February 19, 2024 • 52 mins
"Are Outfitters the Guardians of Nature's Sanctity or Opportunists in the Wilderness?"
In this episode of the Ranch Investor Podcast, we dive deep into the heart of Montana's vast landscapes with Jeremy DeVries. Join us as we explore the intricate balance between preserving the wilderness and embracing the opportunities it offers. Jeremy, a seasoned outfitter with a passion for the great outdoors, shares his insights on the challenges and rewards of outfitting in Montana. From the serene moments at dawn, setting decoys on a silent river, to the complexities of navigating the outfitter industry amidst growing pressures and regulations. How do outfitters like Jeremy ensure they contribute positively to conservation while providing unforgettable experiences for those seeking the wilderness? Tune in to discover the delicate dance between man and nature, and the pivotal role outfitters play in this age-old relationship.
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Episode Transcript
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Jeremy DeVries (00:00):
I know that you, in nine years, are going to
have a kid that you're going towant to take on somewhere, and
you want it to be just as goodfor him as it was when you were
12.
Colter DeVries (00:10):
Welcome to the Ranch Investor podcast.
I am your three-year host,Colter DeVries, accredited land
consultant with the Realtor LandInstitute and accredited farm
manager with ASFMRA.
Today, I'm excited to bring youthe experts on a weekly basis
to hear what's trending, what'shappening, what's going on in
(00:33):
Montana, Wyoming, the West andranches across the United States
.
Ad (00:36):
The Ranch Investor podcast is the most downloaded and
informative industry-specificcontent that intrigues while
entertains.
Colter DeVries (00:45):
Welcome everyone to the Ranch Investor podcast.
Today I have on Jeremy DeVriesDeFries.
We don't even know how to sayour own last name, do we?
Jeremy DeVries (00:55):
Yeah, it's.
Lots of people pronounce itdifferent ways.
No one has a chance to spell it, no matter what.
Colter DeVries (01:01):
And I end up just telling people DeVries,
delta, echo Victor, romeo, india, echo Sierra, you've practiced
that several times oh yeah, well, I'm on calls of customer
service a lot.
So if anyone thinks I'mpracticing nepotism by having
you on here friends and family,we are related probably.
Jeremy DeVries (01:25):
Yeah, my mom, who kind of does some genealogy
stuff, and your aunt.
Colter DeVries (01:31):
Adele, Yep Adele , who does genealogy as well.
Jeremy DeVries (01:33):
They had talked back and forth about some of the
stuff and they tracked ourfamilies your family and my
family back to the borderbetween Germany and Holland.
Colter DeVries (01:43):
Okay.
Jeremy DeVries (01:43):
And that our families lived as close as four
miles apart from.
Colter DeVries (01:46):
I did not hear that.
That's news to me.
I didn't know that.
Jeremy DeVries (01:49):
Yeah, and then also some of our families cross
paths through South Dakota andIllinois, I believe, kind of
Chicago area, I think.
Colter DeVries (01:59):
Around 1883 or 81.
Yeah, long time ago.
Jeremy DeVries (02:03):
But never could make a connection actual
connection.
That's why I never could figureit out that we were actually,
you know, a connection.
So they just lost records orwhatever.
Colter DeVries (02:11):
So and you hail from the northern part of the
state.
Yeah, probably five hours away.
Jeremy DeVries (02:17):
Yeah, six Yep.
Little town called Sunburst,montana.
It's right up on the Canadianborder, eight miles from.
Colter DeVries (02:21):
Canada.
So so I am kind of being anepotist in this regard.
That you're probably related,but the reason I have you on is
you are a outfitter.
Jeremy DeVries (02:32):
I am.
Colter DeVries (02:33):
And what do you do?
What do you outfit?
Jeremy DeVries (02:35):
So I've been an outfitter for a long time.
I sell health insurance fulltime, actually large group
health insurance, and I kind ofhave a part time outfitting
business.
That I've been doing for thelast, well, for the last 30
years.
So I guide for birds and fish.
I don't do any big games, Idon't do big.
I don't do birds or or, excuseme, I don't do elk or deer or
(02:55):
anything like that, just birdsand fish, mostly waterfall.
Colter DeVries (02:58):
Blast and cast Kind of On the Big Horn River.
Jeremy DeVries (03:01):
Kind of we don't do a lot of blast and casts
Like that.
That term has become like akind of a common one in the
industry.
But I don't do them becausewhen you try to fish and hunt in
the same day you end up kind ofdoing both of them Half-assed.
So I kind of we'll more like ona particular day we'll focus on
(03:21):
ducks for one day and thenwe'll fish the next day and then
we'll focus on ducks again thenext day.
So we'll go hunt, fish hunt, orwe'll go fish, hunt, fish or
something like that.
But rarely do we try to mixthem together.
Colter DeVries (03:32):
Now this, this part time outfitting, is this
like part time real estate,where you can put on a seminar
around the country that hey,make $5,000 a month from real
estate.
You don't even need a license,you can do it part time.
Jeremy DeVries (03:46):
No, I'm licensed outfitter and have been since
1997.
And I got four or five guidesthat work for me.
I don't do a lot of the actualday to day guiding I still do on
the duck, on the duck side Istill do.
But my full-time job sellinginsurance most of the time, but
this is a thing that feeds mysoul.
(04:07):
You know like it makes me happyto go out there and spend a day
with people chasing ducks orcatching fish, and a lot of my
insurance clients have nowbecome like outfitting clients
too, right, so it kind of workswell together as this isn't an
attack right off, though.
Colter DeVries (04:22):
I mean it's an actual economic going concern.
Right, correct, okay, it isBecause you just bought a lodge.
I did what went into thedecision making of buying a
lodge?
Jeremy DeVries (04:33):
Well, we were.
I have a partner on the lodge.
His name is Mack, great guy.
He's been my head guide foreight years or something like
that, and we've been hiring abunch of people or hiring a
bunch of locations, airbnb typestuff and had been sending our
money to these Airbnb's to putall of our clients in.
So either Airbnb's or hotels orwhatever.
(04:55):
And the number was starting toget kind of substantial.
So Mack and I sat down and said, hey, why don't we pay
ourselves?
So we bought a lodge so that wecan basically put our own
clients into our own buildinginstead of paying that money to
someone else.
Colter DeVries (05:08):
So so you were internalizing an operating
expense?
We were Okay.
Jeremy DeVries (05:13):
I like that you talk so technically.
Colter DeVries (05:14):
I try to Now.
Mack is a guide.
Yeah, yep, from myunderstanding of having a real
estate license, can he become anassociate outfitter?
Can you guys?
Would you be a supervisingoutfitter?
Is the structure much like realestate where I'm the super
supervising broker.
(05:35):
I can have associate brokerssign off on deals for me?
Jeremy DeVries (05:39):
Yeah, so it's a great question.
So in the state of Montana youcan get a guides license from
the state In order to get thatguy licensed, so you have to
have an outfitter sign off.
So it's very similar to anagent broker kind of
relationship.
So basically I have anoutfitters license.
Mack is a licensed guide thatworks for me.
He'll probably get his ownoutfitters license at some point
.
He's I mean, he's he's morethan capable, he's, he's
(06:00):
outstanding, but it does workthat way.
So licensed guide in the state.
The only difference between aguide and an outfitter is that a
guide can't actually chargemoney, only an outfitter can
charge money.
So the outfitter has to collectall the money and then they
hire guides to do some of thework underneath them.
Colter DeVries (06:16):
Basically, Okay, so so Matt could become an
outfitter, and would it still beyour license?
Would it still be?
Jeremy DeVries (06:25):
with you, then he would get his own license.
We would just practice together, okay.
Colter DeVries (06:29):
And so the guides, are they paid by you, or
they paid by commission, orpaid by?
The outfitter paid by theoutfitter.
Is it a percentage of a bookbooking fee?
Jeremy DeVries (06:43):
Usually it's a per day rate per day.
So, yeah, you basically agreewith the and the guides are
usually all 1099 independentcontractors and so they have
their own independent trade.
That you know.
They run their own boat andthey run their own truck and
they run all of their owndecision making on the river and
we just set a day rate.
They take a day rate for it.
But now Mack and I are nowpartners on this property and
(07:05):
we're partners in River RockOutfitters and a brand new LLC,
so we're going to share profitsthroughout the whole thing.
So, but it will still runthrough basically my outfitter's
license.
Colter DeVries (07:16):
What kind of education, trainings, licensing
requirements go into anoutfitter?
Can I, just me?
Can I take some courses andbecome an outfitter tomorrow?
You?
Jeremy DeVries (07:26):
can't, you can't .
So in order to be a guide, it'spretty easy.
I could sign a piece of paperright as an outfitter.
I could sign a piece of paperright now and I could make a
culture of license toningfishing guide in Montana.
But in order to be in myposition as an outfitter, you
have to take an exam, a writtenexam.
You have to pay a pretty heftylittle fee in order to get your
(07:48):
license.
Then you have to prove 100 daysworth of guide experience,
either for whatever game thatyou're chasing.
So if it's fish, you have tohave 100 days.
If it's birds, you have to have100 days.
If it's deer and elk, you haveto have 100 days.
So you have to show days worthof experience.
Then you have to buy insuranceand insure yourself.
So it's a fairly lengthyprocess.
Most people in their first yearof guiding they'll only get 30
(08:10):
days.
So in order to get 100 daysworth of experience, you have
it's kind of a three year dealSome young guides who are really
good.
You know, if they're really hotyoung guys, maybe they'll get
80 or 90 in their first year.
But it's hard to get over 100guide days in a season.
Colter DeVries (08:25):
So that sounds a lot like real estate.
It usually takes I mean, ifyou're killing it in Montana
three years, $30 million, tobecome a broker.
So you start off as an agent,gain your experience and work
your way up, just like the guide, outfit or relationship, yep.
So why?
What's the problem with me?
(08:46):
Just, I don't have a license,but my family has a ranch.
Why can't I just do illegaloutfitting?
What's wrong with?
Jeremy DeVries (08:53):
that Probably the biggest.
The number one reason isprobably you wouldn't be insured
.
So all of my clients areinsured for a million dollars
per person on any day that theycome out, so something terrible
would happen.
I'm required by statute to haveinsurance to cover them for
anything that could possibly gowrong.
I would say that's probably thenumber one reason.
Colter DeVries (09:12):
And I would assume all of your guides and
yourself.
You have CE trainings andprobably first aid.
Jeremy DeVries (09:19):
EMT First aid, first aid, yep, first aid.
It used to be first aid, ncpr,but now it's just first aid.
Colter DeVries (09:27):
So I hear a lot about illegal outfitting in
Montana.
Yeah, tell me about this.
Jeremy DeVries (09:33):
That's funny.
I was talking to a warden justyesterday in Columbus, Montana.
Colter DeVries (09:37):
What is it?
What is illegal outfitting?
Jeremy DeVries (09:39):
So illegal outfitting is basically
accepting fee, accepting somesort of compensation for
services that you don't have alicense to offer, basically.
So in order to get that license, there was all those
requirements that I just talkedabout, and I think the biggest
one being the years ofexperience and the days or and
the insurance.
(10:00):
So basically what it means it'sin Montana, if you hire an
outfitter, they're going to bepretty competent and they don't
have those rules in other states.
Oklahoma, if you just sayyou're a guide, you're a guide.
Alaska, if you just put out asign on your window and say
you're a guide, you're a guide,and what ends up happening in
some of those other places isthat you get about a 50-50
experience, Like half of themare good and know what they're
(10:21):
doing and the other half they'reterrible and craps you and they
stink right.
