Breaking Educational Boundaries with Dr. Naomi Fisher

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Vicci Oliver (00:00):
In today's episode , I'm in conversation with
clinical psychologist andself-directed education advocate
, dr Naomi Fisher, where we'retalking all about the current
state of our education systemsand the tools that are used to
manage children, as opposed towhat children actually need to
learn.
I'd like to acknowledge thetraditional custodians of the

(00:21):
land on which we're recordingtoday the Kabi Kabi and Gabi
Gabi people.
I would like to recognize thecontinued connection to the land
and waters of this beautifulplace we call home.
I also recognize Aboriginalpeople as the original
custodians of this land andacknowledge that they have never
seen its sovereignty.
I'd like to pay my respects toall Gabi Gabi elders, ancestors
and emerging elders and anyFirst Nations people listening

(00:43):
today.
Welcome to Raising Wildlings, apodcast about parenting,
alternative education andstepping into the wilderness,
however that looks, with yourfamily.

Nicki Farrell (00:54):
Each week, we'll be interviewing experts that
truly inspire us to answer yourparenting and education
questions.
We'll also be sharing storiesfrom some incredible families
that took the leap and aretaking the road less traveled.

Wear your hosts, vicki and Nikki from Wildlings
Forest School Pop in yourheadphones, settle in and join
us on this next adventure.
Hello and welcome to theRaising Wildlings podcast.
You've got me on the pottytoday, vicki Oliver, and I'm
really excited to have ourspecial guest, dr Naomi Fisher,
joining me on the podcast today.
I've just finished rereadingher first book, called Changing

(01:29):
Our Minds, and it combines herin-depth knowledge in cognitive
psychology, which I love, withher hands on experience in
raising two children through thelens of self-directed education
.
Now, you might remember,recently, in 2023, I had Peter
Gray on the podcast, and when Iwas chatting to him outside of
our interview, I asked him whohe thought would be a great

(01:51):
guest on the podcast, and heactually recommended Naomi, so I
knew that this episode wasgoing to be a really important
conversation.
Now, dr Naomi Fisher is aclinical psychologist who
specializes in autism, traumaand alternative ways to learn.
She is the author of two booksChanging Our Minds, which is the
one that I've just reread, andalso her second book is called A
Different Way to Learn.

(02:11):
They're both aboutself-directed education, and she
is the mother of two children.
She runs webinars and courseshelping parents, and all of her
Instagram and sub-stack arevaluable resources that I highly
recommend, so I hope you enjoyour interview.
Naomi, thank you so much forjoining me on the podcast today.

(02:32):
I'm really excited to hear allabout your story and all of your
thoughts.
So let's start right at thebeginning.
Tell me a little bit about howyou even fell into psychology,
and then I'd love for you totell me your journey to deciding
to home educate your children.

Dr Naomi Fisher (02:48):
Okay.
So, oh, it's all my journey.
There are so many differentways of telling my story, but I
think one really importantaspect to my story is that I
moved around a lot as a childand I went to 11 different
schools, so I got a perspectiveon schools which I think is
quite unusual from the insideand a kind of I think, a

(03:10):
skepticism, even as a teenager.
I remember, as like 13 or 14,hearing the things that schools
said you know, this is the wayit must be, and knowing that
they hadn't said that in myprevious school and there was
this kind of hang on a minute,you're saying this is the way it
has to be.
I often talk about uniform, inparticular because I lived
overseas for a while.
I was at schools with nouniform.

(03:31):
Came back to the UK uniform allthe way, very strict about
uniform, to the point that youcould be sent home from school
if your uniform was wrong.
You know, and I was like, hangon a minute, the last school I
could wear whatever I wanted.
No one ever made a fuss aboutit.
Now you're literally measuringmy skirt to make sure it's the
right height and saying I've gotto have, you know, black socks,
not white socks.

It's hard enough to just police that like.
Lots of kids don't like thatand have had no experience of
what it could be like outside oftheir own school, let alone you
seeing it from one extreme tothe other.

Yeah, I think it's like a process of training,
isn't it?
I think of the whole schoolprocess is when we put children
in, when they're really small,you know, we four or five year
olds we tell them this is theway it is, it has to be like
this, and because they're soyoung, a lot of them just kind
of incorporate that this is theway it is, it has to be like
this.
And I think because I wasmoving around so much, that kind

(04:26):
of got broken every couple ofyears.
You know, it was like oh,actually, this isn't the way it
has to be, oh actually itdoesn't have to be, and I think
that was a really frustratingyeah, but I think you're really.
I think, in a way, I think itsaved me.
Actually, I think if I'd beenat, if we'd, if I'd been at one
school all the way through, I Imean, I had lots of difficulties
at school let's not pretendthat I didn't but I don't think

(04:49):
I would have made it through asintact as I did if I had been in
one consistent environment.
I think it was the fact that Iwas continuous novelty, that
kind of kept me okay with it,most of it, not with all of it.
But so talking about so it'stalking about my story into
psychology.
It's kind of interesting toobecause although I had this very

(05:10):
unconventional path throughschool, I did well at school.
I was a high achiever, I, and I,I think, like lots of people, I
made my choices based onachievement rather than
necessarily what I wanted to do,what I was interested in.
So I was very capable in mathsin particular.
And if you're a girl and you'regood at maths, I found that

(05:32):
everybody's like hooray a girlin the maths classes and it was
literally me.
I had to do these advancedmaths classes.
They would literally be me andeight boys and that was.
You know, we would be a littleelite extra maths group, but it
would be just I was the onlygirl, yeah.
So I got quite a lot ofreinforcement about that.
You know you should do thesethings because you are the kind

(05:53):
of pioneer, you're the persondoing it.
So I did physics, maths andchemistry when I did my I don't
know what you have in Australia,but at six form level I did an
international baccalaureate andI did physics, chemistry and
maths, even though I did reallylove maths and I still really
enjoy maths, but physics andchemistry were definitely not my
passion, you know it was likeme it was a hard slog, yeah, and

(06:17):
really looking back, I shouldhave I did do English actually
alongside it, but I should havechosen humanities or subjects
that I really got, but I didn't.
I wasn't making choices becauseI thought, because I wasn't
really thinking about me and mydecisions.
I was thinking what will get meon, what will I do well at,
what will be okay, you know whatwill be a career choice this is

(06:38):
the pathway that everyone tellsme I need to take because I've
got the ability exactly.
I've got the ability to do itand it is very.
It was very much like that.
The schools I was at.
It was like you know, if therewas a kind of attitude and I
remember picking up on it likeyou know anybody, it sounds so
awful.
Now anybody can do things likeEnglish, history, psychology.
In fact they're like softsubjects.

