October 1, 2024 • 17 mins
Can a name shape the way we connect with nature through education? On this episode of Raising Wildlings, we are joined by the insightful (and soon-to-be Dr) Amanda England, as we unpack the nuances behind terms such "Forest School," "Nature Play," and "Bush Kinder," and discuss how these names reflect the unique environments and philosophies they represent.
Amanda shares her rich experiences from Europe, offering a global perspective on how these programs are practiced differently. We also delve into the importance of place-responsiveness, especially within the diverse landscapes of Australia, and debate the necessity of a unified term for nature-based education.
We also explore the essential elements of a shared Nature Play philosophy and the strides made towards unifying various nature play bodies in Australia, and touch on the challenges of maintaining a genuine commitment to child-directed play, beyond just marketing allure.
We encourage our listeners to join us in this lively debate over terminology and contribute your thoughts and innovative ideas. Get ready to rethink how we name and perceive Nature Play!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Ushkindi Forest School.
What is in a name?
In today's episode, I'm joinedagain by soon-to-be Dr Amanda
England.
As we talk all about how wename our outdoor programs, I'd
like to acknowledge thetraditional custodians of the
land on which we're recordingtoday the Kabi, kabi and Gubbi
(00:20):
Gubbi people.
I would like to recognise thecontinued connection to the land
and waters of this beautifulplace we call home.
I also recognise Aboriginalpeople as the original
custodians of this land andacknowledge that they have never
ceded sovereignty.
I'd like to pay my respects toall Gubbi Gubbi elders,
ancestors and emerging eldersand any First Nations people
listening today.
(00:41):
Welcome to Raising Wildlings, apodcast about parenting,
alternative education, steppinginto the wilderness, however
that looks, with your family.
Each week, we'll beinterviewing experts that truly
inspire us to answer yourparenting and education
questions.
We'll also be sharing storiesfrom some incredible families
that took the leap and aretaking the road less travelled.
(01:02):
We're your hosts, vicki andNikki from Wildlings Forest
School.
Pop in your headphones, settlein and join us on this next
adventure.
Hello and welcome to theRaising Wildlings podcast.
My name is Vicki Oliver, I'mgoing to be your host again
today and I am joined by soon tobe Dr Amanda England.
Welcome back to the podcast,amanda.
Hey, everyone thanks for havingme.
(01:25):
So whilst Amanda's doing her PhD, we've had heaps of really
interesting conversations, andone of the conversations that we
have had is all about theterminology surrounding forest
school.
Now, as you may know, we run aforest school called Wildlings
Forest School and we veryspecifically chose to attach
(01:46):
ourselves to the word forestschool.
In our very previous episode.
We talked all about thephilosophy behind it, but here
in Australia there are otherwords that have been used to
describe programs that run underthe forest schooling philosophy
, and it's been prettyinteresting, amanda, some of the
conversations, because youspent some time in Europe last
(02:08):
year and you had some prettyinteresting conversations around
that.
So let's start by like what?
What words have you used?
Have you heard being used justto describe some form of nature
immersion program?
Nature immersion, nature play,immersive nature play programs.
(02:32):
What else?
Obviously, in Australia we usebush, kindy, beach, kindy,
nature school, just plain nature.
There are so many terms that arebeing used Around the world.
They're just using it.
Well, around the the world.
In europe they're just usingthe words nature play um, that's
a big one for them over there.
They're not using, aside fromin england.
(02:53):
Forest school is not well usedthroughout the rest of europe,
um, but yeah, it's definitelyaround the world.
It's definitely known by amultitude of things.
In Denmark it's actually knownas Yudda school, but that is
really only seen in the primaryschool, so for the younger years
they call it many differentthings like nature born haven,
(03:17):
um, nature school.
Nature school is basically thebiggest one over there.
They call it nature school andI think that's where um it's.
I find it very fascinating thatthere's such an intense
conversation I wouldn't evencall it a conversation because
some people get quite heatedaround what they're going to
call these things and I knowthat even within Australia there
has been um some backlash, evenin the creation of like
(03:47):
governing bodies to sort of bean.
What is the umbrella term thatwe're using?
Which is really interesting,because for us at Wildlings it's
about the philosophy, like whatis it that we're trying to
achieve?
