January 29, 2024 • 31 mins
We're back, baby! Kicking off the 2024 season of the Raising Wildlings Podcast with our friend and fellow business owner Gill Howarth from Born Wise Education.
Gill always brings her wisdom to the table and it's great to have her back for an in-depth discussion on what raising "wild and free" children truly means.
Listen in as Gill shares:
🌱Her experience on the delicate balance of granting our children the space to navigate their fears and the world at large.Â
🌱The spectrum of childhood "wildness" from mentorship to fostering autonomy.Â
🌱And we confront the crucial question: Are ideas of wildness and freedom more reflective of our aspirations as adults than the experiences of our children?
Listen in and come away with a deepened understanding of nature play, child-centered learning, and the broader movements towards decolonising forest school education.Â
Ever wondered how to bring the magic of 'Nature Play' into your child's education? Or how to say goodbye to your worries about snakes and ticks? With Nature Play Now, crafting an epic outdoor program is easier than you think. You’ll boost your confidence, skill sets, and have parents eager to enrol. Join the adventure for just $57, exclusively for Raising Wildlings listeners. Visit our Raising Wildlings website for more details today!"
www.r Hey it’s Nicki here interrupting this episode to quickly say, if you’re like us and feeling torn between your career as an educator vs. your beliefs for child development, We’ve created a 5 step e-guide to unlock your purpose without compromising your values. This Treasure Map is completely free, takes ten minutes, and is available from our Raising Wildlings website. So dive in and s If you enjoyed this episode of Raising Wildlings. We invite you to check out Your Wild Business, our signature business course for education change-makers who are ready to create or refine their own nature play businesses. Your Wild Business is the only program that focuses on the business side of nature play, with sustainable practices, processes, and systems that will cut down your administration work, giving you more time to focus on building a business that is centered around your e Other ways we can help you:
1. Ready to create your own Nature Play business? Head to www.raisingwildlings.com.au/wildbusiness to access the roadmap to starting your business journey.
2. Keen to find your purpose in 10 minutes? Download our FREE treasure map to find your passion without compromising your educational values.
3. Want to know how to craft an epic outdoor program that has parents and directors lining up to enrol? You need Nature Play Now our $57 Workshop and Bundle series (people are saying this is a steal!)
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Nicki Farrell (00:00):
In today's episode I'm chatting with the
wonderful Jill Howarth fromBornWire's All About Raising
Wild and Free Children.
What does wild and free reallymean anyway?
What does child-centred mean?
We'll be interpreting thephilosophy of child-centred
education and parenting andtalking about what we can do if
one child's autonomy might beinterfering with another
(00:23):
person's autonomy.
Might be a bit controversial attimes, or it might just plant
some seeds.
We hope this discussion opensyour mind up to some ideas and
starts some conversations aboutthe language that we use in and
around nature play.
We like to acknowledge thetraditional custodians of the
land on which we record todaythe Kabi, kabi and Gabi Gabi
(00:43):
people.
We recognize their continuedconnection to the land and
waters of this beautiful place.
We recognize Aboriginal peopleas the original custodians of
this land and acknowledge thatthey have never ceded
sovereignty.
We respect all Gabi Gabi elders, ancestors and emerging elders
and all First Nations peoplelistening today.
Hello and welcome to theRaising Wildlings podcast.
(01:04):
I'm your host, nikki Farrell,and today we have with us the
lovely Jill Howarth fromBornWire's.
Vicci Oliver (01:11):
Welcome to Raising Wildlings, a podcast about
parenting, alternative educationand stepping into the
wilderness, however that lookswith your family.
Nicki Farrell (01:20):
Each week, we'll be interviewing experts that
truly inspire us to answer yourparenting and education
questions.
We'll also be sharing storiesfrom some incredible families
that took the leap and aretaking the road less traveled.
Vicci Oliver (01:34):
We're your hosts, Vicki and Nikki from Wildlings
Forest School Popping yourheadphones, settle in and join
us on this next adventure.
Nicki Farrell (01:42):
Welcome to the Raising Wildlings podcast.
Today we have one of our I'mgoing to say semi-regular guests
, who we are hoping to be quiteregular Jill Howarth from
BornWire's.
How are you today?
Gill Howard (01:54):
Jill, I'm good.
I'm good, a little bit tiredjust coming back in from that.
You know January, december,holiday periods.
So yeah, I'm mostly good.
I'm just trying to remember whoI am and what I do at this
point, but yeah.
Nicki Farrell (02:09):
I could have heard my conversation with Jill
just seconds ago.
It's a combination of overwhelmand anxiety and PMS and but
we're here and it's okay andwe're human and some days
particularly when it's Januaryand you're not sure what day it
is feel a little harder thanothers.
But I'm really excited to talkto you about this topic because
(02:29):
it is something close to ourheart and, I think, something
very idealised perhaps in oursector, in the nature play
sector, and that's a topic ofraising children wild and free,
or raising wild and freechildren.
We want to dissect that alittle bit today, really trying
to work out what we believe wildand free means, what does
(02:52):
child-centred means, and kind oftrying to interpret the
philosophy of that, not just ineducation and parenting, because
obviously they cross andsometimes when we have differing
philosophies there can be aclash.
So why don't we start Jill with?
I guess, why you wanted to talkabout this topic to start with.
(03:13):
When you, when you pose thisquestion, I went yes, absolutely
.
I'd love to hear why for you.
Gill Howard (03:20):
I think it's been an ongoing kind of interest of
mine the whole time I've been ateacher, really, you know,
especially having worked youknow I've mentioned this before
mostly alternative based schoolsthat attract, you know, people
who want to look at differentphilosophies and different ways
(03:41):
of doing things.
But one thing that I've alwaysnoticed is that the philosophies
are so easily misinterpreted bythe individual, you know, and
often individual families, andwhat nature based means to me
might be something verydifferent than what it means to
you or to another family.