(06:59):
You know, hard subjects whichof course, are associated with
being male in many cases I thinkthat's not an accident either
hard subjects like physics andmaths and chemistry.
You know that's what you shouldbe doing if you can do it.
So I did that.
And then I went to university tostudy medicine, because I was
kind of on that path and I foundmedicine very, very hard work.

(07:20):
I didn't it didn't comenaturally to me at all.
I found human biology reallyhard to get my head around,
possibly because I hadn'tstudied biology at school.
I just done the chemistry andthe physics.
And then I was really lucky tobe at a university where we did
all the medical stuff that weneeded to do in the first two
years.
Then we had one year where youcould choose whatever you wanted
to do before you went on toclinical school.

(07:42):
So there's like a divisionbetween the university academic
bit of medicine, one year ofsomething else and then off you
went to clinical school whereyou would be in a hospital
learning how to actually be adoctor.
Yep, that year was the firstyear, I think, in my entire
education, bearing in mind thisis the third year of university
that I could choose somethingwith no consequences.

(08:03):
So it was the first time Icould just choose what I might
be interested.
It didn't matter.
I had a friend who did Chinese.
You could really do rightanything in that year.
It was amazing.
It was amazing.
You could just go along andjoin the cohort and do it this
is actually blowing my mind.

I'm just actually thinking.

I don't think I've had a moment ever in any of
that's been the case where thatwas an option yeah, it was
amazing, it was really lucky andI think it's unusual, like most
other places, most of theuniversities, if they give you a
year like that, you have to dosomething kind of related to
medicine.
So you know you have to go anddo extra physiology or extra
biochemistry or something likethat.
But they were really like us.

(08:42):
No, you've passed exams youneed, partly because they worked
so hard in those first twoyears.
You've passed all the exams youneed.
You've got this year to dosomething that you're interested
in.
So and I did psychology and itwas just like a revelation.
It was like my goodness,learning can be so much more
interesting than what I've beendoing all these years.

(09:03):
And I remember it just beinglike a kind of almost like a
fire being lit, like I couldn'tstop thinking about it and
making connections and I wasreading all the stuff just for
my own pleasure.
You know, I was just.
I just really couldn't getenough of it and I only had this
one year and then off I go tobe a doctor.
So I decided that I wasn'tgoing to go off and be a doctor,

(09:25):
that I was going to drop out ofmedicine and take a different
path, and I went and did a PhDin psychology, so that's an
academic doctorate three yearsof learning how to do research.
Then I went on and did anotherdoctorate in clinical psychology
, which is supplied psychology,so that's how to use psychology
in mental health do you know?

what I love about that is that you know when
people find the path, eventhough they've been told to be
on a specific path to achievesome sort of success, and then,
like when I hear you talk aboutit so passionately, like when
you find the, the thing thatlights you up yeah, and it is
exactly that you couldn't stopyour learning.
You couldn't, you just wantedto consume it.

(10:07):
And I often think about thatconversation and this.
I wasn't going to take it tohomeschooling yet.
Um now conversation, but oftenabout We'll do homeschoolers,
we'll get into university, andhaving so many conversations
with people who work atuniversity and they say, no, we
love homeschoolers, or we loveit when people are in our course

(10:29):
and they want to be there andthey're the ones asking the
curious questions and they'relearning what they want to learn
.
And you know, when I think aboutevery single person who did my
course going through university,when I did my education
graduate, diploma they were likethey were so rare.

People weren't there.
I know, I agree, that's what Ithink too there were people like
that, and you know I was at areally elite university so you'd
have to work really, reallyhard to get there.
You couldn't get there byaccident, but even so and I mean
, I don't think anybodyexplicitly pressured me to go
down the path I went down no, Ithink before it was just kind of

(11:10):
in the atmosphere.
But also, I think what happenedto me now, thinking back as a
psychologist, is that and Ithink this happens to children
in the school systemunfortunately is that from very,
very early on we tell childrenin the school system what you
really want to do and whatyou're interested in is less
important than what we, as yourteachers, think you should be

(11:31):
doing and want you to do.
And we're going to take a lotof your time you know really a
lot of your time and energy andwe're going to insist that you
do the things we think are mostimportant.
And the stuff that you think ismost important, that kind of
gets pushed to the margins.
And I think we do thatparticularly in childhood,
because the interests andpassions of childhood are things

(11:53):
that generally adults dismissas trivial.
You know young kids like so tosort of up to 12, they're really
interested in Pokemon orthey're really interested in
Minecraft or they're reallyinterested in, you know,
dinosaurs or all sorts of thingswhich adults are like.
Oh you know, you'd be muchbetter off doing phonics or in

(12:15):
maths, something productive.
So we set up that thing rightfrom the start where we say to
kids don't listen to your ownkind of internal drive of what
you really love.
And I even think with myself.
I was a passionate reader froma really early stage, which gets
you lots of approval in theschool system.
I was reading when I went toschool and I was always with a
book, always with a book.

(12:35):
And even that one of mymemories from primary school was
them saying that I should beencouraged to read nonfiction
because I was reading fictionand I should be encouraged to
read more challenging books.
So there was always a kind ofwhat you're doing isn't good
enough, it's not enough, youshould be doing something else.
And actually, when I think backto what they pushed me to read,
like when I would say 10 and 11,I was encouraged to read things

(12:58):
like Jules Verne and CharlesDickens, like really weighty
classics, and it completelyturned me off them.
I have never read them since,like, and I waited my way
through these books and I waslike you know.
So I think by the time I got to16 and 18, when I was making
these decisions, I just reallydidn't know what.

(13:18):
I firstly didn't really knowwhat really interested me, but I
also didn't value whatinterested me because I had been
kind of trained to.
Yeah, everybody had said, youknow that you don't trust your
own drive, don't trust your own.
And certainly I would neverhave chosen psychology, say, at

(13:39):
sixth form, because psychology Iremember psychology being seen
as a lesser, a lesser option, asoft subject.
So I would have even ruled outthat opportunity to discover
then that it could beinteresting by myself.
I would have done that.

Yeah, and I was just on that note too, about how
unimaginative we like I eventhink of myself when I was
teaching how unimaginative weare when it comes to jobs and
what potential there is outthere, you know, like lawyer,
doctor, you know yeah, kidsdon't know.
And then I see the most amazingcareers that people are making

(14:15):
these days and I like it bringsme so much joy to just be like
look at what you can do.
Like there is like blowing mymind that people are making
money and making a life, andmaking a joyful life, and making
a difference in people's livesin careers that I would never
have guessed still get blownaway.

