This is part one of a two part episode! You can find Part one over at The Forest School Podcast - we suggest you jump over and start there if you haven't listened to part one yet!
And don't forget to give them a follow on their socials here:
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What happens when educators step out of their comfort zones and embrace diverse perspectives? Get ready for an insightful and playful conversation with Lewis Ames and Gemma Southerden of the Forest School Podcast as we explore the journey of lifelong learning in education. We dive into the benefits and challenges of continuous professional development and reveal the importance of breaking free from our echo chambers. By engaging with diverse cultures we uncover how these experiences enrich our understanding and teaching practices.
Navigating discomfort and fostering meaningful conversations is a crucial part of professional growth. Together, we address the complexities of Australia's history and the fear of making mistakes due to white fragility. By promoting transparency and the willingness to ask questions, we discuss how educators
Ever wondered how to bring the magic of 'Nature Play' into your child's education? Or how to say goodbye to your worries about snakes and ticks? With Nature Play Now, crafting an epic outdoor program is easier than you think. You’ll boost your confidence, skill sets, and have parents eager to enrol. Join the adventure for just $57, exclusively for Raising Wildlings listeners. Visit our Raising Wildlings website for more details today!"
www.r Hey it’s Nicki here interrupting this episode to quickly say, if you’re like us and feeling torn between your career as an educator vs. your beliefs for child development, We’ve created a 5 step e-guide to unlock your purpose without compromising your values. This Treasure Map is completely free, takes ten minutes, and is available from our Raising Wildlings website. So dive in and s If you enjoyed this episode of Raising Wildlings. We invite you to check out Your Wild Business, our signature business course for education change-makers who are ready to create or refine their own nature play businesses. Your Wild Business is the only program that focuses on the business side of nature play, with sustainable practices, processes, and systems that will cut down your administration work, giving you more time to focus on building a business that is centered around your e Other ways we can help you:
1. Ready to create your own Nature Play business? Head to www.raisingwildlings.com.au/wildbusiness to access the roadmap to starting your business journey.
2. Keen to find your purpose in 10 minutes? Download our FREE treasure map to find your passion without compromising your educational values.
3. Want to know how to craft an epic outdoor program that has parents and directors lining up to enrol? You need Nature Play Now our $57 Workshop and Bundle series (people are saying th
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Right Today, we're doing things a bit differently.
Today's guests, lewis Ames andGemma Southerton of Children of
the Forest in the UK, host theirown podcast, called the Forest
School Podcast, being that we'reboth hosts, forest school
leaders and play workers.
Well, we took this opportunityto play.
So for today's episode to makeany sense, what you need to do
(00:21):
right now is actually pause thisepisode and go and jump over to
the Forest School Podcast tolisten to the first half of our
conversation together.
We're chatting all thingslifelong learning, particularly
the process, benefits andpitfalls of being lifelong
learners in education roles.
Then, when you finish listeningto the first half of our chat,
come on over and finish theepisode over here with us.
(00:42):
So off you go, enjoy youradventure with your UK hosts,
and I'll see you here shortlyfor the end of our chat.
Speaker 2 (00:52):
I'd like to acknowledge the traditional
custodians of the land on whichwe're recording today the Kabi
Kabi and Gubbi Gubbi people.
I would like to recognise thecontinued connection to the land
and waters of this beautifulplace we call home.
I also recognise Aboriginalpeople as the original cust and
waters of this beautiful placewe call home.
I also recognise Aboriginalpeople as the original
custodians of this land andacknowledge that they have never
ceded sovereignty.
I'd like to pay my respects toall Gubbi Gubbi elders,
(01:13):
ancestors and emerging eldersand any First Nations people
listening today.
Welcome to Raising Wildlings, apodcast about parenting,
alternative education andstepping into the wilderness,
however that looks with yourfamily.
Speaker 1 (01:27):
Each week, we'll be interviewing experts that truly
inspire us to answer yourparenting and education
questions.
We'll also be sharing storiesfrom some incredible families
that took the leap and aretaking the road less travelled.
Speaker 2 (01:41):
We're your hosts.
Vicki and Nikki from WildlingsForest School, pop in your
headphones, settle in and joinus on this next adventure.
Speaker 1 (01:50):
Hello and welcome to the Raising Wildlings podcast.
I'm your host, nikki Farrell.
Welcome back Now.
If you followed ourinstructions in the intro, you
will have just finishedlistening to the first half of
our conversation all about theprocess, benefits and pitfalls
of being lifelong learners ineducation roles over on the
Forest School podcast with Lewisand Gemma.
(02:11):
Now just a heads up that if youhaven't done that, then this
episode is not going to makemuch sense to you at all,
because what you're about tolisten to here is the last half
of our chat together.
So again, if you haven'tlistened to the first half,
please go and jump over to theForest School podcast.
But for now let's set a littlecontext.
Lewis Ames and Gemma Southerdenare both former teachers who've
(02:34):
gone into business together tofocus on what they're passionate
about giving children andfamilies meaningful learning and
play experiences in the greatoutdoors Sound familiar Since
becoming qualified forest schoolleaders and starting with a few
small groups.
Children of the Forest is now awell-loved part of the Mid
Devon community in the UK.
They also host their ownpodcast called the Forest School
(02:56):
Podcast.
So when Lewis came up with theidea of us experimenting a
little and both hosting half ofour interview each.
We jumped at the chance.
So, if you haven't already, thefirst half of this interview is
over on the Forest Schoolpodcast.
Speaker 3 (03:09):
but we are about to jump straight into the last half
of our interview now, so hopeyou enjoy I was going to ask
Nikki, one of the notes that Ihad was thinking about you know,
we're all pulling all thisinformation from different
places and all these kind ofdifferent topics and, like I
said about, like there's no realarea that you couldn't go kind
(03:32):
of super interested in this.
I was wondering about, like,whether we had any thoughts on
how we go about learning outsideof our own, like echo chambers
or algorithms, or like I knowfor mine that you know the way
that the online world kind ofworks is like the more you're,
there's a cat purring right intothe microphone.
Speaker 4 (03:51):
Sorry, luna, luna, go away.
Luna's like you're hard, it'skind of like having a so
relaxing.
Speaker 3 (03:58):
It was the loudest purr.
Speaker 1 (04:02):
It's the most calming noise, though, too do you know
cats have different purrs?
Speaker 4 (04:07):
I know that they can, they can when they're in like
real bad pain and stuff.
Yeah, and it helps them torecover.
Speaker 3 (04:13):
And then there's like a feeding purr and there's a
like I was listening to.
I think there's like sevendifferent types of purr, point
being what I was gonna say, whatI was gonna say was because
they thought that purring wasjust for humans.
You know, cats don't vocalizewhen there's no humans around.
But they do purr when there'sno humans around, so they're
like there must be somethingright.
(04:35):
Focus a minute, lewis um I wastrying to work.
Speaker 1 (04:39):
No, this is how we get our information connect,
connecting with like-mindedhumans yeah, but I'm not a
reliable source.
Speaker 3 (04:45):
Um, how do we, uh, how do we, how do we find things
out that are outside of our own, like echo chambers or bubbles
or algorithms or you know?
You can very easily online justbe shown like, look, I love, I
love the wildlings social media,but the amount of your stuff
(05:05):
that I get shown, mate, it'sfully in my algorithm.
And how do we go about?
Finding other bits, you know.
Speaker 1 (05:15):
Yeah, well, well done to our marketing team.
Well done, kerry.
Thank you.
I'm not sure you're our righttarget market, but that's okay.
You've at least got theinterest right.
Demographic location we're a bitoff Wrong country.
Oh, I know I hear you on thealgorithm and it's something I'm
(05:37):
really trying to teach my ownchildren and our own team
members as well, that weactively on our own social media
, go out and try and find onpurpose forest schools, you know
, run by people of colour, ofdifferent cultures, in different
countries, because SunshineCoast here is unfortunately very
(05:59):
whitey, whitey, whitey, very,very, very privileged.
We're quite a wealthy area inplaces around the Sunshine Coast
and we've got a really long andpainful history here with our
First Nations and Torres StraitIslander Aboriginal and Torres
Strait Islander people here,where what we do Forest School
(06:22):
we're colonisizers, we're stilloperating on stolen land here.
