October 28, 2024 • 35 mins
Have you ever wondered how to foster a deeper connection between children and the natural world? On this episode of Raising Wildlings, we sit down with soon-to-be Dr. Amanda England, an expert in nature play philosophy and pedagogy, currently pursuing her PhD in Australia. Amanda unpacks the essence of Forest School in Australia, highlighting how this approach encourages free play and curiosity-driven learning in outdoor environments, emphasising the importance of play with risk and adventure . You'll discover how children can learn about sustainability, community, and indigenous connections through their interactions with nature.
Amanda's research underscores the value of regular, uninterrupted play in the same natural space, allowing children to witness and engage with seasonal changes. She passionately believes that this continuity fosters a meaningful and sustainable relationship with the natural world. We discuss the need for extended play periods and a holistic approach to education where children learn with, from, and in nature. You'll hear about the significant benefits of viewing humans as an integral part of nature, rather than as separate entities, and how this perspective can transform educational practices.
So grab your boots and join us for an insightful journey into the wild world of Forest Schooling. Stay wild!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
It's entirely likely that if you're tuning into this
podcast, you already know what aforest school is and you may
even attend one with your child,but do you actually know the
philosophy behind forest school?
Today, I'm joined by soon to beDr Amanda England and we're
going to tell you all about it.
Before I start, I'd like toacknowledge the traditional
custodians of the land on whichthis podcast is recorded the
(00:23):
Kabi Kabi and the Gubbi Gubbipeople of the land on which this
podcast is recorded the KabiKabi and the Gubbi Gubbi people.
I'd like to honour theirsonglines and storylines and pay
respects to the elders past,present and those that are
emerging.
I'd also like to acknowledgethe traditional custodians of
the land on which you arelistening to this episode.
Welcome to Raising Wildlings, apodcast about parenting,
alternative education andstepping into the wilderness,
(00:44):
however that looks, with yourfamily.
Speaker 2 (00:47):
Each week, we'll be interviewing experts that truly
inspire us to answer yourparenting and education
questions.
We'll also be sharing storiesfrom some incredible families
that took the leap and aretaking the road less travelled.
Speaker 1 (01:00):
We're your hosts, vicky and Nikki from Wildlings
Forest School.
Pop in your headphones, settlein and join us on this next
adventure.
Hello and welcome to theRaising Wildlings podcast.
I'm your host today, vickiOliver, and I'm so pleased to
have Amanda England joining ustoday.
She's already been on thepodcast before chatting to Nikki
all about starting our Brisbanebranch of Wildlings, so if you
(01:23):
want to go back and check thatout, I would highly recommend.
But today I thought we'd haveAmanda come and join us because
she has been spending hours andhours and hours poring through
all of the literature andlooking at the definitions and
all of the things that have beenwritten about forest school and
I think through all of theconversations and creating
(01:44):
course content, we realized thatwe haven't actually talked
about the forest schoolingphilosophy here on the podcast
and thought we'd rectify that.
So, amanda, welcome to thepodcast.
Thanks for having me.
I can't believe it's taken usthis long to realize that we
haven't talked about this.
So let's start by revisitingyour PhD.
(02:05):
You're currently studying.
You have been doing that forthe past two years.
Why don't you tell us what itis that you're currently
studying?
What's your PhD about.
Speaker 2 (02:15):
So my PhD is on nature play, philosophy and
pedagogy, specifically inAustralia.
It's a very under-researchedarea in Australia.
Uh, well, we know what forestschool slash nature play is
around the world.
Um, in Australia it's such anew field as we know.
You know, we're on theforefront doing it at Wildlings,
um, so we don't know much aboutit.
(02:36):
So that's what I'm specificallystudying and so then, forest
schooling.
Speaker 1 (02:43):
To a lot of people like I often think, what is it
if I'm a person who loves theidea of forest school just
because of the name?
What do you think people thinkforest school is?
Speaker 2 (02:56):
Well, I think they think it's a school yeah,
because of the word forestschool.
So we get a lot of phone callsoh, we'd love to come to your
school.
And we have to say, well,actually it's not a school like,
we just run sessions and thewhole point of what we do is
taking kids outside to play andjust let them playing in the
forest, in nature and whatevernature space we can basically
(03:18):
find.
I personally love nature spaceswith pricks, but it's just
about letting them play andfollowing their lead and going
along with the little thingsthey come up with.
You know, we've had kids stickout I think I spoke about in the
last podcast stick a bucket ontheir head and go under the
water and they were doing allthe science behind it and
realizing that there's no waterin the bucket and there's only
air.
So it's a lot about followingalong with those things and then
(03:40):
thinking, well, what's next,what else could we do next?
And going along with all of thekids wants and needs.
It's about doing what thatcould be considered quite
adventurous, perhaps risky play,but it's about following along
with those things and justallowing kids to engage in
nature the way that they wouldlike to engage in nature and do
it in a safe way, whilstteaching them about the risks
(04:01):
and the benefits of being innature, teaching them about the
flora and fauna around them, andthrough all that sort of stuff
we start to embed sustainabilityand community connections and
indigenous connections andreally it's just about finding,
I think finding yourself innature.
Speaker 1 (04:19):
Yeah, it's a very holistic philosophy and I think
we'll go through each of thosethings that you mentioned and
maybe talk about them in alittle bit more detail.
Sometimes, I think, depending onthe type of person you're
talking about, some people justlove the idea of connecting with
people outside and that can bethe start of their journey, and
(04:39):
then, obviously, engaging witheducators and facilitators,
understanding that there is alot more behind it than just
being outside.
And then I think there's like agroup of people that sort of
think that we just take what welearn inside and just replicate
that outside, which is not whatforest schooling is about too.
So we become part of this likesticky situation when we're
(05:01):
sometimes working with educators.
Is that sometimes the startingpoint like how do we get
approval to be outside?
So it's like this middle groundof trying to fit a curriculum
and very structured activitiesoutside and then trying to undo
this idea that we need to bedoing learning to children and
(05:22):
allowing them to experiment inthe space.
So there are a number of thingsthat I guess encapsulate the
philosophy and we're going to gothrough the principles that
really underpin how we embed itin a program and I think one of
the first things that we thinkis really important is the fact
(05:44):
that it's regular andinterrupted right.
Why do you think that's soimportant?
Speaker 2 (05:48):
well, that's basically, if you had to
summarize it into one sentencedefinition, it's play-based and
child-directed, occurringecological spaces for regular
and uninterrupted periods oftime.
Um, well, I think that that isso important.
That regular, because if you'renot regularly connecting with
nature you can't form aconnection with it.
It's all about place-basedconnections and place responsive
(06:10):
connections you can't.
Place-based connections are allabout forming, you know, a love
for it and a passion for it anda joy for it, so that
eventually you're going to wantto, you're going to want to look
after that for the rest of yourlife, um, and then you can't
form those without regularlybeing in that space.
So we think it's reallyimportant to stay in the same
space over and over again sothat kids can form that
(06:32):
connection with it and can alsosee the changes that are
happening with it, with theseasons and the weather.
They can see the erosion of thehills, they can see the grass
growing, they can see the creekas it goes up and down, and then
it's sometimes not there at allbecause we haven't had much
rain, and I guess they makethose connections.
And then the uninterrupted partwell, I think any teacher could
speak to that.
(06:52):
If you allow children an hour,they're going to find things to
do within that hour.
But if you allow them threehours and you just let them go
for it, they're going to keepbuilding upon what they were
doing within that first hour.
You just let them go for itthey're going to keep building
upon what they were doing withinthat first hour and the minute
that you interrupt them, thatplay is gone, and any teacher
can tell you that I'm a big fanof just letting children go for
as long as they need to go,because that allows them that
(07:15):
space to just really build upontheir play.