(14:35):
Someone gets paid to do that.
That is so awesome and so itjust makes me so happy when I,
when people of our generationfound something back then, like
you know for you to have nothave spent too much time before
you found that thing that lityou up so sorry I interrupted
you, but you were saying aboutyeah, you went into psychology

(14:57):
and you found it.
You loved it, yeah, yeah, youcan keep going from there.
I'm just loving this, yeah.

So, yes, I did my PhD, which was in
developmental psychology,especially about autism.
Then I did my clinicalpsychology doctorate, which is,
you know, how to use psychologyin an applied way with people,
and I'm a clinical psychologist,so I really specialize in
mental health and looking afterpeople's mental health.
Then I got out into the world,the world work of world, world

(15:24):
of work, and and then and then Ihad my own children.
So my children are now 15 and12.
Yeah, and as my children grewtowards the age that they would
have gone to school as my son,who's the elder one, I felt
increasingly uncomfortable withthe disconnect between what I

(15:47):
had learned about childdevelopment at all in all my
degrees and life psychology andwhat I read and what I saw
happening in schools.
And I particularly feltuncomfortable with the way I
mean certainly the removal ofagency and autonomy from
children and how we think that'sacceptable.
We think that school is soimportant that it justifies

(16:09):
taking that kind of control overtheir lives away from children,
and also the way that it tooklearning out of context so that
we you know, I had these smallchildren.
I was a lot of time with mysmall children.
I saw how they learned.
I saw how everything theylearned was in context.
They learned things because itwas useful to them right now.
Like you know, they learned howto read words like yes and no

(16:32):
because that was useful.
Or they learned how to read theword free because that was
useful.
They didn't.
They didn't learn stuff becauseit will be useful later.
And from a child developmentperspective that made a lot of
sense because actuallyneurologically that capacity to
do things because it's going tobe useful later is actually
quite late to develop.

(16:54):
You know, I think they'refinding now.
The neuroscience studies arefinding that there are massive
changes in brains from likeadolescents, basically from 1011
onwards, and one of the thingsthat's coming in at that point
is the ability to set goals, theability to control yourself,
the ability to actually say toyourself OK, I would like to.
You know, I would like to playthe piano.

(17:16):
So I'm going to startpracticing the piano and even
though I can't play the pianonow, I really want to be able to
play the piano and so I'm goingto spend time doing it.
So it's that kind of thinkingI'm not going to, I'm not just
doing the thing that reallygives me most joy right now.
I've got this kind of delayedgoal.
But we do that to children inschool.
We bring them into school andwe say you need to be able to

(17:38):
learn to read at a point whenthey are not yet interested,
right, therefore, I don't knowhow old they are Australia, here
they are at four or five.
We've got kids who generallyaren't that interested in
reading yet, because they canlive a perfectly good four or
five year old life without beingable to read, and we say to
them reading is really important, you've got to learn it and
we're going to pull it to partand we're going to make it into

(17:59):
the little constituent part.
So we're going to teach you allthese little parts and it's all
going to add together and thenyou're going to be able to read.
And it's like that is socognitively so far away from
where these kids are and it'sgoing to make learning more
difficult.
That's why I started to think.
I thought the way that schoolis organized is going to make
learning more difficult.
It cannot not make learningmore difficult.

And that's what I found so fascinating in your
book, because you started outstraight away by saying that the
school system is not based onlearning theory at all.
It hasn't been designed tomaximize learning.
So what principles have theydesigned the school system on?

I think originally they designed it on
the system that we've got quitea lot of kids that we want to
keep off the street and we don'twant to be there.
We're not allowed to.
You know, they can't workanymore because they brought in
child labour laws and we need tofind somewhere for them to be
and somewhere for them to belooked after in quite large
groups.
So I think a lot of it isconvenient.

(18:58):
So a lot of it is.
We've got these kids.
We can't have too many adultstaking up.
It's expensive to have adultslooking after them, so one adult
to 30, okay, we can do that.
And then it's like what it'skind of.
We're doing what we've done fora long time and I think I think
there's a process that goes onat school where you learn that

(19:20):
this is the way learning has tobe, and so you come out of
school convinced, even if youdid badly at school.
In fact, I often find it's thepeople who did badly at school
who are the most convinced thatthis is the way it has to be.
And if I didn't do well in it,it's my fault, not the school's
fault.
You know it's because I didn'twork hard enough, I was lazy, I

(19:40):
didn't put the effort in.

And that is still the conversation we're having
that everyone is blamingeverything but the system.
It's like the child's fault.

It's the teacher's parents, lazy parents,
not making them school ready,exactly.

And we have all these like little infights and
all of these conversationsaround those three things and it
never stays, or even not evenfor long enough, on the actual
system itself.
And it is so incrediblyfrustrating because I just think
not only is it the problem,it's causing more problems that

(20:16):
are being amplified as we go on.
I think as children and asadults, we're coming through
that system and a lot of us arechallenging it, which is why a
lot of us did it out, and sowe're all grappling with these
ideas and still having like.
I know I'm so in like because Ihomeschool my children as well.
So 100% in my conviction, likeI believe it, but I still have

(20:41):
to push past the ideas ofcertain things.
That was really interestingwhen you said before around the
age of 10 or 11, do childrenstart to think about that future
, like you know, being able toset goals and it's just been
making a reflection because myoldest is 11.
And one of the things I reallystruggle with sometimes is the
fact that she doesn't want tolearn things now, like she likes

(21:05):
the idea of it, but not enoughto fit and want to actually
achieve a goal, and that'sreally bothered me and I've
always flow between she's notready yet, blah, blah, blah.
But it helps so much tounderstand developmentally where
they're at and it also helps totalk to those people who are a
few steps ahead of me, which hasbeen one of the best things for

(21:25):
me as well, to be like.
My child was there too and nowwe're starting to see changes.
Yeah absolutely.
And also reminding myself thatI've learned so much since
starting our business.
It's been one of the bestlearning experiences that I have
loved every minute of in my 30sthat learning doesn't stop.
No because you've come out ofchildhood or teenage years

(21:49):
doesn't stop.
And then there isn't a timelineor a deadline where we're so
time bound like it has to happennow.

