May 14, 2020 • 42 mins
Known around here as the Doughnut King, my new friend, Kurt shares the best Krispy Kreme doughnut hack ever, and how curiosity, energy, and attitude get you noticed. Because let's be honest, are you coming at your job with big desire? Are you looking at yourself as a Brand? Are you developing trust with your team? Kurt brings the heat on how regular, honest communication can influence how you ask for a raise. From working three random jobs to the President of WKS Krispy Kreme, he gives us his best advice about being the best in the business and how to ask for a raise.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Kurt (00:01):
Because I always tell people, are you a farmer, or
not?
Farmers are aware of what toplant, where to plant it, when
to plant it, and when toharvest, and sometimes you want
to harvest that raise now, butit's the wrong time.
The season is not right.
The company is not in a goodposition.
(00:22):
The sun is not shining, and it'sraining like cats and dogs, and
you're in the middle of a stormasking for something, and it's
not going to happen, so saveyour bullets and wait until the
right moment.
When the company has a goodfinancial period, and you've
achieved some new goals,constantly be doing that through
thick and thin, and thatdisciplined approach, and
(00:43):
loyalty really matters.
Amanda (00:44):
Welcome.
Welcome to the number onepodcast that teaches people how
to get paid what they're worth.
I'm your host and resonate humanbehavior nerd, Amanda Lefever.
I'm super excited about today'sguest and you should be to, Kurt
(01:04):
Kuyper is the president of WKSKrispy Kreme.
Yes, I said Krispy Kremefriends.
This man is deliveringextraordinary doughnut
experiences and glaze tastinessto people all over Northern
California, Arizona, New Mexico,Colorado, Nevada, Utah, Idaho
and Wisconsin.
He's a long-time successful foodindustry executive.
(01:27):
And I read that Kurt lovesfishing, body surfing, snow
skiing, internationalgeopolitical and economic
strategy.
What?
Giving back is part of his DNA.
And he currently serves as aboard member for Hoby Arizona.
Is that right?
Is that how you say it?
Awesome.
It's a nonprofit youthleadership foundation.
(01:50):
Kurt Kuyper, welcome to theshow.
I am so glad that you are here.
Kurt (01:55):
Thank you, Amanda.
I'm delighted.
Thank you.
Amanda (01:56):
Yeah, it's going to be a great show.
And first, I have to ask becauseI love doughnuts and I am
definitely your target market.
So how do doughnuts, and thislove of geopolitical and
economic strategy mix, reallyquick?
Could you just tell me like howdo those loves overlap?
Kurt (02:17):
That's a great question.
I don't even know how to answerthat question.
I think the people around theworld love doughnuts and,
everybody's got a sweet tooth nomatter where you're from.
Some are less so, and some aremore so, but it's been
interesting how the simple,humble little doughnut Krispy
Kreme represents has allowed meto connect with people in
(02:38):
different countries.
And I've always been a studentof international politics that
was a part of my undergraduatestudies.
And so, I think that, I justfollowed my passions and was
lucky enough to find out what Ididn't want to do in life.
And I found Krispy Kreme, andrecognized the incredible, s
imple pleasure t hat it was, butalso what it meant to people at
(02:59):
an emotional level.
It's been an extremely rewardingexperience to be able to be part
of it over the years.
Amanda (03:07):
Yeah.
So what is your favoritedoughnut?
Kurt (03:11):
You know, I love a hot, sour cream cake doughnut.
Yeah.
There's something about it.
The regular glaze, I mean ouroriginal glaze doughnut is the
hero of the show, and it's whathas paid my salary for many,
many years.
But the hot, sour cream, by theway, you can take it home,
(03:32):
microwave it for seven seconds.
A little vanilla ice cream, anda nice caramel sauce.
Amanda (03:37):
I have never heard of a hot, sour cream.
I didn't even know that existed.
Kurt (03:43):
It's kind of like a buttermilk doughnut, but ours
has a unique flavor that I don'tthink you can get anywhere else.
Amanda (03:46):
That sounds awesome.
Okay.
So, now I'll stop talking aboutdoughnuts because I love them.
But I also want to ask, like,let's talk about, of course,
getting a raise in the food andbeverage industry.
I read an article in"RestaurantToday" that said we expect to
reward good workers with meritraises as appropriate.
(04:08):
But your line employee expects asort of longevity bonus simply
for putting this time in.
What would you say to peoplelooking to have this once a year
conversation about their hourlyrate?
Kurt (04:21):
Sure.
Well, I'd say it, you don't haveto wait.
You know, I like to tell peoplethat at the end of the day
performance trumps tenure, orany regularly scheduled
meetings.
So, if you have the ability tosit down with anyone in your
organization to learn about howdo you grow your worth, and
value, slash career, do it.
(04:43):
Don't be shy.
Ask people; people love to sharetheir advice, which is one of
the reasons I love yourinvitation to talk today.
You know, there have been a lotof lessons learned over the
years, and not anythingnecessarily that I had an
epiphany about but have theluxury of spending time with
people that taught me, and it'sjust nice to be able to pass it
along.
I think organizations lovedoers, and the key with that is,
(05:07):
I look for a few things inpeople, I look for those who are
hungry, because I can't teachit.
The fire in the belly that manypeople talk about,
intellectually curious.
They are the people that like tofigure out how to make things
better.
They want to understand how abusiness works, the language of
business, and they arethoughtful.
(05:28):
They're action oriented peoplewho really don't mind saying,
hi, my name is so and so, I'dlove to sit down with you for
just a few minutes when you havetime, what's the best day?
And I oftentimes will make timefor those people.
They'll come out of the blue,and they can be an employee in a
store.
And it's just nice to know thatsomeone is genuinely interested
(05:49):
and they're not looking for theimmediate raise.
They're looking for information,which then allows them to get
where they want to go.
And I'm happy to help them alongthe way.
And, even if it doesn't meanthey stay with our organization,
I tell them all the time, thatcandor level we've established
in the relationship is critical,because if I'm able to help you,
ultimately you're going to turnaround and say to someone else,
(06:12):
that's a great place to work.
Those people care about you asan individual.
But in the meantime, whileyou're still with us, you then
understand why you're doing whatyou're doing, so you can put
pennies in the bank to go so youcan go achieve your dream, and
we'll cheer you on to victory.
And I mean, 50% of the timepeople ended up staying with us
because they realized that it'snot necessarily greener, and
(06:35):
they can explore their ideas,and their desires openly without
feeling like we're thinking lessof them because there are flight
risks.
It's not that way at all.
So, I think that you know,again, performance, trumps
tenure and asking for anopportunity to learn how to make
more, it's not only sensible,it's essential.
(06:56):
And those who wait are reallyfooling themselves.
They need to toot their own hornat some point.
And, y ou know, I tell peopleall the time, at least in our
business for example, at a crewlevel, you can make doughnuts,
you can decorate doughnuts, andyou can sell doughnuts.
Oftentimes people have oneposition, but they will wait for
(07:18):
someone to notice them.
Instead of saying, Hey, h ow i smy product looking?
How, am I doing, and what, whencan I learn something else so I
can add value?
Bing, Bing, Bing, light goes offand the manager then says, b ut
let's sit down.
I'll calendar you for sometraining i n this other
department.
And that's how you proactivelygo about getting on the agenda.
(07:39):
Y ou got to get on someone'sagenda on their calendar, a nd
that's how you do it.
And t hen, once you startlearning skills, different
skills, you're g oing t o earnmore.
And once you become what I calla triple threat in our business,
y ou l earn all thosedepartments.
You then have punched the ticketinto the entry-level training
program for our managementprogram.
And it's no different, once yougo up, you learn HR skills, you
learn what you know how tonegotiate, y ou l earn just
(08:02):
business law, etcetera, andeventually you're ready to take
t he leap, and do cross-departmental or multi-unit type
roles.
Amanda (08:10):
Interesting.
Okay.
So, typically, when somebodyapproaches their manager, I love
that tactful way of saying, whencan I learn something else to
add value?
Is that something that peopleare asking you to whenever
you're sitting down withemployees,and they're hoping to
kind of like move up the laddersomehow?
Kurt (08:29):
Yup.
I think some people come at itwith a bigger desire.
So, they'll say, how do I getyour job?
And I'll say, that's a greatquestion.
It's multilayered and it takesmany years, and the opportunity
is there.
Everyone that's smart is lookingfor someone to take their job.
I'm looking at grooming peopleall the time to take over the
(08:49):
next level position and havingredundancy throughout the
organization.
That's our lifeblood and ourability to sustain in case
someone, God forbid, gets hit bya bus, gets sick, is out for
multiple months for whateverreason, and we need to be able
to continue without a buck.
That's the signal that you havea smooth-running machine.
And that's the true salute toanybody who runs a store or a
(09:12):
shift, is that when you're gone,the place operates as well or
better without you.
So, the depth of training you'vedone for your people.
So, I always tell them, look,focus on building a legacy for
yourself.
Build a reputation.
I often tell people, think ofyourself, and this is not news,
some book I read at some point,but think of yourself as a
business entity.
Think of yourself as a brand,and if you think of Gillette,
(09:35):
what are they known for?
What are the top three thingsthat they're known for?
Product marketing, etcetera,great packaging innovation over
the years of how toincrementally price things.
What are you known for as anindividual?
And if you're not sure, askpeople around you.