And so I guess I'm justinterested as an educator and a
(04:04):
parent and also, you know,somebody who really believes
that the way we treat childrenand raise our children has great
significance for, you know, theway we live our lives in the
future, the culture that we'rebuilding, and so I think it's
important to nut out some ofthese questions, and I don't
think it's even necessarily thatwe have to all be on board and
(04:26):
agree that these are the dotpoints as what it means to raise
wild and free children, but Ithink we always need to be
looking at what we mean by thatand having conversations around
it, because one of the biggestmistakes perhaps we can make as
humans and I know this becauseit's something I've only just
learned how much I do isassuming that the other person
(04:47):
or the other group or the othercommunity or the other family
actually thinks the same way youdo, and I've noticed that this
is where, you know, we come upwith these phrases like wild and
free children, or I knowthere's similar kind of
confusions and conversations inthe different parenting styles.
(05:08):
I've heard these, you know,around what is conscious
parenting, what is gentleparenting, and sometimes there's
this idea, I guess, that if wefind other people who prescribe
to this philosophy, then we'vemet people who are going to do
everything in the exact same waywe do, and I don't think that's
ever going to happen and Idon't think it needs to happen.
(05:29):
But I think conversations as towhat do we want for our
children when we say wild andfree, you know they're very
broad terms.
What do they mean?
You know, essentially, for methis is just an exciting
opportunity to talk in a spacethat honors childhood and you
know nature based parenting,education and just and kind of
(05:51):
nut out some ideas.
I guess, yeah, figure out whatit even mean when we say that.
Nicki Farrell (05:58):
Yeah, and I think that's a great starting point,
because I'm sure you're the samewhere you've seen two ends of a
very long and broad spectrumwhere wild and free for some
might mean children get choiceto do anything they want, no
matter what, possibly with zeroor very little consequences, all
the way to a very regimented,military-esque schedule, you
(06:24):
know military-type diet,military-type screen time and
everywhere in between.
So let's break down the termstoo.
What does wild mean to you, andis it any different between
what it means to you as a parentand what it means to you at
born-wise?
Gill Howard (06:45):
Yeah, that's a really good question and I think
for me the first time I theword wild in connection to
children even came up as a topicwas it was probably about 15
years ago when I was working andI described to my mentor that,
you know, a group of boys seemedreally wild and I know at the
(07:07):
time when I used that phraseback then I didn't mean it in a
positive sense.
Their wildness was actuallydisrupting something in me and
it didn't feel good.
So I definitely didn't use it.
I know I used that word in abit of a like critical way, I
think, or at least anuncomfortable way, and I
(07:28):
remember she looked at me andsaid well, what is wrong with
that?
You know why is that not okay?
And I had to sit with that.
And you know they were, it wasprobably six, four year old boys
and on reflection they werebeing wild.
But actually they were wild inthe way the wind was wild.
It wasn't a bad thing, it wasmore what it did to me as a
(07:51):
quite a new teacher.
So I think that was the startof it, way back then.
And now then I've been throughthis stage of just feeling wild
as like such a beautiful way tobe, and that there's a wildness
inside of us that relates toremembering that we are at
nature and the natural world iswild, and I'm moving towards
(08:12):
more of that gentle kind ofunderstanding of wild, you know,
in the way that a flower willgrow wildly as opposed to one
that you know goes in a moremanicured garden, which is a
much more poetic way of lookingat wild.
But I noticed how differenthumans have very different kind
(08:33):
of barometers for measuringwildness and what is okay for
one teacher or parent is verydifferent to for another parent.
And I wonder is there anythingwrong with that?
Is there, is there?
Is it wrong that we havedifferent measurements for it?
And maybe that's just when weneed to have conversations.
Nicki Farrell (08:53):
I had my eyes really wildly wide wide, not
wildly opened a couple of yearsback to when we were broaching
the topic of decolonizing forestschool and you know we're
called wildlings and and we gotasked about wild and and why we
use the word wild and wildlings.
And the person we were talkingsaid, oh, it's a very white word
(09:18):
.
And I went and straight away Iwas uncomfortable and I went to
be defensive and then I sat withit and went and she was
fantastic and she said if mychildren are playing on the
street and get called wild, it'snot, it's not a compliment.
If a white parent calls theirchildren wild, generally, it
(09:40):
means they're wild and free andyou know, nature based and so
even breaking down thecolonization of the word as it
has been, wow, I, very white,privileged position have not
ever had to consider that.
And I was very, very gratefulfor the education.
You know the way to theresponsibility of the education
(10:04):
and it really made me look atthe word really differently
again because, like you said,you can use the word as oh,
there's more the wild, or mychild so wild, and sometimes
it's just the intonation.
So I think totally so muchnuance in one word and and so
much history in a word too,because, you know, while
(10:26):
children were rounded up andsent into white homes because
they needed the wild tamed outof the near Australia and so,
quite unquote, not my belief,obviously, yeah.
So how do we decolonize wildand free as well, while we're, I
guess, deconstructing what themeaning is?
I think it's just is a reallyinteresting topic.
Gill Howard (10:51):
I think it's a really important topic.
I think you've just capturedsomething that I hadn't actually
been thinking about too much inregards to this conversation,
but it's something that I'vebeen thinking a lot about in the
last few months with my workand everything that I do in the
world, and how we often aren'taware of that white privilege,
(11:13):
and how much language andculture and our belief systems
are so entwined.
And there's a lot of trendaround the word wild at the
moment, isn't it?
It's become like a brandingthing as well and the way we use
it you're so right we use it ina way that just captures our
(11:36):
understanding of the world andit's like what an exciting.
It's like we just discoveredthe world, isn't it A little bit
?
in these circles it's just sortof like, well, how we've learned
this new word and it stands forso much.
But then I think it is reallyimportant that we keep checking
ourselves as to what do we mean,and is there a better word that
we're actually trying to findthat we haven't got yet?
Nicki Farrell (11:59):
And maybe that's it.
What is it that we're actuallytrying to encapsulate with the
word wild?
And I think you did that verywell with the analogy of the
plant it's?
You know there are, as CarolBlack called, the killer whale
at SeaWorld versus the killerwhale in the wild.
So is that what we're trying todo in nature play, where we're
(12:23):
trying to encourage children'sautonomy, and I think we need to
discuss in a minute what thatmeans and can look like, and
also without judgment, I guesstoo, because we know that the
mainstream system often doesn'tallow for the kind of autonomy
for children that we can allowin nature play programs as well.
So does wild, incidentally,straight away, say that people
(12:47):
are not wild if they don't go tothese programs?
