Have you ever felt crushed by criticism from a parent, especially when you're pouring your heart into your business? We've been there. This week, we share our emotional journey as nature play program facilitators, discussing how initially taking negative feedback to heart, evolved into seeing it as a critical avenue for growth. By reframing criticism and using it to reaffirm our beliefs and improve communication, we’ve developed a more resilient mindset that empowers us to turn critiques into valuable learning experiences.
We also dive into the significance of clearly articulating the value and philosophy behind our nature programs to parents. Discover how emphasizing the intangible benefits—like fostering deep flow states and promoting non-traditional learning—can help parents appreciate the true impact on their children. Balancing feedback while staying true to our mission is key, and we explain why being explicit about our program’s offerings attracts the right participants. Join us for an insightful conversation on navigating feedback, maintaining authenticity, and ensuring that those who genuinely align with our goals thrive within our program.
Ever wondered how to bring the magic of 'Nature Play' into your child's education? Or how to say goodbye to your worries about snakes and ticks? With Nature Play Now, crafting an epic outdoor program is easier than you think. You’ll boost your confidence, skill sets, and have parents eager to enrol. Join the adventure for just $57, exclusively for Raising Wildlings listeners. Visit our Raising Wildlings website for more details today!"
www.r If you enjoyed this episode of Raising Wildlings. We invite you to check out Your Wild Business, our signature business course for education change-makers who are ready to create or refine their own nature play businesses. Your Wild Business is the only program that focuses on the business side of nature play, with sustainable practices, processes, and systems that will cut down your administration work, giving you more time to focus on building a business that is centered around your e Other ways we can help you:
1. Ready to create your own Nature Play business? Head to www.raisingwildlings.com.au/wildbusiness to access the roadmap to starting your business journey.
2. Keen to find your purpose in 10 minutes? Download our FREE treasure map to find your passion without compromising your educational values.
3. Want to know how to craft an epic outdoor program that has parents and directors lining up to enrol? You need Nature Play Now our $57 Workshop and Bundle series (people are saying this is a steal!)
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Picture this it's your seventh week running your
very own nature play program.
You're still very new, but youare loving this new career path
as a business owner who gets toplay outdoors.
But then one of your familieswho's been attending all term
tells you that they'll no longerbe attending because they've
realized, quote unquote yourprogram is just not for me.
Ouch, today we're going toexplore how to handle criticism
(00:24):
when not if it comes.
Speaker 2 (00:30):
Before I start, I'd like to acknowledge the
traditional custodians of theland on which this podcast is
recorded the Kabi Kabi and theGubbi Gubbi people.
I'd like to honour theirsonglines and storylines and pay
respects to the elders, past,present and those that are
emerging.
I'd also like to acknowledgethe traditional custodians of
the land on which you arelistening to this episode.
Welcome to Raising Wildlings, apodcast about parenting,
(00:54):
alternative education, steppinginto the wilderness, however
that looks, with your family.
Speaker 1 (00:59):
Each week, we'll be interviewing experts that truly
inspire us to answer yourparenting and education
questions.
We'll also be sharing storiesfrom some incredible families
that took the leap and aretaking the road less travelled.
Speaker 2 (01:13):
We're your hosts, vicki and Nikki from Wildlings
Forest School.
Pop in your headphones, settlein and join us on this next
adventure.
Hello and welcome to theRaising Wildlings podcast.
We are your hosts, vicky Oliverand Nikki Farrell.
Now today, we thought it wouldbe a really great opportunity to
talk a bit about criticism,negative feedback, hearing
(01:38):
things that make us feel reallyhurt, embarrassed, confused,
maybe when someone's been at ourprogram and they haven't had a
good time for one reason oranother.
Speaker 1 (01:50):
Because it will happen.
Make no bones about it.
You will get criticism.
You cannot run a business andbe a business owner without
being criticized and, let's behonest, we took this really
personally when you know andpart of that is, you know, we
are good girls, we'reperfectionists, all of those
things they're.
Also, this is our baby.
(02:11):
You know, we started it from alittle seed and it grew and
we've put everything into it.
You know time, money,everything.
So it did feel like even thoughit wasn't a bit of an attack on
us personally and the thingthat we loved.
Speaker 2 (02:25):
Yes, and because you know it's all been ideated and
born through a love of what wedo and a philosophy, and seeing
how much of an impact it's hadfor us and our families and
other families, it can be reallyjarring to hear someone say
that is not the impact we'rehaving hear someone say that is
not the impact we're having.
Speaker 1 (02:45):
Yeah, I remember just feeling defeated, like we'd put
all this time and effort intoit and then wondering has this
all just been a big waste oftime?
Like, have we just spent hoursand days, and you know, being so
excited about this, but nowwere people just not going to
turn up?
