is a tough time, but Ibelieve I've earned a raise.
How would you recommend they goabout making that happen?
Jeff (04:59):
Right.
Well, you know, I think I'dfirst try to go back if I wasn't
aware of what they've been doingto position themselves for a
raise because you don't just askfor a raise without, some
history, and I think it'simportant that they set the
(05:21):
parameters early.
We've, and again, just to referto Jacobs again, we've been
trying to do a better job ofmaking sure that performance
expectations are laid out at thebeginning of the year.
That everybody's doing that,that people are not
procrastinating on it.
We put heavy pressure on peoplemanagers to make sure that
(05:41):
expectations are set.
So, that at the end of the year,there should be no surprises,
and that's probably almostcliche', but it really has to
work like that.
And the employee, if I wasmentoring employees, like you, I
would go back on how they workedwith their supervisor at the
(06:03):
beginning of the year on whatwas expected of them.
And then, at this time of themeeting, what were they
delivering?
You know, how did they do, howdid you position yourself to get
that raise?
I think it's also important tounderstand where your salary
(06:27):
fits with your peers as well.
And there's research,you can do,most companies that the HR
department will at least givepeople a range of what you
should be receiving at yourlevel.
You need to go into meetingslike that, ready to go.
(06:48):
So, I'd be asking questionsabout, so what have you done up
to now that makes you deservingof a raise, and how much are you
looking for?
You know, and what are youbasing that on?
And I would help them prepare tohave a business conversation
because it really is a businessconversation.
If you've been working on agroup of projects that haven't
(07:10):
made money for the firm.
If you're working for a privateconsulting firm or something if
you've not been profitable ifyou haven't been successfully
delivering success stories foryour clients.
And if you're not in demand byyour clients, if they don't want
to see you back again, as apractitioner, whatever you're
doing.
There's you asking for a raiseis when a boss looks at that
(07:37):
business decision, what is therate of return I get from this
person?
Is this person a high performerand helps me grow my business?
And therefore, I should besharing some of that, that
growth and profit with thisemployee.
(07:58):
Or is this somebody that'sactually a drain on the
business?
They're not making the companymoney.
You have to know where you'repositioned in that, to justify a
raise.
So, you know, I would ask themabout the groundwork they set,
and how they preparedthemselves, and what their brand
looks like, their personalbrand.
(08:20):
What does Jeff Dingle look likein Jacobs?
What is his image?
What do people know about hisperformance or lack there?
So, it would be a lot ofquestions for me.
If someone came and asked aboutthe raise.
Amanda (08:42):
You had said something about like your personal brand,
like, what does Jeff Dingle willlook like in the holistic
picture of Jacobs?
And can you talk more a littlebit about that?
Like what you do to make surethat your personal brand is, is
showing well?
Speaker 3 (09:02):
You know, probably the baseline of it is delivering
what I say I'm going to deliveror doing what I say I'm going to
do.
Being dependable and beingsomebody that acts with the high
level of integrity, predictableoutcomes.
Probably my best boss told me atthe beginning of the first year
(09:26):
I worked with Dan, was in asales role under him.
He told me, at the end of theyear, I just want you to give me
what you say you're going togive me as far as performance.
I'm not gonna stretch you intosomething that you don't feel
comfortable with.
When we have a dialogue at thebeginning, as I talked about,
it's important to set that toneat the beginning of the year.
(09:49):
You know, if you say that you'regoing to deliver this amount,
and we agreed that, that that'san accurate, adequate
contribution to the overallsales group goal, that's all
from you.
Jeff (10:02):
And, you know, I don't want excuses and things like
that.
You know, he was tough.
He was a tough boss, but he wasvery fair.
And I appreciated what I learnedfrom him because it's it really
running a business, any kind ofbusiness, you need predictable
outcomes.
So, if your business is based onpeople, you have to be somebody
that is part of that.
(10:23):
And, branded as such that if Igive you responsibility for some
sort of activity, that'simportant to the business, I
want to be able to not thinkabout it every single day as a
boss.
I want to be able to look morecomprehensively.
(10:43):
I want to layout vision.
I don't want to be worried aboutthe day to day activity that
Jeff Dingle is performing thatto reach those goals.
So, you know, predictableoutcomes, good team work that's
important.
I think collaborative, aresometimes tough to define in our
(11:09):
current culture, people thatwork together and help each
other be successful is a veryvalued asset to most employers.
So, that there's a mentoringgoing on at every level.
So, if you're someone that hasseen that, that your actions
actually spread to otherpeople's actions that people
(11:31):
emulate, how you interact, andhow you perform, that's all the
better and helps theorganization better.
So, your brand is, like I said,it's really how people view you,
but how you, how you're seen asimpacting the business.
Not that you're just a niceperson or that you come to work
(11:51):
with a smile every day.
Are you aggressive when you needto be aggressive?
Do you go with the group whenyou need to go with the group?
Do you support your peers?
Do you, are you frank incriticism when there needs to be
criticism?
When you see something, do yousay something, or do you sit
(12:15):
back and let the group or thecompany go down bad paths?
Are you engaged in trying tosteer?
That doesn't mean that you'retrying to take somebody's job or
above them necessarily, but itmeans that you care about the
business, and you will takebusiness actions upon yourself
as a responsibility to help theteam and the firm do better.