I know, yeah, yeah, absolutely, and I was
there too.
I also had that same likelooking at my kids when they
were prepubescent and looking athow, yeah, they were exactly
like that.
They wanted to be able to dothings, but they didn't want to
go through the process oflearning how to do things, they
just wanted to be able to dothings.
They gave up really quickly.

(22:16):
They would try something andthen they'd be like no, not me.
And I would be like how arethey ever going to do this
differently?
Because I think, like everybodywho's at school believes, I
certainly believe that that'ssomething you learn at school.
You have to be taught at school, and teachers will say that we
have to make them do this sothat they see the point and so
that they learn, and I justthink that's I now think that's

(22:39):
completely misguided.
I don't think that's how thatshift happens and I've seen it
so many kids now, because it issuch a massive advantage to
actually have teenagers who'veseen the process happen.
But I've seen that kind ofshift and with both of my kids I
first saw it with bicycleriding that when they were
younger they both couldn't ridea bicycle and they just weren't.

(22:59):
Well, they wanted to be able toride the bike, but they didn't
want to be able to learn.
They didn't want to learn howto ride the bike because they
didn't want to do all thefalling off stage and the
practicing stage, they justwanted to be able to ride the
bike.
And then, when they were bothabout nine, three years apart,
it was like something justswitched on and I remember my
son be like I'm going to learnhow to ride that bicycle and he
just put on long sleeves, longtrousers, went out every day

(23:22):
onto that driveway we had adriveway outside our house fell
off the bike fell off the bike,fell off the bike, fell off the
bike for like two full days.
And then he was like I can rideit now.
And he could.
And my daughter had a totallydifferent process three years
later.
She was like I'm not going tofall off, you are going to come
behind me and hold me up thewhole time.
Okay, she said, you just holdthere, you don't let go, we're

(23:45):
going to do it.
And we did do that and actually, similarly, in about two days
she learned how to ride thebicycle and it was like once
they got that idea and it wasthere.
It wasn't you know, and I hadworried about this.
I was like, maybe what happensif they never learned to ride
bicycle?
But once I could see that theywere doing that with the bicycle
, I was like, okay, I can see itcoming and it's going to happen

(24:07):
for all sorts of other things.

Do you want to know?
One of the other stories thatyou talked about in the book
which really struck with me waswhere you talked about immersive
learning, and so you talk aboutyour the fact that immersive
learning is messy and it's notneed a predictable, and you use
the example of your daughterlearning French, Like so you
must have moved.

Yeah, we went to France for two years.
So actually when I wrote thatfirst book we were actually
living in France.
They went to a democraticschool in France for two years,
a Sudbury school.

And so so you were saying that she, you know, like
you didn't have proper Frenchlessons, she's just immersed.
Never.
Totally.
Yes, yeah, and it's like, it'slike pulling in.

I think of it like pulling in information when
you're immersed in something,it's like you're pulling in bits
and you're making them fittogether, but you're it's a
completely different system towhat it would be like to say,
learning French at school, whereyou go along and they say you
know, today we're doing Bonjour.
And the funny thing is thatshe's now 12.
And she's just started atanother democratic school here,

(25:10):
actually down in Devon, where weare, and the first day or so
the other kids are learningFrench.
And they went in and they andthe first thing was was Bonjour.
And she came back and said Icannot believe they don't know
Bonjour, and it was like shehasn't had that experience of
having to learn a language inthat way at all.
She said, in fact, no one eversays Bonjour, they just say

(25:31):
salut.

Yeah, it was really interesting.
I thought because the way yousort of said it like if you
learn French in a veryconventional way, you learn, you
know greetings and certainthings, but actually if you're
immersed in it, she might haveactually learned the word for
Wi-Fi password before actuallyAbsolutely Exactly.

You learn what's useful.

Well, that's useful.
And then you were saying, liketo see whether someone knows
French.
They would have to, they wouldgo through an examination
process, and so your daughtermay have failed a written test
or a you know whatever way theywere assessing it, but
contextually she would be ableto have a conversation with
people in France, which is thewhole purpose of learning the

(26:17):
language in the first place.
And yet that process is notgiving you the outcome you think
and telling you accuratelywhether something's being
learned.
And that was just like mindblowing as well, like you know.
You know, when you put it inthose examples, I was like that
is exactly what we do.
We make it sound like we knowwhat needs to be learned and
going to assess what needs, whatwe think is being learned,

(26:39):
which is completely different.

Yes To what you feel it is, and with French
it's with a language.
It's so obvious because you canlearn a language for five years
.
You can get an exam.
I tell the children about itall the time.
I have a GCSE in German and Igot an A in it when I was 16.
I don't think I can even puttogether one sentence in German

(27:03):
now.
I just absolutely cannot.
But we pretend that this isalmost a superior way of
learning.
That you know.
The people said to me thingslike oh, what about when they
properly learn French?
It's like they are properlylearning French.
Yeah, you know what will theydo when they're learning it
really at school?
It's like that's not how youreally learn anything, and I

(27:25):
think it's so obvious with alanguage, but it's the case with
everything really Like.
If I think about myself andpsychology, I think the reason
that I really got intopsychology and I would still say
I'm learning psychology all thetime is because I immersed
myself in psychology.
I loved it so much that Iimmersed it myself in it.
It wasn't because the teacherstold me information that was

(27:45):
really useful and I've retainedthat.
I don't remember what I learnedin my psychology lectures at
university.
It wasn't about that.
It was about this kind ofimmersion in ideas and making
connections.
And yeah, that wouldn'tnecessarily be reflected well in
an exam at all.
And yeah, I don't know if theother thing about a French, I
think so my son has now actuallyso he's the older one, he's

(28:06):
actually just done a GCSE inFrench at 15.
And that was a reallyinteresting process for me
because it was the first timehe'd ever done any kind of
formal examination and he wasvery like yeah, yeah, yeah, I'll
go in there, talk French, youknow, be fine.
But when we went in there tohave like the mock exam at the
school, they were really focusedon how are you going to get

(28:26):
your points?
You know, you need to say this,you need to say this, you need
to say this.
And I was like, wow, this isn'tabout speaking French at all,
it's about doing the things,that going to get you the points
in this oral exam.
And my son just started to looka bit kind of like what is this
about?
And I would say to you, you doneed to say more.
Because he said you said well,you know what about?
If she asked me the question, Ianswered the question and I

(28:48):
would say well, because it's anexam, it would be good to then
expand on your answer, you know,to show them that you can speak
a bit more French than that.
And he was like well, why wouldI want to do that?
I've answered the question andit's just like he's thinking
about this in a completelydifferent way.
He's just thinking about thisas well.
You know, I've actuallyspeaking French as opposed to.