Ask the people that have workedwith you, and ask them to be
completely candid with you,good, bad, or ugly.
(09:55):
And when you find out, ask themwhat are the top three words
that you think of when you thinkof me as a business partner?
And that will help you see ifyou have a lack of consistency
in how people perceive you.
And then, you have to startmanaging that.
You have to start managingthrough your behaviors, and your
(10:16):
own time, and manage your owntime effectively.
There's the old saying at Hoby,we talk a lot about it, which is
you're writing this foundation,and it talks about leadership of
self, leadership of others andleadership in community.
And you can start with yourselfif you don't have an organized
routine in your day to tacklethe basics and put yourself in
the right frame of mind.
(10:37):
You can easily get diluted intothinking that because you've
been somewhere long enough, youdeserve more money, and that's
not the case.
Amanda (10:46):
Yeah.
You had mentioned that peoplewill come to you and say, I
haven't had a raise for awhile,and then you will ask them when
was the last raise?
What are the other questions?
Because I know that I personallydid this whenever I was working
in the restaurant business, Iwent to my boss, and I said,
it's been a really long time andso and so is making more money
(11:07):
than me, and I work harder thanshe does.
And I know now that I probablyshouldn't have approached my
boss like that.
But it was a learningexperience.
So, what would you say tosomeone that is maybe in the
same boat?
Kurt (11:22):
I don't think what you said is wrong at all.
In fact, I think when peoplecome to me and say that it tells
me that it's an opportunity tohelp them understand how the
business works, and how how theyget perceived.
And part of it too is a bigword, it's patience.
This happens often where we seepeople who come in, they're
making more than someone else,and it can be either that they
(11:43):
negotiated a better deal.
It could be that the marketconditions were different when
they struck the deal with thecompany.
They need to be bringingsomething to the table that
you're not aware of.
But people oftentimes cure asalary or a pay rate and think,
oh my gosh, why is that personmaking so much more money?
And I think it's perfectly fineto say, your boss, look, I'm
going to understand whathappened here.
How, how are they getting this?
(12:04):
And I'm not.
I've got more value.
Just help educate me.
And most of the time I'll tellpeople, look, you know what?
In some cases, you're right.
This was a miss on our part.
We need to sit down with you.
Thank you for bringing it to myattention.
Other times it's, I tell people,look, give them a year or two.
You've got to see how any, ifyou're not willing to be
patient, and I mean that soundslike a long time for some
(12:25):
people, and I tell them what youstruck a deal with the company
and you should be happy with therate that you struck.
If you're not, you have achoice.
You can either leave and try togo get more money somewhere
else, or you can stay and provethat you can be patient and earn
value and create a legacy foryourself that makes it
absolutely glaringly clear thatwe need to pay you more because
(12:46):
you are o f such value.
Meanwhile, the person that wasmaking more money than you
either have performed in astellar way and impressed you.
So, you go, ah, now I know w hythat person was brought in and
paid more than me, or they willbe gone.
And you'll be like, w ell, theorganization really realized
that that person wasn't thatgood.
(13:08):
So, it just takes time.
But organizations sometimes areslower to the table than we'd
like to be.
But this is the value of havingregular conversations and
understanding the pulse of notonly the people that you work
for, but the people you workwith, and when that is fluid and
(13:28):
constant, i t's amazing what canhappen.
The stifling part of all theseraise issues comes about from a
lack of communication, like 99%of the problems wi th t he
business.
Amanda (13:40):
Do you think it's the manager and the employees lack
of communication, or do youthink it's like a top-down type
of communication or, what do youthink it is,?
Kurt (13:52):
Yeah, that's a great question.
I think it's both ways.
I think obviously, it has tostart from the leadership.
The tone, and the culture of thecompany, and fostering that kind
of candor.
I oftentimes tell people look,trust is a delicate thing, so to
the extent we can avoid havingto trust one another is really
important.
What I prefer to have is asystem in place that assures
(14:13):
that we have certain things wehave to abide by, the core
values that guide us, oursystems in the store for cash
deposits, etcetera.
So there's no finger pointing,but more importantly, that
there's enough one-on-onediscussions happening regularly
that are documented so that Iunderstand where you're coming
from, and vice versa, and it'sclear, and there isn't a
(14:33):
lingering curiosity.
The person's blind when they'redriving home, boy, I wonder,
should I have said this, and youknow, if they're not comfortable
picking up the phone and saying,you know, I forgot to ask you
this question, that's a problem.
There has to be a candor andopenness that the managers or
people in general who say, I gotthis, I got it, I got it.
(14:56):
I don't need any help.
Those are the ones I've worriedabout because being vulnerable
is a critical element of beingpart of a team.
Because when people know you'rewilling to say, you know what, I
don't know how to do this or Ineed your help and I can't do
this, without you.
The world opens up.
People want to help each other.
I think that that's a naturalhuman tendency.
You want to help, but if youdon't have regular
(15:19):
communication, and you justaren't fostering this kinds of
business relationships, itbuilds what I call these Chinese
walls.
I mentioned that phrase earlierw ith you privately, but you
know, people can assume thatthings are happening behind the
scenes that aren't evenhappening, or they can assume
too much that, w ell, I'm goingto have my r aise.
They're going to notice me.
(15:39):
My father told me at one pointin time, you know, look, you
have to punch your o wn ticket.
The conductor may not c ome b ya nd ask for your ticket on the
train.
He grew up in the train d ay.
He said, it's not because theconductor's a bad person.
It's just that they don't have asystem.
So, we all have to have systems,whether you're a manager or
(16:01):
you're an employee that youknow, I call them mental i
slands on the calendar, you needto put something out there on a
calendar.
T hen, in two months I'm goingto go, I'm going to achieve X,
Y, and Z.
I'm not going to go to my bossand say, Hey, I'm not sure you
know this, but I did do what wetalked about.
I f ollowed through, I'velearned these skills and I hope
you appreciate the fact that Iam doing what we talked about.
(16:25):
I love that, because I think inthe pace, we all move,
oftentimes those kinds offollow-through actions get
missed.
But you need to be able to in apolite way, show people that
you, you set goals for yourself,you followed through on maybe
just a passing conversation tohave with your boss or someone
from outside of the storeenvironment who you happen to
(16:46):
talk to, you know, behind thecounter so to speak.
But when people know you reallydo listen and do follow through,
it makes a huge impact.
They remember, I remember thatperson at that store.
Wow, they're an up and comer andit's just little things like
that, kind of you dropping apebble, and eventually, people
remember.
And if they see that over timethat you're consistently
(17:07):
fostering, managing up, andsideways, they see you as a
collaborative spirit versussomeone who's just out for
themselves.
Amanda (17:14):
I could see that.
I really liked, punch your ownticket.
So, are you doing, do you feellike people have to do this in
like a tactful way?
Like you're not bragging or, areyou bragging?
How are you approaching theseconversations?
Kurt (17:31):
I think it's one of the other things we look for is
humility, right?
So, boastfulness is reallyunattractive.
What I think is very attractive,is someone who's self-assured,
someone who knows that I havelearned, we've talked oftentimes
in terms of knowledge, will, andability, your organization's
responsibility is to give youthe knowledge.
But ultimately, it's up to theindividual to demonstrate
(17:52):
through their own behaviors thatthey have the will and the
ability to do a particular job.
Some people burn out, and theylose the will, they're very
good, but they've lost it.
The organization asks you to askitself, what have we not done?
So, this person's willpower isstill strong.
That's one question.
The other side of it could be,that this person has a lot of
(18:13):
desire, and a lot of passion,but they're just not suited for
this role.
Maybe they're not a frontcounter retail salesperson but
can be very effective somewhereelse.
Maybe even in the organization,maybe they would be excellent in
accounting, helping us becausethey're very detail-oriented but
don't want to deal with thecustomers that much.
And so, as you learn who youare, you have to be self-aware,
(18:35):
and be able to articulate thatto whoever you're working for or
with, and say, look, you know,I'm more of this kind of person,
and I'm passionate about this.
How can I leverage that tendencyand my skillset?
And that just opens up floodgates of information, because
oftentimes, I love for people togrow up in the field and run
(18:55):
businesses really well, and allof a sudden they're 25 years old
and they're running a 2 to 3million dollar business.
And I say, you know, prettyamazing, right?
So, if you want to grow yourskillsets and manage more
through people across otherunits, let's talk about that.
But maybe, that may or may notinterest you.
Maybe, you'd be more interestedin moving to our support center
and helping in some sort ofadministrative support way,
(19:17):
because some people really wantto learn marketing.
They want a Monday throughFriday job versus a seven day a
week, 24- hour restaurant, crazykind world, which I love.
So, everybody has to know whatkind of life they want, and ask
for that.
You know, I've said this before,but I think it's finding out
what you don't want to do is 90%of the battle.
(19:39):
So, you've got to exposeyourself to different things.
That's not to say job-hopping isideal, right?
Because you can get exposed todifferent pursuits within an
organization.
The best people, who I see thathave just that curiosity we
talked about earlier or thathunger, I'll say, have you ever
thought about coming to theoffice for a day and spend a day
(20:01):
in accounts receivable?
Because it may be that, Hey,they don't have an appreciation
for how difficult that job is.
And then they go there, and theyrealize my job is not as hard as
I thought.
I liked what I'm doing overthere.
They're doing a lot, and theyhave a lot of pressure, and it
just keeps coming.