(12:38):
So, the people feel like you'redoing that, it's it frames up
again, when they think about,okay, I have this amount of
money to spend on raises, who amI going to give the most?
You know, how am I going tospread that around?
So, yeah.
Amanda (12:54):
Right.
What do you think has set youapart?
What do you think that you'vedone in your career that's
really set you apart from yourpeers or kind of helped your
trajectory?
Jeff (13:05):
You know, I think I've been able to listen and process,
and so, I've been able to learnmy craft.
I've been focused on learning mycraft.
When I started off as a youngengineer, I spent a lot of time
not being a hotshot, graduateengineer.
(13:27):
I tried to keep a proper levelof humility in everything that I
did and bring a good work ethicto the table.
So, it allowed me to learn andthe older women and men that I
was working with, I think theysaw that attitude, and it made
(13:49):
me more attractive for them topour into me what they knew.
I didn't come in with thisarrogant attitude that turned
people off.
I wanted to contribute to thesuccess of the group that I
worked in when I first started.
So, I like to think I'm in my34th year now; I like to think
(14:14):
that I know what I'm doing inthe business I'm in.
I stuck in this engineeringbusiness because I understand
it, and I believe it.
I've learned how to engage withclients.
So, I'm heavily engaged instrategy.
I bring a level of what I callstrategic aggression based on
(14:35):
how I basically grew up in theneighborhood.
But I use that to, what I call,reach people, where they are.
So, when I have to interact withsomebody that has a different
attitude than I do or has somesort of issue with the firm I w
(14:56):
ork for, or me as a person, youknow, I try to find common
ground as fast as possible.
And sometimes that's listeningto what their concerns are, and
asking them questions on whatissues they see within the firm,
from prior experiences.
So, I find myself able tounderstand people's expectations
(15:23):
and then craft a strategy tomeet those expectations.
Because your customer, again,it's cliche', the customer
really is always right.
You know, if your client ishiring you to do performance
service, you need to fullyunderstand what they're looking
for and how they're looking forit to be delivered.
So, probably my best strength isunderstanding people, so that
(15:48):
understanding people helped melearn my craft.
It made people comfortableteaching me and mentoring me,
and as I learned my craft, beingable to spread that knowledge
base with the people that I wasworking with.
Because I understood how theywere trying to learn as best, I
(16:09):
could as well.
So, that their uptake wasfaster.
So, I believe that I've beenable to lead effective groups.
And with my clients, I do listenand discern sometimes, you the
words they say or when youcombine them with the body
language.
And just the feel that you getfrom them gives you a more
(16:31):
comprehensive understanding ofwhat they're really looking for
and allows you to bring thoseoutcomes that they're expecting.
And that's what starts definingsuccess, I think.
Amanda (16:44):
Yeah, it sounds like the role of relationships has really
been huge in your success andalso like the success of your
clients and the company you workfor as well.
I do want to ask, will you tellus a little bit more about
strategic aggression?
I've never heard that before.
Jeff (17:02):
Well, quite frankly, I grew up in neighborhoods that,
you know, they were a bitchallenging.
There were drugs and gangs andneighborhoods that I grew up in,
and there were bullies, therewere lots of influences that
could have gotten me off track.
And, as a kid, and sometimes Ihad to humble myself and work
(17:28):
around some things.
Sometimes, you have to learn toverbalize your position, and
sometimes you have to facebullies, verbally, and talk your
way out of situations, andsometimes you have to fight.
And I had two older brothers,and we all kind of sharpen our
(17:53):
swords against one another.
We told each other, and still,tell each other, we'll never
lose a fight outside of thishouse.
You might take one within thehouse, but you know, I'm not a
violent person, I know how todefend myself, and I'm confident
that I can defend myself.
So, growing up, I knew when Ineeded to turn around and go
(18:15):
another direction or navigatethrough something verbally, or
if I had to scrap, I had toscrap.
And you grow up like that, notbeing willing to just slink in
and be bullied and be passive.
I grew up understanding when Ineeded to push, and what I
(18:36):
needed to pull, and as I grew upolder and older and I think I
apply it more now, it's the samething at work.
I'm not having fist fights atwork, of course, I don't have
fist fights anyway, I'm too oldfor that.
But you know, when somebody ispushing back when you're in a
spirited conversation, shall wesay, if you're in an argument if
(18:57):
you're working through a dispute, either with a client or with a
teaming partner or thecompetitor.
You have to know when to push,and when to listen, and when to
pull back, when to pullinformation out of someone so
that you can better understand.
(19:19):
All of those tactics a re what Icall my terms of strategic
aggression.
You know when to fight, andthere used to be a song you're
probably too young to remember,I think it was Kenny Rogers, and
you know when to hold'em and know when to fold'em.
Amanda (19:36):
I know that song, that's a good song.
Jeff (19:38):
That's important; you need to know you can't address every
situation the same way.
You have to be strategic abouthow you address every situation.
Everyone is different in yourrelationships, you and your
husband, you know, yourrelationships with peers,
relationships with competitors,you have to know how to reach
(20:04):
people where they are.
And if somebody is coming at youstrong and aggressive, sometimes
it's important to match thatlevel of aggression, or
sometimes it's to diffuse thesituation by trying to hear.
