September 29, 2025 • 42 mins
Want to inspire your team? How about motivate your kids? Or maybe you just need to be a better communicator? This week on Raising Wild Hearts, I'm sitting down with the incredible Dr. Melissa Robinson-Winemiller to challenge the authoritarian control system that once supercharged businesses and corporations–is EQ the solution to modern leadership challenges?
We're diving deep into the cost of empathy missing in leadership training and inspiration on how to be a great leader—one that people actually want to follow. Dr. Melissa and I unpack why empathy is the #1 skill for the future and how true empathy requires courage.
This is a beautiful invitation to look inward first, master your self-leadership, and finally create the psychological safety and trust that allows everyone around you—from your children to your colleagues—to thrive. If you’re ready to trade in the exhausted, ego-driven hustle for a powerful, heart-led leadership legacy, this episode is required listening.
In this episode, you'll learn:
- Why Emotional Intelligence (EQ) is a huge factor in business success
- Can empathy be learned?
- Why self-leadership is the key to all professional and personal growth
- How career development depends on soft skills and drives results in business
If you feel inspired please consider sharing this episode with a friend, writing a 5⭐️ review or becoming a Raising Wild Hearts Member here!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_01 (00:00):
Hi, Melissa.
(00:00):
Welcome to the Raising WildHearts podcast.
SPEAKER_00 (00:03):
Thank you so much for having me here today, Ryan.
I'm so excited to talk to you,and we have a lot in common.
So this is going to be fun.
SPEAKER_01 (00:10):
Yes, we do.
And yes, it is.
I'm so excited because I lovethe intersection of empathy and
leadership, which is where youhang out, it sounds like most of
the time.
And you are on a mission,Melissa, to prove that the
so-called soft skills are theones driving the hard results
and the future of leadershipdepends on them.
(00:32):
When I read that sentence, I waslike, wow, that's a big claim.
So let's start there.
Let's unpack that mission ofyours.
SPEAKER_00 (00:39):
You got it.
It is a big thing.
There's a lot to it.
So, but I really do believe it.
And the more we get into thingsthat don't have soft skills like
AI and big tech and and some ofthe, you know, super large
global conglomerations, that itbecomes difficult to have
empathy because of their size.
The more I'm absolutelyconvinced that the leaders that
(01:01):
are going to be the superstarsof the future are going to be
the ones that can actuallyfinally get their arms around
this concept.
SPEAKER_01 (01:06):
Yeah.
And there's something that weget wrong that empathy is soft
and that it's weak and that it'snot valuable.
So how actually in the long runis it valuable?
How does it drive the resultsand the bottom line?
And everybody in the businessworld, not to mention the entire
world, wants to see, right?
We want to see results on paper.
(01:28):
We want the gold stars.
We want to know that our effortis worth it.
So why are we getting it wrong?
Why are we thinking that it'ssoft or not a big deal?
SPEAKER_00 (01:36):
People have this idea that empathy is only about
feeling, but it's not.
Empathy is about being able totake the other person's
perspective.
I mean, for instance, I mean,empathy, we've been talking
about it really as a disciplinesince like the early 1900s.
And in that amount of time,there's a researcher who said he
was able to come up with 43different discrete kinds of
empathy that fall into eightcategories.
(01:58):
So to say it's only aboutfeeling is really narrowing what
it's about.
So when we talk about empathy,we're talking about connection
and understanding and being ableto take the other person's
perspective.
So to say that that's softbecause it deals with feeling,
well, that myth goes right outthe window right there when you
actually have a soliddefinition.
The other thing is, is in orderto take the other person's
perspective, you have to bevulnerable to taking on that
(02:21):
perspective to a certain degree,right?
I mean, the three kinds ofempathy that I deal with
particularly are emotionalempathy, which is the I feel
what you feel one, becausethat's important for perspective
taking.
There's cognitive empathy, whichmeans I logically understand
what you feel.
I just don't feel anything,which is the one I actually talk
to leaders about the most.
Because when you take on a lotof emotion, that's when you
(02:42):
start dealing with things likeburnout and empathy fatigue.
And that's those are problems.
The third one I talk about isself-empathy.
Because if we are unable tounderstand and connect to
ourselves, how can we possiblyexpect to understand and connect
with anybody else?
Well, to be able to take onsomeone else's perspective takes
courage because you know, forinstance, if you're talking to
someone who's in deep grief andyou're trying to see their
(03:02):
perspective, you're probablygoing to feel that grief.
And that takes courage becauseyou know what you're walking
into.
You know, if you're actuallytrying to take the perspective
of other people so that you cantake them into consideration in
your decisions as a leader,you're opening yourself up to
really understanding.
And that takes courage.
It takes a lot less courage tojust gloss over it and say,
well, this is how we do itbecause we've always done it.
(03:23):
So, you know, it actually takesmore courage.
SPEAKER_01 (03:26):
So I was talking to somebody the other day and I
mentioned to her, do you thinkempaths are drawn to
narcissists?
We started talking aboutempaths, and she said, I don't
believe there is such a thing asempath.
I believe that people don't havegood enough boundaries and that
they take on other people'sfeelings.
And so there's this sense oflike, oh, oh my gosh, if I have
(03:48):
to go there and feel this griefwith this person or to go there
and feel this frustration withthis person, how do I understand
where I start and they stop?
How do we keep those healthyboundaries when we're feeling
what someone else is feeling?
SPEAKER_00 (04:04):
Well, first of all, having empathy doesn't mean you
don't have boundaries.
So I absolutely agree with whatthat person is saying that
having those boundaries, I wouldsay, is even more important
because you don't want to end upentangled in all of this.
And you can, you know,logically, emotionally,
affectively.
It just you don't, it's notgood.
That's when you really do end upwith empathy fatigue.
(04:25):
And once you end up there, it'shard to feel much for anybody.
So I mean, boundaries withempathy is like boundaries at
any other place.
You have to know where you say,This is where I stop.
I'm willing to give this much ofmyself and no more.
I'm willing to allow people topush up to this point and no
more.
And then you have to do the hardpart, which is that you have to
actually stick to thoseboundaries.
(04:46):
It can be very easy to letpeople push past those
boundaries.
And that's then when you'regetting into people pleasing and
getting yourself entangled inthese things where you're you're
really only gonna hurt yourself.
So we're still dealing withhealthy boundary setting, which
means stopping to think, youknow, now we're back to
self-empathy.
What do I need?
Where do I connect with myself?
(05:06):
How do I understand thissituation and where am I at a
point that I'm not willing to goany further?
And then honoring yourself andyour self-empathy and saying,
that's my boundary.
I understand you're having ahard time.
I understand that this is reallydifficult, but this is where my
boundaries are at, and I cannotget entangled in this.
Because if you're not a healthy,together, connected person, you
can't help anybody else.
(05:27):
And that's doubly true forleaders because they're
responsible to everybody.
SPEAKER_01 (05:31):
Yeah.
So I'm hearing you say thatthere is an immense amount of
self-awareness that has to be inthe picture.
So for somebody who's new atleadership or considering the
idea of empathy and kind ofconsidering what we're saying,
and they're like, huh, hmm, Iwonder if I, or they start
(05:52):
exploring kind of their role inleadership or whatever it might
be, where would you tell them tostart kind of like paying
attention to what they'refeeling, what their boundaries
might be, you know, where theystart and someone else stops, et
cetera?
How do we start to becomeself-aware?
SPEAKER_00 (06:08):
So when I actually teach self-empathy, I teach it
in four steps.
The first one is observation.
And that means actually steppingoutside of yourself to be able
to see what you're doing, howyou're reacting, and to do it
without judgment.
Empathy and judgment cannotexist in the same space ever.
So you have to be able to lookat yourself and be critical, not
(06:29):
caring.
What am I doing?
How am I doing it?
What triggers it?
How does this come up?
Is there a person?
Is there a situation?
Is there something?
Right?
So you're just observing, you'regathering data and you're doing
it without getting emotionallywrapped up in it.
From there, it leads toself-reflection, which is where
you turn the lens inward and youstart to begin to ask yourself,
(06:50):
why do I think I respond likethis?
What are the feelings that comeup with this person when they
trigger me?
Why is it that I am unwilling togive the performance reviews
that people need?
What is it in me that's causingthis people pleasing?
And it takes a little bit ofeffort.
I mean, I'm not suggesting thatpeople need to spend days and
days, you know, navel gazing,but you do have to be up front
(07:11):
and say, yes, this is what'shappening.
Once you turn the lens inward,then you turn the lens outward.
And that's self-awareness.
How do I plug into the world?
How do I affect the world?
So first you look at how do Iaffect me, and then you say, how
do I affect those around me?
This is especially important forleaders because they have to be
able to be within thatenvironment and do the things
(07:32):
that they need to doeffectively.
So their interplay with theenvironment is the biggest part
of that leadership role.
Then once you have all of thatin place and you're doing it
every day, because this is apractice, not a performance.
Practice is something you do dayafter day, performance is
something you do one time.
Now you can start to getself-empathy, the understanding
(07:53):
of why you do things, theconnection of yourself to the
environment, beginning to showyourself the grace and the mercy
that you deserve as much asanybody else.
So that's that's how I breakthat down.
SPEAKER_01 (08:05):
Okay.
I was recently in a workenvironment in a business
partnership that I realized wasreally bad for me in a number of
different ways.
And upon observation andreflection, well, initially I
wanted to point the finger and Iwanted to point the finger at
the leadership in the company.
(08:25):
I wanted to point the finger outand say, you know, you did this,
you didn't do that.
And then after someself-reflection, I really was
like, okay, what part did I playin this?
Right?
Perhaps I consented to, youknow, stretching the amount of
time I was there.
Perhaps I consented to nothaving my contract fulfilled and
(08:47):
swept it under the rug.
So I was letting, you know,manipulation and deceit kind of
happen and kind of turning theother way.
So these kind of things.
And I went like, oh my gosh,well, I'm just as much of a part
of it as this organization wasor these people were.
And it's really not a fun thingto like kind of look within and
go, huh, okay.
This challenge that I had in mylife, like I played a part in
(09:09):
that, right?
And I consented to that.
And I think most importantly forme, it's like, okay, now I get
to learn from that.