Speaker 1 (07:19):
I 100% agree, and I think also even just in programs
where we only run them for twohours.
It's really fascinating towatch how long sometimes it
takes children to sink into playas well, especially if it's not
every day, so like if you'vegot children who are immersed in
nature every day or inplay-based scenarios around
(07:41):
other children, they can findthat rhythm a lot quicker.
What I found, particularly withplay group because it was only
a two-hour session, it reallytook them almost an hour and a
half to sink into, feelingcomfortable and playing, and
then they would only then reallyget half an hour of being in
that space and we're like, oh,the session's finished, which
(08:03):
often after a while I guess westopped, we just kept going, and
playgroup wasn't a two-hoursession.
It often still continues to notbe a two-hour session because
they are so immersed in thatplay and it takes them a little
while to get there, which is whyI think that it needs to be a
certain amount of time as well,because sometimes it isn't just
an instant sinking in as soon asyou get down to the forest.
(08:26):
Sometimes children do need alittle bit more time to find
their feet and what they want toexplore.
All right now.
The second part of thephilosophy is that it takes
place in an outdoor nature space.
Now we like we've alreadytalked about this because this
comes hands in hand.
In hand um, we're trying tosupport the relationship between
humans and nature, but I thinkthis is a Now we've already
talked about this, because thiscomes hand in hand we're trying
(08:48):
to support the relationshipbetween humans and nature, but I
think this is a really corepart of it.
It almost seems like a minorthing, like linguistic thing,
but I think a lot of the time,we feel like humans are separate
from nature, whereas forestschooling actually allows us to
see ourselves as part of it, andI know you have thought about
this a lot as well.
Speaker 2 (09:09):
Oh my gosh.
So there's some really bigterminology that comes along
with this in the PhD world, suchas common worlds, post-humanism
and new materialism.
Those all kind of fit under.
Common worlds is like the bigumbrella term and the others fit
under it, and it's all justabout learning to be with nature
and not just learn about naturebut learn with it, from it, in
(09:32):
it around it, like realizingthat humans and nature aren't
divided.
So it's moving away from.
We've had this thing for areally long time where we look
at children playing in natureand we just get so excited and
we're like, oh, they're playingin nature and we really
romanticise them just playing innature and just being in nature
, rather than actually taking itthat one step further, which is
(09:53):
this era that we're moving intonow, with all of the
sustainability stuff that isbecoming more and more of a
priority.
We were moving into this erawhere children are starting to
learn about and from and withnature.
So I guess that idea ofchildren learning from with
nature would be along the linesof the weather stuff that I was
talking about before.
If children are out in natureall the time, they're going to
(10:16):
notice the weather patterns,they're going to notice what's
happening to the creeks, they'regoing to notice the tree that's
just been chopped down andthey're going to start thinking
about those things and what youknow, learning about them,
rather than just sitting in aclassroom and learning about the
sun and the heat and whathappens when water evaporates
they're actually seeing waterevaporate in real time.
(10:36):
So I guess it's, yeah, takingaway that divide between humans
and nature and putting them moreon an equal footing and
thinking about not just what wecan do for nature but, I guess,
what nature does for us, andthat there is a oh.
I guess, yeah, that they'rethey're equals.
It's a really like hard conceptto explain and I've had a lot
(10:57):
of I'm still learning about this.
I'm not finished my PhD yet,it's still something that I
grapple with, but, yeah, I guessit's really about seeing us as
equals and that you know, when atree falls down, it's not just
about taking away that tree.
It's about thinking aboutwhat's what that tree can now be
used for and realizing thatanimals are now going to inhabit
(11:18):
that tree and that's now goingto become a beehive or an ant
farm or things like that,because nature is perfectly
capable of, I guess, taking careof itself.
Speaker 1 (11:27):
Yeah, that's right.
And then you know humans tend tocome in and alter things very
quickly, and understanding howwe balance that out and, yeah,
and for me a lot of the time Ikeep thinking about, if children
have this foundationalunderstanding of nature and its
seasons, fluctuations, it willbe part of their consciousness
(11:51):
when they're decision-making asadults, so when they're in
positions of power to makedecisions about how spaces are
used, how communities cometogether, whether or not sites
are bulldozed and repurposed andall of those things that are
really, really important from anenvironmental perspective.
If they've got a core,foundational understanding and a
connection with those spaces,maybe they'll think twice about
(12:14):
the money, which is often thereason why we do these things
and our long-term ability tothrive as a species and all the
other species together, like yousay, because we're all equal
and it's not just about humansputting themselves above
everything else.
So that's why being in anoutdoor nature space is really
critical to the philosophy.
Now you mentioned weather interms of being outside and being
(12:37):
able to adapt and understandthose fluctuations, but that's
also part of the philosophy interms of being outside and being
able to adapt and understandthose fluctuations, but that's
also part of the philosophy interms of the fact that we go out
in all weather, yep, so how doyou see being out in all
different weather beingimportant?
Speaker 2 (12:54):
Well, just like I said, they've got to be out in
all weather to develop anappreciation for that weather.
I think one of the core partsabout being out in all weather
is helping children developresilience and helping them be
comfortable in all differenttypes of weather.
So rain, thunderstorms, hail,sunshine, extreme heats, we're
out there, it doesn't matter.
(13:14):
We definitely have policiesthat mean that we're not going
to be out there if it's going tohurt the child.
But as far as we're concerned,children can't develop that
ability to regulate themselvesand get past things if we never
allow them to do so.
So if we never allow them to gooutside and play in the rain,
how are they going to know whenthe rain is so hard that they
(13:35):
should not be playing outside init?
You know, I guess we just tryto think about things like that,
and you know things like thedifferent clothes that they wear
and how they need to put on araincoat.
So I was in Denmark last yearand it was amazing.
It literally had just startedpitter-pattering and half of the
kids just ran straight insideand put on raincoats.
There were no.
I was at a forest school inDenmark, I should say there were
(13:57):
no teachers that said anythingto them about the rain.
The other half played outsidein the rain and they were
absolutely fine with it.
The teachers didn't sayanything, the kids just
instinctively knew what to do.
So kids can't instinctively knowwhat to do.
If we never give them theopportunity, if we tell them to
go out and put on a raincoatstraight away, they're never
going to learn that the rainmakes their skin wet and they're
(14:17):
never going to learn that, oh,they're going to get really cold
and it's not going to be a verynice feeling.
You know, I was at a sessionabout a year ago and the kids
were playing in the water andthey were getting absolutely
soaked.
And right before they did that,they said can we go in the
water?
And the educator said to themyou can go in the water, but
this is what's going to happenand remember you didn't like it
last time and they're like wedon't care.
(14:39):
So they went in the water anywayand you know that built
something more inside them andmaybe next time they'll realize
that actually they did care.
Afterwards they went and driedall their clothes and hung them
up to dry.
So they obviously had a planand they knew that was going to
happen.
So they weren't worried aboutplaying in the water.
But the point there was thatthe educator didn't stop them
from doing it.
She just allowed them to goahead with it so they could
(15:01):
learn for themselves, becausethere's no point in us just
knowing.
Speaker 1 (15:04):
The kids have to know that's right and that's a huge
part of our role andresponsibility is not telling
them what to do, but it can beas simple as a reminder of hey,
last time, remember how we had areally uncomfortable time
afterwards, and exactly that.
Then the children can formulatea plan or change their plan and
(15:25):
they're like oh yeah, that didmake me uncomfortable and I
don't want to do that again, orno, I really enjoyed myself.
How do I avoid the second part,which was the discomfort that I
felt?