If you can feel like they'rereally trying to get something
across, sometimes just listeningdiffuses it and calms people
(20:25):
down.
That sometimes matching theirlevel of aggression, lets them
know that this is inappropriateand it's unacceptable to you,
and that'll deescalate thingssometimes.
But you just gotta find a way toreach common ground.
I use strategic aggressiontactics, you know, maybe I
(20:48):
should patent that term out.
Amanda (20:49):
You should.
It's really good.
There's a lot of people thatcompletely avoid conflict in all
ways and forms.
So, yeah.
You feel that way?
Jeff (21:01):
I believe that's a mistake, I think conflict
brings, most of the time bringspositive outcomes unless that
conflict makes someone standdown completely, and you don't
want conflict to be that.
You want conflict to besomething that builds respect
(21:23):
and or agreement.
So, just summarily backing downbecause someone's not on the
same level of aggression thatyou might be at that moment, is
not usually a win-win situationseed.
So, I think we should all bemore transparent and frank with
(21:47):
one another to gain betterunderstanding.
Cause we all bring diverseviewpoints to every situation,
and we need to be listening toone another.
And if you slink back, if youdon't engage in those courageous
conversations, the learningstops.
So, I'm just a believer indirect engagement and
(22:09):
transparency.
I don't have anything to hide,and I'm not looking for dirt on
anybody else, but I do want tounderstand people so that I can
bring value to them in whateverengagement I'm involved in.
Amanda (22:25):
So, a lot like a"Radical Candor." Have you ever read that
book before?
No, it's really good.
And it talks a lot about howimportant conflict can be for an
organization, and collaboration,and just relationships in
general.
And so, I like strategicaggression though, better, I
(22:47):
think.
Jeff (22:49):
Yeah.
I'll have to read"RadicalCandor." I'll put that on my
list for sure.
Amanda (22:52):
Yeah, it's a good one.
So, a lot of our guests havetalked about laying groundwork
with your boss for anyconversation about compensation,
but so many things are decidedby like a committee in a
business.
Is there any need to do upfrontrelationship work with other
influencers like a CFO or otherpeople who might, you know, have
(23:17):
a say in whether or not you'regoing to get a raise?
Jeff (23:20):
Absolutely.
Yeah, you need to make yourselfknown as high up in the
organization as you can get.
That doesn't mean that you'realways ringing your own bell and
bragging about all the greatthings that you're doing.
Because various levels of theorganization see that in
(23:41):
different ways.
And so, I think yes, you do needto understand the parameters of
compensation, and if it is acommittee situation, you
definitely need to know thatgoing in.
You need to establish that atthe beginning of the year, you
can ask your boss that duringyour setting of expectations
(24:02):
meeting at the beginning of theyear, that we try to have, in
Jacobs.
You can ask, how's 12 monthsfrom now?
How's it going to get determinedwho gets the highest percentage
raise?
You can ask those kinds ofquestions, and make your boss be
transparent or go get thetransparency.
I think those are all veryappropriate means of being
(24:28):
aggressive in your organization,understanding what the
parameters are.
Once you understand theparameters, if the parameters
are based on six people, youneed to be visible with those
six people, and not just seen asscrambling around, but somebody
that's bringing value again,bringing value to the
organization and contributing totheir success.
(24:49):
How are you making your boss'sboss successful?
How does your boss's bossunderstand how their entire
business unit is benefitingbecause of the work you're
doing?
Those are all incrediblyimportant brand things.
I have seen situations where alist of employees comes up to a
(25:16):
VP, senior VP level of anorganization, and decisions are
literally made on, well, I knowJohn, Sally, and Heather,
they've been heavily engaged,and I've seen them.
So, but what about these otherpeople tell me, what's going on
with these other people?
And when they have to askquestions like that, the number
(25:36):
almost automatically startsgoing down, right?
And unless your boss is able toreally advocate for you or
remind them of something, theydidn't really know about that
they're evaluating, but youdon't want to be in that other
group.
So, what about these otherpeople?
You don't want to be in thatgroup, those are the tail of the
dog, for sure.
Amanda (25:58):
So, do you have any raise stories?
Usually, we'll ask people ifthey have any war stories about
how they've asked for a raise orsomeone that they know has gone
through a compensation, funnyconversation?
Jeff (26:13):
I have one that I actually heard about, they were kind of a
peer.
They were in a parallel businessunit, but I knew this person,
and they were prettyrambunctious, they had been with
us for a couple of years.
This is with the previous firm Iworked for.
And they had been with us acouple of years, and they came
(26:34):
in like a fireball, and they'reall fired up, and very
aggressive.
I don't know if it was alwaysstrategic, but they were very
aggressive, and I rememberhearing the story, how they came
to their performance evaluationwith three offer letters because
they had been shopping otherjobs.
That they could leave if theydidn't get what they wanted in
(26:59):
the company that we were workingat.
And that was not well receivedbecause it felt like they were
leveraging other companies'promise of compensation.
Sometimes you might have to dothat, but this person was not at
(27:19):
a level where that was reallynecessary.
And while that person did get araise, they seemed to be happy
with the raise they got.
Their career really sputtered inthat organization.
It was a small firm, and theytainted their relationship, they
tainted their reputation byusing that tactic that they
(27:40):
weren't loyal enough to have astraight-up conversation about
compensation based on theirmerits within that firm.