Like, wow, what an opportunityto learn about oneself, right?
Totally.
SPEAKER_00 (09:23):
Because what I'm hearing from what you're saying
is you had boundaries.
You knew when they pushed pastthem, but you allowed them to
push past those boundaries.
Correct.
So then as you're you're you'rereflecting on this, now you can
take that, okay, yeah, I letthem push back my boundaries.
Now the self-awareness, and thistime I won't.
So that this can be a healthyrelationship.
(09:44):
And if they continue to try andpush past these boundaries,
that's when there's a red flagthat this is an issue.
Yep.
So yeah, absolutely.
I mean, until you learn aboutyourself and know where you
stand and where your boundariesare and how you do and don't
interact with people, you can'tbegin to actually have an
awareness of the world and yourimpact on everybody you touch.
(10:05):
Totally.
SPEAKER_01 (10:05):
And you know what you said on LinkedIn, actually,
and this reminds me of what yousaid here, because I have it
written down.
Leadership is a lot like dating.
You've got red flags, beigeflags, and yes, of course, green
flags.
But how often do we do weactually talk about what makes a
leader worth following?
So that's like, I love thatquestion.
And I want to talk aboutfollowing too, because I think
(10:26):
following is a relevantconversation in a leadership
conversation.
But what I thought when I waslike, oh, the beige flags, the
red flags, and the green flags,I saw and witnessed many orange,
I called them orange, orange andred flags leading up to this
like agreement of getting intothis partnership.
And something as simple, and youknow, looking back, I'm like, I
(10:49):
should have known.
Something as simple as being inthe same room as someone and
they're on their phone andyou're having a conversation
with them and they're actuallynot looking at you.
Very simple, right?
Happens a lot.
But this happened from asupposed leader in this
organization that I partneredwith.
And, you know, there weremultiple little things like
that.
And so let's talk aboutpresence.
(11:11):
I think there's something sovaluable in looking in someone's
eyes, putting your phone down.
I mean, this is simple stuff wedo at home with our kids.
Like put the phones up at acertain time when they're
speaking, really try and look atthem in their eyes.
You know, don't gloss over whatthey're saying, like really kind
of stand in the presence.
So maybe from where you'restanding, what does presence
have to do with leadership?
(11:32):
And then let's dive into thisbeige flag, orange flag, red
flag thing.
SPEAKER_00 (11:36):
Oh, it has everything to do with
leadership.
The thing about being a leaderis whether you like it or not,
you are always on stage.
So someone is always watching.
Leaders talk a lot aboutculture.
And like you talk aboutfamilies, it happens in
families, it happens inorganizations, it happens in
classrooms.
We create a culture and you caneither actively create the kind
of culture you want, or you canjust step back and see what
(11:58):
happens.
Now, if you're that leaderthat's going to be on the phone,
that you're going to bedistracted, that you're not
paying attention, that yourpresence is everywhere than with
your people, that's the cultureyou're creating.
And if you want your people toemulate that culture because
they are watching, someone isalways watching, then that's the
organization you're going toget.
If you want an organization thatactually takes time, that is
(12:19):
present, whether with customersor with other employees or with
you, with attention and loyaltyto what's going on, then you
have to give it because you'resetting the standard.
And sometimes that's hard forleaders to wrap their head
around that, well, well,nobody's paying attention to me.
No, everyone's paying attentionto you.
You just never know who'swatching.
SPEAKER_01 (12:37):
Yeah, it's so true.
So you said, how often do weactually talk about what makes a
leader worth following?
What does make a leader worthfollowing, right?
We all kind of have this feelinginside of us of like, that felt
icky.
Like, I don't know if I likethat.
But then we've had the leaderswho like we'll do anything for,
right?
And so what is that likestandout factor for those
(12:58):
leaders that make us, as let'scall it, followers, really want
to kind of get in line andfollow through with what they're
doing?
You know, what makes us want todo that?
And what is it about them?
SPEAKER_00 (13:11):
Connection.
If you have a leader that isconnected, that understands, I
mean, he that doesn't mean heneeds to, or he or she needs to
understand every little minordetail of everybody's life.
Yeah.
But they do try to connect andunderstand.
Their employees know them, theiremployees like them.
They don't have to be bestfriends, but they like them.
And their employees trust thembecause of that.
(13:34):
And trust is what happens whenwords and actions align over
time.
So those are the leaders that wewant to follow because we're
connected, they're connected,you know, we feel there's an
understanding there, and weknow, like, and trust them to
have our best interest in mind,to do the best they can, to have
the best intent.
See, the beautiful thing aboutempathy that people don't think
(13:54):
about is that when it's workingreally well, it works in both
directions.
So, as a leader, if you'regiving empathy through this
understanding and connection,you're going to get it back.
I mean, you've even said thereare leaders that you would
follow to the ends of the earth.
Totally.
You're probably giving them backthe empathy that they gave you
to begin with.
SPEAKER_01 (14:12):
Totally.
I have one of my favoriteleaders in mind when I worked on
a college campus.
He was my director.
And it was kind of like my firstdip into like personal
development.
And he told me once, I was in mylike early 20s, I was pretty
young.
This is a long time ago.
And he said, Ryan, I want you tostart a gratitude journal.
(14:32):
And I'm like, What?
You know, like, what are youtalking about?
And turns out over time, reallystarted to like it just unfolded
where I started to see what hewas talking about.
When I had this gratitude daily,I showed up better, you know,
happier, kinder, right?
(14:53):
More productive, not to mention,and people then wanted to follow
me.
It's interesting.
I felt that he was molding meinto being a leader by, you
know, kind of like, you know,suggesting the gratitude
journal.
He didn't say you have to dothis.
He said, like, what do you thinkabout starting a gratitude
journal?
kind of a thing.
And I was like, but I did it.
(15:13):
And then so those steps that hetook, it was that in addition to
like, hey, I've got a job thatlike only you can do, and I know
that you're gonna do this great.
And here's what I'm thinking.
What do you think?
Like, take this project and runwith it.
And there were so many thingslike that that he did so well.
And I'm so grateful to have hada really strong leader like that
(15:34):
because I know, you know, thatversus this situation that I was
just in.
I know that, like, okay, there'sthere's something out there.
There are people out there wholead like this.
So this that I'm experiencing,it's just it's not quite right.
It's not gonna work, right?
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (15:51):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Absolutely.
And I mean, when you talk about,you know, the leaders that
you're willing to follow, Ithink you're right.
We do gloss over those, thoseaspects, like, like him saying,
you know, what about this?
What about a gratitude journal?
What do you think about thisthat would actually make you
potentially a happier humanbeing that, you know, all
around, not just at work, youknow?
And I think that comes back tothose flags that we were talking
(16:14):
about earlier.
Because I think we actuallycatch a lot of things and our
intuition, we call it intuitionand like this doesn't feel
right.
This feels yucky.
But in reality, we're picking upthese signals.
It just may not be on aconscious level.
Or we may be dismissing them as,oh, well, it's work.
That's just work.
Well, no, that doesn't have tobe work.
And that's why we're here.
Because, you know, this shouldbe a movement that work doesn't
(16:36):
need to be like that, especiallywith the amount of time that we
spend there.
So yeah.
I think those flags are moreimportant than people realize.
SPEAKER_01 (16:43):
So important.
They're so important becauseI've been saying lately the
little stuff becomes the bigstuff, right?
So there's lots of littlemoments that just add up time
after time after time.
And I think, like, you know,when you can, and let's like
turn the the arrow back toourselves when we know like how
(17:03):
we show up day after day, thethings we say we're gonna do
that we don't, when we're livingout of integrity, we know it
when we show up and and do thewhatever it is for you that is
important for you to do in aday, right?
For me, it's meditation and awalk and presence and sunshine
and all these like veryseemingly small things, but
(17:24):
those small things add up to agood day.
They add up to a positiveattitude, they add up to like me
showing up for the people I lovebecause I've taken care of
myself, right?
Yep.
SPEAKER_00 (17:36):
And I think, you know, whether we meant to or
not, we're actually right backto boundaries because your
boundaries are these are thethings I will do in a day that
allow me to show up as a betterperson, as a better leader, as a
better parent, as a betterpartner, as a better whatever.
So you're you're saying myboundaries are here, these are
the things that I have to do.
And going back to what you weretalking about, you know, having
(17:58):
somebody on their phone or thesered flags, those are boundaries
as well.
You know, you're because if youwouldn't accept someone tapping
around on their phone whenyou're trying to have a
conversation with them inpublic, why should you accept
that in a work environment justbecause it happens to be a work
environment?
Your boundary says this doesn'tfeel good to not be acknowledged
as a human being and to havetech over me.
(18:19):
It's there.
It's still a relationship.
SPEAKER_01 (18:21):
Yeah.
So do you think that everybodyis a leader?
And because when I look at likea group full of kids, I'm like,
there's a lot of cooks in thekitchen here.
I've got three kids, 10 andunder.
I'm like, certain, you know, youknow, certain classes, there's a
lot of chiefs.
There you're not, you know, andand a lot of cooks in the
(18:42):
kitchen.
And so I'm like, hmm, caneverybody here be a leader?
And I don't know.
Like, I'm I play around withthis question.
Is everybody set to be a leader?
Like, what's your take on that?
SPEAKER_00 (18:52):
So, well, let me start with the with the
research.
Well, we'll start there and thenI'll tell you what I think.
Okay.
So the research itself, we'vegone from what was called the
great man theory.
I mean, it was old, so ofcourse, women weren't women
couldn't even be leaders, right?
Of course.
Of course not.
Of course.
And by men we mean certainethnicities as well.
So that's that's where we began,right?
(19:13):
Since that time, we've come tothe idea that leadership is
something that can be learned,you know, utilized and trained.
Now, from what I've seen, Ibelieve that this is true.
However, in order to learn, youhave to want to learn and you
have to want to instill it.
So, like anything else, like anyother behavior, this is gonna
exist on a spectrum, right?
(19:34):
There's gonna be some peoplethat are gonna be a lot more
talented at it naturally thanothers.
Do I think it's possible foreveryone to learn them?
Yes.
Do I think everybody's gonna putin the work and the effort that
it takes to learn it?
No.
SPEAKER_01 (19:46):
Very, very interesting.