I'm trying to get my best yeah exactly.
Isn't it fascinating?
And so I have a question thatI'm curious to know your take on
AI and how this is going tochange the face of assessment.
Because I met a guy the otherlike two weeks ago at a
conference and he said he'dwritten his 8000 or maybe 16,000

(29:25):
word thesis through AI and AIwas able to accurately write
about his personal experiencewith just a few products and he
did his whole thesis on it.

Wow, but he did his thesis on that, presumably,
rather than simply generatinghis thesis and handing it in.

Yeah, so I think he used it obviously to prompt
certain things, and he must havebeen put enough of his personal
information, but it was meantto be a personalized, like his
experience working inhospitality, or I remember him
saying well, how do you do that,though?
Like how do they not know?
It's AI?
He goes that it was so accuratein my experience, like it was
able to generate my ownexperience so accurately Wow, it

(30:05):
was just.
I mean, we've been having thisconversation amongst a lot of my
home schooling friends who arealso teachers.
Yeah thinking about how, how, aiit emerged so quickly.

Yeah.
How is it, yeah, in educationreally interesting is there, and
I think we don't know.
But I think one thing thatInterests me about AI and about
how it's getting talked about inschools Is a lot of it is about
well, kids are going to usethis to cheat, kids are going to
use this to game the system.
Basically, and for me assomeone as a self-directed

(30:39):
learning enthusiast, I Guess myquestion would be if you're
doing the learning for yourselfand because you're interested in
it, why would you want to gamethe system like I'm writing my
book right, maybe if I spent abit of time thinking about it, I
would be able to get my get AIto write this book for me.
But why would I do that?
Do you see what I mean?
Because you only do that if youset up this system of, we are

(31:02):
going to assess you on thesequite rigid criteria and your
job really is to, like in theFrench exam, to get as many
points as you can.
It's not actually about thelearning and I think I talk
about this in that in my firstbook as well that the Shift from
your learning for your own sake, because you really want to
know and you're reallyinterested At which point AI

(31:22):
might be useful because youcould ask it some questions, but
but it's not going to replacethat.
And when, when you're at thepoint of I'm learning, because
somebody else is going to judgeme for it and they're going to
give me a score for it, and thatis really only reason why I'm
doing it, in which case it makesperfect sense to use AI.

If you could, yes, but it's, it's gaming, the
system and the system has tochange, right, if that yes, it
does that they have to decide.
Well, you know, I guess it'smaking us really consider
Whether the assessments we havebeen asking children to do,
whether they could cheat on AIor not- yeah.
I have any point.

Yeah, I think.
If I can do it, why are wetraining kids to do it?
Right, that's right.
What's the point of trainingkids to do it?

Yes, so it's going to make us be very, very clear
about what outcomes and whatlearning actually looks like.

Yeah, I think it could be good, yeah, no, I
think it really does challengeus and it challenges us to think
about why kids are doing things.
And if we are setting up asystem where cheating Is an
obvious thing to do, then peopleare going to try and cheat.
You know, if we're setting up asystem I mean, we see this just
across the board, don't we like?

(32:37):
There's scandals all the timeabout people cheating to get
into things, cheat peoplecheating to Sell stuff, people
just if you set up a systemwhich rewards, which which kind
of puts outcome over processthat's how I would put it.

Yes, absolutely, and I think.

I think it's such a mistake in education to
put outcome over process.
I think you know I can see howin the workplace that that might
well be something you need todo, but in education I just
don't see a reason why we shouldmake Everything so outcome
focused, because when we do thatwe shift the focus for the kids
, for the teachers, for theparents, for Everyone from what

(33:17):
am I doing to I've got to showwhat I'm doing and be judged on
it.

That's right.
So it's like Sorry, what theskills we need To do school well
, as opposed to skills.
I need to learn what I need to.
Yeah.

And to discover my passions and what really
interests me and processes messy.
It's like immersive learning.
You can't track it nicely, itdoesn't look linear.
You know you can't say alleight year olds should be doing
this.
You have to.
But I think the weird thing isthat I think that lots of people
know this and I think thepeople who know this most Are
actually early years educators.

(33:52):
Yes, because we do have a placein our education system where
Self-direction, autonomy, isvalued.
We do have a place where theadult job is to be available to
curate the environment, toprovide opportunities for young
people.
And the young people are theones who choose how they do it
and they can stop when they wantto.

(34:12):
And you know no one isgenerally going to say right,
you've got to have two hours ofwater play today, two hours of
sand about box tomorrow.
You know you are allowed tocome and go from things as you
want.

And actually those early years teachers that are
having to tune more into thatpsychology, like they're
actually there to help with theemotional process and the
emotional learning as opposed tothe academic learning, and
there's that, you know, andthey're battling, it's not
valued.
Yeah, they have to battle toremind the powers that be that
that's actually their job, thatthe academic part of things is

(34:45):
not their job as early educators.
It's actually to help them withtheir emotional you know
intelligence and learning how tobe human.

Yeah, and it's there for learning how to be
creative, how to solve problems.
All of that stuff Happens muchmore in a self-directed learning
environment, like a goodnursery school, that it does
when you sit children in rowsand control them and tell them
you've got to do these things.
And I think I think it'stragedy that what's happening in
our education system, at leastin the uk, is the principles of

(35:14):
Secondary of being extended downinto primary and the principles
of primary of being extendeddown into early years.
So I would like it to be on theother way.
You know, if early years wasinforming the whole of primary,
yes, rather than it beingactually in early years, you
really should be getting on withletting them to learn that read
, read and write their names andget you know.
It's just like why?

(35:35):
Why do we?
We don't?
There's no evidence that it'sbetter to do it earlier.

That's right, that is, and that's the thing.
There isn't the evidence, andyet we're still battling with
people who are coming up withall of the Rules for the game
without any evidence to supportit, and I think that that is a
really frustrating place to beFrom people who are so desperate
to see things change.
And what happens is, I think, alot of people end up you know

(35:59):
all these good people who cansee what the right thing to do
is end up going.
You know what?
I'm just going to do my ownthing with my own family.
Yeah, so you're not listening.

Because it's so frustrating.
Yeah, yeah, loads of teachersexactly loads of teachers.

