May 7, 2020 • 26 mins
She's the first female engineer in her family, and has not only lived all over the world but journeyed up the corporate ladder at a rapid pace. I'm so excited to introduce to you to my new friend, Cindy Deekitwong, Global Head of Marketing, 3D Printing at Henkel.
She believes in smashing Legos, and if you're not uncomfortable in your role, you're not stretching enough to be successful in the workplace. Cindy shares her Big 5 Real-Life Lessons, something you definitely want to hear, and how her mission is always to help one person to improve personally or professionally - and today that might be you.
I can't wait for you to listen! Check it out now.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Cindy (00:00):
No matter how good you are as a high potential top
talent employee, you can not gothat far.
So, don't under-estimate at allthe power of collaboration.
You want to go far, and you wantto go fast, learn to collaborate
with others.
Amanda (00:21):
Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the raise up podcast.
I'm so glad you're here andexcited to introduce you to
Cindy Deekitwong.
She is a global head ofmarketing for 3D printing in the
adhesive technologies businessunit at Henkel.
She's a chemical engineer, hasan executive degree in supply
chain management from MIT, andis a master black belt in Six
(00:43):
Sigma.
During her 18 years as part ofthe Henkel organization, she has
lived all over the world,including Thailand and Japan,
but recently relocated back toHenkel's US headquarters in
Rocky Hill, Connecticut, to takeon the leadership role in global
marketing in the 3D printingdivision.
Cindy, thank you so much forcoming on the show.
(01:06):
I'm really excited to have youhere today.
Cindy (01:08):
Nice to meet you, Amanda, and thank you for having me
here.
Amanda (01:11):
Absolutely.
So, first I was doing someresearch and I saw that you had
lived in Japan for awhile.
Travis and I visited in 2016 andI loved it.
So, tell me a little bit aboutyour world travels.
Have you been all over?
Cindy (01:25):
Yeah, so, I started my career in Thailand at the time.
I'm a first generation of femaleengineers, so you can imagine at
the time I have a lot of energyand power to really go out of my
country, so, that I can comeback and help the people,
especially the female engineers,to grow.
So, that's why I reached out tothe headquarters at the time in
(01:48):
the US and applied for technicalservice engineering.
I got the job in 2003, and sincethen, I've been moving within
the country, across the country,international.
So, Japan, Thailand, within theUS, California, Boston, and then
back again in California.
So, yes, the key here is that myfamily is flexible.
(02:12):
They go with me, my husband andmy twins come with me along the
journey.
So, I'm very grateful for that.
Amanda (02:19):
That's awesome.
And it sounds like you've beenall over.
How are you liking Connecticut?
Cindy (02:25):
Well, I looked at the school system, which is great,
and I would say the food is alsonice.
Amanda (02:30):
Good.
That's awesome.
So, let's talk a little bitabout navigating corporate
culture.
Good and bad.
You're a chemical engineer bytraining, and my husband says
that chemical engineers make thebest CEOs because they're
trained to think about second,third, and even fourth-order
(02:50):
cause and effects of a processchange.
Do you think he's right?
Do you feel like he's right onthat one?
Cindy (02:57):
I may be a little bit bias, but with an engineering
background, I would say so, andthe key for me is that the
engineering background gives yousuch a sense of logical
foundation, to be logical, to beable to take risks, to
understand how to mitigate therisk in a more systematic way.
That's why when I take any newproject, anytime the engineering
(03:20):
sense of thing helping me getthrough all the challenges.
Amanda (03:23):
That's amazing.
And I love that you're afirst-generation engineer by the
way.
I bet your family is so proud ofyou.
Yeah.
Okay, so before the show, wewere talking just a little bit,
and I would love it if you wouldtell the audience a little bit
about your big five.
Would you be willing to do that?
Cindy (03:45):
Amanda, but before sharing with you all about my
big five, I call big fivereal-life lessons for me, the
motivation is that why I'm doingthis, to me, if after the
Podcast, and I can motivate orinspire one, just only one
person to go out and be a betterself, not better someone else, I
(04:06):
achieve my goal.
That's why I come up with thisbig five real-life lessons, and
the lesson throughout my careerthat I like to share.
Number one is about seekingfirst to understand, and
oftentimes we look at the personsitting opposite of you.
You just give it in the contextof what you think that person
(04:27):
is.
I myself, I grew up in a verymoderate family.
My mother and my father, werenurses.
My mom is an ER nurse, and mydad is the nurse after the
surgery taking care of thepatients.
So, I grew up in the hospital,and I see things that most of
the kids at my age, they don'tsee.
For example, the lady that cameout of the building with the
(04:49):
fake boob and people who design,right?
I mean, this is surgery here.
You didn't do this so and so,but guess what?
The lady had cancer, right?
So, sometimes it's alwaysimportant for you, especially
growing to be an authenticleader, to seek first to
understand what's behind that,there's always something behind.
Don't jump to the conclusion,and to spend time to at least to
(05:12):
understand the other side of thetable.
So that is my number one, thebig real-life lesson number two,
if you look at the picture ofthe rubber band, right?
The rubber band, to me,represents how you can challenge
yourself.
It's about knowing yourself,knowing your capability, your
(05:33):
capacity, and always challengesyourself.
Challenging your team, stretchout of your comfort zone, right?
I always talk to my youngercolleagues and say, do you feel
comfortable in your career rightnow?
If the answer is yes, that isnot a healthy sign.
Feeling uncomfortable,especially for the female
(05:56):
professional, is a very goodsign.