And that's a really importantpart of it, and I think what
makes me so sort of passionateabout this part of the
philosophy is when I look aroundat how many people will cancel
(15:47):
plans because of a little bit ofrain or an overcast day or
extreme heat or any of thosethings, when I've been forced to
go out in them because of ourprograms and had the best time.
So we're actively missing out onopportunities to experience
connection and you know thosethings that deeply fill our cups
(16:11):
because that discomfort ofmaybe sitting in the rain or
having to take a few extra stepsto keep ourselves comfortable
and oftentimes it's not eventhat bad too Like I can't
believe how many people will optout of even coming to forest
school when they first startcoming, because it might be
slightly wet and there's otherreasons why people don't want to
be on the roads and stuff likethat, which is fair enough, but
(16:34):
especially when you've gone andseen like the extremes of being
in the real cold, and I thinkthat's the really fascinating
part of all weather.
Um, place based in Australia,for us it's more extreme heat,
like how do we stay out in thisextreme heat, as opposed to
children playing out in the snow, which is what happens in other
countries, which I find reallyfascinating that you know that
(16:58):
doesn't even seem to be aconsideration for them and yet,
um, it's still a very heavyconversation in terms of the
barriers that sometimes peoplehave and get.
Speaker 2 (17:08):
Well, we just lock ourselves in this extreme heat,
right, we just lock ourselves inwith air conditioning.
You know, my girls and I'vebeen down to the creek.
We just got home last week froman overseas trip and we've been
down at our local creek everyday since we got home just to
sit in the cold water, becausewe'd much rather do that than go
and pay for, say, the pool.
But there's nobody else downthere and it's just.
I'm like this is a great space.
(17:29):
You could swim in it, you canplay in it, it's clean, there's
guppies in it, there's big fishswimming everywhere, like
there's nothing wrong with thisspace and nobody's in it.
Speaker 1 (17:37):
And we get all these odd looks whenever they see us
in it and I'd like to and it'sso funny because sometimes I'm
like, oh, do I really wantpeople to know about all my
secret spots?
But, um, ultimately that'swhat's going to make our society
really.
You know, help with mentalhealth, help with physical
health, help with, you know,connection and all of the, all
(17:58):
of the benefits that come frombeing outside.
Speaker 2 (18:01):
Well, Vicky, we've shared those spots, that spot
that we're at, we've shared thatwith our followers.
Speaker 1 (18:06):
Yeah, and we've done this.
I know there's so many peoplethat have been like you know
what One of the greatest thingsabout coming to your program is?
I've learned more about theplace that we live.
I didn't know this was here,and now this is going to be
somewhere that will becomememories for us and our family
when we spend more time here,which I think is a really great
(18:28):
thing.
And, yeah, I'd love to see morepeople.
I mean, it's frustrating.
Obviously more people areoutside and it becomes busier,
but maybe then we'll pay moreattention to how we preserve
these nature spaces if morepeople are craving them.
Speaker 2 (18:45):
I was also just thinking confidence.
They build confidence, right.
Our parents build confidence bybeing in those spaces in all
weather, and the kids buildconfidence because they may have
been scared to go down to thelocal creek before meeting us
and coming and spending time inour spaces and going.
Oh well, this isn't scary, Ican do this.
Speaker 1 (19:02):
Absolutely, I think you're exactly right it does.
It's really empowering for somepeople as well, particularly if
it's really out of theircomfort zone.
So that's really important aswell.
One of the big things when itcomes to forest school is the
risky play or adventurous playopportunities.
Things comes to forest schoolis the risky play or adventurous
(19:23):
play opportunities.
So I think that you know youcan have a really fantastic
program that doesn't do all ofthe adventurous things that you
can do, but the fact that you'rein nature means that there is
going to be riskier things.
Just, nature in itself isinherently riskier than a
concrete jungle in differentways, because I think there's
(19:45):
always risk in some way, likeeven a, even a playground
falling off monkey, like there'srisk everywhere, right, but I
think that nature presentsdifferent risky experiences and
we can add to those withdifferent things that we bring
as well.
So, um, what kinds of thingshave you seen, uh, and that
really excite you about allowingchildren to engage in more
(20:06):
risky activities?
Speaker 2 (20:08):
um, what have I seen children do?
Gosh, climb, um, climbdifferent rock faces.
So at one of our favoriteplaces down here jc sort of
falls there's a massive rockface and, um, we just love
letting the children climb it.
Children will only go as highas they instinct, as they feel
like they can.
I've got this favorite thingwhere I just try to talk.
I try to talk our parentsthrough it, because that can be
(20:29):
really scary, like watching yourchildren climb.
I can handle watching itbecause I know that they're
going to be okay, but theparents can get really nervous
about that.
So I try to talk to them aboutdifferent ways that they can
talk to their child.
Tree climbing Gosh, theyabsolutely love tree climbing.
We don't currently do that inour programs due to insurance,
but children absolutely lovetree climbing.
(20:50):
So children will findaffordances in any way, shape or
form in nature, and what I meanby affordances is if a child
sees a tree stump, they mightwant to jump off.
It might mean just want to siton it and pretend it's a throne.
Like an affordance is a childgiving, I guess, a action to
something that it wasn'tintended for.
Like you see, a hill that's notintended for just running up,
(21:13):
rolling down it, climbing up it.
It's a hill right, but a childhas given it that a tree isn't
intended for climbing, but achild has decided they're going
to go and climb that tree.
Um, you know, we put we've putswings in trees before in the
past, things like that.
Speaker 1 (21:28):
Um, oh gosh, there are so many things yeah, there's
levels of risk there and andthere is risk, as you say, in
affordances in nature, and thenthere's sometimes we will give
them something to take that tothe next level.
So we might bring in tools, wemight have a campfire where
we're, you know, looking atcooking and art and all of those
(21:48):
sorts of and just connectingand storytelling around fires.
So there's lots of differentways in which forest school in
itself it's not about just therisky play.
It's about the fact thatchildren will then learn how to
manage risk long-term as well,like they are able to actually
have the skill set to be able torecognise whether something is
(22:13):
safe or not, or whether or notthey're capable of handling that
activity, which is a reallyimportant part of that.
I know that with there's beencurriculum changes in Australia
and it's quite difficult toprovide those opportunities for
children inside.
So if you actually wantchildren to be able to build
that skill set, you actuallyneed to let them do things that
(22:37):
may have an outcome that is anegative one, and the idea is
that they don't have thatnegative consequence because
they're actually learning how toavoid that in the first place
by implementing their owncontrol measures, because that's
what we do on a risk assessment.
Right, we're looking at thecontrol measures to reduce the
(22:58):
risk level.
Well, children will come up withtheir own control measures,
like you say, like they willself-handicap if they feel like
they can't get up to wherethey're going to go.
They won't go that high becausethey can see that the risk of
them falling, hurting themselves, getting stuck, whatever it is,
is a lot higher.
So they won't go that highbecause they can see that the
risk of them falling, hurtingthemselves, getting stuck,
whatever it is, is a lot higher.
So they won't go that high.
They go to wherever you knowit's a little bit out of their
(23:18):
comfort zone, but they'recomfortable and they can get
back down or all of those sortsof things, which is really
important as well.
One of the other parts of theforest schooling philosophy is
giving children autonomy intheir play and learning Now
coming.
So you've worked inkindergartens and schools before
, amanda.
(23:39):
How much autonomy are childrengiven day to day?
Speaker 2 (23:43):
Children are told what to do, when to do it and
how to do it.
For example, my daughter is offto high school next year and
she had to make a video for herhigh school saying you know why
she was so excited to go to thishigh school?
And she literally said youwon't tell me what to do, how to
do it and when to do it.
So and her primary schooldoesn't do that whatsoever.
(24:04):
But she knows that in amainstream high school that's
what would happen.