That really helps me kind ofanswer this question in my mind
because what I'm hearing you sayis yes, there are skills that
can be learned, but the the itfactor, if you will, comes from
the intrinsic motivation.
That's what I heard.
Yes.
The person who And they canlearn it might know, right?
(20:07):
Yeah.
So, okay, that's so interesting.
Love that.
Okay.
Well, I'm trying to figure outwhere I want to go here.
Let me mark that down so I canit's all right.
Yeah, thank you.
Okay, I'm curious, what do mostpeople get wrong about empathy
specifically?
Like, what are we walking aroundgetting wrong about it a lot?
SPEAKER_00 (20:27):
The feeling thing.
That it's only about feelings.
Because I mean, even when youtalk about, because you brought
up empaths earlier, but it'sonly about feelings.
And empathy is not only aboutfeelings.
It's it's so much broader thanthat.
I mean, it's got basis inbiology and neurobiology and
psychology and philosophy, andto just narrow it down and say
it's just feelings is is reallydoing it an injustice for just
(20:50):
how powerful it is.
SPEAKER_01 (20:51):
So it's the feelings plus the cognitive, I
understand.
And what else?
SPEAKER_00 (20:56):
Well, really, it's about being able to take the
perspective of the other tounderstand and connect.
So it may not have anything todo with feelings at all.
It may not even have anything todo with cognitive.
I mean, we talk about when I'mlooking at this huge matrix,
that's empathy.
I mean, there's empathy withnature.
I mean, being able to be out innature and have that connection
(21:16):
and, you know, be able to takeperspectives.
Animals show empathy.
They show empathy to each other,they show empathy to us and we
show it to them.
So it's it's feelings are partof it, but they're not even a
little bit of it.
It's way bigger than that.
Really, it's about perspectivetaking.
And feelings are one way to dothat, but they're by far not the
only way.
SPEAKER_01 (21:36):
Why does nobody have empathy on social media?
If you look at any commentsection right now, we we've got
a lot of divisive things goingon.
We've got a lot of justterrible, awful things that that
really get to people and andunderstandably so.
I mean, man, it's a wild time tobe alive.
Why can't we just be nice?
SPEAKER_00 (21:58):
Well, part of it, unfortunately, is the way our
human brains work.
I mean, there's been a lot ofstudies that show that the
nastiness gets a lot moreinterplay, gets a lot more
interaction, gets people riledup and they get all the comments
and all of the stuff.
You know, we're going back to ifit bleeds, it leads in the news.
Yeah.
And that is how our brains work.
We pull on the negative stuffbefore we do the positive.
(22:21):
But the other side of that,honestly, is because we let it.
If we stopped giving it thatattention and we started
refusing to play into that, itwould stop.
So that becomes a personalmission, right?
Yeah.
If we each took up that standardand said, I'm not going to allow
this, and enough of us did it,it would stop.
SPEAKER_01 (22:41):
Yeah, it would.
Uh, I've got tears in my eyesbecause my affirmation,
everybody here knows, they'veheard me say it a bunch of
times.
But right now, my affirmation ispeace begins with me.
Because, you know, I can controland choose my reactions and my
responses and, you know,everything throughout the day,
(23:02):
right?
That's concerned with me.
And I tell my kids that a lottoo.
Like, focus on you, focus onyou.
Because they'll go, like,so-and-so did this, focus on
you.
Like, focus on you, like alwaysbringing it back.
And I want to say somethingabout getting riled up because
my dear, blessed, brave husband,when I was going through this
business partnership that wastoxic and frustrating and
(23:25):
challenging in so many ways, hesaid to me one day, Ryan, I
think you like this.
And I was like, Oh, you justnailed it.
Oh my god, I do like it.
And I just, I cringe, likebecause I was like so like
wronged and cheated andrighteous, and it's happening to
me.
(23:45):
And it was this like littlefamiliar thing that I had with
like the drama and theexcitement and the I'm so right,
they're so wrong.
We do seek the negative, right?
Is that like the negativitybias?
Is that what it is in our brainor is it called something else?
SPEAKER_00 (24:02):
Well, they think it goes kind of back to
evolutionary stuff that you knowthe good stuff is wonderful, but
the bad stuff could kill you.
So we tend to focus in on thebad stuff, even though nobody on
social media, no social mediacomment, no matter how trolly it
is, is going to kill you.
But all the same, sometimes ithits pretty close.
And I think part of this too iswe have to understand that the
(24:24):
only thing we can control inthis world is our reaction.
I can't control what someoneelse is gonna do.
I can't control what they'regonna say.
I had someone last week wantingto get in a big argument with me
about empathy, and it's like,really, you want to get trolley
with the empathy lady.
Do you kick puppies for fun too?
You know?
I mean, there's going to besomeone who's going to do that,
(24:47):
but it's up to us to be be ableto react and say, no, that's not
who I am.
And don't get me wrong, I'm notsaying it's easy.
I wanted to reach through thescreen at this first spot.
SPEAKER_01 (24:56):
Of course, right?
Human nature.
You're human.
SPEAKER_00 (24:59):
Yeah, it is.
But we should be able to controlour human nature.
If not, I mean, we might as wellseed the planet back over to
nature because I know, I hearyou.
SPEAKER_01 (25:09):
You know, something my husband and I say a lot is
like it all starts at home, itall starts at home.
And this to me gets into theconversation about the way we
run companies, the way we work,the way we run our businesses
can be like to me, it's a veryparallel skill set, right?
Creating the culture, having theempathy, you know, setting the
(25:31):
values of the home, all of thatstuff.
We don't do that here.
We do do that here.
Here's what you're great at.
Like, take that and run with it.
Here's what you need to work on.
Like, let's talk about that inour family meeting, you know,
all these kinds of things.
And like, how do you see, maybefrom the clients you've worked,
from the research you've done,how it does relate, like
(25:54):
leadership at home and at work.
What are some of those skillsthat do overlap?
SPEAKER_00 (25:58):
Well, they absolutely overlap.
I mean, yeah, totally.
And and same with empathy.
I mean, that's one of the thingsthat makes it so powerful is
it's a transferable skill.
You know, you can bring thathome and do that same connection
and understanding, you know.
When your partner comes home andthey're frustrated and they they
just want to like scream andyou're in that feeling with
them, even though seeing themthat upset also makes you want
(26:20):
to scream.
You're showing them that empathyand then and then the leadership
of help me understand yoursituation because I want to be
able to help if I can.
Help me understand yourperspective because you're
seeing things differently than Iam.
Can you show me what you mean?
Can you can you help me seewhere you're at?
Because really that's whatleadership is.
It's not just bossing peoplearound.
(26:41):
I mean, if it were, then I knowa lot of people that would be
very good leaders.
Me too.
You know?
Yeah, yeah.
But it's it's not, it's aboutunderstanding the perspective
and being able to take thatvision and bring people together
so that it's more than just, youknow, I lead and you follow.
It becomes a shared vision.
Okay.
(27:01):
And that's a real leader.
That's the difference between amanager and a leader.
So the way business used to workis, you know, they thought of
the organization as a machine,right?
This comes out of the industrialrevolution and the mechanization
of everything.
And so this idea that peoplewere cogs and they were bits and
pieces that you could pull outand you could fix and you could
make do what you wanted it todo.
(27:21):
And that's a very managerialmindset.
I mean, that's kind of what itis.
But there's no vision there.
There's no, there's just fixingthe machine, fixing the machine.
People can be fixed.
A leader can pull all of thesedifferent parts together and
have a vision and say, we'removing forward into this future
state.
And it doesn't matter if thatleader is a parent, you know, or
(27:42):
if that leader is head of aFortune 500 company.
We help me understand whereyou're at so that we can come
together to move into thisoptimal future state where we're
all going to be able to bebetter than we are right now.
SPEAKER_01 (27:54):
Help me understand what a simple revolutionary
statement that is.
Like, I love that.
Help me understand because Ithink so many of us, and myself
included, sometimes, right?
I'm not like sitting here on mysoapbox.
I mean, sometimes I am, but it'sinstead of like, let me show you
(28:14):
why I'm so right.
You know, it's that from likehelp me understand.
Cause then you put your kind of,this is like why I'm so right.
This is why I'm so justified inhow I feel.
I need you to understand.
We shift it from that to help meunderstand.
(28:34):
I love that so much.
Imagine if everybody used thatsimple sentence every day.
The world would be different.
SPEAKER_00 (28:41):
Yeah.
One of the things I tell myleaders is that, you know, we're
all adults.
And I don't believe for a secondthat we're suddenly all going to
be puppies and rainbows andnirvana just because we're using
empathy.
But what if you increased yourempathy by 5%?
Just 5%.
And that's the kind of statementthat could do that.
And then it ripples out.
Yep.
SPEAKER_01 (29:01):
It does.
Love that.
So if we had a crystal ball,right?
Because why not?
And we could see, let's say, 30years into the future, what do
you think are the like, what arethe leaders of the companies,
the leaders of the communities,leaders of schools?
Like, what are those leaderslike?
Like, how are things different30 years from now if everybody
(29:25):
takes what we're saying todayand runs with it?
Like in 2055, what are welooking at?
SPEAKER_00 (29:32):
Because we're dealing so much with an influx
of things that have no empathy,like AI, but that mimic empathy.
So that it looks like they havemore empathy than some people,
which is terrifying, which iswhy we have people that are
getting sucked into it, and nowwe're having lawsuits about
suicides and harm and peopledrifting into psychosis and that
(29:53):
sort of thing.
The more we deal with this, themore we're going to have to tap
into our human side of things.
The ones that don't.
Are going to continue down thatpath.
And unfortunately, it doesn'tappear that much good is at the
end of it.
The ones who do tap into thehuman side, which is what
empathy is.
Empathy is the connector ofhuman beings.
The more they connect into that,the more they're going to be
(30:14):
supercharged because they'regoing to be able to bring people
together.
Instead of having thesescattered factions that are that
are trusting technology that hasproven itself to fail often, to
be biased, to have seriousproblems.
They're actually going to beable to lead into the future.
We're back to being visionary,you know?
And I'm not saying there'sanything wrong with AI.
There's not.
It's an extremely powerful tool,but people are trying to use it
(30:37):
for something that it's not whenthey should be looking to humans
for that connection.