They tried to leverage a firmtaking a chance on them and
maybe giving them a little moremoney than they were making to
get them to come over.
And, so it was a short term,relatively effective tool that
(28:05):
they got on a few percentagesraise, but they didn't do well
the rest of their time.
Amanda (28:12):
Right.
Like in the end, it ended upsouring.
Jeff (28:18):
They went over the tipping point of strategic aggression to
just aggression.
Amanda (28:23):
Yeah.
Kind of poisoning the well.
Well, is there anything elsethat you'd kind of like to add
to this whole nationalconversation about getting a
raise?
Jeff (28:36):
The biggest thing I would say is you just can't just let
it happen, let that meetinghappen.
You really have to create whatthat meeting is going to look
like in your day to day activityand your day to day work in your
day to day performance.
Understand how you fit in anorganization and how your
performance impacts otherpeople's performance and allows
them to see you as a major cogin the engine that's driving the
whole business.
And not just somebody that'shanging on and showing up,
whatever month of theperformance evaluation expecting
more compensation becausethey've hung around for a year,
just because you hang around for12 months, does not necessarily
mean that you deserve additionalcompensation.
If you've been having the sameweek of performance every 52
weeks of the year, and nothing'simproving, nothing's expanding.
You're not bringing more value.
I can pretty much bet if yourorganization is having any level
of success, somebody is doingbetter than you, and you need to
be in that group, people reallyfully understand the value of
what they're doing, as opposedto the percentage of staff that
people started looking at, maybewe need to upgrade here, never
be in the upgrade category withyour boss, right?
Always be that performer thatthey can depend on.
Again, like I say, presentingthose predictable outcomes.
When I start off the year, Iknow Amanda's going to provide
five things that we talkedabout, and I don't have to worry
about it, I really believe she'sgoing to come in.
And when she shows up, I'mthinking of her in the top tier
of the compensation pool that Ihave to spend in my business.
So, that's my best.
I frame it up day in and dayout.
Don't wait.
Don't just let it organicallyhappen.
These things don't happenorganically.
They take proactive work anddiligence for sure.
Amanda (30:58):
And asking the questions too, like you had said, ask
those probing questions at thebeginning of the year when
you're setting expectations.
So, what does this look like,and how do I get there?
I think that's where we, we missa lot of it.
Like you had said, it doesn'thappen organically.
We want it to; we want to nothave to ask.
Jeff (31:18):
We just want to hang around for 12 months and get
more money in the 13 months thatdoesn't work like that.
Amanda (31:24):
Right.
Okay.
So, how can people connect withyou?
Like if they want to have aconversation or just connect
with you overall?
Cause you're awesome, and thishas been amazing.
Jeff (31:32):
Yeah.
I'm on LinkedIn, Jeffery is myfirst name, Dingle.
I'm always glad to interact; Iuse LinkedIn to do my
professional networking likemost do so that's probably the
best.
Amanda (31:51):
Awesome.
Well, Jeff, thank you so muchfor being on the show.
You've provided a lot of greatinformation, and I love
strategic aggression andpredictable outcomes.
I'm going to use those terms.
I'll give you credit.
I'll give you credit.
Jeff (32:09):
I had a very pleasant experience in my first podcast,
so I appreciate you, Amanda
Amanda (32:12):
You did awesome.
You did so good.
Thank you.
Thank you.
What is up, everybody?
Welcome to session 15 of theRaise Up Podcast.
My name is Amanda LeFever, andI'm here to help you make more
money at your job.
And today we have in our corner,Mr.
Jeff Dingle, he's aprofessionally registered civil
engineer in seven States, andhe's the vice president and
global strategic sales leaderfor Jacobs Engineering Group in
(00:23):
Atlanta, in his nearly 35 yearsin engineering, he's worked on
projects like the 1996 Olympicvenues and infrastructure, the
Hartsfield Jackson, AtlantaInternational Airport, and
dozens of major transportationand water capital improvement
programs.
He gives back, he chairs anumber of civic and professional
(00:45):
organizations, plus coachingyouth football and baseball.
Hey, Jeff, thanks for being onthe show.
Jeff (00:51):
No, good to be here, Amanda.
Thank you for having me.
Amanda (00:54):
Yeah, I'm really excited.
So, first, I have to ask, like,COVID-19 has been rough on a lot
of companies.
How are your team and yourfamily kind of coping with all
of the shutdowns?
Jeff (01:06):
Yeah.
You know, I'll start withfamily, you know, the family's
doing great.
There, I have two adult kidsthere.
My son is here with me.
He's getting ready to finish hiscollege career.
But having him here has beengood, and my daughter is doing
well working from home inManhattan.
(01:28):
Workwise, I think, working forJacobs, we've really taken
advantage of the transformationto teleworking, and trying to
use it as part of our cultureenhancements.
We've been making a very bigfocus on improving culture
(01:50):
within Jacobs, and our chairman,CEO, has been hosting a weekly
global town hall through theglobal pandemic.
Basically, informing thepopulation within Jacobs, what's
going on in the business, howour folks are doing with COVID
or various illnesses, that's ourJacob's family.
(02:15):
But it's also been a great timeof sharing and transparency.
