August 5, 2024 • 25 mins
Are you grappling with the fear of cease and desist letters or the anxiety of operating your nature play business in legal grey zones? Get ready to arm yourself with essential insights and practical advice that can help you stay compliant and successful in this challenging landscape.
We'll help you understand where your business fits within outdoor recreation, education, and environmental education and clarify how these definitions impact your regulatory obligations. By focusing on the purpose, age group, and structure of your programs, you’ll learn how to navigate the often complex regulatory landscape effectively and ensure your nature play business thrives without legal hurdles.
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www.r Hey it’s Nicki here interrupting this episode to quickly say, if you’re like us and feeling torn between your career as an educator vs. your beliefs for child development, We’ve created a 5 step e-guide to unlock your purpose without compromising your values. This Treasure Map is completely free, takes ten minutes, and is available from our Raising Wildlings website. So dive in and s If you enjoyed this episode of Raising Wildlings. We invite you to check out Your Wild Business, our signature business course for education change-makers who are ready to create or refine their own nature play businesses. Your Wild Business is the only program that focuses on the business side of nature play, with sustainable practices, processes, and systems that will cut down your administration work, giving you more time to focus on building a business that is centered around your e Other ways we can help you:
1. Ready to create your own Nature Play business? Head to www.raisingwildlings.com.au/wildbusiness to access the roadmap to starting your business journey.
2. Keen to find your purpose in 10 minutes? Download our FREE treasure map to find your passion without compromising your educational values.
3. Want to know how to craft an epic outdoor program that has parents and directors lining up to enrol? You need Nature Play Now our $57 Workshop and Bundle series (people are saying this is a steal!)
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
There's a lot of anxiety in the nature plate
industry at the moment becausewe've heard of quite a few
businesses being shut down,which is obviously pretty scary
if you're in this sector andindustry at the moment, and
ourselves well, we've beenreceiving quite a few calls
asking for help and advice onhow to prevent being shut down
after the business has receiveda cease and desist letter,
(00:20):
whether that's from a CEQA orthe education department.
Now we also know that for a lotof people who follow us on
Raising Wildlings that are keento start their own wild business
, that one of the main reasonsthey never take the leap is that
they're worried about beingshut down or doing things wrong
or not being legal, which isgreat, actually.
We're actually really, reallypleased that that's a concern,
(00:43):
but we thought it was about timewe address these concerns and
give you our top tips on how toavoid being shut down.
Speaker 3 (00:53):
I'd like to acknowledge the traditional
owners and custodians of thelands on which we work the Kabi
Kabi and the Gubbi Gubbi people.
I'd like to recognise theircontinuing connection to the
land and waters and thank themfor protecting this coastline
and its ecosystems.
Since time immemorial we payour respects to Elders past,
present and extend that respectto all First Nations people
(01:14):
listening today.
Speaker 2 (01:16):
Welcome to Raising Wildlings, a podcast about
parenting, alternative educationand stepping into the
wilderness, however that lookswith your family.
Speaker 1 (01:25):
Each week, we'll be interviewing experts that truly
inspire us to answer yourparenting and education
questions.
We'll also be sharing storiesfrom some incredible families
that took the leap and aretaking the road less travelled.
Speaker 2 (01:39):
We're your hosts.
Vicky and Nikki from WildlingsForest School, pop in your
headphones, settle in and joinus on this next adventure.
Speaker 3 (01:48):
Hello and welcome to the Raising Wildlings podcast.
We're your hosts today, VickyOliver and Nikki Farrell.
It's been a hot minute, sincethe two of us have been together
on a podcast and this is areally important topic that we
wanted to chat about todaybecause we have had a lot of
people talking about it.
It's been a topic of discussionon our Facebook groups for a
while business and we think that, although it is a concern, we
(02:13):
definitely have some things tochat about to maybe put some
people's minds at ease,particularly because there are
lots of things that you can doto ensure that, if you're
running an HPA business, thatyou're doing it legally and that
you don't have that fearsitting on your you know the
back of your head about whetheror not you're going to get shut
down.
Very important informationtoday.
Speaker 1 (02:35):
Yeah.
So I think our first tip andyou know, these tips have
probably seemed really obvious,but it's also really obvious
that people aren't doing themreally obvious, but it's also
really obvious that peoplearen't doing them.
I think that's the glaringlyobvious thing to ask is that,
first of all, you need to knowyour industry, and I think the
first thing that people aregetting confused about is
(02:56):
actually where they fit.
So, vic, do you want to talkabout where we fit?
Speaker 3 (03:00):
Yeah.
So I mean it has been quite ablurry line, because we actually
do fit under outdoor recreation, which, when you look at the
definition of that, that'soutdoor leisure, time that's
spent outdoors, which isessentially what our programs
provide.
Now, if you were to do like akayaking trip or you know,
(03:23):
obviously Nikki, you've done awhole outdoor recreation course.
There is an element of learningthat goes into taking part in
leisure activities, which iswhere that crossover, I guess,
happens with the types ofactivities that we're providing
for children and I guess,because they are learning, it
does bleed into the ages of thechildren that we're working with
(03:44):
.
Oftentimes it bleeds intolooking a lot like an
educational program.