But, in Montana because we havethose kind of laws in place and
generally I don't like laws andrules, but when?
Because those are in place inMontana.
If you hire an outfitter,pretty good chance they're going
to have an idea what they'redoing and and do a pretty decent
job and I mean I bring this upon the podcast.
Colter DeVries (10:40):
I'm generally I mean, I'm blowhard libertarian,
so I'm generally againstlicensing and I would be okay if
doctors did not have to gothrough licensing accountants,
real estate.
But I do understand and I willrecognize that those of us with
a license provide a higherstandard of service.
(11:00):
Yeah, I don't think I don't,because there are unlicensed
real estate wheelers and dealersout there, right, Just just
like we have lots of illegaloutfitters, Sure.
Jeremy DeVries (11:10):
And we do and we have guys that I see it every
year.
There's always illegaloutfitters out there doing what
they're doing and the biggestthing, the biggest fear that I
have especially being theinsurance nerd that I am right
Something awful were to happento some of those people on those
on those illegally outfittedtrips.
You know compensation for thosefolks and it can be scary,
(11:30):
especially when you're packingaround guns and you know going
out when it's 23 below zero andyou know there's some fairly
dangerous things that you end updoing in the in the outfitting
business and I think theinsurance part is a huge deal.
Colter DeVries (11:43):
So, yeah, I mean the standard of care, the
assurance, the insurance, theliability, the risk.
All of that goes into thislicensing issue that I just I
don't like as a free marketlibertarian.
But I, you know, I have alicense and I respect that and I
think customers and clientsshould as well.
Jeremy DeVries (12:02):
Well, I completely agree and well, as
far as the libertarian part I'mbasically, I guess I would say I
lean that way myself but I alsoappreciate the fact that it is
difficult to become an outfitterin this state.
There's been become thisrelationship between out of
state people and in-state peopleusing resources that are here
(12:25):
that you and I pay taxes for,that other people don't pay for
for, and how all of that kind ofties together, where I
appreciate the fact that thereis some requirements, for lack
of better term.
It eliminates the riffraff manAbsolutely Like.
It just gets rid of some of theriffraff.
Colter DeVries (12:43):
Well, on that note of riffraff and licensing
and regulations.
So me being in the ranchbrokerage business, I've been
hearing of new buyers coming toMontana and they've been taking
their buddies out and harvesting, let's say, five bull elk off a
ranch where they have zero tax.
Is that really going on?
(13:06):
Is that is talk about theproblems of outfitting and
guiding and and recreationindustry in Montana, sport,
sportsmen industry Do we reallyhave an issue of I don't know
what would you call thatStealing a public resource?
Jeremy DeVries (13:23):
Um, I as far as like, as far as deer and elk.
I don't do any deer or poaching.
Colter DeVries (13:28):
I guess you call it poaching because it is but,
yeah, and and yeah, I would.
Jeremy DeVries (13:32):
I'm sure that happens.
I mean, a guy comes in.
I can think of a guy right now,paid 18 million dollars for a
local ranch, 60,000 acres, niceplace.
You would know it if I said it.
Um, and, and I'm sure that ifhe's and he's from out of state
let's say he's from Missouri andhe comes up here with this 13
year old kid and the 13 year oldkid and him are wandering
(13:53):
around in the hills on their60,000 acre ranch and they
decided to pull the trigger on abull elk.
I, I got a guy, I got a guyback home.
I have a guy that I know backhome and I said and I won't say
his name either, but I said hey,tom, you shoot those elk out in
your yard and he goes everyyear I shoot a bull up every
single year and they go and andI and he said, and so do my
(14:15):
grandsons and whatever, and hegoes, I feed them elk.
and those are right, you know.
I feed those elk and I'm goingto shoot one.
I said, man, how do you getlicenses for everybody up here?
So it's a tough draw area andit's tough to get on.
He goes I never, I haven'tbought a license in my life.
He just says I feed him.
I'm going to shoebox full offarmers tags.
I'm going to shoot a couple ofthem, yeah, yeah.
Colter DeVries (14:35):
I actually took a friend hunting on my folks's
place this year and my mom sheraised an eyebrow.
She goes you bought a license.
I guess now that I am licensedand I have a business, I
probably probably don't want togo by the old farmers way and
that that's actually very common, I would say, with my, my
(14:57):
network of ranchers.
So I guess the question I wantto pose from that how is it any
different when an Oklahoma Texasguy buys a 60,000 acre ranch,
takes three bowls bull elk offof it illegally or brings up 20
of his duck hunting buddies andnone of them have tags or
(15:19):
licenses?
How is that any different thanthe good old boy ranchers who
never bought a license in theirlife?
Jeremy DeVries (15:26):
No, it's a.
It's a, it's a fair question,other than when you're on your
own private property, that's onething, but when you start using
public resources, in otherwords public rivers, for example
, or public hunting areas,there's matter of fact, just
this last week there's a bigdeal kind of up in the
northeastern part of the statewhere a couple commissioners
(15:46):
fish, wildlife and commissionershad started to basically say
they wanted to leave hunting notopen for non-residents for two
weeks and give, like theresidents, their own special two
week season.
It's kind of still being talkedabout right now in the fish,
wildlife and parks commission,but I guess their whole thing up
there was that they had dogtrainers from Texas coming in by
(16:07):
the truckloads, guys bringinghundreds of dogs, you know 25,
20, 25 different pro trainers upthere basically chasing around
all of the sharp tail and hunsup in that northeastern corner
of the state for the entiremonth of July, the entire month
of August and then right intothe season.
So basically local residentswould want to go out and shoot
their, you know, shoot sharptail, grouse or huns on the
(16:28):
first of September and all thebirds are like educated and
terrified and hard to hard tolocate.
We're in a normal year, thefirst of the opening days of the
season, it would be easy for alocal family to go out and hunt.
And I guess, to answer yourquestion more directly, all of
us that live in pay taxes in thestate of Montana, I think have
(16:51):
a vested interest in the qualityof the hunting and the quality
of the fishing that's here and Isee it as a big, large resource
that we need to make surecontinues to have value.
And I think that local peoplethat live here have a lot more
vested interest in how thatvalue is determined.
(17:12):
You know what is?
What is the value of a dadbeing able to still take his kid
and go out and find a bull elkor to go out on the weekend and
find a spot to shoot ducks?
And I think we all I thinklocal people have a much more
feel, a much more stronger, amuch stronger responsibility to
protect that than someone, say,from Florida to us or Texas or
(17:32):
wherever, who just bought a60,000 acre ranch and comes and
does whatever he wants.
Colter DeVries (17:37):
Well and this has come up on the podcast
before that that is extractive.
It's like tourism.
Tourism dollars do not.
They're not vested.
As you mentioned the localtaxpayer, who's an avid
outdoorsman, he is vested forthe long term.
He has an alignment of interesttourism and transactional
(17:58):
hunting, recreation.
We'll call it that is there'sthere's a problem there, there's
some conflict, because we wantthe tourism dollars here in
Montana, but we also want toprotect that resource for and we
want to enhance that resourcebecause it is not just
personally valuable to many ofyou outdoorsmen, but it's
(18:20):
economically valuable to thetaxpayers.
So where are we at today in thestate of Montana, we've got this
, we've got these coalitionsgoing on where you've got the
public land advocates and I I'monly saying public land because
you did I call it governmentland.
There is no such thing aspublic land.
(18:40):
I like that.
Public doesn't own shit.
The government owns it.
The public has no right to it.
The government is an entityseparate from the public, anyway
.
So we got government landadvocates.
We've got we've got outfitterswho are guaranteed licenses, and
maybe you can talk to me aboutsome of the proprietary rights
(19:04):
that protect your business.
How do you get a lease in theForest Service, so no one else
can compete with you.
Or how do you get proprietaryrights to the Bighorn River?
So you guys have your camp inHelena and then you got private
land owners who have their campand they want to monetize that
with the Bighorn River and theywant to monetize that with
access fees.
(19:24):
And then you've got out ofstate hunters another coalition
who are willing to pay $350,000for a Bighorn sheep hunt in
Montana.
Jeremy DeVries (19:33):
Right, just the other day.
Colter DeVries (19:34):
Yeah, yeah.
Where.
Where do we stand with all thatand how?
How is it not working for you,the outfitter?
Jeremy DeVries (19:42):
Well, I mean, obviously it is working for me.
My business is this is my 30thseason.
We're, you know, successfulPeople who come, and the
majority of my clients are fromout of state.
Colter DeVries (19:53):
Um, of course I mean yeah, yeah, because if
you're a Montana resident,you're just going to load up the
F-150 and go out and do it.
Yeah.
Jeremy DeVries (20:01):
Yeah, exactly as far as the deer and the elk and
the sheep and stuff like that.
I don't do any big gameoutfitting and I don't do it on
purpose.
So there used to be outfittersponsored tags.
The state voted those out.
Oh gosh, it's been a while,eight years ago or something.
I'm again, I'm not a big gameoutfitter, so I don't know the
exact details but the outfittersbasically don't have sponsored
(20:22):
tags anymore, so that theirclients have to draw just like
any anyone else from.
Okay, Since we moved to thepoint system, there's no
guaranteed tags for theoutfitter license as far as I
know and, like I said, I'm not abig game outfitter, I'm just
kind of more on the bird side,uh, and so so I can't really
speak to that as as well.
But I can tell you this um,when there's other out of state
(20:46):
interests that come in andpurchase property, uh, and if,
if it's Joe Smith comes in andhe buys a property and him and
his family come out and theyutilize, as you called it, a
government property like theBighorn River, the Yellowstone,
the Madison or the Jefferson orany of those rivers, they're not
(21:08):
doing a whole much more impactthan the family that was in that
ranch before them.
Right?
The concern that I am startingto see is people who purchase
these properties and then theycome in and they open up a
business or a club or a huntingclub of some sort or a
syndication.
Colter DeVries (21:27):
Which is why we're here to talk, right?
And then what ends?
Jeremy DeVries (21:32):
up happening is the use that they are putting on
the property is more than whatwas on the property previously.
Basically and that's where I'mstarting to see some conflicts
because you got local dads Ilive in Billings Montana you got
a local dad and his kid whoused to hunt in a certain
stretch of the Yellowstone River, let's say.
And now this hunting club hascome in next door, like right
(21:55):
next door, like riverfront rightnext door, and they're putting
10, 12 different boats on thewater.
Now this dad goes out and he'sfrustrated because he can't take
his kid hunting anymore, whenhe used to do it all the time
because people owned the ranchbefore.
It was just, you know, jimSmith and his kid and that was
it.
So I see that as a hurdle in,you know, in the future.
Colter DeVries (22:17):
The overuse of the public resource or, you know
, public good.
Let's call wildlife a publicgood.
The overuse of that because ofdevelopment, because if you
develop this hunting club orthis syndication, there's going
to be 20x the amount of pressureon that fishery or that
(22:38):
migratory pathway than there wasfor eons prior.
Jeremy DeVries (22:42):
Yeah, correct, and I guess and I'm one of those
guys I kind of agree with youthat if I mean if somewhat
libertarian issue, if someoneowns a piece of property, I have
no interest in that propertything.
It's nothing I can.
But when it is a collectivegovernment property or common
good, then that's where thequestions start to become raised
(23:04):
is how much pressure are youactually putting on?
It's something that I policemyself on and have for a long
time.
I'm actually kind of proud ofwhat we've done and a lot of
people don't know that aboutoutfitters.