It's the same thing in primaryschool.
So we're not actually allowingchildren to make their own
choices.
We're making their choices forthem.
You know, playing outside inthe raincoat.
We're telling them to go andput on a raincoat and put on
their gumboots.
We're not allowing them toexperience them for themselves
so then they can learn what theyneed to do to make sure that
(24:27):
things don't happen in thefuture.
Something that came out of myresearch recently was that we're
not allowing children you knowexactly what you're saying with
the risky play before.
This is quite like a extremeview, but one of the people was
saying that basically, childrenare going to be in car crashes.
They're going to not know theirlimits when it comes to being
18 and starting to drink andpotentially drive, because we've
(24:51):
actually never, ever let themdo that in childhood.
So if we're not allowingchildren autonomy and risk go
hand in hand, right.
If we're not allowing childrento make their own choices, then
they're going to take riskslater on.
Um, and letting children maketheir own choices is so simple
like there are some easy thingsthat you can do straight away.
To embed that, I always thinkrolling morning teas.
That's like my favoritecatchphrase.
(25:12):
If you just let children choosewhen they want to eat, they
will eat when they're hungry.
They may not actually be hungryuntil one o'clock in the
afternoon, and that's okay,because no child will starve
themselves.
Speaker 1 (25:22):
They are not at all when they're three and four.
Speaker 2 (25:25):
They're not thinking, they're just playing.
They might need you know.
You could remind them, youcould say are you going to eat,
like, are you ready to eat?
But just leave them, they'llcome to it.
When they're ready they will goand eat.
We see that at our sessions.
They eat more.
We always tell parents to bringan extra lunchbox because their
kids eat more.
Yeah, that's right.
Yeah, so I guess allowingchildren to make their own
(25:47):
choices and nature is theperfect place to allow children
to make their own choices,because there is, per se,
nothing there.
We haven't set up a hairdressercorner.
So in a kindergarten you've got, you know, a home corner, and
home corner can, you know, beattributed towards girls because
you've put hairdresser stuff inthere and doll stuff in there
and we definitely have boysplaying in there, but in my
(26:09):
experience, predominantly girlsplaying in there, whereas
outside they make their own homecorner, you know.
They go and set up their owncubby house and a bunch of trees
and they put a bunch of sticksout and everybody's playing in
that home corner, because ithasn't been pre-designed by a
teacher for a child to go andplay in.
It's been designed by childrenfor them to play in.
(26:29):
So they've made their completeown choice about how that's
going to look and what's goingto be in it and what they're
going to play and how they'regoing to play that in there.
So I guess it's really importantfor children to make their own
choices and I think, naturebeing this completely blank
space, we're not bringinganything out for them.
Sometimes, you know, we bringalong helpful things like rope
(26:50):
or a mud kitchen, but we're nottelling them what to do with
that.
They're going to do it bythemselves and that can be
really hard for a lot of people.
It can be really hard for kids,especially if they're used to
being told what to do.
So, just like we were talkingabout earlier, kids may need two
hours to settle into a sessionbecause they're not used to
coming to a session wherethey're not told what to do and
(27:10):
how to do it.
At the start of every session,we're like right, this is what's
available, you go and do it.
You go and do whatever you'dlike to do.
You know it may be.
And now the school holidayswe've got, say, bows and arrows
theme session.
I've seen kids who have notmade a bow and arrow at all and
they've been spent two hoursdigging a trench because they
wanted to dig a trench and thenthey played army games in that
(27:32):
trench and they had the besttime ever.
Was there an outcome attributedto that?
No, but were there a?
There were a hundred outcomesthat came out of that, but the
outcome that they specificallycame for they didn't get.
But they learned to play, theylearned to socialize, they
learned about depth, theyscience math, I mean, there were
so many concepts in that thatcould not have been pre-designed
(27:56):
by a teacher and they made allof their own choices.
That was completely autonomous.
Speaker 1 (28:01):
So I guess there's that link too, of we can create
and design activities andopportunities to teach a concept
.
It doesn't mean that thatactivity will be absorbed by the
child and they won't actuallylearn about it, or they could be
in it in the moment, but theydon't retain it.
If they come to that conclusionon their own, through their
(28:23):
play, it is more likely thatthey will take that concept,
internalize it and learn from iton their own, as opposed to
having a step-by-step lessonpresented to them by a teacher.
So I think that there is alittle bit of a switch that
needs to be made for educatorsto realize how powerful autonomy
(28:44):
can be in learning.
That's completely different tostructured activities that we
typically do because that's howwe see our role.
So it's a whole role shift aswell for facilitators, which
brings me to the last part ofthe philosophy, which is that it
is a holistic Well, I thinkwe've realized that, haven't we
(29:07):
Every time?
Speaker 2 (29:07):
you say something I reconnected to something that
was already there.
Every time you say something, Ireconnected to something that
was already there, that's right.
Yeah, I think with.
One of my biggest things isthat it's a philosophy.
I think that if you're doing itjust as an activity, where you
go out and you do forest schoolfor an hour a week and you've
done you know, quote marksforest school, that's not forest
(29:28):
school.
Forest school, just like yousaid, is a holistic thing that
you can take through everything.
It can be embedded everywhere.
You don't have to be outside todo it.
It's great to be outside innature, and I advocate for kids
being predominantly in nature,but it can also be something
that's done inside, simply byallowing children to make their
choices, having a blank space inyour classroom, allowing them
(29:51):
to take risks.
There are risks that you cantake inside.
I mean gosh, in some places, insome kindergartens, using a
pair of scissors can be deemed arisk.
Using a hot glue gun, like Ialways have a glue gun in my
kindergarten room, the parentsused to freak out.
We definitely had kids who gothot glue on their fingers.
They did not do it again.
They learned very quickly whatthe outcome of not using the hot
(30:11):
glue gun properly was.
Um, so there are definitely waysthat you can actually insert
risk inside and outside.
But you know, allowing childrento make their own choices, that
autonomy, all of those things.
So the forest school philosophycan be done on a whole anywhere
that you are.
But I definitely would advocate, you know, when we have our own
(30:32):
child care center, the kidswill be allowed to be outside as
much as they want to be.
But there are kids who actuallydon't love being outside.
We still get them to comeoutside of this, because how can
you learn to love it if you'renever in it?
But they will have that choicebetween indoor and outdoors.
If they want to be indoors forsome of their day, that's
perfectly fine as well, becauseI can implement that holistic
(30:52):
forest school philosophy nomatter where we are.
Speaker 1 (30:55):
And I guess, too, that's about helping children to
be safe as well.
When you're giving them thatautonomy, you're respecting
their need to stay safe, and forsome children it may take them
a while to feel safe outside.
And, as you're saying, that isabout a relationships too, about
forming those relationshipswith children and and listening
(31:16):
deeply listening to what theirneeds are in that moment, and
that doesn't mean that we can'textend them.
But that feeling of safety isreally important for children as
well, part of that holisticdevelopment well and look some
kids.
Speaker 2 (31:27):
You know, like you said, some kids have never been
outside.
I mean, we've got this wholeround of covid babies coming
through now, coming throughpreschools, that have never been
outside.
And you've been in theseindividual like inside their
homes, because we got told notto go outside, goodness knows
why, because you pretty much hada zero percent chance of
catching it when you're outside.
But we were told not to gooutside, we were told to stay
(31:49):
inside our homes and lockourselves away.
So there are kids that havenever touched it and have never
played in a creek and you knowthose.