So the leaders that can actuallyget a hold of that, they're
going to be the visionaries ofthe future.
They're going to be thesuperstars.
They're going to be the ones tolead us in past the age of AI
into whatever comes next.
SPEAKER_01 (30:52):
Yeah.
How would you teach a kid or agroup of kids empathy?
Would it be just modeled?
Would it be like, here's a book,like let me teach you?
Like, how would you like likeput this in developmentally
appropriate terms for say like athird grader?
SPEAKER_00 (31:09):
Modeling and interaction is huge because they
do actually teach empathy insome countries.
It falls under the umbrella ofwhat's called social emotional
learning.
And a lot of the Europeannations, the Norse nations, they
started as young as six.
It goes to the age of 16.
There's a reason why they're inthe top 10 happiest nations
every year and have been sincethe Nixon administration.
(31:30):
You know?
So if you're talking ageappropriate with kids, they're
going to be watching.
See, again, as a leader, you'reon stage all the time, and that
includes as a parent.
They're watching.
Are you showing empathy?
Or are you just saying haveempathy and then tapping on your
phone?
I mean, it's seriously.
I mean, you are the one that'sgoing to set this stage for
them, you know, and theninteraction.
(31:51):
That's why they talk about howkids that have pets, where they
interact with the pets and they,you know, learn maybe even to
have a little bit of perspectivetaking.
You know, if you don't feed poorFluffy, she's gonna be really,
really hungry.
How would you feel?
You know, you you just boppedyour brother on the head.
How would you feel if that wasyou?
You know, okay, you've gotWinston the turtle, you know,
(32:13):
think about where Winston's at,where he doesn't have any water.
How would you feel if that wasyour if this is a turtle and
this is his life?
How do you feel if this is takenaway?
You know, that sort of thing.
It allows them to start to getoutside of their own head so
that you start taking on theperspective of others.
The other thing that we don'tnecessarily talk about a whole
lot is is some of thelimitations of social media.
(32:34):
With social media, the spotlightis always on you.
And there are studies that areshowing this may be causing a
rise in narcissism, among otherthings, because it's it's that
main character syndrome.
This is always about me.
It's about me.
Well, empathy is about the we,being able to say we as a group,
as a collective.
This is how others are feeling,this is how others are acting,
this is that perspective taking.
(32:56):
So, you know, limiting thesocial media or at least
balancing it with being able tosee outside of themselves is
huge, especially at those youngdevelopmental ages.
SPEAKER_01 (33:05):
Huge.
I'm in a book club right now forthe anxious generation.
I think a lot of people knowJonathan Haidt's work and the
harm of uh social media inparticular on developing brains.
Like, you know, I think hestarts his research at maybe
nine.
I don't know, pretty young.
But the stats aren't good.
And I'm only on chapter likefour or five.
(33:25):
But yeah, it's not looking good.
But it's, you know, and it's sadbecause anxiety, depression,
self-harm, suicide, like all ofthese line graphs are just going
like up, up, up compared to whenI was a kid, um, you know, in
the 80s and 90s.
And so yeah, I think that's abig um, it's a big conversation.
I think it's a big undertakingfor parents in modern
(33:48):
parenthood.
We're very much removed from ourvillage.
Most of us just have us in ourhomes and we're trying to
balance relationships and workand partnerships and finances.
And I understand why parentssay, here's the iPad, here's the
phone, because they want likesome some perceived peace.
And I get that.
(34:08):
We we don't do devices for ourkids yet.
One day, the conversation isjust really far from now.
And when we do do the devices,social media won't be included.
I think probably till like highschool or beyond.
I don't even know.
But yeah, I'm glad that youbrought that up because it's so
relevant right now.
It's so relevant.
I'm curious on public speaking.
I'm gonna take a little bit of aleft turn here in public
(34:30):
speaking.
On public speaking.
Yes, we do that here.
What do you think makes a talklike irresistible to like a
conference attendee or alistener?
I'm just so curious because Iknow you've written a book,
which I can't wait to talk aboutas we start to wrap up, and
you're on stage and you'retalking to many people.
What do you think like reallymakes a talk land for an
(34:51):
audience?
SPEAKER_00 (34:52):
I mean, not to sound like I'm repeating myself, but
it's empathy.
Connecting and understanding.
What can I bring to my audiencethat's going to help me connect
with them?
What's going to resonate withtheir experience?
What will help them understandthemselves better through
whatever it is that I'm saying?
And those are the good talks,the ones where I can walk away
and feel that connection ofyeah, that we were connected as
(35:15):
a group through that.
You know, we we came together inthat and we understood each
other just a little bit better.
SPEAKER_01 (35:21):
Yeah.
It reminds me of the quote oflike, I don't know who said it,
but people don't remember whatyou said.
They remember how you made themfeel.
It's that, like in a nutshell.
I love that.
So if you're somebody out therewho's making content for the
masses or doing talks or writingbooks, I think a good place to
start is like putting yourselfin somebody's shoes who's
(35:44):
sitting across from you.
What are their challenges?
What are their fears?
What are their joys?
And what do they seek and whatdo they desire?
Things like that.
Are those good questions to askourselves?
SPEAKER_00 (35:54):
Well, absolutely.
And I think that's it doesn'tmatter if it's an audience or
one-on-one.
Even as we're talking, I'mpicking up, you know, what is it
that you want?
Where's where are you comingfrom with this?
Help me understand yourperspective.
Yeah, you know, and and then youbuild a rapport, and and next
thing you know, you know, you'vecreated connection.
And you can do it with oneperson, you can do it with a
thousand people.
(36:15):
It doesn't matter.
It's the same concept.
SPEAKER_01 (36:17):
Yeah.
Your work is just so beautiful.
Your book is called TheEmpathetic, right?
Yes, the empathetic leader.
Empathic leader.
Thank you.
Empathetic.
That sounds terrible.
And like, as soon as I said it,I'm like, that doesn't sound
right.
I was mixing empathic and thankyou.
That's okay.
You're fine.
(36:37):
You're fine.
Yes, your book, The EmpathicLeader, how EQ via empathy
transforms leadership for betterprofit, productivity, and
innovation.
Why did you write this book andwhy now, Melissa?
SPEAKER_00 (36:51):
So the way this book started is I wanted to actually
kind of have a handbook forleaders with the stuff that I'm
working on and that I'mteaching.
I'm wrapping up my seconddoctorate and I'm like neck deep
in the dissertation.
So I'm like, and my dissertationis leadership and empathy.
So I'm like, if this is whereI'm at and this is the research
I'm doing, then why don't Iwrite a book that might actually
help people understand thisbetter?
(37:11):
Because as I go through this,you know, the more I go get into
this, the more for me, this Iwant to start a movement.
I want to start something thatripples out everywhere.
And for me, for leaders, that'sa good place to start because
they affect so many people.
I spend a little bit of time atthe beginning of each chapter
talking about my story as amusician and why I left music
(37:31):
after some really horriblestuff.
And I know a lot of people thathave been in that same situation
in organizations where they'rein a horrifically toxic culture,
but they can't get away.
You can't leave.
You have to stay for somereason.
So I was like, well, why don't Istart with that?
Because I really want to be ableto address leaders and
leadership, the stuff that'sI've been working on in my
(37:52):
dissertation and get it out in away that people can use it.
That's why that book, it's notvery long, but I want it to be
something that's accessiblebecause I don't know any leader
that has time to sit and read a600-page book.
So I try to keep it veryaccessible and and very easy to
get a hold of and you know thatsort of thing.
I'm already started on my secondbook though, and that one's
going to be geared towardseverybody.
SPEAKER_01 (38:15):
Awesome.
Well, the movement has started.
It's official.
The movement has begun.
And I'm yes, I'm just so honoredthat you were here to teach me,
to teach everybody here with ustoday.
I really, really believe thatthe ripple effect is real.
I say that so much.
You mentioned the ripple effect.
(38:35):
Like, this is beautiful.
This will help me walk forwardtoday and in the coming weeks
and months, like thinking aboutempathy in a different way.
And I really, really love yourwork.
So, for everybody listening,because I know they're gonna
want to find you and follow you,where should they go to get your
book and to follow the workyou're doing?
SPEAKER_00 (38:54):
So you can catch me at my website, which is EQVia,
Viaz and Victor, I A Empathy.
And there's a place there whereyou can sign up for my
newsletter and you'll get a freechapter of the book if you want
to just test it out.
It's the chapter on flags,actually.
So you can see what it's allabout.
I am on LinkedIn primarily.
I'm also on Instagram, and Ihave a podcast called The
Empathic Leader, which is up onYouTube.
(39:14):
So you can you can catch methere too.
I'm all over the place.
SPEAKER_01 (39:18):
You're all over, Dr.
Melissa.
You're just you're making yourrounds and it's great.
Like, you know, be seen, get onthe stage, like do the hard
thing.
And I think it's just it's soadmirable, it's courageous, and
it's awesome.
So thank you for your work.
As we wrap up, I'm gonna ask youthe questions that I ask
everybody at the end of theinterview.
(39:38):
And the first one is what'sbringing you joy today?
SPEAKER_00 (39:42):
My cat.
She brought me one of her littletoys this morning, and she was
so excited to share it with me,and it just made me so happy
that she was happy.
Oh, what's her name?
Yadviga.
It's a Polish name because myhusband's mother came from
Poland.
So my cats are Yadviga andNatasha no goodnik.
SPEAKER_01 (39:58):
What if anything are you reading right now?
SPEAKER_00 (40:00):
I am reading a bad blood, which is well, here it
is.
It's the book on Theranos.
I don't know if Elizabeth Holmesand the whole Theranos thing.
Because I'm actually looking atit like a case study for uh
toxic leadership.
So I'm going after it with aresearcher's eye because I'm I'm
curious how something could havegotten so out of control.
SPEAKER_01 (40:17):
Who or what has taught you the most?
SPEAKER_00 (40:19):
Honestly, my husband.
We we didn't meet until later inlife.
I was over 40, and I think hewas just barely over 40 by the
time we got married.
And being with him and beingwith someone who accepts me
unconditionally the way I am,even when I do my crazy things
that I do, has been eye-opening.
I see myself differently throughhim.