So if we don't contextualizewhat we're doing and if we don't
pay the rent, if we aren'tmaking connections with our
local mob here, you know whatare we doing, what are we even
doing.
So but if we don't activelylook for that outside of our
(06:43):
algorithm, we just get fed thesame stuff.
So that is what we try and doand we try and pay the rent.
Really, we hire, you know,people to come in and teach us
about culture, teach us aboutochre, teach us the stories of
our land, teach us about thelandmarks and the stories behind
them of the dream time.
But it can be difficult tobreak out of that algorithm.
(07:07):
How do you guys find it?
Speaker 3 (07:11):
Well, I think I try whenever I can to, if something
gets shown to me that is maybeslightly on the fringe of what
still within you know what myphone believes are my interests,
but it's on the fringe of whatstill within you know my what my
phone believes are my interests, but it's on the fringe of that
bit.
It's like I was shown somethingthe other day and it was so.
I think the link it had madewas about storytelling, um, but
(07:34):
it was actually showing me acouple who make a podcast about
pan-african mythology andstorytelling, and so I was like
that's interesting, that'spiqued my interest.
I'm gonna go to go off on thisentire tangent Now.
I'm going to follow as many youknow, I'm going to click
through hashtags that I can seein there and I'm going to go
that's so different and so likevalid.
(07:59):
I'm so glad that that exists.
I'm going to go find more outabout that stuff.
I think also one of the benefitsthat we have, uh and I I know,
nikki, you do some homemadegroups, so you might have a
similar thing, but, um, when Ithink you would agree that a lot
of what we end up doing is this, like with the kids
(08:20):
particularly is like thisreciprocal exchange of hyper
focuses where you sort of go,hey, here's all of mine.
And then the kids go, well,buckle up, because here's
pokemon.
And then you, you can ingestthat stuff.
Or someone comes in and goes,do you know what?
I live on a farm, on a studfarm, with a load of horses.
(08:41):
I go, wow, let's do that, thenlet's, let's go and tell me all
about that.
Let's set that thing up and likeor um, you know we have our
young families group and youknow I had a parent who's a
geological systems like backupthing.
He makes sure that in the eventof emergencies like flash
(09:01):
flooding and stuff, that powerstill gets to like the northwest
of the UK, and I was like, mate, tell me about that.
I didn't like sat down and wentlike this, is it you're just
going to tell me everythingabout your job now and all of
these things, because I have noframe of reference for this and
that's incorrect.
Do you do?
Do you do that?
You must do that one with theparents.
(09:22):
Oh yeah absolutely, absolutely.
Speaker 4 (09:25):
In terms of I love um people info dumping on me about
stuff that maybe I've neverheard of or it's never piqued my
interest.
I'm like I'm here for that.
I'd much rather have someonecompletely talk at me about
something that's interesting tothem than spend the same amount
of time going oh, it's niceweather, isn't it?
Oh yeah, I've got to pick up mykids later.
Oh yeah, oh god I wish I broughtthe washing in, because it's
(09:47):
going to wreck all that sort ofsmall talk.
I'd much rather have the likethe info rich stuff, even if
it's about something really leftfield.
I was also going to say, um, interms of kind of finding stuff
that's outside the algorithm, Iquite enjoy, uh, even though it
feels prickly sometimes engagingwith stuff that challenges your
practice.
So there's been um like thereare several practitioners who
(10:08):
write blogs about quitepolitical aspects of forest
school and education and there's, uh, just a new zine that's
come out recently.
So that's like actual, actualpaper.
You pay and you just pay forthe postage, and it's anonymous.
The people who are creating itare it's called ruderal, um, and
so I'll call that.
And, because it's anonymous,it's a forum in which people
(10:31):
should feel free to express,yeah, more challenging points of
view or questions thatchallenge the status quo.
And, um, it's about, yeah,forest school for kind of social
change.
So I really I enjoyed that andI'm so pleased to see things
like that springing up and Ireally want to kind of
contribute and help that it's sointeresting, isn't it?
Speaker 1 (10:56):
that I really love that idea of a forum.
That's anonymous because, likeyou said, the sticky the sticky
things come out.
And that's anonymous because,like you said, the sticky things
come out and that's really thenuts and bolts of what we should
all be talking about.
We need to get uncomfortable inour spaces because you know the
way we're set up.
(11:16):
Here we don't run mostly wedon't run out of schools or we
don't have a forest schoolattached to a nursery or whatnot
.
So a lot of us are privatebusinesses or we're run through
childcare centres or early yearsservices and a lot of people
will not touch these subjectsfor fear of being called out for
(11:38):
making a mistake.
And particularly, what I'mtalking here is about our awful
history and the way that we thengo about working on country.
Here we are going to makemistakes because there is so
much language that has been lost, there is so much history that
has been lost with our stolengenerations.
(11:58):
Here it is likely we're goingto make mistakes despite our
best efforts, and we can'ttiptoe around because of our
white fragility.
You know, worrying about beingtone policed because we've made
a mistake and you know we can'tbe gatekeepers to that knowledge
and I'm seeing a lot of thathere in Australia is that we're
gatekeeping the knowledge forfear of being called out for
(12:19):
making a mistake.
And I do feel like if there wasa more anonymous forum where
people could ask these questions, that these answers might come
out.
But at the same time that'swhite fragility.
I want to call that out andjust say ask the damn question,
ask the question and be preparedto be called out.
Speaker 3 (12:40):
There's another I'm going to call it a generous read
, but I don't think it's agenerous read.
I think it's just another view,view of the same thing, which
is, like you know, we've startedthis podcast by acknowledging
that we are people who work forourselves and we love that, we
love learning and we like, wevalue that super highly in our
not just our business lives, butin our personal lives as well,
(13:03):
and I think, sometimes, just inthe same way that we can like,
um, uh, lose sight of where ourparticipants might be and go oh,
I need to facilitate where youare.
There's also so many at leastin the UK, so many practitioners
who are um in spaces where theyeither don't have the physical
(13:27):
time, they don't have the mentaltime, they don't have the um,
the the capacity to engage ineither every issue, or to engage
in that cpd, or to engage inall those things that we, we
personally, value and have setup our lives in a ways that
means that we can.
I think there's also somethingabout like, how can we and and
(13:50):
for women either, podcast is oneof these ways, but it's like,
how do we who do have the timeuse that to extend it to people
who are in less um, who are setup in different ways, where you
can go look, you don't have, youknow, for the podcast.
For us, a lot of it is like look, we appreciate, not everyone
either can or wants to read thisenormous book about the
(14:14):
anthropology of childhood in youknow whatever else, but we can
chat about that in a silly wayfor half an hour and make that
accessible to people.
Now trying to think about, like, what other ways can we, as
people who are pushing differentissues or pushing different
learning, how how can we and youknow you have the raising
(14:34):
wildlings podcast and um and Inoticed as well you have some uh
like downloadable handouts andstuff on your website to help
people reflect on their practiceand stuff.
It's all those ways that we, asprivileged people in terms of
like learning, can help otherpeople with that yeah, that's so
(14:55):
true, and that's exactly why westarted the podcast too.
Speaker 1 (14:59):
You know we're getting so many calls, and I'm
sure you were the same.
I would love some help with xyz, and by the time I either
answer the phone call or answerthe email five or six times.
I think I should have justrecorded something and then we
went well, why don't we recordsomething?
And then it's there, and it'sthere forever, and it's there
for free for anyone, at no cost.
So thank you for creating aspace where you're really.
(15:22):
You know you are getting intosome really beautiful and some
at times uncomfortableconversations that people might
not want to have, exactly likeyou said, with their bosses and
with their managers.
They might feel confrontingabout approaching people about
these things, whereas if theycome armed with a bit of
information, it may help themhave those conversations to make
change.
So, kudos, I know it's a hardslog and I know it takes up a
(15:46):
lot of time, but I do think thework that you do is really,
really valuable.
Well, it's all come out ofarguing.
Speaker 3 (15:58):
I would love to say ours came from an equally
benevolent we should people wantour help, but actually it came
from Wem and I having differentthoughts on education and going.