Speaker 1 (31:56):
Yeah, we definitely need to be out there doing it
exactly well, I really hope thatpeople have gotten a little bit
more of an idea of the factthat forest schooling and I
guess that's why we kept thename and that's why we pursue
this, because all of thesethings are so important to embed
in in our programs and webelieve in them in terms of
(32:21):
allowing like all of theseelements are so important in
child development, which is whywe resonate so much with this
philosophy and from that, amandaand I are going to have a
little chat in the next episodeabout the word forest school and
the different names that havecome up and some of the heated
discussions around theterminology in our very next
(32:44):
episode.
So thank you, amanda, forcoming and chatting all things
about the forest schoolingphilosophy and, as always, guys,
we love doing this journey withyou.
Stay wild.
Thanks for having me.
It's entirely likely that if you're tuning into this
podcast, you already know what aforest school is and you may
even attend one with your child,but do you actually know the
philosophy behind forest school?
Today, I'm joined by soon to beDr Amanda England and we're
going to tell you all about it.
Before I start, I'd like toacknowledge the traditional
custodians of the land on whichthis podcast is recorded the
(00:23):
Kabi Kabi and the Gubbi Gubbipeople of the land on which this
podcast is recorded the KabiKabi and the Gubbi Gubbi people.
I'd like to honour theirsonglines and storylines and pay
respects to the elders past,present and those that are
emerging.
I'd also like to acknowledgethe traditional custodians of
the land on which you arelistening to this episode.
Welcome to Raising Wildlings, apodcast about parenting,
alternative education andstepping into the wilderness,
(00:44):
however that looks, with yourfamily.
Speaker 2 (00:47):
Each week, we'll be interviewing experts that truly
inspire us to answer yourparenting and education
questions.
We'll also be sharing storiesfrom some incredible families
that took the leap and aretaking the road less travelled.
Speaker 1 (01:00):
We're your hosts, vicky and Nikki from Wildlings
Forest School.
Pop in your headphones, settlein and join us on this next
adventure.
Hello and welcome to theRaising Wildlings podcast.
I'm your host today, vickiOliver, and I'm so pleased to
have Amanda England joining ustoday.
She's already been on thepodcast before chatting to Nikki
all about starting our Brisbanebranch of Wildlings, so if you
(01:23):
want to go back and check thatout, I would highly recommend.
But today I thought we'd haveAmanda come and join us because
she has been spending hours andhours and hours poring through
all of the literature andlooking at the definitions and
all of the things that have beenwritten about forest school and
I think through all of theconversations and creating
(01:44):
course content, we realized thatwe haven't actually talked
about the forest schoolingphilosophy here on the podcast
and thought we'd rectify that.
So, amanda, welcome to thepodcast.
Thanks for having me.
I can't believe it's taken usthis long to realize that we
haven't talked about this.
So let's start by revisitingyour PhD.
(02:05):
You're currently studying.
You have been doing that forthe past two years.
Why don't you tell us what itis that you're currently
studying?
What's your PhD about.
Speaker 2 (02:15):
So my PhD is on nature play, philosophy and
pedagogy, specifically inAustralia.
It's a very under-researchedarea in Australia.
Uh, well, we know what forestschool slash nature play is
around the world.
Um, in Australia it's such anew field as we know.
You know, we're on theforefront doing it at Wildlings,
um, so we don't know much aboutit.
(02:36):
So that's what I'm specificallystudying and so then, forest
schooling.
Speaker 1 (02:43):
To a lot of people like I often think, what is it
if I'm a person who loves theidea of forest school just
because of the name?
What do you think people thinkforest school is?
Speaker 2 (02:56):
Well, I think they think it's a school yeah,
because of the word forestschool.
So we get a lot of phone callsoh, we'd love to come to your
school.
And we have to say, well,actually it's not a school like,
we just run sessions and thewhole point of what we do is
taking kids outside to play andjust let them playing in the
forest, in nature and whatevernature space we can basically
(03:18):
find.
I personally love nature spaceswith pricks, but it's just
about letting them play andfollowing their lead and going
along with the little thingsthey come up with.
You know, we've had kids stickout I think I spoke about in the
last podcast stick a bucket ontheir head and go under the
water and they were doing allthe science behind it and
realizing that there's no waterin the bucket and there's only
air.
So it's a lot about followingalong with those things and then
(03:40):
thinking, well, what's next,what else could we do next?
And going along with all of thekids wants and needs.
It's about doing what thatcould be considered quite
adventurous, perhaps risky play,but it's about following along
with those things and justallowing kids to engage in
nature the way that they wouldlike to engage in nature and do
it in a safe way, whilstteaching them about the risks
(04:01):
and the benefits of being innature, teaching them about the
flora and fauna around them, andthrough all that sort of stuff
we start to embed sustainabilityand community connections and
indigenous connections andreally it's just about finding,
I think finding yourself innature.
Speaker 1 (04:19):
Yeah, it's a very holistic philosophy and I think
we'll go through each of thosethings that you mentioned and
maybe talk about them in alittle bit more detail.
Sometimes, I think, depending onthe type of person you're
talking about, some people justlove the idea of connecting with
people outside and that can bethe start of their journey, and
(04:39):
then, obviously, engaging witheducators and facilitators,
understanding that there is alot more behind it than just
being outside.
And then I think there's like agroup of people that sort of
think that we just take what welearn inside and just replicate
that outside, which is not whatforest schooling is about too.
So we become part of this likesticky situation when we're
(05:01):
sometimes working with educators.
Is that sometimes the startingpoint like how do we get
approval to be outside?
So it's like this middle groundof trying to fit a curriculum
and very structured activitiesoutside and then trying to undo
this idea that we need to bedoing learning to children and
(05:22):
allowing them to experiment inthe space.
So there are a number of thingsthat I guess encapsulate the
philosophy and we're going to gothrough the principles that
really underpin how we embed itin a program and I think one of
the first things that we thinkis really important is the fact
(05:44):
that it's regular andinterrupted right.
Why do you think that's soimportant?
Speaker 2 (05:48):
well, that's basically, if you had to
summarize it into one sentencedefinition, it's play-based and
child-directed, occurringecological spaces for regular
and uninterrupted periods oftime.
Um, well, I think that that isso important.
That regular, because if you'renot regularly connecting with
nature you can't form aconnection with it.
It's all about place-basedconnections and place responsive
(06:10):
connections you can't.
Place-based connections are allabout forming, you know, a love
for it and a passion for it anda joy for it, so that
eventually you're going to wantto, you're going to want to look
after that for the rest of yourlife, um, and then you can't
form those without regularlybeing in that space.
So we think it's reallyimportant to stay in the same
space over and over again sothat kids can form that
(06:32):
connection with it and can alsosee the changes that are
happening with it, with theseasons and the weather.
They can see the erosion of thehills, they can see the grass
growing, they can see the creekas it goes up and down, and then
it's sometimes not there at allbecause we haven't had much
rain, and I guess they makethose connections.
And then the uninterrupted partwell, I think any teacher could
speak to that.
(06:52):
If you allow children an hour,they're going to find things to
do within that hour.
But if you allow them threehours and you just let them go
for it, they're going to keepbuilding upon what they were
doing within that first hour.
You just let them go for itthey're going to keep building
upon what they were doing withinthat first hour and the minute
that you interrupt them, thatplay is gone, and any teacher
can tell you that I'm a big fanof just letting children go for
as long as they need to go,because that allows them that
(07:15):
space to just really build upontheir play.
Speaker 1 (07:19):
I 100% agree, and I think also even just in programs
where we only run them for twohours.
It's really fascinating towatch how long sometimes it
takes children to sink into playas well, especially if it's not
every day, so like if you'vegot children who are immersed in
nature every day or inplay-based scenarios around
(07:41):
other children, they can findthat rhythm a lot quicker.