But there's a few definingcharacteristics that really are
important to consider in thefact that we are not providing
education programs at the sametime.
But the other thing I also wantto really highlight is there's
(04:06):
such a scope of what people aredoing when it comes to nature,
play and businesses.
If you are very specificallyjust providing a nature kindy
experience, then you would bebleeding more into early
childcare, as opposed to ourbusiness, which really has a
plethora of different types ofprograms that we provide,
(04:30):
including a bushcunny, but wenot exclusively and it's not the
whole part of our business.
In fact we probably deal witholder children, and then there's
also this concept of outdoorrecreation and outdoor education
and also environmentaleducation.
So I guess the purpose ofbringing this up is to get
really clear on where you bestthink your type of programming
(04:55):
sits.
What is the purpose of yourprogram?
For a lot of people it'sactually teaching more about the
environment, which would thenlend yourself more to
environmental education, and forother people it is more on the
outdoor recreational side ofthings and I guess there's a
little less structure than someof the other outdoor rec
(05:16):
activities, but it still haselements of lots of those things
as well, like hiking and thingslike raft building, and there's
so much crossover, which is, Iguess, what makes it so blurry
sometimes.
Speaker 1 (05:30):
Yeah, and I think you made a really good point there
that if you're only offeringservices to preschool age, then
it's going to be reallydifficult to not be slotted into
the early years services andinto the Child Services Act.
And if you're only offeringyour programs to school-aged
children and you're running fivedays a week during school hours
(05:50):
, it's going to be really hardto not be slotted into the
school regulations.
So have a really good thinkabout A what programs you're
offering.
B what age you're offering themto.
C what days and times you'reoffering those programs, and
maybe make sure that you'reoffering a mix, or you just need
(06:14):
to know the difference, becausethis is where people are
getting tripped up andparticularly in New South Wales,
is people are pretty muchrunning only preschool and only
drop-off.
So if you're offering adrop-off service during school
hours, that's available fivedays a week during, and even if
(06:35):
you're not five days a week, ifyou're doing drop-off for
preschool age children, you're achildcare service.
So and in New South Wales thereis no exemption outside of this
Other states have exemptions.
So there are mobile services,there is tutoring, there are
occasional care, which you knowto be clear, occasional care is
generally only available tohotels and shopping malls and
(06:57):
things like that.
So there's only this reallylimited scope of exemptions in
different states where you canactually run drop-off programs.
So the reason people are beingshut down is because they are
actually running illegal daycareservices, childcare services.
So just because you can seesomeone else running it also
(07:18):
doesn't mean it's legal.
Speaker 3 (07:20):
That's exactly right, and I think that's a really
important distinction to make.
There are plenty of people outthere running phenomenal
programs.
Let's not deny that the programsthemselves aren't great, it
doesn't necessarily mean thatthey're meeting the legal
requirements in their state.
And that's the tricky partabout regulation is that we
cannot outright state here's howyou can run, because that is
(07:46):
going to be very specific towhere you live, and even outside
of Australia that's going to becompletely different, because
even levels of government runcompletely differently in
different places around theworld as well.
Speaker 1 (08:00):
So I just want to add one more bit there.
With the early years it's sotricky.
So to become an approvedchildcare provider because
sometimes people go, oh well,we'll just become approved and
then parents can get rebates,great.
But to be an approved provider,a, you need to go through that
(08:21):
application process, but B youcannot become a drop-off
childcare service without abuilding, without a gate and
without meeting all theincredibly specific requirements
required of a childcare centre.
So again, this is why natureplay programs that are based
purely outdoors just franklycannot be right now, and we're
(08:44):
hoping this changes as the yearscome.
You cannot be an approvedchildcare provider and run
purely outdoors at the moment.
Speaker 3 (08:52):
That's right, and I think it's really important to
note that, whilst there havebeen, obviously, people who have
been running outdoor programsof this nature for a very long
time, as an industry this isvery new.
It is taking, and it will take,a bit of time for the agencies
(09:13):
that are in charge of makingthese decisions to catch up with
what people are wanting toprovide and what families are
wanting to provide, wantingtheir children to have access to
as well.
So that's why it's reallyimportant to have these
conversations and that's why wetake our role very seriously in
making sure that people aregetting the correct information,
and we have that little pang,too, when we hear that someone's
being shut down.
(09:34):
You know you get that nervousfeeling of like, oh my goodness.
But when you peel back thelayers and you ask the right
questions, you find out thatit's really obvious why they
were shut down in the firstplace.
It's not like they're just, Idon't know, someone's just
decided that they don't likewhat they're doing and shut them
down because they reallyhaven't met very clear
(09:57):
regulatory guidelines orwhatever it is.
Speaker 1 (10:02):
Besides the facts of whether we agree with them or
not.
Right Like I would love, lovefor there to be a space in the
regs that say, yes, you can runa pure outdoors.
For there to be a space in theregs that say, yes, you can run
a pure outdoors.
You know, child care, approvedchild care provider, but at the
moment there just isn't.
So while we talk about runningin the grey zone all the time,
actually, when it comes to lawand regs, it's very clear cut
(10:24):
and it's very black and whiteand they don't run in the grey
zones.