Well, let's chew it out and seewhere we land.
And now, more and more it isabout.
You know, we're on the samepage by and large, but still
with enough, I think I would sayWem, with enough space that we
(16:20):
can say ah, I don't agree withthat wholly, or I?
I'm not sure you've interpretedthat.
In a way I would yeah,absolutely.
Speaker 1 (16:30):
Can I ask you then?
Can I flip the tables quicklyand say how did you two become
comfortable with havinguncomfortable conversations with
each other and disagreeing onwhat can be really deep-seated
values?
You know, education for somepeople is really deep-seated,
but a lot of people won't havethese.
You know, I wouldn't even callthem confrontations, but some
(16:52):
people would see them asconfrontations.
So is this a muscle that you'veexercised?
Do you just have the kind ofrelationship where it's like, ah
, bugger it, who cares?
I think it is.
How have you got to the placewhere you can debate?
Speaker 4 (17:04):
yeah, it's partly practice.
Yeah, just doing it and thenand getting emotional and then,
yeah, getting back on the horseand doing it again.
But also I think we've done alot of reading which has helped
our practice as forest schoolfacilitators but also helped our
(17:24):
communication with one another.
So, like reading, non-violentcommunication, reading about um,
declarative language, aboutways to communicate which are
less emotionally heightened, Iwould say, and ways about just
expressing about, you know stuff, about human needs, just going,
you know, I, I statements, Ifeel this when we discuss this,
(17:48):
I feel this when we'redelivering this kind of stuff.
You know, what do you think?
Would you be willing to do this?
So I think for me that's beenabsolutely invaluable.
I can literally remember havingread this is years ago now
having read Marshall Rosenberg'sLong and Violent Communication
book and then digesting that andthinking about it in terms of
our practice with the peoplethat we're working with at
(18:09):
Forest School, and then I can'tremember what we were discussing
, lewis, but it's probably a lotof our discussions have been
around like how we structure ourworking week, what sessions do
we want to deliver?
What are your family needs?
What are your personal needs?
What are the things you enjoy.
Do you want to continue withthis project, all those kind of
tricky business discussionswhich are because the business
is so personal, isn't it?
(18:29):
It's so interwoven with our owninterests, as we're talking
about.
So, oh, this is really floatingmy boat at the moment, so I
want to do more of that in ourday-to-day work, or, actually my
family really has this need formy time at the moment, so I
know that's not ideal for you.
All of those things aboutworking together, um, and I
remember going oh, I need totalk about this, this tricky
(18:51):
thing with Lewis.
I'm just going to refresh mymemory on, like the, the um, the
way that you would formulatestatements and uh vocalizations
through the nvc approach, andjust looking at those sentence
starters again, oh, I feel likea whole weight has come off.
Now I can kind of not rehearseand practice, but I can work out
what I formulate, what I wantto say, in a way that doesn't
(19:12):
feel threatening.
Hopefully, that doesn't feellike it's you know you are doing
this to me and, oh god, this isall wrong.
It's just like these are myfeelings and it's.
You know you can't.
Really it's not accusatory, isit to just go?
These are my feelings um.
Can you help me deal with it?
And I think that's worked bothways.
Would you say Lewis, that's.
Speaker 3 (19:31):
I think, yeah, definitely, yeah, absolutely.
And I think there have beentimes I can remember times where
, in order to use NVC properly,because of who we are, we had to
not put on silly voices butlike acknowledge that it felt
weird or silly ago, like I'mgoing to do, and so you just put
a little bit of a like, a bitof distance between yourself and
(20:00):
some earnestness to go.
You know this is it.
But also I think there issomething to be said for the
fact that um, from very early on, as well as being, you know,
practicing all this NVC andstuff, when I got very practiced
at um, discussing booksdispassionately, so that so you
(20:24):
can discuss a book in a way thatis not necessarily like here's
wholly what I believe you'relike oh why, why don't we engage
with this book?
And then, so, if you attack theif, if we go, well, that, but
in the book is a little bit crap.
There's one, there's one levelof removal from like you are a
(20:44):
crap person and so are yourbeliefs.
Do you know, like having havingacademia gives you some sort of
distance from those things, andlike that's not always the case
, do you know?
I mean, like, I just think thatis.
I think that was very valuableat the start, to be able to work
out where we were in terms of apedagogy by looking at
(21:05):
different pieces and going, well, do we want any of this in it,
or do we both what you know, dowe both want bits of this in it?
And that's way more, and Ithink that's true of then you
carry on and you just keephaving those conversations and
you keep having that kind oflike you know, oh, I've learned
loads recently about um playspace design.
Here's the play space designthing I've been reading.
(21:27):
What do we think about?
Incorporating some of that inis very different to.
I dislike how the woods is andwould like to change it.
You, know, those things landdifferently.
I don't know, do you and Vickyhave a similar thing, or what
muscles have you kind of workedon?
Speaker 1 (21:47):
Oh, it's hilarious.
We I think we are somehow twinflames or something, you know
sisters from other misters.
I don't know how it happened,but we are so similar in
personality, you know, we're sosimilar in our values and our
shadow values.
You know, one of our values isease.
So quite often if one personreally really wants something,
(22:09):
they'll get it because the otherperson can't be asked.
So it's a really oh, my goodness, it isn't.
It isn't because sometimes whenyou try and do things the easy
way, they don't work out becausethey need to be done properly.
Um, but I did, we both did nbcas well, and gosh, if I could
(22:31):
recommend one thing for allrelationships in your life, it
would absolutely be that.
But I love your little tipthere about putting on a funny
voice, because if something'svery serious in my life and I
think well, I do think that I'mgoing to have to NVC this, if I
say that to my husband I'mputting my NVC hat on, it's the
signal that this is reallyimportant to me and he knows
(22:52):
straight up okay, this isserious, there's something she
really needs and this is quitean emotional conversation coming
up, boom, it straightaway setsthe right tone, I think, as well
.
So even that, I think maybe thesilly little voice is the
signal that, right, this isserious and you know, be kind.
Speaker 3 (23:13):
I think NVC is not a very.
British thing to do?
It's not.
We come from a culture of beingvery sarcastic and very
underhand to each other, and youknow the way you you know, and
Australia, I think, has asimilar thing of you know, you
have some swear words that areaffectionate words and things
like this and you know, I thinkwe have a similar.
(23:37):
So I think when we do nbc itfeels really against.
Speaker 1 (23:40):
It's like against my heritage to be authentic and to
talk about feelings it is, youknow, but I think we've been
raised to avoid all those.
You know, if it's feelinguncomfortable, let's make a
silly joke and, you know, easethe atmosphere.
So, yeah, I it is very good, Ithink, to set that tone and be
all right, it's time to be, youknow, be vulnerable, be
(24:03):
authentic.
Speaker 3 (24:04):
Maybe don't be sarcastic right now until right
at the end when you need tobreak the tension and go okay,
we're back in the room now.
Uh, you know, to get that thinggoing, let's hug it out.
Well, we're not huggers.
Speaker 1 (24:26):
Mum and I have a yearly hug, I think that's about
it, poor Vicky and we dooccasionally go.
Speaker 3 (24:30):
That's my break in.
The tension at the end is quiteoften we will hug and then go.
That's it for this year, justso you know.
Speaker 1 (24:36):
Yeah, I hope it was worth it I'm dragging poor vicky
into the hugging, the poorthing.
I'm trying to respect herboundaries more, but she seems
to be much more open to it.
Speaker 3 (24:51):
So it's a value of ease if you want to hug, it's
just easy can you tell us um,that's just easier to take it.
Speaker 4 (24:59):
Can you tell us about shadow?
You just mentioned shadowvalues.
Can you tell us about that?
Speaker 1 (25:03):
I'm intrigued vicky, taught me about it, actually,
and I will have to get to youthe book that she got it from,
because it was a book, I believe.
Um, so generally we have ourstrengths and ours might be
playing to our strengths, really, isn't it?
(25:24):
So then, if you have a thinkabout, I guess people might say
one of my great attributes isthat I'm very easygoing, I'm
very easy to get along with, butif you flip that, you flip that
the other way.