(40:39):
And he's the one that's allowedme to do the stuff that I'm
doing right now.
Not as in he let me, but as inhe kind of helped set me free
from some of my own self-imposedshackles.
SPEAKER_01 (40:50):
I love that.
Shout out to your husband andall the good men out there.
I always say, shout out to allthe good men out there
supporting their strong andcourageous women because it's
not an easy task.
So that's beautiful.
Thank you so much again forbeing here, Melissa.
This conversation was amazing.
SPEAKER_00 (41:09):
Thank you so much for having me.
This has just been such adelight and just much love to
you and your audience, Ryan.
Thank you.
Hi, Melissa.
(00:00):
Welcome to the Raising WildHearts podcast.
SPEAKER_00 (00:03):
Thank you so much for having me here today, Ryan.
I'm so excited to talk to you,and we have a lot in common.
So this is going to be fun.
SPEAKER_01 (00:10):
Yes, we do.
And yes, it is.
I'm so excited because I lovethe intersection of empathy and
leadership, which is where youhang out, it sounds like most of
the time.
And you are on a mission,Melissa, to prove that the
so-called soft skills are theones driving the hard results
and the future of leadershipdepends on them.
(00:32):
When I read that sentence, I waslike, wow, that's a big claim.
So let's start there.
Let's unpack that mission ofyours.
SPEAKER_00 (00:39):
You got it.
It is a big thing.
There's a lot to it.
So, but I really do believe it.
And the more we get into thingsthat don't have soft skills like
AI and big tech and and some ofthe, you know, super large
global conglomerations, that itbecomes difficult to have
empathy because of their size.
The more I'm absolutelyconvinced that the leaders that
(01:01):
are going to be the superstarsof the future are going to be
the ones that can actuallyfinally get their arms around
this concept.
SPEAKER_01 (01:06):
Yeah.
And there's something that weget wrong that empathy is soft
and that it's weak and that it'snot valuable.
So how actually in the long runis it valuable?
How does it drive the resultsand the bottom line?
And everybody in the businessworld, not to mention the entire
world, wants to see, right?
We want to see results on paper.
(01:28):
We want the gold stars.
We want to know that our effortis worth it.
So why are we getting it wrong?
Why are we thinking that it'ssoft or not a big deal?
SPEAKER_00 (01:36):
People have this idea that empathy is only about
feeling, but it's not.
Empathy is about being able totake the other person's
perspective.
I mean, for instance, I mean,empathy, we've been talking
about it really as a disciplinesince like the early 1900s.
And in that amount of time,there's a researcher who said he
was able to come up with 43different discrete kinds of
empathy that fall into eightcategories.
(01:58):
So to say it's only aboutfeeling is really narrowing what
it's about.
So when we talk about empathy,we're talking about connection
and understanding and being ableto take the other person's
perspective.
So to say that that's softbecause it deals with feeling,
well, that myth goes right outthe window right there when you
actually have a soliddefinition.
The other thing is, is in orderto take the other person's
perspective, you have to bevulnerable to taking on that
(02:21):
perspective to a certain degree,right?
I mean, the three kinds ofempathy that I deal with
particularly are emotionalempathy, which is the I feel
what you feel one, becausethat's important for perspective
taking.
There's cognitive empathy, whichmeans I logically understand
what you feel.
I just don't feel anything,which is the one I actually talk
to leaders about the most.
Because when you take on a lotof emotion, that's when you
(02:42):
start dealing with things likeburnout and empathy fatigue.
And that's those are problems.
The third one I talk about isself-empathy.
Because if we are unable tounderstand and connect to
ourselves, how can we possiblyexpect to understand and connect
with anybody else?
Well, to be able to take onsomeone else's perspective takes
courage because you know, forinstance, if you're talking to
someone who's in deep grief andyou're trying to see their
(03:02):
perspective, you're probablygoing to feel that grief.
And that takes courage becauseyou know what you're walking
into.
You know, if you're actuallytrying to take the perspective
of other people so that you cantake them into consideration in
your decisions as a leader,you're opening yourself up to
really understanding.
And that takes courage.
It takes a lot less courage tojust gloss over it and say,
well, this is how we do itbecause we've always done it.
(03:23):
So, you know, it actually takesmore courage.
SPEAKER_01 (03:26):
So I was talking to somebody the other day and I
mentioned to her, do you thinkempaths are drawn to
narcissists?
We started talking aboutempaths, and she said, I don't
believe there is such a thing asempath.
I believe that people don't havegood enough boundaries and that
they take on other people'sfeelings.
And so there's this sense oflike, oh, oh my gosh, if I have
(03:48):
to go there and feel this griefwith this person or to go there
and feel this frustration withthis person, how do I understand
where I start and they stop?
How do we keep those healthyboundaries when we're feeling
what someone else is feeling?
SPEAKER_00 (04:04):
Well, first of all, having empathy doesn't mean you
don't have boundaries.
So I absolutely agree with whatthat person is saying that
having those boundaries, I wouldsay, is even more important
because you don't want to end upentangled in all of this.
And you can, you know,logically, emotionally,
affectively.
It just you don't, it's notgood.
That's when you really do end upwith empathy fatigue.
(04:25):
And once you end up there, it'shard to feel much for anybody.
So I mean, boundaries withempathy is like boundaries at
any other place.
You have to know where you say,This is where I stop.
I'm willing to give this much ofmyself and no more.
I'm willing to allow people topush up to this point and no
more.
And then you have to do the hardpart, which is that you have to
actually stick to thoseboundaries.
(04:46):
It can be very easy to letpeople push past those
boundaries.
And that's then when you'regetting into people pleasing and
getting yourself entangled inthese things where you're you're
really only gonna hurt yourself.
So we're still dealing withhealthy boundary setting, which
means stopping to think, youknow, now we're back to
self-empathy.
What do I need?
Where do I connect with myself?
(05:06):
How do I understand thissituation and where am I at a
point that I'm not willing to goany further?
And then honoring yourself andyour self-empathy and saying,
that's my boundary.
I understand you're having ahard time.
I understand that this is reallydifficult, but this is where my
boundaries are at, and I cannotget entangled in this.
Because if you're not a healthy,together, connected person, you
can't help anybody else.
(05:27):
And that's doubly true forleaders because they're
responsible to everybody.
SPEAKER_01 (05:31):
Yeah.
So I'm hearing you say thatthere is an immense amount of
self-awareness that has to be inthe picture.
So for somebody who's new atleadership or considering the
idea of empathy and kind ofconsidering what we're saying,
and they're like, huh, hmm, Iwonder if I, or they start
(05:52):
exploring kind of their role inleadership or whatever it might
be, where would you tell them tostart kind of like paying
attention to what they'refeeling, what their boundaries
might be, you know, where theystart and someone else stops, et
cetera?
How do we start to becomeself-aware?
SPEAKER_00 (06:08):
So when I actually teach self-empathy, I teach it
in four steps.
The first one is observation.
And that means actually steppingoutside of yourself to be able
to see what you're doing, howyou're reacting, and to do it
without judgment.
Empathy and judgment cannotexist in the same space ever.
So you have to be able to lookat yourself and be critical, not
(06:29):
caring.
What am I doing?
How am I doing it?
What triggers it?
How does this come up?
Is there a person?
Is there a situation?
Is there something?
Right?
So you're just observing, you'regathering data and you're doing
it without getting emotionallywrapped up in it.
From there, it leads toself-reflection, which is where
you turn the lens inward and youstart to begin to ask yourself,
(06:50):
why do I think I respond likethis?
What are the feelings that comeup with this person when they
trigger me?
Why is it that I am unwilling togive the performance reviews
that people need?
What is it in me that's causingthis people pleasing?
And it takes a little bit ofeffort.
I mean, I'm not suggesting thatpeople need to spend days and
days, you know, navel gazing,but you do have to be up front
(07:11):
and say, yes, this is what'shappening.
Once you turn the lens inward,then you turn the lens outward.
And that's self-awareness.
How do I plug into the world?
How do I affect the world?
So first you look at how do Iaffect me, and then you say, how
do I affect those around me?
This is especially important forleaders because they have to be
able to be within thatenvironment and do the things
(07:32):
that they need to doeffectively.
So their interplay with theenvironment is the biggest part
of that leadership role.
Then once you have all of thatin place and you're doing it
every day, because this is apractice, not a performance.
Practice is something you do dayafter day, performance is
something you do one time.
Now you can start to getself-empathy, the understanding
(07:53):
of why you do things, theconnection of yourself to the
environment, beginning to showyourself the grace and the mercy
that you deserve as much asanybody else.
So that's that's how I breakthat down.
SPEAKER_01 (08:05):
Okay.
I was recently in a workenvironment in a business
partnership that I realized wasreally bad for me in a number of
different ways.
And upon observation andreflection, well, initially I
wanted to point the finger and Iwanted to point the finger at
the leadership in the company.
(08:25):
I wanted to point the finger outand say, you know, you did this,
you didn't do that.
And then after someself-reflection, I really was
like, okay, what part did I playin this?
Right?
Perhaps I consented to, youknow, stretching the amount of
time I was there.
Perhaps I consented to nothaving my contract fulfilled and
(08:47):
swept it under the rug.
So I was letting, you know,manipulation and deceit kind of
happen and kind of turning theother way.
So these kind of things.
And I went like, oh my gosh,well, I'm just as much of a part
of it as this organization wasor these people were.
And it's really not a fun thingto like kind of look within and
go, huh, okay.
This challenge that I had in mylife, like I played a part in
(09:09):
that, right?
And I consented to that.
And I think most importantly forme, it's like, okay, now I get
to learn from that.
Like, wow, what an opportunityto learn about oneself, right?
Totally.
SPEAKER_00 (09:23):
Because what I'm hearing from what you're saying
is you had boundaries.
You knew when they pushed pastthem, but you allowed them to
push past those boundaries.
Correct.
So then as you're you're you'rereflecting on this, now you can
take that, okay, yeah, I letthem push back my boundaries.
Now the self-awareness, and thistime I won't.
So that this can be a healthyrelationship.
(09:44):
And if they continue to try andpush past these boundaries,
that's when there's a red flagthat this is an issue.
Yep.
So yeah, absolutely.