So you know what we mean by thegrey zone is, you know, making
sure you know where you fit,because you may not like us.
We do not fit in as a school, wedo not fit as a childcare
service and we fit in outdoorrecreation because of the
plethora of programs that we runand how we run them.
(10:47):
So our early years programsessentially, are all parents
attending, right.
And then during school holidayswe do do drop off for school
age children during the holidays, which are not within school
programs.
And then there's thehomeschooling kind of.
It's not an exemption, but thisis where, if you're, you can
run homeschool activities forhomeschool children because it's
(11:09):
not a five day aweek program.
So that's what we mean by thegrey zone.
We don't mean there's a greyzone in what the law says.
Speaker 3 (11:17):
That's exactly right.
It's about us making sure thatwe are meeting those
requirements, but it's about usbending our programs to make
sure that we're not operatingillegally, like you said having
parents attending by beingspecific about when we run our
programs.
Speaker 1 (11:32):
having parents attending by being specific
about when we run our programs,and that's what makes us legal
and the fact that we run a rangeof programs too.
You know, we've got afterschool, we've got school holidays,
we've got school age forhomeschoolers and we've got
preschool.
So you couldn't fit us in anyone category, because we aren't
just one category.
The only exemption there isreally running as a family
(11:53):
daycare operator.
But then of course you have tohave a house, you have to run
from the house, you have toleave.
If you're running a bush kindyprogram, you have to leave from
the house in the morning and youhave to come back to the house
in the afternoon.
You can't just drop off to alocation, and then you're very
limited with how many childrenyou can have.
I think it's four and then twoschool-age children or something
like that.
So you're limited that way aswell.
(12:15):
So really no.
I mean, your big dream might beto have a five-day-a-week
nature play drop-off program.
If you're going to run that inNew South Wales, you're going to
get shut down eventually,unless you can justify your
outdoor rec program.
Speaker 3 (12:33):
And even as we were pointing out before when we were
chatting about it, is that youdon't see outdoor rec drop-off
programs.
They don't exist, yeah.
Or preschool aged children.
Speaker 1 (12:45):
The few that I do know run as cultural programs
and they are wonderful.
It's a very small amount ofthose that have been left alone
to run yeah.
Speaker 3 (12:58):
So essentially, what we're trying to say is that
there are so many nature playbusinesses out there running.
They're running legally,they're not going to be shut
down because they follow all ofthe things, the same sort of
principles that we follow by.
So making sure that you knowyou read the regulation properly
(13:18):
and look at the wording and askyourself the questions am I
running?
Do I fit under that heading?
So if you do have a very closelook at the Child Care Services
Act, have a very close look atthe Child Care Services Act.
It tells you the categories ofchild care there and you can
(13:38):
look at and see where you thinkyou fit based within that
wording.
We can still have questions,which brings us to our next top
tip, which is you actually needto make contact with a
department, some governmentagency of some sort, and ask
questions.
Speaker 1 (13:56):
Yeah, people are terrified of doing this, you
know, and I think sometimes wedo consults and we get quite a
few of them and, oh, can I dothat?
Can I call them?
Oh, what if I say the wrongthing?
What if I think that I'm legaland then I tell them what I want
to run and then they tell methat it's illegal.
I'm like, well, you're betteroff knowing now before you start
(14:18):
them, three years down thetrack and being closed down.
So I guess our first tip thereis A you can call anonymously.
So just call and say I'd liketo remain anonymous.
I haven't started my program yet, but I want to make sure that
what I am running will be legal.
I don't want to be shut down, Idon't want to be running
illegally because, also, ifyou're running illegally, your
(14:40):
insurance won't cover you.
I think people forget this too.
You might be insured becauseyou're an insurer, but they're
two completely separateindustries.
So your insurer is not going tocheck that you've made all the
correct checks, ticks andbalances to run your program.
They're going to assume thatyou have, and if you haven't
done that correctly andsomething happens, then they go
(15:02):
oh, you weren't running legally,bad luck, you're not covered.
Speaker 3 (15:05):
That's right.
Yeah, and I think that is areally important point to make,
is that your insurer is onlygoing to cover you for what
you've told them you've beendoing, and sometimes they don't
ask those questions after, untilthey're investigating.
Speaker 1 (15:23):
Until the department says they were running an
illegal childcare service, evenif you didn't know that.
So this is the thing.
This is why you have to do yourresearch, because you may be
misinformed if you're starting aprogram because Vicky down the
road is starting has got awonderful program that you just
assume is legal because it'srunning.
Yeah, you know, you have to doyour own research.
Speaker 3 (15:45):
Yeah, you have to do your own research, and then what
you do also need to do is youneed to have documentation and a
record of the responses thatyou get.
So our next tip, once you'vemade contact and you've talked
to someone, is to make sure thatyou write it down, that you
note it down, that you even popit in an email, ask them for
(16:06):
their email address, send it tothem to confirm the information
that they've given you, and thatway you can come back and say
but I did my due diligence, Idid the very best that I could
in contacting them to get theanswers that I needed.
And this is what they said andyou've got that evidence written
down and it's probably you mayas well not make the call unless
you've got that evidencerecorded in some way.
Speaker 1 (16:29):
Yeah, I would also add there be the squeaky wheel,
because I mean, we went throughthis over seven years ago, right
, and they had no idea where toput us.