They don't know that outfitters, especially in the bird side I
don't want to speak on the biggame side as much because they
are definitely very differentLike one bull elk doesn't look
(23:24):
like another bull elk and looklike another bull elk, but every
pheasant looks like a pheasantand every duck looks like a duck
and clients don't care.
But when you start talkingabout a big jampoel elk, then
they're going not that one, notthat one, but I want that one.
People lose their mind and theydo silly, they do silly shit
Like they, like they go crazy.
And that's where I think a lotof the anti alt fitter sentiment
(23:48):
comes from is not necessarilyfrom birds and fish guys, but a
lot from the big game side.
Colter DeVries (23:53):
Well, I'm.
One of my libertarian beliefsis self police, policing and to
have your industry self policeand regulate itself for, for
reputation, for credibility, forlongevity, for adding value.
And I don't know if yououtfitters are just spinning
this or giving me a good pitch,but you're the second one I've
(24:13):
talked to bird.
Last one was upland game bird,your migratory foul.
But they have said look, whenwe bag out, when we reach our
daily limit, if we have a person, a client, shoot another one,
they're done.
And we turn them in For sure,absolutely.
(24:34):
And they said that we ride herdon that very, very stringently,
absolutely.
So maybe you guys must be doinga good job.
You're either doing a good jobor you're selling me on that.
You're doing a good job?
No, we do Well it.
Jeremy DeVries (24:48):
I guess our livelihood depends on it, right,
right.
So we can't we can't playaround with rules.
So you know we have lifejackets and PFDs in the boat at
all times.
Make sure you got licenses foryour guides, or for your guides
and for your clients.
You make sure they don't haveplugs.
They have plugs in their gunswhen they're shooting waterfowl.
Make sure they're not shootinglead.
We make sure they don't shootover limit.
(25:08):
Make sure they don't shoot anextra bird of certain species.
You know there's a lot of thingsthat go into what, what we do
on a daily basis to make surethat our people are falling
within the general guidelinesthat you know.
The state is the state and thefederal government is set, but
it's bigger than that, like it's.
It's bigger than that I waswhen I was a young guy, just
(25:28):
getting into the waterfall game.
I had a friend of mine and weused to help waterfowl together
for snow geese in South Dakotaand we were talking about what
we were going to do and what wewere going to become and how we
were going to make it make ourfortune in the outfitting, in
outfitting world right and hetook one path and I took the
exact opposite path and I thinkboth of us have been successful.
Maybe he's more so than me insome regards and me more so than
(25:51):
him in other regards.
So he has a giant place in theSouth and they have gotten to
where they own 15, 20,000 acresand they they manage and ranch
and farm not ranch, but manageand farm and run water on a
bunch of property and they takeup to 60 guests a day 60, 60.
And so he's generating a lot ofrevenue for himself.
(26:14):
So he's become very successfulin that regard.
And some of their hunts aregreat and some of them are in
the middle and some of them arenot so great, but they're just
turning.
They're turning 60 people.
My business right here.
I did the exact opposite.
I only have myself and twoother boats, and so we take six
to eight people, maybe nine onthe most.
So we're putting two boats,three boats, on the river extra,
(26:38):
and not every day and not everyday of the season.
And the way we looked at it Ilooked at it, I guess is that I
wanted every client that came tohave a great opportunity to at
least have a chance to shoottheir birds.
Could I have sold 30, you know30 guests and put out you know
15 boats or 20, I could have.
I could have.
(27:00):
But it's just the wrong thing todo for the, for the river that
I work on.
I know that the more pressurethat I put on that river, the
more difficult it becomes, notonly for me, but it becomes for
that local dad who lives here inBillings and wants to take his
kid hunting too, and I justdidn't feel right doing it.
So when you talk about selfpolicing, I don't think a lot of
people really understand thatoutfitters do a lot of that
(27:20):
policing on purpose, not onlyfor their own benefit but for
the benefit of the kids thatthey got and the families that
they got to live with every day.
Like I come back to Billings, Ivolunteer baseball coach and if
I'm out there screwing things up, I can run myself into people
who I did the wrong thing around, or I said something different,
or I pushed a guy out of a spot, or you'll see him at the post
(27:41):
office, exactly, exactly, or Istole his spot or I you know
what.
Whatever the case may be, thelocal people have, I feel, have
much feel a more larger,stronger obligation to take care
of that resource, wheresometimes I don't know that
people who purchase propertyespecially this is going to
sound awful, but especially guysthat come from the south where
(28:03):
it's got so difficult for themto find places to hunt anymore I
don't know that they come withthat same level of concern for
the local resident as a localoutfitter or a local hunter does
.
Colter DeVries (28:16):
Yeah, they come to be self serving and
extractive, correct?
If I'm going to summarize maybe, maybe put you know you're fine
, put you in a box here.
To summarize what I hear ofyour feelings is that they come
up here to be completely on thetake self serving and extractive
.
It's an extractive resource tothem?
(28:37):
I guess no, but but I mean theway.
Jeremy DeVries (28:41):
If you're summarizing it like that
strongly, I guess I don't feelthat it's that strong,
particularly if it's just oneguy, right, like if it's, if
it's Coulter's family that comesand buys this place and he
hangs out with his family.
That's, that's not really whatI'm talking about.
Like, I'm not worried aboutthat guy.
That guy is just like me andyou and anyone else.
(29:01):
Right, he's coming to free.
Yeah, he's free.
He wants to purchase a piece ofproperty and live on it and
enjoy it.
And what's starting to happennow is these larger
conglomerations of people,people who pay $300,000,
$400,000 a year to be a memberin a club.
The club purchases property allacross America and then they
get invited to these pieces ofproperty to hunt big game or to
(29:23):
hunt docks or to hunt pheasantsor wherever South Dakota has a
bunch of them.
And now you're putting pressurefrom pressure from other places
into the local areas and it'smaking it difficult for local
dads to go out with their kids,and that genuinely concerns me.
I guess, is what I'm saying.
Colter DeVries (29:41):
Yeah, because you sounds like you have seen
them come in and just it's likeSherman's march through the
South, where it's just scorchedearth behind them.
Jeremy DeVries (29:51):
It is, it really is, and it's not their fault.
But they don't usually don'tknow what they're doing either,
right?
So next thing you know, you'vegot just boats driving around
all the way along on a publicriver, or you've got trucks
inside by sides driving up anddown all the old logging roads
all day long, everywhere,because they're they're trying
to figure it out and they'retrying to learn it, and that I.
That part I understand.
But while they're trying tolearn it, while they're trying
(30:14):
to figure it out, it's justbasically screwed it up for the
people who are already there andalready know what's going on,
and it's going to become a bigchallenge for the state, I think
.
Colter DeVries (30:25):
Well, I was just about to say this, this
experience of yours, I don'tthink is a phenomena.
This $300,000 hunting club, theelite from the south coming up
here buying Montana ranches,essentially buying the resources
that are supplied by thoseranches, that's not gonna change
(30:47):
.
No, it's not.
It's only gonna actually getbigger.
So where do we go from here?
Jeremy DeVries (30:52):
So it's a great question.
It's a question that I thinkMontana I think Montana
residents and Montanans andrealtors and outfitters and
everyone is gonna have to kindof struggle with for the next,
you know, for the rest of ourgeneration and probably our
kids' generations too.
But I know that you, in nineyears, are gonna have a kid that
(31:13):
you're gonna wanna take onsomewhere and you want it to be
just as good for him as it waswhen you were 12.
And I know that right now youdon't probably think it feels
like it felt to you when youwere 12.
Oh, definitely not, because Idon't right.
So I'm 50 and when I was a kid Icould go anywhere I wanted,
shoot anything I wanted, huntanything I wanted, and all I had
(31:35):
to do is make sure that Ididn't make sure that I took
care of the relationship thatgot me where I was at.
Like I couldn't piss off MrJones when I went on to his farm
, or I couldn't leave his gatesopen or I couldn't even whatever
.
And now it's like I gotta thinkabout paying Mr Jones and I
gotta have insurance, so then incase something weird happens,
and then I gotta worry aboutSteve and Bill and John, who are
(31:56):
also trying to get on to MrJones's property, and it's just
changed so much and it's gonnachange again in our lifetimes,
and so at some point a lot ofpeople are gonna have to make
different, I guess decisionsabout what the value of those
public goods really are.
Colter DeVries (32:15):
Well, and it's not Farmer Jones's farm anymore.
He sold out.
It's a fair point.
So I mean these dynamics areagain.
We talk about the rapid changethat has happened to Montana in
the last four years.
This rapid change is, I mean,it's been coming.
It's kind of like going brokeslowly than all at once.
(32:37):
But what's happened the lastfour years seems like a
compounding amplification ofwhat was in the developments for
the last 40 years.
And now it's on a trajectory tokeep that compounding growth
and we just don't know how we'regonna adjust and I mean I have
(32:57):
to.
So, Jeremy, I have to adjust mybusiness to that.
Sure, I have to appeal to bothMr Jones to get him to sell his
farm to this duck membership,this multi-state duck membership
, and I have to find a way toappeal to that billionaire buyer
(33:18):
, talk his language and earntrust rapport with him, while
also Mr Farmer Jones, Sure.
And so we have to adjust ourbusinesses if we wanna stay
alive.
Jeremy DeVries (33:31):
Sure, For sure I just under like earlier, before
we were on this podcast, youhad asked me you're like well,
wouldn't you see that big giantduck club as an opportunity, as
a way to make money?
Maybe you go guide for thatduck club or whatever.
And it's a legitimate question,because maybe they would have
loved to have had local, localguide, knowledge about where
(33:55):
they're at and where they'regoing.
But I also know the resourcethat I'm on and I understand
that it can't maybe take some ofthe pressure that an operation
of that large is really gonnaput on that resource, and I
wouldn't let myself get that big.
So I sure as heck aren't gonnahelp someone else get bigger, if
(34:15):
that makes any sense.
So when you guys were sellingthe property, sell them to Jim
and Mary the couple.
Yeah, that'd be great.
And I feel for the people fromthe South, because Arkansas,
louisiana, texas, I mean, youcan't find public property,
public land to go hunt onanymore.
It's all been either overrun bymillions and millions and
(34:37):
millions of people, or it's beenpurchased and you can only, or
least, and so that no one canhunt on that either.
So I understand how people aremoving here and hunting Colorado
and Idaho and not even Colorado.
So much Colorado is pretty badtoo.
But Idaho, wyoming, the Dakotasand certainly now Montana, and
you hear of hundreds andhundreds of people, thousands,
(34:59):
really going to Canada andhunting Alberta and Saskatchewan
.
I think that whole swath of themiddle of the country is kind
of in that similar to leastpopulated area and that's, and
so people are drawn here forbasically no other reason that
there's just no people or fewerpeople.
And they like that, they likethat feeling of freedom.
Colter DeVries (35:17):
And Texas is all pay for play Right and here to
the larger degree it is not.
You still got to buy a tag.
Jeremy DeVries (35:25):
Yeah.
Well and I'm starting to seepeople who are paying lease fees
and leases and properties.
Colter DeVries (35:33):
Let's talk about that.
How do you protect yourbusiness?
What is proprietary about whatyou do to where you know that
you're not going to get undercutbackdoor to have their rug
pulled out from underneath you?
What is, how do you secure whatyou have?
Jeremy DeVries (35:48):
That's a good question.
When people call me and they'reinterested in coming to Montana
and they want to shoot ducks, Iam ending up interviewing them
just as much as they'reinterviewing me.
So I ask questions like do youhave your own boat?
Do you go to Canada on your ownand freelance hunt?