Or what does it mean if yourchild is not wild and free as
well?
And then, is there a judgmentwithin that as well?
Yeah, so many big questions.
Gill Howard (13:02):
So many big questions and you know it's,
it's you've.
You just mentioned somethingthat I you know I was.
That came into my thoughts whenI was kind of just
contemplating this conversation,and it is that either raw thing
you know of, like we're eitherwild or we're domesticated.
I believe the answers are inbetween there and it's a think
(13:27):
again, like this is becoming myanswer to nearly everything
lately is well, look to thenatural world and what does that
mean?
You know what?
How does the natural worldteaches about wildness and it
doesn't mean that it's alwayscrashing about, being noisy Like
there's a gentleness inwildness as well, isn't there?
There's a gentleness in thewilderness and it's not.
(13:50):
Perhaps we, we could do a lot tokind of take that word and play
with it and mold it.
And because even the word freelike there's so much
connotations around, what do wemean by free Like?
I mean that's a hugephilosophical question, but I
think for me it's it's lookingat.
Well, what do we mean by wildplay and then autonomy, as you
(14:12):
just mentioned?
It's.
One of the biggest questionsfor me is watching the children
play at at Bourne-Wise and I seethese wild, wildness kind of
movements come through them.
And then there's a pointsometimes in me where I start to
go oh no, that's not okay,that's not okay.
What I'm saying there, that'ssomeone else's autonomy starting
(14:35):
to kind of impede on anotherhuman's autonomy, and and you
know I mean.
And then what do we do?
You know, is it my right to bewild and free always, no matter
how that affects other people,or is that just just a
misinterpretation of a phrase?
You know?
Nicki Farrell (14:56):
Yeah, and I think this one's really important
because typically and yoursmight be different, but at
Wildlings we generally have themajority of parents following
some kind of gentle, conscious,respectful parenting philosophy
not all, but I would.
I would guesstimate 70 to 80%.
It's probably more.
(15:16):
Actually I'm probably airing onthe on the lower side.
But even within that spectrumthere's the very La'se fair
parenting or where children cando whatever they want, which
does cause problems in ourprograms at times where our
mentors are stepping in over topof the parent because that
(15:38):
child is impeding in anotherperson's space joy, play,
anything.
So for me I believe you can dowhat you want, as long as it's
within the safety guidelines andit's not impeding on somebody
else's play to a point.
(16:00):
I guess that's again the grayzone, because you know children
that we don't need to share andso on.
That's another conversation,and I guess there's this whole
village parenting as well.
We all need to coexist in thisspace.
Happily not all the time,because we're all allowed to
feel our feelings as well andthings can seem not fair,
particularly when you're three,but it's not okay to hit, smack,
(16:21):
spit, play with sticks if thechild feels uncomfortable.
So, really, jimmy, comes down toconsent.
Are we teaching children tocommunicate about consent?
And that can be a difficultconversation with parents
sometimes.
Gill Howard (16:39):
It is.
I mean, I actually find iteasier with the children to
discuss these things because weoften be able to just sit around
with a group of children andjust say, oh, you wanted to play
that game that involved yourunning around with a stick and
it upset this other person, youknow, upset this other child.
And I find the children areable to have those conversations
(17:02):
of sort of go oh, you know,maybe didn't see that way where
they start to.
You know, I've had them come upwith great solutions where
they've created a space within aspace that is.
This is where this playhappened, and if you are not a
fan, you know, don't go overhere.
And you know they've, they've,they've come up with great ways
of navigating that.
With the parents it's much moredifficult and I don't know if
(17:25):
that's just because ourgeneration maybe hasn't grown up
ourselves with mostly that's ageneralization but we've been
able to express ourselves andhave those uncomfortable
conversations.
And it can be hard, kind of,when there's multiple adults in
a space of, well, who's leadingright now?
You know who who is.
It can be uncomfortable formentors if they have to step in
(17:47):
and the parents there and youknow it's.
Um, yeah, I mean it's.
It's.
For me, the discomfort is justa like a symbol of the fact well
, there's work that we can dohere.
You know, it's sort ofhighlighting that there's
something to be nutted out here,there's something that we can
all really learn from.
(18:07):
So let's kind of go to thecomfortable places rather than
avoid them?
Nicki Farrell (18:12):
Yeah, 100%.
I've learned, I've personallygrown so much more in my ability
to handle conflict in this rolethan any other role, any other
course at all.
And the children, exactly likeyou said, the children have
guided me in that.
You know, I've sat down and Ihave said I'm not even involved
in this play, but I feeluncomfortable and I feel
(18:33):
terrible that I had to stop thisplay as an adult when I'm not
involved.
But this is what I feel and Ipoint out, you know, the stick
or the rough housing that in mylevels, have got to the point
where it's going to end in aninjury and they've been so great
.
They're exactly like you said.
They've created safe words.
(18:53):
They've said oh well, when thishappens, I know that this will
make me feel better.
Or when such and such clencheshis jaw, I stop playing and the
child is like do I?
Yeah, you do.
Okay.
So maybe you could point outwhen Jill clenches her jaw, that
maybe she might want to take abreak for 10 seconds and 10 deep
breaths.
So they are amazing atfacilitating these gray zones?
(19:18):
I think yeah.
Gill Howard (19:22):
Yeah, they are, and I guess that's.
I mean, maybe that's becausethey don't have the same.
It seems to always.
They're better, in my opinion,at having the conversations
without judgment or taking itpersonally.
They seem to be.
It's a little more removed Forparents and educators.
Maybe it's harder for us todetach, I don't know.
(19:44):
I don't know.
We get a little bit more caughtup in things.
But I think this whole, you knoweven the term of child-centered
.
I've had lots of conversationswith parents at Bourne-Wires
who've said you know, they'vegrown, they've used this
philosophy where it's.
You know the child always getsto say what, yes, no and all of
(20:06):
these kinds of consent.
But then, you know, I had aparent ask recently but what
happens when the child's sayingno to something repeatedly?
And I know that they willbenefit from moving past that no
and learning something new youknow how do you do that.
How do you still honour thiskind of child-centered,
(20:27):
respectful, consensual learningthat recognise when it's oh, you
know, are you actually sayingno or are you stuck in this kind
of spot?