You are growing.
But at the same time when youtalk about a rubber band,
stretching yourself, one thingthat is very important is the
ability to bounce back.
How do you deal with adversitywhen things are not going right?
How are you recovering?
How do you bounce back fromthose challenges?
(06:17):
Right?
And one thing I always share,the trick, and the technique to
bounce back more effectively isall about acceptance.
Acknowledge yourself, do youfeel sad, mad, frustrated?
Let it be.
Allow yourself to be, and withthat, you can recover.
You can bounce back, be moreresilient because your brain is
(06:40):
reframing.
Your brain is accepting, and nowyou don't feel so good, and you
let yourself be, and then theability to recover is even
better.
So, that's my lesson number two,is to think about the rubber
band, stretch yourself outsideof your comfort zone.
But again, be aware, you don'twant to break the rubber.
(07:00):
You want to have the awarenessto be able to come back, and you
should.
Lesson number three.
Amanda (07:07):
Lesson number three.
I have one question.
You feel like you have stretcheda lot in your career?
Yes, at every stage?
Or do you think that there'sbeen times that it's been a
little bit easier, or do youthink that you are constantly
stretching?
Cindy (07:24):
I'm constantly challenging m yself.
But of course, you have yourdown-time, right?
When you have downtime, thatdoesn't mean that you don't
stress yourself.
I think that's allowing yourselfto be, and acknowledge that you
are tired today so, you sleepwell, and then tomorrow, that's
another day that you canchallenge it more.
Amanda (07:46):
Yeah.
That's awesome.
Okay.
What's lesson number three?
Cindy (07:50):
Lesson number three, this is my twins favorite.
So, I have nine-year-old,identical twins.
One of their hobbies, they loveLegos.
They s pend hours, and hours,and hours building with Legos.
And guess what?
Right at almost the end, theysmash the Legos.
(08:10):
E xactly, Amanda.
I'm saying, oh, don't do that.
It's given me such a huge momentof reflection, and do you know
why?
Because, they told me, mom,don't worry, I can make it
better, and faster next time.
As a n adult, I think we prettymuch have a fixed mindset.
We're building, we spend timedoing things, and we don't want
(08:31):
to break it.
We feel a certain security in this c ertain world th at w e live
in.
But look at my kids, that momenthas given me so much power to
really think about life, thatthere are also times to take ri
sks.
You lose 100 hundred percent ofthe sh ots y ou don't take.
(08:51):
So, I think for me, it's aboutLegos, it's about growth
mindset, and adults have a fixedmindset.
So, I actually say thank you tomy twins, that ga ve m e one of
the big five real-life lessons.
Amanda (09:06):
I love that.
I love that.
Build it faster the second time.
I've never thought about it thatway, to be honest.
My daughter tears them down veryquickly, but she does, she makes
them better each time andfaster.
Cindy (09:22):
They're not afraid to take risks, they just do it.
Amanda (09:27):
I don't know where we lose that when we become adults.
Somehow, we become morecalculated a little bit.
But I like that.
I wrote that one down, I'vewritten them all down actually.
So, I'm ready for your numberfour.
This is good.
Cindy (09:42):
I need your help.
So, the number four is about atrain.
I want to ask you a questionAmanda.
You know the French train and aGerman train, which train, this
is a controversial question,which train is going faster?
Amanda (10:00):
Oh, no.
I have no idea.
Cindy (10:03):
So I'll give you a hint.
So, Germany, they make a bettertrain.
The train technology in Germanyis very, very advanced.
The French, not so much.
But the answer to the train thatgoes faster between the two is
the French train.
And the reason behind that isthe French work with the tr ain
(10:27):
t rack company.
They create a collaborationbetween the train itself and the
train track.
The German train, they have atrain company, and a tr ain t
rack company,and they don'treally collaborate.
The message for me on my lessonnumber four is about the power
of collaboration.
(10:48):
As a high potential top talentemployee, you cannot go that
far.
So don't under-estimate at allthe power of collaboration.
You want to go far, and you wantto go fast, learn to collaborate
with others.
Amanda (11:04):
I love that.
Okay, so I know that I have alot of high achievers that are
listening, and so how have you,you're very much a higher
achiever, I believe it shows.
How have you learned to navigatethat collaboration with a team
where you are moving quicklybecause sometimes you feel like
(11:26):
you're going slower when youhave to collaborate.
So what is your advice aboutthat?
Cindy (11:33):
Yeah, to me, the collaboration is about give and
take.
Collaboration is alsounderstanding what is in it for
them, what is in it for me,right?
Because in the end, you don'twant to do just what is in it
for me.
You want to take something thatis in it for them as well.
So, that, to me, is a meaning ofcollaboration, right?
You're not doing it just byyourself.
(11:54):
You understand the big picture,the benefit to them, benefit to
you, benefit to theorganization.
And then, when you start tosteer the ship into that
direction, then thecollaboration comes in, because
people buy-in.
They know that if they followyou, t hey're g oing t o grow.
They're g oing t o get somethingout of this relationship as
well.
Amanda (12:13):
And so, there's an element of trust there too as
well, right?
That they know that you aregoing to have their back and
that you will work with theminstead of leaving them behind.
I love that.
I really love that.
Okay, I'm ready for number five.
Cindy (12:31):
Last but not least my big real-life lesson number five,
and especially with a youngerprofessional, and female
professional.
As a female, we are so, so goodat managing peers, managing
people on the team, managingdownwards.
