October 13, 2025 • 45 mins
Raise your hand if you’ve scrolled social media and seen the terms “narcissist,” “gaslighting,” and “narcissistic abuse” thrown around like confetti. I know, me too.
It can feel like in our rush to name toxic dynamics, we’ve started pointing fingers everywhere other than to ourselves— what’s really going on?
This week I sat down with Darren Elliott to explore the pervasive cultural conversation surrounding narcissism. What we uncovered is less about calling people "bad" and more about understanding trauma, emotional immaturity, and the powerful dance of disconnection we all participate in.
If you've been wondering how to stop the cycle—in your marriage, your family, or your community—this episode is a courageous starting point.
Tune in to learn:
- How narcissism is actually a set of defenses we use to protect ourselves from disconnection. When one person starts lying or manipulating, we're more likely to "join their dance" by reacting with similar behaviors. The cycle starts when you react to their defensiveness with your own
- Narcissism is not only loud and argumentative. The calm, emotionally disconnected partner could be a narcissist too.
- How to not f*ck up your kids (spoiler alert: by repairing conflict). What percentage of the time you need to show up calm and nailing it in parenthood.
- A hidden form of emotional abuse and narcissism.
If you feel inspired please consider sharing this episode with a friend, writing a 5⭐️ review or becoming a Raising Wild Hearts Member here!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Ryann (00:00):
Hi, Darren.
Welcome to the Raising WildHearts podcast.
Darren (00:03):
Thank you so much, Ryan.
I'm really excited to be here.
Ryann (00:06):
This feels like our second episode.
I think we had a first episodebefore this actual recording,
which was awesome.
The place I really want to kickus off is that narcissism,
narcissistic abuse, narcissisticpersonality disorder, all of
these terms and words seem to bevery thrown around.
I think we have kind of a poppsychology culture going on
(00:28):
right now where everybody islike starting to use these terms
like gaslighting andnarcissist.
And it seems that in a way,it's not doing us any favors
because we're seeing these termsthrown around on social media.
We're seeing them thrown aroundin relationships.
We're seeing them, maybe someof us thrown around in, you
know, therapy, pointing thefinger at somebody else.
(00:49):
And everybody's pointing thefinger out, is what I'm
noticing, and saying, you, youover there, you're a narcissist.
And if everybody's saying thateverybody's a narcissist, are we
all walking around just likebig narcissistic a-holes,
Darren?
Like what's going on?
Darren (01:05):
Good question.
Yeah, narcissism, the term isbeing thrown around like candy
and like an insult instead of anactual term.
It's being weaponized ratherthan understood.
Are we all narcissists?
Well, here's the thing.
When when we're operating witha narcissist, we end up joining
their dance.
In fact.
So we are we are dancing in anarcissistic culture right now,
(01:27):
and we're there's a lot ofnarcissistic things going on.
And narcissism is essentially acollection of defenses that
protects us from ourdisconnection.
So if someone is lying to youand you know they're lying to
you, you're actually more likelyto lie back to them because
they're lying anyway.
If someone is cheating you,you're more likely to cheat them
because they're cheating youfirst.
(01:48):
Well, this is actuallynarcissism.
And it's narcissism in how it'scontagious because one person's
being narcissistic,self-focused, defending, using
things against you, gaslighting.
It causes the other person overtime to join that dance as
well.
So we've we've been watching itplaying out in politics.
I mean, narcissism has beenplaying out in politics for a
(02:08):
long, long time.
It's not like that's somethingnew, but it's never been so
blatant as it is today, truly.
And narcissism, it's um, firstof all, it's not a bad word.
It is used as a bad word now.
Yes, that's true.
But it was a word that Freudused to describe the traits of
children, actually.
Not an insult that he wouldhurl at adults.
(02:30):
It was to describe the childishprocesses that children grow
out of.
And when we're children, youknow, we come into the world
with our little eyes and earsand nose and mouth and our
little senses, and we all weknow is but what we see around
us.
So at first the world feelslike it revolves around us.
We don't we don't have thisfeeling of this big wide world
out there.
(02:50):
It's just, you know, mommy anddaddy come into my picture and
everything's revolving aroundme.
That's one of the things thatwe're meant to grow out of, and
not everyone does.
The more we expand our world,the less narcissistic it's gonna
be.
Because diversity of experienceis really actually good.
But going back to the childishtraits, children lack empathy.
And that's that's normal forchildren.
(03:12):
They're not a dysfunctionalchild to lack empathy.
We have to teach the empathy tothe child.
In fact, it's a it's a higherlevel emotional skill.
We humans were not bornfinished.
We're born very, veryunfinished.
And so the finishing jobhappens after we're born, and it
happens with mostly our familywho we're with.
It happens with therelationships that we have with
(03:33):
our mom and our dad and thepeople around us.
And really, we want to keepthat emotional growth going.
So it's up to us to all befinishing our brain in positive
ways and growing out ofnarcissism.
And that comes with havingparents who feel with us, in
fact, or caregivers who are ableto feel with us in our emotions
and to make our emotions feelsafe.
(03:54):
Also, the types ofrelationships that are modeled
around us profoundly impact howwe end up having relationships
later in life.
It's it's not that narcissismcan't change, it's that people
do not recognize they need to.
That's that's why a narcissistalmost never comes in for
therapy because they are inblame, blame, blame, blame,
(04:14):
blame, blame instead of takingaccountability.
Ryann (04:17):
One of the things that I want to put a pin in is I heard
you say when we get into adynamic with a person who is
narcissistic or has thosetendencies or is lying and
manipulating, we are consentingto the dance with them if we
continue on with the lying andthe deceit and the manipulation.
(04:39):
And so I'm looking at it going,well, this is just like a big
circle.
If no one stops it, then itdoesn't stop.
Somebody has to say, I'mgetting off this crazy making
merry-go round.
You can stay on it or you cancome with me, but I'm out,
right?
And I think for so many of ushere on this show, we're change
(05:00):
makers, we're cycle breakers.
And we've done that a lot ofthe times from our family of
origin.
Family of origins on thislittle spinny thing, looking at
us, going like, no, come backon, come back on, right?
And like sometimes atThanksgiving, we like, you know,
put our toe back on and we getcaught up in the spinny thing
and right.
But how do we stop the cycle?
(05:21):
Whether this is with a toxiccoworker or with a toxic family
member?
How do we have enough courageand strength to look within and
to say, no, I'm gonna operatewith integrity.
I'm not gonna lie, and nothingis worth it.
Darren (05:36):
We need to stop the cycle for ourselves with
boundaries.
Narcissism is built upon atraumatized worldview.
And when I work with someone inthat, we're working on their
worldview as part of the healingbecause they really do believe,
they really do have a me versusyou orientation, an us versus
them orientation.
And that is part of what'swrong with that's what is going
(05:58):
wrong.
And it's it's the feeling thatI'm right and you are wrong,
those polarized responses, butalso that you know, we are good
and they are bad.
That is a traumatizedworldview.
And it's it's happening with alot of churches, in fact, where
they they have the belief likewe're good here, but out there
no.
Out there they're bad, butwe're good in here, but don't
(06:18):
trust out there a big evilworld.
The belief that others is evilis a common belief, but it's
also a toxic belief.
The belief that others is eviland has enabled abuse through
the centuries, and it enablesabuse today.
But it also, if I think someonewho's, for example, a
non-Christian is evil, thatcauses fear.
(06:41):
It causes it because it causesme to think, well, they might do
bad things if they're evil.
And when I feel fear, that turnit actually turns down my
empathy.
And actually, when I turn downmy empathy, I turn down my care,
my ability to love.
And in fact, I can dehumanizepeople because I think they're
evil.
And that happened, I I'm I'm uphere in Canada, so I'm I'm
(07:02):
neither Democrat nor Republican.
We're almost all in the middle.
But referring to Canada becauseup here, when we were first
establishing the colonialism uphere, we came in with Christian
ideals, with the us versus themmentality, and literally
thinking that non-Christianswere evil.
And the the original peoplehere, in fact, had very
(07:25):
connected, loving processes,most of them.
They were very much connectedto each other and to nature.
They had really democraticprocesses of living.
But we absolutely dismissedtheir lifestyles as being
heathen and savage.
And so in Canada specifically,tens of thousands of children
were removed from families andsent to residential schools.
(07:47):
Many cases not allowed to speaktheir own language.
So think about thisfive-year-old kid who's just
been suddenly plucked up fromhis community, his family.
Now he's in this school wherehe's surrounded by other kids
who he's not allowed tocommunicate with.
And when he tries to speak tohis friend, he gets hit by nuns.
Ryann (08:05):
It makes me actually want to cry because I just cannot
imagine.
Like, talk about a hill tofucking die on, you know, like I
just can't imagine the thoughtprocess that would make that
think.
That's okay.
That sounds normal.
What?
Darren (08:22):
Like the children died from cruelty.
Ryann (08:24):
Yeah.
Darren (08:25):
Just even from emotional abuse, children died.
There's a you're I don't know,you'd probably be familiar with
the the orange shirt day.
Every child matters is whatorange shirt day is about.
And it came from a story of awoman who was herself sent to
residential school.
And the day she was sent toresidential school, her
(08:47):
grandmother gave her a specialorange shirt for her first day
at residential school becausethey didn't realize how evil and
corrupt, in fact, the place isthey were going.
And the first thing that theyhappened to them when they
arrived to this residentialschool, apart from not even
being able to speak, was thatshirt from grandma was taken
(09:08):
away, never to be seen again.
And taking away, in fact, theonly connection they had to
home.
Children were separated fromtheir families, eventually
couldn't even speak their ownlanguage, and then dropped back
into communities absolutelytraumatized, not even able to
communicate with their families.
Ryann (09:24):
What time frame was this?
Is it to just it wasn't a longtime?
That's insane.
Darren (09:33):
That's crazy.
The 60s scoop.
If you want to, if anyone'scurious about it, you call it
the 60s scoop.
And that was where they werescooping up all the kids
thinking they were saving themfrom their families when they
were essentially entirelytraumatizing them.
So I bring that up becausewe're dealing with a lot of
trauma today.
And trauma, what I havediscovered in my work is when
(09:54):
you have a traumatizedgeneration above you.
So they have, for example,complex post-traumatic stress
disorder.
So imagine granddad came backfrom war.
He's traumatized, but he'sexpected to be happy.
Aren't you happy to be home?
Oh, isn't it wonderful you'rehome?
Oh, yes, we're also happy.
He was traumatized.
He was pretending to be happy,but he was traumatized usually
(10:16):
in very, very many cases.
Trauma wasn't understood.
And what would that look like?
It would look like havingtrauma responses in his body.
It would look like him beinganxious and trying to not be
anxious when he's feelinganxious.