Part of that is because I'mlike I can't be bothered.
You go, you do it, you do ityour way.
(25:46):
I actually I don't care, or Ido care but I can't be asked.
So that can be a shadow value,because sometimes maybe I do
care but I can't be bothered, ormaybe I can be bothered but I'm
not caring enough when really Ishould care and I should put
the effort in.
And I find in small business,sometimes with the I'm not sure
how you guys go with this, butmy the hardest thing I find in
(26:08):
small business is the constantbarrage of decisions.
All day, every day, I'm makingdecisions for myself, for my
family, for our team members,for our families that come to
Forest School, and so sometimesI just go whatever, and then
three months later I go.
I really wish I had saidsomething then, because now I
care, but at the time I just Icouldn't be present.
(26:31):
So if you think about yourgreatest strength generally,
there's an underlying shadowvalue to that as well, and I
think it's really interesting toexplore that and the reasons
behind it.
Mine's probably I'm burning thecandle too much and I probably
need more rest and moreself-care time.
That way I've got moredecision-making energy to, to
participate in these things andand speak up when I probably
(26:53):
care a little bit more.
You know, and I'm not speakingup when I should.
Yeah, do you think the decision?
Should we?
Should we see what yourstrengths are?
I was gonna say should I askyou what your strengths are and
see if I can find a shadow value?
Speaker 4 (27:07):
oh, god, that sounds terrifying.
Um I don't.
Speaker 1 (27:11):
I'm not sure I could, by the way is it?
Speaker 4 (27:13):
does that come from Carl Jung?
Is it a Jungian thing?
The shadow self?
I don't know.
I feel like I've heard of theshadow.
Speaker 1 (27:19):
I haven't actually read it yeah, okay, she read out
a bunch of the strengths andsaid pick them.
And then I picked one.
She's like that's hilarious, athat's as well, which is we both
know it.
Which I think makes ourrelationship quite easy in a way
is that we both do go with theflow.
We both don't mind, you know,unless it's something we care
(27:41):
really deeply about.
Sure, if you want to pursuethat, go nuts.
Yeah, I'll have to get that foryou, but I'll send it to you so
we can both pop it in the shownotes.
Speaker 3 (27:50):
Brilliant yeah to get that for you, but I'll send it
to you so we can both pop it inthe show notes.
Brilliant, yeah, great.
Yeah, I was gonna ask do yougot?
Do you, nikki, have a similarthing to me?
You know, talking about thatlike decision fatigue and things
where you go well down the line.
I wish I had come into that.
Sometimes there are thingswhere, like because my you could
almost see it as like the toolin my toolbox is learn more,
(28:15):
right in quotes, that's the wayI solve things is learn more,
and so there's also I think it'snot maybe a shadow thing.
It's like the other side ofthat sword of like, well, I can
always learn more, which is that, well, I haven't learned enough
is is like the flip side ofthat, which is like any problems
(28:35):
that come up or difficultthings are like I don't
understand why this is happening.
Always come with this tinge oflike you could learn more, yeah,
okay, sometimes that's great, Iget to learn more, and
sometimes it's like, oh, I'llnever.
You know, I'll never be done,which is good and bad, isn't it?
Speaker 1 (29:01):
Yeah, and there's a level, and I would say Vicky's
got a bit of that too.
Is me talking about it whenshe's not here?
Please feel free to chime in atanother time.
Vic and she openly talk about.
This is the perfectionism aswell, and so there's that learn
more, but at what point?
And it's almost like I think wetalked about this over email.
Lewis is similar to a healingjourney.
(29:23):
At what point are we healed?
We're never healed.
We've never learned everything,we've never fully healed.
And you meet those people thatare continuously on a healing
journey, always, always healing,and they've never actually
there is no end point.
So what is it that we'reavoiding?
Is it the conflict?
Is it the confrontation?
Is it just?
(29:44):
It's a really boring task and Idon't want to do it.
So there is always a flip side.
I don't know whether they'regood or bad, I just think they
are.
You know, I don't think we needto label them good or bad or
even shadow value.
I think it's just like you said, there's two sides to a sword.
Speaker 3 (30:02):
And that's probably to do with more, and then to go
full circle right back to thestart, where we were talking
about like that way ofintrinsically learning being
joyful that knowing that, uh,you've there's more learning to
be done cuts very differentlywhen you think of learning as
great, intrinsically motivatedthings.
(30:24):
I'm interested in the idea ofthere's always more to learn
lands differently.
If your education experiencehas been, you know, didactic
lecturing and stuff you weren'treally interested in, then the
idea of, like, you need to learnmore is going to hit so
differently.
Do you know what I mean?
Speaker 1 (30:46):
Yeah, and to flip that again, if we're talking in
a business sense, if there's atask I don't want to do but I
could learn more, it's probablybecause, again, I'm avoiding the
decision, because I don't wantto make a wrong decision.
It could be about pricing, itcould be about, you know,
there's something there thatit's if I learn more, I will
feel better about this decision.
And so then, there's not that,whether it's a rejection from
(31:08):
somebody, whether it's, you know, because there is on the flip
side of perfectionism, there'soften a rejection, not disorder.
What am I trying to say?
Sensitivity isn't it?
Speaker 4 (31:21):
No, I don't know what you mean.
I don't know what you mean,Nikki.
I've never heard that before.
That's just rubbish.
Speaker 1 (31:29):
I didn't sign up for this therapy session today.
As I'm speaking this, I didn'tsign up for this therapy session
today.
As I'm speaking this, I didn'tsign up for this Did you know my
side hustle is no, but I thinkit's so interesting how so many
of us, as business owners, areperfectionists as well or are
recovering perfectionists, andthat rejection is really
(31:49):
difficult when sales isessentially what we do and none
of us would call it that becauseall of us hate sales.
But it is bottoms on seats,puts bread on table.
It's a simple equation andthat's not why any of us are in
it either.
That's the other hilariousthing.
But ultimately we have to getover that rejection to do what
(32:12):
we love.
Speaker 3 (32:14):
Do you want to know a great way of getting over the
rejection I saw it the other dayof someone said oh well, you,
you say you're a perfectionistname.
Three things you've doneperfectly.
Speaker 1 (32:26):
Oh my God, I'm not.
Speaker 3 (32:29):
I'm not at all.
Speaker 1 (32:35):
But I think business has been the best thing for mine
.
I would say I'm not aperfectionist anymore.
I would say I'm recoveringbecause I don't have time.
It's, you know, done is betterthan perfect, because I cannot
physically do all of the thingsI need to do in a work and
homeschool my children and be ayou know, a loving wife and keep
up my friendships and and andand.
I just have to get things donesometimes and not as perfectly
(32:58):
as as I want them to be.
So yeah, lifelong learning.
Speaker 4 (33:03):
Lifelong learning.
Speaker 1 (33:04):
Yay, business is way more fun than we've made it out
to be.
We promise.
Speaker 3 (33:13):
Well speaking of Nikki.
I'm very appreciative of yourtime, but people that have
listened to this and they wantto find out more about wildlings
and what you guys are up to.
Where can people head to?
Speaker 1 (33:25):
Head to our website.
It's wildlingsforestschoolcomor our socials.
We're Wildlings Forest SchoolAU because, believe it or not,
there's a Wildlings ForestSchool in the UK as well.
We found that out when we keptgetting emails at some point
from the UK people saying can wejoin your program?
I said, oh, are you on holiday?
(33:45):
Are you vacationing?
Yeah?
So yes, don't forget the AU onour socials, but we'd love to
see you.
And likewise, where can we findout more about you guys and
hear your story?
Speaker 3 (33:57):
Well, we're on theforestschoolpodcastcom or you
can find out about what we'reup to out in the woods.
If you search anywhere childrenof the forest and you have to
put UK, because there's achildren of the forest in
Indonesia.
Speaker 1 (34:12):
Oh, no way.
So there we go, thesynchronicities Exactly.
Speaker 3 (34:20):
Amazing the global world.
Speaker 1 (34:22):
Isn't it a phenomenon ?
Speaker 3 (34:23):
Thank you so much for chatting with us.
It's been very, very fun.