We all struggle when we manageupwards.
(12:51):
The last lesson that I learnedand want to share is about the
foundation, how you presentyourself upwards.
Look at the picture of the tableor the stool with the three
legs, to me, that's afoundation.
Presenting yourself upwards,first of all, you know yourself,
(13:11):
you know who you are, youembrace who you are, and I give
you an example of myself.
I'm Thai, I have an accent, andI can step back, and not be so
confident i n what I say.
But I found out it's not aboutmy accent, i t's about my
content, about what I say, andhow I say, it's not about having
(13:35):
an accent, and it took me a longtime to be myself.
So ju st b e yourself, butembrace it, and tell yourself it
's o kay.
I'm Thai, I cannot change myaccent to have a Caucasian
accent or a European accent, andit comes to understanding
(13:55):
yourself.
Another thing for us as a femaleis that in the form of
presentation, right?
Present to executive management,practice it, practice, practice,
practice.
You fake it until you believeit.
Amanda (14:11):
I like that, a lot of preparation.
Cindy (14:14):
And then, you know, look again at the stool and the leg.
The second leg is about knowingyour stakeholder, right?
Know what is important to them,know what's in their head, know
what's in it for them.
And then you will contextualizethe content that matters to
them, right?
By knowing your stakeholder,especially upwards, you can have
(14:37):
a lot more confidence, moreeffective in how you do with the
conversation, how you do withthe interaction with the
project, how you even know howto speak up in the meeting or
dealing with the conflict.
So, don't underestimate again,the stakeholder element of how
you present yourself upwards.
Amanda (14:58):
So, with a stakeholder, do you feel like it's knowing
their personality traits?
Do you feel like it's knowingwhat is important to them or
what they value in the company?
What elements are you lookingfor, or advising that someone
that is, trying to speak upward,what are they looking for?
(15:19):
How can they better servethemselves in that position?
Cindy (15:24):
Yeah, that's a good point, Amanda.
And the key for me when it'scome to managing stakeholder
upwards, I always think aboutthe golden, the millionaire
question, the CEO question thatthey always ask one thing, how
do you grow a business?
That's in general, that's fortheir vision.
That's very important.
That's its priority.
(15:45):
How do you grow a business?
Keep that in your mind when youtalk to the executives, Right?
Because in the end, it's notabout what you do, it's about
what you do that matters to thebusiness growth.
What do you do that matters tothem, and benefits the company?
So again, yes, knowing yourstakeholders, know their
personality.
Is this person more of a de tailp erson?
(16:08):
So, you give a de tailed background.
If this person is a bottom line,like me, you go with the bottom
result first, and then you cascade d own to t he de tail.
Amanda (16:18):
And don't overload with the details, Right?
Cindy (16:20):
And that's actually linked to the last part of the
stool.
Knowing your storyline.
As a woman, especially, I seemyself in STEM, engineering
scientist, technical;we lovedetail.
We always love details and wethink the details are the
(16:41):
greatest thing in the world.
But when it comes to managingupwards, understand what's the
key message, and is that keymessage, is simple and clear?
It's not about being detail-oriented, and it's about being
clear.
And how do you convey that storyto your stakeholder?
Make it short and simple, andit's so hard, Amanda, very hard,
(17:04):
with backgrounds like ours, it'sso hard.
I c annot make it simple andclear.
It has to have a lot of detailand that if, again, if you
reflect to this three-leggedstool, it will help you more
effectively deal upwards.
I guarantee it because it'shappened to me.
(17:25):
If I can do it, everybody can doit.
Amanda (17:27):
I love that.
Okay, so self-awareness, knowingyour stakeholder, and then, is
it being clear, or what was thethird one?
Cindy (17:37):
So, it's knowing yourself, knowing your
stakeholder, and knowing yourstory line.
Amanda (17:44):
Your story line.
That's right.
Okay.
I wrote that right there, butthen I wrote really big, being
clear with your story line, sothat's amazing.
All right, let's see here.
So that's your foundation.
Whenever you're talking, whichone do you feel like is the most
important of the big fivereal-life lessons?
Cindy (18:06):
I think at the end of the day, if you ask me one thing,
it's all about how you reframewhen you deal with a challenge
or adversity.
That's going to stress yourself,I think it's very important that
you understand how your brainworks.
There's something that I want toadd to that piece, is the brand
(18:28):
theory, the energy flow whereattention goes, if you have
challenges in your life,difficult times in your life,
you think positive, you turnthings positive.
If you think negatively, thenyou get a negative result.
That's why the ability to beresilient and bounce back by
(18:51):
allowing yourself to be.
That gives you such a hugerebound quickly.
So your brain reframes thatenergy so quickly into the
positive side of things.
Again, the energy flows, whereattention goes.
Amanda (19:04):
I love that.
That's so good.
Okay, so I have a question aboutconflict.
How do you personally deal withconflict?
Is that something that you'velearned to just navigate?
I know a lot of my listeners,especially my women, are a
little bit more hesitant when itcomes to confrontational
situations.
Cindy (19:26):
Yeah.
I have to admit this issomething I deal with every day.
Personally, If you ask me if Ilike it, I don't think it's
about like it, or not, but it'sa part of your life, right?
If you grow in a leadershiprole, dealing with conflict is a
part of your leadership skillthat you have to be able to deal
with.
(19:47):
So, when I look at the conflict,first of all, maybe there's
still a bit more at stake thatsome of the leaders, especially
the female leaders, didn't take,it's that you didn't acknowledge
the situation when the conflicthappened.