It would look like him beingupset and trying not to be upset
when he's upset.
So this can go different ways.
One, many of them learn to notfeel their emotions because
(10:37):
their emotions were just too bigand too nasty and too horrible.
And they learned todisassociate from their
emotions.
And that the keep calm carryon, which they had to do in the
UK when you're being bombedevery day.
You can't literally bepanicking all the time.
You won't be able to getthrough.
But that was meant for wartime.
That was only meant forwartime.
We are meant to feel all of ourfeelings and them not feel
(10:58):
dangerous for us so that we canexpress them with each other and
feel them with each other.
And there are there are moralcompass.
But a whole generation reallyhad the experience of learning
to either not feel theirfeelings or to be overtly
abusive.
Being a dad who's explosive,who and at the very least,
unable to resonate with theirkids.
(11:19):
So the ones who really, youknow, were being great dads, the
kid would come to them crying.
They wouldn't be able to crywith their kid.
You know, they don't go tosadness.
So they're not going to go tosadness with their kid either.
So they'll they'll try to fixit.
Oh, don't be sad.
It's okay.
It'll be fine tomorrow.
But there's no feeling with.
And that feeling with is theempathy.
And correction doesn't helpthem become emotionally mature.
(11:43):
Here's the thing narcissism isemotional immature processes.
And we don't get good at themby not doing them.
I know it's a shock for some.
You don't get good at soccer bynot playing soccer either,
Ryan.
And it's just like you don'tget good at that when men are
not feeling their emotions,because and then they taught the
next generation, then that'swhat you're supposed to do.
(12:04):
To be a man means to not feelyour emotions.
It became like a this is whatit means to be a man.
I work with couples.
And even when there's notnarcissism involved, the most
common issue I see with coupleswhen it's when it's a woman and
a man is the woman comes andshe's she's she's like, he's a
nice guy.
He he goes to work, he helpswith the kids.
(12:26):
Sometimes he loads thedishwasher, but I feel so alone.
I feel so alone.
And the guy's sitting there islike, I have no idea.
I do everything I'm supposed todo.
She goes on, blah, blah, blah,blah, blah, blah, blah.
I don't know what she's talkingabout.
What I'm seeing is men who areemotionally disconnected from
their emotions because they weretaught they're supposed to be.
And then their partners areemotionally alone because they
(12:50):
are emotionally alone.
And that's just not the wayit's meant to be.
So if your partner's crying andyou're not able to be sad with
them, they're emotionally alone.
If you don't go to sadness, youdon't go to sadness with others
either.
And that's lack of empathy.
If you don't let yourself getupset, then you don't get upset
with others either, and that'slack of empathy.
So they'll have a fight withthe partner and the partner's
(13:10):
getting upset and they're juststaying neutral and calm.
And the partner gets more andmore upset and more upset
because they're staying neutraland calm.
And then finally, you know,eventually they'll be finished
with it and whatever.
And then they think, isn't thatfinished?
And we already talk about that.
Ryann (13:24):
So who's the narcissist in that dynamic?
Because I feel like thatdynamic is so common.
So who would be the narcissist?
Darren (13:32):
The calm, disconnected one.
Really?
Okay.
Yes.
Okay.
Narcissism causes borderlinetype responses.
Okay.
It's normal to have adysregulated response if the
person around you is not joiningyou in your emotions.
And we're seeing this in a lotof families.
Because when you have ageneration that was traumatized
before, you're learning yourpatterns from your parents.
(13:54):
So dad's either super calm andcollected, and you learn not to
cry and you learn to bedisconnected from your emotions,
which causes narcissisticdefenses to take care of you
instead of regular connection.
So, because when we're notfeeling our connection with
others, we actually need to feelbetter than because we're
feeling so disconnected.
And they go with, oh, I don'tneed them anyway.
(14:14):
Oh, I'm smarter than heranyway.
She's just, she's just beinglike this.
That's devaluation, right?
Dismissing the other'sfeelings.
It causes narcissistic defenseswhen you're alone in your
emotions.
This is incredibly common.
So kids are being learned tonot feel their emotions with
each other, but also they'rewatching the lack of connection
between parents.
(14:35):
If dad's never resonating withmom and it's mom just seen as
too sensitive or overreactingsometimes, that's what I see
most often.
Certainly the reverse is trueas well.
I certainly have had thereverse true.
I don't want to say that it'salways men and women or sure.
But but patriarchy is real.
We are we are dealing with thethe results of patriarchy with
(14:56):
okay.
Ryann (14:56):
So I want to unpack this family dynamic a little bit.
Because I think that so for ushere who have partners, I have a
husband and we have three kids,10 and under.
And then everybody else herewho has a partner, they can kind
of put their self in theseshoes here of these relational
dynamics with the partnership.
And there's kids involved.
How do we, as the personlistening to this show, as the
(15:18):
person wanting to learn aboutnarcissism, learn how to take
some personal responsibility andwhat part they're playing,
whether they're consenting tothe dance or not, or you know,
really starting to come intotheir own power?
How do we protect our childrenin a situation like this?
Like what is kind of the go-tofor protection or modeling?
(15:42):
Is it just empathy?
Is there more there?
Like, what is it?
Tell us how to not fuck up ourkids, basically.
Darren (15:50):
So um when it comes to parenting, we need we we can get
it right sometimes.
We we need to get it right 70%of the time for the kids to be
okay.
So that there's 30% of the timewhere we get it absolutely
wrong.
Totally.
We need to be modeling repair.
Yes, we're gonna be a jerksometimes.
(16:10):
Even if we're well-intentionedand really sweet, we might get
pushed to the edge because thishas happened and this has
happened and this has happened,and you you say something real
mean to your kid, you know,you're you do, or you give a
punishment that you regrethaving given because you're
like, oh my gosh, that wasreally over severe.
I was very upset when I didthat.
Don't double down.
Come back to your child andsay, you know what?
(16:31):
I was really upset this morningand I grounded you for three
weeks.
And now that I'm thinking aboutit, grounding you for three
weeks is a little too severe.
I just want you to know thatit's not okay to hit your
sister.
So that's that's one of thethings is coming back for
repair, making sure that we donot devaluate the child or the
(16:52):
kid rather than the behavior,because that is how I work with
narcissism as well.
When I have a narcissistic dadcome in, for example, we're all
against the narcissism, we'renot against the dad.
We're all against the traitsthat are pushing people apart,
and we're not against theperson.
And we all have to be on a teamabout this because them not
(17:12):
being on a team is the wholecrux.
So when it comes to correctingchildren, for example, little
Johnny heats hit Sally in thehead with his school bag.
And mom's like, bad boy, gointo your room.
That that's that's not gonnafix anything.
So we need to address thebehavior specifically so that
we're not just shaming the childand sending them away to sit in
(17:34):
shame, which is emotion thatthat they will end up having
defenses against.
And that is where we teachempathy as well.
That's where we take and stop.
And first, first of all, wehave them calm down.
We have them both calm down.
And then that that's ateachable moment.
Now imagine how you would feelif you were sitting there and
(17:55):
you're you're you're doing yourthing and all of a sudden a
great big bag hits you on thehead.
Like we're meant, we need totalk them into the scenarios so
they're allowing themselves tounderstand the impact of what
they're doing, not just tellthem they're bad and go to your
room.
So that is how we're learningempathy.
We need to be coaching themthrough it.
And if we're not coaching themthrough it, they may not get
(18:17):
there.
So if we're doubled down as afamily, and you know, mom and
dad are two individuals who arestrong alone, we're not going to
be able to do that.
I have seen individualistictherapy make narcissism worse.
And I have seen individualistictherapy make families worse
because it literally taughteveryone to be happy by
themselves instead of working onthe relational skills between
(18:38):
them.
So, in the case of a narcissistand their and their partner,
and the partner's literallyrevolving around the narcissist,
because that's what ends uphappening.
When someone's suffering fromnarcissism, they're not taking
responsibility for their ownemotions.
So you end up takingresponsibility for them instead.
And what that looks like is aslong as he's in a good mood,
(18:59):
we're gonna have a great day.
That that's what it looks likeexactly.
Wow.
And that's so common.
That is so common.
Because if they're in a goodmood, they're gonna, they're
gonna be, they're gonna be nice,they're gonna be kind, they're
gonna, you know, everything'sgonna go well.
But if something doesn't gotheir way, they're gonna be
grumpy, they're gonna, they'regonna be annoying, or they're
(19:20):
gonna be cold, or they're gonnadetach.
That's narcissism, in fact.
And it's um it's invisibleemotional manipulation that is
extremely common.
It's um, I often tell anarcissistic parent, however
you're treating your partner,your kid is likely to be treated
like that in the future, or totreat their partner like that.
Ryann (19:40):
Yeah.
Darren (19:41):
So, you know, because because they always think their
partner, they either go into twodifferent places.
Here's another thing aboutnarcissism people don't
understand.
There's a narcissistic split,which means we have this the
positive version of ourselvesthat are able to join others and
feel your your joy and have funand have a great time together,
and it's all wonderful.
But then there's this also thisnegative part of us.
(20:03):
And we all have we all havepositive and negative, but in
the case of narcissism, they'remore divided.
So there's a lack of objectconstancy, and that is one of
the childish processes thatdoesn't get evolved out of the
ability to hold two ideas trueat the same time.
So if your kid's four years oldand they're mad at you, they're
like, You're bad, mommy.
I hate you.
(20:23):
You're bad, bad.
Ryann (20:27):
You're the worst mom.
Darren (20:28):
And that's normal for that age, and it's okay.
And you know, kids arenarcissistic and they actually
need to be able to benarcissistic and coached out of
it rather than just don't benarcissistic.
Yes, don't be selfish, don't bemean.
They need to slowly learn thatwith coaching.
Over time, we recognize whenI'm angry that I'm still able to
remember I'm angry at, and thisis the person I love, and this
(20:51):
is the person who loves me.
So I'm able to hold my angertogether because I'm I'm
remembering at the same timethat, and I love this person so
much, and I'm really angry atthem.
A narcissist can't do that.
They don't have that.
When they're angry, the otherpart disappears and now they're
just in their anger.
And that's why they willeither, one, they'll either
launch into attack because theythink you deserve it.
(21:12):
An attack might look likedevaluing, name-calling,
gaslighting, or they'll bepassive aggressive because
they've learned to pretendthey're happy when they're not.
They've learned to keep thatfake up.
So now they're pretending to befriendly, but underneath
they're like, oh, I'll get youlater.
I'll get you later.
And they're plotting littlerevengeful things and vengeance.
The traits that we call sinsare all negative emotional
(21:35):
traits that we should avoid andshould not be nurturing.
Things like jealousy andresentment, contempt, envy,
these vengeance.
These are all negative energytraits that that suck us into
living in hell, basically, youknow?