Do you hunt on your own?
Do you hunt back home with yourbodies, and questions like that
(36:12):
.
Local people from Bozeman callme a lot.
I get a fair number of callsfrom Yellowstone Club and people
do you have your own boat?
Nope.
Colter DeVries (36:20):
I wouldn't consider Bozeman local.
But go on, and especially notYellowstone Club, but do tell
more.
Jeremy DeVries (36:29):
So we have to be careful, like we have to be
careful about who we can takeout, especially on public land.
And I do have some privateproperty and we do have some
leases, and some of those leasesare ones that are like you just
said.
I mean, it's us protecting ourbutt so that we make sure we
have something to do, and thedifference with that is that
(36:50):
every year, I take four to eightdays a season on those private
leases and I give them away.
I let some local dad take hiskid.
I have a soft spot for kids.
After all of your followershear this.
I'm gonna get all these callsfrom these dads, oh for sure,
for sure.
But I do.
I do have a soft spot for a dadand his kid and I try to
(37:13):
protect them local dads andtheir kids as much as I can.
And so if they call me up andsay, hey, I got nowhere to hunt,
or I got screwed by this orthis and this happened, I'll
just say, hey, here's a spot, goahead and go.
And they say, well, what do Iowe you?
Because I know you lease it, Isay you don't owe me anything,
just go have fun and enjoy it.
And sometimes that doesn't workeither, because then they call
me every year and I gotta becareful with that too, and so
(37:36):
it's always a little bit of abalancing game.
Colter DeVries (37:38):
You're preaching to the choir.
Coming from a family who letevery first time hunter go out
on their place, that ever wanted, never said no to anyone and
those kids grew up and keptcoming back and coming back and
leaving gates open.
So you do have leases.
You have some private leases.
Those are proprietary, they'reexclusive, they're limited,
(38:01):
they're restricted.
You could probably get, if youwere doing upland game bird you
can get an exclusive on BLM.
You probably could.
Jeremy DeVries (38:09):
You know, I don't know For bird.
That's a great question.
I don't know.
Colter DeVries (38:12):
Maybe Forest Service, maybe some state, there
is some state land that you canguide on?
Yeah, Yep, and you'd be theonly guide on that, correct?
Jeremy DeVries (38:21):
I think.
So I don't know Like I don't atleast-, what about the?
Colter DeVries (38:24):
rivers, though.
Is there a limit to how many ofyou bastard outfitters can be
on the river screwing it up forthe rest of us?
As far as I know, there isn't,so it can just be congested and
clogged all to hell, with youguys making money while us
taxpayers are subsidizing yourincome.
Jeremy DeVries (38:42):
It sure could, it sure could.
But to your point I just.
I think most outfitters arefairly responsible, actually,
like there are certain stretchesof the river the Yellowstone
for example that might see aboat a day, like one boat a day,
and there are other stretchesthe afterband, the big horn, the
first three miles of theMissouri River, for example, the
(39:04):
upper Madison where the fishing, the fish numbers, don't seem
to be as affected by the amountof traffic that's on it.
That's there.
The fish are able to sustainmore pressure in certain spots
and I think that gets lost a lotin the discussion about how
quote unquote overcrowded aplace is.
(39:24):
People are like we're onlygonna let five boats.
Well, yeah, and that in thisarea maybe only five boats is
what should be there, but inother spots you could have 50
boats and it's not a big deal.
All 50 of them have a fish onand they're all doing great, and
so that does happen.
Colter DeVries (39:40):
So, as Montana's population continues to grow,
and it will forever grow, and asthe interest in Montana grows,
you're gonna see more placeslike the upper Madison.
And what's the boat float nearShields River, shields Valley?
Yeah, it's on the Yellowstone.
Yeah, what's the big boat floatthat's restricted, where you
have to get a permit?
(40:01):
Oh, the Smith, the Smith River.
Yeah, the Smith, that is.
You're gonna see stretches ofcertain rivers in certain areas
become more regulated.
Jeremy DeVries (40:10):
Sure, and some of them probably should, as much
as I absolutely hate to saythat because I don't like the
rules and I think people cangenuinely do the right.
In the past people havebasically done the right thing.
But there's sections of theSmith that aren't any wider than
your kitchen.
So I mean it probably does needlike a little bit of hey, you
(40:33):
guys need to take turns here.
Four boats get pushed into abig fast corner that's literally
the size of your kitchen.
It can be a little bitdangerous.
And here's the other thingabout the Smith.
The Smith is 70 miles long andthere's no takeouts in between,
like you can't drive your pickupdown there, you can't get an
ambulance in there.
I mean it'd be helicopter only.
If you want to get in.
It's a three day minimum andthat's if you're hauling ass to
(40:55):
get through that thing.
It's more like a five day floatto go through the Smith.
So I can understand why there'skind of permitting on the Smith
.
Colter DeVries (41:02):
And you have to shit in a bucket.
So you've done it, no that'sthe reason I have not done it.
No, I didn't want to be stuckin a small boat with a bunch of
people for three days.
That's.
Jeremy DeVries (41:17):
That sounds like torture to do it.
Yes, that sounds horrible.
Colter DeVries (41:21):
Ah, you'd love it.
Jeremy DeVries (41:23):
Man, the Smith is a great trip.
You should.
Every Montana should go.
Do the Smith at least once.
It's just a cool, really coolscenic wilderness adventure and
there's a bunch of great guidesthat make the trip easy.
You know you'll float all daylong and they cook for you, I've
been told, clean for you andpick up camp and you just get to
fish and drink beers and havefun and it's really fun.
Colter DeVries (41:46):
I've been told don't do it with a feuding
bickering couple in theirfifties.
It'll just be miserable foreveryone.
Jeremy DeVries (41:53):
It's very true, you get locked in for five days
and you're in tight quarters.
Colter DeVries (41:59):
So where is your industry, the outfitters?
Jeremy DeVries (42:03):
So, we're just.
I have a partner of mine namedMack.
We just purchased a lodge onthe Big Horn River right near
Two Legons Access.
It's brand new, just happenedthis January.
Colter DeVries (42:13):
Congratulations.
Thanks, man.
Jeremy DeVries (42:16):
Why didn't you use me?
My father-in-law was a realtorand he did a great job and it's
a cool piece of property Used tobe last stand outfitters.
So it was an outfitter beforeus.
He did mostly big game stuff.
We're just kind of doing birdsand fish.
We're primarily going to be aduck place.
(42:36):
Like I said, we're just payingmoney to put our clients at
other places and it's asubstantial amount of income for
the local area.
It's like 40 grand a year.
We're paying for people just tosleep.
So it's a good little chunk ofchange coming into the local
economy by having us around andnow we're pulling that money out
of the local economy and payingourselves.
(42:57):
But they'll still be buyinggroceries and they'll still be
going to get gas and licensesand all of the stuff and we
still will do day trips too.
So some of the stuff that atthe motels and hotels they'll
still be there and we do have.
I had one today.
A guy said hey, I liked wherewe were standing before.
Can we stay there?
Sure, you bet.
And so some of those Airbnb'swill still have revenue from us
(43:18):
too.
Colter DeVries (43:19):
Why didn't you buy my listing two years ago?
Down in the Big Horn Valleythere's Garrison Stoker Resort.
Jeremy DeVries (43:25):
Yeah, it's a little further south than I want
it to be.
Okay, this is a good place.
It's a good place.
Do you sell that?
Did you sell it or did someoneelse sell it?
Yeah, you sold it.
Colter DeVries (43:35):
But where's your industry at with what
improvements need to be made tothe outfitter business in
Montana?
How do you help you?
Jeremy DeVries (43:42):
Well, years ago the outfitting business was
really, really regulated to thepoint where it was getting to be
too much.
I thought we had.
You would get.
Say, for example, I got aticket for having three life
jackets instead of four, andfour people in my boat and I
only had three life jackets,what I normally carry in my
drift boat.
I had a fourth person that day,forgot all about it, and I got
(44:04):
a $40 ticket from the state ofMontana.
So the state said Jeremy,here's your $40 ticket.
At the time, the board ofoutfitters there is a board of
outfitters in the state, theboard of outfitters find me $400
.
Oh my goodness.
And they put me on probationfor a year.
So and I said this is crap,it's double jeopardy.
Like I had all these argumentsat the time and I had one of the
(44:26):
guys his name was Daniels fromthe board.
He calls me up, he says Jeremy,I understand, man, it's a $40
ticket.
The state doesn't see it as ahuge deal.
We, I said, yeah, you guysmultiplied it 10 times.
That's the fines we get is 10times.
And he goes well, you got tothink of it more as, like,
you're a professional athleteand when a professional athlete
gets in trouble for you know,whatever they get in trouble
(44:47):
conduct that they get in troublein the NFL the team finds them
and the NFL finds them, andthat's the way we like to look
at the outfitting industry.
I don't think a lot of peoplein the state know that
outfitters are pretty well,pretty well regulated and the
state has their thumb on us andthey know what we're doing.
All the time Recent historyWe've gone the opposite
(45:08):
direction, or we've changeddirectors and changed government
and it's gotten to wherethey're regulating us almost not
at all.
So now what you've got isyou've got guys who don't know
anything about birds, a bunch ofcowboys, 100%, 100%.
There's a bunch of guys whogenuinely have no clue what
they're talking about,pretending to be outfitters.
They made new rules that youcould, instead of your 100 days
(45:31):
worth of experience, you couldbuy out 50 of those, but you
could take a training course toget credit for some of those in
a classroom.
And those are the some of thethings that I don't like.
What I think the outfittingbusiness really could use is
somewhere right in the middle,where we have regulate those
things that are really criticaland really important and
(45:52):
eliminate a lot of the stuffthat eliminate that.
Making it so easy, that makingentry so easy that you get
people who are just notqualified to be doing what
they're doing.
Colter DeVries (46:02):
So it can't be all cowboys and it can't be
California level regulation youjust nailed that.
Jeremy DeVries (46:12):
Somewhere in the middle, you know, just a nice
professional professional groupof people is really good.
What do?
Colter DeVries (46:17):
you love most about this business?
What keeps you going?
What is your why or is, it's,might seem.
This is how you're why.
Jeremy DeVries (46:28):
So that's a great question, because it's
genuinely for me what feeds mysoul.
And, in other words, when I putmy boat in in the water in the
morning and it's cold and it'sdark, and you drive down the
middle of wide open river andit's dead silent, other than
your motor running and and thesun is just starting to come up
(46:50):
the fog is just starting to riseoff the river.
That is that it's that minute,that, and sometimes it only
lasts for 10 minutes or fiveminutes or whatever.
Or it's that the end of youknow the end of the day and
you're sitting around a campfirewith a bunch of guys laughing
and and you're having a whiskeyor whatever and you're talking
about something that happenedduring the day and you see the
(47:12):
smile on that guy's face that hegoes I did this today and I did
that today, and those are thethings that, like, really feed
my, my soul.
It makes me happy to be aliveand that that's that's what I
live for.
Just those those minutes, thoseminutes.
Not the money, it's not theanything else, it's just that
(47:34):
little 10 minute section.
The cool part about it is I usedto say this when I was fishing
and guiding the greatest part ofthe day is the first three or
strokes.
In the morning you put the boatin.
It's like a big chaos at theboat ramp.
There's a bunch of people there.
You put the boat in, you've gotyour two dudes ready to go and
they got their rods and theiryou know orvus hats and gear and
all their shit on and you'relike, and you pull away from
(47:56):
that boat ramp and you make thefirst two strokes and everything
is just exciting, likeeverything is like we're going
to catch them, we're going tohave fun, it's going to be a
great day like that little 10second, you know, period of time
is spectacular.