(20:21):
The bills keep coming in, youknow.
So, I think the more we actuallycross- pollinate, that way
people get exposed to what theystart comparing what they really
do, and do not like to do.
And they also build healthyrespect for what other people do
in an organization.
A lot of people want to go outand be an entrepreneur and make
a lot of money and all thosestandards, the starry- eyed
child kind of syndrome, right?
(20:42):
At the end of the day, if you'veever been an entrepreneur and
been out on your own, like Ihave, you understand the value
of being part of a biggerorganization.
You have a healthy respect foreach of the roles in the
organization, and you understandthe value they add, and how much
time they can free up for you.
So, you're not having to be thepayroll, you're not having to X,
Y, and Z, and deal with theworker's compensation, all these
(21:03):
types of issues.
So, I think it's aboutsurrounding yourself with the
right people.
And for anybody who's trying tomanage up in their career, need
to look at who they arenaturally, and then make sure
that over time they exposethemselves to people who balance
them.
So, if you're naturally anEnergizer bunny, I call them
(21:24):
that, they have to just go, go,go rah, rah, rah cheerleader
mentality.
Amanda (21:30):
I know someone like that!
Kurt (21:30):
I do too.
Or they can be the, what I'dcall the organized taskmaster.
And that doesn't mean that it'sbad in a bad way.
It means that they get thingsdone.
They're rigorous, they're detailoriented.
They're a driver, but they'renot the person that always
should be conducting the HRdiscussions, the kind of person
(21:51):
that you need, someone else whohas the softer side of Sears
approach to be able to navigate,artfully, difficult situations
in a way that makes both partiesfeel heard.
And oftentimes some people willjust talk over others.
They may not be a great listeneror an active listener.
And so, you have to figure out,who are you?
(22:12):
Are you not a good listener?
How do you get better at it?
And who do I need to go spendtime with so I can learn how to
be better?
You know, you'll pick up things.
I think one of your otherinterviewees mentioned this
idea, which is that you, you'reputting little stones in a wall
even though you don't remember,you don't realize it throughout
your career and you'll dothings, reach out and do some
fun, different things becauseyou'll be amazed how they end up
(22:35):
benefiting you in the long run.
From my own experience, Iremember taking an improv class
in Hollywood years ago when Igraduated college.
And had three different jobs totry and make ends meet.
One was selling shoes, one wasdoing the books for a talent
agency, and the other waswaiting tables down in Malibu,
and I just by chance happened tohear about this class.
(22:57):
So, I said, what the heck, I'mgoing to go try this-best thing
I did at that age.
In retrospect, I didn't realizeit until 20 years later, but it
got me comfortable talking toaudiences and being comfortable
with silence and acknowledgingthe value that someone else
brings to the table.
Little things that you justdon't realize when you're in a
(23:18):
simple improv class, whowould've thunk?
Amanda (23:21):
Not me, that's crazy.
So, did you do it for publicspeaking or did you do it just
because it sounded like cool andfun?
Kurt (23:28):
It was a mixture of both.
I was trying to realize or getout of being shy, if you will,
which was natural, I wasn't anintrovert by any stretch, but by
the same token, I admired peoplewho could get up and just improv
, improvise and talkextemporaneously about any topic
(23:49):
and just kind of go with it, andbe engaging.
To me, that was something that Ididn't think I was, and I wanted
to learn how to do it.
I don't know that I've evergotten there, but I am
constantly trying to learn howto connect with people.
Amanda (24:04):
Yeah.
No, I think you do a great job.
If I say so myself.
So, I have one question.
How does someone go from, didyou say selling shoes, or
working on shoes, working inrestaurants and doing books for
a talent agency?
How does someone go from thosethings to being a president of a
company?
Kurt (24:16):
I'm selling shoes at the Broadway, Fox Hills mall.
Sure.
Well, again, I tried some thingsthat I didn't have say, the best
luck with falling into the rightsituation where I had either the
(24:38):
great mentor at my feet or upongraduation from college.
I also had a little bit of awild hair I think admittedly at
that time in life.
And I wanted to try a few newthings, but I quickly realized
doing three jobs and workingthose crazy hours that that was
not a sensible life.
And so I ended up falling backon a role with Atlantic
Richfield oil company indowntown Los Angeles and working
(24:59):
in their interstate taxationdepartment for legal affairs.
And wow, you figure they'llfigure that out.
That it was, I wanted to find acompany that had a wild cat kind
of mentality, and the oilbusiness does have that, but
they're also a huge business,and they were very diversified.
And I just happened to fall intothat through a friend.
(25:19):
I said, look, where would yougo?
And they recommended this.
And, it turned out to befantastic because the big
company had immediate streetcredibility, when I ended up
talking to people and just byfate, and this was really what
set me on the path to be in therestaurant business with, I'll
be as brief as I can.
I happened to go to a sponsoredfunction that Arco had, and it
(25:40):
was Henry Kissinger who wasspeaking.
And I happened to sit in thisroom and right next to me an
older gentleman sat down, westarted talking, he said, what
are you doing?
I told him,;I'm working in theinterstate taxation department.
How are you liking that?
I said, I'm bored.
I like the work, but it'srepetitive, and it's not what I
thought it was going to be.
And he said, what would you liketo do?
(26:00):
And I said, well, I'm not sureyet, but I'm trying to turn over
the stones and figure out whereto go.
And I think I would be good inmarketing and maybe asset
management, something alongthose lines.
And he said, well, I happen tobe the head of real estate for
Atlantic Richfield.
And yet again, quirk of fate.
But we got into thisconversation.
(26:20):
He said, you know, I really likeyou, but I can't hire you.
You can't get in my departmentbecause you don't have an MBA.
And he said, if you go get one,I'd love to talk to you.
And I said, well, I will go getone.
But in the meantime, is theresome people that you might
introduce me to so I can getexposed to the different avenues
within the real estate world?
Because I know a little bitabout marketing and a little
bit, you know.
And so, he did.
(26:41):
He introduced me to people allthrough Los Angeles.
And I was able to get meetingswith people I would never have
been able to get meetings with,purely because it was an
exploratory discussion that hehad arranged.
And that, that was a greatlesson for me, is you can help
introduce people.
It's up to them to make theirway.
And it was a great example ofleadership.
And when I think about himoften, Ben Kubler is his name.
(27:03):
He, God rest him, but he was agreat man because he helped
someone.
He listened, he listened, andI've always remembered that.
But through that, I ended upworking for a brokerage company
in Orange County that ended upgetting acquired by a bank and
then got apart by bank ofAmerica and they decided to
invest.
But meantime, I had developedrelationships with the
(27:24):
university of California,Irvine, and ended up working for
them in real estate while goingand getting my MBA and got
exposed to differentrestauranteurs who were looking
for space.
I was helping them securerestaurants in Pasadena,
etcetera.
That may is the pivotablemoment.
When I realized I liked therestaurant business, I'm seeing
(27:44):
these people who are chefs,owners, and they're wearing
multiple hats.
It's exciting.
And I ended up working for PizzaHut doing consulting work, real
estate, and eventuallyleveraging that to work with
Taco Bell and then to KrispyKreme and onward, and onward.
But I graduated with an MBA,decided I'm going to learn this
business from the ground up.
And I took a job as an assistantmanager with Taco Bell, with an
(28:06):
MBA.
Amanda (28:07):
Wow, just in a store, like managing people?
Slinging tacos?
Kurt (28:11):
And it was really interesting because they said,
you know, where do you want tolive?
I said, North Carolina, look atme.
I was living in Irvine at thetime.
Why North Carolina?
And I said, well for me it'sgoing to be near the beaches.
It's going to be near themountains.
I can fish, I can go horsebackriding, I can do all the things
I love doing.
And they said, okay, sure.
So, they hooked me up with somepeople in North Carolina and we
(28:33):
ended up getting sold off to afranchisee.
But that was also the benefit ofworking for the company and then
seeing the franchise world.
So, that's where my careerreally diverged.
And you know, I had a choiceeither to stay with the company
and hunker down and feel safeand go back to Irvine, or stay
and go with the unknown in NorthCarolina with a new company that
bought us out.
(28:53):
And decided to go with theunknown, because I was happy
where I was living, and I likedit by hook or by crook.
I ended up coming back westbecause that's where the base of
my knowledge was, which isanother thing for people to
realize is you know where youchoose to go to work and who you
go to work for can oftentimeshelp determine the trajectory or
the ultimate location you endedup getting based in the higher
(29:16):
up you go, the more flexibilityyou probably gained to being
able to take jobs in differentlocales.
But you also have more freedom,I think financially just to make
those choices.
So, to the extent that you justare self-aware, you know where
you want to go, you know thetypes of environments where
you'd be happy, and you'rethoughtful about it.
You know, it's not that you fallforward gracefully.
(29:39):
You have to have a plan.
You have to say, look, these arethe things I like doing.
This is what I'm good at.
I call it talent.
Some people fight the trend orfight the current, and they go,
I have to learn those thingsthat are hard for me.
No.
Be aware of them.
Yes.
Learn enough to be okay at itbut go with what comes easily to
you.
That's called talent becausewhen you build on that, you'll
(30:01):
be better than anybody elsebecause they'll want what you
know, just go with that.
Love your talents.
Amanda (30:07):
Yeah.
And so, don't really focus likeon your weaknesses and try to
build those.