Yeah.
Versus living in love andkindness and connection.
Fear divides us.
I mean, that that's a that's abig part of what's going wrong
(21:56):
today is the fear has ramped up.
And fear is coming from alldirections on Americans right
now.
It's it's not just coming fromone direction, it's coming some
from so many directions.
And some of it's real and someof it's not real.
And some of it's beenweaponized.
And that's that's a big part ofwhat I'm working on right now,
is Americans are a bunch ofAmericans.
(22:19):
First, the division of usversus them, it's not really
real.
There's there's such a strongthe blue and the red as if
they're two separate groups ofhumans.
It's like we're purple, people.
Ryann (22:31):
We're purple, we're purple.
Darren (22:35):
It's it's it's it's uh, you know, it's it's a it's uh
narrow-minded.
It's a very narrow view of whopeople are.
It's yeah, it's a veryAmericans want to love each
other.
Most most of us people justwant to get on in life and have
good lives and to have friendlyrelationships and to enjoy their
meals and to enjoy their lifeand to most people just want the
(22:55):
same thing, you know?
But a narcissist thinks othersare out to get them.
A narcissist thinks they'regonna cheat me, so I'm gonna
cheat them first.
Those are narcissisticviewpoints and we're we're we're
living in them right now.
Ryann (23:08):
Yeah.
Darren (23:09):
If I experience my gender and my sexuality in a
heteronormative way, forexample, if I'm a man born as a
man and I find myself attractedto women, if I'm not able to
recognize other people might nothave this same experience in
their bodies that I have, thatcauses it causes fear.
But it's it's alsonarcissistic.
Why would you assume everyoneelse has the same feeling in
(23:32):
their body about how they feelabout themselves as you do?
Ryann (23:35):
Why do we assume that?
Why why do we assume thateveryone has the same experience
as us?
Is it just because of the waywe're raised?
Because I know a lot of us weretold to stop crying, go to your
room, bad girl, bad boy, and wewere that was how we were
raised.
Like now I think our generationhas a little bit of a hold on
(23:55):
it, right?
I focus on that was a reallybad choice, you know?
And uh when my literally almostfour-year-old this morning
said, Mommy, you're the worst.
I hate you.
It got down to his level and Isaid, No, I'm not, Nash.
I love you.
Don't say that to me.
And I, you know, anyway, thewhole point is I think we have a
(24:16):
better handle on it.
So why can't we understand likehow somebody else is feeling?
Or like, should I have said,like, hey, that really hurts my
feelings when I said that.
But honestly, it didn't hurt myfeelings because he's a ch he's
a three-year-old and I'm moremature than I know that it's not
true.
Darren (24:30):
Yes, and if the narcissistic father would fight
against that, possibly.
Like how?
You say such a mean thing tome.
You can't say you hate yourfather.
Go to your room.
Yeah.
It's um, but you you know, therecognition is wow, you must be
really mad at me that you saidthat.
Ryann (24:48):
Yes.
Darren (24:48):
I guess, I guess you're really, really angry.
You must be really mad.
Yep.
It's and it's it's it's andit's not nice to say you don't
love mummy.
You forget that right now, butin fact, we love each other.
You know, just a littlereminder that in this moment
you're not feeling it.
You're just feeling the hate.
Because kids say kids do havethe split that I'm referring to.
In fact, when they're happy,everything's wonderful.
(25:11):
And when they're grumpy, tired,everything's bad.
You know, and it swings quick.
It is they need to be wellrested, you know, they that and
well fed because hangry can takethem over there too.
Squinch your eyes when you'relistening to the Oval Office,
you will hear an angryfive-year-old devaluing others,
blaming others, gaslighting,literally in that that angry
(25:33):
five-year-old stuck self.
That that becomes a place wherepeople live.
Ryann (25:38):
Why have we accepted this?
Like, why have we said this isokay?
Because where we are today as aculture, I think from where I'm
standing, regardless of who'sin office, why are we consenting
to this dance?
Why are more of us not saying,nope, we're not doing this?
Darren (25:57):
Well, part of it is is the narcissistic worldview.
That's part of it.
Truly believing that the othersare lying when they are not.
Ryann (26:04):
Okay.
Darren (26:05):
So that I will lie as well because they're lying
anyway.
Ryann (26:08):
Okay.
Darren (26:09):
So Okay.
Ryann (26:10):
So that makes sense.
Darren (26:11):
Because we saw that a lot.
We saw that, you know, yeah,assuming others are cheating
enables me to cheat.
Assuming like all those, it'sjust a it's just a traumatized
worldview that needs healing,honestly.
And it's emotional immaturity.
Ryann (26:25):
Right.
unknown (26:26):
Right.
Darren (26:26):
And if that's what dad looked like, if dad was
emotionally immature with CPTSD,because it looks almost the
same, um, then we're not goingto notice it in the president
too much.
It's like, oh yeah, he's kindof like dad.
Oh, it's just sort of like AuntSally.
Like, you know, always alwaysjust saying what he says, just
doing what he does, you know.
Oh, don't listen to him.
As the rest of the worldwatched that become a role
(26:49):
model, it has been horrific towatch.
Much of the world has beenwatching a slow motion train
wreck since really slow motiongoing down fear, going down
fear, going down fear, goingdown fear.
America's on a fear pass of nottrusting each other or being
afraid of each other.
And, you know, right now, I'mjust hoping this can be the
bottom.
(27:09):
Let's make right now thebottom.
Let's not keep going down thefear path.
And right now, everything hascome up.
Now we can see very clearly,oh, racism is still here with us
very strongly.
You know what?
Racism is a trauma response inyour body towards someone's
race.
And that needs to be dealt withrather than propagated.
Fear of others.
(27:30):
We're seeing what fear ofothers is doing right now.
You know, we humans, we're partof nature.
Diversity is a natural part ofnature.
We are a part of nature, anddiversity is a natural part of
our species.
Ryann (27:43):
Right.
Darren (27:43):
The fear, the fear of diversity is one of the
scapegoating things that'sthat's causing fear and division
now.
In 2016, I spent three monthsin Arkansas, and at the time,
Canada was was rewriting somelaws to make sure that trans
(28:04):
people were protected as humanrights because they're humans.
So they hadn't been singled outyet in 2016.
So our legislation was singlingout to make sure trans people
had the same rights as everybodyelse because they're humans.
And what I heard daily inArkansas, I heard it again and
again and again, was theabomination up in Canada where
(28:28):
they are forcing the values oftranssexuals onto their entire
population.
I don't know if you can hearthe twisting and corruption of
the actual facts.
There was no forcing oftranssexual values on anyone.
There was these humans, whichhappen to make one in a hundred
humans, are being given rightsso that they're safe from hate.
(28:53):
So they can't be fired for howthey experience themselves in
their body.
So they so they can't beevicted for how they feel
experience themselves in theirbody, because they're just a
part of diversity.
And the fear and the rhetoricand the made-up ridiculousness
that trans people are dangerous,that they, you know, they want
to use their the the woman'sbathroom for some kind of evil
(29:16):
thing.
They just don't want to getbeat up in the men's bathroom.
That's really all that's goingon there.
But do you But they're tryingto live their lives, you know?
Ryann (29:23):
Like when you say that, I'm going, who's the person
who's beating somebody up in thebathroom?
Do you know what I'm saying?
Like, I, and we talked aboutthis before we hit record, is
that there's such aresponsibility at the local
level, at the home level, at theneighborhood level, at the
community level to grow ourchildren in a way that
(29:46):
everybody's kind.
Like it all starts at home.
And so I'm going like, is thisa political problem or is this a
culture problem?
Is this a humanity problem thatpeople are beating people up
who don't look like them or whodon't think?
Like them.
Like to me, that's where Ialways go.
And that's why politics, that'swhy I honestly really like opt
(30:08):
out.
I'm like, how about we start agrassroots movement of growing
up our kids in a loving way sothat nobody goes up and hits
somebody for being differentthan them?
Like, to me, like that's theproblem, you know?
Darren (30:26):
That is the problem.
Things have been used againstus.
For example, all the sexualityfears and the gender identity
fears.
It's not contagious.
It is not contagious.
Your child is not more or lesslikely to become gay or trans
because of knowing someone who'sgay or trans.
They're not more or less likelyto become gay or trans from
(30:46):
having seen it on television orfrom watching Rupal's Dragon
Race.
There's absolutely nocorrelation there.
But there is a really highsuicidality rate if kids are
hiding because they're so afraidto let anyone know that they're
experiencing their world as gayor trans.
And that causes mental healthissues.
Absolutely.
(31:06):
And I I want to bring this upbecause of because I'm working
with narcissism, and because themain problem that happens is
people don't recognize they'resuffering from narcissism, so
they never get help.
It's always their problem,right?
When I'm working with a couple,the guy's always shocked to
realize, like, in fact, sir,what I'm watching in front of
me.
She's lobbing this over andyou're twisting it and sending
(31:29):
it back.
And then she's trying to sendyou another ball, and then
you're twisting it and sendingit back.
And he's like, What?
Like, yeah, you're living in analternate reality where you're
filtering her.
Ryann (31:37):
If someone's wondering, am I a narcissist?
What would you tell them?
Because I think you were aboutto say, like, that everybody's,
you know, putting off theresponsibility on somebody else.
But what if everybody thought,like, huh, what part am I
playing in this?
Am I a narcissist?
Darren (31:51):
We need to be able to take accountability for our
impact on others.
And because a narcissistdoesn't tend to recognize
themselves, they don't realizethey have any problem because
they've they've doubled downagainst feeling negative
emotions.
So if you're not avoidingnegative emotions, you're also
avoiding those feelings of guiltthat actually drive your moral
compass to realize I hurtsomeone.
Ryann (32:13):
I see.
Darren (32:14):
You're avoid you're you're not able to feel that.
They're doubling down against,like, oh, you're just being
sensitive.
Instead of actually taking inthat I just hurt my wife's
feelings and now she's crying,they don't allow themselves to
feel with that feeling becauseit's not a feeling they go to.
And so they make it into yourfault.
Ryann (32:30):
We're all just asking to be met halfway.
Like, here I am in my humanity,feeling what I feel,
experiencing what I'mspiriencing.
Can you meet me halfway?
Right?
Darren (32:41):
Exactly.
So because of because becausewaking up is is such a hard,
difficult hard thing.
I'm an embodiment actor fromfrom university days.
So I I've created a characterwho embodies being a recovering
narcissist.
And also because drag is underattack right now.
My my character is a dragcharacter called Doreen.
(33:04):
And Doreen is a recoveringnarcissist.
And she shares openly about herinner experience in a way that
when people hear her, they'renot defended.
They're just listening to hermake fun of her own narcissism.
But I've I've already talked topeople who have woken up to
recognizing that they'reactually like Doreen.