And then it just usually spiralsinto shit and you're tangled
and you know, and the wind blowsand people bitch and whatever,
(48:18):
but that those first three, orstrokes, or that little thing
when the sun rises in themorning, like just those little
minutes, are the that's, that'swhat it does.
Colter DeVries (48:28):
That's.
That is so funny, because I'mreading the biography of
Stonewall Jackson right now.
So what you just described withthat the launch, and how, how
expectations, pride, joy,emotions, everything's on a high
in the civil war leading up tothe civil war that's how the
(48:49):
South was, and I mean peoplewere just thinking there's going
to be a 12 day war.
They were going to leave theirtown and come back as heroes in
a week and girls were kissingall the boys on their way out.
Boys were just feeling likethey were 10 feet tall and 80
proof and they're like, oh, thisis going to be, this is going
to be easy, this is awesome.
I'm so jacked, I couldn't, Icouldn't want anything more, and
(49:13):
then it just it turned into thecivil war.
That's funny how how yourfeelings about boat launch is
the same.
Yeah.
Jeremy DeVries (49:23):
Well, the boat launch, the, the drive in the
boat in the morning.
You know the other one, thatthe other one.
That's really cool, man, andyou need to come out and do this
with me sometime.
Colter DeVries (49:30):
For free, for sure, okay, for sure.
Jeremy DeVries (49:33):
I'll get the money some other, some other way
.
There's a.
There's a.
There's a minute when you driveyour boat to a certain spot and
maybe it's a little backchannel or whatever, and you and
everybody's hoffing and puffingand moving and you're setting
up your blind and you're movingyour gear and you're getting
ready to duck hunt and you, youjust walk out into the water and
it's completely silent exceptyou hear that that decoy hit the
(49:55):
water and just splash down, youknow, and you've set 12, 20
decoys and you walk back up, yousit down in the blind and I
usually, you know, turned to allmy guys anybody need a cup of
coffee this morning and you sitthere for the next 10 minutes
before you can legally shoot.
And that 10 minutes beforelegal shooting light is probably
(50:17):
my favorite thing in the world.
Everything is just silent.
You're watching the sun kind ofjust slowly creep up.
There's usually ducks trying toland in your decoys at that
time and no one's screwing it upby shooting.
We're just watching andenjoying a cup of coffee.
Dude, it's like it's a, it's aspecial thing, it's a cool thing
.
Colter DeVries (50:37):
That's your feeling.
Yeah Well, Jeremy DeFries, howcan people find you?
Where are you at?
Jeremy DeVries (50:43):
So, uh, my business, um is that
Riverrockoutfitterscom, and youcan see us on Instagram and
Facebook.
Probably the best way to lookat us, though, actually is
Instagram, uh, and that'sRiverrock Outfitters.
On Instagram.
It's, um, it'll give you thebest insight as to what we do on
a daily basis.
It's very, um I don't know whatyou call it, but it's lots of
(51:04):
videos of us in the blind.
It's actually hunting, doingwhat we do on a daily basis.
It's not just like apromotional bunch of garbage.
You'll actually just get to seewhat we actually are doing and
you get to kind of meet who weare and what we're like.
Colter DeVries (51:17):
So, Well, thanks for coming on the Ranch
Investor podcast.
Jeremy DeVries (51:21):
Hey, thanks for having me man, I appreciate it.
Colter DeVries (51:23):
And thank you to anyone who is taking an
interest in outfitting andwanted to share this, please do.
Please share this with yourfriends and tune into the next
episode.
Thank, you.
We at Ranch Investor are veryinterested in hearing your
thoughts, your opinion, yourwants, desires, hopes and dreams
.
Everything on Ranchsyndications, ranch investment,
(51:47):
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Colter DeVries (00:10):
Welcome to the Ranch Investor podcast.
I am your three-year host,Colter DeVries, accredited land
consultant with the Realtor LandInstitute and accredited farm
manager with ASFMRA.
Today, I'm excited to bring youthe experts on a weekly basis
to hear what's trending, what'shappening, what's going on in
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Colter DeVries (00:45):
Welcome everyone to the Ranch Investor podcast.
Today I have on Jeremy DeVriesDeFries.
We don't even know how to sayour own last name, do we?
Jeremy DeVries (00:55):
Yeah, it's.
Lots of people pronounce itdifferent ways.
No one has a chance to spell it, no matter what.
Colter DeVries (01:01):
And I end up just telling people DeVries,
delta, echo Victor, romeo, india, echo Sierra, you've practiced
that several times oh yeah, well, I'm on calls of customer
service a lot.
So if anyone thinks I'mpracticing nepotism by having
you on here friends and family,we are related probably.
Jeremy DeVries (01:25):
Yeah, my mom, who kind of does some genealogy
stuff, and your aunt.
Colter DeVries (01:31):
Adele, Yep Adele , who does genealogy as well.
Jeremy DeVries (01:33):
They had talked back and forth about some of the
stuff and they tracked ourfamilies your family and my
family back to the borderbetween Germany and Holland.
Colter DeVries (01:43):
Okay.
Jeremy DeVries (01:43):
And that our families lived as close as four
miles apart from.
Colter DeVries (01:46):
I did not hear that.
That's news to me.
I didn't know that.
Jeremy DeVries (01:49):
Yeah, and then also some of our families cross
paths through South Dakota andIllinois, I believe, kind of
Chicago area, I think.
Colter DeVries (01:59):
Around 1883 or 81.
Yeah, long time ago.
Jeremy DeVries (02:03):
But never could make a connection actual
connection.
That's why I never could figureit out that we were actually,
you know, a connection.
So they just lost records orwhatever.
Colter DeVries (02:11):
So and you hail from the northern part of the
state.
Yeah, probably five hours away.
Jeremy DeVries (02:17):
Yeah, six Yep.
Little town called Sunburst,montana.
It's right up on the Canadianborder, eight miles from.
Colter DeVries (02:21):
Canada.
So so I am kind of being anepotist in this regard.
That you're probably related,but the reason I have you on is
you are a outfitter.
Jeremy DeVries (02:32):
I am.
Colter DeVries (02:33):
And what do you do?
What do you outfit?
Jeremy DeVries (02:35):
So I've been an outfitter for a long time.
I sell health insurance fulltime, actually large group
health insurance, and I kind ofhave a part time outfitting
business.
That I've been doing for thelast, well, for the last 30
years.
So I guide for birds and fish.
I don't do any big games, Idon't do big.
I don't do birds or or, excuseme, I don't do elk or deer or
(02:55):
anything like that, just birdsand fish, mostly waterfall.
Colter DeVries (02:58):
Blast and cast Kind of On the Big Horn River.
Jeremy DeVries (03:01):
Kind of we don't do a lot of blast and casts
Like that.
That term has become like akind of a common one in the
industry.
But I don't do them becausewhen you try to fish and hunt in
the same day you end up kind ofdoing both of them Half-assed.
So I kind of we'll more like ona particular day we'll focus on
(03:21):
ducks for one day and thenwe'll fish the next day and then
we'll focus on ducks again thenext day.
So we'll go hunt, fish hunt, orwe'll go fish, hunt, fish or
something like that.
But rarely do we try to mixthem together.
Colter DeVries (03:32):
Now this, this part time outfitting, is this
like part time real estate,where you can put on a seminar
around the country that hey,make $5,000 a month from real
estate.
You don't even need a license,you can do it part time.
Jeremy DeVries (03:46):
No, I'm licensed outfitter and have been since
1997.
And I got four or five guidesthat work for me.
I don't do a lot of the actualday to day guiding I still do on
the duck, on the duck side Istill do.
But my full-time job sellinginsurance most of the time, but
this is a thing that feeds mysoul.
(04:07):
You know like it makes me happyto go out there and spend a day
with people chasing ducks orcatching fish, and a lot of my
insurance clients have nowbecome like outfitting clients
too, right, so it kind of workswell together as this isn't an
attack right off, though.
Colter DeVries (04:22):
I mean it's an actual economic going concern.
Right, correct, okay, it isBecause you just bought a lodge.
I did what went into thedecision making of buying a
lodge?
Jeremy DeVries (04:33):
Well, we were.
I have a partner on the lodge.
His name is Mack, great guy.
He's been my head guide foreight years or something like
that, and we've been hiring abunch of people or hiring a
bunch of locations, airbnb typestuff and had been sending our
money to these Airbnb's to putall of our clients in.
So either Airbnb's or hotels orwhatever.
(04:55):
And the number was starting toget kind of substantial.
So Mack and I sat down and said, hey, why don't we pay
ourselves?
So we bought a lodge so that wecan basically put our own
clients into our own buildinginstead of paying that money to
someone else.
Colter DeVries (05:08):
So so you were internalizing an operating
expense?
We were Okay.
Jeremy DeVries (05:13):
I like that you talk so technically.
Colter DeVries (05:14):
I try to Now.
Mack is a guide.
Yeah, yep, from myunderstanding of having a real
estate license, can he become anassociate outfitter?
Can you guys?
Would you be a supervisingoutfitter?
Is the structure much like realestate where I'm the super
supervising broker.
(05:35):
I can have associate brokerssign off on deals for me?
Jeremy DeVries (05:39):
Yeah, so it's a great question.
So in the state of Montana youcan get a guides license from
the state In order to get thatguy licensed, so you have to
have an outfitter sign off.
So it's very similar to anagent broker kind of
relationship.
So basically I have anoutfitters license.
Mack is a licensed guide thatworks for me.
He'll probably get his ownoutfitters license at some point
.
He's I mean, he's he's morethan capable, he's, he's
(06:00):
outstanding, but it does workthat way.
So licensed guide in the state.
The only difference between aguide and an outfitter is that a
guide can't actually chargemoney, only an outfitter can
charge money.
So the outfitter has to collectall the money and then they
hire guides to do some of thework underneath them.
Colter DeVries (06:16):
Basically, Okay, so so Matt could become an
outfitter, and would it still beyour license?
Would it still be?
Jeremy DeVries (06:25):
with you, then he would get his own license.
We would just practice together, okay.
Colter DeVries (06:29):
And so the guides, are they paid by you, or
they paid by commission, orpaid by?
The outfitter paid by theoutfitter.
Is it a percentage of a bookbooking fee?
Jeremy DeVries (06:43):
Usually it's a per day rate per day.
So, yeah, you basically agreewith the and the guides are
usually all 1099 independentcontractors and so they have
their own independent trade.
That you know.
They run their own boat andthey run their own truck and
they run all of their owndecision making on the river and
we just set a day rate.
They take a day rate for it.
But now Mack and I are nowpartners on this property and
(07:05):
we're partners in River RockOutfitters and a brand new LLC,
so we're going to share profitsthroughout the whole thing.
So, but it will still runthrough basically my outfitter's
license.
Colter DeVries (07:16):
What kind of education, trainings, licensing
requirements go into anoutfitter?
Can I, just me?
Can I take some courses andbecome an outfitter tomorrow?
You?
Jeremy DeVries (07:26):
can't, you can't .
So in order to be a guide, it'spretty easy.
I could sign a piece of paperright as an outfitter.
I could sign a piece of paperright now and I could make a
culture of license toningfishing guide in Montana.
But in order to be in myposition as an outfitter, you
have to take an exam, a writtenexam.
You have to pay a pretty heftylittle fee in order to get your
(07:48):
license.
Then you have to prove 100 daysworth of guide experience,
either for whatever game thatyou're chasing.