So at least now a lot morepeople are making these calls.
They are very much aware of howmany more nature play programs
are out there, but in thebeginning they honestly were
like we don't know where to putyou, we don't know where to slot
(16:50):
you, it's not us Call.
So a CEQA would say which isthe childcare body here in
Queensland would say call theeducation department.
We'd call the educationdepartment.
They'd say call CEQA.
And then both of them would say, oh, it's actually out to a
wreck.
So that's where we got toeventually.
But I think where I'm goingwith that is it took us over
(17:11):
three months, or was it sixmonths in the end, probably even
longer by the time.
Speaker 3 (17:15):
We've talked to lots of different, because then you
know, then it was the councilwith land, and you know, yeah,
it comes down to not only theeducation department or any
other government agency in thatway, it might even come down to
whose land you're using, likethe same applies for asking
(17:37):
permission to run the program onthe land that you're using,
whether that's government land.
So the same tips apply for thattoo, in making sure you write
down who you spoke to, whatdepartment they're, from their
contact details.
Speaker 1 (17:53):
How it's zoned.
Speaker 3 (17:54):
All dated and documented and then following it
up with an email confirmingthis is the information that
you've given me.
Is this correct, so that you'vegot a?
Speaker 1 (18:02):
paper trail.
That's where I was going.
This is because they didn'tknow where to put us.
They were kind of just lettingthe email go.
So it wasn't until I called andwas like I sent an email three
months ago and then two monthsago and then one month ago and I
haven't heard anything.
Who do I need to speak to?
Is there a manager?
And they're like, oh, we justdon't know who to send you to.
I said, well, put me up, likekeep calling up.
(18:24):
So I think people are so scaredto make the call and they're so
scared to rock the boat, like Ithink they think that the
education department will punishthem, for you know making noise
and asking questions, they'reyour governing body.
You know they're a governmentagency.
That is their job is to helppeople do things legally.
(18:46):
So there is nothing wrong withyou asking questions and in fact
you should be applauded forasking those questions instead
of just having a crack and notactually knowing where you fit.
So anyway, long story, shortcall.
We had way more success callingthan emailing.
But then also ask them tofollow up with an email
summarizing what you said, orsend them an email and saying,
(19:08):
just summarizing our phone call.
So there's an email trail.
You need evidence.
If poop ever hits a fan, youneed to be able to show your
documentation trail to provethat you've done your due
diligence.
Speaker 3 (19:21):
And I think the other really important part of this
conversation is that you sort ofhave to flex that muscle and
train that muscle to have hardconversations.
Yes, Put yourself out of yourcomfort zone.
I say this completely withinthe knowledge that I was not the
one making these phone calls.
It was Nikki.
Speaker 1 (19:41):
I had your support.
I had a cheerleader.
Speaker 3 (19:44):
Full transparency.
But we've all learned over thecourse of running a business
that you need to be comfortablein putting yourself out there,
having phone calls, askingquestions and being prepared to
hear things that you don't wantto hear, because, surprisingly,
questions and being prepared tohear things that you don't want
(20:05):
to hear because, surprisingly,most of the time we don't hear
anything.
That makes it a complete no.
Yes, don't think we've come tothe point where it's been a hard
no, no, it's always been a.
Well, how do we and they canhelp us to find solutions as
well, and you might actually bepart of the bigger grand scheme
of changing what happens forother people when they call up,
(20:27):
because we're solidifying thatinformation and showing them
that this is a really big,important industry that's coming
up.
People want this and they needto start making some decisions
and having consultations with usas an industry to work out what
to do with us moving forward,so that it isn't as grey.
Speaker 1 (20:46):
Hear, hear Absolutely , and I think this is where it's
really important.
By staying quiet and, you know,guessing at things, we're not
changing anything and actuallyit makes us look like cowboys
and cowgirls.
You know when you hear oh,they're running an illegal
childcare service.
That was obviously never theirintention, never.
(21:08):
It was to provide a servicethat parents were crying out for
, really want, and the people Iknow that have been closed down
have been running spectacularprograms, beautiful.
Their problem is at the momentthere is nowhere for them to fit
in that particular structure oftheir program.
So I've seen some starting todo online courses.
I've seen some just completelyadd and subtract programs, run
(21:31):
different hours, run differentdays.
So please know it's not alwaysa no, it's a how can we do
things differently and still dowhat we want to do?
It just might look a bitdifferent.
Speaker 3 (21:43):
Absolutely.
We hope that those top tips forsetting up a business that's
legal have come in handy.
We talked about knowing yourindustry, making sure you
understand where you fit,understand what your business
structure is and what you'retrying to provide, and having a
really good look at anylegislation that applies to that
, then making contact with thosedepartments, asking the
(22:06):
questions you can callanonymously if you have to and
recording all of thatinformation down so that you've
got a record of theconversations and the decisions
that have been made so that youcan sleep at night and know that
your business is completelylegal.
Speaker 1 (22:21):
And therefore your insurance will cover you.
You know we're all here forchildren and if you're not
running legally, then you're notcovered and so you're actually
could potentially harm children.
So please think of that andplease make sure you're legal.