And that's the whole point ofDoreen is that she's showing
(33:26):
them not only this is what'sgoing on for you, because that's
what I do with clients.
You know, a client comes in andthey they think they might be a
narcissist.
Well, I end up in myconversation with them because I
know they're guarded andthey're not telling me actually
what's going on.
I'm guessing, are you thinkingthis right now?
When I said this, did you feellike that?
When I said that, did you feellike this?
(33:46):
And I make enough guesses thatthey actually realize, like,
okay, okay, you can see behindthe screen.
And then they let me in behindthe screen.
And then it's it's like I'm thefirst person in their inner
circle ever, actually, in somecases, because I'm already, I'm
already seeing the processesthat are going on and I'm not
judging them for it.
Narcissism isn't an evil word,these are emotionally immature
(34:09):
processes.
And growing up emotionally isactually the answer.
And we we don't grow upemotionally by not feeling our
feelings, especially men don'tget good at emotions by not
feeling their emotions.
It keeps emotional immaturityruling.
We need to be able to feel ouremotions with each other and not
feel them as dangerous, and andto be able to do this with our
(34:32):
neighbors and our friends andour families.
And that is the work.
Ryann (34:36):
Yeah.
Are there narcissistic womentoo?
Because we've talked a lotabout men.
Yes.
Is there a stat?
How is it split?
Is it like 50-50 or is theremore?
Darren (34:46):
It's more 50-50.
I think the stat is liketwo-thirds men, one-third women.
Ryann (34:50):
So it's less in women.
Why do you think that is?
Darren (34:52):
Because the traits that we've decided are feminine are
the opposite of narcissism.
It it's um Okay.
So we learn to communicate andand eventually we're we learned
we learned to feel with eachother.
So you come to me crying and Ifeel your sadness with my own
sadness.
Or you come to me excited and Ijoin your excitement.
(35:13):
Someone who's sufferingnarcissism is able to join the
positive ones, but not thenegative ones.
Ryann (35:18):
I see.
Darren (35:20):
So we we need to be able to feel in with this full range
of emotions.
Women do that more.
Ryann (35:24):
Yeah.
Darren (35:25):
Because for we're not socialized out of feeling.
So many men were taught not tofeel by their dads.
Right.
They were just taught to be aman means to be stoic and not
get upset or to not get but thatcauses a lot of men to only be
in touch with anger and out oftouch with all the other things.
Well, when it comes to negativeemotions, right?
They'll you know they'll havefun and do all the good things,
(35:47):
but sure.
They might avoid loneliness,they might avoid um, you know,
the sadness.
Ryann (35:53):
Sadness, frustration, overwhelm, even maybe.
Why does it seem likenarcissists have a false sense
of pride, like an overlyinflated ego, but yet they're
feeling probably pretty smalland scared inside, like that
five-year-old that youreferenced.
Why can't they be humble?
Why do they have to be likeproud and just like stoic, like
(36:14):
you said?
Darren (36:15):
Yeah, that's one of the defenses.
A narcissist is living in astate of disconnection, not
fully connected with others.
And when we are in adisconnection, we need
narcissistic defenses to be okaywith that.
And part of that often lookslike, oh, I don't need them
anyway.
Oh, I'm smarter than them.
Almost everything is in shadesof gray.
The correct or incorrect, thegood and the bad, the right and
(36:38):
the wrong, the white and black,these are all polarized
responses.
And that's that's part ofwhat's going wrong.
Ryann (36:44):
I think as parents, we have a really strong
responsibility to help our kidsfeel our feelings.
And honestly, like the goodnews and the bad news is that it
starts with us.
Like, if I can't have a tantrummyself and cry on the floor
when I'm really sad or raging orhealing from something in my
past, then how am I gonna bepresent for my toddler when he's
(37:06):
having a tantrum or for mytween when she's arguing with me
because she disagrees with me?
I mean, you don't, I mean, youdon't have to agree with me just
because I birthed you.
Like, you don't have to see theway I see with every single
thing.
Yes, are there boundaries?
Yes, are there expectations?
Of course there are.
And also, like, there has to besome room for us as parents and
(37:29):
leaders, really, to allow foranother point of view, a hard
emotional experience.
Like we get to allow that.
Darren (37:38):
Yes.
And we we need to model dealingwith our emotions and feeling
with our emotions because there,there's it's not the same to
not feel your emotions versus tofeel your emotions and convey
it in a way that's healthy.
I can be extremely angry atyou.
Doesn't mean I'm launching intoyelling at you, doesn't mean
I'm devaluing you, doesn't meanI'm calling you stupid, doesn't
(38:01):
mean I need to raise my voice,or it doesn't mean I need to
walk away and give you the coldsilent treatment, which is also
a form of abuse, actually.
Um that's a common, common formof abuse.
And I want to point that outjust while we're on the topic.
You know, if you're it'sneglect, but yeah, that it's
stonewalling.
That's a common one ofnarcissism.
When they're angry at you, thatthey'll they'll treat you like
(38:23):
you're not there or they're nottalking to you, or you know,
that's devaluation in thatmoment.
You don't deserve my attention,you know.
And the person on the otherside does feel devalued and does
feel like they don't meananything to them and does feel
worthless.
It's it's abusive, in fact.
We're meant to feel our angryand and learn how to convey
that.
(38:43):
Be like, I am so angry at youright now, I am leaving the
house and I will be back whenI'm calmer.
It's not that we need to beacting out in the moment that
we're super angry.
No, that's not the time to makeany decision.
Because when we're angry orafraid, it's turning off big
hunks of our brain.
So you're not fully with us.
People do and say things whenthey're angry that they do not
(39:04):
mean, but it still has impact.
And that's where that's whereit goes very wrong for a lot of
narcissists.
And I can tell you, I came intothis topic very honestly.
I came from a narcissisticfamily system.
So it's just something I'veadapted to.
Ryann (39:20):
Your work in the world is so important.
I find that you're not beingjudgmental of somebody who has
narcissistic tendencies.
Like if somebody's like, do Ihave those tendencies and
they're listening to this, Idon't see them feeling judged or
shamed or anything like that.
I feel like you come to it witha lightness, and that's so
(39:42):
helpful for me, and I know foreverybody listening.
Whoever wants to come find youand follow you and get your
book.
Oh my gosh, I love the title,The United States of
Disconnection (39:51):
How narcissistic power is dividing our homes,
politics, and culture, and whatwe can do about it.
That is such an amazing title.
As we're recording this, it'sbeen out in the world for two
weeks.
Where do we get your book?
Where do we learn about thenarcissism recovery project and
love loops also?
Darren (40:08):
It's available on Amazon.
That's where you can get ittoday.
You could type in the UnitedStates of Disconnection.
It's it's the first bookbecause in therapy, we
understand we need to understandand name what is happening is
the first step in change.
We can't have change just bywanting change.
We need to first understand, ohgosh, this is what's happening
now.
The United States ofDisconnection is about waking up
(40:29):
to what is right now so thatchange is possible, so we can
make a different choice.
Since this book came out, it'sso big.
I'm actually writing a smallerversion of it that'll be um a
little more palatable.
But I'm also working on anotherbook called Project 2035: Love
versus Fear, the choice is ours.
And trust has been broken.
(40:49):
Trust it takes developing,right?
If we're just afraid of ourneighbor and we never talk to
them, we're not going to developtrust with them either.
We need you the the the changehere is reaching for your
neighbors and introducingyourself if you didn't already.
You know, that's where thechange happens.
The change happens from talkingto the person down the street
instead of walking by withfeeling afraid of them.
So loveloops.
(41:11):
We're supposed to be leaning oneach other.
We're supposed to be supportingeach other.
And right now we're tearingeach other apart.
So if everyone reached fortheir neighbors to heal that
relationship, America could comeback together and go down a
different path and get off thefear path.
Ryann (41:32):
Yeah, I so agree with you.
That's why I always say we canchange the world by starting at
home.
I do believe that it starts athome and then it starts in our
neighborhood, and then it startsin our school and our
communities, and it gets biggerfrom there.
I really believe the power ofthe ripple effect, and I know
that's what you are doing withyour work as well.
So thank you for that.
I'm gonna ask you the threequestions I ask everybody at the
(41:54):
end of the interview now, kindof like rapid fire style.
And the first question is what,if anything, are you reading
right now?
Darren (42:01):
Complex PTSD workbook.
This is something I use, Irefer to quite a lot with
clients, and I'm um, because weall need to be on a healing
path.
And this is one of the things.
Complex PTSD looks likenarcissism and it looks a lot
like it.
And we all we all need to bereaching for personal growth
things.
In 2025, to feel anxious anddepressed is a natural reaction
(42:24):
to the world.
So we need to be on a personalgrowth journey to not be anxious
and depressed.
Ryann (42:29):
The second question I have for you is what's bringing
you joy today?
Darren (42:33):
What's bringing me joy?
Well, the first thing that cameto my mind was my dog that's
under my feet.
Ryann (42:41):
Pets are like that.
Darren (42:43):
I I feel joy connecting to my passion.
Honestly, being here andtalking about narcissism, which
is a topic people say is somorbid and nasty.
And you know, even therapistsare like, oh, narcissism.
It's like, but it's my passionsubject because it it has so
much possibility when weunderstand it.
You know, I feel the hope whenI'm talking about it because I
can see this path that we're noton right now that we can be on.
(43:06):
And I feel excited for it.
Like I can, because I seepeople change in my practice.
I see people choosing love overfear.
I see people choosing personalgrowth.
I can see the potential.
So I feel I do feel so excitedhere and I do feel joy in this
subject.
Ryann (43:20):
Amazing.
It comes out.
You're very passionate, andthat's awesome.
Yes.
And then the last question Ihave for you, Darren, is who or
what has taught you the most?
Darren (43:30):
Who or what has taught me the most?
Oh my gosh.
My relationships have taught methe most, I guess.
That would be true.
I I can say church taught me alot.
I'm not a I'm not a churchattender, in fact, but it did
teach me how love and connectionand kindness are where we
thrive.
You know, I I came tounderstand like they are places
(43:50):
where we're taught to be safeand and where we're taught to
share what's going on for us ina lot of cases.
And that is what we're meant tobe like with others.
We're meant to lean on eachother, we're meant to share
vulnerably together.
And a lot of people havelearned that at church.
So, you know, come in and it'slike, what's going on for you?
And you say what's going on foryou.
And then the person'slistening, that's called active
listening.
And then they're repeating whatyou said, that's called active
(44:12):
listening, and then they'reshowing compassion.
Jesus, please bring some joy toDarren's heart.
He's so sad right now, and welove him so much.
Sharing that.
People do that at church.
Do it at home.
Do it, do it with yourneighbor.
Don't just do it at church.