What I found, particularly withplay group because it was only
a two-hour session, it reallytook them almost an hour and a
half to sink into, feelingcomfortable and playing, and
then they would only then reallyget half an hour of being in
that space and we're like, oh,the session's finished, which
(08:03):
often after a while I guess westopped, we just kept going, and
playgroup wasn't a two-hoursession.
It often still continues to notbe a two-hour session because
they are so immersed in thatplay and it takes them a little
while to get there, which is whyI think that it needs to be a
certain amount of time as well,because sometimes it isn't just
an instant sinking in as soon asyou get down to the forest.
(08:26):
Sometimes children do need alittle bit more time to find
their feet and what they want toexplore.
All right now.
The second part of thephilosophy is that it takes
place in an outdoor nature space.
Now we like we've alreadytalked about this because this
comes hands in hand.
In hand um, we're trying tosupport the relationship between
humans and nature, but I thinkthis is a Now we've already
talked about this, because thiscomes hand in hand we're trying
(08:48):
to support the relationshipbetween humans and nature, but I
think this is a really corepart of it.
It almost seems like a minorthing, like linguistic thing,
but I think a lot of the time,we feel like humans are separate
from nature, whereas forestschooling actually allows us to
see ourselves as part of it, andI know you have thought about
this a lot as well.
Speaker 2 (09:09):
Oh my gosh.
So there's some really bigterminology that comes along
with this in the PhD world, suchas common worlds, post-humanism
and new materialism.
Those all kind of fit under.
Common worlds is like the bigumbrella term and the others fit
under it, and it's all justabout learning to be with nature
and not just learn about naturebut learn with it, from it, in
(09:32):
it around it, like realizingthat humans and nature aren't
divided.
So it's moving away from.
We've had this thing for areally long time where we look
at children playing in natureand we just get so excited and
we're like, oh, they're playingin nature and we really
romanticise them just playing innature and just being in nature
, rather than actually taking itthat one step further, which is
(09:53):
this era that we're moving intonow, with all of the
sustainability stuff that isbecoming more and more of a
priority.
We were moving into this erawhere children are starting to
learn about and from and withnature.
So I guess that idea ofchildren learning from with
nature would be along the linesof the weather stuff that I was
talking about before.
If children are out in natureall the time, they're going to
(10:16):
notice the weather patterns,they're going to notice what's
happening to the creeks, they'regoing to notice the tree that's
just been chopped down andthey're going to start thinking
about those things and what youknow, learning about them,
rather than just sitting in aclassroom and learning about the
sun and the heat and whathappens when water evaporates
they're actually seeing waterevaporate in real time.
(10:36):
So I guess it's, yeah, takingaway that divide between humans
and nature and putting them moreon an equal footing and
thinking about not just what wecan do for nature but, I guess,
what nature does for us, andthat there is a oh.
I guess, yeah, that they'rethey're equals.
It's a really like hard conceptto explain and I've had a lot
(10:57):
of I'm still learning about this.
I'm not finished my PhD yet,it's still something that I
grapple with, but, yeah, I guessit's really about seeing us as
equals and that you know, when atree falls down, it's not just
about taking away that tree.
It's about thinking aboutwhat's what that tree can now be
used for and realizing thatanimals are now going to inhabit
(11:18):
that tree and that's now goingto become a beehive or an ant
farm or things like that,because nature is perfectly
capable of, I guess, taking careof itself.
Speaker 1 (11:27):
Yeah, that's right.
And then you know humans tend tocome in and alter things very
quickly, and understanding howwe balance that out and, yeah,
and for me a lot of the time Ikeep thinking about, if children
have this foundationalunderstanding of nature and its
seasons, fluctuations, it willbe part of their consciousness
(11:51):
when they're decision-making asadults, so when they're in
positions of power to makedecisions about how spaces are
used, how communities cometogether, whether or not sites
are bulldozed and repurposed andall of those things that are
really, really important from anenvironmental perspective.
If they've got a core,foundational understanding and a
connection with those spaces,maybe they'll think twice about
(12:14):
the money, which is often thereason why we do these things
and our long-term ability tothrive as a species and all the
other species together, like yousay, because we're all equal
and it's not just about humansputting themselves above
everything else.
So that's why being in anoutdoor nature space is really
critical to the philosophy.
Now you mentioned weather interms of being outside and being
(12:37):
able to adapt and understandthose fluctuations, but that's
also part of the philosophy interms of being outside and being
able to adapt and understandthose fluctuations, but that's
also part of the philosophy interms of the fact that we go out
in all weather, yep, so how doyou see being out in all
different weather beingimportant?
Speaker 2 (12:54):
Well, just like I said, they've got to be out in
all weather to develop anappreciation for that weather.
I think one of the core partsabout being out in all weather
is helping children developresilience and helping them be
comfortable in all differenttypes of weather.
So rain, thunderstorms, hail,sunshine, extreme heats, we're
out there, it doesn't matter.
(13:14):
We definitely have policiesthat mean that we're not going
to be out there if it's going tohurt the child.
But as far as we're concerned,children can't develop that
ability to regulate themselvesand get past things if we never
allow them to do so.
So if we never allow them to gooutside and play in the rain,
how are they going to know whenthe rain is so hard that they
(13:35):
should not be playing outside init?
You know, I guess we just tryto think about things like that,
and you know things like thedifferent clothes that they wear
and how they need to put on araincoat.
So I was in Denmark last yearand it was amazing.
It literally had just startedpitter-pattering and half of the
kids just ran straight insideand put on raincoats.
There were no.
I was at a forest school inDenmark, I should say there were
(13:57):
no teachers that said anythingto them about the rain.
The other half played outsidein the rain and they were
absolutely fine with it.
The teachers didn't sayanything, the kids just
instinctively knew what to do.
So kids can't instinctively knowwhat to do.
If we never give them theopportunity, if we tell them to
go out and put on a raincoatstraight away, they're never
going to learn that the rainmakes their skin wet and they're
(14:17):
never going to learn that, oh,they're going to get really cold
and it's not going to be a verynice feeling.
You know, I was at a sessionabout a year ago and the kids
were playing in the water andthey were getting absolutely
soaked.
And right before they did that,they said can we go in the
water?
And the educator said to themyou can go in the water, but
this is what's going to happenand remember you didn't like it
last time and they're like wedon't care.
(14:39):
So they went in the water anywayand you know that built
something more inside them andmaybe next time they'll realize
that actually they did care.
Afterwards they went and driedall their clothes and hung them
up to dry.
So they obviously had a planand they knew that was going to
happen.
So they weren't worried aboutplaying in the water.
But the point there was thatthe educator didn't stop them
from doing it.
She just allowed them to goahead with it so they could
(15:01):
learn for themselves, becausethere's no point in us just
knowing.
Speaker 1 (15:04):
The kids have to know that's right and that's a huge
part of our role andresponsibility is not telling
them what to do, but it can beas simple as a reminder of hey,
last time, remember how we had areally uncomfortable time
afterwards, and exactly that.
Then the children can formulatea plan or change their plan and
(15:25):
they're like oh yeah, that didmake me uncomfortable and I
don't want to do that again, orno, I really enjoyed myself.
How do I avoid the second part,which was the discomfort that I
felt?
And that's a really importantpart of it, and I think what
makes me so sort of passionateabout this part of the
philosophy is when I look aroundat how many people will cancel
(15:47):
plans because of a little bit ofrain or an overcast day or
extreme heat or any of thosethings, when I've been forced to
go out in them because of ourprograms and had the best time.
So we're actively missing out onopportunities to experience
connection and you know thosethings that deeply fill our cups
(16:11):
because that discomfort ofmaybe sitting in the rain or
having to take a few extra stepsto keep ourselves comfortable
and oftentimes it's not eventhat bad too Like I can't
believe how many people will optout of even coming to forest
school when they first startcoming, because it might be
slightly wet and there's otherreasons why people don't want to
be on the roads and stuff likethat, which is fair enough, but
(16:34):
especially when you've gone andseen like the extremes of being
in the real cold, and I thinkthat's the really fascinating
part of all weather.