Nicki Farrell (20:39):
So, um, that's such a good one and I think
again, I think the children arereally if they're not in a group
situation where they're feelingthreatened not threatened, but
you know, they're starting to bedysregulated because they're
already in a situation wherethey're not in a private space
but when you can get them ontheir own and you can sit with
them and ask those exactquestions you know, is it fear?
(21:00):
If it is fear, let's break downthe fear.
And if we break down the fearsinto baby steps, what might be
the first step for you?
I'm not going to ask you to goand sit down and whittle a spear
, but right now, maybe you willwalk with me in the bush and see
what sticks are around for usto whittle and.
I'm sure it's a bigger fear thanthat.
It might be climbing a tree orsomething like that, but what
might be the first thing?
It might be walking around thetree, or it might be coaching
(21:23):
someone else up and down and butgetting then to suggest it as
well.
I think those steps I have foundmore often than not when we
talk about the benefits at theend and the feeling of pride and
self-confidence at the end, sooften they will create their own
plan and it's a safety plangenerally.
So that's an emotional safetyplan or a physical safety plan.
(21:44):
They are so good at being ableto step that out in a way that
suits them and I guess that'sstill autonomy, with a bit of
mentorship, because, you'reright, it's not complete
autonomy.
There's still a person of powerpersuading a small person to be
doing something they have toldyou repeatedly that they don't
(22:06):
want to do.
So I think when we come in froma conversation like an
investigative point of view,perhaps that, perhaps it's not I
have this end goal ofdefinitely getting you to this
end point, but I'm coming at youwith just curiosity to see
where you're at and if theremight be a possibility of ever
moving towards a goal.
(22:27):
I don't know.
Gill Howard (22:31):
I think that's I mean, I think that's the other
thing you just said is beautiful, it's perfect and it's sort of
echo of that scaffoldingphilosophy they talk a lot about
in Regio.
We're just kind of supportingyou through this and I think
it's important to hear these,that's how someone like yourself
manages that, because I thinkfor parents that's useful,
(22:54):
because if they haven't workedmuch with children but they've
become a parent and read thebook, then you can take these
philosophies on a very black andwhite kind of well.
Consent means child said this,child said that there's so much
more subtleties and so much it'snothing's ever really that kind
(23:15):
of binary opposition you know,this or that, or yes or no, or I
don't want to make it soundlike no is not no, but it's.
I think it's conversation andit's just relationships and
(23:35):
everything comes back to that.
For me, and you know it's awhole discussion about wild and
free, like we probably do wellto sit down and talk to the
children and say what does itmean to be wild and do you want
to be wild and free, or is thissomething that is more important
for us adults?
you know, do they feel the needto be wild and free?
(23:56):
Is we so desperately want themto be?
Nicki Farrell (23:59):
That's a good point, because they guarantee
they just want to be childrenand they don't want to label it
all.
Yes, what do you mean?
Just a 10 year old boy or girl,or in between?
Gill Howard (24:12):
I'm just a kid, I'm just Nikki 100% and that's
probably what we need to keepcoming back to.
And and you know, for me as achild who I loved being in
nature, I loved being outdoors,but I wasn't particularly wild
in the traditional sense of it,but I would have been sitting
making up stories and kind ofvery imaginative play and myth
(24:33):
and fairy tales and that that'sthat's a wildness as well.
You know, there's a wildness infairy tales for me.
So I think it's like if we canjust keep expanding on these
terms like wild and free and notand not make them stuck, you
know, not make them kind of well, I don't know if many of us are
even thinking that deeply aboutwhat it is.
Nicki Farrell (24:53):
Maybe that's just something that I'm always
giving that extra thought to you, but we've definitely gone
through it with the wild andwildlings and it was a big
decision for us to do it, and wehad it pre the decolonizing
forest school in that term.
And so we do have slight regretabout that word, with too far
down the rabbit hole to changeit, but I think conversations
(25:15):
around it, at least theawareness of it and the
intention behind it, whilst alsoacknowledging the history and
how that has impact depressedand marginalized people, is
super important is to remind usof our privilege, of where we
are.
So.
So for me, when I look at wildwhether it's in wildlings or my
(25:36):
wild and free children To me itreally comes down to being
connected to nature.
But when I dive into that deeper, we are all nature and we are
all connected, even if we livein the biggest city in the
tallest high rise with zerocontact to nature to me.
So really there is nodifference between a wild in my
(25:59):
head, what a wild child lookslike in it, and the most urban
child you've ever met.
Wild is still connected tonature, so it's almost a moot
word.
Gill Howard (26:11):
Yeah, it could be.
You know, and it sounds sosimilar to.
I have a often similar thoughtof you know, calling my work
born wise, and I mean that wasalways a little bit of a like a
cheeky sort of play on words aswell, because it's to remind me
that you know that the inner,we've got this, born with this
sort of inner wisdom, and to methat is very similar to the word
(26:33):
wild or that inner nature andeverything around us.
But then, you know, there's thatinner spark, but we're also
part of a wider whole, you know,and we're always learning and
growing.
So, yes, we're born wise, butwe're also, you know, it doesn't
.
That doesn't mean we're bornknowing everything.
You know, it's like the, the,the sort of spaces in between,
(26:55):
and I think you know what youjust said about that wildness is
, is something that's justinside of us and you know you
could argue that I mean verydeep, philosophical,
philosophical question, but likeeven someone who's perhaps, you
know, prisoner, in jail, could,if they have a certain thing
within a wildness, and and afreedom, and a freedom and
(27:16):
Nelson Mandela in the world thatno one can, you know, imprison
me.
Nicki Farrell (27:20):
I am a free man because I choose to be a free
man.
That's not what I would picturea free child to be, but if you
believe you were free, you werefree.
So who are we to say?
Definitely, definitely.
I think this is a great placeto stop, because this podcast
(27:43):
was never about giving you solidanswers.
We didn't start this episodewith a definition in mind.
So right by the end of this, wewant to have told the wonderful
audience what raising wild andfree children means exactly.
It's more, like you said, ofplanting a seed.
So I hope you've been thoughtprovoking, I hope that you've
(28:04):
got something out of it and loveto hear your feedback on
whether you're going to changewhat you call the children,
whether that's in your care andyour own family.