Like, figure out what you'regood at, and what you like, and
where you want to be, and whatcompany you want to work for.
Kurt (30:19):
Yeah.
I mean you may not be anaccountant by trade, but for
gosh sakes, take an intro courseto accounting, so you understand
the language of business and thebasic outline of a P and L,
right?
Because until then, you don'thave an appreciation for the
pillars of the business, and youcan't really talk artfully to
anybody who is in asenior-decision making capacity.
And this goes to raises too.
(30:40):
Companies have to be profitablein order to have the excess
funds left over to do thingslike raises.
So, if you're focusing on whento approach bosses, you know, it
really is being aware of thecycle in business.
I always tell people, are you afarmer or not?
Farmers are aware of you know,what to plant, where to plant
it, when to plant it, and whento harvest, and sometimes you
(31:04):
know, you want to harvest thatraise now, but it's the wrong
time.
The season is not right.
The company is not in a goodposition.
The sun is not shining, and it'sraining like cats and dogs, and
you're in the middle of thestorm asking for something, it's
not going to happen.
So, save your bullets and waituntil the right moment.
When the company has had a goodfinancial period, and you've
(31:25):
achieved some new goals,constantly be doing that through
thick and thin.
And that disciplined approachand loyalty really matters.
Amanda (31:34):
I love that.
Okay, so s owing the seeds, andtiming, be a good farmer.
That's, that's great.
That is so good.
And this, this is so good, and Ihave to start to close
unfortunately, which is such abummer because there's so much
that has been amazing.
So I do want to ask you though,is there anything else that you
(31:56):
want to add to this conversationabout how people can, you know,
get a raise and feel likethey're valued in their
companies?
Kurt (32:06):
No, I think we've covered so much.
Investing in yourself, I thinkis critical along the way.
You know, if somebody isinterested in looking up Darren
Hardy, he has a great podcast aswell, just about general life
and leadership.
But oftentimes they'll take, ittakes about 5% of whatever your
earning and invested in himselfevery year.
(32:28):
And if you think about that, itcan be a lot of money.
Not for anybody.
You think about what 5% of yourincome would be.
It's a lot of money, probablyfor anybody at any phase of
life.
But if you're not reinvesting inyourself, I don't know how you
add value because you, whetheryou are reading books or you're
going to a seminar or you arepaying for lunch to sit down
with a recruiter who you'venever met, you know, be willing
(32:52):
to step forward and invest inyourself because again, you are
your own business entity.
If you're going to create abrand reputation, you have to
have more value over time.
So getting your networkestablished and surrounding
yourself with some key people onthe way is going to be critical
as well.
And that includes just thebasics of, you know, knowing a
good tax accountant, knowing agood attorney.
(33:14):
These are many things thatpeople wait to do until when
they have a crisis moment, andyou don't have to, life can be a
lot more organized and you cannavigate things a lot more
artfully if you have thosepeople.
And those relationships alreadyestablished when the storm hits.
And so, I think that that'sprobably life advice, but also
career advice.
(33:35):
It really helps.
Amanda (33:36):
Yeah.
And that brand reputation,you've mentioned that a couple
times.
I've never thought about that aslike creating your own brand
almost within, within yourorganization, and as an
employee, do you see that a lotof people will do that?
Kurt (33:53):
I don't know how many do it.
I know we talk about it and muchlike I had mentioned earlier,
you know, dropping pebbles, theadvice is really only worth what
someone's willing to take andput action to.
So, I always, I've learned, youknow, the truisms are truisms
for a reason.
They've proven themselves overtime.
(34:15):
So, those simple sayings, youknow, really, you have to listen
to those, you know, the old BenFranklin kind of stuff, but what
do you do in your own life tobring those to life?
That's the question.
So, it's a matter of droppingpennies along the way, helping
others to huge thing and you'rehelping others along the way.
Ultimately you are going tosucceed because if you're a good
(34:38):
developer of people, you becomethe lifeblood of your
organization.
If you create a reputation foryourself of being someone who's
humble, and smart and funny.
It's one of the things Iremember.
I love, there's some rules youasked me.
One of the things I guess Icould close with and there's a
list.
It's a rule that is made forthis discussion today.
(35:00):
So, here they go.
Here you go.
Okay, so here's some rules I'velearned to live by.
Never say yes immediately innegotiations or otherwise assume
they need you more than you needthem.
It's a good mindset but remainhumble.
Being boastful is unattractive.
We talked about that earlier.
(35:20):
Get things in writing, emailswork fine.
For example, I was able to get amonthly car wash allowance, just
something small, just a smallperk.
But those are the kinds ofthings you can get if you, if
you really want it, you're goingto be asked to be out showing
people around or taking peopleout for whatever reason.
And you want to, you want tohave a good appearance.
Amanda (35:39):
And you said get those in writing.
Like you just said, Hey, get acar wash.
Kurt (35:46):
You recapitulate a conversation that you've had
with someone.
So, if you're talking to theboss about, Hey, as you said,
you know, as we discussed, I'mlooking forward to getting that
car monthly car allowancesplanned.
When can it start?
And it just, and you just getthe yes, it'll start on May 1st
or whatever date it is and thereyou go.
And then if it doesn't happentwo months later, don't worry
about it.
Just send that note to payrolland say, Hey, I'm not sure you
(36:07):
really got the memo.
Here it is and copy the personwho promised it, they won't feel
badly either.
They'll actually feel bad thatit didn't happen.
So, you know, I think the otherthing is make the business case,
learn the language of business.
Like we've talked about, learnhow to put forward a return on
investment case study.
You're going to send me to thisseminar.
This is what I think you'll getout of it.
(36:29):
I will commit to generating Xamount of dollars but being able
to show people that you'rethinking that way from the
beginning is really important.
Especially if you're talkingabout even a 20 cent an hour
raise.
If you give me that raise all ofthis people, oftentimes I'll
promote someone from what I knowthey can do versus what I hope
they can do.
So, I need someone to show methat they have the willingness
to do the job even before theyget paid for it.
(36:51):
When I see that sometimes I'llgive them that you have a bigger
raise than they expect.
I'd say know what you stand for.
Like we talked about being t hebusiness entity, be willing to
be vulnerable.
W e t alked about that.
T here's another one t hat's bebrief.
Brevity has real value in thisworld, especially as things are
going fast and furious a nd people w ere trying to get
(37:12):
through agendas during the dayand some people just go o n a nd
on and on.
And for me, it can be a red flagb ecause they can become the
distractor in t he organization.
J ust constantly peering overthe cubicle, interrupting other
people with stories that havemaybe not even a point.
Amanda (37:32):
I just wanted to come talk to you.
Kurt (37:37):
Exactly, I think people who talk about themselves all
the time is a sound, I alwayslistened to see are they asking
about what somebody else isgoing through or, what are
trying to tell people what theydid over the weekend.
The people who are interested inwhat's going on with other
people, that typically tells methey're externally focused,
which has a really big value forme.
(37:58):
I like those kinds of people Ireally think Ben Zandra is a
great symphony conductor.
You'd get a great Ted talk.
I think many people have watchedover the years, but he has this
great one where he talks aboutrule number six and by the way,
there are no other rules, it'sjust rule number 6, with which
he says is, don't take yourselfso damn serious.
(38:19):
There are people that, you know,when something happens, the hair
on fire people, they're runningdown the hallway.
Oh my God.
To me that just signals you'reout of control and you're
letting little things get toyou.
And instead, I'd rather you bethe person who is the center of
the hurricane and there's thingswhirling around and you're
going, Hmm, okay, I see wherethat's going.
That's going to be fine.
That's not going to hurt me.
(38:40):
You know, you need people thatcan have that, that
self-awareness, and instillconfidence, and calm and others
versus the person who's justconstantly being a warmest about
things and gossipy, there's alot of drama out there.
Amanda (38:52):
I know we don't need all of that.
Okay.
So, where can people find you,Kurt, if they want to connect or
anything like that?
Kurt (39:04):
Yeah.
LinkedIn can be good, but Itypically have what I call a
semi-closed network.
So, if I've actually donebusiness with people, or I know
someone in my network who hasdone business with them
successfully, then I will admitthem to the network.
I found that to be very valuablefor me because there are a lot
of business development people.
God bless them, they've got atough job, but they're trying to
(39:26):
get new business, probably 10,15 emails a day of wanting to
join.
And a network is only what it'sworth.
And I understand people wantingto get access to your network,
that I get, but I want to makesure that when they get access
they're responsible about it andthat they are really a master of
(39:47):
whatever their trade happens tobe, and I can feel confident
recommending them.
So, as much as I'd like to say,yeah, contact me on LinkedIn, I
might not be able to do much.
I think the best thing to do isemail me at my private email
address.
I'll just give it to you.
It's, Kurt.Kuyper@gmail.com.
(40:07):
And I'd be happy to try to getback in touch with you.
Amanda (40:09):
Nice, answer any questions.
You've been so good Kurt.
Yes.
You've brought a ton of valueand I know that people are
really going to be excited aboutthis episode.
I'm excited.
I learned a ton and I feel likeI need to take an improv class
now.
Kurt (40:31):
It's a lot of fun, it's a form of group therapy.
I think everybody should gothrough i t.
Amanda (40:35):
That's awesome.
Alright, well I'll let you getback to your day and thank you
again, so much.