What is it that we believe in?
The name itself, um isn't asimportant, and I think one of
(04:09):
the things that I've reallyloved about your work, and one
of the the key things that youfound in your when you've been
looking through all theliterature, is it being place
responsive.
What do you think about that?
Well, I mean, forest school isnot place responsive.
Is it?
Because, especially inAustralia, it's not forests
everywhere we've got deserts,we've got, um, you know what
(04:31):
else.
I can't even think what I'mthinking right now, but we've
got creeks, um, we've got dryrainforests, we've got wet
rainforests, we've got justnormal bush.
I mean, there are so many with.
It's also bush, yeah, bushkinder in australia.
Bush kinder is what the firstaustralian forest school was
known as, because they were outin the bush, but even then they
weren't out in the bush.
They were out in the bush, buteven then they weren't out in
(04:52):
the bush, they were out in thelocal parklands, yeah, so I
would not say the name school isactually place responsive
worldwide.
But I guess the biggest I've hadto change in my thesis I have
now.
I now no longer use the wordforest school, unless I'm
specifically talking about theBritish terminology.
Yeah, I use nature play in mythesis now because I think that
(05:15):
covers a wider range of things.
I don't know if that'll staythe way forever, but that's just
where I'm at in my reading andmy learning and my understanding
.
I guess the biggest uh problemwith the forest school
philosophy currently is that theforest school, what it is, um,
what it has become known as inother parts of the world, um is
(05:37):
a is not what we're talking.
What we just spoke about interms of the forest school
philosophy is not what ishappening in places that
specifically use the word forestschool.
Yeah, so there's an outcomebased completely to the
curriculum teacher driven.
That's what the research isshowing.
So I guess that the biggestproblem with using that name
(06:00):
right now is that it's notactually the philosophy.
Do I think we need to have aname and we all need to stick to
one name?
Yes, because how can we?
I mean reggio, emiliomontessori.
They just roll off the tongue.
You know those names, so weneed one name.
If it's going to be forestschool, great, we need one name
that literally encompasses itall so that it can be a
(06:22):
philosophy that rolls off thetongue.
My greatest dream is that everykindergarten in australia will
say we use the forest schoolphilosophy or we use the nature
play philosophy, something likethat, and people will just go oh
, I know what that is, yeah, um,I still think there's not
enough clarity around whatforest school is, so hopefully
people will start to understandfrom our last podcast.
I think we're doing amazingthings.
(06:43):
I mean, you know, I could bequite biased because obviously I
work in our business, but whenI was over in, yeah, when I was
over in Europe and I just sawwhat they were doing, I was over
in Europe, yeah, when I wasover in Europe and I just saw
what they were doing, I was likethis is what we're doing, like,
and they're taking me out and Iwas doing professional
development with them andthey're like telling me all
these things and I said to thembut guys, we already do this.
And they're like oh well, thenwhy are you here?
(07:04):
I don't actually know like youguys are doing what we're doing,
and we started having all theseprofessional conversations.
We were learning from eachother and we took some tips home
from them and they took sometips from me, because what we
are doing is nature play slash,forest school.
But I guess what forest schoolhas become in certain circles is
(07:26):
probably more attributed toschool, and that might that
might actually be the biggestproblem with that name, right,
it's not place responsive andit's got the word school in it,
right, and I think that's it,like every combination of names
there's something wrong, like,not something, the wrong's not
word, but there's somethingthat's not true about it.
So, for example, bush kinder inAustralia or bush kindy doesn't
take place in bushes, like somemight, but not all of them will
(07:52):
.
Just like, forest schools don'talways occur in a forest, and
then so that's where we'reseeing the evolution of beach
school, river school, creekkindy, desert kindy, which is
talking about the environment,that they're specifically taking
their children out coming undersome sort of umbrella term.
Now, when it comes to natureplay, I've always loved that,
but some people really still arestuck in the triviality of play
(08:15):
, so it doesn't seem, um,important enough, it doesn't
seem like academic enough, itdoesn't.
There's, there's somethingaround the word play that is not
going to really encompass howimportant it is, even though we
know play's important with, atsome point we're having to bring
some group in on the importance.