Those are good things.
Churches are meant to preachlove, and when we love each
other, things go well.
(44:33):
Jesus loved everyone.
He didn't say love everyoneexcept your trans neighbor.
He washed the feet ofprostitute.
Like he loved everyone.
It was never about judging, itwas never about rejection.
There's just so much fear.
There's so much fear, and loveis the opposite of fear, but we
can't get there without thetrust and the vulnerability.
(44:53):
So practicing trust andvulnerability and connection
skills are how we get back tolove.
Ryann (44:58):
Yeah, absolutely.
Thank you so much, Darren, forthis conversation.
Darren (45:02):
Thank you so much for having me, Ryan.
I appreciate it.
Hi, Darren.
Welcome to the Raising WildHearts podcast.
Darren (00:03):
Thank you so much, Ryan.
I'm really excited to be here.
Ryann (00:06):
This feels like our second episode.
I think we had a first episodebefore this actual recording,
which was awesome.
The place I really want to kickus off is that narcissism,
narcissistic abuse, narcissisticpersonality disorder, all of
these terms and words seem to bevery thrown around.
I think we have kind of a poppsychology culture going on
(00:28):
right now where everybody islike starting to use these terms
like gaslighting andnarcissist.
And it seems that in a way,it's not doing us any favors
because we're seeing these termsthrown around on social media.
We're seeing them thrown aroundin relationships.
We're seeing them, maybe someof us thrown around in, you
know, therapy, pointing thefinger at somebody else.
(00:49):
And everybody's pointing thefinger out, is what I'm
noticing, and saying, you, youover there, you're a narcissist.
And if everybody's saying thateverybody's a narcissist, are we
all walking around just likebig narcissistic a-holes,
Darren?
Like what's going on?
Darren (01:05):
Good question.
Yeah, narcissism, the term isbeing thrown around like candy
and like an insult instead of anactual term.
It's being weaponized ratherthan understood.
Are we all narcissists?
Well, here's the thing.
When when we're operating witha narcissist, we end up joining
their dance.
In fact.
So we are we are dancing in anarcissistic culture right now,
(01:27):
and we're there's a lot ofnarcissistic things going on.
And narcissism is essentially acollection of defenses that
protects us from ourdisconnection.
So if someone is lying to youand you know they're lying to
you, you're actually more likelyto lie back to them because
they're lying anyway.
If someone is cheating you,you're more likely to cheat them
because they're cheating youfirst.
(01:48):
Well, this is actuallynarcissism.
And it's narcissism in how it'scontagious because one person's
being narcissistic,self-focused, defending, using
things against you, gaslighting.
It causes the other person overtime to join that dance as
well.
So we've we've been watching itplaying out in politics.
I mean, narcissism has beenplaying out in politics for a
(02:08):
long, long time.
It's not like that's somethingnew, but it's never been so
blatant as it is today, truly.
And narcissism, it's um, firstof all, it's not a bad word.
It is used as a bad word now.
Yes, that's true.
But it was a word that Freudused to describe the traits of
children, actually.
Not an insult that he wouldhurl at adults.
(02:30):
It was to describe the childishprocesses that children grow
out of.
And when we're children, youknow, we come into the world
with our little eyes and earsand nose and mouth and our
little senses, and we all weknow is but what we see around
us.
So at first the world feelslike it revolves around us.
We don't we don't have thisfeeling of this big wide world
out there.
(02:50):
It's just, you know, mommy anddaddy come into my picture and
everything's revolving aroundme.
That's one of the things thatwe're meant to grow out of, and
not everyone does.
The more we expand our world,the less narcissistic it's gonna
be.
Because diversity of experienceis really actually good.
But going back to the childishtraits, children lack empathy.
And that's that's normal forchildren.
(03:12):
They're not a dysfunctionalchild to lack empathy.
We have to teach the empathy tothe child.
In fact, it's a it's a higherlevel emotional skill.
We humans were not bornfinished.
We're born very, veryunfinished.
And so the finishing jobhappens after we're born, and it
happens with mostly our familywho we're with.
It happens with therelationships that we have with
(03:33):
our mom and our dad and thepeople around us.
And really, we want to keepthat emotional growth going.
So it's up to us to all befinishing our brain in positive
ways and growing out ofnarcissism.
And that comes with havingparents who feel with us, in
fact, or caregivers who are ableto feel with us in our emotions
and to make our emotions feelsafe.
(03:54):
Also, the types ofrelationships that are modeled
around us profoundly impact howwe end up having relationships
later in life.
It's it's not that narcissismcan't change, it's that people
do not recognize they need to.
That's that's why a narcissistalmost never comes in for
therapy because they are inblame, blame, blame, blame,
(04:14):
blame, blame instead of takingaccountability.
Ryann (04:17):
One of the things that I want to put a pin in is I heard
you say when we get into adynamic with a person who is
narcissistic or has thosetendencies or is lying and
manipulating, we are consentingto the dance with them if we
continue on with the lying andthe deceit and the manipulation.
(04:39):
And so I'm looking at it going,well, this is just like a big
circle.
If no one stops it, then itdoesn't stop.
Somebody has to say, I'mgetting off this crazy making
merry-go round.
You can stay on it or you cancome with me, but I'm out,
right?
And I think for so many of ushere on this show, we're change
(05:00):
makers, we're cycle breakers.
And we've done that a lot ofthe times from our family of
origin.
Family of origins on thislittle spinny thing, looking at
us, going like, no, come backon, come back on, right?
And like sometimes atThanksgiving, we like, you know,
put our toe back on and we getcaught up in the spinny thing
and right.
But how do we stop the cycle?
(05:21):
Whether this is with a toxiccoworker or with a toxic family
member?
How do we have enough courageand strength to look within and
to say, no, I'm gonna operatewith integrity.
I'm not gonna lie, and nothingis worth it.
Darren (05:36):
We need to stop the cycle for ourselves with
boundaries.
Narcissism is built upon atraumatized worldview.
And when I work with someone inthat, we're working on their
worldview as part of the healingbecause they really do believe,
they really do have a me versusyou orientation, an us versus
them orientation.
And that is part of what'swrong with that's what is going
(05:58):
wrong.
And it's it's the feeling thatI'm right and you are wrong,
those polarized responses, butalso that you know, we are good
and they are bad.
That is a traumatizedworldview.
And it's it's happening with alot of churches, in fact, where
they they have the belief likewe're good here, but out there
no.
Out there they're bad, butwe're good in here, but don't
(06:18):
trust out there a big evilworld.
The belief that others is evilis a common belief, but it's
also a toxic belief.
The belief that others is eviland has enabled abuse through
the centuries, and it enablesabuse today.
But it also, if I think someonewho's, for example, a
non-Christian is evil, thatcauses fear.
(06:41):
It causes it because it causesme to think, well, they might do
bad things if they're evil.
And when I feel fear, that turnit actually turns down my
empathy.
And actually, when I turn downmy empathy, I turn down my care,
my ability to love.
And in fact, I can dehumanizepeople because I think they're
evil.
And that happened, I I'm I'm uphere in Canada, so I'm I'm
(07:02):
neither Democrat nor Republican.
We're almost all in the middle.
But referring to Canada becauseup here, when we were first
establishing the colonialism uphere, we came in with Christian
ideals, with the us versus themmentality, and literally
thinking that non-Christianswere evil.
And the the original peoplehere, in fact, had very
(07:25):
connected, loving processes,most of them.
They were very much connectedto each other and to nature.
They had really democraticprocesses of living.
But we absolutely dismissedtheir lifestyles as being
heathen and savage.
And so in Canada specifically,tens of thousands of children
were removed from families andsent to residential schools.
(07:47):
Many cases not allowed to speaktheir own language.
So think about thisfive-year-old kid who's just
been suddenly plucked up fromhis community, his family.
Now he's in this school wherehe's surrounded by other kids
who he's not allowed tocommunicate with.
And when he tries to speak tohis friend, he gets hit by nuns.
Ryann (08:05):
It makes me actually want to cry because I just cannot
imagine.
Like, talk about a hill tofucking die on, you know, like I
just can't imagine the thoughtprocess that would make that
think.
That's okay.
That sounds normal.
What?
Darren (08:22):
Like the children died from cruelty.
Ryann (08:24):
Yeah.
Darren (08:25):
Just even from emotional abuse, children died.
There's a you're I don't know,you'd probably be familiar with
the the orange shirt day.
Every child matters is whatorange shirt day is about.
And it came from a story of awoman who was herself sent to
residential school.
And the day she was sent toresidential school, her
(08:47):
grandmother gave her a specialorange shirt for her first day
at residential school becausethey didn't realize how evil and
corrupt, in fact, the place isthey were going.
And the first thing that theyhappened to them when they
arrived to this residentialschool, apart from not even
being able to speak, was thatshirt from grandma was taken
(09:08):
away, never to be seen again.
And taking away, in fact, theonly connection they had to
home.
Children were separated fromtheir families, eventually
couldn't even speak their ownlanguage, and then dropped back
into communities absolutelytraumatized, not even able to
communicate with their families.
Ryann (09:24):
What time frame was this?
Is it to just it wasn't a longtime?
That's insane.
Darren (09:33):
That's crazy.
The 60s scoop.
If you want to, if anyone'scurious about it, you call it
the 60s scoop.
And that was where they werescooping up all the kids
thinking they were saving themfrom their families when they
were essentially entirelytraumatizing them.
So I bring that up becausewe're dealing with a lot of
trauma today.
And trauma, what I havediscovered in my work is when
(09:54):
you have a traumatizedgeneration above you.
So they have, for example,complex post-traumatic stress
disorder.
So imagine granddad came backfrom war.
He's traumatized, but he'sexpected to be happy.
Aren't you happy to be home?
Oh, isn't it wonderful you'rehome?
Oh, yes, we're also happy.
He was traumatized.
He was pretending to be happy,but he was traumatized usually
(10:16):
in very, very many cases.
Trauma wasn't understood.
And what would that look like?
It would look like havingtrauma responses in his body.
It would look like him beinganxious and trying to not be
anxious when he's feelinganxious.
It would look like him beingupset and trying not to be upset
when he's upset.
So this can go different ways.
One, many of them learn to notfeel their emotions because
(10:37):
their emotions were just too bigand too nasty and too horrible.
And they learned todisassociate from their
emotions.
And that the keep calm carryon, which they had to do in the
UK when you're being bombedevery day.
You can't literally bepanicking all the time.
You won't be able to getthrough.
But that was meant for wartime.
That was only meant forwartime.
We are meant to feel all of ourfeelings and them not feel
(10:58):
dangerous for us so that we canexpress them with each other and
feel them with each other.
And there are there are moralcompass.
But a whole generation reallyhad the experience of learning
to either not feel theirfeelings or to be overtly
abusive.