If you want any help with that,then obviously our Wild
Business course has all of this.
It's an entire module all aboutmaking sure you're legal,
(22:44):
whether that's this section ofit which is speaking to
government agencies, whetherit's insurance, whether it's
permits making sure you're inthe right zoning.
I think that's probably anothertopic for another podcast, but
of course, you can also justhire us for a consult.
Just shoot us an email at helloat wildlingsforestschoolcom and
(23:05):
we can.
If you've got a really specificquestion, we can just help you
out with that.
Good luck.
We know that everyone has thebest intentions, and I think
this is where we talk about thisquite often, where sometimes
your intentions don't equal yourimpact.
So really arm yourself withknowledge, arm yourself with
(23:31):
knowledge so that your impactmatches your intentions.
Speaker 2 (23:35):
Until next week stay well, Stay well.
There's a lot of anxiety in the nature plate
industry at the moment becausewe've heard of quite a few
businesses being shut down,which is obviously pretty scary
if you're in this sector andindustry at the moment, and
ourselves well, we've beenreceiving quite a few calls
asking for help and advice onhow to prevent being shut down
after the business has receiveda cease and desist letter,
(00:20):
whether that's from a CEQA orthe education department.
Now we also know that for a lotof people who follow us on
Raising Wildlings that are keento start their own wild business
, that one of the main reasonsthey never take the leap is that
they're worried about beingshut down or doing things wrong
or not being legal, which isgreat, actually.
We're actually really, reallypleased that that's a concern,
(00:43):
but we thought it was about timewe address these concerns and
give you our top tips on how toavoid being shut down.
Speaker 3 (00:53):
I'd like to acknowledge the traditional
owners and custodians of thelands on which we work the Kabi
Kabi and the Gubbi Gubbi people.
I'd like to recognise theircontinuing connection to the
land and waters and thank themfor protecting this coastline
and its ecosystems.
Since time immemorial we payour respects to Elders past,
present and extend that respectto all First Nations people
(01:14):
listening today.
Speaker 2 (01:16):
Welcome to Raising Wildlings, a podcast about
parenting, alternative educationand stepping into the
wilderness, however that lookswith your family.
Speaker 1 (01:25):
Each week, we'll be interviewing experts that truly
inspire us to answer yourparenting and education
questions.
We'll also be sharing storiesfrom some incredible families
that took the leap and aretaking the road less travelled.
Speaker 2 (01:39):
We're your hosts.
Vicky and Nikki from WildlingsForest School, pop in your
headphones, settle in and joinus on this next adventure.
Speaker 3 (01:48):
Hello and welcome to the Raising Wildlings podcast.
We're your hosts today, VickyOliver and Nikki Farrell.
It's been a hot minute, sincethe two of us have been together
on a podcast and this is areally important topic that we
wanted to chat about todaybecause we have had a lot of
people talking about it.
It's been a topic of discussionon our Facebook groups for a
while business and we think that, although it is a concern, we
(02:13):
definitely have some things tochat about to maybe put some
people's minds at ease,particularly because there are
lots of things that you can doto ensure that, if you're
running an HPA business, thatyou're doing it legally and that
you don't have that fearsitting on your you know the
back of your head about whetheror not you're going to get shut
down.
Very important informationtoday.
Speaker 1 (02:35):
Yeah.
So I think our first tip andyou know, these tips have
probably seemed really obvious,but it's also really obvious
that people aren't doing themreally obvious, but it's also
really obvious that peoplearen't doing them.
I think that's the glaringlyobvious thing to ask is that,
first of all, you need to knowyour industry, and I think the
first thing that people aregetting confused about is
(02:56):
actually where they fit.
So, vic, do you want to talkabout where we fit?
Speaker 3 (03:00):
Yeah.
So I mean it has been quite ablurry line, because we actually
do fit under outdoor recreation, which, when you look at the
definition of that, that'soutdoor leisure, time that's
spent outdoors, which isessentially what our programs
provide.
Now, if you were to do like akayaking trip or you know,
(03:23):
obviously Nikki, you've done awhole outdoor recreation course.
There is an element of learningthat goes into taking part in
leisure activities, which iswhere that crossover, I guess,
happens with the types ofactivities that we're providing
for children and I guess,because they are learning, it
does bleed into the ages of thechildren that we're working with
(03:44):
.
Oftentimes it bleeds intolooking a lot like an
educational program.
But there's a few definingcharacteristics that really are
important to consider in thefact that we are not providing
education programs at the sametime.
But the other thing I also wantto really highlight is there's
(04:06):
such a scope of what people aredoing when it comes to nature,
play and businesses.
If you are very specificallyjust providing a nature kindy
experience, then you would bebleeding more into early
childcare, as opposed to ourbusiness, which really has a
plethora of different types ofprograms that we provide,
(04:30):
including a bushcunny, but wenot exclusively and it's not the
whole part of our business.
In fact we probably deal witholder children, and then there's
also this concept of outdoorrecreation and outdoor education
and also environmentaleducation.
So I guess the purpose ofbringing this up is to get
really clear on where you bestthink your type of programming
(04:55):
sits.
What is the purpose of yourprogram?