(08:38):
So, like you're stuck up on theword school, you're stuck on
the word bush, you're stuck onthe word play, and so there is
it's really difficult to findthis all-encompassing
terminology, you know thatcovers everything and that
everyone agrees on, because itjust feels like and people get
really passionate about it too,like we're not.
You know, we're not a forestschool because we're not in a
(09:00):
forest and our, I guess for usit's always been you know the
philosophy.
First, because we have debatedabout whether or not we change
what we do, but ultimately ithas always come back to the
philosophy and that's what webelieve in.
And maybe we need to be talkingabout that a lot more, like you
(09:20):
say, so that people understandit.
Well, that's my aim.
Look out of my research.
I not only want to write a bookabout philosophy and pedagogy,
which is just values and beliefsand then what you do,
demonstrating those values andbeliefs of what you do with kids
, but also, I guess, to rewritea conversation about what
actually nature play slash,forest school philosophy is like
(09:43):
what is it?
Because I just don't think wehave a deep, and I didn't, I
sure as heck didn't.
When I started Brisbane, I hadno idea what you know.
Like now, I have learned somuch, and I didn't, I sure as
heck didn't.
When I started Brisbane, I hadno idea what you know.
Like now, I have learned somuch, and I think we all have.
Over the last five years, yeah,you and um Nikki have been
reading so much, which I'dactually say was a better way of
doing it than I did.
But we've all been reading somuch and learning about so much
(10:07):
and just, yeah, really actuallygetting into what we believe
this philosophy is, which isabout getting children outdoors
and, you know, like you saidbefore, with the school and that
then being linked to acurriculum thing.
School Bushkindi over here isalso kindergarten in Australia
yeah, is different in everysingle state and in the ages.
(10:29):
So kindergarten in, say, newsouth wales is their first year
of primary school.
So that's another thing wrongwith the terms.
Right, that school can meandifferent things in different
countries.
That's right.
Well, it gives the wordnurseries overseas as opposed to
kindergartens or like daycare,and there's all of these
terminal there I guess thereisn't, and I, when you zoom out
(10:50):
that's true too of all of theterminology we use that there
sometimes isn't a consensus.
If you say my kid's inkindergarten in Queensland, that
means something completelydifferent in another state.
So it has been incrediblydifficult for us to come
together, I think that's.
I guess my frustration too isjust how long it has taken for
(11:14):
people to come together so thatwe can network and talk about
what we do under one umbrella,because there's, you know, and
that's starting to happen.
So we've started to see theemergence of the Australian
Forest School Association, whichwe're part of.
There have been other outdoorbodies like we've got Outdoors
Queensland, but that's differentbecause that's not looking at
(11:35):
nature play, that's looking atoutdoor recreation.
We do have nature play bodieswithin each of the states, but
nothing that brings us togetheras a country.
So it's a very interestingspace to be in and I think my
hope is to remind people thatultimately we are all in it
because we love it and we cansee the benefits of it.
(11:57):
So, no matter what you call it,we can all be learning from
each other.
As long as you're doing childdirected play outside, that's
right, and I guess that's thepart of it too is dressing it up
.
I think I've got a little bitand I definitely think over the
last seven years and workingwith some services and schools
(12:18):
is noticing when people are init for the right reasons and
when people are trying to jumpon board something that they can
see as a point of difference ina marketing perspective for
their service or their school,and it's not sustainable if
you're going to jump into it.
For that reason, you won't havea program that runs, because
you need to have your staff onboard.
(12:40):
You need to be working with theoutdoor space owners, whether
that's council or private owners.
Those relationships need to bemaintained over time and if you
don't have a core why and a corevalue around the program, it
won't be sustainable, which iswhy it's so important to
understand what your program istrying to achieve.
Like why do you believe in it?
(13:00):
So as much as we do?
Yeah, if you don't believe init, it will not continue.
I think that's the otherbiggest problem with the term
right is that it's become amarketing playoy.
But I'd argue and I've readresearch that shows that
Montessori and Reggio have allbecome marketing ploys.
So, at the end of the day, Ithink you're exactly right.
None of us are ever going toagree on this term.
I mean gosh.