That's really been good for thefirm, I think, and the firm was
in good shape financially goingin and we've made the right
moves, I believe, to be able tohang in there during some tough
times as COVID, as I'm settledin, and we're looking forward to
(02:38):
getting back to work, andgrowing the firm again, our big
emphasis is the preservation ofour workforce.
So, a lot of what we've beendoing is focused on how do we
keep our people in the firm,minimizing furloughs and things
like that, but looks promisingahead.
(03:00):
So, we're excited about that.
And the clients continue to putout work.
They're figuring out how tocontinue to expand their capital
, targets, and budgets to keepthe infrastructure going, and
make sure that there's no blipsin that.
So, it's all good.
Amanda (03:21):
That's awesome.
I'm glad that they've beenworking so hard to keep the
workforce.
I know that for a lot of people,they've been struggling because
they have lost their jobs, andsome of the companies haven't
had a huge emphasis on takingcare of their people.
So that's really impressive thatJacobs has made that move.
And you haven't been travelingeither, right?
We were talking about this alittle bit, but you're usually
(03:43):
on the road.
Jeff (03:44):
I'm a guy that travels every week.
I haven't been on an airplanesince the first week of March,
and I don't mind it.
I don't mind not traveling forsure.
I miss the face to faceinteractions.
Of course, it's kinda my job,and I really do enjoy it, I have
the passion for people, and Ilike to interact and work, you
(04:05):
know, work sessions aredifferent now as opposed to
being in a room and up on awhiteboard, capturing thoughts
and developing strategies, butwe're figuring out how to do it
virtually, and because we haveto.
So, it's amazing what you dowhen you have to.
Amanda (04:20):
Yeah.
And the technology too.
I mean, Zoom has been amazingfor so many people.
I don't know if you guys usezoom, but platforms like Zoom
have just really helpedeverybody still collaborate and
meet in a different way.
So, as you know, our show is allabout someone improving their
(04:40):
financial situation, getting araise at their job.
And Jacobs is a globalengineering firm.
If a young engineer came to youas a mentor and said, Jeff, I
know this is a tough time, but Ibelieve I've earned a raise.
How would you recommend they goabout making that happen?
Jeff (04:59):
Right.
Well, you know, I think I'dfirst try to go back if I wasn't
aware of what they've been doingto position themselves for a
raise because you don't just askfor a raise without, some
history, and I think it'simportant that they set the
(05:21):
parameters early.
We've, and again, just to referto Jacobs again, we've been
trying to do a better job ofmaking sure that performance
expectations are laid out at thebeginning of the year.
That everybody's doing that,that people are not
procrastinating on it.
We put heavy pressure on peoplemanagers to make sure that
(05:41):
expectations are set.
So, that at the end of the year,there should be no surprises,
and that's probably almostcliche', but it really has to
work like that.
And the employee, if I wasmentoring employees, like you, I
would go back on how they workedwith their supervisor at the
(06:03):
beginning of the year on whatwas expected of them.
And then, at this time of themeeting, what were they
delivering?
You know, how did they do, howdid you position yourself to get
that raise?
I think it's also important tounderstand where your salary
(06:27):
fits with your peers as well.
And there's research,you can do,most companies that the HR
department will at least givepeople a range of what you
should be receiving at yourlevel.
You need to go into meetingslike that, ready to go.
(06:48):
So, I'd be asking questionsabout, so what have you done up
to now that makes you deservingof a raise, and how much are you
looking for?
You know, and what are youbasing that on?
And I would help them prepare tohave a business conversation
because it really is a businessconversation.
If you've been working on agroup of projects that haven't
(07:10):
made money for the firm.
If you're working for a privateconsulting firm or something if
you've not been profitable ifyou haven't been successfully
delivering success stories foryour clients.
And if you're not in demand byyour clients, if they don't want
to see you back again, as apractitioner, whatever you're
doing.
There's you asking for a raiseis when a boss looks at that
(07:37):
business decision, what is therate of return I get from this
person?
Is this person a high performerand helps me grow my business?
And therefore, I should besharing some of that, that
growth and profit with thisemployee.
(07:58):
Or is this somebody that'sactually a drain on the
business?
They're not making the companymoney.
You have to know where you'repositioned in that, to justify a
raise.
So, you know, I would ask themabout the groundwork they set,
and how they preparedthemselves, and what their brand
looks like, their personalbrand.
(08:20):
What does Jeff Dingle look likein Jacobs?
What is his image?
What do people know about hisperformance or lack there?
So, it would be a lot ofquestions for me.
If someone came and asked aboutthe raise.
Amanda (08:42):
You had said something about like your personal brand,
like, what does Jeff Dingle willlook like in the holistic
picture of Jacobs?
And can you talk more a littlebit about that?
Like what you do to make surethat your personal brand is, is
showing well?
Speaker 3 (09:02):
You know, probably the baseline of it is delivering
what I say I'm going to deliveror doing what I say I'm going to
do.
Being dependable and beingsomebody that acts with the high
level of integrity, predictableoutcomes.
Probably my best boss told me atthe beginning of the first year
(09:26):
I worked with Dan, was in asales role under him.
He told me, at the end of theyear, I just want you to give me
what you say you're going togive me as far as performance.
I'm not gonna stretch you intosomething that you don't feel
comfortable with.
When we have a dialogue at thebeginning, as I talked about,
it's important to set that toneat the beginning of the year.