And we, uh, thank you guys somuch for tuning in, and if you
haven't already, go ahead andsubscribe to the podcast and
we'd also love it if you'd leaveus a comment.
A five-star comment would befantastic, but I'm going to sign
(40:56):
off for now and I look forwardto seeing you in the next
episode of the raise up podcast.
Bye.
Because I always tell people, are you a farmer, or
not?
Farmers are aware of what toplant, where to plant it, when
to plant it, and when toharvest, and sometimes you want
to harvest that raise now, butit's the wrong time.
The season is not right.
The company is not in a goodposition.
(00:22):
The sun is not shining, and it'sraining like cats and dogs, and
you're in the middle of a stormasking for something, and it's
not going to happen, so saveyour bullets and wait until the
right moment.
When the company has a goodfinancial period, and you've
achieved some new goals,constantly be doing that through
thick and thin, and thatdisciplined approach, and
(00:43):
loyalty really matters.
Amanda (00:44):
Welcome.
Welcome to the number onepodcast that teaches people how
to get paid what they're worth.
I'm your host and resonate humanbehavior nerd, Amanda Lefever.
I'm super excited about today'sguest and you should be to, Kurt
(01:04):
Kuyper is the president of WKSKrispy Kreme.
Yes, I said Krispy Kremefriends.
This man is deliveringextraordinary doughnut
experiences and glaze tastinessto people all over Northern
California, Arizona, New Mexico,Colorado, Nevada, Utah, Idaho
and Wisconsin.
He's a long-time successful foodindustry executive.
(01:27):
And I read that Kurt lovesfishing, body surfing, snow
skiing, internationalgeopolitical and economic
strategy.
What?
Giving back is part of his DNA.
And he currently serves as aboard member for Hoby Arizona.
Is that right?
Is that how you say it?
Awesome.
It's a nonprofit youthleadership foundation.
(01:50):
Kurt Kuyper, welcome to theshow.
I am so glad that you are here.
Kurt (01:55):
Thank you, Amanda.
I'm delighted.
Thank you.
Amanda (01:56):
Yeah, it's going to be a great show.
And first, I have to ask becauseI love doughnuts and I am
definitely your target market.
So how do doughnuts, and thislove of geopolitical and
economic strategy mix, reallyquick?
Could you just tell me like howdo those loves overlap?
Kurt (02:17):
That's a great question.
I don't even know how to answerthat question.
I think the people around theworld love doughnuts and,
everybody's got a sweet tooth nomatter where you're from.
Some are less so, and some aremore so, but it's been
interesting how the simple,humble little doughnut Krispy
Kreme represents has allowed meto connect with people in
(02:38):
different countries.
And I've always been a studentof international politics that
was a part of my undergraduatestudies.
And so, I think that, I justfollowed my passions and was
lucky enough to find out what Ididn't want to do in life.
And I found Krispy Kreme, andrecognized the incredible, s
imple pleasure t hat it was, butalso what it meant to people at
(02:59):
an emotional level.
It's been an extremely rewardingexperience to be able to be part
of it over the years.
Amanda (03:07):
Yeah.
So what is your favoritedoughnut?
Kurt (03:11):
You know, I love a hot, sour cream cake doughnut.
Yeah.
There's something about it.
The regular glaze, I mean ouroriginal glaze doughnut is the
hero of the show, and it's whathas paid my salary for many,
many years.
But the hot, sour cream, by theway, you can take it home,
(03:32):
microwave it for seven seconds.
A little vanilla ice cream, anda nice caramel sauce.
Amanda (03:37):
I have never heard of a hot, sour cream.
I didn't even know that existed.
Kurt (03:43):
It's kind of like a buttermilk doughnut, but ours
has a unique flavor that I don'tthink you can get anywhere else.
Amanda (03:46):
That sounds awesome.
Okay.
So, now I'll stop talking aboutdoughnuts because I love them.
But I also want to ask, like,let's talk about, of course,
getting a raise in the food andbeverage industry.
I read an article in"RestaurantToday" that said we expect to
reward good workers with meritraises as appropriate.
(04:08):
But your line employee expects asort of longevity bonus simply
for putting this time in.
What would you say to peoplelooking to have this once a year
conversation about their hourlyrate?
Kurt (04:21):
Sure.
Well, I'd say it, you don't haveto wait.
You know, I like to tell peoplethat at the end of the day
performance trumps tenure, orany regularly scheduled
meetings.
So, if you have the ability tosit down with anyone in your
organization to learn about howdo you grow your worth, and
value, slash career, do it.
(04:43):
Don't be shy.
Ask people; people love to sharetheir advice, which is one of
the reasons I love yourinvitation to talk today.
You know, there have been a lotof lessons learned over the
years, and not anythingnecessarily that I had an
epiphany about but have theluxury of spending time with
people that taught me, and it'sjust nice to be able to pass it
along.
I think organizations lovedoers, and the key with that is,
(05:07):
I look for a few things inpeople, I look for those who are
hungry, because I can't teachit.
The fire in the belly that manypeople talk about,
intellectually curious.
They are the people that like tofigure out how to make things
better.
They want to understand how abusiness works, the language of
business, and they arethoughtful.
(05:28):
They're action oriented peoplewho really don't mind saying,
hi, my name is so and so, I'dlove to sit down with you for
just a few minutes when you havetime, what's the best day?
And I oftentimes will make timefor those people.
They'll come out of the blue,and they can be an employee in a
store.
And it's just nice to know thatsomeone is genuinely interested
(05:49):
and they're not looking for theimmediate raise.
They're looking for information,which then allows them to get
where they want to go.
And I'm happy to help them alongthe way.
And, even if it doesn't meanthey stay with our organization,
I tell them all the time, thatcandor level we've established
in the relationship is critical,because if I'm able to help you,
ultimately you're going to turnaround and say to someone else,
(06:12):
that's a great place to work.
Those people care about you asan individual.
But in the meantime, whileyou're still with us, you then
understand why you're doing whatyou're doing, so you can put
pennies in the bank to go so youcan go achieve your dream, and
we'll cheer you on to victory.
And I mean, 50% of the timepeople ended up staying with us
because they realized that it'snot necessarily greener, and
(06:35):
they can explore their ideas,and their desires openly without
feeling like we're thinking lessof them because there are flight
risks.
It's not that way at all.
So, I think that you know,again, performance, trumps
tenure and asking for anopportunity to learn how to make
more, it's not only sensible,it's essential.
(06:56):
And those who wait are reallyfooling themselves.
They need to toot their own hornat some point.
And, y ou know, I tell peopleall the time, at least in our
business for example, at a crewlevel, you can make doughnuts,
you can decorate doughnuts, andyou can sell doughnuts.
Oftentimes people have oneposition, but they will wait for
(07:18):
someone to notice them.
Instead of saying, Hey, h ow i smy product looking?
How, am I doing, and what, whencan I learn something else so I
can add value?
Bing, Bing, Bing, light goes offand the manager then says, b ut
let's sit down.
I'll calendar you for sometraining i n this other
department.
And that's how you proactivelygo about getting on the agenda.
(07:39):
Y ou got to get on someone'sagenda on their calendar, a nd
that's how you do it.
And t hen, once you startlearning skills, different
skills, you're g oing t o earnmore.
And once you become what I calla triple threat in our business,
y ou l earn all thosedepartments.
You then have punched the ticketinto the entry-level training
program for our managementprogram.
And it's no different, once yougo up, you learn HR skills, you
learn what you know how tonegotiate, y ou l earn just
(08:02):
business law, etcetera, andeventually you're ready to take
t he leap, and do cross-departmental or multi-unit type
roles.
Amanda (08:10):
Interesting.
Okay.
So, typically, when somebodyapproaches their manager, I love
that tactful way of saying, whencan I learn something else to
add value?
Is that something that peopleare asking you to whenever
you're sitting down withemployees,and they're hoping to
kind of like move up the laddersomehow?
Kurt (08:29):
Yup.
I think some people come at itwith a bigger desire.
So, they'll say, how do I getyour job?
And I'll say, that's a greatquestion.
It's multilayered and it takesmany years, and the opportunity
is there.
Everyone that's smart is lookingfor someone to take their job.
I'm looking at grooming peopleall the time to take over the
(08:49):
next level position and havingredundancy throughout the
organization.
That's our lifeblood and ourability to sustain in case
someone, God forbid, gets hit bya bus, gets sick, is out for
multiple months for whateverreason, and we need to be able
to continue without a buck.
That's the signal that you havea smooth-running machine.
And that's the true salute toanybody who runs a store or a
(09:12):
shift, is that when you're gone,the place operates as well or
better without you.
So, the depth of training you'vedone for your people.
So, I always tell them, look,focus on building a legacy for
yourself.
Build a reputation.
I often tell people, think ofyourself, and this is not news,
some book I read at some point,but think of yourself as a
business entity.
Think of yourself as a brand,and if you think of Gillette,
(09:35):
what are they known for?
What are the top three thingsthat they're known for?
Product marketing, etcetera,great packaging innovation over
the years of how toincrementally price things.
What are you known for as anindividual?
And if you're not sure, askpeople around you.
Ask the people that have workedwith you, and ask them to be
completely candid with you,good, bad, or ugly.
(09:55):
And when you find out, ask themwhat are the top three words
that you think of when you thinkof me as a business partner?
And that will help you see ifyou have a lack of consistency
in how people perceive you.
And then, you have to startmanaging that.