Yeah, please DM us with whatyou thought about this episode
and what you might either renameyour children Are they just
gonna be children?
And what it means to you.
(28:25):
Thank you so much for joiningus today.
We hope, as always, that thisconversation has sparked some, I
guess, thought provokingconversations and until next
week, stay wild.
I always love my conversationswith Jill.
I hope you do too.
I love that they kind of weavein and out and we talk about the
big ideas that we end up comingback to, I guess, a mutual
(28:48):
understanding, which really isalways that there is no black
and white answer and thateverything that we talk about in
the nature play kind of sectorneeds to be place-based and it
needs to be people-based and itneeds to be rooted in
decolonising forest school aswell.
So I hope, if nothing else,we've planted some seeds and
(29:10):
opened up some conversationsabout the wild and free
philosophy and interpreting whata child's autonomy may or may
not mean in a village or aprogram setting and also what
child-centred means in educationand parenting.
Ultimately, I hope you feelwild and free in the most
(29:31):
positive context for you andyour family, and that these
conversations continue to happenand that we continue to break
down our privilege around themas well.
Until next week, stay wild.
In today's episode I'm chatting with the
wonderful Jill Howarth fromBornWire's All About Raising
Wild and Free Children.
What does wild and free reallymean anyway?
What does child-centred mean?
We'll be interpreting thephilosophy of child-centred
education and parenting andtalking about what we can do if
one child's autonomy might beinterfering with another
(00:23):
person's autonomy.
Might be a bit controversial attimes, or it might just plant
some seeds.
We hope this discussion opensyour mind up to some ideas and
starts some conversations aboutthe language that we use in and
around nature play.
We like to acknowledge thetraditional custodians of the
land on which we record todaythe Kabi, kabi and Gabi Gabi
(00:43):
people.
We recognize their continuedconnection to the land and
waters of this beautiful place.
We recognize Aboriginal peopleas the original custodians of
this land and acknowledge thatthey have never ceded
sovereignty.
We respect all Gabi Gabi elders, ancestors and emerging elders
and all First Nations peoplelistening today.
Hello and welcome to theRaising Wildlings podcast.
(01:04):
I'm your host, nikki Farrell,and today we have with us the
lovely Jill Howarth fromBornWire's.
Vicci Oliver (01:11):
Welcome to Raising Wildlings, a podcast about
parenting, alternative educationand stepping into the
wilderness, however that lookswith your family.
Nicki Farrell (01:20):
Each week, we'll be interviewing experts that
truly inspire us to answer yourparenting and education
questions.
We'll also be sharing storiesfrom some incredible families
that took the leap and aretaking the road less traveled.
Vicci Oliver (01:34):
We're your hosts, Vicki and Nikki from Wildlings
Forest School Popping yourheadphones, settle in and join
us on this next adventure.
Nicki Farrell (01:42):
Welcome to the Raising Wildlings podcast.
Today we have one of our I'mgoing to say semi-regular guests
, who we are hoping to be quiteregular Jill Howarth from
BornWire's.
How are you today?
Gill Howard (01:54):
Jill, I'm good.
I'm good, a little bit tiredjust coming back in from that.
You know January, december,holiday periods.
So yeah, I'm mostly good.
I'm just trying to remember whoI am and what I do at this
point, but yeah.
Nicki Farrell (02:09):
I could have heard my conversation with Jill
just seconds ago.
It's a combination of overwhelmand anxiety and PMS and but
we're here and it's okay andwe're human and some days
particularly when it's Januaryand you're not sure what day it
is feel a little harder thanothers.
But I'm really excited to talkto you about this topic because
(02:29):
it is something close to ourheart and, I think, something
very idealised perhaps in oursector, in the nature play
sector, and that's a topic ofraising children wild and free,
or raising wild and freechildren.
We want to dissect that alittle bit today, really trying
to work out what we believe wildand free means, what does
(02:52):
child-centred means, and kind oftrying to interpret the
philosophy of that, not just ineducation and parenting, because
obviously they cross andsometimes when we have differing
philosophies there can be aclash.
So why don't we start Jill with?
I guess, why you wanted to talkabout this topic to start with.
(03:13):
When you, when you pose thisquestion, I went yes, absolutely
.
I'd love to hear why for you.
Gill Howard (03:20):
I think it's been an ongoing kind of interest of
mine the whole time I've been ateacher, really, you know,
especially having worked youknow I've mentioned this before
mostly alternative based schoolsthat attract, you know, people
who want to look at differentphilosophies and different ways
(03:41):
of doing things.
But one thing that I've alwaysnoticed is that the philosophies
are so easily misinterpreted bythe individual, you know, and
often individual families, andwhat nature based means to me
might be something verydifferent than what it means to
you or to another family.
And so I guess I'm justinterested as an educator and a
(04:04):
parent and also, you know,somebody who really believes
that the way we treat childrenand raise our children has great
significance for, you know, theway we live our lives in the
future, the culture that we'rebuilding, and so I think it's
important to nut out some ofthese questions, and I don't
think it's even necessarily thatwe have to all be on board and
(04:26):
agree that these are the dotpoints as what it means to raise
wild and free children, but Ithink we always need to be
looking at what we mean by thatand having conversations around
it, because one of the biggestmistakes perhaps we can make as
humans and I know this becauseit's something I've only just
learned how much I do isassuming that the other person
(04:47):
or the other group or the othercommunity or the other family
actually thinks the same way youdo, and I've noticed that this
is where, you know, we come upwith these phrases like wild and
free children, or I knowthere's similar kind of
confusions and conversations inthe different parenting styles.
(05:08):
I've heard these, you know,around what is conscious
parenting, what is gentleparenting, and sometimes there's
this idea, I guess, that if wefind other people who prescribe
to this philosophy, then we'vemet people who are going to do
everything in the exact same waywe do, and I don't think that's
ever going to happen and Idon't think it needs to happen.
(05:29):
But I think conversations as towhat do we want for our
children when we say wild andfree, you know they're very
broad terms.
What do they mean?
You know, essentially, for methis is just an exciting
opportunity to talk in a spacethat honors childhood and you
know nature based parenting,education and just and kind of
(05:51):
nut out some ideas.