It has, and I'm sure we willhave to find some time in the
future to chat with Vicky aswell, when you guys have got a
bit more time.
Speaker 1 (34:36):
Yes, I can't wait to see what the next topic is.
This has been really fun totalk outside and beyond and a
little bit deeper into what wedo.
So thanks so much for having me.
I really appreciate it.
Speaker 4 (34:46):
Thanks, nikki, great to meet you.
Speaker 1 (34:58):
What fun and what a great reminder to myself to
continue to experiment and havefun in all areas of my life.
You might've noticed that we'vebeen pretty quiet around these
parts lately.
We've had a bunch of family andbusiness things going on in the
background amongst all of ourtravel, and keeping our mojo and
trying to commit the timethat's required to put this
podcast together has felt reallyhard for the first time since
(35:18):
we started this podcast.
So a big thanks to Lewis andGemma for re-energizing me, and
particularly in this space,because it's given me the
kickstart to start recordingagain, and it was just such an
absolute pleasure to connectwith such like-minded business
owners and chat to anotherbusiness partnership in a
similar field, doing such asimilar journey together.
(35:41):
How validating.
Hope you enjoyed this new andexperimental episode and until
next week, stay wild.
Right Today, we're doing things a bit differently.
Today's guests, lewis Ames andGemma Southerton of Children of
the Forest in the UK, host theirown podcast, called the Forest
School Podcast, being that we'reboth hosts, forest school
leaders and play workers.
Well, we took this opportunityto play.
So for today's episode to makeany sense, what you need to do
(00:21):
right now is actually pause thisepisode and go and jump over to
the Forest School Podcast tolisten to the first half of our
conversation together.
We're chatting all thingslifelong learning, particularly
the process, benefits andpitfalls of being lifelong
learners in education roles.
Then, when you finish listeningto the first half of our chat,
come on over and finish theepisode over here with us.
(00:42):
So off you go, enjoy youradventure with your UK hosts,
and I'll see you here shortlyfor the end of our chat.
Speaker 2 (00:52):
I'd like to acknowledge the traditional
custodians of the land on whichwe're recording today the Kabi
Kabi and Gubbi Gubbi people.
I would like to recognise thecontinued connection to the land
and waters of this beautifulplace we call home.
I also recognise Aboriginalpeople as the original cust and
waters of this beautiful placewe call home.
I also recognise Aboriginalpeople as the original
custodians of this land andacknowledge that they have never
ceded sovereignty.
I'd like to pay my respects toall Gubbi Gubbi elders,
(01:13):
ancestors and emerging eldersand any First Nations people
listening today.
Welcome to Raising Wildlings, apodcast about parenting,
alternative education andstepping into the wilderness,
however that looks with yourfamily.
Speaker 1 (01:27):
Each week, we'll be interviewing experts that truly
inspire us to answer yourparenting and education
questions.
We'll also be sharing storiesfrom some incredible families
that took the leap and aretaking the road less travelled.
Speaker 2 (01:41):
We're your hosts.
Vicki and Nikki from WildlingsForest School, pop in your
headphones, settle in and joinus on this next adventure.
Speaker 1 (01:50):
Hello and welcome to the Raising Wildlings podcast.
I'm your host, nikki Farrell.
Welcome back Now.
If you followed ourinstructions in the intro, you
will have just finishedlistening to the first half of
our conversation all about theprocess, benefits and pitfalls
of being lifelong learners ineducation roles over on the
Forest School podcast with Lewisand Gemma.
(02:11):
Now just a heads up that if youhaven't done that, then this
episode is not going to makemuch sense to you at all,
because what you're about tolisten to here is the last half
of our chat together.
So again, if you haven'tlistened to the first half,
please go and jump over to theForest School podcast.
But for now let's set a littlecontext.
Lewis Ames and Gemma Southerdenare both former teachers who've
(02:34):
gone into business together tofocus on what they're passionate
about giving children andfamilies meaningful learning and
play experiences in the greatoutdoors Sound familiar Since
becoming qualified forest schoolleaders and starting with a few
small groups.
Children of the Forest is now awell-loved part of the Mid
Devon community in the UK.
They also host their ownpodcast called the Forest School
(02:56):
Podcast.
So when Lewis came up with theidea of us experimenting a
little and both hosting half ofour interview each.
We jumped at the chance.
So, if you haven't already, thefirst half of this interview is
over on the Forest Schoolpodcast.
Speaker 3 (03:09):
but we are about to jump straight into the last half
of our interview now, so hopeyou enjoy I was going to ask
Nikki, one of the notes that Ihad was thinking about you know,
we're all pulling all thisinformation from different
places and all these kind ofdifferent topics and, like I
said about, like there's no realarea that you couldn't go kind
(03:32):
of super interested in this.
I was wondering about, like,whether we had any thoughts on
how we go about learning outsideof our own, like echo chambers
or algorithms, or like I knowfor mine that you know the way
that the online world kind ofworks is like the more you're,
there's a cat purring right intothe microphone.
Speaker 4 (03:51):
Sorry, luna, luna, go away.
Luna's like you're hard, it'skind of like having a so
relaxing.
Speaker 3 (03:58):
It was the loudest purr.
Speaker 1 (04:02):
It's the most calming noise, though, too do you know
cats have different purrs?
Speaker 4 (04:07):
I know that they can, they can when they're in like
real bad pain and stuff.
Yeah, and it helps them torecover.
Speaker 3 (04:13):
And then there's like a feeding purr and there's a
like I was listening to.
I think there's like sevendifferent types of purr, point
being what I was gonna say, whatI was gonna say was because
they thought that purring wasjust for humans.
You know, cats don't vocalizewhen there's no humans around.
But they do purr when there'sno humans around, so they're
like there must be somethingright.
(04:35):
Focus a minute, lewis um I wastrying to work.
Speaker 1 (04:39):
No, this is how we get our information connect,
connecting with like-mindedhumans yeah, but I'm not a
reliable source.
Speaker 3 (04:45):
Um, how do we, uh, how do we, how do we find things
out that are outside of our own, like echo chambers or bubbles
or algorithms or you know?
You can very easily online justbe shown like, look, I love, I
love the wildlings social media,but the amount of your stuff
(05:05):
that I get shown, mate, it'sfully in my algorithm.
And how do we go about?
Finding other bits, you know.
Speaker 1 (05:15):
Yeah, well, well done to our marketing team.
Well done, kerry.
Thank you.
I'm not sure you're our righttarget market, but that's okay.
You've at least got theinterest right.
Demographic location we're a bitoff Wrong country.
Oh, I know I hear you on thealgorithm and it's something I'm
(05:37):
really trying to teach my ownchildren and our own team
members as well, that weactively on our own social media
, go out and try and find onpurpose forest schools, you know
, run by people of colour, ofdifferent cultures, in different
countries, because SunshineCoast here is unfortunately very
(05:59):
whitey, whitey, whitey, very,very, very privileged.
We're quite a wealthy area inplaces around the Sunshine Coast
and we've got a really long andpainful history here with our
First Nations and Torres StraitIslander Aboriginal and Torres
Strait Islander people here,where what we do Forest School
(06:22):
we're colonisizers, we're stilloperating on stolen land here.
So if we don't contextualizewhat we're doing and if we don't
pay the rent, if we aren'tmaking connections with our
local mob here, you know whatare we doing, what are we even
doing.
So but if we don't activelylook for that outside of our
(06:43):
algorithm, we just get fed thesame stuff.
So that is what we try and doand we try and pay the rent.
Really, we hire, you know,people to come in and teach us
about culture, teach us aboutochre, teach us the stories of
our land, teach us about thelandmarks and the stories behind
them of the dream time.
But it can be difficult tobreak out of that algorithm.
(07:07):
How do you guys find it?
Speaker 3 (07:11):
Well, I think I try whenever I can to, if something
gets shown to me that is maybeslightly on the fringe of what
still within you know what myphone believes are my interests,
but it's on the fringe of whatstill within you know my what my
phone believes are my interests, but it's on the fringe of that
bit.
It's like I was shown somethingthe other day and it was so.
I think the link it had madewas about storytelling, um, but
(07:34):
it was actually showing me acouple who make a podcast about
pan-african mythology andstorytelling, and so I was like
that's interesting, that'spiqued my interest.