(09:49):
You know, if you say that you'regoing to deliver this amount,
and we agreed that, that that'san accurate, adequate
contribution to the overallsales group goal, that's all
from you.
Jeff (10:02):
And, you know, I don't want excuses and things like
that.
You know, he was tough.
He was a tough boss, but he wasvery fair.
And I appreciated what I learnedfrom him because it's it really
running a business, any kind ofbusiness, you need predictable
outcomes.
So, if your business is based onpeople, you have to be somebody
that is part of that.
(10:23):
And, branded as such that if Igive you responsibility for some
sort of activity, that'simportant to the business, I
want to be able to not thinkabout it every single day as a
boss.
I want to be able to look morecomprehensively.
(10:43):
I want to layout vision.
I don't want to be worried aboutthe day to day activity that
Jeff Dingle is performing thatto reach those goals.
So, you know, predictableoutcomes, good team work that's
important.
I think collaborative, aresometimes tough to define in our
(11:09):
current culture, people thatwork together and help each
other be successful is a veryvalued asset to most employers.
So, that there's a mentoringgoing on at every level.
So, if you're someone that hasseen that, that your actions
actually spread to otherpeople's actions that people
(11:31):
emulate, how you interact, andhow you perform, that's all the
better and helps theorganization better.
So, your brand is, like I said,it's really how people view you,
but how you, how you're seen asimpacting the business.
Not that you're just a niceperson or that you come to work
(11:51):
with a smile every day.
Are you aggressive when you needto be aggressive?
Do you go with the group whenyou need to go with the group?
Do you support your peers?
Do you, are you frank incriticism when there needs to be
criticism?
When you see something, do yousay something, or do you sit
(12:15):
back and let the group or thecompany go down bad paths?
Are you engaged in trying tosteer?
That doesn't mean that you'retrying to take somebody's job or
above them necessarily, but itmeans that you care about the
business, and you will takebusiness actions upon yourself
as a responsibility to help theteam and the firm do better.
(12:38):
So, the people feel like you'redoing that, it's it frames up
again, when they think about,okay, I have this amount of
money to spend on raises, who amI going to give the most?
You know, how am I going tospread that around?
So, yeah.
Amanda (12:54):
Right.
What do you think has set youapart?
What do you think that you'vedone in your career that's
really set you apart from yourpeers or kind of helped your
trajectory?
Jeff (13:05):
You know, I think I've been able to listen and process,
and so, I've been able to learnmy craft.
I've been focused on learning mycraft.
When I started off as a youngengineer, I spent a lot of time
not being a hotshot, graduateengineer.
(13:27):
I tried to keep a proper levelof humility in everything that I
did and bring a good work ethicto the table.
So, it allowed me to learn andthe older women and men that I
was working with, I think theysaw that attitude, and it made
(13:49):
me more attractive for them topour into me what they knew.
I didn't come in with thisarrogant attitude that turned
people off.
I wanted to contribute to thesuccess of the group that I
worked in when I first started.
So, I like to think I'm in my34th year now; I like to think
(14:14):
that I know what I'm doing inthe business I'm in.
I stuck in this engineeringbusiness because I understand
it, and I believe it.
I've learned how to engage withclients.
So, I'm heavily engaged instrategy.
I bring a level of what I callstrategic aggression based on
(14:35):
how I basically grew up in theneighborhood.
But I use that to, what I call,reach people, where they are.
So, when I have to interact withsomebody that has a different
attitude than I do or has somesort of issue with the firm I w
(14:56):
ork for, or me as a person, youknow, I try to find common
ground as fast as possible.
And sometimes that's listeningto what their concerns are, and
asking them questions on whatissues they see within the firm,
from prior experiences.
So, I find myself able tounderstand people's expectations
(15:23):
and then craft a strategy tomeet those expectations.
Because your customer, again,it's cliche', the customer
really is always right.
You know, if your client ishiring you to do performance
service, you need to fullyunderstand what they're looking
for and how they're looking forit to be delivered.
So, probably my best strength isunderstanding people, so that
(15:48):
understanding people helped melearn my craft.
It made people comfortableteaching me and mentoring me,
and as I learned my craft, beingable to spread that knowledge
base with the people that I wasworking with.
Because I understood how theywere trying to learn as best, I
(16:09):
could as well.
So, that their uptake wasfaster.
So, I believe that I've beenable to lead effective groups.
And with my clients, I do listenand discern sometimes, you the
words they say or when youcombine them with the body
language.
And just the feel that you getfrom them gives you a more
(16:31):
comprehensive understanding ofwhat they're really looking for
and allows you to bring thoseoutcomes that they're expecting.
And that's what starts definingsuccess, I think.
Amanda (16:44):
Yeah, it sounds like the role of relationships has really
been huge in your success andalso like the success of your
clients and the company you workfor as well.
I do want to ask, will you tellus a little bit more about
strategic aggression?
I've never heard that before.
Jeff (17:02):
Well, quite frankly, I grew up in neighborhoods that,
you know, they were a bitchallenging.
There were drugs and gangs andneighborhoods that I grew up in,
and there were bullies, therewere lots of influences that
could have gotten me off track.
And, as a kid, and sometimes Ihad to humble myself and work
(17:28):
around some things.