Or when they turned up, arethey just going to leave?
Are we going to actually have abusiness?
(03:07):
Are we going to make any moneyout of this?
It was really scary.
Speaker 2 (03:11):
Yeah, and I think that you know.
It's so true that you can havea million five-star reviews, you
can have people gushing overwhat you do, and all of that can
fly out of your brain as soonas someone says something
negative and that is all you canfocus on and you cannot think
of anything else, because thepower of negativity can be so
(03:34):
much more impactful thanpositivity.
Unfortunately and it's soupsetting now when we see this
coming through, because we stillhave to deal with this from
time to time with our staff whohave to with negative feedback
that we may get in coaching themthrough that feeling.
Speaker 1 (03:53):
Yeah, it's such a terrible human condition, isn't
it, that literally, we havethousands of five-star reviews
and I reckon we've probably had10 in seven years, you know,
negative reviews, some of themtotally unwarranted, some of
them warranted but my gosh, dowe remember those still?
(04:14):
And it does take time.
I think that's another thing isit just takes time to move
through them.
But let's have a talk aboutnegative feedback, criticism,
complaints and the fact thatmaybe we're looking at this all
wrong.
Speaker 2 (04:28):
Yeah, and it's taken us a long time to reframe this,
even for ourselves, becausethere needs to be a moment of
reflection.
I am such a I just get really abit icky about reflective
practice and you know, sort ofterms that get thrown around and
(04:48):
I guess sometimes, evenparticularly in the education
space, we're sort of forced todo like reflective practice.
I remember being reallyfrustrated at having to do that,
but I think that there are anumber of outcomes that can come
from reflective practice and Ithink for me it always felt like
I had to find somethingnegative to fix.
I think that's probably whereit stems from.
(05:09):
Now that I'm talking out loud.
I think reflective practice forme always was like this
admitting of something beingwrong.
And I've reframed thatcompletely now because
reflection can actually be a wayto affirm what we already know
to be true in a positive way,because that negative feedback,
that criticism or that complaintmay be completely wrong.
Speaker 1 (05:34):
And I think, just quickly going back to that
negative, like you said, yourinitial reaction quite often
particularly in a small business, when it's your baby is defense
, like oh, I can't believe, ohmy God would that they'd think
that.
But, like you said, quite oftenthe longer and I think it's
just a muscle that needs to beexercised as well is that the
(05:54):
longer you go through with thisyou go.
Oh, actually, exactly what yousaid.
It's affirmed, what I believe.
I just need to be clearer in it, in what I'm saying on my
website.
Speaker 2 (06:05):
Yeah, and that is maybe the takeaway from that is,
maybe this is the first timeit's come up, maybe you've been
running for a really long timebefore you get some form of
negative feedback and straightaway you go into that defensive
mode and you go actually.
So it affirms what I know aboutmyself and if I go through
everything that I provide, myexpectations are actually clear.
(06:27):
Maybe it was on them.
I'll probably come back to that, or maybe it is exactly that.
How can I deliver my messagebetter to my customers so that
they know what to expect andthey know what we're about and
they know exactly what we do andwhat it looks like?
Speaker 1 (06:48):
Because sometimes the feedback is the staff did
nothing.
Speaker 2 (06:59):
Yeah, how do you explain these intangible things
like when?
Speaker 1 (07:02):
there's a more negative outcome for children
because they're interrupting theplay.
That's a whole positive, awhole.
Another podcast, that one.
Speaker 2 (07:07):
Yeah, so that feedback is important to ensure
that we are on the right track.
Speaker 1 (07:14):
Yeah, well done staff .
Speaker 2 (07:15):
Thank you, you're doing a great job and sometimes
does that negative feeling is areally good place for us to just
check.
And if you come out the otherside after particularly if
you've got someone to talk tothis through with, whether it's
other staff members, whetherit's another someone else who's
at your program if you'rechecking in and finding out from
(07:38):
someone who you do know ishaving a good time or a good
friend, and you come out theother side and you're like I
feel better about when I talkabout it.
I know that that doesn't feellike a true criticism or
something that I need to change.
Speaker 1 (07:52):
I think another good thing to remember is that a
hundred percent of conflictsarise from miscommunication, so
generally it's just somethingthat's been miscommunicated.
Maybe, like you said, yourexpectations haven't been clear,
whether that's in yourenrollment pack or your booking
sheet or your website or yoursocials.
So often the feedback that youreceive is ah, I need to be
(08:15):
clearer about this specificpoint and unfortunately that
takes years as a small business.
If you're starting from scratchwith no help and no templates,
you're making this up as you goand you're only changing it when
you react to the feedback.
Yeah, so you're just going tohave to grow that muscle more
quickly.