For a lot of people it'sactually teaching more about the
environment, which would thenlend yourself more to
environmental education, and forother people it is more on the
outdoor recreational side ofthings and I guess there's a
little less structure than someof the other outdoor rec
(05:16):
activities, but it still haselements of lots of those things
as well, like hiking and thingslike raft building, and there's
so much crossover, which is, Iguess, what makes it so blurry
sometimes.
Speaker 1 (05:30):
Yeah, and I think you made a really good point there
that if you're only offeringservices to preschool age, then
it's going to be reallydifficult to not be slotted into
the early years services andinto the Child Services Act.
And if you're only offeringyour programs to school-aged
children and you're running fivedays a week during school hours
(05:50):
, it's going to be really hardto not be slotted into the
school regulations.
So have a really good thinkabout A what programs you're
offering.
B what age you're offering themto.
C what days and times you'reoffering those programs, and
maybe make sure that you'reoffering a mix, or you just need
(06:14):
to know the difference, becausethis is where people are
getting tripped up andparticularly in New South Wales,
is people are pretty muchrunning only preschool and only
drop-off.
So if you're offering adrop-off service during school
hours, that's available fivedays a week during, and even if
(06:35):
you're not five days a week, ifyou're doing drop-off for
preschool age children, you're achildcare service.
So and in New South Wales thereis no exemption outside of this
Other states have exemptions.
So there are mobile services,there is tutoring, there are
occasional care, which you knowto be clear, occasional care is
generally only available tohotels and shopping malls and
(06:57):
things like that.
So there's only this reallylimited scope of exemptions in
different states where you canactually run drop-off programs.
So the reason people are beingshut down is because they are
actually running illegal daycareservices, childcare services.
So just because you can seesomeone else running it also
(07:18):
doesn't mean it's legal.
Speaker 3 (07:20):
That's exactly right, and I think that's a really
important distinction to make.
There are plenty of people outthere running phenomenal
programs.
Let's not deny that the programsthemselves aren't great, it
doesn't necessarily mean thatthey're meeting the legal
requirements in their state.
And that's the tricky partabout regulation is that we
cannot outright state here's howyou can run, because that is
(07:46):
going to be very specific towhere you live, and even outside
of Australia that's going to becompletely different, because
even levels of government runcompletely differently in
different places around theworld as well.
Speaker 1 (08:00):
So I just want to add one more bit there.
With the early years it's sotricky.
So to become an approvedchildcare provider because
sometimes people go, oh well,we'll just become approved and
then parents can get rebates,great.
But to be an approved provider,a, you need to go through that
(08:21):
application process, but B youcannot become a drop-off
childcare service without abuilding, without a gate and
without meeting all theincredibly specific requirements
required of a childcare centre.
So again, this is why natureplay programs that are based
purely outdoors just franklycannot be right now, and we're
(08:44):
hoping this changes as the yearscome.
You cannot be an approvedchildcare provider and run
purely outdoors at the moment.
Speaker 3 (08:52):
That's right, and I think it's really important to
note that, whilst there havebeen, obviously, people who have
been running outdoor programsof this nature for a very long
time, as an industry this isvery new.
It is taking, and it will take,a bit of time for the agencies
(09:13):
that are in charge of makingthese decisions to catch up with
what people are wanting toprovide and what families are
wanting to provide, wantingtheir children to have access to
as well.
So that's why it's reallyimportant to have these
conversations and that's why wetake our role very seriously in
making sure that people aregetting the correct information,
and we have that little pang,too, when we hear that someone's
being shut down.
(09:34):
You know you get that nervousfeeling of like, oh my goodness.
But when you peel back thelayers and you ask the right
questions, you find out thatit's really obvious why they
were shut down in the firstplace.
It's not like they're just, Idon't know, someone's just
decided that they don't likewhat they're doing and shut them
down because they reallyhaven't met very clear
(09:57):
regulatory guidelines orwhatever it is.
Speaker 1 (10:02):
Besides the facts of whether we agree with them or
not.
Right Like I would love, lovefor there to be a space in the
regs that say, yes, you can runa pure outdoors.
For there to be a space in theregs that say, yes, you can run
a pure outdoors.
You know, child care, approvedchild care provider, but at the
moment there just isn't.
So while we talk about runningin the grey zone all the time,
actually, when it comes to lawand regs, it's very clear cut
(10:24):
and it's very black and whiteand they don't run in the grey
zones.
So you know what we mean by thegrey zone is, you know, making
sure you know where you fit,because you may not like us.
We do not fit in as a school, wedo not fit as a childcare
service and we fit in outdoorrecreation because of the
plethora of programs that we runand how we run them.
(10:47):
So our early years programsessentially, are all parents
attending, right.
And then during school holidayswe do do drop off for school
age children during the holidays, which are not within school
programs.
And then there's thehomeschooling kind of.
It's not an exemption, but thisis where, if you're, you can
run homeschool activities forhomeschool children because it's
(11:09):
not a five day aweek program.
So that's what we mean by thegrey zone.
We don't mean there's a greyzone in what the law says.
Speaker 3 (11:17):
That's exactly right.
It's about us making sure thatwe are meeting those
requirements, but it's about usbending our programs to make
sure that we're not operatingillegally, like you said having
parents attending by beingspecific about when we run our
programs.