I mean, until you learn aboutyourself and know where you
stand and where your boundariesare and how you do and don't
interact with people, you can'tbegin to actually have an
awareness of the world and yourimpact on everybody you touch.
(10:05):
Totally.
SPEAKER_01 (10:05):
And you know what you said on LinkedIn, actually,
and this reminds me of what yousaid here, because I have it
written down.
Leadership is a lot like dating.
You've got red flags, beigeflags, and yes, of course, green
flags.
But how often do we do weactually talk about what makes a
leader worth following?
So that's like, I love thatquestion.
And I want to talk aboutfollowing too, because I think
(10:26):
following is a relevantconversation in a leadership
conversation.
But what I thought when I waslike, oh, the beige flags, the
red flags, and the green flags,I saw and witnessed many orange,
I called them orange, orange andred flags leading up to this
like agreement of getting intothis partnership.
And something as simple, and youknow, looking back, I'm like, I
(10:49):
should have known.
Something as simple as being inthe same room as someone and
they're on their phone andyou're having a conversation
with them and they're actuallynot looking at you.
Very simple, right?
Happens a lot.
But this happened from asupposed leader in this
organization that I partneredwith.
And, you know, there weremultiple little things like
that.
And so let's talk aboutpresence.
(11:11):
I think there's something sovaluable in looking in someone's
eyes, putting your phone down.
I mean, this is simple stuff wedo at home with our kids.
Like put the phones up at acertain time when they're
speaking, really try and look atthem in their eyes.
You know, don't gloss over whatthey're saying, like really kind
of stand in the presence.
So maybe from where you'restanding, what does presence
have to do with leadership?
(11:32):
And then let's dive into thisbeige flag, orange flag, red
flag thing.
SPEAKER_00 (11:36):
Oh, it has everything to do with
leadership.
The thing about being a leaderis whether you like it or not,
you are always on stage.
So someone is always watching.
Leaders talk a lot aboutculture.
And like you talk aboutfamilies, it happens in
families, it happens inorganizations, it happens in
classrooms.
We create a culture and you caneither actively create the kind
of culture you want, or you canjust step back and see what
(11:58):
happens.
Now, if you're that leaderthat's going to be on the phone,
that you're going to bedistracted, that you're not
paying attention, that yourpresence is everywhere than with
your people, that's the cultureyou're creating.
And if you want your people toemulate that culture because
they are watching, someone isalways watching, then that's the
organization you're going toget.
If you want an organization thatactually takes time, that is
(12:19):
present, whether with customersor with other employees or with
you, with attention and loyaltyto what's going on, then you
have to give it because you'resetting the standard.
And sometimes that's hard forleaders to wrap their head
around that, well, well,nobody's paying attention to me.
No, everyone's paying attentionto you.
You just never know who'swatching.
SPEAKER_01 (12:37):
Yeah, it's so true.
So you said, how often do weactually talk about what makes a
leader worth following?
What does make a leader worthfollowing, right?
We all kind of have this feelinginside of us of like, that felt
icky.
Like, I don't know if I likethat.
But then we've had the leaderswho like we'll do anything for,
right?
And so what is that likestandout factor for those
(12:58):
leaders that make us, as let'scall it, followers, really want
to kind of get in line andfollow through with what they're
doing?
You know, what makes us want todo that?
And what is it about them?
SPEAKER_00 (13:11):
Connection.
If you have a leader that isconnected, that understands, I
mean, he that doesn't mean heneeds to, or he or she needs to
understand every little minordetail of everybody's life.
Yeah.
But they do try to connect andunderstand.
Their employees know them, theiremployees like them.
They don't have to be bestfriends, but they like them.
And their employees trust thembecause of that.
(13:34):
And trust is what happens whenwords and actions align over
time.
So those are the leaders that wewant to follow because we're
connected, they're connected,you know, we feel there's an
understanding there, and weknow, like, and trust them to
have our best interest in mind,to do the best they can, to have
the best intent.
See, the beautiful thing aboutempathy that people don't think
(13:54):
about is that when it's workingreally well, it works in both
directions.
So, as a leader, if you'regiving empathy through this
understanding and connection,you're going to get it back.
I mean, you've even said thereare leaders that you would
follow to the ends of the earth.
Totally.
You're probably giving them backthe empathy that they gave you
to begin with.
SPEAKER_01 (14:12):
Totally.
I have one of my favoriteleaders in mind when I worked on
a college campus.
He was my director.
And it was kind of like my firstdip into like personal
development.
And he told me once, I was in mylike early 20s, I was pretty
young.
This is a long time ago.
And he said, Ryan, I want you tostart a gratitude journal.
(14:32):
And I'm like, What?
You know, like, what are youtalking about?
And turns out over time, reallystarted to like it just unfolded
where I started to see what hewas talking about.
When I had this gratitude daily,I showed up better, you know,
happier, kinder, right?
(14:53):
More productive, not to mention,and people then wanted to follow
me.
It's interesting.
I felt that he was molding meinto being a leader by, you
know, kind of like, you know,suggesting the gratitude
journal.
He didn't say you have to dothis.
He said, like, what do you thinkabout starting a gratitude
journal?
kind of a thing.
And I was like, but I did it.
(15:13):
And then so those steps that hetook, it was that in addition to
like, hey, I've got a job thatlike only you can do, and I know
that you're gonna do this great.
And here's what I'm thinking.
What do you think?
Like, take this project and runwith it.
And there were so many thingslike that that he did so well.
And I'm so grateful to have hada really strong leader like that
(15:34):
because I know, you know, thatversus this situation that I was
just in.
I know that, like, okay, there'sthere's something out there.
There are people out there wholead like this.
So this that I'm experiencing,it's just it's not quite right.
It's not gonna work, right?
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (15:51):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Absolutely.
And I mean, when you talk about,you know, the leaders that
you're willing to follow, Ithink you're right.
We do gloss over those, thoseaspects, like, like him saying,
you know, what about this?
What about a gratitude journal?
What do you think about thisthat would actually make you
potentially a happier humanbeing that, you know, all
around, not just at work, youknow?
And I think that comes back tothose flags that we were talking
(16:14):
about earlier.
Because I think we actuallycatch a lot of things and our
intuition, we call it intuitionand like this doesn't feel
right.
This feels yucky.
But in reality, we're picking upthese signals.
It just may not be on aconscious level.
Or we may be dismissing them as,oh, well, it's work.
That's just work.
Well, no, that doesn't have tobe work.
And that's why we're here.
Because, you know, this shouldbe a movement that work doesn't
(16:36):
need to be like that, especiallywith the amount of time that we
spend there.
So yeah.
I think those flags are moreimportant than people realize.
SPEAKER_01 (16:43):
So important.
They're so important becauseI've been saying lately the
little stuff becomes the bigstuff, right?
So there's lots of littlemoments that just add up time
after time after time.
And I think, like, you know,when you can, and let's like
turn the the arrow back toourselves when we know like how
(17:03):
we show up day after day, thethings we say we're gonna do
that we don't, when we're livingout of integrity, we know it
when we show up and and do thewhatever it is for you that is
important for you to do in aday, right?
For me, it's meditation and awalk and presence and sunshine
and all these like veryseemingly small things, but
(17:24):
those small things add up to agood day.
They add up to a positiveattitude, they add up to like me
showing up for the people I lovebecause I've taken care of
myself, right?
Yep.
SPEAKER_00 (17:36):
And I think, you know, whether we meant to or
not, we're actually right backto boundaries because your
boundaries are these are thethings I will do in a day that
allow me to show up as a betterperson, as a better leader, as a
better parent, as a betterpartner, as a better whatever.
So you're you're saying myboundaries are here, these are
the things that I have to do.
And going back to what you weretalking about, you know, having
(17:58):
somebody on their phone or thesered flags, those are boundaries
as well.
You know, you're because if youwouldn't accept someone tapping
around on their phone whenyou're trying to have a
conversation with them inpublic, why should you accept
that in a work environment justbecause it happens to be a work
environment?
Your boundary says this doesn'tfeel good to not be acknowledged
as a human being and to havetech over me.
(18:19):
It's there.
It's still a relationship.
SPEAKER_01 (18:21):
Yeah.
So do you think that everybodyis a leader?
And because when I look at likea group full of kids, I'm like,
there's a lot of cooks in thekitchen here.
I've got three kids, 10 andunder.
I'm like, certain, you know, youknow, certain classes, there's a
lot of chiefs.
There you're not, you know, andand a lot of cooks in the
(18:42):
kitchen.
And so I'm like, hmm, caneverybody here be a leader?
And I don't know.
Like, I'm I play around withthis question.
Is everybody set to be a leader?
Like, what's your take on that?
SPEAKER_00 (18:52):
So, well, let me start with the with the
research.
Well, we'll start there and thenI'll tell you what I think.
Okay.
So the research itself, we'vegone from what was called the
great man theory.
I mean, it was old, so ofcourse, women weren't women
couldn't even be leaders, right?
Of course.
Of course not.
Of course.
And by men we mean certainethnicities as well.
So that's that's where we began,right?
(19:13):
Since that time, we've come tothe idea that leadership is
something that can be learned,you know, utilized and trained.
Now, from what I've seen, Ibelieve that this is true.
However, in order to learn, youhave to want to learn and you
have to want to instill it.
So, like anything else, like anyother behavior, this is gonna
exist on a spectrum, right?
(19:34):
There's gonna be some peoplethat are gonna be a lot more
talented at it naturally thanothers.
Do I think it's possible foreveryone to learn them?
Yes.
Do I think everybody's gonna putin the work and the effort that
it takes to learn it?
No.
SPEAKER_01 (19:46):
Very, very interesting.
That really helps me kind ofanswer this question in my mind
because what I'm hearing you sayis yes, there are skills that
can be learned, but the the itfactor, if you will, comes from
the intrinsic motivation.
That's what I heard.
Yes.
The person who And they canlearn it might know, right?
(20:07):
Yeah.
So, okay, that's so interesting.
Love that.
Okay.
Well, I'm trying to figure outwhere I want to go here.
Let me mark that down so I canit's all right.
Yeah, thank you.
Okay, I'm curious, what do mostpeople get wrong about empathy
specifically?
Like, what are we walking aroundgetting wrong about it a lot?