Speaker 2 (08:32):
You might actually and oftentimes, when we've
received some sort of feedbackabout something not going right
and it might it's notnecessarily like a negative
feedback.
It'd be like, hey, I had a realtrouble with this booking.
Part of your or your websitedid this and it didn't go where
it was meant to go.
They actually save you.
You're like oh, I hadn'tbrought that to my attention, I
wouldn't have been able to fixit and therefore, now that it's
(08:55):
fixed, my business is better.
Speaker 1 (08:57):
Yeah, and we, whenever we get a complaint,
constructive feedback and areview that's less than for our
team, less than five stars, butfor us, less than you know,
probably three or two stars wewill contact them and the first
thing we do is say thank you,thank you for bringing this to
our attention.
We don't know, particularly nowthat we're not on the ground as
(09:20):
much we don't know unless youtell us.
So this is the other thingplease don't, if you're a
program attendee, please don'tjust ghost if you have a problem
, because it won't get fixed forother people.
So you know, unless it'ssomething just bitchy, it needs
to be constructive feedback,please.
Speaker 2 (09:38):
You don't have to give any airtime to someone
who's nasty.
Speaker 1 (09:41):
No.
Speaker 2 (09:42):
Providing feedback that is unhelpful.
Speaker 1 (09:50):
Yeah, you still need to maintain healthy boundaries
within business.
The customer is not alwaysright in the way that they
communicate, but if you can getto the seed of what it is that
they're actually trying toprovide feedback about generally
, it's only going to help yourbusiness.
Speaker 2 (10:01):
Absolutely so.
When we get to this point here,the most important question
that you need to ask yourself,whether it's at this point or
even beforehand, is knowing inyour heart of heart what value
does my program provide, or mycommunity?
Is it physical, Is it community?
(10:22):
Is it autonomy for children, isit connection with nature?
It doesn't really matter.
What matters is that you knowin your heart of hearts exactly
what value you provide, and thenthe next step with that is
making sure that it is in yourmarketing, your emails, your
socials, your websites.
You clearly talk about thiswherever you can, because
(10:44):
they're intangible things thatpeople will not know unless you
say it out loud.
And another thing that we oftendo in addition to that is to
sometimes sort of narrate whatwe're thinking in programs,
which is really helpful topeople to be able to hear what's
(11:05):
actually going on, what you'reobserving, so that they can see
the intangible things as well.
Speaker 1 (11:10):
Yeah, I think people are often looking for a tangible
exchange for money.
You know, I paid this amount,so I expect this amount of
resources or I expect thisamount of one-on-one time with a
staff member, but so often thebenefits in a nature play
program are invaluable, you know, and they're missing from many
people's day-to-day lives.
So this is our quote unquoteproduct.
(11:32):
This is our actual value and weneed to remind people of that
and, exactly like you said,narrating it, what is it your
child is learning right now,even though there's no staff
member near them?
What is your child learningright now, even though they're
quote unquote just playing inthe mud?
These are the things,especially coming from a school
centric society, that parentsoften need educating in, because
(11:53):
they don't know what learninglooks like outside of a school
system.
Speaker 2 (11:57):
And even saying stuff like I'm really worried.
If I went over there right now,I would interrupt their play, I
would change the dynamic, youknow, saying exactly what your
interference would cause in anegative way, so that they can
see that your role is actuallyassessing at every moment how
much we have to we injectourselves on the children,
(12:19):
because I think a lot of peoplelove the idea of connecting with
the facilitators and that isreally important, but also
knowing that as facilitators andas a philosophy, there is a
really fine line between thosemoments when we're called in and
those moments when we're forcedourselves in and the
interaction still might lookreally good and there's nothing
(12:40):
overtly negative about it, butthere is still an unintended
consequence because we forcedourselves on the children.
So that can be a part of thenarration as well.
Speaker 1 (12:50):
Children don't get many opportunities to get into a
deep flow state and I honestlythink that is one of the biggest
values we provide is the timeand space and the educators that
understand this, to allow themto get into a deep state of flow
.
How do you educate parents onthat messaging?
(13:13):
It's educating in your podcast.
Speaker 2 (13:14):
it's educating on your socials in your reels, yada
yada about flow states.
Yeah, and it might be.
A really good opportunity isafter a session, if something
like that has come up is to justpop your camera on and talk to
the camera and say this is whathappened and this is.
You know why I did or didn't dosomething in my program, and
this can often be misconstrued,or this can be.
This is why it's reallyimportant that I talk about this
(13:34):
, because you may not know thatthat's what's happening from my
perspective as the professionalin this circumstance.
Speaker 1 (13:43):
Another good way to frame things as well is that
just ask yourself whether aperson, if they didn't pay for
your program, would they begetting the benefits and the
value that you know are in yourprogram anywhere else in their
life right now without attendingyour program in the amounts
that they're getting it.