I'm gonna go to go off on thisentire tangent Now.
I'm going to follow as many youknow, I'm going to click
through hashtags that I can seein there and I'm going to go
that's so different and so likevalid.
(07:59):
I'm so glad that that exists.
I'm going to go find more outabout that stuff.
I think also one of the benefitsthat we have, uh and I I know,
nikki, you do some homemadegroups, so you might have a
similar thing, but, um, when Ithink you would agree that a lot
of what we end up doing is this, like with the kids
(08:20):
particularly is like thisreciprocal exchange of hyper
focuses where you sort of go,hey, here's all of mine.
And then the kids go, well,buckle up, because here's
pokemon.
And then you, you can ingestthat stuff.
Or someone comes in and goes,do you know what?
I live on a farm, on a studfarm, with a load of horses.
(08:41):
I go, wow, let's do that, thenlet's, let's go and tell me all
about that.
Let's set that thing up and likeor um, you know we have our
young families group and youknow I had a parent who's a
geological systems like backupthing.
He makes sure that in the eventof emergencies like flash
(09:01):
flooding and stuff, that powerstill gets to like the northwest
of the UK, and I was like, mate, tell me about that.
I didn't like sat down and wentlike this, is it you're just
going to tell me everythingabout your job now and all of
these things, because I have noframe of reference for this and
that's incorrect.
Do you do?
Do you do that?
You must do that one with theparents.
(09:22):
Oh yeah absolutely, absolutely.
Speaker 4 (09:25):
In terms of I love um people info dumping on me about
stuff that maybe I've neverheard of or it's never piqued my
interest.
I'm like I'm here for that.
I'd much rather have someonecompletely talk at me about
something that's interesting tothem than spend the same amount
of time going oh, it's niceweather, isn't it?
Oh yeah, I've got to pick up mykids later.
Oh yeah, oh god I wish I broughtthe washing in, because it's
(09:47):
going to wreck all that sort ofsmall talk.
I'd much rather have the likethe info rich stuff, even if
it's about something really leftfield.
I was also going to say, um, interms of kind of finding stuff
that's outside the algorithm, Iquite enjoy, uh, even though it
feels prickly sometimes engagingwith stuff that challenges your
practice.
So there's been um like thereare several practitioners who
(10:08):
write blogs about quitepolitical aspects of forest
school and education and there's, uh, just a new zine that's
come out recently.
So that's like actual, actualpaper.
You pay and you just pay forthe postage, and it's anonymous.
The people who are creating itare it's called ruderal, um, and
so I'll call that.
And, because it's anonymous,it's a forum in which people
(10:31):
should feel free to express,yeah, more challenging points of
view or questions thatchallenge the status quo.
And, um, it's about, yeah,forest school for kind of social
change.
So I really I enjoyed that andI'm so pleased to see things
like that springing up and Ireally want to kind of
contribute and help that it's sointeresting, isn't it?
Speaker 1 (10:56):
that I really love that idea of a forum.
That's anonymous because, likeyou said, the sticky the sticky
things come out.
And that's anonymous because,like you said, the sticky things
come out and that's really thenuts and bolts of what we should
all be talking about.
We need to get uncomfortable inour spaces because you know the
way we're set up.
(11:16):
Here we don't run mostly wedon't run out of schools or we
don't have a forest schoolattached to a nursery or whatnot
.
So a lot of us are privatebusinesses or we're run through
childcare centres or early yearsservices and a lot of people
will not touch these subjectsfor fear of being called out for
(11:38):
making a mistake.
And particularly, what I'mtalking here is about our awful
history and the way that we thengo about working on country.
Here we are going to makemistakes because there is so
much language that has been lost, there is so much history that
has been lost with our stolengenerations.
(11:58):
Here it is likely we're goingto make mistakes despite our
best efforts, and we can'ttiptoe around because of our
white fragility.
You know, worrying about beingtone policed because we've made
a mistake and you know we can'tbe gatekeepers to that knowledge
and I'm seeing a lot of thathere in Australia is that we're
gatekeeping the knowledge forfear of being called out for
(12:19):
making a mistake.
And I do feel like if there wasa more anonymous forum where
people could ask these questions, that these answers might come
out.
But at the same time that'swhite fragility.
I want to call that out andjust say ask the damn question,
ask the question and be preparedto be called out.
Speaker 3 (12:40):
There's another I'm going to call it a generous read
, but I don't think it's agenerous read.
I think it's just another view,view of the same thing, which
is, like you know, we've startedthis podcast by acknowledging
that we are people who work forourselves and we love that, we
love learning and we like, wevalue that super highly in our
not just our business lives, butin our personal lives as well,
(13:03):
and I think, sometimes, just inthe same way that we can like,
um, uh, lose sight of where ourparticipants might be and go oh,
I need to facilitate where youare.
There's also so many at leastin the UK, so many practitioners
who are um in spaces where theyeither don't have the physical
(13:27):
time, they don't have the mentaltime, they don't have the um,
the the capacity to engage ineither every issue, or to engage
in that cpd, or to engage inall those things that we, we
personally, value and have setup our lives in a ways that
means that we can.
I think there's also somethingabout like, how can we and and
(13:50):
for women either, podcast is oneof these ways, but it's like,
how do we who do have the timeuse that to extend it to people
who are in less um, who are setup in different ways, where you
can go look, you don't have, youknow, for the podcast.
For us, a lot of it is like look, we appreciate, not everyone
either can or wants to read thisenormous book about the
(14:14):
anthropology of childhood in youknow whatever else, but we can
chat about that in a silly wayfor half an hour and make that
accessible to people.
Now trying to think about, like, what other ways can we, as
people who are pushing differentissues or pushing different
learning, how how can we and youknow you have the raising
(14:34):
wildlings podcast and um and Inoticed as well you have some uh
like downloadable handouts andstuff on your website to help
people reflect on their practiceand stuff.
It's all those ways that we, asprivileged people in terms of
like learning, can help otherpeople with that yeah, that's so
(14:55):
true, and that's exactly why westarted the podcast too.
Speaker 1 (14:59):
You know we're getting so many calls, and I'm
sure you were the same.
I would love some help with xyz, and by the time I either
answer the phone call or answerthe email five or six times.
I think I should have justrecorded something and then we
went well, why don't we recordsomething?
And then it's there, and it'sthere forever, and it's there
for free for anyone, at no cost.
So thank you for creating aspace where you're really.
(15:22):
You know you are getting intosome really beautiful and some
at times uncomfortableconversations that people might
not want to have, exactly likeyou said, with their bosses and
with their managers.
They might feel confrontingabout approaching people about
these things, whereas if theycome armed with a bit of
information, it may help themhave those conversations to make
change.
So, kudos, I know it's a hardslog and I know it takes up a
(15:46):
lot of time, but I do think thework that you do is really,
really valuable.
Well, it's all come out ofarguing.
Speaker 3 (15:58):
I would love to say ours came from an equally
benevolent we should people wantour help, but actually it came
from Wem and I having differentthoughts on education and going.
Well, let's chew it out and seewhere we land.
And now, more and more it isabout.
You know, we're on the samepage by and large, but still
with enough, I think I would sayWem, with enough space that we
(16:20):
can say ah, I don't agree withthat wholly, or I?
I'm not sure you've interpretedthat.
In a way I would yeah,absolutely.
Speaker 1 (16:30):
Can I ask you then?
Can I flip the tables quicklyand say how did you two become
comfortable with havinguncomfortable conversations with
each other and disagreeing onwhat can be really deep-seated
values?
You know, education for somepeople is really deep-seated,
but a lot of people won't havethese.
You know, I wouldn't even callthem confrontations, but some
(16:52):
people would see them asconfrontations.
So is this a muscle that you'veexercised?
Do you just have the kind ofrelationship where it's like, ah
, bugger it, who cares?
I think it is.
How have you got to the placewhere you can debate?
Speaker 4 (17:04):
yeah, it's partly practice.
Yeah, just doing it and thenand getting emotional and then,
yeah, getting back on the horseand doing it again.
But also I think we've done alot of reading which has helped
our practice as forest schoolfacilitators but also helped our
(17:24):
communication with one another.