So if it's fish, you have tohave 100 days.
If it's birds, you have to have100 days.
If it's deer and elk, you haveto have 100 days.
So you have to show days worthof experience.
Then you have to buy insuranceand insure yourself.
So it's a fairly lengthyprocess.
Most people in their first yearof guiding they'll only get 30
(08:10):
days.
So in order to get 100 daysworth of experience, you have
it's kind of a three year dealSome young guides who are really
good.
You know, if they're really hotyoung guys, maybe they'll get
80 or 90 in their first year.
But it's hard to get over 100guide days in a season.
Colter DeVries (08:25):
So that sounds a lot like real estate.
It usually takes I mean, ifyou're killing it in Montana
three years, $30 million, tobecome a broker.
So you start off as an agent,gain your experience and work
your way up, just like the guide, outfit or relationship, yep.
So why?
What's the problem with me?
(08:46):
Just, I don't have a license,but my family has a ranch.
Why can't I just do illegaloutfitting?
What's wrong with?
Jeremy DeVries (08:53):
that Probably the biggest.
The number one reason isprobably you wouldn't be insured
.
So all of my clients areinsured for a million dollars
per person on any day that theycome out, so something terrible
would happen.
I'm required by statute to haveinsurance to cover them for
anything that could possibly gowrong.
I would say that's probably thenumber one reason.
Colter DeVries (09:12):
And I would assume all of your guides and
yourself.
You have CE trainings andprobably first aid.
Jeremy DeVries (09:19):
EMT First aid, first aid, yep, first aid.
It used to be first aid, ncpr,but now it's just first aid.
Colter DeVries (09:27):
So I hear a lot about illegal outfitting in
Montana.
Yeah, tell me about this.
Jeremy DeVries (09:33):
That's funny.
I was talking to a warden justyesterday in Columbus, Montana.
Colter DeVries (09:37):
What is it?
What is illegal outfitting?
Jeremy DeVries (09:39):
So illegal outfitting is basically
accepting fee, accepting somesort of compensation for
services that you don't have alicense to offer, basically.
So in order to get that license, there was all those
requirements that I just talkedabout, and I think the biggest
one being the years ofexperience and the days or and
the insurance.
(10:00):
So basically what it means it'sin Montana, if you hire an
outfitter, they're going to bepretty competent and they don't
have those rules in other states.
Oklahoma, if you just sayyou're a guide, you're a guide.
Alaska, if you just put out asign on your window and say
you're a guide, you're a guide,and what ends up happening in
some of those other places isthat you get about a 50-50
experience, Like half of themare good and know what they're
(10:21):
doing and the other half they'reterrible and craps you and they
stink right.
But, in Montana because we havethose kind of laws in place and
generally I don't like laws andrules, but when?
Because those are in place inMontana.
If you hire an outfitter,pretty good chance they're going
to have an idea what they'redoing and and do a pretty decent
job and I mean I bring this upon the podcast.
Colter DeVries (10:40):
I'm generally I mean, I'm blowhard libertarian,
so I'm generally againstlicensing and I would be okay if
doctors did not have to gothrough licensing accountants,
real estate.
But I do understand and I willrecognize that those of us with
a license provide a higherstandard of service.
(11:00):
Yeah, I don't think I don't,because there are unlicensed
real estate wheelers and dealersout there, right, Just just
like we have lots of illegaloutfitters, Sure.
Jeremy DeVries (11:10):
And we do and we have guys that I see it every
year.
There's always illegaloutfitters out there doing what
they're doing and the biggestthing, the biggest fear that I
have especially being theinsurance nerd that I am right
Something awful were to happento some of those people on those
on those illegally outfittedtrips.
You know compensation for thosefolks and it can be scary,
(11:30):
especially when you're packingaround guns and you know going
out when it's 23 below zero andyou know there's some fairly
dangerous things that you end updoing in the in the outfitting
business and I think theinsurance part is a huge deal.
Colter DeVries (11:43):
So, yeah, I mean the standard of care, the
assurance, the insurance, theliability, the risk.
All of that goes into thislicensing issue that I just I
don't like as a free marketlibertarian.
But I, you know, I have alicense and I respect that and I
think customers and clientsshould as well.
Jeremy DeVries (12:02):
Well, I completely agree and well, as
far as the libertarian part I'mbasically, I guess I would say I
lean that way myself but I alsoappreciate the fact that it is
difficult to become an outfitterin this state.
There's been become thisrelationship between out of
state people and in-state peopleusing resources that are here
(12:25):
that you and I pay taxes for,that other people don't pay for
for, and how all of that kind ofties together, where I
appreciate the fact that thereis some requirements, for lack
of better term.
It eliminates the riffraff manAbsolutely Like.
It just gets rid of some of theriffraff.
Colter DeVries (12:43):
Well, on that note of riffraff and licensing
and regulations.
So me being in the ranchbrokerage business, I've been
hearing of new buyers coming toMontana and they've been taking
their buddies out and harvesting, let's say, five bull elk off a
ranch where they have zero tax.
Is that really going on?
(13:06):
Is that is talk about theproblems of outfitting and
guiding and and recreationindustry in Montana, sport,
sportsmen industry Do we reallyhave an issue of I don't know
what would you call thatStealing a public resource?
Jeremy DeVries (13:23):
Um, I as far as like, as far as deer and elk.
I don't do any deer or poaching.
Colter DeVries (13:28):
I guess you call it poaching because it is but,
yeah, and and yeah, I would.
Jeremy DeVries (13:32):
I'm sure that happens.
I mean, a guy comes in.
I can think of a guy right now,paid 18 million dollars for a
local ranch, 60,000 acres, niceplace.
You would know it if I said it.
Um, and, and I'm sure that ifhe's and he's from out of state
let's say he's from Missouri andhe comes up here with this 13
year old kid and the 13 year oldkid and him are wandering
(13:53):
around in the hills on their60,000 acre ranch and they
decided to pull the trigger on abull elk.
I, I got a guy, I got a guyback home.
I have a guy that I know backhome and I said and I won't say
his name either, but I said hey,tom, you shoot those elk out in
your yard and he goes everyyear I shoot a bull up every
single year and they go and andI and he said, and so do my
(14:15):
grandsons and whatever, and hegoes, I feed them elk.
and those are right, you know.
I feed those elk and I'm goingto shoot one.
I said, man, how do you getlicenses for everybody up here?
So it's a tough draw area andit's tough to get on.
He goes I never, I haven'tbought a license in my life.
He just says I feed him.
I'm going to shoebox full offarmers tags.
I'm going to shoot a couple ofthem, yeah, yeah.
Colter DeVries (14:35):
I actually took a friend hunting on my folks's
place this year and my mom sheraised an eyebrow.
She goes you bought a license.
I guess now that I am licensedand I have a business, I
probably probably don't want togo by the old farmers way and
that that's actually very common, I would say, with my, my
(14:57):
network of ranchers.
So I guess the question I wantto pose from that how is it any
different when an Oklahoma Texasguy buys a 60,000 acre ranch,
takes three bowls bull elk offof it illegally or brings up 20
of his duck hunting buddies andnone of them have tags or
(15:19):
licenses?
How is that any different thanthe good old boy ranchers who
never bought a license in theirlife?
Jeremy DeVries (15:26):
No, it's a.
It's a, it's a fair question,other than when you're on your
own private property, that's onething, but when you start using
public resources, in otherwords public rivers, for example
, or public hunting areas,there's matter of fact, just
this last week there's a bigdeal kind of up in the
northeastern part of the statewhere a couple commissioners
(15:46):
fish, wildlife and commissionershad started to basically say
they wanted to leave hunting notopen for non-residents for two
weeks and give, like theresidents, their own special two
week season.
It's kind of still being talkedabout right now in the fish,
wildlife and parks commission,but I guess their whole thing up
there was that they had dogtrainers from Texas coming in by
(16:07):
the truckloads, guys bringinghundreds of dogs, you know 25,
20, 25 different pro trainers upthere basically chasing around
all of the sharp tail and hunsup in that northeastern corner
of the state for the entiremonth of July, the entire month
of August and then right intothe season.
So basically local residentswould want to go out and shoot
their, you know, shoot sharptail, grouse or huns on the
(16:28):
first of September and all thebirds are like educated and
terrified and hard to hard tolocate.
We're in a normal year, thefirst of the opening days of the
season, it would be easy for alocal family to go out and hunt.
And I guess, to answer yourquestion more directly, all of
us that live in pay taxes in thestate of Montana, I think have
(16:51):
a vested interest in the qualityof the hunting and the quality
of the fishing that's here and Isee it as a big, large resource
that we need to make surecontinues to have value.
And I think that local peoplethat live here have a lot more
vested interest in how thatvalue is determined.
(17:12):
You know what is?
What is the value of a dadbeing able to still take his kid
and go out and find a bull elkor to go out on the weekend and
find a spot to shoot ducks?
And I think we all I thinklocal people have a much more
feel, a much more stronger, amuch stronger responsibility to
protect that than someone, say,from Florida to us or Texas or
(17:32):
wherever, who just bought a60,000 acre ranch and comes and
does whatever he wants.
Colter DeVries (17:37):
Well and this has come up on the podcast
before that that is extractive.
It's like tourism.
Tourism dollars do not.
They're not vested.
As you mentioned the localtaxpayer, who's an avid
outdoorsman, he is vested forthe long term.
He has an alignment of interesttourism and transactional
(17:58):
hunting, recreation.
We'll call it that is there'sthere's a problem there, there's
some conflict, because we wantthe tourism dollars here in
Montana, but we also want toprotect that resource for and we
want to enhance that resourcebecause it is not just
personally valuable to many ofyou outdoorsmen, but it's
(18:20):
economically valuable to thetaxpayers.
So where are we at today in thestate of Montana, we've got this
, we've got these coalitionsgoing on where you've got the
public land advocates and I I'monly saying public land because
you did I call it governmentland.
There is no such thing aspublic land.
(18:40):
I like that.
Public doesn't own shit.
The government owns it.
The public has no right to it.
The government is an entityseparate from the public, anyway
.
So we got government landadvocates.
We've got we've got outfitterswho are guaranteed licenses, and
maybe you can talk to me aboutsome of the proprietary rights
(19:04):
that protect your business.
How do you get a lease in theForest Service, so no one else
can compete with you.
Or how do you get proprietaryrights to the Bighorn River?
So you guys have your camp inHelena and then you got private
land owners who have their campand they want to monetize that
with the Bighorn River and theywant to monetize that with
access fees.
(19:24):
And then you've got out ofstate hunters another coalition
who are willing to pay $350,000for a Bighorn sheep hunt in
Montana.
Jeremy DeVries (19:33):
Right, just the other day.
Colter DeVries (19:34):
Yeah, yeah.
Where.
Where do we stand with all thatand how?
How is it not working for you,the outfitter?
Jeremy DeVries (19:42):
Well, I mean, obviously it is working for me.
My business is this is my 30thseason.
We're, you know, successfulPeople who come, and the
majority of my clients are fromout of state.
Colter DeVries (19:53):
Um, of course I mean yeah, yeah, because if
you're a Montana resident,you're just going to load up the
F-150 and go out and do it.
Yeah.
Jeremy DeVries (20:01):
Yeah, exactly as far as the deer and the elk and
the sheep and stuff like that.
I don't do any big gameoutfitting and I don't do it on
purpose.
So there used to be outfittersponsored tags.
The state voted those out.
Oh gosh, it's been a while,eight years ago or something.