Being a dad who's explosive,who and at the very least,
unable to resonate with theirkids.
(11:19):
So the ones who really, youknow, were being great dads, the
kid would come to them crying.
They wouldn't be able to crywith their kid.
You know, they don't go tosadness.
So they're not going to go tosadness with their kid either.
So they'll they'll try to fixit.
Oh, don't be sad.
It's okay.
It'll be fine tomorrow.
But there's no feeling with.
And that feeling with is theempathy.
And correction doesn't helpthem become emotionally mature.
(11:43):
Here's the thing narcissism isemotional immature processes.
And we don't get good at themby not doing them.
I know it's a shock for some.
You don't get good at soccer bynot playing soccer either,
Ryan.
And it's just like you don'tget good at that when men are
not feeling their emotions,because and then they taught the
next generation, then that'swhat you're supposed to do.
(12:04):
To be a man means to not feelyour emotions.
It became like a this is whatit means to be a man.
I work with couples.
And even when there's notnarcissism involved, the most
common issue I see with coupleswhen it's when it's a woman and
a man is the woman comes andshe's she's she's like, he's a
nice guy.
He he goes to work, he helpswith the kids.
(12:26):
Sometimes he loads thedishwasher, but I feel so alone.
I feel so alone.
And the guy's sitting there islike, I have no idea.
I do everything I'm supposed todo.
She goes on, blah, blah, blah,blah, blah, blah, blah.
I don't know what she's talkingabout.
What I'm seeing is men who areemotionally disconnected from
their emotions because they weretaught they're supposed to be.
And then their partners areemotionally alone because they
(12:50):
are emotionally alone.
And that's just not the wayit's meant to be.
So if your partner's crying andyou're not able to be sad with
them, they're emotionally alone.
If you don't go to sadness, youdon't go to sadness with others
either.
And that's lack of empathy.
If you don't let yourself getupset, then you don't get upset
with others either, and that'slack of empathy.
So they'll have a fight withthe partner and the partner's
(13:10):
getting upset and they're juststaying neutral and calm.
And the partner gets more andmore upset and more upset
because they're staying neutraland calm.
And then finally, you know,eventually they'll be finished
with it and whatever.
And then they think, isn't thatfinished?
And we already talk about that.
Ryann (13:24):
So who's the narcissist in that dynamic?
Because I feel like thatdynamic is so common.
So who would be the narcissist?
Darren (13:32):
The calm, disconnected one.
Really?
Okay.
Yes.
Okay.
Narcissism causes borderlinetype responses.
Okay.
It's normal to have adysregulated response if the
person around you is not joiningyou in your emotions.
And we're seeing this in a lotof families.
Because when you have ageneration that was traumatized
before, you're learning yourpatterns from your parents.
(13:54):
So dad's either super calm andcollected, and you learn not to
cry and you learn to bedisconnected from your emotions,
which causes narcissisticdefenses to take care of you
instead of regular connection.
So, because when we're notfeeling our connection with
others, we actually need to feelbetter than because we're
feeling so disconnected.
And they go with, oh, I don'tneed them anyway.
(14:14):
Oh, I'm smarter than heranyway.
She's just, she's just beinglike this.
That's devaluation, right?
Dismissing the other'sfeelings.
It causes narcissistic defenseswhen you're alone in your
emotions.
This is incredibly common.
So kids are being learned tonot feel their emotions with
each other, but also they'rewatching the lack of connection
between parents.
(14:35):
If dad's never resonating withmom and it's mom just seen as
too sensitive or overreactingsometimes, that's what I see
most often.
Certainly the reverse is trueas well.
I certainly have had thereverse true.
I don't want to say that it'salways men and women or sure.
But but patriarchy is real.
We are we are dealing with thethe results of patriarchy with
(14:56):
okay.
Ryann (14:56):
So I want to unpack this family dynamic a little bit.
Because I think that so for ushere who have partners, I have a
husband and we have three kids,10 and under.
And then everybody else herewho has a partner, they can kind
of put their self in theseshoes here of these relational
dynamics with the partnership.
And there's kids involved.
How do we, as the personlistening to this show, as the
(15:18):
person wanting to learn aboutnarcissism, learn how to take
some personal responsibility andwhat part they're playing,
whether they're consenting tothe dance or not, or you know,
really starting to come intotheir own power?
How do we protect our childrenin a situation like this?
Like what is kind of the go-tofor protection or modeling?
(15:42):
Is it just empathy?
Is there more there?
Like, what is it?
Tell us how to not fuck up ourkids, basically.
Darren (15:50):
So um when it comes to parenting, we need we we can get
it right sometimes.
We we need to get it right 70%of the time for the kids to be
okay.
So that there's 30% of the timewhere we get it absolutely
wrong.
Totally.
We need to be modeling repair.
Yes, we're gonna be a jerksometimes.
(16:10):
Even if we're well-intentionedand really sweet, we might get
pushed to the edge because thishas happened and this has
happened and this has happened,and you you say something real
mean to your kid, you know,you're you do, or you give a
punishment that you regrethaving given because you're
like, oh my gosh, that wasreally over severe.
I was very upset when I didthat.
Don't double down.
Come back to your child andsay, you know what?
(16:31):
I was really upset this morningand I grounded you for three
weeks.
And now that I'm thinking aboutit, grounding you for three
weeks is a little too severe.
I just want you to know thatit's not okay to hit your
sister.
So that's that's one of thethings is coming back for
repair, making sure that we donot devaluate the child or the
(16:52):
kid rather than the behavior,because that is how I work with
narcissism as well.
When I have a narcissistic dadcome in, for example, we're all
against the narcissism, we'renot against the dad.
We're all against the traitsthat are pushing people apart,
and we're not against theperson.
And we all have to be on a teamabout this because them not
(17:12):
being on a team is the wholecrux.
So when it comes to correctingchildren, for example, little
Johnny heats hit Sally in thehead with his school bag.
And mom's like, bad boy, gointo your room.
That that's that's not gonnafix anything.
So we need to address thebehavior specifically so that
we're not just shaming the childand sending them away to sit in
(17:34):
shame, which is emotion thatthat they will end up having
defenses against.
And that is where we teachempathy as well.
That's where we take and stop.
And first, first of all, wehave them calm down.
We have them both calm down.
And then that that's ateachable moment.
Now imagine how you would feelif you were sitting there and
(17:55):
you're you're you're doing yourthing and all of a sudden a
great big bag hits you on thehead.
Like we're meant, we need totalk them into the scenarios so
they're allowing themselves tounderstand the impact of what
they're doing, not just tellthem they're bad and go to your
room.
So that is how we're learningempathy.
We need to be coaching themthrough it.
And if we're not coaching themthrough it, they may not get
(18:17):
there.
So if we're doubled down as afamily, and you know, mom and
dad are two individuals who arestrong alone, we're not going to
be able to do that.
I have seen individualistictherapy make narcissism worse.
And I have seen individualistictherapy make families worse
because it literally taughteveryone to be happy by
themselves instead of working onthe relational skills between
(18:38):
them.
So, in the case of a narcissistand their and their partner,
and the partner's literallyrevolving around the narcissist,
because that's what ends uphappening.
When someone's suffering fromnarcissism, they're not taking
responsibility for their ownemotions.
So you end up takingresponsibility for them instead.
And what that looks like is aslong as he's in a good mood,
(18:59):
we're gonna have a great day.
That that's what it looks likeexactly.
Wow.
And that's so common.
That is so common.
Because if they're in a goodmood, they're gonna, they're
gonna be, they're gonna be nice,they're gonna be kind, they're
gonna, you know, everything'sgonna go well.
But if something doesn't gotheir way, they're gonna be
grumpy, they're gonna, they'regonna be annoying, or they're
(19:20):
gonna be cold, or they're gonnadetach.
That's narcissism, in fact.
And it's um it's invisibleemotional manipulation that is
extremely common.
It's um, I often tell anarcissistic parent, however
you're treating your partner,your kid is likely to be treated
like that in the future, or totreat their partner like that.
Ryann (19:40):
Yeah.
Darren (19:41):
So, you know, because because they always think their
partner, they either go into twodifferent places.
Here's another thing aboutnarcissism people don't
understand.
There's a narcissistic split,which means we have this the
positive version of ourselvesthat are able to join others and
feel your your joy and have funand have a great time together,
and it's all wonderful.
But then there's this also thisnegative part of us.
(20:03):
And we all have we all havepositive and negative, but in
the case of narcissism, they'remore divided.
So there's a lack of objectconstancy, and that is one of
the childish processes thatdoesn't get evolved out of the
ability to hold two ideas trueat the same time.
So if your kid's four years oldand they're mad at you, they're
like, You're bad, mommy.
I hate you.
(20:23):
You're bad, bad.
Ryann (20:27):
You're the worst mom.
Darren (20:28):
And that's normal for that age, and it's okay.
And you know, kids arenarcissistic and they actually
need to be able to benarcissistic and coached out of
it rather than just don't benarcissistic.
Yes, don't be selfish, don't bemean.
They need to slowly learn thatwith coaching.
Over time, we recognize whenI'm angry that I'm still able to
remember I'm angry at, and thisis the person I love, and this
(20:51):
is the person who loves me.
So I'm able to hold my angertogether because I'm I'm
remembering at the same timethat, and I love this person so
much, and I'm really angry atthem.
A narcissist can't do that.
They don't have that.
When they're angry, the otherpart disappears and now they're
just in their anger.
And that's why they willeither, one, they'll either
launch into attack because theythink you deserve it.
(21:12):
An attack might look likedevaluing, name-calling,
gaslighting, or they'll bepassive aggressive because
they've learned to pretendthey're happy when they're not.
They've learned to keep thatfake up.
So now they're pretending to befriendly, but underneath
they're like, oh, I'll get youlater.
I'll get you later.
And they're plotting littlerevengeful things and vengeance.
The traits that we call sinsare all negative emotional
(21:35):
traits that we should avoid andshould not be nurturing.
Things like jealousy andresentment, contempt, envy,
these vengeance.
These are all negative energytraits that that suck us into
living in hell, basically, youknow?
Yeah.
Versus living in love andkindness and connection.
Fear divides us.
I mean, that that's a that's abig part of what's going wrong
(21:56):
today is the fear has ramped up.
And fear is coming from alldirections on Americans right
now.
It's it's not just coming fromone direction, it's coming some
from so many directions.
And some of it's real and someof it's not real.
And some of it's beenweaponized.
And that's that's a big part ofwhat I'm working on right now,
is Americans are a bunch ofAmericans.
(22:19):
First, the division of usversus them, it's not really
real.
There's there's such a strongthe blue and the red as if
they're two separate groups ofhumans.
It's like we're purple, people.
Ryann (22:31):
We're purple, we're purple.