SPEAKER_00 (20:27):
The feeling thing.
That it's only about feelings.
Because I mean, even when youtalk about, because you brought
up empaths earlier, but it'sonly about feelings.
And empathy is not only aboutfeelings.
It's it's so much broader thanthat.
I mean, it's got basis inbiology and neurobiology and
psychology and philosophy, andto just narrow it down and say
it's just feelings is is reallydoing it an injustice for just
(20:50):
how powerful it is.
SPEAKER_01 (20:51):
So it's the feelings plus the cognitive, I
understand.
And what else?
SPEAKER_00 (20:56):
Well, really, it's about being able to take the
perspective of the other tounderstand and connect.
So it may not have anything todo with feelings at all.
It may not even have anything todo with cognitive.
I mean, we talk about when I'mlooking at this huge matrix,
that's empathy.
I mean, there's empathy withnature.
I mean, being able to be out innature and have that connection
(21:16):
and, you know, be able to takeperspectives.
Animals show empathy.
They show empathy to each other,they show empathy to us and we
show it to them.
So it's it's feelings are partof it, but they're not even a
little bit of it.
It's way bigger than that.
Really, it's about perspectivetaking.
And feelings are one way to dothat, but they're by far not the
only way.
SPEAKER_01 (21:36):
Why does nobody have empathy on social media?
If you look at any commentsection right now, we we've got
a lot of divisive things goingon.
We've got a lot of justterrible, awful things that that
really get to people and andunderstandably so.
I mean, man, it's a wild time tobe alive.
Why can't we just be nice?
SPEAKER_00 (21:58):
Well, part of it, unfortunately, is the way our
human brains work.
I mean, there's been a lot ofstudies that show that the
nastiness gets a lot moreinterplay, gets a lot more
interaction, gets people riledup and they get all the comments
and all of the stuff.
You know, we're going back to ifit bleeds, it leads in the news.
Yeah.
And that is how our brains work.
We pull on the negative stuffbefore we do the positive.
(22:21):
But the other side of that,honestly, is because we let it.
If we stopped giving it thatattention and we started
refusing to play into that, itwould stop.
So that becomes a personalmission, right?
Yeah.
If we each took up that standardand said, I'm not going to allow
this, and enough of us did it,it would stop.
SPEAKER_01 (22:41):
Yeah, it would.
Uh, I've got tears in my eyesbecause my affirmation,
everybody here knows, they'veheard me say it a bunch of
times.
But right now, my affirmation ispeace begins with me.
Because, you know, I can controland choose my reactions and my
responses and, you know,everything throughout the day,
(23:02):
right?
That's concerned with me.
And I tell my kids that a lottoo.
Like, focus on you, focus onyou.
Because they'll go, like,so-and-so did this, focus on
you.
Like, focus on you, like alwaysbringing it back.
And I want to say somethingabout getting riled up because
my dear, blessed, brave husband,when I was going through this
business partnership that wastoxic and frustrating and
(23:25):
challenging in so many ways, hesaid to me one day, Ryan, I
think you like this.
And I was like, Oh, you justnailed it.
Oh my god, I do like it.
And I just, I cringe, likebecause I was like so like
wronged and cheated andrighteous, and it's happening to
me.
(23:45):
And it was this like littlefamiliar thing that I had with
like the drama and theexcitement and the I'm so right,
they're so wrong.
We do seek the negative, right?
Is that like the negativitybias?
Is that what it is in our brainor is it called something else?
SPEAKER_00 (24:02):
Well, they think it goes kind of back to
evolutionary stuff that you knowthe good stuff is wonderful, but
the bad stuff could kill you.
So we tend to focus in on thebad stuff, even though nobody on
social media, no social mediacomment, no matter how trolly it
is, is going to kill you.
But all the same, sometimes ithits pretty close.
And I think part of this too iswe have to understand that the
(24:24):
only thing we can control inthis world is our reaction.
I can't control what someoneelse is gonna do.
I can't control what they'regonna say.
I had someone last week wantingto get in a big argument with me
about empathy, and it's like,really, you want to get trolley
with the empathy lady.
Do you kick puppies for fun too?
You know?
I mean, there's going to besomeone who's going to do that,
(24:47):
but it's up to us to be be ableto react and say, no, that's not
who I am.
And don't get me wrong, I'm notsaying it's easy.
I wanted to reach through thescreen at this first spot.
SPEAKER_01 (24:56):
Of course, right?
Human nature.
You're human.
SPEAKER_00 (24:59):
Yeah, it is.
But we should be able to controlour human nature.
If not, I mean, we might as wellseed the planet back over to
nature because I know, I hearyou.
SPEAKER_01 (25:09):
You know, something my husband and I say a lot is
like it all starts at home, itall starts at home.
And this to me gets into theconversation about the way we
run companies, the way we work,the way we run our businesses
can be like to me, it's a veryparallel skill set, right?
Creating the culture, having theempathy, you know, setting the
(25:31):
values of the home, all of thatstuff.
We don't do that here.
We do do that here.
Here's what you're great at.
Like, take that and run with it.
Here's what you need to work on.
Like, let's talk about that inour family meeting, you know,
all these kinds of things.
And like, how do you see, maybefrom the clients you've worked,
from the research you've done,how it does relate, like
(25:54):
leadership at home and at work.
What are some of those skillsthat do overlap?
SPEAKER_00 (25:58):
Well, they absolutely overlap.
I mean, yeah, totally.
And and same with empathy.
I mean, that's one of the thingsthat makes it so powerful is
it's a transferable skill.
You know, you can bring thathome and do that same connection
and understanding, you know.
When your partner comes home andthey're frustrated and they they
just want to like scream andyou're in that feeling with
them, even though seeing themthat upset also makes you want
(26:20):
to scream.
You're showing them that empathyand then and then the leadership
of help me understand yoursituation because I want to be
able to help if I can.
Help me understand yourperspective because you're
seeing things differently than Iam.
Can you show me what you mean?
Can you can you help me seewhere you're at?
Because really that's whatleadership is.
It's not just bossing peoplearound.
(26:41):
I mean, if it were, then I knowa lot of people that would be
very good leaders.
Me too.
You know?
Yeah, yeah.
But it's it's not, it's aboutunderstanding the perspective
and being able to take thatvision and bring people together
so that it's more than just, youknow, I lead and you follow.
It becomes a shared vision.
Okay.
(27:01):
And that's a real leader.
That's the difference between amanager and a leader.
So the way business used to workis, you know, they thought of
the organization as a machine,right?
This comes out of the industrialrevolution and the mechanization
of everything.
And so this idea that peoplewere cogs and they were bits and
pieces that you could pull outand you could fix and you could
make do what you wanted it todo.
(27:21):
And that's a very managerialmindset.
I mean, that's kind of what itis.
But there's no vision there.
There's no, there's just fixingthe machine, fixing the machine.
People can be fixed.
A leader can pull all of thesedifferent parts together and
have a vision and say, we'removing forward into this future
state.
And it doesn't matter if thatleader is a parent, you know, or
(27:42):
if that leader is head of aFortune 500 company.
We help me understand whereyou're at so that we can come
together to move into thisoptimal future state where we're
all going to be able to bebetter than we are right now.
SPEAKER_01 (27:54):
Help me understand what a simple revolutionary
statement that is.
Like, I love that.
Help me understand because Ithink so many of us, and myself
included, sometimes, right?
I'm not like sitting here on mysoapbox.
I mean, sometimes I am, but it'sinstead of like, let me show you
(28:14):
why I'm so right.
You know, it's that from likehelp me understand.
Cause then you put your kind of,this is like why I'm so right.
This is why I'm so justified inhow I feel.
I need you to understand.
We shift it from that to help meunderstand.
(28:34):
I love that so much.
Imagine if everybody used thatsimple sentence every day.
The world would be different.
SPEAKER_00 (28:41):
Yeah.
One of the things I tell myleaders is that, you know, we're
all adults.
And I don't believe for a secondthat we're suddenly all going to
be puppies and rainbows andnirvana just because we're using
empathy.
But what if you increased yourempathy by 5%?
Just 5%.
And that's the kind of statementthat could do that.
And then it ripples out.
Yep.
SPEAKER_01 (29:01):
It does.
Love that.
So if we had a crystal ball,right?
Because why not?
And we could see, let's say, 30years into the future, what do
you think are the like, what arethe leaders of the companies,
the leaders of the communities,leaders of schools?
Like, what are those leaderslike?
Like, how are things different30 years from now if everybody
(29:25):
takes what we're saying todayand runs with it?
Like in 2055, what are welooking at?
SPEAKER_00 (29:32):
Because we're dealing so much with an influx
of things that have no empathy,like AI, but that mimic empathy.
So that it looks like they havemore empathy than some people,
which is terrifying, which iswhy we have people that are
getting sucked into it, and nowwe're having lawsuits about
suicides and harm and peopledrifting into psychosis and that
(29:53):
sort of thing.
The more we deal with this, themore we're going to have to tap
into our human side of things.
The ones that don't.
Are going to continue down thatpath.
And unfortunately, it doesn'tappear that much good is at the
end of it.
The ones who do tap into thehuman side, which is what
empathy is.
Empathy is the connector ofhuman beings.
The more they connect into that,the more they're going to be
(30:14):
supercharged because they'regoing to be able to bring people
together.
Instead of having thesescattered factions that are that
are trusting technology that hasproven itself to fail often, to
be biased, to have seriousproblems.
They're actually going to beable to lead into the future.
We're back to being visionary,you know?
And I'm not saying there'sanything wrong with AI.
There's not.
It's an extremely powerful tool,but people are trying to use it
(30:37):
for something that it's not whenthey should be looking to humans
for that connection.
So the leaders that can actuallyget a hold of that, they're
going to be the visionaries ofthe future.
They're going to be thesuperstars.
They're going to be the ones tolead us in past the age of AI
into whatever comes next.
SPEAKER_01 (30:52):
Yeah.
How would you teach a kid or agroup of kids empathy?
Would it be just modeled?
Would it be like, here's a book,like let me teach you?
Like, how would you like likeput this in developmentally
appropriate terms for say like athird grader?
SPEAKER_00 (31:09):
Modeling and interaction is huge because they
do actually teach empathy insome countries.