I guess, yeah, figure out whatit even mean when we say that.
Nicki Farrell (05:58):
Yeah, and I think that's a great starting point,
because I'm sure you're the samewhere you've seen two ends of a
very long and broad spectrumwhere wild and free for some
might mean children get choiceto do anything they want, no
matter what, possibly with zeroor very little consequences, all
the way to a very regimented,military-esque schedule, you
(06:24):
know military-type diet,military-type screen time and
everywhere in between.
So let's break down the termstoo.
What does wild mean to you, andis it any different between
what it means to you as a parentand what it means to you at
born-wise?
Gill Howard (06:45):
Yeah, that's a really good question and I think
for me the first time I theword wild in connection to
children even came up as a topicwas it was probably about 15
years ago when I was working andI described to my mentor that,
you know, a group of boys seemedreally wild and I know at the
(07:07):
time when I used that phraseback then I didn't mean it in a
positive sense.
Their wildness was actuallydisrupting something in me and
it didn't feel good.
So I definitely didn't use it.
I know I used that word in abit of a like critical way, I
think, or at least anuncomfortable way, and I
(07:28):
remember she looked at me andsaid well, what is wrong with
that?
You know why is that not okay?
And I had to sit with that.
And you know they were, it wasprobably six, four year old boys
and on reflection they werebeing wild.
But actually they were wild inthe way the wind was wild.
It wasn't a bad thing, it wasmore what it did to me as a
(07:51):
quite a new teacher.
So I think that was the startof it, way back then.
And now then I've been throughthis stage of just feeling wild
as like such a beautiful way tobe, and that there's a wildness
inside of us that relates toremembering that we are at
nature and the natural world iswild, and I'm moving towards
(08:12):
more of that gentle kind ofunderstanding of wild, you know,
in the way that a flower willgrow wildly as opposed to one
that you know goes in a moremanicured garden, which is a
much more poetic way of lookingat wild.
But I noticed how differenthumans have very different kind
(08:33):
of barometers for measuringwildness and what is okay for
one teacher or parent is verydifferent to for another parent.
And I wonder is there anythingwrong with that?
Is there, is there?
Is it wrong that we havedifferent measurements for it?
And maybe that's just when weneed to have conversations.
Nicki Farrell (08:53):
I had my eyes really wildly wide wide, not
wildly opened a couple of yearsback to when we were broaching
the topic of decolonizing forestschool and you know we're
called wildlings and and we gotasked about wild and and why we
use the word wild and wildlings.
And the person we were talkingsaid, oh, it's a very white word
(09:18):
.
And I went and straight away Iwas uncomfortable and I went to
be defensive and then I sat withit and went and she was
fantastic and she said if mychildren are playing on the
street and get called wild, it'snot, it's not a compliment.
If a white parent calls theirchildren wild, generally, it
(09:40):
means they're wild and free andyou know, nature based and so
even breaking down thecolonization of the word as it
has been, wow, I, very white,privileged position have not
ever had to consider that.
And I was very, very gratefulfor the education.
You know the way to theresponsibility of the education
(10:04):
and it really made me look atthe word really differently
again because, like you said,you can use the word as oh,
there's more the wild, or mychild so wild, and sometimes
it's just the intonation.
So I think totally so muchnuance in one word and and so
much history in a word too,because, you know, while
(10:26):
children were rounded up andsent into white homes because
they needed the wild tamed outof the near Australia and so,
quite unquote, not my belief,obviously, yeah.
So how do we decolonize wildand free as well, while we're, I
guess, deconstructing what themeaning is?
I think it's just is a reallyinteresting topic.
Gill Howard (10:51):
I think it's a really important topic.
I think you've just capturedsomething that I hadn't actually
been thinking about too much inregards to this conversation,
but it's something that I'vebeen thinking a lot about in the
last few months with my workand everything that I do in the
world, and how we often aren'taware of that white privilege,
(11:13):
and how much language andculture and our belief systems
are so entwined.
And there's a lot of trendaround the word wild at the
moment, isn't it?
It's become like a brandingthing as well and the way we use
it you're so right we use it ina way that just captures our
(11:36):
understanding of the world andit's like what an exciting.
It's like we just discoveredthe world, isn't it A little bit
?
in these circles it's just sortof like, well, how we've learned
this new word and it stands forso much.
But then I think it is reallyimportant that we keep checking
ourselves as to what do we mean,and is there a better word that
we're actually trying to findthat we haven't got yet?
Nicki Farrell (11:59):
And maybe that's it.
What is it that we're actuallytrying to encapsulate with the
word wild?
And I think you did that verywell with the analogy of the
plant it's?
You know there are, as CarolBlack called, the killer whale
at SeaWorld versus the killerwhale in the wild.
So is that what we're trying todo in nature play, where we're
(12:23):
trying to encourage children'sautonomy, and I think we need to
discuss in a minute what thatmeans and can look like, and
also without judgment, I guesstoo, because we know that the
mainstream system often doesn'tallow for the kind of autonomy
for children that we can allowin nature play programs as well.
So does wild, incidentally,straight away, say that people
(12:47):
are not wild if they don't go tothese programs?
Or what does it mean if yourchild is not wild and free as
well?
And then, is there a judgmentwithin that as well?
Yeah, so many big questions.
Gill Howard (13:02):
So many big questions and you know it's,
it's you've.
You just mentioned somethingthat I you know I was.
That came into my thoughts whenI was kind of just
contemplating this conversation,and it is that either raw thing
you know of, like we're eitherwild or we're domesticated.
I believe the answers are inbetween there and it's a think
(13:27):
again, like this is becoming myanswer to nearly everything
lately is well, look to thenatural world and what does that
mean?
You know what?
How does the natural worldteaches about wildness and it
doesn't mean that it's alwayscrashing about, being noisy Like
there's a gentleness inwildness as well, isn't there?
There's a gentleness in thewilderness and it's not.
(13:50):
Perhaps we, we could do a lot tokind of take that word and play
with it and mold it.
And because even the word freelike there's so much
connotations around, what do wemean by free Like?
I mean that's a hugephilosophical question, but I
think for me it's it's lookingat.
Well, what do we mean by wildplay and then autonomy, as you
(14:12):
just mentioned?
It's.