You see it from the inside, 100%.
You're talking a lot aboutautonomy, which is something is
so important, but one of thethings and and this is a bit of
a theme that's been coming upfor me a lot lately is but
helping children to say no, likethis is something that we
actively need to help childrento do, and I think on is

(36:31):
probably a separate topic, butalso learning to hear no as well
.
For me, like yeah, that's likehearing no from other people and
being gracious and hearing thatno, but also being able to say
no in themselves as well, tohonor their feelings.

Yeah, I think it's a really interesting thing.
I write quite a lot about this,actually about how we tend not
to value children's nose orvalue their yeses, and so we
always value participation overnon participation, for example,
or Going somewhere over notgoing somewhere, or staying
somewhere for a long time, asopposed to saying after an hour,
actually, no, I've had enough,I don't want to do this anymore.

(37:08):
Um, and I think we have toactively kind of make those nose
Visible.
I talk about it sometimes asit's like giving permission to
children to say the no, so justsaying things.
So sometimes I talk about itlike scales.
It's like when parents saythings to their kids.
Often there's a kind ofimplicit, hidden loading of I
really want you to say yes, youknow, like, would you like to

(37:30):
come and write, read a storywith me?
Is that a real balancedquestion?
Or is it Come and read a storywith me if the child says
something like no, I'd ratherplay Minecraft?
That's definitely thedisappointing answer there for
the parent.
So I think the parent has toyet literally try and balance
those things up and say you know, we could read a story, but we

(37:51):
don't have to.
Other things could be good aswell.
So that you're kind of Showingthem you know, like all we could
go out to the park, but also wecould stay here and curl up on
the sofa.
That would be good too.
So you're kind of showing themthat you're not, that it's okay
for them to own that, and Ithink you know I definitely see
myself as someone who found itvery difficult to say no, and I

(38:12):
still find it difficult to stay.
No, um, and one of the thingsthat I see in my children,
having not ever had theexperience of being put in a
setting where they couldn'tleave and where they had to stay
they're really good at leaving,yeah, really good at saying no.
Wasted my time off, I go andI'm kind of like, oh you know
you've stayed there for a bitlonger.

(38:32):
No, they say yeah, I learnedenough.
Yeah, I think it's so hard as aparent.
You hear that you go sort of gogulp Yep, is that really okay?
We've gone all this way forthis group and now you're saying
that don't think it's for meand are they giving up too early
, all of that kind of stuff.
But I also I think one thingthat can help the parents is
that, firstly, you kind of Valueyour kids nose as much as their

(38:55):
yeses, but as well you don'ttake their noses completely
closing a door, because I thinkthere can also be a thing that a
child might say no to somethingone time for so many reasons.
Right, one of it might be theirown kind of internal autonomy,
but another might be really highanxiety, Unfamiliarity with new
places, all sorts of reasonsmight mean a child say no and I

(39:17):
think it's important that thatdoesn't close down opportunities
.
Each time.
So I do meet parents are likeoh you know, we went to the soft
play, they said no, so don't goanymore.
Went to the playground, theysaid no, we don't do that
anymore.
And it's like your world isgetting smaller and smaller and
smaller and actually the job asa parent needs to be to making
it bigger and bigger and biggeras they grow, and so I think
that kind of needs to be afeeling.

(39:39):
Well, you know, we say no today, but maybe we'll do it tomorrow
.
And I think the other way to dothat is to make your own
feelings visible, your owninternal feelings visible, so to
talk about your internalprocess.
You know like, well, I wasthinking about doing this, but
then I thought actually, no, I'mnot going to do it today, but
maybe I'll do it tomorrow, doyou know?
I mean so you kind of yeah,great that for them, so they can

(40:01):
see it.

Yes, I think I've also had to learn, um, to be
honest about why, like you know,when I have tried to push in
times where they've done that,where they've said no, when I'm
like oh yeah and happy to bereally honest and be like you
know what, sometimes I feel thesocial pressure, like I feel
like, yeah, this is my thing,this is what I'm carrying, yeah,

(40:22):
why I may have said things that, um, yeah, made you feel like
you had to make a differentchoice, or made you probably
shamed you a little bit into.
Yes, this is how, this is whatit was feeling.
That's what I was feeling likeat the time.

Yes, I think that's really helpful because
otherwise you can't be neutral,because children pick up on it,
that's right, they know and youcould pretend that you don't
feel the social pressure.
But I think also, just alwaysmaking these things visible is
good.
So if you can say you know Ifeel like everybody's looking at
me about this one, but that'sokay, I can sit with that,
that's right.

(40:58):
Yeah and and kind of own it.
And kind of own it and say youcan still make that decision,
you can still say no, eventhough for me my Temptation is
to try and push you into sayingyes, absolutely.

Um, I'd like to jump a little bit to
homeschooling parents and peoplethat are starting their
homeschooling journey.
What do you think are some ofthe main assumptions that we
take from our own schoolingexperience and our own idea of
what education looks like whenwe first try and do something
different.
Jump yeah, take the road lesstraveled.

(41:30):
What are some of the mainassumptions that parents might
have that can make things?

So I think many parents have the assumption
that they will do somethingquite school-like at home and
that that's what successful homeschooling or home education
looks like that you need to havea certain number of hours a day
.
And I think most parents Ithink all parents maybe carry
the assumption that if you don'tmake children do things, there

(41:58):
are things they'll never learn.
And therefore I meet parentswho say things like well, you
know, we just have to covermaths and English because that's
really important and so we'regoing to make them do that.
And I have a kind of oppositeperspective because basically,
if I think something's reallyimportant, then I absolutely
don't want to force them to dothat, because I feel like
wherever I make them do it, Idamage the learning.
So I want to provideopportunities without the

(42:22):
pressure, because the pressurekills the love of learning.
But I think yeah, I think manyparents and I think also parents
often have a kind of time scalein their heads of when you
should do things, because that'swhat happens in the school
system.
So I certainly had that when Ibegan.
Like you know, they learn toread in the UK at age five or
six in the school system.
So I'm like you know.
Okay, what if they haven'tlearned to read when they're

(42:44):
five or six and they didn't?
My kids didn't learn to readwhen they were five or six and
what you know help.
Does that mean we're reallybehind?
Does that mean I'm being reallyneglectful?
And I think that kind oftracking of the school system is
quite hard to get away from.
Certainly I had to reallyconsciously step away from
tracking what kids might havebeen doing in the school system,
because they are in one systemof education and they are being

(43:07):
taught a curriculum and it'seasy to see that and think, oh,
my kids aren't doing anythinglike that.
Look, they're still likeplaying on the trees all day and
these kids are like writingessays.
How does that happen?
You know this sort of gap and Ithink that when I started out I
did believe, I did think thatwe would have a kind of extended