(13:21):
I actually met another fellowPhD student at the conference
that I was at in Portugal whohad a problem with the word
nature play, because he thenfelt that that was us taking
power over nature.
So this is along the lines of,you know, yeah, basically us
asserting that we are dominantover nature, and I was like, oh,
my goodness.
So yeah, yeah and yeah, I thinkthat there's look.
(13:45):
Part of me thinks that it's itis important to think critically
about some of the things thatwe're doing, but I also think
that if it's something a littlebit more trivial and it's
stopping us from actuallygetting outside or I don't know,
there is something in that thatI would like for us to just be
(14:06):
a little bit more accepting ofdifferent people and their
journeys and having differentideas.
But okay, we don't agree on thename, but we can talk about
other things that we have thatare the actual nuts and bolts of
the program.
Yeah, I guess, like there arepeople who haven't joined the
Australian Forest SchoolAssociation because they
disagree with the name, and onour front page, I'm quite sure
(14:28):
that it says we don't know ifthis is our full-time name, like
we're not sure, but this iswhat we're working with right
now, because forest school isunderstood in Australia and
people do hear that name and go,oh yep, I know that's bush
kidney basically.
So, yeah, bush kidney.
I mean, look, even the bushkidney term, I don't.
You know, there are people whowere quite high up in developing
(14:51):
that term, who don't love thatterm.
So yeah, and I guess wecouldn't call it the bushy
Association, because there arepeople that don't work with
kindy aged children who also donature immersion type programs
for lots of different age groups.
But the guts of the program isstill the same, which is, I
guess, why forest school stillbecame, because I guess it
(15:15):
encompasses an age range, maybe,I don't know.
It's really interesting thedifferent ways you debate it,
but at the end of the day, Ithink, yeah, you choose the
terminology that resonates themost with you, but hopefully,
underneath that terminology, youhave a very solid understanding
of what it is you're trying toachieve, and that's why I think
(15:37):
understanding what thephilosophies are are really
important.
So, if you haven't alreadyalready jump back to the last
episode that Amanda and I justhad released, because we talk
all about the nuts and bolts ofthe forest schooling philosophy
what makes it so important andsuch an incredible way to be
working with our young people.
Amanda, thank you so much forjoining me again.
(15:57):
If you have any thoughts on theterminology around forest school
, we'd love to hear it in thecomments.
You know healthy debate.
Maybe someone else will come upand invent a totally new term
that really stands out to all ofus.
I'm holding my breath, butanyway, we'll continue this
conversation and, as always, welove doing this journey with you
(16:18):
.
So until next time, stay wild.
Ushkindi Forest School.
What is in a name?
In today's episode, I'm joinedagain by soon-to-be Dr Amanda
England.
As we talk all about how wename our outdoor programs, I'd
like to acknowledge thetraditional custodians of the
land on which we're recordingtoday the Kabi, kabi and Gubbi
(00:20):
Gubbi people.
I would like to recognise thecontinued connection to the land
and waters of this beautifulplace we call home.
I also recognise Aboriginalpeople as the original
custodians of this land andacknowledge that they have never
ceded sovereignty.
I'd like to pay my respects toall Gubbi Gubbi elders,
ancestors and emerging eldersand any First Nations people
listening today.
(00:41):
Welcome to Raising Wildlings, apodcast about parenting,
alternative education, steppinginto the wilderness, however
that looks, with your family.
Each week, we'll beinterviewing experts that truly
inspire us to answer yourparenting and education
questions.
We'll also be sharing storiesfrom some incredible families
that took the leap and aretaking the road less travelled.
(01:02):
We're your hosts, vicki andNikki from Wildlings Forest
School.
Pop in your headphones, settlein and join us on this next
adventure.
Hello and welcome to theRaising Wildlings podcast.
My name is Vicki Oliver, I'mgoing to be your host again
today and I am joined by soon tobe Dr Amanda England.
Welcome back to the podcast,amanda.
Hey, everyone thanks for havingme.
(01:25):
So whilst Amanda's doing her PhD, we've had heaps of really
interesting conversations, andone of the conversations that we
have had is all about theterminology surrounding forest
school.