You have to start managingthrough your behaviors, and your
(10:16):
own time, and manage your owntime effectively.
There's the old saying at Hoby,we talk a lot about it, which is
you're writing this foundation,and it talks about leadership of
self, leadership of others andleadership in community.
And you can start with yourselfif you don't have an organized
routine in your day to tacklethe basics and put yourself in
the right frame of mind.
(10:37):
You can easily get diluted intothinking that because you've
been somewhere long enough, youdeserve more money, and that's
not the case.
Amanda (10:46):
Yeah.
You had mentioned that peoplewill come to you and say, I
haven't had a raise for awhile,and then you will ask them when
was the last raise?
What are the other questions?
Because I know that I personallydid this whenever I was working
in the restaurant business, Iwent to my boss, and I said,
it's been a really long time andso and so is making more money
(11:07):
than me, and I work harder thanshe does.
And I know now that I probablyshouldn't have approached my
boss like that.
But it was a learningexperience.
So, what would you say tosomeone that is maybe in the
same boat?
Kurt (11:22):
I don't think what you said is wrong at all.
In fact, I think when peoplecome to me and say that it tells
me that it's an opportunity tohelp them understand how the
business works, and how how theyget perceived.
And part of it too is a bigword, it's patience.
This happens often where we seepeople who come in, they're
making more than someone else,and it can be either that they
(11:43):
negotiated a better deal.
It could be that the marketconditions were different when
they struck the deal with thecompany.
They need to be bringingsomething to the table that
you're not aware of.
But people oftentimes cure asalary or a pay rate and think,
oh my gosh, why is that personmaking so much more money?
And I think it's perfectly fineto say, your boss, look, I'm
going to understand whathappened here.
How, how are they getting this?
(12:04):
And I'm not.
I've got more value.
Just help educate me.
And most of the time I'll tellpeople, look, you know what?
In some cases, you're right.
This was a miss on our part.
We need to sit down with you.
Thank you for bringing it to myattention.
Other times it's, I tell people,look, give them a year or two.
You've got to see how any, ifyou're not willing to be
patient, and I mean that soundslike a long time for some
(12:25):
people, and I tell them what youstruck a deal with the company
and you should be happy with therate that you struck.
If you're not, you have achoice.
You can either leave and try togo get more money somewhere
else, or you can stay and provethat you can be patient and earn
value and create a legacy foryourself that makes it
absolutely glaringly clear thatwe need to pay you more because
(12:46):
you are o f such value.
Meanwhile, the person that wasmaking more money than you
either have performed in astellar way and impressed you.
So, you go, ah, now I know w hythat person was brought in and
paid more than me, or they willbe gone.
And you'll be like, w ell, theorganization really realized
that that person wasn't thatgood.
(13:08):
So, it just takes time.
But organizations sometimes areslower to the table than we'd
like to be.
But this is the value of havingregular conversations and
understanding the pulse of notonly the people that you work
for, but the people you workwith, and when that is fluid and
(13:28):
constant, i t's amazing what canhappen.
The stifling part of all theseraise issues comes about from a
lack of communication, like 99%of the problems wi th t he
business.
Amanda (13:40):
Do you think it's the manager and the employees lack
of communication, or do youthink it's like a top-down type
of communication or, what do youthink it is,?
Kurt (13:52):
Yeah, that's a great question.
I think it's both ways.
I think obviously, it has tostart from the leadership.
The tone, and the culture of thecompany, and fostering that kind
of candor.
I oftentimes tell people look,trust is a delicate thing, so to
the extent we can avoid havingto trust one another is really
important.
What I prefer to have is asystem in place that assures
(14:13):
that we have certain things wehave to abide by, the core
values that guide us, oursystems in the store for cash
deposits, etcetera.
So there's no finger pointing,but more importantly, that
there's enough one-on-onediscussions happening regularly
that are documented so that Iunderstand where you're coming
from, and vice versa, and it'sclear, and there isn't a
(14:33):
lingering curiosity.
The person's blind when they'redriving home, boy, I wonder,
should I have said this, and youknow, if they're not comfortable
picking up the phone and saying,you know, I forgot to ask you
this question, that's a problem.
There has to be a candor andopenness that the managers or
people in general who say, I gotthis, I got it, I got it.
(14:56):
I don't need any help.
Those are the ones I've worriedabout because being vulnerable
is a critical element of beingpart of a team.
Because when people know you'rewilling to say, you know what, I
don't know how to do this or Ineed your help and I can't do
this, without you.
The world opens up.
People want to help each other.
I think that that's a naturalhuman tendency.
You want to help, but if youdon't have regular
(15:19):
communication, and you justaren't fostering this kinds of
business relationships, itbuilds what I call these Chinese
walls.
I mentioned that phrase earlierw ith you privately, but you
know, people can assume thatthings are happening behind the
scenes that aren't evenhappening, or they can assume
too much that, w ell, I'm goingto have my r aise.
They're going to notice me.
(15:39):
My father told me at one pointin time, you know, look, you
have to punch your o wn ticket.
The conductor may not c ome b ya nd ask for your ticket on the
train.
He grew up in the train d ay.
He said, it's not because theconductor's a bad person.
It's just that they don't have asystem.
So, we all have to have systems,whether you're a manager or
(16:01):
you're an employee that youknow, I call them mental i
slands on the calendar, you needto put something out there on a
calendar.
T hen, in two months I'm goingto go, I'm going to achieve X,
Y, and Z.
I'm not going to go to my bossand say, Hey, I'm not sure you
know this, but I did do what wetalked about.
I f ollowed through, I'velearned these skills and I hope
you appreciate the fact that Iam doing what we talked about.
(16:25):
I love that, because I think inthe pace, we all move,
oftentimes those kinds offollow-through actions get
missed.
But you need to be able to in apolite way, show people that
you, you set goals for yourself,you followed through on maybe
just a passing conversation tohave with your boss or someone
from outside of the storeenvironment who you happen to
(16:46):
talk to, you know, behind thecounter so to speak.
But when people know you reallydo listen and do follow through,
it makes a huge impact.
They remember, I remember thatperson at that store.
Wow, they're an up and comer andit's just little things like
that, kind of you dropping apebble, and eventually, people
remember.
And if they see that over timethat you're consistently
(17:07):
fostering, managing up, andsideways, they see you as a
collaborative spirit versussomeone who's just out for
themselves.
Amanda (17:14):
I could see that.
I really liked, punch your ownticket.
So, are you doing, do you feellike people have to do this in
like a tactful way?
Like you're not bragging or, areyou bragging?
How are you approaching theseconversations?
Kurt (17:31):
I think it's one of the other things we look for is
humility, right?
So, boastfulness is reallyunattractive.
What I think is very attractive,is someone who's self-assured,
someone who knows that I havelearned, we've talked oftentimes
in terms of knowledge, will, andability, your organization's
responsibility is to give youthe knowledge.
But ultimately, it's up to theindividual to demonstrate
(17:52):
through their own behaviors thatthey have the will and the
ability to do a particular job.
Some people burn out, and theylose the will, they're very
good, but they've lost it.
The organization asks you to askitself, what have we not done?
So, this person's willpower isstill strong.
That's one question.
The other side of it could be,that this person has a lot of
(18:13):
desire, and a lot of passion,but they're just not suited for
this role.
Maybe they're not a frontcounter retail salesperson but
can be very effective somewhereelse.
Maybe even in the organization,maybe they would be excellent in
accounting, helping us becausethey're very detail-oriented but
don't want to deal with thecustomers that much.
And so, as you learn who youare, you have to be self-aware,
(18:35):
and be able to articulate thatto whoever you're working for or
with, and say, look, you know,I'm more of this kind of person,
and I'm passionate about this.
How can I leverage that tendencyand my skillset?
And that just opens up floodgates of information, because
oftentimes, I love for people togrow up in the field and run
(18:55):
businesses really well, and allof a sudden they're 25 years old
and they're running a 2 to 3million dollar business.
And I say, you know, prettyamazing, right?
So, if you want to grow yourskillsets and manage more
through people across otherunits, let's talk about that.
But maybe, that may or may notinterest you.
Maybe, you'd be more interestedin moving to our support center
and helping in some sort ofadministrative support way,
(19:17):
because some people really wantto learn marketing.
They want a Monday throughFriday job versus a seven day a
week, 24- hour restaurant, crazykind world, which I love.
So, everybody has to know whatkind of life they want, and ask
for that.
You know, I've said this before,but I think it's finding out
what you don't want to do is 90%of the battle.
(19:39):
So, you've got to exposeyourself to different things.
That's not to say job-hopping isideal, right?
Because you can get exposed todifferent pursuits within an
organization.
The best people, who I see thathave just that curiosity we
talked about earlier or thathunger, I'll say, have you ever
thought about coming to theoffice for a day and spend a day
(20:01):
in accounts receivable?
Because it may be that, Hey,they don't have an appreciation
for how difficult that job is.
And then they go there, and theyrealize my job is not as hard as
I thought.
I liked what I'm doing overthere.
They're doing a lot, and theyhave a lot of pressure, and it
just keeps coming.
(20:21):
The bills keep coming in, youknow.
So, I think the more we actuallycross- pollinate, that way
people get exposed to what theystart comparing what they really
do, and do not like to do.
And they also build healthyrespect for what other people do
in an organization.