Darren (22:35):
It's it's it's it's uh, you know, it's it's a it's uh
narrow-minded.
It's a very narrow view of whopeople are.
It's yeah, it's a veryAmericans want to love each
other.
Most most of us people justwant to get on in life and have
good lives and to have friendlyrelationships and to enjoy their
meals and to enjoy their lifeand to most people just want the
(22:55):
same thing, you know?
But a narcissist thinks othersare out to get them.
A narcissist thinks they'regonna cheat me, so I'm gonna
cheat them first.
Those are narcissisticviewpoints and we're we're we're
living in them right now.
Ryann (23:08):
Yeah.
Darren (23:09):
If I experience my gender and my sexuality in a
heteronormative way, forexample, if I'm a man born as a
man and I find myself attractedto women, if I'm not able to
recognize other people might nothave this same experience in
their bodies that I have, thatcauses it causes fear.
But it's it's alsonarcissistic.
Why would you assume everyoneelse has the same feeling in
(23:32):
their body about how they feelabout themselves as you do?
Ryann (23:35):
Why do we assume that?
Why why do we assume thateveryone has the same experience
as us?
Is it just because of the waywe're raised?
Because I know a lot of us weretold to stop crying, go to your
room, bad girl, bad boy, and wewere that was how we were
raised.
Like now I think our generationhas a little bit of a hold on
(23:55):
it, right?
I focus on that was a reallybad choice, you know?
And uh when my literally almostfour-year-old this morning
said, Mommy, you're the worst.
I hate you.
It got down to his level and Isaid, No, I'm not, Nash.
I love you.
Don't say that to me.
And I, you know, anyway, thewhole point is I think we have a
(24:16):
better handle on it.
So why can't we understand likehow somebody else is feeling?
Or like, should I have said,like, hey, that really hurts my
feelings when I said that.
But honestly, it didn't hurt myfeelings because he's a ch he's
a three-year-old and I'm moremature than I know that it's not
true.
Darren (24:30):
Yes, and if the narcissistic father would fight
against that, possibly.
Like how?
You say such a mean thing tome.
You can't say you hate yourfather.
Go to your room.
Yeah.
It's um, but you you know, therecognition is wow, you must be
really mad at me that you saidthat.
Ryann (24:48):
Yes.
Darren (24:48):
I guess, I guess you're really, really angry.
You must be really mad.
Yep.
It's and it's it's it's andit's not nice to say you don't
love mummy.
You forget that right now, butin fact, we love each other.
You know, just a littlereminder that in this moment
you're not feeling it.
You're just feeling the hate.
Because kids say kids do havethe split that I'm referring to.
In fact, when they're happy,everything's wonderful.
(25:11):
And when they're grumpy, tired,everything's bad.
You know, and it swings quick.
It is they need to be wellrested, you know, they that and
well fed because hangry can takethem over there too.
Squinch your eyes when you'relistening to the Oval Office,
you will hear an angryfive-year-old devaluing others,
blaming others, gaslighting,literally in that that angry
(25:33):
five-year-old stuck self.
That that becomes a place wherepeople live.
Ryann (25:38):
Why have we accepted this?
Like, why have we said this isokay?
Because where we are today as aculture, I think from where I'm
standing, regardless of who'sin office, why are we consenting
to this dance?
Why are more of us not saying,nope, we're not doing this?
Darren (25:57):
Well, part of it is is the narcissistic worldview.
That's part of it.
Truly believing that the othersare lying when they are not.
Ryann (26:04):
Okay.
Darren (26:05):
So that I will lie as well because they're lying
anyway.
Ryann (26:08):
Okay.
Darren (26:09):
So Okay.
Ryann (26:10):
So that makes sense.
Darren (26:11):
Because we saw that a lot.
We saw that, you know, yeah,assuming others are cheating
enables me to cheat.
Assuming like all those, it'sjust a it's just a traumatized
worldview that needs healing,honestly.
And it's emotional immaturity.
Ryann (26:25):
Right.
unknown (26:26):
Right.
Darren (26:26):
And if that's what dad looked like, if dad was
emotionally immature with CPTSD,because it looks almost the
same, um, then we're not goingto notice it in the president
too much.
It's like, oh yeah, he's kindof like dad.
Oh, it's just sort of like AuntSally.
Like, you know, always alwaysjust saying what he says, just
doing what he does, you know.
Oh, don't listen to him.
As the rest of the worldwatched that become a role
(26:49):
model, it has been horrific towatch.
Much of the world has beenwatching a slow motion train
wreck since really slow motiongoing down fear, going down
fear, going down fear, goingdown fear.
America's on a fear pass of nottrusting each other or being
afraid of each other.
And, you know, right now, I'mjust hoping this can be the
bottom.
(27:09):
Let's make right now thebottom.
Let's not keep going down thefear path.
And right now, everything hascome up.
Now we can see very clearly,oh, racism is still here with us
very strongly.
You know what?
Racism is a trauma response inyour body towards someone's
race.
And that needs to be dealt withrather than propagated.
Fear of others.
(27:30):
We're seeing what fear ofothers is doing right now.
You know, we humans, we're partof nature.
Diversity is a natural part ofnature.
We are a part of nature, anddiversity is a natural part of
our species.
Ryann (27:43):
Right.
Darren (27:43):
The fear, the fear of diversity is one of the
scapegoating things that'sthat's causing fear and division
now.
In 2016, I spent three monthsin Arkansas, and at the time,
Canada was was rewriting somelaws to make sure that trans
(28:04):
people were protected as humanrights because they're humans.
So they hadn't been singled outyet in 2016.
So our legislation was singlingout to make sure trans people
had the same rights as everybodyelse because they're humans.
And what I heard daily inArkansas, I heard it again and
again and again, was theabomination up in Canada where
(28:28):
they are forcing the values oftranssexuals onto their entire
population.
I don't know if you can hearthe twisting and corruption of
the actual facts.
There was no forcing oftranssexual values on anyone.
There was these humans, whichhappen to make one in a hundred
humans, are being given rightsso that they're safe from hate.
(28:53):
So they can't be fired for howthey experience themselves in
their body.
So they so they can't beevicted for how they feel
experience themselves in theirbody, because they're just a
part of diversity.
And the fear and the rhetoricand the made-up ridiculousness
that trans people are dangerous,that they, you know, they want
to use their the the woman'sbathroom for some kind of evil
(29:16):
thing.
They just don't want to getbeat up in the men's bathroom.
That's really all that's goingon there.
But do you But they're tryingto live their lives, you know?
Ryann (29:23):
Like when you say that, I'm going, who's the person
who's beating somebody up in thebathroom?
Do you know what I'm saying?
Like, I, and we talked aboutthis before we hit record, is
that there's such aresponsibility at the local
level, at the home level, at theneighborhood level, at the
community level to grow ourchildren in a way that
(29:46):
everybody's kind.
Like it all starts at home.
And so I'm going like, is thisa political problem or is this a
culture problem?
Is this a humanity problem thatpeople are beating people up
who don't look like them or whodon't think?
Like them.
Like to me, that's where Ialways go.
And that's why politics, that'swhy I honestly really like opt
(30:08):
out.
I'm like, how about we start agrassroots movement of growing
up our kids in a loving way sothat nobody goes up and hits
somebody for being differentthan them?
Like, to me, like that's theproblem, you know?
Darren (30:26):
That is the problem.
Things have been used againstus.
For example, all the sexualityfears and the gender identity
fears.
It's not contagious.
It is not contagious.
Your child is not more or lesslikely to become gay or trans
because of knowing someone who'sgay or trans.
They're not more or less likelyto become gay or trans from
(30:46):
having seen it on television orfrom watching Rupal's Dragon
Race.
There's absolutely nocorrelation there.
But there is a really highsuicidality rate if kids are
hiding because they're so afraidto let anyone know that they're
experiencing their world as gayor trans.
And that causes mental healthissues.
Absolutely.
(31:06):
And I I want to bring this upbecause of because I'm working
with narcissism, and because themain problem that happens is
people don't recognize they'resuffering from narcissism, so
they never get help.
It's always their problem,right?
When I'm working with a couple,the guy's always shocked to
realize, like, in fact, sir,what I'm watching in front of
me.
She's lobbing this over andyou're twisting it and sending
(31:29):
it back.
And then she's trying to sendyou another ball, and then
you're twisting it and sendingit back.
And he's like, What?
Like, yeah, you're living in analternate reality where you're
filtering her.
Ryann (31:37):
If someone's wondering, am I a narcissist?
What would you tell them?
Because I think you were aboutto say, like, that everybody's,
you know, putting off theresponsibility on somebody else.
But what if everybody thought,like, huh, what part am I
playing in this?
Am I a narcissist?
Darren (31:51):
We need to be able to take accountability for our
impact on others.
And because a narcissistdoesn't tend to recognize
themselves, they don't realizethey have any problem because
they've they've doubled downagainst feeling negative
emotions.
So if you're not avoidingnegative emotions, you're also
avoiding those feelings of guiltthat actually drive your moral
compass to realize I hurtsomeone.
Ryann (32:13):
I see.
Darren (32:14):
You're avoid you're you're not able to feel that.
They're doubling down against,like, oh, you're just being
sensitive.
Instead of actually taking inthat I just hurt my wife's
feelings and now she's crying,they don't allow themselves to
feel with that feeling becauseit's not a feeling they go to.
And so they make it into yourfault.
Ryann (32:30):
We're all just asking to be met halfway.
Like, here I am in my humanity,feeling what I feel,
experiencing what I'mspiriencing.
Can you meet me halfway?
Right?
Darren (32:41):
Exactly.
So because of because becausewaking up is is such a hard,
difficult hard thing.
I'm an embodiment actor fromfrom university days.
So I I've created a characterwho embodies being a recovering
narcissist.
And also because drag is underattack right now.
My my character is a dragcharacter called Doreen.
(33:04):
And Doreen is a recoveringnarcissist.
And she shares openly about herinner experience in a way that
when people hear her, they'renot defended.
They're just listening to hermake fun of her own narcissism.
But I've I've already talked topeople who have woken up to
recognizing that they'reactually like Doreen.
And that's the whole point ofDoreen is that she's showing
(33:26):
them not only this is what'sgoing on for you, because that's
what I do with clients.
You know, a client comes in andthey they think they might be a
narcissist.
Well, I end up in myconversation with them because I
know they're guarded andthey're not telling me actually
what's going on.
I'm guessing, are you thinkingthis right now?
When I said this, did you feellike that?
When I said that, did you feellike this?
(33:46):
And I make enough guesses thatthey actually realize, like,
okay, okay, you can see behindthe screen.
And then they let me in behindthe screen.
And then it's it's like I'm thefirst person in their inner
circle ever, actually, in somecases, because I'm already, I'm
already seeing the processesthat are going on and I'm not
judging them for it.