So, like reading, non-violentcommunication, reading about um,
declarative language, aboutways to communicate which are
less emotionally heightened, Iwould say, and ways about just
expressing about, you know stuff, about human needs, just going,
you know, I, I statements, Ifeel this when we discuss this,
(17:48):
I feel this when we'redelivering this kind of stuff.
You know, what do you think?
Would you be willing to do this?
So I think for me that's beenabsolutely invaluable.
I can literally remember havingread this is years ago now
having read Marshall Rosenberg'sLong and Violent Communication
book and then digesting that andthinking about it in terms of
our practice with the peoplethat we're working with at
(18:09):
Forest School, and then I can'tremember what we were discussing
, lewis, but it's probably a lotof our discussions have been
around like how we structure ourworking week, what sessions do
we want to deliver?
What are your family needs?
What are your personal needs?
What are the things you enjoy.
Do you want to continue withthis project, all those kind of
tricky business discussionswhich are because the business
is so personal, isn't it?
(18:29):
It's so interwoven with our owninterests, as we're talking
about.
So, oh, this is really floatingmy boat at the moment, so I
want to do more of that in ourday-to-day work, or, actually my
family really has this need formy time at the moment, so I
know that's not ideal for you.
All of those things aboutworking together, um, and I
remember going oh, I need totalk about this, this tricky
(18:51):
thing with Lewis.
I'm just going to refresh mymemory on, like the, the um, the
way that you would formulatestatements and uh vocalizations
through the nvc approach, andjust looking at those sentence
starters again, oh, I feel likea whole weight has come off.
Now I can kind of not rehearseand practice, but I can work out
what I formulate, what I wantto say, in a way that doesn't
(19:12):
feel threatening.
Hopefully, that doesn't feellike it's you know you are doing
this to me and, oh god, this isall wrong.
It's just like these are myfeelings and it's.
You know you can't.
Really it's not accusatory, isit to just go?
These are my feelings um.
Can you help me deal with it?
And I think that's worked bothways.
Would you say Lewis, that's.
Speaker 3 (19:31):
I think, yeah, definitely, yeah, absolutely.
And I think there have beentimes I can remember times where
, in order to use NVC properly,because of who we are, we had to
not put on silly voices butlike acknowledge that it felt
weird or silly ago, like I'mgoing to do, and so you just put
a little bit of a like, a bitof distance between yourself and
(20:00):
some earnestness to go.
You know this is it.
But also I think there issomething to be said for the
fact that um, from very early on, as well as being, you know,
practicing all this NVC andstuff, when I got very practiced
at um, discussing booksdispassionately, so that so you
(20:24):
can discuss a book in a way thatis not necessarily like here's
wholly what I believe you'relike oh why, why don't we engage
with this book?
And then, so, if you attack theif, if we go, well, that, but
in the book is a little bit crap.
There's one, there's one levelof removal from like you are a
(20:44):
crap person and so are yourbeliefs.
Do you know, like having havingacademia gives you some sort of
distance from those things, andlike that's not always the case
, do you know?
I mean, like, I just think thatis.
I think that was very valuableat the start, to be able to work
out where we were in terms of apedagogy by looking at
(21:05):
different pieces and going, well, do we want any of this in it,
or do we both what you know, dowe both want bits of this in it?
And that's way more, and Ithink that's true of then you
carry on and you just keephaving those conversations and
you keep having that kind oflike you know, oh, I've learned
loads recently about um playspace design.
Here's the play space designthing I've been reading.
(21:27):
What do we think about?
Incorporating some of that inis very different to.
I dislike how the woods is andwould like to change it.
You, know, those things landdifferently.
I don't know, do you and Vickyhave a similar thing, or what
muscles have you kind of workedon?
Speaker 1 (21:47):
Oh, it's hilarious.
We I think we are somehow twinflames or something, you know
sisters from other misters.
I don't know how it happened,but we are so similar in
personality, you know, we're sosimilar in our values and our
shadow values.
You know, one of our values isease.
So quite often if one personreally really wants something,
(22:09):
they'll get it because the otherperson can't be asked.
So it's a really oh, my goodness, it isn't.
It isn't because sometimes whenyou try and do things the easy
way, they don't work out becausethey need to be done properly.
Um, but I did, we both did nbcas well, and gosh, if I could
(22:31):
recommend one thing for allrelationships in your life, it
would absolutely be that.
But I love your little tipthere about putting on a funny
voice, because if something'svery serious in my life and I
think well, I do think that I'mgoing to have to NVC this, if I
say that to my husband I'mputting my NVC hat on, it's the
signal that this is reallyimportant to me and he knows
(22:52):
straight up okay, this isserious, there's something she
really needs and this is quitean emotional conversation coming
up, boom, it straightaway setsthe right tone, I think, as well
.
So even that, I think maybe thesilly little voice is the
signal that, right, this isserious and you know, be kind.
Speaker 3 (23:13):
I think NVC is not a very.
British thing to do?
It's not.
We come from a culture of beingvery sarcastic and very
underhand to each other, and youknow the way you you know, and
Australia, I think, has asimilar thing of you know, you
have some swear words that areaffectionate words and things
like this and you know, I thinkwe have a similar.
(23:37):
So I think when we do nbc itfeels really against.
Speaker 1 (23:40):
It's like against my heritage to be authentic and to
talk about feelings it is, youknow, but I think we've been
raised to avoid all those.
You know, if it's feelinguncomfortable, let's make a
silly joke and, you know, easethe atmosphere.
So, yeah, I it is very good, Ithink, to set that tone and be
all right, it's time to be, youknow, be vulnerable, be
(24:03):
authentic.
Speaker 3 (24:04):
Maybe don't be sarcastic right now until right
at the end when you need tobreak the tension and go okay,
we're back in the room now.
Uh, you know, to get that thinggoing, let's hug it out.
Well, we're not huggers.
Speaker 1 (24:26):
Mum and I have a yearly hug, I think that's about
it, poor Vicky and we dooccasionally go.
Speaker 3 (24:30):
That's my break in.
The tension at the end is quiteoften we will hug and then go.
That's it for this year, justso you know.
Speaker 1 (24:36):
Yeah, I hope it was worth it I'm dragging poor vicky
into the hugging, the poorthing.
I'm trying to respect herboundaries more, but she seems
to be much more open to it.
Speaker 3 (24:51):
So it's a value of ease if you want to hug, it's
just easy can you tell us um,that's just easier to take it.
Speaker 4 (24:59):
Can you tell us about shadow?
You just mentioned shadowvalues.
Can you tell us about that?
Speaker 1 (25:03):
I'm intrigued vicky, taught me about it, actually,
and I will have to get to youthe book that she got it from,
because it was a book, I believe.
Um, so generally we have ourstrengths and ours might be
playing to our strengths, really, isn't it?
(25:24):
So then, if you have a thinkabout, I guess people might say
one of my great attributes isthat I'm very easygoing, I'm
very easy to get along with, butif you flip that, you flip that
the other way.
Part of that is because I'mlike I can't be bothered.
You go, you do it, you do ityour way.
(25:46):
I actually I don't care, or Ido care but I can't be asked.
So that can be a shadow value,because sometimes maybe I do
care but I can't be bothered, ormaybe I can be bothered but I'm
not caring enough when really Ishould care and I should put
the effort in.
And I find in small business,sometimes with the I'm not sure
how you guys go with this, butmy the hardest thing I find in
(26:08):
small business is the constantbarrage of decisions.
All day, every day, I'm makingdecisions for myself, for my
family, for our team members,for our families that come to
Forest School, and so sometimesI just go whatever, and then
three months later I go.
I really wish I had saidsomething then, because now I
care, but at the time I just Icouldn't be present.
(26:31):
So if you think about yourgreatest strength generally,
there's an underlying shadowvalue to that as well, and I
think it's really interesting toexplore that and the reasons
behind it.
Mine's probably I'm burning thecandle too much and I probably
need more rest and moreself-care time.
That way I've got moredecision-making energy to, to
participate in these things andand speak up when I probably
(26:53):
care a little bit more.
You know, and I'm not speakingup when I should.