One of the biggest questionsfor me is watching the children
play at at Bourne-Wise and I seethese wild, wildness kind of
movements come through them.
And then there's a pointsometimes in me where I start to
go oh no, that's not okay,that's not okay.
What I'm saying there, that'ssomeone else's autonomy starting
(14:35):
to kind of impede on anotherhuman's autonomy, and and you
know I mean.
And then what do we do?
You know, is it my right to bewild and free always, no matter
how that affects other people,or is that just just a
misinterpretation of a phrase?
You know?
Nicki Farrell (14:56):
Yeah, and I think this one's really important
because typically and yoursmight be different, but at
Wildlings we generally have themajority of parents following
some kind of gentle, conscious,respectful parenting philosophy
not all, but I would.
I would guesstimate 70 to 80%.
It's probably more.
(15:16):
Actually I'm probably airing onthe on the lower side.
But even within that spectrumthere's the very La'se fair
parenting or where children cando whatever they want, which
does cause problems in ourprograms at times where our
mentors are stepping in over topof the parent because that
(15:38):
child is impeding in anotherperson's space joy, play,
anything.
So for me I believe you can dowhat you want, as long as it's
within the safety guidelines andit's not impeding on somebody
else's play to a point.
(16:00):
I guess that's again the grayzone, because you know children
that we don't need to share andso on.
That's another conversation,and I guess there's this whole
village parenting as well.
We all need to coexist in thisspace.
Happily not all the time,because we're all allowed to
feel our feelings as well andthings can seem not fair,
particularly when you're three,but it's not okay to hit, smack,
(16:21):
spit, play with sticks if thechild feels uncomfortable.
So, really, jimmy, comes down toconsent.
Are we teaching children tocommunicate about consent?
And that can be a difficultconversation with parents
sometimes.
Gill Howard (16:39):
It is.
I mean, I actually find iteasier with the children to
discuss these things because weoften be able to just sit around
with a group of children andjust say, oh, you wanted to play
that game that involved yourunning around with a stick and
it upset this other person, youknow, upset this other child.
And I find the children areable to have those conversations
(17:02):
of sort of go oh, you know,maybe didn't see that way where
they start to.
You know, I've had them come upwith great solutions where
they've created a space within aspace that is.
This is where this playhappened, and if you are not a
fan, you know, don't go overhere.
And you know they've, they've,they've come up with great ways
of navigating that.
With the parents it's much moredifficult and I don't know if
(17:25):
that's just because ourgeneration maybe hasn't grown up
ourselves with mostly that's ageneralization but we've been
able to express ourselves andhave those uncomfortable
conversations.
And it can be hard, kind of,when there's multiple adults in
a space of, well, who's leadingright now?
You know who who is.
It can be uncomfortable formentors if they have to step in
(17:47):
and the parents there and youknow it's.
Um, yeah, I mean it's.
It's.
For me, the discomfort is justa like a symbol of the fact well
, there's work that we can dohere.
You know, it's sort ofhighlighting that there's
something to be nutted out here,there's something that we can
all really learn from.
(18:07):
So let's kind of go to thecomfortable places rather than
avoid them?
Nicki Farrell (18:12):
Yeah, 100%.
I've learned, I've personallygrown so much more in my ability
to handle conflict in this rolethan any other role, any other
course at all.
And the children, exactly likeyou said, the children have
guided me in that.
You know, I've sat down and Ihave said I'm not even involved
in this play, but I feeluncomfortable and I feel
(18:33):
terrible that I had to stop thisplay as an adult when I'm not
involved.
But this is what I feel and Ipoint out, you know, the stick
or the rough housing that in mylevels, have got to the point
where it's going to end in aninjury and they've been so great
.
They're exactly like you said.
They've created safe words.
(18:53):
They've said oh well, when thishappens, I know that this will
make me feel better.
Or when such and such clencheshis jaw, I stop playing and the
child is like do I?
Yeah, you do.
Okay.
So maybe you could point outwhen Jill clenches her jaw, that
maybe she might want to take abreak for 10 seconds and 10 deep
breaths.
So they are amazing atfacilitating these gray zones?
(19:18):
I think yeah.
Gill Howard (19:22):
Yeah, they are, and I guess that's.
I mean, maybe that's becausethey don't have the same.
It seems to always.
They're better, in my opinion,at having the conversations
without judgment or taking itpersonally.
They seem to be.
It's a little more removed Forparents and educators.
Maybe it's harder for us todetach, I don't know.
(19:44):
I don't know.
We get a little bit more caughtup in things.
But I think this whole, you knoweven the term of child-centered
.
I've had lots of conversationswith parents at Bourne-Wires
who've said you know, they'vegrown, they've used this
philosophy where it's.
You know the child always getsto say what, yes, no and all of
(20:06):
these kinds of consent.
But then, you know, I had aparent ask recently but what
happens when the child's sayingno to something repeatedly?
And I know that they willbenefit from moving past that no
and learning something new youknow how do you do that.
How do you still honour thiskind of child-centered,
(20:27):
respectful, consensual learningthat recognise when it's oh, you
know, are you actually sayingno or are you stuck in this kind
of spot?
Nicki Farrell (20:39):
So, um, that's such a good one and I think
again, I think the children arereally if they're not in a group
situation where they're feelingthreatened not threatened, but
you know, they're starting to bedysregulated because they're
already in a situation wherethey're not in a private space
but when you can get them ontheir own and you can sit with
them and ask those exactquestions you know, is it fear?
(21:00):
If it is fear, let's break downthe fear.
And if we break down the fearsinto baby steps, what might be
the first step for you?
I'm not going to ask you to goand sit down and whittle a spear
, but right now, maybe you willwalk with me in the bush and see
what sticks are around for usto whittle and.
I'm sure it's a bigger fear thanthat.
It might be climbing a tree orsomething like that, but what
might be the first thing?
It might be walking around thetree, or it might be coaching
(21:23):
someone else up and down and butgetting then to suggest it as
well.
I think those steps I have foundmore often than not when we
talk about the benefits at theend and the feeling of pride and
self-confidence at the end, sooften they will create their own
plan and it's a safety plangenerally.
So that's an emotional safetyplan or a physical safety plan.