Now, as you may know, we run aforest school called Wildlings
Forest School and we veryspecifically chose to attach
(01:46):
ourselves to the word forestschool.
In our very previous episode.
We talked all about thephilosophy behind it, but here
in Australia there are otherwords that have been used to
describe programs that run underthe forest schooling philosophy
, and it's been prettyinteresting, amanda, some of the
conversations, because youspent some time in Europe last
(02:08):
year and you had some prettyinteresting conversations around
that.
So let's start by like what?
What words have you used?
Have you heard being used justto describe some form of nature
immersion program?
Nature immersion, nature play,immersive nature play programs.
(02:32):
What else?
Obviously, in Australia we usebush, kindy, beach, kindy,
nature school, just plain nature.
There are so many terms that arebeing used Around the world.
They're just using it.
Well, around the the world.
In europe they're just usingthe words nature play um, that's
a big one for them over there.
They're not using, aside fromin england.
(02:53):
Forest school is not well usedthroughout the rest of europe,
um, but yeah, it's definitelyaround the world.
It's definitely known by amultitude of things.
In Denmark it's actually knownas Yudda school, but that is
really only seen in the primaryschool, so for the younger years
they call it many differentthings like nature born haven,
(03:17):
um, nature school.
Nature school is basically thebiggest one over there.
They call it nature school andI think that's where um it's.
I find it very fascinating thatthere's such an intense
conversation I wouldn't evencall it a conversation because
some people get quite heatedaround what they're going to
call these things and I knowthat even within Australia there
has been um some backlash, evenin the creation of like
(03:47):
governing bodies to sort of bean.
What is the umbrella term thatwe're using?
Which is really interesting,because for us at Wildlings it's
about the philosophy, like whatis it that we're trying to
achieve?
What is it that we believe in?
The name itself, um isn't asimportant, and I think one of
(04:09):
the things that I've reallyloved about your work, and one
of the the key things that youfound in your when you've been
looking through all theliterature, is it being place
responsive.
What do you think about that?
Well, I mean, forest school isnot place responsive.
Is it?
Because, especially inAustralia, it's not forests
everywhere we've got deserts,we've got, um, you know what
(04:31):
else.
I can't even think what I'mthinking right now, but we've
got creeks, um, we've got dryrainforests, we've got wet
rainforests, we've got justnormal bush.
I mean, there are so many with.
It's also bush, yeah, bushkinder in australia.
Bush kinder is what the firstaustralian forest school was
known as, because they were outin the bush, but even then they
weren't out in the bush.
They were out in the bush, buteven then they weren't out in
(04:52):
the bush, they were out in thelocal parklands, yeah, so I
would not say the name school isactually place responsive
worldwide.
But I guess the biggest I've hadto change in my thesis I have
now.
I now no longer use the wordforest school, unless I'm
specifically talking about theBritish terminology.
Yeah, I use nature play in mythesis now because I think that
(05:15):
covers a wider range of things.
I don't know if that'll staythe way forever, but that's just
where I'm at in my reading andmy learning and my understanding
.
I guess the biggest uh problemwith the forest school
philosophy currently is that theforest school, what it is, um,
what it has become known as inother parts of the world, um is
(05:37):
a is not what we're talking.
What we just spoke about interms of the forest school
philosophy is not what ishappening in places that
specifically use the word forestschool.
Yeah, so there's an outcomebased completely to the
curriculum teacher driven.
That's what the research isshowing.
So I guess that the biggestproblem with using that name
(06:00):
right now is that it's notactually the philosophy.
Do I think we need to have aname and we all need to stick to
one name?
Yes, because how can we?
I mean reggio, emiliomontessori.
They just roll off the tongue.
You know those names, so weneed one name.
If it's going to be forestschool, great, we need one name
that literally encompasses itall so that it can be a
(06:22):
philosophy that rolls off thetongue.
My greatest dream is that everykindergarten in australia will
say we use the forest schoolphilosophy or we use the nature
play philosophy, something likethat, and people will just go oh
, I know what that is, yeah, um,I still think there's not
enough clarity around whatforest school is, so hopefully
people will start to understandfrom our last podcast.
I think we're doing amazingthings.