(14:03):
In that you know two or threehour timeframe, and I can tell
you that's exactly why Vicky andI started nature play groups
and Forest Kindy because we knew, unless we made a commitment
every week where we were payingto turn up, it's too easy to go,
it's too wet, it's too cold,it's too hot, I can't be
bothered, my kid's sick to notdo those things.
(14:24):
So, in fact, the fact thatyou're offering a paid service
enables people to actually enjoythose benefits where they quite
often just won't choose to dothem on their own.
Speaker 2 (14:35):
That's right.
And then it just got methinking too about because that
negativity is loud.
It's loud to us.
It's very easy to go down,particularly if you're, like us,
the people pleasing route, andwe have done this and we have
been burned and learned the hardway that if you cater to that
(14:56):
person's feedback in the waythat they expect and it is
outside of your philosophy,other there's other people
suffer.
So the children who areenjoying themselves, who are
having a great time, who allthat feedback coming back to you
is great because that's nothaving as much of an impact.
You and you want so badly toplease someone that you are
likely to do things, providemore resources, you know,
(15:21):
include more things in yourprogram that you don't believe
you actually need but you justwant to make this person happy
has unintended negativeconsequences on the rest of your
program, the rest of the people, the children in your program.
Ultimately they're who you'reserving.
That's why you're in this andyourself to make someone who
isn't necessarily going to stickaround and be happy anyway.
Speaker 1 (15:42):
Yeah, I think we very quickly learned that when we
bent over backwards, that Achildren weren't using them.
This is, in particular, I'mthinking of the feedback like,
oh, you're not providing enoughresources, they weren't using
them.
So when we provided more forparents, the children very
quickly showed us they'd stillrather play in the mud or the
creek with the trees.
And B it was unsustainable forthe environment, which is a huge
(16:04):
part of our mission as acompany.
And C those parents.
Actually, what they wereactually looking for was a very
structured quote unquoteeducational product rather than
process type program, and thatgoes against every one of our
educational philosophies.
And so they inevitably leftanyway, because what they
thought they wanted wasresources, but what they
(16:25):
actually wanted was aschool-based structured program,
and we were never going toprovide that.
So all that trouble to people,please, people that weren't our
ideal customer anyway, whodidn't understand our philosophy
and our mission.
But that feedback then led usto be very clear about what to
expect in our programs, which isfree play in nature.
(16:47):
That's it.
Speaker 2 (16:49):
Absolutely, and I mean like there's always fine
lines and dances between youknow, and even responding to the
feedback of the children in ourprograms, like or maybe they
are a little bit bored, likethey've been coming to us for a
while, like how can we extendthem, and things like that.
Back and forth reflectivepractice my favorite word, um,
that's important and it is.
(17:09):
It is not to say that sometimesthere isn't some element of
truth or we go okay, maybe I doneed to do a little bit of that,
but just being very carefulabout one person's feedback as
opposed to group dynamicfeedback.
Speaker 1 (17:29):
It's very different, too, when a child asks to be
extended essentially and aparent is stepping in on behalf
of that child what they believeis best for their child,
particularly when they're noteducation trained and also
sometimes too, um, if it is justone child, it can be really
draining on um personnelresources that one person is
(17:52):
constantly trying to entertainand falling into that trap as
well.
We are not entertainers, Remindyourself.
We are not here to entertain.
Speaker 2 (18:04):
Yeah, and that word has been Ben.
I don't know how to entertainthem anymore.
It's a trap.
It's a trap.
Speaker 1 (18:10):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (18:11):
So, yeah, being reflective and just coming up
with you know what is thefeeling, what, what do they need
?
And and asking some deeperquestions, as opposed to just
performative, I would say yes,yes.
Speaker 1 (18:27):
And I think finally I just want to bring up that
sometimes genuinely there isabsolutely no ill intent and the
program just is genuinely notfor them and that's okay.
And the sooner we come toaccept that we can't please
everybody and we shouldn'tplease everyone in business,
then the better off our ownmental health will be and our
income.
(18:48):
Because we need to actually beniching down in business and not
only in business.
We need to be niching down innature, play business, because
people are coming to yourprogram for you and what you
offer.
So there's no point in actuallymaking your program similar to
the next person down the road,Because if they find a program
that suits them elsewhere, it'snot an attack on you.
It's just that they've gotdifferent needs that your
(19:09):
program doesn't meet and that'sokay.
And I think maybe that's thehardest thing to accept.
But actually if you can acceptthat really soon and just be
really comfortable with what youoffer and understand people are
going to take it or leave it,the better off you'll be.
Speaker 2 (19:24):
Yeah, it can be really hard to hear negative
things, particularly if you'reanything like me.