Speaker 1 (11:32):
having parents attending by being specific
about when we run our programs,and that's what makes us legal
and the fact that we run a rangeof programs too.
You know, we've got afterschool, we've got school holidays,
we've got school age forhomeschoolers and we've got
preschool.
So you couldn't fit us in anyone category, because we aren't
just one category.
The only exemption there isreally running as a family
(11:53):
daycare operator.
But then of course you have tohave a house, you have to run
from the house, you have toleave.
If you're running a bush kindyprogram, you have to leave from
the house in the morning and youhave to come back to the house
in the afternoon.
You can't just drop off to alocation, and then you're very
limited with how many childrenyou can have.
I think it's four and then twoschool-age children or something
like that.
So you're limited that way aswell.
(12:15):
So really no.
I mean, your big dream might beto have a five-day-a-week
nature play drop-off program.
If you're going to run that inNew South Wales, you're going to
get shut down eventually,unless you can justify your
outdoor rec program.
Speaker 3 (12:33):
And even as we were pointing out before when we were
chatting about it, is that youdon't see outdoor rec drop-off
programs.
They don't exist, yeah.
Or preschool aged children.
Speaker 1 (12:45):
The few that I do know run as cultural programs
and they are wonderful.
It's a very small amount ofthose that have been left alone
to run yeah.
Speaker 3 (12:58):
So essentially, what we're trying to say is that
there are so many nature playbusinesses out there running.
They're running legally,they're not going to be shut
down because they follow all ofthe things, the same sort of
principles that we follow by.
So making sure that you knowyou read the regulation properly
(13:18):
and look at the wording and askyourself the questions am I
running?
Do I fit under that heading?
So if you do have a very closelook at the Child Care Services
Act, have a very close look atthe Child Care Services Act.
It tells you the categories ofchild care there and you can
(13:38):
look at and see where you thinkyou fit based within that
wording.
We can still have questions,which brings us to our next top
tip, which is you actually needto make contact with a
department, some governmentagency of some sort, and ask
questions.
Speaker 1 (13:56):
Yeah, people are terrified of doing this, you
know, and I think sometimes wedo consults and we get quite a
few of them and, oh, can I dothat?
Can I call them?
Oh, what if I say the wrongthing?
What if I think that I'm legaland then I tell them what I want
to run and then they tell methat it's illegal.
I'm like, well, you're betteroff knowing now before you start
(14:18):
them, three years down thetrack and being closed down.
So I guess our first tip thereis A you can call anonymously.
So just call and say I'd liketo remain anonymous.
I haven't started my program yet, but I want to make sure that
what I am running will be legal.
I don't want to be shut down, Idon't want to be running
illegally because, also, ifyou're running illegally, your
(14:40):
insurance won't cover you.
I think people forget this too.
You might be insured becauseyou're an insurer, but they're
two completely separateindustries.
So your insurer is not going tocheck that you've made all the
correct checks, ticks andbalances to run your program.
They're going to assume thatyou have, and if you haven't
done that correctly andsomething happens, then they go
(15:02):
oh, you weren't running legally,bad luck, you're not covered.
Speaker 3 (15:05):
That's right.
Yeah, and I think that is areally important point to make,
is that your insurer is onlygoing to cover you for what
you've told them you've beendoing, and sometimes they don't
ask those questions after, untilthey're investigating.
Speaker 1 (15:23):
Until the department says they were running an
illegal childcare service, evenif you didn't know that.
So this is the thing.
This is why you have to do yourresearch, because you may be
misinformed if you're starting aprogram because Vicky down the
road is starting has got awonderful program that you just
assume is legal because it'srunning.
Yeah, you know, you have to doyour own research.
Speaker 3 (15:45):
Yeah, you have to do your own research, and then what
you do also need to do is youneed to have documentation and a
record of the responses thatyou get.
So our next tip, once you'vemade contact and you've talked
to someone, is to make sure thatyou write it down, that you
note it down, that you even popit in an email, ask them for
(16:06):
their email address, send it tothem to confirm the information
that they've given you, and thatway you can come back and say
but I did my due diligence, Idid the very best that I could
in contacting them to get theanswers that I needed.
And this is what they said andyou've got that evidence written
down and it's probably you mayas well not make the call unless
you've got that evidencerecorded in some way.
Speaker 1 (16:29):
Yeah, I would also add there be the squeaky wheel,
because I mean, we went throughthis over seven years ago, right
, and they had no idea where toput us.
So at least now a lot morepeople are making these calls.
They are very much aware of howmany more nature play programs
are out there, but in thebeginning they honestly were
like we don't know where to putyou, we don't know where to slot
(16:50):
you, it's not us Call.
So a CEQA would say which isthe childcare body here in
Queensland would say call theeducation department.
We'd call the educationdepartment.
They'd say call CEQA.
And then both of them would say, oh, it's actually out to a
wreck.
So that's where we got toeventually.
But I think where I'm goingwith that is it took us over
(17:11):
three months, or was it sixmonths in the end, probably even
longer by the time.