Sometimes, you have to learn toverbalize your position, and
sometimes you have to facebullies, verbally, and talk your
way out of situations, andsometimes you have to fight.
And I had two older brothers,and we all kind of sharpen our
(17:53):
swords against one another.
We told each other, and still,tell each other, we'll never
lose a fight outside of thishouse.
You might take one within thehouse, but you know, I'm not a
violent person, I know how todefend myself, and I'm confident
that I can defend myself.
So, growing up, I knew when Ineeded to turn around and go
(18:15):
another direction or navigatethrough something verbally, or
if I had to scrap, I had toscrap.
And you grow up like that, notbeing willing to just slink in
and be bullied and be passive.
I grew up understanding when Ineeded to push, and what I
(18:36):
needed to pull, and as I grew upolder and older and I think I
apply it more now, it's the samething at work.
I'm not having fist fights atwork, of course, I don't have
fist fights anyway, I'm too oldfor that.
But you know, when somebody ispushing back when you're in a
spirited conversation, shall wesay, if you're in an argument if
(18:57):
you're working through a dispute, either with a client or with a
teaming partner or thecompetitor.
You have to know when to push,and when to listen, and when to
pull back, when to pullinformation out of someone so
that you can better understand.
(19:19):
All of those tactics a re what Icall my terms of strategic
aggression.
You know when to fight, andthere used to be a song you're
probably too young to remember,I think it was Kenny Rogers, and
you know when to hold'em and know when to fold'em.
Amanda (19:36):
I know that song, that's a good song.
Jeff (19:38):
That's important; you need to know you can't address every
situation the same way.
You have to be strategic abouthow you address every situation.
Everyone is different in yourrelationships, you and your
husband, you know, yourrelationships with peers,
relationships with competitors,you have to know how to reach
(20:04):
people where they are.
And if somebody is coming at youstrong and aggressive, sometimes
it's important to match thatlevel of aggression, or
sometimes it's to diffuse thesituation by trying to hear.
If you can feel like they'rereally trying to get something
across, sometimes just listeningdiffuses it and calms people
(20:25):
down.
That sometimes matching theirlevel of aggression, lets them
know that this is inappropriateand it's unacceptable to you,
and that'll deescalate thingssometimes.
But you just gotta find a way toreach common ground.
I use strategic aggressiontactics, you know, maybe I
(20:48):
should patent that term out.
Amanda (20:49):
You should.
It's really good.
There's a lot of people thatcompletely avoid conflict in all
ways and forms.
So, yeah.
You feel that way?
Jeff (21:01):
I believe that's a mistake, I think conflict
brings, most of the time bringspositive outcomes unless that
conflict makes someone standdown completely, and you don't
want conflict to be that.
You want conflict to besomething that builds respect
(21:23):
and or agreement.
So, just summarily backing downbecause someone's not on the
same level of aggression thatyou might be at that moment, is
not usually a win-win situationseed.
So, I think we should all bemore transparent and frank with
(21:47):
one another to gain betterunderstanding.
Cause we all bring diverseviewpoints to every situation,
and we need to be listening toone another.
And if you slink back, if youdon't engage in those courageous
conversations, the learningstops.
So, I'm just a believer indirect engagement and
(22:09):
transparency.
I don't have anything to hide,and I'm not looking for dirt on
anybody else, but I do want tounderstand people so that I can
bring value to them in whateverengagement I'm involved in.
Amanda (22:25):
So, a lot like a"Radical Candor." Have you ever read that
book before?
No, it's really good.
And it talks a lot about howimportant conflict can be for an
organization, and collaboration,and just relationships in
general.
And so, I like strategicaggression though, better, I
(22:47):
think.
Jeff (22:49):
Yeah.
I'll have to read"RadicalCandor." I'll put that on my
list for sure.
Amanda (22:52):
Yeah, it's a good one.
So, a lot of our guests havetalked about laying groundwork
with your boss for anyconversation about compensation,
but so many things are decidedby like a committee in a
business.
Is there any need to do upfrontrelationship work with other
influencers like a CFO or otherpeople who might, you know, have
(23:17):
a say in whether or not you'regoing to get a raise?
Jeff (23:20):
Absolutely.
Yeah, you need to make yourselfknown as high up in the
organization as you can get.
That doesn't mean that you'realways ringing your own bell and
bragging about all the greatthings that you're doing.
Because various levels of theorganization see that in
(23:41):
different ways.
And so, I think yes, you do needto understand the parameters of
compensation, and if it is acommittee situation, you
definitely need to know thatgoing in.
You need to establish that atthe beginning of the year, you
can ask your boss that duringyour setting of expectations
(24:02):
meeting at the beginning of theyear, that we try to have, in
Jacobs.
You can ask, how's 12 monthsfrom now?
How's it going to get determinedwho gets the highest percentage
raise?
You can ask those kinds ofquestions, and make your boss be
transparent or go get thetransparency.
I think those are all veryappropriate means of being
(24:28):
aggressive in your organization,understanding what the
parameters are.
Once you understand theparameters, if the parameters
are based on six people, youneed to be visible with those
six people, and not just seen asscrambling around, but somebody
that's bringing value again,bringing value to the
organization and contributing totheir success.
(24:49):
How are you making your boss'sboss successful?
How does your boss's bossunderstand how their entire
business unit is benefitingbecause of the work you're
doing?