The strong leader, first of all,has to acknowledge that.
These are things that are notgoing well, I feel some tension,
(20:09):
and I feel that we have toaddress a certain thing in order
for us, as a team to moveforward.
So, I think that's a huge partof it, from my point of view
when you deal with the conflict,the first thing you have to do
is acknowledge it.
Don't ignore it, and don'tunderestimate.
The more you ignore the tension,the more it goes up, high up,
high up, and then it blows up.
(20:31):
And that's not a good result.
So, I think, first of all,acknowledge that some tension,
some conflict is there.
And the second one and this isthe female thing, that can come
very naturally, be a goodlistener.
The conflict comes when we don'thave the same opinion or same
direction.
So, I think by having activelistening and be a good
(20:53):
listener, you can dig deeper,why it happened that way from a
different perspective.
And then with that, you canstart mapping it out.
What does the solution looklike?
You can start steering the shipfrom going in a different
direction, and start buildingthings and say, Hey, the
conflict comes because I seethis as a g ap.
(21:15):
Then, how can we address, as ateam, the solution-oriented, not
the problem- oriented, but againby that point when you are
already laid out, what is apotential r oadblock or gaps and
when you put on the table, Ithink when people see it then I
think it's easier to addresssome conflict o r t ension.
Amanda (21:32):
Yeah, absolutely.
Because that's really true.
Whenever you ignore it, or youjust push it aside, that it does
just blow up, and there becomeassumptions, and it gets bigger
than it probably ever shouldhave.
And so, I really liked thatfirst piece, acknowledge.
I'm not sure that I've everheard anybody say it like that,
(21:53):
but I do have one question,we've found some research
showing that women, in STEMcareers, have a particularly
hard time negotiating thesewaters.
Do you have any strategies foryoung professional women
starting out in a bigorganization?
Cindy (22:13):
Definitely.
So how I see this, let me startwith very basic fundamental
thing that I want to encouragethe younger generation is that I
see a lot of younger generation,they try to grow themselves very
fast and they, sometimes theyforget about understanding who
(22:34):
they are as a person.
They try to grow; I want to beCEO, I want to be a CMO, and I
want to be a President.
So, sometimes by jumping toofast, too quickly, without
understanding who we are, whatyou're good at.
Then, be a better self, ratherthan build yourself to be a
better someone else, and thatmost of the time, you lose that
(22:57):
foundation of who you are, andyou try to negotiate or try to
rebuild something u p onyourself, and you don't have
yourself yet.
And that's a style that's verysimple Amanda.
But I see I have a lot youngergeneration on my team in the
past as well, and that is forthe topic that I c oach them all
the time that to understandyourself an d do n't tr y t o be
(23:18):
better someone else that's notgo ing t o w ork for you, and
it's not sustainable.
Amanda (23:22):
Right?
Yeah.
Because I know a lot of myaudience and even my friends
that they're striving for moreand they want to be better, and
they're growing, and they'repushing, but then they're
frustrated and so, I've neverthought about that being a
better self, your better self.
And it goes back to like thefoundation too, doesn't it?
(23:44):
A lot of self-awareness?
Cindy (23:47):
Yeah.
But, that doesn't mean you cannot stretch yourself.
And I give my personal careeraspiration I share with my team,
my goals, I want to be chiefmarketing officer.
I want to be CMO one day, youdream big, you dream high, but I
dream of being a better self.
And I think that's the key.
I mean, you be a better self,you know yourself, you still
(24:08):
stretch yourself, but it comesfrom you.
It's the inside out energy, frominside out, and it's
sustainable.
Amanda (24:15):
I love that.
That's so good.
Oh my gosh.
Okay.
So is there anything else, Ihate to close, but is there
anything else that you want toadd to our conversation about
young professionals advancingtheir careers?
Cindy (24:30):
So, what I'd like to share, lastly, about how I see
or how we should see thebusiness today.
Even in Henkel, we have anacronym, VUCA, volatile,
uncertain, complex, andambiguous, which is a huge
driver.
When you look at the markettoday, globalization,
digitalization, competition inthe market, and social
(24:52):
responsibility.
And I think it's important forus to reflect on the situation
and understand the impact on theleadership in the 21st century.
Right?
What is it going to take to bean effective leader?
To me, when I look at myself inleadership, I consider myself to
be inclusive and an adaptiveleader, and in order for me to
(25:13):
do that, it's all about thesmall experiments, small
adjustments on your leadershipstyle, and remember, go back to
that big five real-life lessonsthat will definitely help you
grow.
Amanda (25:28):
I love that.
Thank you, Cindy.
So much.
So, where can people connectwith you?
Because I wish that we had moretime.
This has been amazing, and youhave given us so much, and so
many gold nuggets out of thisepisode.
Where is the best place toconnect with you?
Cindy (25:47):
Connect with me, and I love to connect with all of you
on LinkedIn.
If you look at me, CindyDeekitwong and again, if you can
help me achieve my goal, sharingyour story with me that you go
out, and you are trying to beyour better self, not a better
someone else, I would love tohear from you.
Amanda (26:04):
I love that.
Not a better someone else.
Thank you Cindy, so much forbeing on the show.
I really appreciate it.
Cindy (26:11):
Oh, thank you, Amanda.
It was such a pleasure to havethis discussion, so thank you
for having me.