I'm again, I'm not a big gameoutfitter, so I don't know the
exact details but the outfittersbasically don't have sponsored
(20:22):
tags anymore, so that theirclients have to draw just like
any anyone else from.
Okay, Since we moved to thepoint system, there's no
guaranteed tags for theoutfitter license as far as I
know and, like I said, I'm not abig game outfitter, I'm just
kind of more on the bird side,uh, and so so I can't really
speak to that as as well.
But I can tell you this um,when there's other out of state
(20:46):
interests that come in andpurchase property, uh, and if,
if it's Joe Smith comes in andhe buys a property and him and
his family come out and theyutilize, as you called it, a
government property like theBighorn River, the Yellowstone,
the Madison or the Jefferson orany of those rivers, they're not
(21:08):
doing a whole much more impactthan the family that was in that
ranch before them.
Right?
The concern that I am startingto see is people who purchase
these properties and then theycome in and they open up a
business or a club or a huntingclub of some sort or a
syndication.
Colter DeVries (21:27):
Which is why we're here to talk, right?
And then what ends?
Jeremy DeVries (21:32):
up happening is the use that they are putting on
the property is more than whatwas on the property previously.
Basically and that's where I'mstarting to see some conflicts
because you got local dads Ilive in Billings Montana you got
a local dad and his kid whoused to hunt in a certain
stretch of the Yellowstone River, let's say.
And now this hunting club hascome in next door, like right
(21:55):
next door, like riverfront rightnext door, and they're putting
10, 12 different boats on thewater.
Now this dad goes out and he'sfrustrated because he can't take
his kid hunting anymore, whenhe used to do it all the time
because people owned the ranchbefore.
It was just, you know, jimSmith and his kid and that was
it.
So I see that as a hurdle in,you know, in the future.
Colter DeVries (22:17):
The overuse of the public resource or, you know
, public good.
Let's call wildlife a publicgood.
The overuse of that because ofdevelopment, because if you
develop this hunting club orthis syndication, there's going
to be 20x the amount of pressureon that fishery or that
(22:38):
migratory pathway than there wasfor eons prior.
Jeremy DeVries (22:42):
Yeah, correct, and I guess and I'm one of those
guys I kind of agree with youthat if I mean if somewhat
libertarian issue, if someoneowns a piece of property, I have
no interest in that propertything.
It's nothing I can.
But when it is a collectivegovernment property or common
good, then that's where thequestions start to become raised
(23:04):
is how much pressure are youactually putting on?
It's something that I policemyself on and have for a long
time.
I'm actually kind of proud ofwhat we've done and a lot of
people don't know that aboutoutfitters.
They don't know that outfitters, especially in the bird side I
don't want to speak on the biggame side as much because they
are definitely very differentLike one bull elk doesn't look
(23:24):
like another bull elk and looklike another bull elk, but every
pheasant looks like a pheasantand every duck looks like a duck
and clients don't care.
But when you start talkingabout a big jampoel elk, then
they're going not that one, notthat one, but I want that one.
People lose their mind and theydo silly, they do silly shit
Like they, like they go crazy.
And that's where I think a lotof the anti alt fitter sentiment
(23:48):
comes from is not necessarilyfrom birds and fish guys, but a
lot from the big game side.
Colter DeVries (23:53):
Well, I'm.
One of my libertarian beliefsis self police, policing and to
have your industry self policeand regulate itself for, for
reputation, for credibility, forlongevity, for adding value.
And I don't know if yououtfitters are just spinning
this or giving me a good pitch,but you're the second one I've
(24:13):
talked to bird.
Last one was upland game bird,your migratory foul.
But they have said look, whenwe bag out, when we reach our
daily limit, if we have a person, a client, shoot another one,
they're done.
And we turn them in For sure,absolutely.
(24:34):
And they said that we ride herdon that very, very stringently,
absolutely.
So maybe you guys must be doinga good job.
You're either doing a good jobor you're selling me on that.
You're doing a good job?
No, we do Well it.
Jeremy DeVries (24:48):
I guess our livelihood depends on it, right,
right.
So we can't we can't playaround with rules.
So you know we have lifejackets and PFDs in the boat at
all times.
Make sure you got licenses foryour guides, or for your guides
and for your clients.
You make sure they don't haveplugs.
They have plugs in their gunswhen they're shooting waterfowl.
Make sure they're not shootinglead.
We make sure they don't shootover limit.
(25:08):
Make sure they don't shoot anextra bird of certain species.
You know there's a lot of thingsthat go into what, what we do
on a daily basis to make surethat our people are falling
within the general guidelinesthat you know.
The state is the state and thefederal government is set, but
it's bigger than that, like it's.
It's bigger than that I waswhen I was a young guy, just
(25:28):
getting into the waterfall game.
I had a friend of mine and weused to help waterfowl together
for snow geese in South Dakotaand we were talking about what
we were going to do and what wewere going to become and how we
were going to make it make ourfortune in the outfitting, in
outfitting world right and hetook one path and I took the
exact opposite path and I thinkboth of us have been successful.
Maybe he's more so than me insome regards and me more so than
(25:51):
him in other regards.
So he has a giant place in theSouth and they have gotten to
where they own 15, 20,000 acresand they they manage and ranch
and farm not ranch, but manageand farm and run water on a
bunch of property and they takeup to 60 guests a day 60, 60.
And so he's generating a lot ofrevenue for himself.
(26:14):
So he's become very successfulin that regard.
And some of their hunts aregreat and some of them are in
the middle and some of them arenot so great, but they're just
turning.
They're turning 60 people.
My business right here.
I did the exact opposite.
I only have myself and twoother boats, and so we take six
to eight people, maybe nine onthe most.
So we're putting two boats,three boats, on the river extra,
(26:38):
and not every day and not everyday of the season.
And the way we looked at it Ilooked at it, I guess is that I
wanted every client that came tohave a great opportunity to at
least have a chance to shoottheir birds.
Could I have sold 30, you know30 guests and put out you know
15 boats or 20, I could have.
I could have.
(27:00):
But it's just the wrong thing todo for the, for the river that
I work on.
I know that the more pressurethat I put on that river, the
more difficult it becomes, notonly for me, but it becomes for
that local dad who lives here inBillings and wants to take his
kid hunting too, and I justdidn't feel right doing it.
So when you talk about selfpolicing, I don't think a lot of
people really understand thatoutfitters do a lot of that
(27:20):
policing on purpose, not onlyfor their own benefit but for
the benefit of the kids thatthey got and the families that
they got to live with every day.
Like I come back to Billings, Ivolunteer baseball coach and if
I'm out there screwing things up, I can run myself into people
who I did the wrong thing around, or I said something different,
or I pushed a guy out of a spot, or you'll see him at the post
(27:41):
office, exactly, exactly, or Istole his spot or I you know
what.
Whatever the case may be, thelocal people have, I feel, have
much feel a more larger,stronger obligation to take care
of that resource, wheresometimes I don't know that
people who purchase propertyespecially this is going to
sound awful, but especially guysthat come from the south where
(28:03):
it's got so difficult for themto find places to hunt anymore I
don't know that they come withthat same level of concern for
the local resident as a localoutfitter or a local hunter does
.
Colter DeVries (28:16):
Yeah, they come to be self serving and
extractive, correct?
If I'm going to summarize maybe, maybe put you know you're fine
, put you in a box here.
To summarize what I hear ofyour feelings is that they come
up here to be completely on thetake self serving and extractive
.
It's an extractive resource tothem?
(28:37):
I guess no, but but I mean theway.
Jeremy DeVries (28:41):
If you're summarizing it like that
strongly, I guess I don't feelthat it's that strong,
particularly if it's just oneguy, right, like if it's, if
it's Coulter's family that comesand buys this place and he
hangs out with his family.
That's, that's not really whatI'm talking about.
Like, I'm not worried aboutthat guy.
That guy is just like me andyou and anyone else.
(29:01):
Right, he's coming to free.
Yeah, he's free.
He wants to purchase a piece ofproperty and live on it and
enjoy it.
And what's starting to happennow is these larger
conglomerations of people,people who pay $300,000,
$400,000 a year to be a memberin a club.
The club purchases property allacross America and then they
get invited to these pieces ofproperty to hunt big game or to
(29:23):
hunt docks or to hunt pheasantsor wherever South Dakota has a
bunch of them.
And now you're putting pressurefrom pressure from other places
into the local areas and it'smaking it difficult for local
dads to go out with their kids,and that genuinely concerns me.
I guess, is what I'm saying.
Colter DeVries (29:41):
Yeah, because you sounds like you have seen
them come in and just it's likeSherman's march through the
South, where it's just scorchedearth behind them.
Jeremy DeVries (29:51):
It is, it really is, and it's not their fault.
But they don't usually don'tknow what they're doing either,
right?
So next thing you know, you'vegot just boats driving around
all the way along on a publicriver, or you've got trucks
inside by sides driving up anddown all the old logging roads
all day long, everywhere,because they're they're trying
to figure it out and they'retrying to learn it, and that I.
That part I understand.
But while they're trying tolearn it, while they're trying
(30:14):
to figure it out, it's justbasically screwed it up for the
people who are already there andalready know what's going on,
and it's going to become a bigchallenge for the state, I think
.
Colter DeVries (30:25):
Well, I was just about to say this, this
experience of yours, I don'tthink is a phenomena.
This $300,000 hunting club, theelite from the south coming up
here buying Montana ranches,essentially buying the resources
that are supplied by thoseranches, that's not gonna change
(30:47):
.
No, it's not.
It's only gonna actually getbigger.
So where do we go from here?
Jeremy DeVries (30:52):
So it's a great question.
It's a question that I thinkMontana I think Montana
residents and Montanans andrealtors and outfitters and
everyone is gonna have to kindof struggle with for the next,
you know, for the rest of ourgeneration and probably our
kids' generations too.
But I know that you, in nineyears, are gonna have a kid that
(31:13):
you're gonna wanna take onsomewhere and you want it to be
just as good for him as it waswhen you were 12.
And I know that right now youdon't probably think it feels
like it felt to you when youwere 12.
Oh, definitely not, because Idon't right.
So I'm 50 and when I was a kid Icould go anywhere I wanted,
shoot anything I wanted, huntanything I wanted, and all I had
(31:35):
to do is make sure that Ididn't make sure that I took
care of the relationship thatgot me where I was at.
Like I couldn't piss off MrJones when I went on to his farm
, or I couldn't leave his gatesopen or I couldn't even whatever
.
And now it's like I gotta thinkabout paying Mr Jones and I
gotta have insurance, so then incase something weird happens,
and then I gotta worry aboutSteve and Bill and John, who are
(31:56):
also trying to get on to MrJones's property, and it's just
changed so much and it's gonnachange again in our lifetimes,
and so at some point a lot ofpeople are gonna have to make
different, I guess decisionsabout what the value of those
public goods really are.
Colter DeVries (32:15):
Well, and it's not Farmer Jones's farm anymore.
He sold out.
It's a fair point.
So I mean these dynamics areagain.
We talk about the rapid changethat has happened to Montana in
the last four years.
This rapid change is, I mean,it's been coming.
It's kind of like going brokeslowly than all at once.
(32:37):
But what's happened the lastfour years seems like a
compounding amplification ofwhat was in the developments for
the last 40 years.
And now it's on a trajectory tokeep that compounding growth
and we just don't know how we'regonna adjust and I mean I have
(32:57):
to.
So, Jeremy, I have to adjust mybusiness to that.