(06:43):
I mean, you know, I could bequite biased because obviously I
work in our business, but whenI was over in, yeah, when I was
over in Europe and I just sawwhat they were doing, I was over
in Europe, yeah, when I wasover in Europe and I just saw
what they were doing, I was likethis is what we're doing, like,
and they're taking me out and Iwas doing professional
development with them andthey're like telling me all
these things and I said to thembut guys, we already do this.
And they're like oh well, thenwhy are you here?
(07:04):
I don't actually know like youguys are doing what we're doing,
and we started having all theseprofessional conversations.
We were learning from eachother and we took some tips home
from them and they took sometips from me, because what we
are doing is nature play slash,forest school.
But I guess what forest schoolhas become in certain circles is
(07:26):
probably more attributed toschool, and that might that
might actually be the biggestproblem with that name, right,
it's not place responsive andit's got the word school in it,
right, and I think that's it,like every combination of names
there's something wrong, like,not something, the wrong's not
word, but there's somethingthat's not true about it.
So, for example, bush kinder inAustralia or bush kindy doesn't
take place in bushes, like somemight, but not all of them will
(07:52):
.
Just like, forest schools don'talways occur in a forest, and
then so that's where we'reseeing the evolution of beach
school, river school, creekkindy, desert kindy, which is
talking about the environment,that they're specifically taking
their children out coming undersome sort of umbrella term.
Now, when it comes to natureplay, I've always loved that,
but some people really still arestuck in the triviality of play
(08:15):
, so it doesn't seem, um,important enough, it doesn't
seem like academic enough, itdoesn't.
There's, there's somethingaround the word play that is not
going to really encompass howimportant it is, even though we
know play's important with, atsome point we're having to bring
some group in on the importance.
(08:38):
So, like you're stuck up on theword school, you're stuck on
the word bush, you're stuck onthe word play, and so there is
it's really difficult to findthis all-encompassing
terminology, you know thatcovers everything and that
everyone agrees on, because itjust feels like and people get
really passionate about it too,like we're not.
You know, we're not a forestschool because we're not in a
(09:00):
forest and our, I guess for usit's always been you know the
philosophy.
First, because we have debatedabout whether or not we change
what we do, but ultimately ithas always come back to the
philosophy and that's what webelieve in.
And maybe we need to be talkingabout that a lot more, like you
(09:20):
say, so that people understandit.
Well, that's my aim.
Look out of my research.
I not only want to write a bookabout philosophy and pedagogy,
which is just values and beliefsand then what you do,
demonstrating those values andbeliefs of what you do with kids
, but also, I guess, to rewritea conversation about what
actually nature play slash,forest school philosophy is like
(09:43):
what is it?
Because I just don't think wehave a deep, and I didn't, I
sure as heck didn't.
When I started Brisbane, I hadno idea what you know.
Like now, I have learned somuch, and I didn't, I sure as
heck didn't.
When I started Brisbane, I hadno idea what you know.
Like now, I have learned somuch, and I think we all have.
Over the last five years, yeah,you and um Nikki have been
reading so much, which I'dactually say was a better way of
doing it than I did.
But we've all been reading somuch and learning about so much
(10:07):
and just, yeah, really actuallygetting into what we believe
this philosophy is, which isabout getting children outdoors
and, you know, like you saidbefore, with the school and that
then being linked to acurriculum thing.
School Bushkindi over here isalso kindergarten in Australia
yeah, is different in everysingle state and in the ages.
(10:29):
So kindergarten in, say, newsouth wales is their first year
of primary school.
So that's another thing wrongwith the terms.
Right, that school can meandifferent things in different
countries.
That's right.
Well, it gives the wordnurseries overseas as opposed to
kindergartens or like daycare,and there's all of these
terminal there I guess thereisn't, and I, when you zoom out
(10:50):
that's true too of all of theterminology we use that there
sometimes isn't a consensus.
If you say my kid's inkindergarten in Queensland, that
means something completelydifferent in another state.
So it has been incrediblydifficult for us to come
together, I think that's.
I guess my frustration too isjust how long it has taken for
(11:14):
people to come together so thatwe can network and talk about
what we do under one umbrella,because there's, you know, and
that's starting to happen.
So we've started to see theemergence of the Australian
Forest School Association, whichwe're part of.