(43:28):
play base stage, like in someeducation systems, say, like
Montessori or Steiner, have alonger play base stage where
they might do play up to sevenor eight.
And then I thought, you know,at that point maybe my children
would be more ready for moreformal learning or become more
like kids in the school system.
And what I didn't anticipate wasthat the longer we were out of
it, the more different they gotthan the kids in the school

(43:48):
system.
So, like at seven and eight, itwas like there's absolutely no
way that we would be going intothe school system now.
It would just not work on anylevel and of course they hadn't
gone through that training and Ithink that you have to be ready
for that.
I think child development looksreally different.
That's another thing I talkabout in my book that when I
learned about child developmentand I've read loads of studies

(44:08):
on child development they neversay this is child development in
the context of school, becauseschool is invisible, it's just
accepted.
Like when I did my PhD, I sawhundreds of children.
I recruited them throughschools, so of course I saw just
school children.
It didn't occur to me I wasmissing any kids, because we're

(44:30):
kids they're at school right.
They're all at school.
They're all at school.
So, and when I saw howdifferently things could be when
my kids didn't go to school,maybe think, wow, there's this
huge invisible interventionthat's going on into children's
childhoods 30 hours a week,minimum every week, for like 12
or 13 years, which we don't seeas an intervention, we just see

(44:53):
it as natural, that's whatchildren do.
But actually, you know, whenthat doesn't happen, how do
children develop and I thinkit's different.

I find that that's actually one of the things I
find so fascinating and that'swhy I've been drawn to Peter
Gray's work and your work isthat, you know, thinking outside
of what has happened in thelast 200 years in terms of the
way that we've done things, andlooking at, you know, people who

(45:23):
have we've lived in the past,evolutionary wise, and how happy
, and also just looking at howmiserable the Western world
seems to be.

Yeah, really miserable, and telling everybody
else they should do it likethat.

Exactly, and it just gets so curious and I think
I really resonate with Carol.
Black uses that analogy aboutlooking at orcas in Seaworld and
saying that's that's what orcasbehaviour is like.

I really totally resonate with that,
absolutely yes.

And then it's completely different to orcas in
the wild, like yeah and cheeseand not.
It's almost like there aredifferent species.
When you compare, when youactually look at how they live,
they're totally different.
Yeah, resonated so stronglywith me.
Yes, thinking about children inschools?

Yes, absolutely .
And I think if you homeschool,there are like little surprises
all the way along.
I have still have this, likethings that I realise my
children aren't learning fromthe school system and how
different that is.
And when they were really young, it was just things like the
fact you go school Monday toFriday and not on Saturday and
Sundays.
That didn't.
They didn't see that, theydidn't learn that because you

(46:26):
know it was, but also justthings like we had this
conversation when they wereabout when my son was about
eight or nine about clever andwhat clever meant.
We were with a group of schoolkids and they were saying you
know, oh, yes, they're reallyclever, or they're really clever
, but you know they're dyslexic,so they struggle with reading.
And I was like, well, this wayof kind of classifying people is

(46:47):
so pervasive in the schoolsystem and so completely not
there in my children's world.
Yes because they're not comparedwith their peers all the time
on how they perform on academictasks.
They have no idea how theirfriends might do in a maths test
.

I mean?
I mean, kids do care about age,but they don't care about age
at the same time, like they careabout you know, I'm older,
you're younger, but then that sofalls away and they're not
comparing.
They're only comparing, likethe actual number age, but not
where they are and what they do,like a five year old will
oftentimes, you know, seethemselves as such an equal to a

(47:25):
10 year old or a 15 year old inso many ways True.
Yeah, nicky, my business partnerdid a post about we had our
homeschool photos done at one ofour co-ops and she said like it
gave her goosebumps having alook at the photos of all of the
children just wearing and beingwho you know, bright hair
everywhere.
Yes, Not brush hair bright hair,wearing whatever like clothing

(47:49):
that I couldn't imagine, Ididn't think being comfortable
wearing.
If I was at school and none ofthe children have any idea that
us, as parents, are sittingthere like having a moment over
their school phone, they're justlike, oh yeah, whatever, like I
don't even understand photosand we're all just like, oh my
gosh.
I believe this freedom that youget to experience in your life,

(48:10):
you have no idea of the stuffthat you're like.
you know, we often worry aboutwhat they won't, what they're
missing out on, what they needto learn, and also like, as you
say, what are they?
What is the benefit of notlearning some of the things that
children at school will learn,that is absolutely.

Yeah, I think about that a lot when you look
at a group of home-ed kids, howdifferent they all are and how
much more different they arethan if you look at a group of
school kids, where they're allsitting in, they're all being
made to look the same, theydress the same, sit the same, do
the same thing, and you knowyou have your group of home-ed
kids and even if there's classgoing on, you're always going to

(48:51):
have someone who's under thetable.
You're always going to havesomeone who's hanging upside
down from a chair or on a tree.
You're always going to havesomeone saying no, it's not for
me.
You know they.
You've got like diversity rightthere in every group and I
think it's just amazing and Ithink one of the things that got
me thinking really early onactually as well, was seeing how

(49:12):
lots of behaviors that mychildren and other children I
knew had when they were youngchildren and when they were
young children they wereaccepted that they would have it
like you know, just things likejumping up and down when they
got excited you know, they gotexcited, jump up down hooray,
hooray, hooray.
Move your hands around, whatever, show it with your whole body.
Then I could see kids goinginto school and quite quickly

(49:32):
they weren't doing that anymoreand they were starting to sort
of.
And I remember we met up withone child, one other child who
we'd known before school, andthen she'd gone to school and my
son was jumping up and downwith excitement, waving his
hands around and making noisesand she said why is he doing
that?
And I was like he's excited.
That's what he does when he'sexcited.
And you know, a couple of yearsago they would have both been

(49:53):
doing that and they're excited,but she had now been put into
this environment where thatwasn't acceptable and she was
learning that it wasn'tacceptable.
And the fact that these otherkids, these home educated kids,
weren't learning that, I think,was something quite special
actually about them being ableto express themselves and to
continue to express themselves.

So then, naomi, what do you think we could be
doing right now?
What can we, what can parentsdo right now, or teachers be
doing right now to make changes?
Do you have suggestions?