You've been raised to be a goodgirl or a boy.
But, honestly, running abusiness is going to guarantee
that you can't please everyone.
So you need to know yourprogram's value and your worth.
Cannot emphasize that enough.
Market that value, particularlyif it's intangible.
(19:48):
It needs to be very clear.
You need to spell it out forpeople and they will.
You will get the people thatwant that.
They will come to you and thenyou'll have less of these,
hopefully, interactions withthat negativity, particularly
for those people that turn upthe first time and have that
feedback.
Speaker 1 (20:07):
And then know again, like we just talked about, that
genuinely your program won't befor some people, and that's okay
.
You can't please everyone.
It's not personal, it'sactually a good thing.
So just be careful not tochange to suit one very loud and
or hurtful voice.
They often won't stay no matterwhat you change anyway.
So stay true to yourself.
Speaker 2 (20:28):
And if you have any questions, please shoot them our
way and, as always, we lovedoing this journey with you, so
until next time stay wild.
Picture this it's your seventh week running your
very own nature play program.
You're still very new, but youare loving this new career path
as a business owner who gets toplay outdoors.
But then one of your familieswho's been attending all term
tells you that they'll no longerbe attending because they've
realized, quote unquote yourprogram is just not for me.
Ouch, today we're going toexplore how to handle criticism
(00:24):
when not if it comes.
Speaker 2 (00:30):
Before I start, I'd like to acknowledge the
traditional custodians of theland on which this podcast is
recorded the Kabi Kabi and theGubbi Gubbi people.
I'd like to honour theirsonglines and storylines and pay
respects to the elders, past,present and those that are
emerging.
I'd also like to acknowledgethe traditional custodians of
the land on which you arelistening to this episode.
Welcome to Raising Wildlings, apodcast about parenting,
(00:54):
alternative education, steppinginto the wilderness, however
that looks, with your family.
Speaker 1 (00:59):
Each week, we'll be interviewing experts that truly
inspire us to answer yourparenting and education
questions.
We'll also be sharing storiesfrom some incredible families
that took the leap and aretaking the road less travelled.
Speaker 2 (01:13):
We're your hosts, vicki and Nikki from Wildlings
Forest School.
Pop in your headphones, settlein and join us on this next
adventure.
Hello and welcome to theRaising Wildlings podcast.
We are your hosts, vicky Oliverand Nikki Farrell.
Now today, we thought it wouldbe a really great opportunity to
talk a bit about criticism,negative feedback, hearing
(01:38):
things that make us feel reallyhurt, embarrassed, confused,
maybe when someone's been at ourprogram and they haven't had a
good time for one reason oranother.
Speaker 1 (01:50):
Because it will happen.
Make no bones about it.
You will get criticism.
You cannot run a business andbe a business owner without
being criticized and, let's behonest, we took this really
personally when you know andpart of that is, you know, we
are good girls, we'reperfectionists, all of those
things they're.
Also, this is our baby.
(02:11):
You know, we started it from alittle seed and it grew and
we've put everything into it.
You know time, money,everything.
So it did feel like even thoughit wasn't a bit of an attack on
us personally and the thingthat we loved.
Speaker 2 (02:25):
Yes, and because you know it's all been ideated and
born through a love of what wedo and a philosophy, and seeing
how much of an impact it's hadfor us and our families and
other families, it can be reallyjarring to hear someone say
that is not the impact we'rehaving hear someone say that is
not the impact we're having.
Speaker 1 (02:45):
Yeah, I remember just feeling defeated, like we'd put
all this time and effort intoit and then wondering has this
all just been a big waste oftime?
Like, have we just spent hoursand days, and you know, being so
excited about this, but nowwere people just not going to
turn up?
Or when they turned up, arethey just going to leave?
Are we going to actually have abusiness?
(03:07):
Are we going to make any moneyout of this?
It was really scary.
Speaker 2 (03:11):
Yeah, and I think that you know.
It's so true that you can havea million five-star reviews, you
can have people gushing overwhat you do, and all of that can
fly out of your brain as soonas someone says something
negative and that is all you canfocus on and you cannot think
of anything else, because thepower of negativity can be so
(03:34):
much more impactful thanpositivity.
Unfortunately and it's soupsetting now when we see this
coming through, because we stillhave to deal with this from
time to time with our staff whohave to with negative feedback
that we may get in coaching themthrough that feeling.
Speaker 1 (03:53):
Yeah, it's such a terrible human condition, isn't
it, that literally, we havethousands of five-star reviews
and I reckon we've probably had10 in seven years, you know,
negative reviews, some of themtotally unwarranted, some of
them warranted but my gosh, dowe remember those still?
(04:14):
And it does take time.