Um, place based in Australia,for us it's more extreme heat,
like how do we stay out in thisextreme heat, as opposed to
children playing out in the snow, which is what happens in other
countries, which I find reallyfascinating that you know that
(16:58):
doesn't even seem to be aconsideration for them and yet,
um, it's still a very heavyconversation in terms of the
barriers that sometimes peoplehave and get.
Speaker 2 (17:08):
Well, we just lock ourselves in this extreme heat,
right, we just lock ourselves inwith air conditioning.
You know, my girls and I'vebeen down to the creek.
We just got home last week froman overseas trip and we've been
down at our local creek everyday since we got home just to
sit in the cold water, becausewe'd much rather do that than go
and pay for, say, the pool.
But there's nobody else downthere and it's just.
I'm like this is a great space.
(17:29):
You could swim in it, you canplay in it, it's clean, there's
guppies in it, there's big fishswimming everywhere, like
there's nothing wrong with thisspace and nobody's in it.
Speaker 1 (17:37):
And we get all these odd looks whenever they see us
in it and I'd like to and it'sso funny because sometimes I'm
like, oh, do I really wantpeople to know about all my
secret spots?
But, um, ultimately that'swhat's going to make our society
really.
You know, help with mentalhealth, help with physical
health, help with, you know,connection and all of the, all
(17:58):
of the benefits that come frombeing outside.
Speaker 2 (18:01):
Well, Vicky, we've shared those spots, that spot
that we're at, we've shared thatwith our followers.
Speaker 1 (18:06):
Yeah, and we've done this.
I know there's so many peoplethat have been like you know
what One of the greatest thingsabout coming to your program is?
I've learned more about theplace that we live.
I didn't know this was here,and now this is going to be
somewhere that will becomememories for us and our family
when we spend more time here,which I think is a really great
(18:28):
thing.
And, yeah, I'd love to see morepeople.
I mean, it's frustrating.
Obviously more people areoutside and it becomes busier,
but maybe then we'll pay moreattention to how we preserve
these nature spaces if morepeople are craving them.
Speaker 2 (18:45):
I was also just thinking confidence.
They build confidence, right.
Our parents build confidence bybeing in those spaces in all
weather, and the kids buildconfidence because they may have
been scared to go down to thelocal creek before meeting us
and coming and spending time inour spaces and going.
Oh well, this isn't scary, Ican do this.
Speaker 1 (19:02):
Absolutely, I think you're exactly right it does.
It's really empowering for somepeople as well, particularly if
it's really out of theircomfort zone.
So that's really important aswell.
One of the big things when itcomes to forest school is the
risky play or adventurous playopportunities.
Things comes to forest schoolis the risky play or adventurous
(19:23):
play opportunities.
So I think that you know youcan have a really fantastic
program that doesn't do all ofthe adventurous things that you
can do, but the fact that you'rein nature means that there is
going to be riskier things.
Just, nature in itself isinherently riskier than a
concrete jungle in differentways, because I think there's
(19:45):
always risk in some way, likeeven a, even a playground
falling off monkey, like there'srisk everywhere, right, but I
think that nature presentsdifferent risky experiences and
we can add to those withdifferent things that we bring
as well.
So, um, what kinds of thingshave you seen, uh, and that
really excite you about allowingchildren to engage in more
(20:06):
risky activities?
Speaker 2 (20:08):
um, what have I seen children do?
Gosh, climb, um, climbdifferent rock faces.
So at one of our favoriteplaces down here jc sort of
falls there's a massive rockface and, um, we just love
letting the children climb it.
Children will only go as highas they instinct, as they feel
like they can.
I've got this favorite thingwhere I just try to talk.
I try to talk our parentsthrough it, because that can be
(20:29):
really scary, like watching yourchildren climb.
I can handle watching itbecause I know that they're
going to be okay, but theparents can get really nervous
about that.
So I try to talk to them aboutdifferent ways that they can
talk to their child.
Tree climbing Gosh, theyabsolutely love tree climbing.
We don't currently do that inour programs due to insurance,
but children absolutely lovetree climbing.
(20:50):
So children will findaffordances in any way, shape or
form in nature, and what I meanby affordances is if a child
sees a tree stump, they mightwant to jump off.
It might mean just want to siton it and pretend it's a throne.
Like an affordance is a childgiving, I guess, a action to
something that it wasn'tintended for.
Like you see, a hill that's notintended for just running up,
(21:13):
rolling down it, climbing up it.
It's a hill right, but a childhas given it that a tree isn't
intended for climbing, but achild has decided they're going
to go and climb that tree.
Um, you know, we put we've putswings in trees before in the
past, things like that.
Speaker 1 (21:28):
Um, oh gosh, there are so many things yeah, there's
levels of risk there and andthere is risk, as you say, in
affordances in nature, and thenthere's sometimes we will give
them something to take that tothe next level.
So we might bring in tools, wemight have a campfire where
we're, you know, looking atcooking and art and all of those
(21:48):
sorts of and just connectingand storytelling around fires.
So there's lots of differentways in which forest school in
itself it's not about just therisky play.
It's about the fact thatchildren will then learn how to
manage risk long-term as well,like they are able to actually
have the skill set to be able torecognise whether something is
(22:13):
safe or not, or whether or notthey're capable of handling that
activity, which is a reallyimportant part of that.
I know that with there's beencurriculum changes in Australia
and it's quite difficult toprovide those opportunities for
children inside.
So if you actually wantchildren to be able to build
that skill set, you actuallyneed to let them do things that
(22:37):
may have an outcome that is anegative one, and the idea is
that they don't have thatnegative consequence because
they're actually learning how toavoid that in the first place
by implementing their owncontrol measures, because that's
what we do on a risk assessment.
Right, we're looking at thecontrol measures to reduce the
(22:58):
risk level.
Well, children will come up withtheir own control measures,
like you say, like they willself-handicap if they feel like
they can't get up to wherethey're going to go.
They won't go that high becausethey can see that the risk of
them falling, hurting themselves, getting stuck, whatever it is,
is a lot higher.
So they won't go that highbecause they can see that the
risk of them falling, hurtingthemselves, getting stuck,
whatever it is, is a lot higher.
So they won't go that high.
They go to wherever you knowit's a little bit out of their
(23:18):
comfort zone, but they'recomfortable and they can get
back down or all of those sortsof things, which is really
important as well.
One of the other parts of theforest schooling philosophy is
giving children autonomy intheir play and learning Now
coming.
So you've worked inkindergartens and schools before
, amanda.
(23:39):
How much autonomy are childrengiven day to day?
Speaker 2 (23:43):
Children are told what to do, when to do it and
how to do it.
For example, my daughter is offto high school next year and
she had to make a video for herhigh school saying you know why
she was so excited to go to thishigh school?
And she literally said youwon't tell me what to do, how to
do it and when to do it.
So and her primary schooldoesn't do that whatsoever.
(24:04):
But she knows that in amainstream high school that's
what would happen.
It's the same thing in primaryschool.
So we're not actually allowingchildren to make their own
choices.
We're making their choices forthem.
You know, playing outside inthe raincoat.
We're telling them to go andput on a raincoat and put on
their gumboots.
We're not allowing them toexperience them for themselves
so then they can learn what theyneed to do to make sure that
(24:27):
things don't happen in thefuture.
Something that came out of myresearch recently was that we're
not allowing children you knowexactly what you're saying with
the risky play before.
This is quite like a extremeview, but one of the people was
saying that basically, childrenare going to be in car crashes.