A lot of people want to go outand be an entrepreneur and make
a lot of money and all thosestandards, the starry- eyed
child kind of syndrome, right?
(20:42):
At the end of the day, if you'veever been an entrepreneur and
been out on your own, like Ihave, you understand the value
of being part of a biggerorganization.
You have a healthy respect foreach of the roles in the
organization, and you understandthe value they add, and how much
time they can free up for you.
So, you're not having to be thepayroll, you're not having to X,
Y, and Z, and deal with theworker's compensation, all these
(21:03):
types of issues.
So, I think it's aboutsurrounding yourself with the
right people.
And for anybody who's trying tomanage up in their career, need
to look at who they arenaturally, and then make sure
that over time they exposethemselves to people who balance
them.
So, if you're naturally anEnergizer bunny, I call them
(21:24):
that, they have to just go, go,go rah, rah, rah cheerleader
mentality.
Amanda (21:30):
I know someone like that!
Kurt (21:30):
I do too.
Or they can be the, what I'dcall the organized taskmaster.
And that doesn't mean that it'sbad in a bad way.
It means that they get thingsdone.
They're rigorous, they're detailoriented.
They're a driver, but they'renot the person that always
should be conducting the HRdiscussions, the kind of person
(21:51):
that you need, someone else whohas the softer side of Sears
approach to be able to navigate,artfully, difficult situations
in a way that makes both partiesfeel heard.
And oftentimes some people willjust talk over others.
They may not be a great listeneror an active listener.
And so, you have to figure out,who are you?
(22:12):
Are you not a good listener?
How do you get better at it?
And who do I need to go spendtime with so I can learn how to
be better?
You know, you'll pick up things.
I think one of your otherinterviewees mentioned this
idea, which is that you, you'reputting little stones in a wall
even though you don't remember,you don't realize it throughout
your career and you'll dothings, reach out and do some
fun, different things becauseyou'll be amazed how they end up
(22:35):
benefiting you in the long run.
From my own experience, Iremember taking an improv class
in Hollywood years ago when Igraduated college.
And had three different jobs totry and make ends meet.
One was selling shoes, one wasdoing the books for a talent
agency, and the other waswaiting tables down in Malibu,
and I just by chance happened tohear about this class.
(22:57):
So, I said, what the heck, I'mgoing to go try this-best thing
I did at that age.
In retrospect, I didn't realizeit until 20 years later, but it
got me comfortable talking toaudiences and being comfortable
with silence and acknowledgingthe value that someone else
brings to the table.
Little things that you justdon't realize when you're in a
(23:18):
simple improv class, whowould've thunk?
Amanda (23:21):
Not me, that's crazy.
So, did you do it for publicspeaking or did you do it just
because it sounded like cool andfun?
Kurt (23:28):
It was a mixture of both.
I was trying to realize or getout of being shy, if you will,
which was natural, I wasn't anintrovert by any stretch, but by
the same token, I admired peoplewho could get up and just improv
, improvise and talkextemporaneously about any topic
(23:49):
and just kind of go with it, andbe engaging.
To me, that was something that Ididn't think I was, and I wanted
to learn how to do it.
I don't know that I've evergotten there, but I am
constantly trying to learn howto connect with people.
Amanda (24:04):
Yeah.
No, I think you do a great job.
If I say so myself.
So, I have one question.
How does someone go from, didyou say selling shoes, or
working on shoes, working inrestaurants and doing books for
a talent agency?
How does someone go from thosethings to being a president of a
company?
Kurt (24:16):
I'm selling shoes at the Broadway, Fox Hills mall.
Sure.
Well, again, I tried some thingsthat I didn't have say, the best
luck with falling into the rightsituation where I had either the
(24:38):
great mentor at my feet or upongraduation from college.
I also had a little bit of awild hair I think admittedly at
that time in life.
And I wanted to try a few newthings, but I quickly realized
doing three jobs and workingthose crazy hours that that was
not a sensible life.
And so I ended up falling backon a role with Atlantic
Richfield oil company indowntown Los Angeles and working
(24:59):
in their interstate taxationdepartment for legal affairs.
And wow, you figure they'llfigure that out.
That it was, I wanted to find acompany that had a wild cat kind
of mentality, and the oilbusiness does have that, but
they're also a huge business,and they were very diversified.
And I just happened to fall intothat through a friend.
(25:19):
I said, look, where would yougo?
And they recommended this.
And, it turned out to befantastic because the big
company had immediate streetcredibility, when I ended up
talking to people and just byfate, and this was really what
set me on the path to be in therestaurant business with, I'll
be as brief as I can.
I happened to go to a sponsoredfunction that Arco had, and it
(25:40):
was Henry Kissinger who wasspeaking.
And I happened to sit in thisroom and right next to me an
older gentleman sat down, westarted talking, he said, what
are you doing?
I told him,;I'm working in theinterstate taxation department.
How are you liking that?
I said, I'm bored.
I like the work, but it'srepetitive, and it's not what I
thought it was going to be.
And he said, what would you liketo do?
(26:00):
And I said, well, I'm not sureyet, but I'm trying to turn over
the stones and figure out whereto go.
And I think I would be good inmarketing and maybe asset
management, something alongthose lines.
And he said, well, I happen tobe the head of real estate for
Atlantic Richfield.
And yet again, quirk of fate.
But we got into thisconversation.
(26:20):
He said, you know, I really likeyou, but I can't hire you.
You can't get in my departmentbecause you don't have an MBA.
And he said, if you go get one,I'd love to talk to you.
And I said, well, I will go getone.
But in the meantime, is theresome people that you might
introduce me to so I can getexposed to the different avenues
within the real estate world?
Because I know a little bitabout marketing and a little
bit, you know.
And so, he did.
(26:41):
He introduced me to people allthrough Los Angeles.
And I was able to get meetingswith people I would never have
been able to get meetings with,purely because it was an
exploratory discussion that hehad arranged.
And that, that was a greatlesson for me, is you can help
introduce people.
It's up to them to make theirway.
And it was a great example ofleadership.
And when I think about himoften, Ben Kubler is his name.
(27:03):
He, God rest him, but he was agreat man because he helped
someone.
He listened, he listened, andI've always remembered that.
But through that, I ended upworking for a brokerage company
in Orange County that ended upgetting acquired by a bank and
then got apart by bank ofAmerica and they decided to
invest.
But meantime, I had developedrelationships with the
(27:24):
university of California,Irvine, and ended up working for
them in real estate while goingand getting my MBA and got
exposed to differentrestauranteurs who were looking
for space.
I was helping them securerestaurants in Pasadena,
etcetera.
That may is the pivotablemoment.
When I realized I liked therestaurant business, I'm seeing
(27:44):
these people who are chefs,owners, and they're wearing
multiple hats.
It's exciting.
And I ended up working for PizzaHut doing consulting work, real
estate, and eventuallyleveraging that to work with
Taco Bell and then to KrispyKreme and onward, and onward.
But I graduated with an MBA,decided I'm going to learn this
business from the ground up.
And I took a job as an assistantmanager with Taco Bell, with an
(28:06):
MBA.
Amanda (28:07):
Wow, just in a store, like managing people?
Slinging tacos?
Kurt (28:11):
And it was really interesting because they said,
you know, where do you want tolive?
I said, North Carolina, look atme.
I was living in Irvine at thetime.
Why North Carolina?
And I said, well for me it'sgoing to be near the beaches.
It's going to be near themountains.
I can fish, I can go horsebackriding, I can do all the things
I love doing.
And they said, okay, sure.
So, they hooked me up with somepeople in North Carolina and we
(28:33):
ended up getting sold off to afranchisee.
But that was also the benefit ofworking for the company and then
seeing the franchise world.
So, that's where my careerreally diverged.
And you know, I had a choiceeither to stay with the company
and hunker down and feel safeand go back to Irvine, or stay
and go with the unknown in NorthCarolina with a new company that
bought us out.
(28:53):
And decided to go with theunknown, because I was happy
where I was living, and I likedit by hook or by crook.
I ended up coming back westbecause that's where the base of
my knowledge was, which isanother thing for people to
realize is you know where youchoose to go to work and who you
go to work for can oftentimeshelp determine the trajectory or
the ultimate location you endedup getting based in the higher
(29:16):
up you go, the more flexibilityyou probably gained to being
able to take jobs in differentlocales.
But you also have more freedom,I think financially just to make
those choices.
So, to the extent that you justare self-aware, you know where
you want to go, you know thetypes of environments where
you'd be happy, and you'rethoughtful about it.
You know, it's not that you fallforward gracefully.
(29:39):
You have to have a plan.
You have to say, look, these arethe things I like doing.
This is what I'm good at.
I call it talent.
Some people fight the trend orfight the current, and they go,
I have to learn those thingsthat are hard for me.
No.
Be aware of them.
Yes.
Learn enough to be okay at itbut go with what comes easily to
you.
That's called talent becausewhen you build on that, you'll
(30:01):
be better than anybody elsebecause they'll want what you
know, just go with that.
Love your talents.
Amanda (30:07):
Yeah.
And so, don't really focus likeon your weaknesses and try to
build those.
Like, figure out what you'regood at, and what you like, and
where you want to be, and whatcompany you want to work for.
Kurt (30:19):
Yeah.
I mean you may not be anaccountant by trade, but for
gosh sakes, take an intro courseto accounting, so you understand
the language of business and thebasic outline of a P and L,
right?