Amanda (26:15):
Now, if you did find some valuable tips in this
podcast today, please take aminute to subscribe to the
podcast, because it will onlyget better from here and be sure
to share it, and tell all ofyour friends about it on
Facebook and Instagram and allyour social media sites.
I would truly appreciate thesocial media love.
Thanks again for listening, andI can't wait to connect with you
(26:36):
again.
Bye for now.
No matter how good you are as a high potential top
talent employee, you can not gothat far.
So, don't under-estimate at allthe power of collaboration.
You want to go far, and you wantto go fast, learn to collaborate
with others.
Amanda (00:21):
Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the raise up podcast.
I'm so glad you're here andexcited to introduce you to
Cindy Deekitwong.
She is a global head ofmarketing for 3D printing in the
adhesive technologies businessunit at Henkel.
She's a chemical engineer, hasan executive degree in supply
chain management from MIT, andis a master black belt in Six
(00:43):
Sigma.
During her 18 years as part ofthe Henkel organization, she has
lived all over the world,including Thailand and Japan,
but recently relocated back toHenkel's US headquarters in
Rocky Hill, Connecticut, to takeon the leadership role in global
marketing in the 3D printingdivision.
Cindy, thank you so much forcoming on the show.
(01:06):
I'm really excited to have youhere today.
Cindy (01:08):
Nice to meet you, Amanda, and thank you for having me
here.
Amanda (01:11):
Absolutely.
So, first I was doing someresearch and I saw that you had
lived in Japan for awhile.
Travis and I visited in 2016 andI loved it.
So, tell me a little bit aboutyour world travels.
Have you been all over?
Cindy (01:25):
Yeah, so, I started my career in Thailand at the time.
I'm a first generation of femaleengineers, so you can imagine at
the time I have a lot of energyand power to really go out of my
country, so, that I can comeback and help the people,
especially the female engineers,to grow.
So, that's why I reached out tothe headquarters at the time in
(01:48):
the US and applied for technicalservice engineering.
I got the job in 2003, and sincethen, I've been moving within
the country, across the country,international.
So, Japan, Thailand, within theUS, California, Boston, and then
back again in California.
So, yes, the key here is that myfamily is flexible.
(02:12):
They go with me, my husband andmy twins come with me along the
journey.
So, I'm very grateful for that.
Amanda (02:19):
That's awesome.
And it sounds like you've beenall over.
How are you liking Connecticut?
Cindy (02:25):
Well, I looked at the school system, which is great,
and I would say the food is alsonice.
Amanda (02:30):
Good.
That's awesome.
So, let's talk a little bitabout navigating corporate
culture.
Good and bad.
You're a chemical engineer bytraining, and my husband says
that chemical engineers make thebest CEOs because they're
trained to think about second,third, and even fourth-order
(02:50):
cause and effects of a processchange.
Do you think he's right?
Do you feel like he's right onthat one?
Cindy (02:57):
I may be a little bit bias, but with an engineering
background, I would say so, andthe key for me is that the
engineering background gives yousuch a sense of logical
foundation, to be logical, to beable to take risks, to
understand how to mitigate therisk in a more systematic way.
That's why when I take any newproject, anytime the engineering
(03:20):
sense of thing helping me getthrough all the challenges.
Amanda (03:23):
That's amazing.
And I love that you're afirst-generation engineer by the
way.
I bet your family is so proud ofyou.
Yeah.
Okay, so before the show, wewere talking just a little bit,
and I would love it if you wouldtell the audience a little bit
about your big five.
Would you be willing to do that?
Cindy (03:45):
Amanda, but before sharing with you all about my
big five, I call big fivereal-life lessons for me, the
motivation is that why I'm doingthis, to me, if after the
Podcast, and I can motivate orinspire one, just only one
person to go out and be a betterself, not better someone else, I
(04:06):
achieve my goal.
That's why I come up with thisbig five real-life lessons, and
the lesson throughout my careerthat I like to share.
Number one is about seekingfirst to understand, and
oftentimes we look at the personsitting opposite of you.
You just give it in the contextof what you think that person
(04:27):
is.
I myself, I grew up in a verymoderate family.
My mother and my father, werenurses.
My mom is an ER nurse, and mydad is the nurse after the
surgery taking care of thepatients.
So, I grew up in the hospital,and I see things that most of
the kids at my age, they don'tsee.
For example, the lady that cameout of the building with the
(04:49):
fake boob and people who design,right?
I mean, this is surgery here.
You didn't do this so and so,but guess what?
The lady had cancer, right?
So, sometimes it's alwaysimportant for you, especially
growing to be an authenticleader, to seek first to
understand what's behind that,there's always something behind.
Don't jump to the conclusion,and to spend time to at least to
(05:12):
understand the other side of thetable.
So that is my number one, thebig real-life lesson number two,
if you look at the picture ofthe rubber band, right?
The rubber band, to me,represents how you can challenge
yourself.
It's about knowing yourself,knowing your capability, your
(05:33):
capacity, and always challengesyourself.
Challenging your team, stretchout of your comfort zone, right?
I always talk to my youngercolleagues and say, do you feel
comfortable in your career rightnow?
If the answer is yes, that isnot a healthy sign.
Feeling uncomfortable,especially for the female
(05:56):
professional, is a very goodsign.
You are growing.
But at the same time when youtalk about a rubber band,
stretching yourself, one thingthat is very important is the
ability to bounce back.
How do you deal with adversitywhen things are not going right?
How are you recovering?
How do you bounce back fromthose challenges?
(06:17):
Right?