Yeah, do you think the decision?
Should we?
Should we see what yourstrengths are?
I was gonna say should I askyou what your strengths are and
see if I can find a shadow value?
Speaker 4 (27:07):
oh, god, that sounds terrifying.
Um I don't.
Speaker 1 (27:11):
I'm not sure I could, by the way is it?
Speaker 4 (27:13):
does that come from Carl Jung?
Is it a Jungian thing?
The shadow self?
I don't know.
I feel like I've heard of theshadow.
Speaker 1 (27:19):
I haven't actually read it yeah, okay, she read out
a bunch of the strengths andsaid pick them.
And then I picked one.
She's like that's hilarious, athat's as well, which is we both
know it.
Which I think makes ourrelationship quite easy in a way
is that we both do go with theflow.
We both don't mind, you know,unless it's something we care
(27:41):
really deeply about.
Sure, if you want to pursuethat, go nuts.
Yeah, I'll have to get that foryou, but I'll send it to you so
we can both pop it in the shownotes.
Speaker 3 (27:50):
Brilliant yeah to get that for you, but I'll send it
to you so we can both pop it inthe show notes.
Brilliant, yeah, great.
Yeah, I was gonna ask do yougot?
Do you, nikki, have a similarthing to me?
You know, talking about thatlike decision fatigue and things
where you go well down the line.
I wish I had come into that.
Sometimes there are thingswhere, like because my you could
almost see it as like the toolin my toolbox is learn more,
(28:15):
right in quotes, that's the wayI solve things is learn more,
and so there's also I think it'snot maybe a shadow thing.
It's like the other side ofthat sword of like, well, I can
always learn more, which is that, well, I haven't learned enough
is is like the flip side ofthat, which is like any problems
(28:35):
that come up or difficultthings are like I don't
understand why this is happening.
Always come with this tinge oflike you could learn more, yeah,
okay, sometimes that's great, Iget to learn more, and
sometimes it's like, oh, I'llnever.
You know, I'll never be done,which is good and bad, isn't it?
Speaker 1 (29:01):
Yeah, and there's a level, and I would say Vicky's
got a bit of that too.
Is me talking about it whenshe's not here?
Please feel free to chime in atanother time.
Vic and she openly talk about.
This is the perfectionism aswell, and so there's that learn
more, but at what point?
And it's almost like I think wetalked about this over email.
Lewis is similar to a healingjourney.
(29:23):
At what point are we healed?
We're never healed.
We've never learned everything,we've never fully healed.
And you meet those people thatare continuously on a healing
journey, always, always healing,and they've never actually
there is no end point.
So what is it that we'reavoiding?
Is it the conflict?
Is it the confrontation?
Is it just?
(29:44):
It's a really boring task and Idon't want to do it.
So there is always a flip side.
I don't know whether they'regood or bad, I just think they
are.
You know, I don't think we needto label them good or bad or
even shadow value.
I think it's just like you said, there's two sides to a sword.
Speaker 3 (30:02):
And that's probably to do with more, and then to go
full circle right back to thestart, where we were talking
about like that way ofintrinsically learning being
joyful that knowing that, uh,you've there's more learning to
be done cuts very differentlywhen you think of learning as
great, intrinsically motivatedthings.
(30:24):
I'm interested in the idea ofthere's always more to learn
lands differently.
If your education experiencehas been, you know, didactic
lecturing and stuff you weren'treally interested in, then the
idea of, like, you need to learnmore is going to hit so
differently.
Do you know what I mean?
Speaker 1 (30:46):
Yeah, and to flip that again, if we're talking in
a business sense, if there's atask I don't want to do but I
could learn more, it's probablybecause, again, I'm avoiding the
decision, because I don't wantto make a wrong decision.
It could be about pricing, itcould be about, you know,
there's something there thatit's if I learn more, I will
feel better about this decision.
And so then, there's not that,whether it's a rejection from
(31:08):
somebody, whether it's, you know, because there is on the flip
side of perfectionism, there'soften a rejection, not disorder.
What am I trying to say?
Sensitivity isn't it?
Speaker 4 (31:21):
No, I don't know what you mean.
I don't know what you mean,Nikki.
I've never heard that before.
That's just rubbish.
Speaker 1 (31:29):
I didn't sign up for this therapy session today.
As I'm speaking this, I didn'tsign up for this therapy session
today.
As I'm speaking this, I didn'tsign up for this Did you know my
side hustle is no, but I thinkit's so interesting how so many
of us, as business owners, areperfectionists as well or are
recovering perfectionists, andthat rejection is really
(31:49):
difficult when sales isessentially what we do and none
of us would call it that becauseall of us hate sales.
But it is bottoms on seats,puts bread on table.
It's a simple equation andthat's not why any of us are in
it either.
That's the other hilariousthing.
But ultimately we have to getover that rejection to do what
(32:12):
we love.
Speaker 3 (32:14):
Do you want to know a great way of getting over the
rejection I saw it the other dayof someone said oh well, you,
you say you're a perfectionistname.
Three things you've doneperfectly.
Speaker 1 (32:26):
Oh my God, I'm not.
Speaker 3 (32:29):
I'm not at all.
Speaker 1 (32:35):
But I think business has been the best thing for mine
.
I would say I'm not aperfectionist anymore.
I would say I'm recoveringbecause I don't have time.
It's, you know, done is betterthan perfect, because I cannot
physically do all of the thingsI need to do in a work and
homeschool my children and be ayou know, a loving wife and keep
up my friendships and and andand.
I just have to get things donesometimes and not as perfectly
(32:58):
as as I want them to be.
So yeah, lifelong learning.
Speaker 4 (33:03):
Lifelong learning.
Speaker 1 (33:04):
Yay, business is way more fun than we've made it out
to be.
We promise.
Speaker 3 (33:13):
Well speaking of Nikki.
I'm very appreciative of yourtime, but people that have
listened to this and they wantto find out more about wildlings
and what you guys are up to.
Where can people head to?
Speaker 1 (33:25):
Head to our website.
It's wildlingsforestschoolcomor our socials.
We're Wildlings Forest SchoolAU because, believe it or not,
there's a Wildlings ForestSchool in the UK as well.
We found that out when we keptgetting emails at some point
from the UK people saying can wejoin your program?
I said, oh, are you on holiday?
(33:45):
Are you vacationing?
Yeah?
So yes, don't forget the AU onour socials, but we'd love to
see you.
And likewise, where can we findout more about you guys and
hear your story?
Speaker 3 (33:57):
Well, we're on theforestschoolpodcastcom or you
can find out about what we'reup to out in the woods.
If you search anywhere childrenof the forest and you have to
put UK, because there's achildren of the forest in
Indonesia.
Speaker 1 (34:12):
Oh, no way.
So there we go, thesynchronicities Exactly.
Speaker 3 (34:20):
Amazing the global world.
Speaker 1 (34:22):
Isn't it a phenomenon ?
Speaker 3 (34:23):
Thank you so much for chatting with us.
It's been very, very fun.
It has, and I'm sure we willhave to find some time in the
future to chat with Vicky aswell, when you guys have got a
bit more time.
Speaker 1 (34:36):
Yes, I can't wait to see what the next topic is.
This has been really fun totalk outside and beyond and a
little bit deeper into what wedo.
So thanks so much for having me.
I really appreciate it.
Speaker 4 (34:46):
Thanks, nikki, great to meet you.
Speaker 1 (34:58):
What fun and what a great reminder to myself to
continue to experiment and havefun in all areas of my life.
You might've noticed that we'vebeen pretty quiet around these
parts lately.
We've had a bunch of family andbusiness things going on in the
background amongst all of ourtravel, and keeping our mojo and
trying to commit the timethat's required to put this
podcast together has felt reallyhard for the first time since
(35:18):
we started this podcast.
So a big thanks to Lewis andGemma for re-energizing me, and
particularly in this space,because it's given me the
kickstart to start recordingagain, and it was just such an
absolute pleasure to connectwith such like-minded business
owners and chat to anotherbusiness partnership in a
similar field, doing such asimilar journey together.
(35:41):
How validating.
Hope you enjoyed this new andexperimental episode and until
next week, stay wild.
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