They're going to not know theirlimits when it comes to being
18 and starting to drink andpotentially drive, because we've
(24:51):
actually never, ever let themdo that in childhood.
So if we're not allowingchildren autonomy and risk go
hand in hand, right.
If we're not allowing childrento make their own choices, then
they're going to take riskslater on.
Um, and letting children maketheir own choices is so simple
like there are some easy thingsthat you can do straight away.
To embed that, I always thinkrolling morning teas.
That's like my favoritecatchphrase.
(25:12):
If you just let children choosewhen they want to eat, they
will eat when they're hungry.
They may not actually be hungryuntil one o'clock in the
afternoon, and that's okay,because no child will starve
themselves.
Speaker 1 (25:22):
They are not at all when they're three and four.
Speaker 2 (25:25):
They're not thinking, they're just playing.
They might need you know.
You could remind them, youcould say are you going to eat,
like, are you ready to eat?
But just leave them, they'llcome to it.
When they're ready they will goand eat.
We see that at our sessions.
They eat more.
We always tell parents to bringan extra lunchbox because their
kids eat more.
Yeah, that's right.
Yeah, so I guess allowingchildren to make their own
(25:47):
choices and nature is theperfect place to allow children
to make their own choices,because there is, per se,
nothing there.
We haven't set up a hairdressercorner.
So in a kindergarten you've got, you know, a home corner, and
home corner can, you know, beattributed towards girls because
you've put hairdresser stuff inthere and doll stuff in there
and we definitely have boysplaying in there, but in my
(26:09):
experience, predominantly girlsplaying in there, whereas
outside they make their own homecorner, you know.
They go and set up their owncubby house and a bunch of trees
and they put a bunch of sticksout and everybody's playing in
that home corner, because ithasn't been pre-designed by a
teacher for a child to go andplay in.
It's been designed by childrenfor them to play in.
(26:29):
So they've made their completeown choice about how that's
going to look and what's goingto be in it and what they're
going to play and how they'regoing to play that in there.
So I guess it's really importantfor children to make their own
choices and I think, naturebeing this completely blank
space, we're not bringinganything out for them.
Sometimes, you know, we bringalong helpful things like rope
(26:50):
or a mud kitchen, but we're nottelling them what to do with
that.
They're going to do it bythemselves and that can be
really hard for a lot of people.
It can be really hard for kids,especially if they're used to
being told what to do.
So, just like we were talkingabout earlier, kids may need two
hours to settle into a sessionbecause they're not used to
coming to a session wherethey're not told what to do and
(27:10):
how to do it.
At the start of every session,we're like right, this is what's
available, you go and do it.
You go and do whatever you'dlike to do.
You know it may be.
And now the school holidayswe've got, say, bows and arrows
theme session.
I've seen kids who have notmade a bow and arrow at all and
they've been spent two hoursdigging a trench because they
wanted to dig a trench and thenthey played army games in that
(27:32):
trench and they had the besttime ever.
Was there an outcome attributedto that?
No, but were there a?
There were a hundred outcomesthat came out of that, but the
outcome that they specificallycame for they didn't get.
But they learned to play, theylearned to socialize, they
learned about depth, theyscience math, I mean, there were
so many concepts in that thatcould not have been pre-designed
(27:56):
by a teacher and they made allof their own choices.
That was completely autonomous.
Speaker 1 (28:01):
So I guess there's that link too, of we can create
and design activities andopportunities to teach a concept
.
It doesn't mean that thatactivity will be absorbed by the
child and they won't actuallylearn about it, or they could be
in it in the moment, but theydon't retain it.
If they come to that conclusionon their own, through their
(28:23):
play, it is more likely thatthey will take that concept,
internalize it and learn from iton their own, as opposed to
having a step-by-step lessonpresented to them by a teacher.
So I think that there is alittle bit of a switch that
needs to be made for educatorsto realize how powerful autonomy
(28:44):
can be in learning.
That's completely different tostructured activities that we
typically do because that's howwe see our role.
So it's a whole role shift aswell for facilitators, which
brings me to the last part ofthe philosophy, which is that it
is a holistic Well, I thinkwe've realized that, haven't we
(29:07):
Every time?
Speaker 2 (29:07):
you say something I reconnected to something that
was already there.
Every time you say something, Ireconnected to something that
was already there, that's right.
Yeah, I think with.
One of my biggest things isthat it's a philosophy.
I think that if you're doing itjust as an activity, where you
go out and you do forest schoolfor an hour a week and you've
done you know, quote marksforest school, that's not forest
(29:28):
school.
Forest school, just like yousaid, is a holistic thing that
you can take through everything.
It can be embedded everywhere.
You don't have to be outside todo it.
It's great to be outside innature, and I advocate for kids
being predominantly in nature,but it can also be something
that's done inside, simply byallowing children to make their
choices, having a blank space inyour classroom, allowing them
(29:51):
to take risks.
There are risks that you cantake inside.
I mean gosh, in some places, insome kindergartens, using a
pair of scissors can be deemed arisk.
Using a hot glue gun, like Ialways have a glue gun in my
kindergarten room, the parentsused to freak out.
We definitely had kids who gothot glue on their fingers.
They did not do it again.
They learned very quickly whatthe outcome of not using the hot
(30:11):
glue gun properly was.
Um, so there are definitely waysthat you can actually insert
risk inside and outside.
But you know, allowing childrento make their own choices, that
autonomy, all of those things.
So the forest school philosophycan be done on a whole anywhere
that you are.
But I definitely would advocate, you know, when we have our own
(30:32):
child care center, the kidswill be allowed to be outside as
much as they want to be.
But there are kids who actuallydon't love being outside.
We still get them to comeoutside of this, because how can
you learn to love it if you'renever in it?
But they will have that choicebetween indoor and outdoors.
If they want to be indoors forsome of their day, that's
perfectly fine as well, becauseI can implement that holistic
(30:52):
forest school philosophy nomatter where we are.
Speaker 1 (30:55):
And I guess, too, that's about helping children to
be safe as well.
When you're giving them thatautonomy, you're respecting
their need to stay safe, and forsome children it may take them
a while to feel safe outside.
And, as you're saying, that isabout a relationships too, about
forming those relationshipswith children and and listening
(31:16):
deeply listening to what theirneeds are in that moment, and
that doesn't mean that we can'textend them.
But that feeling of safety isreally important for children as
well, part of that holisticdevelopment well and look some
kids.
Speaker 2 (31:27):
You know, like you said, some kids have never been
outside.
I mean, we've got this wholeround of covid babies coming
through now, coming throughpreschools, that have never been
outside.
And you've been in theseindividual like inside their
homes, because we got told notto go outside, goodness knows
why, because you pretty much hada zero percent chance of
catching it when you're outside.
But we were told not to gooutside, we were told to stay
(31:49):
inside our homes and lockourselves away.
So there are kids that havenever touched it and have never
played in a creek and you knowthose.
Speaker 1 (31:56):
Yeah, we definitely need to be out there doing it
exactly well, I really hope thatpeople have gotten a little bit
more of an idea of the factthat forest schooling and I
guess that's why we kept thename and that's why we pursue
this, because all of thesethings are so important to embed
in in our programs and webelieve in them in terms of
(32:21):
allowing like all of theseelements are so important in
child development, which is whywe resonate so much with this
philosophy and from that, amandaand I are going to have a
little chat in the next episodeabout the word forest school and
the different names that havecome up and some of the heated
discussions around theterminology in our very next
(32:44):
episode.
So thank you, amanda, forcoming and chatting all things
about the forest schoolingphilosophy and, as always, guys,
we love doing this journey withyou.
Stay wild.
Thanks for having me.
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