(21:44):
They are so good at being ableto step that out in a way that
suits them and I guess that'sstill autonomy, with a bit of
mentorship, because, you'reright, it's not complete
autonomy.
There's still a person of powerpersuading a small person to be
doing something they have toldyou repeatedly that they don't
(22:06):
want to do.
So I think when we come in froma conversation like an
investigative point of view,perhaps that, perhaps it's not I
have this end goal ofdefinitely getting you to this
end point, but I'm coming at youwith just curiosity to see
where you're at and if theremight be a possibility of ever
moving towards a goal.
(22:27):
I don't know.
Gill Howard (22:31):
I think that's I mean, I think that's the other
thing you just said is beautiful, it's perfect and it's sort of
echo of that scaffoldingphilosophy they talk a lot about
in Regio.
We're just kind of supportingyou through this and I think
it's important to hear these,that's how someone like yourself
manages that, because I thinkfor parents that's useful,
(22:54):
because if they haven't workedmuch with children but they've
become a parent and read thebook, then you can take these
philosophies on a very black andwhite kind of well.
Consent means child said this,child said that there's so much
more subtleties and so much it'snothing's ever really that kind
(23:15):
of binary opposition you know,this or that, or yes or no, or I
don't want to make it soundlike no is not no, but it's.
I think it's conversation andit's just relationships and
(23:35):
everything comes back to that.
For me, and you know it's awhole discussion about wild and
free, like we probably do wellto sit down and talk to the
children and say what does itmean to be wild and do you want
to be wild and free, or is thissomething that is more important
for us adults?
you know, do they feel the needto be wild and free?
(23:56):
Is we so desperately want themto be?
Nicki Farrell (23:59):
That's a good point, because they guarantee
they just want to be childrenand they don't want to label it
all.
Yes, what do you mean?
Just a 10 year old boy or girl,or in between?
Gill Howard (24:12):
I'm just a kid, I'm just Nikki 100% and that's
probably what we need to keepcoming back to.
And and you know, for me as achild who I loved being in
nature, I loved being outdoors,but I wasn't particularly wild
in the traditional sense of it,but I would have been sitting
making up stories and kind ofvery imaginative play and myth
(24:33):
and fairy tales and that that'sthat's a wildness as well.
You know, there's a wildness infairy tales for me.
So I think it's like if we canjust keep expanding on these
terms like wild and free and notand not make them stuck, you
know, not make them kind of well, I don't know if many of us are
even thinking that deeply aboutwhat it is.
Nicki Farrell (24:53):
Maybe that's just something that I'm always
giving that extra thought to you, but we've definitely gone
through it with the wild andwildlings and it was a big
decision for us to do it, and wehad it pre the decolonizing
forest school in that term.
And so we do have slight regretabout that word, with too far
down the rabbit hole to changeit, but I think conversations
(25:15):
around it, at least theawareness of it and the
intention behind it, whilst alsoacknowledging the history and
how that has impact depressedand marginalized people, is
super important is to remind usof our privilege, of where we
are.
So.
So for me, when I look at wildwhether it's in wildlings or my
(25:36):
wild and free children To me itreally comes down to being
connected to nature.
But when I dive into that deeper, we are all nature and we are
all connected, even if we livein the biggest city in the
tallest high rise with zerocontact to nature to me.
So really there is nodifference between a wild in my
(25:59):
head, what a wild child lookslike in it, and the most urban
child you've ever met.
Wild is still connected tonature, so it's almost a moot
word.
Gill Howard (26:11):
Yeah, it could be.
You know, and it sounds sosimilar to.
I have a often similar thoughtof you know, calling my work
born wise, and I mean that wasalways a little bit of a like a
cheeky sort of play on words aswell, because it's to remind me
that you know that the inner,we've got this, born with this
sort of inner wisdom, and to methat is very similar to the word
(26:33):
wild or that inner nature andeverything around us.
But then, you know, there's thatinner spark, but we're also
part of a wider whole, you know,and we're always learning and
growing.
So, yes, we're born wise, butwe're also, you know, it doesn't
.
That doesn't mean we're bornknowing everything.
You know, it's like the, the,the sort of spaces in between,
(26:55):
and I think you know what youjust said about that wildness is
, is something that's justinside of us and you know you
could argue that I mean verydeep, philosophical,
philosophical question, but likeeven someone who's perhaps, you
know, prisoner, in jail, could,if they have a certain thing
within a wildness, and and afreedom, and a freedom and
(27:16):
Nelson Mandela in the world thatno one can, you know, imprison
me.
Nicki Farrell (27:20):
I am a free man because I choose to be a free
man.
That's not what I would picturea free child to be, but if you
believe you were free, you werefree.
So who are we to say?
Definitely, definitely.
I think this is a great placeto stop, because this podcast
(27:43):
was never about giving you solidanswers.
We didn't start this episodewith a definition in mind.
So right by the end of this, wewant to have told the wonderful
audience what raising wild andfree children means exactly.
It's more, like you said, ofplanting a seed.
So I hope you've been thoughtprovoking, I hope that you've
(28:04):
got something out of it and loveto hear your feedback on
whether you're going to changewhat you call the children,
whether that's in your care andyour own family.
Yeah, please DM us with whatyou thought about this episode
and what you might either renameyour children Are they just
gonna be children?
And what it means to you.
(28:25):
Thank you so much for joiningus today.
We hope, as always, that thisconversation has sparked some, I
guess, thought provokingconversations and until next
week, stay wild.
I always love my conversationswith Jill.
I hope you do too.
I love that they kind of weavein and out and we talk about the
big ideas that we end up comingback to, I guess, a mutual
(28:48):
understanding, which really isalways that there is no black
and white answer and thateverything that we talk about in
the nature play kind of sectorneeds to be place-based and it
needs to be people-based and itneeds to be rooted in
decolonising forest school aswell.
So I hope, if nothing else,we've planted some seeds and
(29:10):
opened up some conversationsabout the wild and free
philosophy and interpreting whata child's autonomy may or may
not mean in a village or aprogram setting and also what
child-centred means in educationand parenting.
Ultimately, I hope you feelwild and free in the most
(29:31):
positive context for you andyour family, and that these
conversations continue to happenand that we continue to break
down our privilege around themas well.
Until next week, stay wild.
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