And one thing I always share,the trick, and the technique to
bounce back more effectively isall about acceptance.
Acknowledge yourself, do youfeel sad, mad, frustrated?
Let it be.
Allow yourself to be, and withthat, you can recover.
You can bounce back, be moreresilient because your brain is
(06:40):
reframing.
Your brain is accepting, and nowyou don't feel so good, and you
let yourself be, and then theability to recover is even
better.
So, that's my lesson number two,is to think about the rubber
band, stretch yourself outsideof your comfort zone.
But again, be aware, you don'twant to break the rubber.
(07:00):
You want to have the awarenessto be able to come back, and you
should.
Lesson number three.
Amanda (07:07):
Lesson number three.
I have one question.
You feel like you have stretcheda lot in your career?
Yes, at every stage?
Or do you think that there'sbeen times that it's been a
little bit easier, or do youthink that you are constantly
stretching?
Cindy (07:24):
I'm constantly challenging m yself.
But of course, you have yourdown-time, right?
When you have downtime, thatdoesn't mean that you don't
stress yourself.
I think that's allowing yourselfto be, and acknowledge that you
are tired today so, you sleepwell, and then tomorrow, that's
another day that you canchallenge it more.
Amanda (07:46):
Yeah.
That's awesome.
Okay.
What's lesson number three?
Cindy (07:50):
Lesson number three, this is my twins favorite.
So, I have nine-year-old,identical twins.
One of their hobbies, they loveLegos.
They s pend hours, and hours,and hours building with Legos.
And guess what?
Right at almost the end, theysmash the Legos.
(08:10):
E xactly, Amanda.
I'm saying, oh, don't do that.
It's given me such a huge momentof reflection, and do you know
why?
Because, they told me, mom,don't worry, I can make it
better, and faster next time.
As a n adult, I think we prettymuch have a fixed mindset.
We're building, we spend timedoing things, and we don't want
(08:31):
to break it.
We feel a certain security in this c ertain world th at w e live
in.
But look at my kids, that momenthas given me so much power to
really think about life, thatthere are also times to take ri
sks.
You lose 100 hundred percent ofthe sh ots y ou don't take.
(08:51):
So, I think for me, it's aboutLegos, it's about growth
mindset, and adults have a fixedmindset.
So, I actually say thank you tomy twins, that ga ve m e one of
the big five real-life lessons.
Amanda (09:06):
I love that.
I love that.
Build it faster the second time.
I've never thought about it thatway, to be honest.
My daughter tears them down veryquickly, but she does, she makes
them better each time andfaster.
Cindy (09:22):
They're not afraid to take risks, they just do it.
Amanda (09:27):
I don't know where we lose that when we become adults.
Somehow, we become morecalculated a little bit.
But I like that.
I wrote that one down, I'vewritten them all down actually.
So, I'm ready for your numberfour.
This is good.
Cindy (09:42):
I need your help.
So, the number four is about atrain.
I want to ask you a questionAmanda.
You know the French train and aGerman train, which train, this
is a controversial question,which train is going faster?
Amanda (10:00):
Oh, no.
I have no idea.
Cindy (10:03):
So I'll give you a hint.
So, Germany, they make a bettertrain.
The train technology in Germanyis very, very advanced.
The French, not so much.
But the answer to the train thatgoes faster between the two is
the French train.
And the reason behind that isthe French work with the tr ain
(10:27):
t rack company.
They create a collaborationbetween the train itself and the
train track.
The German train, they have atrain company, and a tr ain t
rack company,and they don'treally collaborate.
The message for me on my lessonnumber four is about the power
of collaboration.
(10:48):
As a high potential top talentemployee, you cannot go that
far.
So don't under-estimate at allthe power of collaboration.
You want to go far, and you wantto go fast, learn to collaborate
with others.
Amanda (11:04):
I love that.
Okay, so I know that I have alot of high achievers that are
listening, and so how have you,you're very much a higher
achiever, I believe it shows.
How have you learned to navigatethat collaboration with a team
where you are moving quicklybecause sometimes you feel like
(11:26):
you're going slower when youhave to collaborate.
So what is your advice aboutthat?
Cindy (11:33):
Yeah, to me, the collaboration is about give and
take.
Collaboration is alsounderstanding what is in it for
them, what is in it for me,right?
Because in the end, you don'twant to do just what is in it
for me.
You want to take something thatis in it for them as well.
So, that, to me, is a meaning ofcollaboration, right?
You're not doing it just byyourself.
(11:54):
You understand the big picture,the benefit to them, benefit to
you, benefit to theorganization.
And then, when you start tosteer the ship into that
direction, then thecollaboration comes in, because
people buy-in.
They know that if they followyou, t hey're g oing t o grow.
They're g oing t o get somethingout of this relationship as
well.
Amanda (12:13):
And so, there's an element of trust there too as
well, right?
That they know that you aregoing to have their back and
that you will work with theminstead of leaving them behind.
I love that.
I really love that.
Okay, I'm ready for number five.
Cindy (12:31):
Last but not least my big real-life lesson number five,
and especially with a youngerprofessional, and female
professional.
As a female, we are so, so goodat managing peers, managing
people on the team, managingdownwards.
We all struggle when we manageupwards.
(12:51):
The last lesson that I learnedand want to share is about the
foundation, how you presentyourself upwards.
Look at the picture of the tableor the stool with the three
legs, to me, that's afoundation.
Presenting yourself upwards,first of all, you know yourself,
(13:11):
you know who you are, youembrace who you are, and I give
you an example of myself.