Because until then, you don'thave an appreciation for the
pillars of the business, and youcan't really talk artfully to
anybody who is in asenior-decision making capacity.
And this goes to raises too.
(30:40):
Companies have to be profitablein order to have the excess
funds left over to do thingslike raises.
So, if you're focusing on whento approach bosses, you know, it
really is being aware of thecycle in business.
I always tell people, are you afarmer or not?
Farmers are aware of you know,what to plant, where to plant
it, when to plant it, and whento harvest, and sometimes you
(31:04):
know, you want to harvest thatraise now, but it's the wrong
time.
The season is not right.
The company is not in a goodposition.
The sun is not shining, and it'sraining like cats and dogs, and
you're in the middle of thestorm asking for something, it's
not going to happen.
So, save your bullets and waituntil the right moment.
When the company has had a goodfinancial period, and you've
(31:25):
achieved some new goals,constantly be doing that through
thick and thin.
And that disciplined approachand loyalty really matters.
Amanda (31:34):
I love that.
Okay, so s owing the seeds, andtiming, be a good farmer.
That's, that's great.
That is so good.
And this, this is so good, and Ihave to start to close
unfortunately, which is such abummer because there's so much
that has been amazing.
So I do want to ask you though,is there anything else that you
(31:56):
want to add to this conversationabout how people can, you know,
get a raise and feel likethey're valued in their
companies?
Kurt (32:06):
No, I think we've covered so much.
Investing in yourself, I thinkis critical along the way.
You know, if somebody isinterested in looking up Darren
Hardy, he has a great podcast aswell, just about general life
and leadership.
But oftentimes they'll take, ittakes about 5% of whatever your
earning and invested in himselfevery year.
(32:28):
And if you think about that, itcan be a lot of money.
Not for anybody.
You think about what 5% of yourincome would be.
It's a lot of money, probablyfor anybody at any phase of
life.
But if you're not reinvesting inyourself, I don't know how you
add value because you, whetheryou are reading books or you're
going to a seminar or you arepaying for lunch to sit down
with a recruiter who you'venever met, you know, be willing
(32:52):
to step forward and invest inyourself because again, you are
your own business entity.
If you're going to create abrand reputation, you have to
have more value over time.
So getting your networkestablished and surrounding
yourself with some key people onthe way is going to be critical
as well.
And that includes just thebasics of, you know, knowing a
good tax accountant, knowing agood attorney.
(33:14):
These are many things thatpeople wait to do until when
they have a crisis moment, andyou don't have to, life can be a
lot more organized and you cannavigate things a lot more
artfully if you have thosepeople.
And those relationships alreadyestablished when the storm hits.
And so, I think that that'sprobably life advice, but also
career advice.
(33:35):
It really helps.
Amanda (33:36):
Yeah.
And that brand reputation,you've mentioned that a couple
times.
I've never thought about that aslike creating your own brand
almost within, within yourorganization, and as an
employee, do you see that a lotof people will do that?
Kurt (33:53):
I don't know how many do it.
I know we talk about it and muchlike I had mentioned earlier,
you know, dropping pebbles, theadvice is really only worth what
someone's willing to take andput action to.
So, I always, I've learned, youknow, the truisms are truisms
for a reason.
They've proven themselves overtime.
(34:15):
So, those simple sayings, youknow, really, you have to listen
to those, you know, the old BenFranklin kind of stuff, but what
do you do in your own life tobring those to life?
That's the question.
So, it's a matter of droppingpennies along the way, helping
others to huge thing and you'rehelping others along the way.
Ultimately you are going tosucceed because if you're a good
(34:38):
developer of people, you becomethe lifeblood of your
organization.
If you create a reputation foryourself of being someone who's
humble, and smart and funny.
It's one of the things Iremember.
I love, there's some rules youasked me.
One of the things I guess Icould close with and there's a
list.
It's a rule that is made forthis discussion today.
(35:00):
So, here they go.
Here you go.
Okay, so here's some rules I'velearned to live by.
Never say yes immediately innegotiations or otherwise assume
they need you more than you needthem.
It's a good mindset but remainhumble.
Being boastful is unattractive.
We talked about that earlier.
(35:20):
Get things in writing, emailswork fine.
For example, I was able to get amonthly car wash allowance, just
something small, just a smallperk.
But those are the kinds ofthings you can get if you, if
you really want it, you're goingto be asked to be out showing
people around or taking peopleout for whatever reason.
And you want to, you want tohave a good appearance.
Amanda (35:39):
And you said get those in writing.
Like you just said, Hey, get acar wash.
Kurt (35:46):
You recapitulate a conversation that you've had
with someone.
So, if you're talking to theboss about, Hey, as you said,
you know, as we discussed, I'mlooking forward to getting that
car monthly car allowancesplanned.
When can it start?
And it just, and you just getthe yes, it'll start on May 1st
or whatever date it is and thereyou go.
And then if it doesn't happentwo months later, don't worry
about it.
Just send that note to payrolland say, Hey, I'm not sure you
(36:07):
really got the memo.
Here it is and copy the personwho promised it, they won't feel
badly either.
They'll actually feel bad thatit didn't happen.
So, you know, I think the otherthing is make the business case,
learn the language of business.
Like we've talked about, learnhow to put forward a return on
investment case study.
You're going to send me to thisseminar.
This is what I think you'll getout of it.
(36:29):
I will commit to generating Xamount of dollars but being able
to show people that you'rethinking that way from the
beginning is really important.
Especially if you're talkingabout even a 20 cent an hour
raise.
If you give me that raise all ofthis people, oftentimes I'll
promote someone from what I knowthey can do versus what I hope
they can do.
So, I need someone to show methat they have the willingness
to do the job even before theyget paid for it.
(36:51):
When I see that sometimes I'llgive them that you have a bigger
raise than they expect.
I'd say know what you stand for.
Like we talked about being t hebusiness entity, be willing to
be vulnerable.
W e t alked about that.
T here's another one t hat's bebrief.
Brevity has real value in thisworld, especially as things are
going fast and furious a nd people w ere trying to get
(37:12):
through agendas during the dayand some people just go o n a nd
on and on.
And for me, it can be a red flagb ecause they can become the
distractor in t he organization.
J ust constantly peering overthe cubicle, interrupting other
people with stories that havemaybe not even a point.
Amanda (37:32):
I just wanted to come talk to you.
Kurt (37:37):
Exactly, I think people who talk about themselves all
the time is a sound, I alwayslistened to see are they asking
about what somebody else isgoing through or, what are
trying to tell people what theydid over the weekend.
The people who are interested inwhat's going on with other
people, that typically tells methey're externally focused,
which has a really big value forme.
(37:58):
I like those kinds of people Ireally think Ben Zandra is a
great symphony conductor.
You'd get a great Ted talk.
I think many people have watchedover the years, but he has this
great one where he talks aboutrule number six and by the way,
there are no other rules, it'sjust rule number 6, with which
he says is, don't take yourselfso damn serious.
(38:19):
There are people that, you know,when something happens, the hair
on fire people, they're runningdown the hallway.
Oh my God.
To me that just signals you'reout of control and you're
letting little things get toyou.
And instead, I'd rather you bethe person who is the center of
the hurricane and there's thingswhirling around and you're
going, Hmm, okay, I see wherethat's going.
That's going to be fine.
That's not going to hurt me.
(38:40):
You know, you need people thatcan have that, that
self-awareness, and instillconfidence, and calm and others
versus the person who's justconstantly being a warmest about
things and gossipy, there's alot of drama out there.
Amanda (38:52):
I know we don't need all of that.
Okay.
So, where can people find you,Kurt, if they want to connect or
anything like that?
Kurt (39:04):
Yeah.
LinkedIn can be good, but Itypically have what I call a
semi-closed network.
So, if I've actually donebusiness with people, or I know
someone in my network who hasdone business with them
successfully, then I will admitthem to the network.
I found that to be very valuablefor me because there are a lot
of business development people.
God bless them, they've got atough job, but they're trying to
(39:26):
get new business, probably 10,15 emails a day of wanting to
join.
And a network is only what it'sworth.
And I understand people wantingto get access to your network,
that I get, but I want to makesure that when they get access
they're responsible about it andthat they are really a master of
(39:47):
whatever their trade happens tobe, and I can feel confident
recommending them.
So, as much as I'd like to say,yeah, contact me on LinkedIn, I
might not be able to do much.
I think the best thing to do isemail me at my private email
address.
I'll just give it to you.
It's, Kurt.Kuyper@gmail.com.
(40:07):
And I'd be happy to try to getback in touch with you.
Amanda (40:09):
Nice, answer any questions.
You've been so good Kurt.
Yes.
You've brought a ton of valueand I know that people are
really going to be excited aboutthis episode.
I'm excited.
I learned a ton and I feel likeI need to take an improv class
now.
Kurt (40:31):
It's a lot of fun, it's a form of group therapy.
I think everybody should gothrough i t.
Amanda (40:35):
That's awesome.
Alright, well I'll let you getback to your day and thank you
again, so much.
And we, uh, thank you guys somuch for tuning in, and if you
haven't already, go ahead andsubscribe to the podcast and
we'd also love it if you'd leaveus a comment.
A five-star comment would befantastic, but I'm going to sign
(40:56):
off for now and I look forwardto seeing you in the next
episode of the raise up podcast.
Bye.
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