Speaker 3 (17:15):
We've talked to lots of different, because then you
know, then it was the councilwith land, and you know, yeah,
it comes down to not only theeducation department or any
other government agency in thatway, it might even come down to
whose land you're using, likethe same applies for asking
(17:37):
permission to run the program onthe land that you're using,
whether that's government land.
So the same tips apply for thattoo, in making sure you write
down who you spoke to, whatdepartment they're, from their
contact details.
Speaker 1 (17:53):
How it's zoned.
Speaker 3 (17:54):
All dated and documented and then following it
up with an email confirmingthis is the information that
you've given me.
Is this correct, so that you'vegot a?
Speaker 1 (18:02):
paper trail.
That's where I was going.
This is because they didn'tknow where to put us.
They were kind of just lettingthe email go.
So it wasn't until I called andwas like I sent an email three
months ago and then two monthsago and then one month ago and I
haven't heard anything.
Who do I need to speak to?
Is there a manager?
And they're like, oh, we justdon't know who to send you to.
I said, well, put me up, likekeep calling up.
(18:24):
So I think people are so scaredto make the call and they're so
scared to rock the boat, like Ithink they think that the
education department will punishthem, for you know making noise
and asking questions, they'reyour governing body.
You know they're a governmentagency.
That is their job is to helppeople do things legally.
(18:46):
So there is nothing wrong withyou asking questions and in fact
you should be applauded forasking those questions instead
of just having a crack and notactually knowing where you fit.
So anyway, long story, shortcall.
We had way more success callingthan emailing.
But then also ask them tofollow up with an email
summarizing what you said, orsend them an email and saying,
(19:08):
just summarizing our phone call.
So there's an email trail.
You need evidence.
If poop ever hits a fan, youneed to be able to show your
documentation trail to provethat you've done your due
diligence.
Speaker 3 (19:21):
And I think the other really important part of this
conversation is that you sort ofhave to flex that muscle and
train that muscle to have hardconversations.
Yes, Put yourself out of yourcomfort zone.
I say this completely withinthe knowledge that I was not the
one making these phone calls.
It was Nikki.
Speaker 1 (19:41):
I had your support.
I had a cheerleader.
Speaker 3 (19:44):
Full transparency.
But we've all learned over thecourse of running a business
that you need to be comfortablein putting yourself out there,
having phone calls, askingquestions and being prepared to
hear things that you don't wantto hear, because, surprisingly,
questions and being prepared tohear things that you don't want
(20:05):
to hear because, surprisingly,most of the time we don't hear
anything.
That makes it a complete no.
Yes, don't think we've come tothe point where it's been a hard
no, no, it's always been a.
Well, how do we and they canhelp us to find solutions as
well, and you might actually bepart of the bigger grand scheme
of changing what happens forother people when they call up,
(20:27):
because we're solidifying thatinformation and showing them
that this is a really big,important industry that's coming
up.
People want this and they needto start making some decisions
and having consultations with usas an industry to work out what
to do with us moving forward,so that it isn't as grey.
Speaker 1 (20:46):
Hear, hear Absolutely , and I think this is where it's
really important.
By staying quiet and, you know,guessing at things, we're not
changing anything and actuallyit makes us look like cowboys
and cowgirls.
You know when you hear oh,they're running an illegal
childcare service.
That was obviously never theirintention, never.
(21:08):
It was to provide a servicethat parents were crying out for
, really want, and the people Iknow that have been closed down
have been running spectacularprograms, beautiful.
Their problem is at the momentthere is nowhere for them to fit
in that particular structure oftheir program.
So I've seen some starting todo online courses.
I've seen some just completelyadd and subtract programs, run
(21:31):
different hours, run differentdays.
So please know it's not alwaysa no, it's a how can we do
things differently and still dowhat we want to do?
It just might look a bitdifferent.
Speaker 3 (21:43):
Absolutely.
We hope that those top tips forsetting up a business that's
legal have come in handy.
We talked about knowing yourindustry, making sure you
understand where you fit,understand what your business
structure is and what you'retrying to provide, and having a
really good look at anylegislation that applies to that
, then making contact with thosedepartments, asking the
(22:06):
questions you can callanonymously if you have to and
recording all of thatinformation down so that you've
got a record of theconversations and the decisions
that have been made so that youcan sleep at night and know that
your business is completelylegal.
Speaker 1 (22:21):
And therefore your insurance will cover you.
You know we're all here forchildren and if you're not
running legally, then you're notcovered and so you're actually
could potentially harm children.
So please think of that andplease make sure you're legal.
If you want any help with that,then obviously our Wild
Business course has all of this.
It's an entire module all aboutmaking sure you're legal,
(22:44):
whether that's this section ofit which is speaking to
government agencies, whetherit's insurance, whether it's
permits making sure you're inthe right zoning.
I think that's probably anothertopic for another podcast, but
of course, you can also justhire us for a consult.
Just shoot us an email at helloat wildlingsforestschoolcom and
(23:05):
we can.
If you've got a really specificquestion, we can just help you
out with that.
Good luck.
We know that everyone has thebest intentions, and I think
this is where we talk about thisquite often, where sometimes
your intentions don't equal yourimpact.
So really arm yourself withknowledge, arm yourself with
(23:31):
knowledge so that your impactmatches your intentions.
Speaker 2 (23:35):
Until next week stay well, Stay well.
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