There have been other outdoorbodies like we've got Outdoors
Queensland, but that's differentbecause that's not looking at
(11:35):
nature play, that's looking atoutdoor recreation.
We do have nature play bodieswithin each of the states, but
nothing that brings us togetheras a country.
So it's a very interestingspace to be in and I think my
hope is to remind people thatultimately we are all in it
because we love it and we cansee the benefits of it.
(11:57):
So, no matter what you call it,we can all be learning from
each other.
As long as you're doing childdirected play outside, that's
right, and I guess that's thepart of it too is dressing it up
.
I think I've got a little bitand I definitely think over the
last seven years and workingwith some services and schools
(12:18):
is noticing when people are init for the right reasons and
when people are trying to jumpon board something that they can
see as a point of difference ina marketing perspective for
their service or their school,and it's not sustainable if
you're going to jump into it.
For that reason, you won't havea program that runs, because
you need to have your staff onboard.
(12:40):
You need to be working with theoutdoor space owners, whether
that's council or private owners.
Those relationships need to bemaintained over time and if you
don't have a core why and a corevalue around the program, it
won't be sustainable, which iswhy it's so important to
understand what your program istrying to achieve.
Like why do you believe in it?
(13:00):
So as much as we do?
Yeah, if you don't believe init, it will not continue.
I think that's the otherbiggest problem with the term
right is that it's become amarketing playoy.
But I'd argue and I've readresearch that shows that
Montessori and Reggio have allbecome marketing ploys.
So, at the end of the day, Ithink you're exactly right.
None of us are ever going toagree on this term.
I mean gosh.
(13:21):
I actually met another fellowPhD student at the conference
that I was at in Portugal whohad a problem with the word
nature play, because he thenfelt that that was us taking
power over nature.
So this is along the lines of,you know, yeah, basically us
asserting that we are dominantover nature, and I was like, oh,
my goodness.
So yeah, yeah and yeah, I thinkthat there's look.
(13:45):
Part of me thinks that it's itis important to think critically
about some of the things thatwe're doing, but I also think
that if it's something a littlebit more trivial and it's
stopping us from actuallygetting outside or I don't know,
there is something in that thatI would like for us to just be
(14:06):
a little bit more accepting ofdifferent people and their
journeys and having differentideas.
But okay, we don't agree on thename, but we can talk about
other things that we have thatare the actual nuts and bolts of
the program.
Yeah, I guess, like there arepeople who haven't joined the
Australian Forest SchoolAssociation because they
disagree with the name, and onour front page, I'm quite sure
(14:28):
that it says we don't know ifthis is our full-time name, like
we're not sure, but this iswhat we're working with right
now, because forest school isunderstood in Australia and
people do hear that name and go,oh yep, I know that's bush
kidney basically.
So, yeah, bush kidney.
I mean, look, even the bushkidney term, I don't.
You know, there are people whowere quite high up in developing
(14:51):
that term, who don't love thatterm.
So yeah, and I guess wecouldn't call it the bushy
Association, because there arepeople that don't work with
kindy aged children who also donature immersion type programs
for lots of different age groups.
But the guts of the program isstill the same, which is, I
guess, why forest school stillbecame, because I guess it
(15:15):
encompasses an age range, maybe,I don't know.
It's really interesting thedifferent ways you debate it,
but at the end of the day, Ithink, yeah, you choose the
terminology that resonates themost with you, but hopefully,
underneath that terminology, youhave a very solid understanding
of what it is you're trying toachieve, and that's why I think
(15:37):
understanding what thephilosophies are are really
important.
So, if you haven't alreadyalready jump back to the last
episode that Amanda and I justhad released, because we talk
all about the nuts and bolts ofthe forest schooling philosophy
what makes it so important andsuch an incredible way to be
working with our young people.
Amanda, thank you so much forjoining me again.
(15:57):
If you have any thoughts on theterminology around forest school
, we'd love to hear it in thecomments.
You know healthy debate.
Maybe someone else will come upand invent a totally new term
that really stands out to all ofus.
I'm holding my breath, butanyway, we'll continue this
conversation and, as always, welove doing this journey with you
(16:18):
.
So until next time, stay wild.
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