I'm Thai, I have an accent, andI can step back, and not be so
confident i n what I say.
But I found out it's not aboutmy accent, i t's about my
content, about what I say, andhow I say, it's not about having
(13:35):
an accent, and it took me a longtime to be myself.
So ju st b e yourself, butembrace it, and tell yourself it
's o kay.
I'm Thai, I cannot change myaccent to have a Caucasian
accent or a European accent, andit comes to understanding
(13:55):
yourself.
Another thing for us as a femaleis that in the form of
presentation, right?
Present to executive management,practice it, practice, practice,
practice.
You fake it until you believeit.
Amanda (14:11):
I like that, a lot of preparation.
Cindy (14:14):
And then, you know, look again at the stool and the leg.
The second leg is about knowingyour stakeholder, right?
Know what is important to them,know what's in their head, know
what's in it for them.
And then you will contextualizethe content that matters to
them, right?
By knowing your stakeholder,especially upwards, you can have
(14:37):
a lot more confidence, moreeffective in how you do with the
conversation, how you do withthe interaction with the
project, how you even know howto speak up in the meeting or
dealing with the conflict.
So, don't underestimate again,the stakeholder element of how
you present yourself upwards.
Amanda (14:58):
So, with a stakeholder, do you feel like it's knowing
their personality traits?
Do you feel like it's knowingwhat is important to them or
what they value in the company?
What elements are you lookingfor, or advising that someone
that is, trying to speak upward,what are they looking for?
(15:19):
How can they better servethemselves in that position?
Cindy (15:24):
Yeah, that's a good point, Amanda.
And the key for me when it'scome to managing stakeholder
upwards, I always think aboutthe golden, the millionaire
question, the CEO question thatthey always ask one thing, how
do you grow a business?
That's in general, that's fortheir vision.
That's very important.
That's its priority.
(15:45):
How do you grow a business?
Keep that in your mind when youtalk to the executives, Right?
Because in the end, it's notabout what you do, it's about
what you do that matters to thebusiness growth.
What do you do that matters tothem, and benefits the company?
So again, yes, knowing yourstakeholders, know their
personality.
Is this person more of a de tailp erson?
(16:08):
So, you give a de tailed background.
If this person is a bottom line,like me, you go with the bottom
result first, and then you cascade d own to t he de tail.
Amanda (16:18):
And don't overload with the details, Right?
Cindy (16:20):
And that's actually linked to the last part of the
stool.
Knowing your storyline.
As a woman, especially, I seemyself in STEM, engineering
scientist, technical;we lovedetail.
We always love details and wethink the details are the
(16:41):
greatest thing in the world.
But when it comes to managingupwards, understand what's the
key message, and is that keymessage, is simple and clear?
It's not about being detail-oriented, and it's about being
clear.
And how do you convey that storyto your stakeholder?
Make it short and simple, andit's so hard, Amanda, very hard,
(17:04):
with backgrounds like ours, it'sso hard.
I c annot make it simple andclear.
It has to have a lot of detailand that if, again, if you
reflect to this three-leggedstool, it will help you more
effectively deal upwards.
I guarantee it because it'shappened to me.
(17:25):
If I can do it, everybody can doit.
Amanda (17:27):
I love that.
Okay, so self-awareness, knowingyour stakeholder, and then, is
it being clear, or what was thethird one?
Cindy (17:37):
So, it's knowing yourself, knowing your
stakeholder, and knowing yourstory line.
Amanda (17:44):
Your story line.
That's right.
Okay.
I wrote that right there, butthen I wrote really big, being
clear with your story line, sothat's amazing.
All right, let's see here.
So that's your foundation.
Whenever you're talking, whichone do you feel like is the most
important of the big fivereal-life lessons?
Cindy (18:06):
I think at the end of the day, if you ask me one thing,
it's all about how you reframewhen you deal with a challenge
or adversity.
That's going to stress yourself,I think it's very important that
you understand how your brainworks.
There's something that I want toadd to that piece, is the brand
(18:28):
theory, the energy flow whereattention goes, if you have
challenges in your life,difficult times in your life,
you think positive, you turnthings positive.
If you think negatively, thenyou get a negative result.
That's why the ability to beresilient and bounce back by
(18:51):
allowing yourself to be.
That gives you such a hugerebound quickly.
So your brain reframes thatenergy so quickly into the
positive side of things.
Again, the energy flows, whereattention goes.
Amanda (19:04):
I love that.
That's so good.
Okay, so I have a question aboutconflict.
How do you personally deal withconflict?
Is that something that you'velearned to just navigate?
I know a lot of my listeners,especially my women, are a
little bit more hesitant when itcomes to confrontational
situations.
Cindy (19:26):
Yeah.
I have to admit this issomething I deal with every day.
Personally, If you ask me if Ilike it, I don't think it's
about like it, or not, but it'sa part of your life, right?
If you grow in a leadershiprole, dealing with conflict is a
part of your leadership skillthat you have to be able to deal
with.
(19:47):
So, when I look at the conflict,first of all, maybe there's
still a bit more at stake thatsome of the leaders, especially
the female leaders, didn't take,it's that you didn't acknowledge
the situation when the conflicthappened.
The strong leader, first of all,has to acknowledge that.
These are things that are notgoing well, I feel some tension,
(20:09):
and I feel that we have toaddress a certain thing in order
for us, as a team to moveforward.