It falls under the umbrella ofwhat's called social emotional
learning.
And a lot of the Europeannations, the Norse nations, they
started as young as six.
It goes to the age of 16.
There's a reason why they're inthe top 10 happiest nations
every year and have been sincethe Nixon administration.
(31:30):
You know?
So if you're talking ageappropriate with kids, they're
going to be watching.
See, again, as a leader, you'reon stage all the time, and that
includes as a parent.
They're watching.
Are you showing empathy?
Or are you just saying haveempathy and then tapping on your
phone?
I mean, it's seriously.
I mean, you are the one that'sgoing to set this stage for
them, you know, and theninteraction.
(31:51):
That's why they talk about howkids that have pets, where they
interact with the pets and they,you know, learn maybe even to
have a little bit of perspectivetaking.
You know, if you don't feed poorFluffy, she's gonna be really,
really hungry.
How would you feel?
You know, you you just boppedyour brother on the head.
How would you feel if that wasyou?
You know, okay, you've gotWinston the turtle, you know,
(32:13):
think about where Winston's at,where he doesn't have any water.
How would you feel if that wasyour if this is a turtle and
this is his life?
How do you feel if this is takenaway?
You know, that sort of thing.
It allows them to start to getoutside of their own head so
that you start taking on theperspective of others.
The other thing that we don'tnecessarily talk about a whole
lot is is some of thelimitations of social media.
(32:34):
With social media, the spotlightis always on you.
And there are studies that areshowing this may be causing a
rise in narcissism, among otherthings, because it's it's that
main character syndrome.
This is always about me.
It's about me.
Well, empathy is about the we,being able to say we as a group,
as a collective.
This is how others are feeling,this is how others are acting,
this is that perspective taking.
(32:56):
So, you know, limiting thesocial media or at least
balancing it with being able tosee outside of themselves is
huge, especially at those youngdevelopmental ages.
SPEAKER_01 (33:05):
Huge.
I'm in a book club right now forthe anxious generation.
I think a lot of people knowJonathan Haidt's work and the
harm of uh social media inparticular on developing brains.
Like, you know, I think hestarts his research at maybe
nine.
I don't know, pretty young.
But the stats aren't good.
And I'm only on chapter likefour or five.
(33:25):
But yeah, it's not looking good.
But it's, you know, and it's sadbecause anxiety, depression,
self-harm, suicide, like all ofthese line graphs are just going
like up, up, up compared to whenI was a kid, um, you know, in
the 80s and 90s.
And so yeah, I think that's abig um, it's a big conversation.
I think it's a big undertakingfor parents in modern
(33:48):
parenthood.
We're very much removed from ourvillage.
Most of us just have us in ourhomes and we're trying to
balance relationships and workand partnerships and finances.
And I understand why parentssay, here's the iPad, here's the
phone, because they want likesome some perceived peace.
And I get that.
(34:08):
We we don't do devices for ourkids yet.
One day, the conversation isjust really far from now.
And when we do do the devices,social media won't be included.
I think probably till like highschool or beyond.
I don't even know.
But yeah, I'm glad that youbrought that up because it's so
relevant right now.
It's so relevant.
I'm curious on public speaking.
I'm gonna take a little bit of aleft turn here in public
(34:30):
speaking.
On public speaking.
Yes, we do that here.
What do you think makes a talklike irresistible to like a
conference attendee or alistener?
I'm just so curious because Iknow you've written a book,
which I can't wait to talk aboutas we start to wrap up, and
you're on stage and you'retalking to many people.
What do you think like reallymakes a talk land for an
(34:51):
audience?
SPEAKER_00 (34:52):
I mean, not to sound like I'm repeating myself, but
it's empathy.
Connecting and understanding.
What can I bring to my audiencethat's going to help me connect
with them?
What's going to resonate withtheir experience?
What will help them understandthemselves better through
whatever it is that I'm saying?
And those are the good talks,the ones where I can walk away
and feel that connection ofyeah, that we were connected as
(35:15):
a group through that.
You know, we we came together inthat and we understood each
other just a little bit better.
SPEAKER_01 (35:21):
Yeah.
It reminds me of the quote oflike, I don't know who said it,
but people don't remember whatyou said.
They remember how you made themfeel.
It's that, like in a nutshell.
I love that.
So if you're somebody out therewho's making content for the
masses or doing talks or writingbooks, I think a good place to
start is like putting yourselfin somebody's shoes who's
(35:44):
sitting across from you.
What are their challenges?
What are their fears?
What are their joys?
And what do they seek and whatdo they desire?
Things like that.
Are those good questions to askourselves?
SPEAKER_00 (35:54):
Well, absolutely.
And I think that's it doesn'tmatter if it's an audience or
one-on-one.
Even as we're talking, I'mpicking up, you know, what is it
that you want?
Where's where are you comingfrom with this?
Help me understand yourperspective.
Yeah, you know, and and then youbuild a rapport, and and next
thing you know, you know, you'vecreated connection.
And you can do it with oneperson, you can do it with a
thousand people.
(36:15):
It doesn't matter.
It's the same concept.
SPEAKER_01 (36:17):
Yeah.
Your work is just so beautiful.
Your book is called TheEmpathetic, right?
Yes, the empathetic leader.
Empathic leader.
Thank you.
Empathetic.
That sounds terrible.
And like, as soon as I said it,I'm like, that doesn't sound
right.
I was mixing empathic and thankyou.
That's okay.
You're fine.
(36:37):
You're fine.
Yes, your book, The EmpathicLeader, how EQ via empathy
transforms leadership for betterprofit, productivity, and
innovation.
Why did you write this book andwhy now, Melissa?
SPEAKER_00 (36:51):
So the way this book started is I wanted to actually
kind of have a handbook forleaders with the stuff that I'm
working on and that I'mteaching.
I'm wrapping up my seconddoctorate and I'm like neck deep
in the dissertation.
So I'm like, and my dissertationis leadership and empathy.
So I'm like, if this is whereI'm at and this is the research
I'm doing, then why don't Iwrite a book that might actually
help people understand thisbetter?
(37:11):
Because as I go through this,you know, the more I go get into
this, the more for me, this Iwant to start a movement.
I want to start something thatripples out everywhere.
And for me, for leaders, that'sa good place to start because
they affect so many people.
I spend a little bit of time atthe beginning of each chapter
talking about my story as amusician and why I left music
(37:31):
after some really horriblestuff.
And I know a lot of people thathave been in that same situation
in organizations where they'rein a horrifically toxic culture,
but they can't get away.
You can't leave.
You have to stay for somereason.
So I was like, well, why don't Istart with that?
Because I really want to be ableto address leaders and
leadership, the stuff that'sI've been working on in my
(37:52):
dissertation and get it out in away that people can use it.
That's why that book, it's notvery long, but I want it to be
something that's accessiblebecause I don't know any leader
that has time to sit and read a600-page book.
So I try to keep it veryaccessible and and very easy to
get a hold of and you know thatsort of thing.
I'm already started on my secondbook though, and that one's
going to be geared towardseverybody.
SPEAKER_01 (38:15):
Awesome.
Well, the movement has started.
It's official.
The movement has begun.
And I'm yes, I'm just so honoredthat you were here to teach me,
to teach everybody here with ustoday.
I really, really believe thatthe ripple effect is real.
I say that so much.
You mentioned the ripple effect.
(38:35):
Like, this is beautiful.
This will help me walk forwardtoday and in the coming weeks
and months, like thinking aboutempathy in a different way.
And I really, really love yourwork.
So, for everybody listening,because I know they're gonna
want to find you and follow you,where should they go to get your
book and to follow the workyou're doing?
SPEAKER_00 (38:54):
So you can catch me at my website, which is EQVia,
Viaz and Victor, I A Empathy.
And there's a place there whereyou can sign up for my
newsletter and you'll get a freechapter of the book if you want
to just test it out.
It's the chapter on flags,actually.
So you can see what it's allabout.
I am on LinkedIn primarily.
I'm also on Instagram, and Ihave a podcast called The
Empathic Leader, which is up onYouTube.
(39:14):
So you can you can catch methere too.
I'm all over the place.
SPEAKER_01 (39:18):
You're all over, Dr.
Melissa.
You're just you're making yourrounds and it's great.
Like, you know, be seen, get onthe stage, like do the hard
thing.
And I think it's just it's soadmirable, it's courageous, and
it's awesome.
So thank you for your work.
As we wrap up, I'm gonna ask youthe questions that I ask
everybody at the end of theinterview.
(39:38):
And the first one is what'sbringing you joy today?
SPEAKER_00 (39:42):
My cat.
She brought me one of her littletoys this morning, and she was
so excited to share it with me,and it just made me so happy
that she was happy.
Oh, what's her name?
Yadviga.
It's a Polish name because myhusband's mother came from
Poland.
So my cats are Yadviga andNatasha no goodnik.
SPEAKER_01 (39:58):
What if anything are you reading right now?
SPEAKER_00 (40:00):
I am reading a bad blood, which is well, here it
is.
It's the book on Theranos.
I don't know if Elizabeth Holmesand the whole Theranos thing.
Because I'm actually looking atit like a case study for uh
toxic leadership.
So I'm going after it with aresearcher's eye because I'm I'm
curious how something could havegotten so out of control.
SPEAKER_01 (40:17):
Who or what has taught you the most?
SPEAKER_00 (40:19):
Honestly, my husband.
We we didn't meet until later inlife.
I was over 40, and I think hewas just barely over 40 by the
time we got married.
And being with him and beingwith someone who accepts me
unconditionally the way I am,even when I do my crazy things
that I do, has been eye-opening.
I see myself differently throughhim.
(40:39):
And he's the one that's allowedme to do the stuff that I'm
doing right now.
Not as in he let me, but as inhe kind of helped set me free
from some of my own self-imposedshackles.
SPEAKER_01 (40:50):
I love that.
Shout out to your husband andall the good men out there.
I always say, shout out to allthe good men out there
supporting their strong andcourageous women because it's
not an easy task.
So that's beautiful.
Thank you so much again forbeing here, Melissa.
This conversation was amazing.
SPEAKER_00 (41:09):
Thank you so much for having me.
This has just been such adelight and just much love to
you and your audience, Ryan.
Thank you.
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