I think that's another thing isit just takes time to move
through them.
But let's have a talk aboutnegative feedback, criticism,
complaints and the fact thatmaybe we're looking at this all
wrong.
Speaker 2 (04:28):
Yeah, and it's taken us a long time to reframe this,
even for ourselves, becausethere needs to be a moment of
reflection.
I am such a I just get really abit icky about reflective
practice and you know, sort ofterms that get thrown around and
(04:48):
I guess sometimes, evenparticularly in the education
space, we're sort of forced todo like reflective practice.
I remember being reallyfrustrated at having to do that,
but I think that there are anumber of outcomes that can come
from reflective practice and Ithink for me it always felt like
I had to find somethingnegative to fix.
I think that's probably whereit stems from.
(05:09):
Now that I'm talking out loud.
I think reflective practice forme always was like this
admitting of something beingwrong.
And I've reframed thatcompletely now because
reflection can actually be a wayto affirm what we already know
to be true in a positive way,because that negative feedback,
that criticism or that complaintmay be completely wrong.
Speaker 1 (05:34):
And I think, just quickly going back to that
negative, like you said, yourinitial reaction quite often
particularly in a small business, when it's your baby is defense
, like oh, I can't believe, ohmy God would that they'd think
that.
But, like you said, quite oftenthe longer and I think it's
just a muscle that needs to beexercised as well is that the
(05:54):
longer you go through with thisyou go.
Oh, actually, exactly what yousaid.
It's affirmed, what I believe.
I just need to be clearer in it, in what I'm saying on my
website.
Speaker 2 (06:05):
Yeah, and that is maybe the takeaway from that is,
maybe this is the first timeit's come up, maybe you've been
running for a really long timebefore you get some form of
negative feedback and straightaway you go into that defensive
mode and you go actually.
So it affirms what I know aboutmyself and if I go through
everything that I provide, myexpectations are actually clear.
(06:27):
Maybe it was on them.
I'll probably come back to that, or maybe it is exactly that.
How can I deliver my messagebetter to my customers so that
they know what to expect andthey know what we're about and
they know exactly what we do andwhat it looks like?
Speaker 1 (06:48):
Because sometimes the feedback is the staff did
nothing.
Speaker 2 (06:59):
Yeah, how do you explain these intangible things
like when?
Speaker 1 (07:02):
there's a more negative outcome for children
because they're interrupting theplay.
That's a whole positive, awhole.
Another podcast, that one.
Speaker 2 (07:07):
Yeah, so that feedback is important to ensure
that we are on the right track.
Speaker 1 (07:14):
Yeah, well done staff .
Speaker 2 (07:15):
Thank you, you're doing a great job and sometimes
does that negative feeling is areally good place for us to just
check.
And if you come out the otherside after particularly if
you've got someone to talk tothis through with, whether it's
other staff members, whetherit's another someone else who's
at your program if you'rechecking in and finding out from
(07:38):
someone who you do know ishaving a good time or a good
friend, and you come out theother side and you're like I
feel better about when I talkabout it.
I know that that doesn't feellike a true criticism or
something that I need to change.
Speaker 1 (07:52):
I think another good thing to remember is that a
hundred percent of conflictsarise from miscommunication, so
generally it's just somethingthat's been miscommunicated.
Maybe, like you said, yourexpectations haven't been clear,
whether that's in yourenrollment pack or your booking
sheet or your website or yoursocials.
So often the feedback that youreceive is ah, I need to be
(08:15):
clearer about this specificpoint and unfortunately that
takes years as a small business.
If you're starting from scratchwith no help and no templates,
you're making this up as you goand you're only changing it when
you react to the feedback.
Yeah, so you're just going tohave to grow that muscle more
quickly.
Speaker 2 (08:32):
You might actually and oftentimes, when we've
received some sort of feedbackabout something not going right
and it might it's notnecessarily like a negative
feedback.
It'd be like, hey, I had a realtrouble with this booking.
Part of your or your websitedid this and it didn't go where
it was meant to go.
They actually save you.
You're like oh, I hadn'tbrought that to my attention, I
wouldn't have been able to fixit and therefore, now that it's
(08:55):
fixed, my business is better.
Speaker 1 (08:57):
Yeah, and we, whenever we get a complaint,
constructive feedback and areview that's less than for our
team, less than five stars, butfor us, less than you know,
probably three or two stars wewill contact them and the first
thing we do is say thank you,thank you for bringing this to
our attention.
We don't know, particularly nowthat we're not on the ground as
(09:20):
much we don't know unless youtell us.
So this is the other thingplease don't, if you're a
program attendee, please don'tjust ghost if you have a problem
, because it won't get fixed forother people.
So you know, unless it'ssomething just bitchy, it needs
to be constructive feedback,please.