So, I think that's a huge partof it, from my point of view
when you deal with the conflict,the first thing you have to do
is acknowledge it.
Don't ignore it, and don'tunderestimate.
The more you ignore the tension,the more it goes up, high up,
high up, and then it blows up.
(20:31):
And that's not a good result.
So, I think, first of all,acknowledge that some tension,
some conflict is there.
And the second one and this isthe female thing, that can come
very naturally, be a goodlistener.
The conflict comes when we don'thave the same opinion or same
direction.
So, I think by having activelistening and be a good
(20:53):
listener, you can dig deeper,why it happened that way from a
different perspective.
And then with that, you canstart mapping it out.
What does the solution looklike?
You can start steering the shipfrom going in a different
direction, and start buildingthings and say, Hey, the
conflict comes because I seethis as a g ap.
(21:15):
Then, how can we address, as ateam, the solution-oriented, not
the problem- oriented, but againby that point when you are
already laid out, what is apotential r oadblock or gaps and
when you put on the table, Ithink when people see it then I
think it's easier to addresssome conflict o r t ension.
Amanda (21:32):
Yeah, absolutely.
Because that's really true.
Whenever you ignore it, or youjust push it aside, that it does
just blow up, and there becomeassumptions, and it gets bigger
than it probably ever shouldhave.
And so, I really liked thatfirst piece, acknowledge.
I'm not sure that I've everheard anybody say it like that,
(21:53):
but I do have one question,we've found some research
showing that women, in STEMcareers, have a particularly
hard time negotiating thesewaters.
Do you have any strategies foryoung professional women
starting out in a bigorganization?
Cindy (22:13):
Definitely.
So how I see this, let me startwith very basic fundamental
thing that I want to encouragethe younger generation is that I
see a lot of younger generation,they try to grow themselves very
fast and they, sometimes theyforget about understanding who
(22:34):
they are as a person.
They try to grow; I want to beCEO, I want to be a CMO, and I
want to be a President.
So, sometimes by jumping toofast, too quickly, without
understanding who we are, whatyou're good at.
Then, be a better self, ratherthan build yourself to be a
better someone else, and thatmost of the time, you lose that
(22:57):
foundation of who you are, andyou try to negotiate or try to
rebuild something u p onyourself, and you don't have
yourself yet.
And that's a style that's verysimple Amanda.
But I see I have a lot youngergeneration on my team in the
past as well, and that is forthe topic that I c oach them all
the time that to understandyourself an d do n't tr y t o be
(23:18):
better someone else that's notgo ing t o w ork for you, and
it's not sustainable.
Amanda (23:22):
Right?
Yeah.
Because I know a lot of myaudience and even my friends
that they're striving for moreand they want to be better, and
they're growing, and they'repushing, but then they're
frustrated and so, I've neverthought about that being a
better self, your better self.
And it goes back to like thefoundation too, doesn't it?
(23:44):
A lot of self-awareness?
Cindy (23:47):
Yeah.
But, that doesn't mean you cannot stretch yourself.
And I give my personal careeraspiration I share with my team,
my goals, I want to be chiefmarketing officer.
I want to be CMO one day, youdream big, you dream high, but I
dream of being a better self.
And I think that's the key.
I mean, you be a better self,you know yourself, you still
(24:08):
stretch yourself, but it comesfrom you.
It's the inside out energy, frominside out, and it's
sustainable.
Amanda (24:15):
I love that.
That's so good.
Oh my gosh.
Okay.
So is there anything else, Ihate to close, but is there
anything else that you want toadd to our conversation about
young professionals advancingtheir careers?
Cindy (24:30):
So, what I'd like to share, lastly, about how I see
or how we should see thebusiness today.
Even in Henkel, we have anacronym, VUCA, volatile,
uncertain, complex, andambiguous, which is a huge
driver.
When you look at the markettoday, globalization,
digitalization, competition inthe market, and social
(24:52):
responsibility.
And I think it's important forus to reflect on the situation
and understand the impact on theleadership in the 21st century.
Right?
What is it going to take to bean effective leader?
To me, when I look at myself inleadership, I consider myself to
be inclusive and an adaptiveleader, and in order for me to
(25:13):
do that, it's all about thesmall experiments, small
adjustments on your leadershipstyle, and remember, go back to
that big five real-life lessonsthat will definitely help you
grow.
Amanda (25:28):
I love that.
Thank you, Cindy.
So much.
So, where can people connectwith you?
Because I wish that we had moretime.
This has been amazing, and youhave given us so much, and so
many gold nuggets out of thisepisode.
Where is the best place toconnect with you?
Cindy (25:47):
Connect with me, and I love to connect with all of you
on LinkedIn.
If you look at me, CindyDeekitwong and again, if you can
help me achieve my goal, sharingyour story with me that you go
out, and you are trying to beyour better self, not a better
someone else, I would love tohear from you.
Amanda (26:04):
I love that.
Not a better someone else.
Thank you Cindy, so much forbeing on the show.
I really appreciate it.
Cindy (26:11):
Oh, thank you, Amanda.
It was such a pleasure to havethis discussion, so thank you
for having me.
Amanda (26:15):
Now, if you did find some valuable tips in this
podcast today, please take aminute to subscribe to the
podcast, because it will onlyget better from here and be sure
to share it, and tell all ofyour friends about it on
Facebook and Instagram and allyour social media sites.
I would truly appreciate thesocial media love.
Thanks again for listening, andI can't wait to connect with you
(26:36):
again.
Bye for now.
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