So there are some teachers trying to bring in
more autonomy at some points,and I think you can do that.
If that's well, it depends onyour school.
I think you really do need to besupported in some ways by the
school, but there are inspiringstories of some teachers who
have prioritised differentthings in their classroom rather
than it being all about theseresults in the curriculum, and

(50:47):
it can just be really basicthings like giving children free
choice about what they writeabout, or just adding little
bits of autonomy, or taking outgrading of some things, so
saying you know, we're going todo this and there's research
that shows that.
When you say to kids, you knowwe're going to do this and I'm
going to grade you at the end ofit, versus we're going to do

(51:08):
this and we're just doing itbecause it's interesting, you
can choose it because it'sinteresting, they do it
differently, and the one that'sjust interesting they generally
do to a higher quality, which iskind of the reverse of what we
think right.
We think, oh, they don't takeit seriously unless they're
graded.
But I think we train childreninto that.
We teach them that it's onlyserious if it's graded, and then
we turn around and say, oh,they only take things seriously

(51:30):
if they're graded.
It's the kind of thing whereyou know children say is it
going to be on the test?

Yes, we train them into that.
Yes.

We teach them that it's only really important
if it's on the test, and then weblame them when they say I'm
not going to do it unless it'son the test.
Well, you set that up really.
So I think as teachers there'sa kind of can I bring in things
where assessment is not the aim,and I think it's easier
actually the younger they are,because the closer they are to
being played or into a play.
It's hard with 13 and 14 yearolds.

(51:57):
I do think it's really hardwhen they've got, when they've
had 10 years in the system forparents.
I think you can do stuff afterschool where you step away from
this model.
You know, often kids will bespending all of their time doing
structured activities which areoutcome focused.
So even if they do extracurricular stuff, it'll be music
lessons where they'll beworking towards an exam, or

(52:18):
they'll be doing art lessonswhere it's about producing art
for the exhibition, even thingslike drama classes.
My daughter did some dramaclasses and I just thought it
would be fun for her, but it wasall about the end of term show
actually.
And it was all about practicingfor this end of term show.
Everything becomes aboutoutcome and I just think we
really need to get our kids tobe doing stuff where it's about

(52:40):
process for as long as possibleand giving them opportunities to
do stuff where it's aboutprocess and where we're saying
it doesn't matter.
And not just saying that,because often parents will say
it doesn't matter how you doyour exam, let's just not do
these exams, let's just you know, if you want to play an
instrument, let's just play thatinstrument.

Yeah, I guess in examining too.
Like we say it doesn't matter.
But how else are we saying thatit matters?
Like yeah.
I'm a new fact that we may nothave come out of our mouths.
But is there other ways inwhich we have been reinforcing
that idea?
Of course there is.

Yeah, I mean just the exams, just the whole
way they're done, says thismatters, don't they Like you go
to a special room, you have tosit in a special place, you have
to perform in a special way,there's a special person who's
the examiner, everything is setup to.
This is important.
This really matters.
I think it gives children areally mixed message If you put
them through that well, sayingwe don't mind what you get, well
, why are you doing it?

(53:33):
Then yeah, doesn't you know?
Why not just say, oh, we don'thave to do that, let's just play
.
And if they want to do it, thenthat's okay.
But then I would, as a parent,not be very focused on how they
do it, making the practice forit.
I sometimes meet parents say,well, they really want to do
that exam.
So you know, now I have to makethem practice.
You don't, you know, they canjust do that exam.

(53:54):
What's the worst that canhappen?
They fail an exam.
Actually, failing an exam isquite a useful learning process
to go through.
And why not do it when you'reyounger?
People sometimes say to me,when they're talking about
autonomy and choices, I can'tlet my children make choices
because they make such badchoices, and I often say well,
you know what better time topractice making bad choices than

(54:17):
when you're nine?
Because you've got nothing atstake.
It's very unlikely you're goingto lose your home home, for
example, at nine, because ofyour choices, Whereas if you
don't get to make any decisionsuntil you're 23, which does
happen to quite a lot of peoplethen actually the consequences
are much, much higher.
And people.

(54:37):
We sort of spitting people outof the system who just don't
have much practice of makingdecisions, thinking things
through for themselves.
And the consequences for someof them are bad.

It's been such a great conversation, Naomi.
Thank you so much for giving somuch of your time tonight.
I am aware that we've beenchatting for a while.
Where can people find out moreabout your work or you have so
many great takes on things.
Where can people read and, youknow, follow along with your
ideas.

So my kind of one stop shop is my website
Naomi Fisher dot co dot UK.
It has links to my other socialmedia stuff, but I so I have
that.
I have two books changing ourminds is the one that we've been
talking about mostly today, andthen I have another one which
is a different way to learn,which is specifically about
neurodiversity and self threateducation.
And then I also have a substack, which is like a

(55:29):
newsletter that gets deliveredto your inbox every Monday.
So that's good for people whodon't like social media, because
it's just an email and it'sfree and that's called think
again Naomi C Fisher sub stackdot com and then Facebook.
Dr Naomi Fisher is my place.

I'll make sure we link all of those things in our
show notes so for anyone thatjust have somewhere to click and
find everything they'll be ableto, because I think that we
covered so many topics tonightand today was tonight actually
this morning for me, thismorning for you, tonight for me
and I think that they're sovaluable and I love having these
conversations with more peopleand hopefully, you know, just

(56:07):
inspiring people to think a bitdifferently about the way that
we've always done things, sothat we can have a bit more of a
brighter future for the nextgen.

It's.
It's been really great to talkto you.
Thank you for inviting me.
You're so welcome Well thereyou have it.

I hope you've enjoyed our conversation and I
also just want to note before Igo that, even if you're not on
the same journey as both Naomiand I in terms of self directed
educational homeschooling, Ijust hope that the points that
we discussed today reallyresonated and sparked maybe some
questions or some curiosityaround the way that we do things

(56:41):
within our education system.
And it's important to actuallysee what's happening and to hear
what's happening within thesystem, because we need to be
catering for all children andstart to really see and
highlight some of the problemsthat it has created, because we
need to have more childadvocates making noise for
change.
Now it's always.

(57:02):
I love doing this journey withyou, so until next time, stay
wild.

All Episodes

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

Stuff You Should Know

Dateline NBC

On Purpose with Jay Shetty

.css-15opob5{left:0;position:absolute;top:0.8rem;} All Episodes

.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Breaking Educational Boundaries with Dr. Naomi Fisher

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

.css-r6mb8g{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:1;overflow:hidden;}Stuff You Should Know

Dateline NBC

On Purpose with Jay Shetty

All Episodes

Breaking Educational Boundaries with Dr. Naomi Fisher

Stuff You Should Know