Narcissism isn't an evil word,these are emotionally immature
(34:09):
processes.
And growing up emotionally isactually the answer.
And we we don't grow upemotionally by not feeling our
feelings, especially men don'tget good at emotions by not
feeling their emotions.
It keeps emotional immaturityruling.
We need to be able to feel ouremotions with each other and not
feel them as dangerous, and andto be able to do this with our
(34:32):
neighbors and our friends andour families.
And that is the work.
Ryann (34:36):
Yeah.
Are there narcissistic womentoo?
Because we've talked a lotabout men.
Yes.
Is there a stat?
How is it split?
Is it like 50-50 or is theremore?
Darren (34:46):
It's more 50-50.
I think the stat is liketwo-thirds men, one-third women.
Ryann (34:50):
So it's less in women.
Why do you think that is?
Darren (34:52):
Because the traits that we've decided are feminine are
the opposite of narcissism.
It it's um Okay.
So we learn to communicate andand eventually we're we learned
we learned to feel with eachother.
So you come to me crying and Ifeel your sadness with my own
sadness.
Or you come to me excited and Ijoin your excitement.
(35:13):
Someone who's sufferingnarcissism is able to join the
positive ones, but not thenegative ones.
Ryann (35:18):
I see.
Darren (35:20):
So we we need to be able to feel in with this full range
of emotions.
Women do that more.
Ryann (35:24):
Yeah.
Darren (35:25):
Because for we're not socialized out of feeling.
So many men were taught not tofeel by their dads.
Right.
They were just taught to be aman means to be stoic and not
get upset or to not get but thatcauses a lot of men to only be
in touch with anger and out oftouch with all the other things.
Well, when it comes to negativeemotions, right?
They'll you know they'll havefun and do all the good things,
(35:47):
but sure.
They might avoid loneliness,they might avoid um, you know,
the sadness.
Ryann (35:53):
Sadness, frustration, overwhelm, even maybe.
Why does it seem likenarcissists have a false sense
of pride, like an overlyinflated ego, but yet they're
feeling probably pretty smalland scared inside, like that
five-year-old that youreferenced.
Why can't they be humble?
Why do they have to be likeproud and just like stoic, like
(36:14):
you said?
Darren (36:15):
Yeah, that's one of the defenses.
A narcissist is living in astate of disconnection, not
fully connected with others.
And when we are in adisconnection, we need
narcissistic defenses to be okaywith that.
And part of that often lookslike, oh, I don't need them
anyway.
Oh, I'm smarter than them.
Almost everything is in shadesof gray.
The correct or incorrect, thegood and the bad, the right and
(36:38):
the wrong, the white and black,these are all polarized
responses.
And that's that's part ofwhat's going wrong.
Ryann (36:44):
I think as parents, we have a really strong
responsibility to help our kidsfeel our feelings.
And honestly, like the goodnews and the bad news is that it
starts with us.
Like, if I can't have a tantrummyself and cry on the floor
when I'm really sad or raging orhealing from something in my
past, then how am I gonna bepresent for my toddler when he's
(37:06):
having a tantrum or for mytween when she's arguing with me
because she disagrees with me?
I mean, you don't, I mean, youdon't have to agree with me just
because I birthed you.
Like, you don't have to see theway I see with every single
thing.
Yes, are there boundaries?
Yes, are there expectations?
Of course there are.
And also, like, there has to besome room for us as parents and
(37:29):
leaders, really, to allow foranother point of view, a hard
emotional experience.
Like we get to allow that.
Darren (37:38):
Yes.
And we we need to model dealingwith our emotions and feeling
with our emotions because there,there's it's not the same to
not feel your emotions versus tofeel your emotions and convey
it in a way that's healthy.
I can be extremely angry atyou.
Doesn't mean I'm launching intoyelling at you, doesn't mean
I'm devaluing you, doesn't meanI'm calling you stupid, doesn't
(38:01):
mean I need to raise my voice,or it doesn't mean I need to
walk away and give you the coldsilent treatment, which is also
a form of abuse, actually.
Um that's a common, common formof abuse.
And I want to point that outjust while we're on the topic.
You know, if you're it'sneglect, but yeah, that it's
stonewalling.
That's a common one ofnarcissism.
When they're angry at you, thatthey'll they'll treat you like
(38:23):
you're not there or they're nottalking to you, or you know,
that's devaluation in thatmoment.
You don't deserve my attention,you know.
And the person on the otherside does feel devalued and does
feel like they don't meananything to them and does feel
worthless.
It's it's abusive, in fact.
We're meant to feel our angryand and learn how to convey
that.
(38:43):
Be like, I am so angry at youright now, I am leaving the
house and I will be back whenI'm calmer.
It's not that we need to beacting out in the moment that
we're super angry.
No, that's not the time to makeany decision.
Because when we're angry orafraid, it's turning off big
hunks of our brain.
So you're not fully with us.
People do and say things whenthey're angry that they do not
(39:04):
mean, but it still has impact.
And that's where that's whereit goes very wrong for a lot of
narcissists.
And I can tell you, I came intothis topic very honestly.
I came from a narcissisticfamily system.
So it's just something I'veadapted to.
Ryann (39:20):
Your work in the world is so important.
I find that you're not beingjudgmental of somebody who has
narcissistic tendencies.
Like if somebody's like, do Ihave those tendencies and
they're listening to this, Idon't see them feeling judged or
shamed or anything like that.
I feel like you come to it witha lightness, and that's so
(39:42):
helpful for me, and I know foreverybody listening.
Whoever wants to come find youand follow you and get your
book.
Oh my gosh, I love the title,The United States of
Disconnection (39:51):
How narcissistic power is dividing our homes,
politics, and culture, and whatwe can do about it.
That is such an amazing title.
As we're recording this, it'sbeen out in the world for two
weeks.
Where do we get your book?
Where do we learn about thenarcissism recovery project and
love loops also?
Darren (40:08):
It's available on Amazon.
That's where you can get ittoday.
You could type in the UnitedStates of Disconnection.
It's it's the first bookbecause in therapy, we
understand we need to understandand name what is happening is
the first step in change.
We can't have change just bywanting change.
We need to first understand, ohgosh, this is what's happening
now.
The United States ofDisconnection is about waking up
(40:29):
to what is right now so thatchange is possible, so we can
make a different choice.
Since this book came out, it'sso big.
I'm actually writing a smallerversion of it that'll be um a
little more palatable.
But I'm also working on anotherbook called Project 2035: Love
versus Fear, the choice is ours.
And trust has been broken.
(40:49):
Trust it takes developing,right?
If we're just afraid of ourneighbor and we never talk to
them, we're not going to developtrust with them either.
We need you the the the changehere is reaching for your
neighbors and introducingyourself if you didn't already.
You know, that's where thechange happens.
The change happens from talkingto the person down the street
instead of walking by withfeeling afraid of them.
So loveloops.
(41:11):
We're supposed to be leaning oneach other.
We're supposed to be supportingeach other.
And right now we're tearingeach other apart.
So if everyone reached fortheir neighbors to heal that
relationship, America could comeback together and go down a
different path and get off thefear path.
Ryann (41:32):
Yeah, I so agree with you.
That's why I always say we canchange the world by starting at
home.
I do believe that it starts athome and then it starts in our
neighborhood, and then it startsin our school and our
communities, and it gets biggerfrom there.
I really believe the power ofthe ripple effect, and I know
that's what you are doing withyour work as well.
So thank you for that.
I'm gonna ask you the threequestions I ask everybody at the
(41:54):
end of the interview now, kindof like rapid fire style.
And the first question is what,if anything, are you reading
right now?
Darren (42:01):
Complex PTSD workbook.
This is something I use, Irefer to quite a lot with
clients, and I'm um, because weall need to be on a healing
path.
And this is one of the things.
Complex PTSD looks likenarcissism and it looks a lot
like it.
And we all we all need to bereaching for personal growth
things.
In 2025, to feel anxious anddepressed is a natural reaction
(42:24):
to the world.
So we need to be on a personalgrowth journey to not be anxious
and depressed.
Ryann (42:29):
The second question I have for you is what's bringing
you joy today?
Darren (42:33):
What's bringing me joy?
Well, the first thing that cameto my mind was my dog that's
under my feet.
Ryann (42:41):
Pets are like that.
Darren (42:43):
I I feel joy connecting to my passion.
Honestly, being here andtalking about narcissism, which
is a topic people say is somorbid and nasty.
And you know, even therapistsare like, oh, narcissism.
It's like, but it's my passionsubject because it it has so
much possibility when weunderstand it.
You know, I feel the hope whenI'm talking about it because I
can see this path that we're noton right now that we can be on.
(43:06):
And I feel excited for it.
Like I can, because I seepeople change in my practice.
I see people choosing love overfear.
I see people choosing personalgrowth.
I can see the potential.
So I feel I do feel so excitedhere and I do feel joy in this
subject.
Ryann (43:20):
Amazing.
It comes out.
You're very passionate, andthat's awesome.
Yes.
And then the last question Ihave for you, Darren, is who or
what has taught you the most?
Darren (43:30):
Who or what has taught me the most?
Oh my gosh.
My relationships have taught methe most, I guess.
That would be true.
I I can say church taught me alot.
I'm not a I'm not a churchattender, in fact, but it did
teach me how love and connectionand kindness are where we
thrive.
You know, I I came tounderstand like they are places
(43:50):
where we're taught to be safeand and where we're taught to
share what's going on for us ina lot of cases.
And that is what we're meant tobe like with others.
We're meant to lean on eachother, we're meant to share
vulnerably together.
And a lot of people havelearned that at church.
So, you know, come in and it'slike, what's going on for you?
And you say what's going on foryou.
And then the person'slistening, that's called active
listening.
And then they're repeating whatyou said, that's called active
(44:12):
listening, and then they'reshowing compassion.
Jesus, please bring some joy toDarren's heart.
He's so sad right now, and welove him so much.
Sharing that.
People do that at church.
Do it at home.
Do it, do it with yourneighbor.
Don't just do it at church.
Those are good things.
Churches are meant to preachlove, and when we love each
other, things go well.
(44:33):
Jesus loved everyone.
He didn't say love everyoneexcept your trans neighbor.
He washed the feet ofprostitute.
Like he loved everyone.
It was never about judging, itwas never about rejection.
There's just so much fear.
There's so much fear, and loveis the opposite of fear, but we
can't get there without thetrust and the vulnerability.
(44:53):
So practicing trust andvulnerability and connection
skills are how we get back tolove.
Ryann (44:58):
Yeah, absolutely.
Thank you so much, Darren, forthis conversation.
Darren (45:02):
Thank you so much for having me, Ryan.
I appreciate it.
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