Speaker 2 (09:38):
You don't have to give any airtime to someone
who's nasty.
Speaker 1 (09:41):
No.
Speaker 2 (09:42):
Providing feedback that is unhelpful.
Speaker 1 (09:50):
Yeah, you still need to maintain healthy boundaries
within business.
The customer is not alwaysright in the way that they
communicate, but if you can getto the seed of what it is that
they're actually trying toprovide feedback about generally
, it's only going to help yourbusiness.
Speaker 2 (10:01):
Absolutely so.
When we get to this point here,the most important question
that you need to ask yourself,whether it's at this point or
even beforehand, is knowing inyour heart of heart what value
does my program provide, or mycommunity?
Is it physical, Is it community?
(10:22):
Is it autonomy for children, isit connection with nature?
It doesn't really matter.
What matters is that you knowin your heart of hearts exactly
what value you provide, and thenthe next step with that is
making sure that it is in yourmarketing, your emails, your
socials, your websites.
You clearly talk about thiswherever you can, because
(10:44):
they're intangible things thatpeople will not know unless you
say it out loud.
And another thing that we oftendo in addition to that is to
sometimes sort of narrate whatwe're thinking in programs,
which is really helpful topeople to be able to hear what's
(11:05):
actually going on, what you'reobserving, so that they can see
the intangible things as well.
Speaker 1 (11:10):
Yeah, I think people are often looking for a tangible
exchange for money.
You know, I paid this amount,so I expect this amount of
resources or I expect thisamount of one-on-one time with a
staff member, but so often thebenefits in a nature play
program are invaluable, you know, and they're missing from many
people's day-to-day lives.
So this is our quote unquoteproduct.
(11:32):
This is our actual value and weneed to remind people of that
and, exactly like you said,narrating it, what is it your
child is learning right now,even though there's no staff
member near them?
What is your child learningright now, even though they're
quote unquote just playing inthe mud?
These are the things,especially coming from a school
centric society, that parentsoften need educating in, because
(11:53):
they don't know what learninglooks like outside of a school
system.
Speaker 2 (11:57):
And even saying stuff like I'm really worried.
If I went over there right now,I would interrupt their play, I
would change the dynamic, youknow, saying exactly what your
interference would cause in anegative way, so that they can
see that your role is actuallyassessing at every moment how
much we have to we injectourselves on the children,
(12:19):
because I think a lot of peoplelove the idea of connecting with
the facilitators and that isreally important, but also
knowing that as facilitators andas a philosophy, there is a
really fine line between thosemoments when we're called in and
those moments when we're forcedourselves in and the
interaction still might lookreally good and there's nothing
(12:40):
overtly negative about it, butthere is still an unintended
consequence because we forcedourselves on the children.
So that can be a part of thenarration as well.
Speaker 1 (12:50):
Children don't get many opportunities to get into a
deep flow state and I honestlythink that is one of the biggest
values we provide is the timeand space and the educators that
understand this, to allow themto get into a deep state of flow
.
How do you educate parents onthat messaging?
(13:13):
It's educating in your podcast.
Speaker 2 (13:14):
it's educating on your socials in your reels, yada
yada about flow states.
Yeah, and it might be.
A really good opportunity isafter a session, if something
like that has come up is to justpop your camera on and talk to
the camera and say this is whathappened and this is.
You know why I did or didn't dosomething in my program, and
this can often be misconstrued,or this can be.
This is why it's reallyimportant that I talk about this
(13:34):
, because you may not know thatthat's what's happening from my
perspective as the professionalin this circumstance.
Speaker 1 (13:43):
Another good way to frame things as well is that
just ask yourself whether aperson, if they didn't pay for
your program, would they begetting the benefits and the
value that you know are in yourprogram anywhere else in their
life right now without attendingyour program in the amounts
that they're getting it.
(14:03):
In that you know two or threehour timeframe, and I can tell
you that's exactly why Vicky andI started nature play groups
and Forest Kindy because we knew, unless we made a commitment
every week where we were payingto turn up, it's too easy to go,
it's too wet, it's too cold,it's too hot, I can't be
bothered, my kid's sick to notdo those things.
(14:24):
So, in fact, the fact thatyou're offering a paid service
enables people to actually enjoythose benefits where they quite
often just won't choose to dothem on their own.
Speaker 2 (14:35):
That's right.
And then it just got methinking too about because that
negativity is loud.
It's loud to us.
It's very easy to go down,particularly if you're, like us,
the people pleasing route, andwe have done this and we have
been burned and learned the hardway that if you cater to that
(14:56):
person's feedback in the waythat they expect and it is
outside of your philosophy,other there's other people
suffer.
So the children who areenjoying themselves, who are
having a great time, who allthat feedback coming back to you
is great because that's nothaving as much of an impact.