Those are all incrediblyimportant brand things.
I have seen situations where alist of employees comes up to a
(25:16):
VP, senior VP level of anorganization, and decisions are
literally made on, well, I knowJohn, Sally, and Heather,
they've been heavily engaged,and I've seen them.
So, but what about these otherpeople tell me, what's going on
with these other people?
And when they have to askquestions like that, the number
(25:36):
almost automatically startsgoing down, right?
And unless your boss is able toreally advocate for you or
remind them of something, theydidn't really know about that
they're evaluating, but youdon't want to be in that other
group.
So, what about these otherpeople?
You don't want to be in thatgroup, those are the tail of the
dog, for sure.
Amanda (25:58):
So, do you have any raise stories?
Usually, we'll ask people ifthey have any war stories about
how they've asked for a raise orsomeone that they know has gone
through a compensation, funnyconversation?
Jeff (26:13):
I have one that I actually heard about, they were kind of a
peer.
They were in a parallel businessunit, but I knew this person,
and they were prettyrambunctious, they had been with
us for a couple of years.
This is with the previous firm Iworked for.
And they had been with us acouple of years, and they came
(26:34):
in like a fireball, and they'reall fired up, and very
aggressive.
I don't know if it was alwaysstrategic, but they were very
aggressive, and I rememberhearing the story, how they came
to their performance evaluationwith three offer letters because
they had been shopping otherjobs.
That they could leave if theydidn't get what they wanted in
(26:59):
the company that we were workingat.
And that was not well receivedbecause it felt like they were
leveraging other companies'promise of compensation.
Sometimes you might have to dothat, but this person was not at
(27:19):
a level where that was reallynecessary.
And while that person did get araise, they seemed to be happy
with the raise they got.
Their career really sputtered inthat organization.
It was a small firm, and theytainted their relationship, they
tainted their reputation byusing that tactic that they
(27:40):
weren't loyal enough to have astraight-up conversation about
compensation based on theirmerits within that firm.
They tried to leverage a firmtaking a chance on them and
maybe giving them a little moremoney than they were making to
get them to come over.
And, so it was a short term,relatively effective tool that
(28:05):
they got on a few percentagesraise, but they didn't do well
the rest of their time.
Amanda (28:12):
Right.
Like in the end, it ended upsouring.
Jeff (28:18):
They went over the tipping point of strategic aggression to
just aggression.
Amanda (28:23):
Yeah.
Kind of poisoning the well.
Well, is there anything elsethat you'd kind of like to add
to this whole nationalconversation about getting a
raise?
Jeff (28:36):
The biggest thing I would say is you just can't just let
it happen, let that meetinghappen.
You really have to create whatthat meeting is going to look
like in your day to day activityand your day to day work in your
day to day performance.
Understand how you fit in anorganization and how your
performance impacts otherpeople's performance and allows
them to see you as a major cogin the engine that's driving the
whole business.
And not just somebody that'shanging on and showing up,
whatever month of theperformance evaluation expecting
more compensation becausethey've hung around for a year,
just because you hang around for12 months, does not necessarily
mean that you deserve additionalcompensation.
If you've been having the sameweek of performance every 52
weeks of the year, and nothing'simproving, nothing's expanding.
You're not bringing more value.
I can pretty much bet if yourorganization is having any level
of success, somebody is doingbetter than you, and you need to
be in that group, people reallyfully understand the value of
what they're doing, as opposedto the percentage of staff that
people started looking at, maybewe need to upgrade here, never
be in the upgrade category withyour boss, right?
Always be that performer thatthey can depend on.
Again, like I say, presentingthose predictable outcomes.
When I start off the year, Iknow Amanda's going to provide
five things that we talkedabout, and I don't have to worry
about it, I really believe she'sgoing to come in.
And when she shows up, I'mthinking of her in the top tier
of the compensation pool that Ihave to spend in my business.
So, that's my best.
I frame it up day in and dayout.
Don't wait.
Don't just let it organicallyhappen.
These things don't happenorganically.
They take proactive work anddiligence for sure.
Amanda (30:58):
And asking the questions too, like you had said, ask
those probing questions at thebeginning of the year when
you're setting expectations.
So, what does this look like,and how do I get there?
I think that's where we, we missa lot of it.
Like you had said, it doesn'thappen organically.
We want it to; we want to nothave to ask.
Jeff (31:18):
We just want to hang around for 12 months and get
more money in the 13 months thatdoesn't work like that.
Amanda (31:24):
Right.
Okay.
So, how can people connect withyou?
Like if they want to have aconversation or just connect
with you overall?
Cause you're awesome, and thishas been amazing.
Jeff (31:32):
Yeah.
I'm on LinkedIn, Jeffery is myfirst name, Dingle.
I'm always glad to interact; Iuse LinkedIn to do my
professional networking likemost do so that's probably the
best.
Amanda (31:51):
Awesome.
Well, Jeff, thank you so muchfor being on the show.
You've provided a lot of greatinformation, and I love
strategic aggression andpredictable outcomes.
I'm going to use those terms.
I'll give you credit.
I'll give you credit.
Jeff (32:09):
I had a very pleasant experience in my first podcast,
so I appreciate you, Amanda
Amanda (32:12):
You did awesome.
You did so good.
Thank you.
Thank you.
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