You and you want so badly toplease someone that you are
likely to do things, providemore resources, you know,
(15:21):
include more things in yourprogram that you don't believe
you actually need but you justwant to make this person happy
has unintended negativeconsequences on the rest of your
program, the rest of the people, the children in your program.
Ultimately they're who you'reserving.
That's why you're in this andyourself to make someone who
isn't necessarily going to stickaround and be happy anyway.
Speaker 1 (15:42):
Yeah, I think we very quickly learned that when we
bent over backwards, that Achildren weren't using them.
This is, in particular, I'mthinking of the feedback like,
oh, you're not providing enoughresources, they weren't using
them.
So when we provided more forparents, the children very
quickly showed us they'd stillrather play in the mud or the
creek with the trees.
And B it was unsustainable forthe environment, which is a huge
(16:04):
part of our mission as acompany.
And C those parents.
Actually, what they wereactually looking for was a very
structured quote unquoteeducational product rather than
process type program, and thatgoes against every one of our
educational philosophies.
And so they inevitably leftanyway, because what they
thought they wanted wasresources, but what they
(16:25):
actually wanted was aschool-based structured program,
and we were never going toprovide that.
So all that trouble to people,please, people that weren't our
ideal customer anyway, whodidn't understand our philosophy
and our mission.
But that feedback then led usto be very clear about what to
expect in our programs, which isfree play in nature.
(16:47):
That's it.
Speaker 2 (16:49):
Absolutely, and I mean like there's always fine
lines and dances between youknow, and even responding to the
feedback of the children in ourprograms, like or maybe they
are a little bit bored, likethey've been coming to us for a
while, like how can we extendthem, and things like that.
Back and forth reflectivepractice my favorite word, um,
that's important and it is.
(17:09):
It is not to say that sometimesthere isn't some element of
truth or we go okay, maybe I doneed to do a little bit of that,
but just being very carefulabout one person's feedback as
opposed to group dynamicfeedback.
Speaker 1 (17:29):
It's very different, too, when a child asks to be
extended essentially and aparent is stepping in on behalf
of that child what they believeis best for their child,
particularly when they're noteducation trained and also
sometimes too, um, if it is justone child, it can be really
draining on um personnelresources that one person is
(17:52):
constantly trying to entertainand falling into that trap as
well.
We are not entertainers, Remindyourself.
We are not here to entertain.
Speaker 2 (18:04):
Yeah, and that word has been Ben.
I don't know how to entertainthem anymore.
It's a trap.
It's a trap.
Speaker 1 (18:10):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (18:11):
So, yeah, being reflective and just coming up
with you know what is thefeeling, what, what do they need
?
And and asking some deeperquestions, as opposed to just
performative, I would say yes,yes.
Speaker 1 (18:27):
And I think finally I just want to bring up that
sometimes genuinely there isabsolutely no ill intent and the
program just is genuinely notfor them and that's okay.
And the sooner we come toaccept that we can't please
everybody and we shouldn'tplease everyone in business,
then the better off our ownmental health will be and our
income.
(18:48):
Because we need to actually beniching down in business and not
only in business.
We need to be niching down innature, play business, because
people are coming to yourprogram for you and what you
offer.
So there's no point in actuallymaking your program similar to
the next person down the road,Because if they find a program
that suits them elsewhere, it'snot an attack on you.
It's just that they've gotdifferent needs that your
(19:09):
program doesn't meet and that'sokay.
And I think maybe that's thehardest thing to accept.
But actually if you can acceptthat really soon and just be
really comfortable with what youoffer and understand people are
going to take it or leave it,the better off you'll be.
Speaker 2 (19:24):
Yeah, it can be really hard to hear negative
things, particularly if you'reanything like me.
You've been raised to be a goodgirl or a boy.
But, honestly, running abusiness is going to guarantee
that you can't please everyone.
So you need to know yourprogram's value and your worth.
Cannot emphasize that enough.
Market that value, particularlyif it's intangible.
(19:48):
It needs to be very clear.
You need to spell it out forpeople and they will.
You will get the people thatwant that.
They will come to you and thenyou'll have less of these,
hopefully, interactions withthat negativity, particularly
for those people that turn upthe first time and have that
feedback.
Speaker 1 (20:07):
And then know again, like we just talked about, that
genuinely your program won't befor some people, and that's okay
.
You can't please everyone.
It's not personal, it'sactually a good thing.
So just be careful not tochange to suit one very loud and
or hurtful voice.
They often won't stay no matterwhat you change anyway.
So stay true to yourself.
Speaker 2 (20:28):
And if you have any questions, please shoot them our
way and, as always, we lovedoing this journey with you, so
until next time stay wild.
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