Sure, I have to appeal to bothMr Jones to get him to sell his
farm to this duck membership,this multi-state duck membership
, and I have to find a way toappeal to that billionaire buyer
(33:18):
, talk his language and earntrust rapport with him, while
also Mr Farmer Jones, Sure.
And so we have to adjust ourbusinesses if we wanna stay
alive.
Jeremy DeVries (33:31):
Sure, For sure I just under like earlier, before
we were on this podcast, youhad asked me you're like well,
wouldn't you see that big giantduck club as an opportunity, as
a way to make money?
Maybe you go guide for thatduck club or whatever.
And it's a legitimate question,because maybe they would have
loved to have had local, localguide, knowledge about where
(33:55):
they're at and where they'regoing.
But I also know the resourcethat I'm on and I understand
that it can't maybe take some ofthe pressure that an operation
of that large is really gonnaput on that resource, and I
wouldn't let myself get that big.
So I sure as heck aren't gonnahelp someone else get bigger, if
(34:15):
that makes any sense.
So when you guys were sellingthe property, sell them to Jim
and Mary the couple.
Yeah, that'd be great.
And I feel for the people fromthe South, because Arkansas,
louisiana, texas, I mean, youcan't find public property,
public land to go hunt onanymore.
It's all been either overrun bymillions and millions and
(34:37):
millions of people, or it's beenpurchased and you can only, or
least, and so that no one canhunt on that either.
So I understand how people aremoving here and hunting Colorado
and Idaho and not even Colorado.
So much Colorado is pretty badtoo.
But Idaho, wyoming, the Dakotasand certainly now Montana, and
you hear of hundreds andhundreds of people, thousands,
(34:59):
really going to Canada andhunting Alberta and Saskatchewan
.
I think that whole swath of themiddle of the country is kind
of in that similar to leastpopulated area and that's, and
so people are drawn here forbasically no other reason that
there's just no people or fewerpeople.
And they like that, they likethat feeling of freedom.
Colter DeVries (35:17):
And Texas is all pay for play Right and here to
the larger degree it is not.
You still got to buy a tag.
Jeremy DeVries (35:25):
Yeah.
Well and I'm starting to seepeople who are paying lease fees
and leases and properties.
Colter DeVries (35:33):
Let's talk about that.
How do you protect yourbusiness?
What is proprietary about whatyou do to where you know that
you're not going to get undercutbackdoor to have their rug
pulled out from underneath you?
What is, how do you secure whatyou have?
Jeremy DeVries (35:48):
That's a good question.
When people call me and they'reinterested in coming to Montana
and they want to shoot ducks, Iam ending up interviewing them
just as much as they'reinterviewing me.
So I ask questions like do youhave your own boat?
Do you go to Canada on your ownand freelance hunt?
Do you hunt on your own?
Do you hunt back home with yourbodies, and questions like that
(36:12):
.
Local people from Bozeman callme a lot.
I get a fair number of callsfrom Yellowstone Club and people
do you have your own boat?
Nope.
Colter DeVries (36:20):
I wouldn't consider Bozeman local.
But go on, and especially notYellowstone Club, but do tell
more.
Jeremy DeVries (36:29):
So we have to be careful, like we have to be
careful about who we can takeout, especially on public land.
And I do have some privateproperty and we do have some
leases, and some of those leasesare ones that are like you just
said.
I mean, it's us protecting ourbutt so that we make sure we
have something to do, and thedifference with that is that
(36:50):
every year, I take four to eightdays a season on those private
leases and I give them away.
I let some local dad take hiskid.
I have a soft spot for kids.
After all of your followershear this.
I'm gonna get all these callsfrom these dads, oh for sure,
for sure.
But I do.
I do have a soft spot for a dadand his kid and I try to
(37:13):
protect them local dads andtheir kids as much as I can.
And so if they call me up andsay, hey, I got nowhere to hunt,
or I got screwed by this orthis and this happened, I'll
just say, hey, here's a spot, goahead and go.
And they say, well, what do Iowe you?
Because I know you lease it, Isay you don't owe me anything,
just go have fun and enjoy it.
And sometimes that doesn't workeither, because then they call
me every year and I gotta becareful with that too, and so
(37:36):
it's always a little bit of abalancing game.
Colter DeVries (37:38):
You're preaching to the choir.
Coming from a family who letevery first time hunter go out
on their place, that ever wanted, never said no to anyone and
those kids grew up and keptcoming back and coming back and
leaving gates open.
So you do have leases.
You have some private leases.
Those are proprietary, they'reexclusive, they're limited,
(38:01):
they're restricted.
You could probably get, if youwere doing upland game bird you
can get an exclusive on BLM.
You probably could.
Jeremy DeVries (38:09):
You know, I don't know For bird.
That's a great question.
I don't know.
Colter DeVries (38:12):
Maybe Forest Service, maybe some state, there
is some state land that you canguide on?
Yeah, Yep, and you'd be theonly guide on that, correct?
Jeremy DeVries (38:21):
I think.
So I don't know Like I don't atleast-, what about the?
Colter DeVries (38:24):
rivers, though.
Is there a limit to how many ofyou bastard outfitters can be
on the river screwing it up forthe rest of us?
As far as I know, there isn't,so it can just be congested and
clogged all to hell, with youguys making money while us
taxpayers are subsidizing yourincome.
Jeremy DeVries (38:42):
It sure could, it sure could.
But to your point I just.
I think most outfitters arefairly responsible, actually,
like there are certain stretchesof the river the Yellowstone
for example that might see aboat a day, like one boat a day,
and there are other stretchesthe afterband, the big horn, the
first three miles of theMissouri River, for example, the
(39:04):
upper Madison where the fishing, the fish numbers, don't seem
to be as affected by the amountof traffic that's on it.
That's there.
The fish are able to sustainmore pressure in certain spots
and I think that gets lost a lotin the discussion about how
quote unquote overcrowded aplace is.
(39:24):
People are like we're onlygonna let five boats.
Well, yeah, and that in thisarea maybe only five boats is
what should be there, but inother spots you could have 50
boats and it's not a big deal.
All 50 of them have a fish onand they're all doing great, and
so that does happen.
Colter DeVries (39:40):
So, as Montana's population continues to grow,
and it will forever grow, and asthe interest in Montana grows,
you're gonna see more placeslike the upper Madison.
And what's the boat float nearShields River, shields Valley?
Yeah, it's on the Yellowstone.
Yeah, what's the big boat floatthat's restricted, where you
have to get a permit?
(40:01):
Oh, the Smith, the Smith River.
Yeah, the Smith, that is.
You're gonna see stretches ofcertain rivers in certain areas
become more regulated.
Jeremy DeVries (40:10):
Sure, and some of them probably should, as much
as I absolutely hate to saythat because I don't like the
rules and I think people cangenuinely do the right.
In the past people havebasically done the right thing.
But there's sections of theSmith that aren't any wider than
your kitchen.
So I mean it probably does needlike a little bit of hey, you
(40:33):
guys need to take turns here.
Four boats get pushed into abig fast corner that's literally
the size of your kitchen.
It can be a little bitdangerous.
And here's the other thingabout the Smith.
The Smith is 70 miles long andthere's no takeouts in between,
like you can't drive your pickupdown there, you can't get an
ambulance in there.
I mean it'd be helicopter only.
If you want to get in.
It's a three day minimum andthat's if you're hauling ass to
(40:55):
get through that thing.
It's more like a five day floatto go through the Smith.
So I can understand why there'skind of permitting on the Smith
.
Colter DeVries (41:02):
And you have to shit in a bucket.
So you've done it, no that'sthe reason I have not done it.
No, I didn't want to be stuckin a small boat with a bunch of
people for three days.
That's.
Jeremy DeVries (41:17):
That sounds like torture to do it.
Yes, that sounds horrible.
Colter DeVries (41:21):
Ah, you'd love it.
Jeremy DeVries (41:23):
Man, the Smith is a great trip.
You should.
Every Montana should go.
Do the Smith at least once.
It's just a cool, really coolscenic wilderness adventure and
there's a bunch of great guidesthat make the trip easy.
You know you'll float all daylong and they cook for you, I've
been told, clean for you andpick up camp and you just get to
fish and drink beers and havefun and it's really fun.
Colter DeVries (41:46):
I've been told don't do it with a feuding
bickering couple in theirfifties.
It'll just be miserable foreveryone.
Jeremy DeVries (41:53):
It's very true, you get locked in for five days
and you're in tight quarters.
Colter DeVries (41:59):
So where is your industry, the outfitters?
Jeremy DeVries (42:03):
So, we're just.
I have a partner of mine namedMack.
We just purchased a lodge onthe Big Horn River right near
Two Legons Access.
It's brand new, just happenedthis January.
Colter DeVries (42:13):
Congratulations.
Thanks, man.
Jeremy DeVries (42:16):
Why didn't you use me?
My father-in-law was a realtorand he did a great job and it's
a cool piece of property Used tobe last stand outfitters.
So it was an outfitter beforeus.
He did mostly big game stuff.
We're just kind of doing birdsand fish.
We're primarily going to be aduck place.
(42:36):
Like I said, we're just payingmoney to put our clients at
other places and it's asubstantial amount of income for
the local area.
It's like 40 grand a year.
We're paying for people just tosleep.
So it's a good little chunk ofchange coming into the local
economy by having us around andnow we're pulling that money out
of the local economy and payingourselves.
(42:57):
But they'll still be buyinggroceries and they'll still be
going to get gas and licensesand all of the stuff and we
still will do day trips too.
So some of the stuff that atthe motels and hotels they'll
still be there and we do have.
I had one today.
A guy said hey, I liked wherewe were standing before.
Can we stay there?
Sure, you bet.
And so some of those Airbnb'swill still have revenue from us
(43:18):
too.
Colter DeVries (43:19):
Why didn't you buy my listing two years ago?
Down in the Big Horn Valleythere's Garrison Stoker Resort.
Jeremy DeVries (43:25):
Yeah, it's a little further south than I want
it to be.
Okay, this is a good place.
It's a good place.
Do you sell that?
Did you sell it or did someoneelse sell it?
Yeah, you sold it.
Colter DeVries (43:35):
But where's your industry at with what
improvements need to be made tothe outfitter business in
Montana?
How do you help you?
Jeremy DeVries (43:42):
Well, years ago the outfitting business was
really, really regulated to thepoint where it was getting to be
too much.
I thought we had.
You would get.
Say, for example, I got aticket for having three life
jackets instead of four, andfour people in my boat and I
only had three life jackets,what I normally carry in my
drift boat.
I had a fourth person that day,forgot all about it, and I got
(44:04):
a $40 ticket from the state ofMontana.
So the state said Jeremy,here's your $40 ticket.
At the time, the board ofoutfitters there is a board of
outfitters in the state, theboard of outfitters find me $400
.
Oh my goodness.
And they put me on probationfor a year.
So and I said this is crap,it's double jeopardy.
Like I had all these argumentsat the time and I had one of the
(44:26):
guys his name was Daniels fromthe board.
He calls me up, he says Jeremy,I understand, man, it's a $40
ticket.
The state doesn't see it as ahuge deal.
We, I said, yeah, you guysmultiplied it 10 times.
That's the fines we get is 10times.
And he goes well, you got tothink of it more as, like,
you're a professional athleteand when a professional athlete
gets in trouble for you know,whatever they get in trouble
(44:47):
conduct that they get in troublein the NFL the team finds them
and the NFL finds them, andthat's the way we like to look
at the outfitting industry.
I don't think a lot of peoplein the state know that
outfitters are pretty well,pretty well regulated and the
state has their thumb on us andthey know what we're doing.
All the time Recent historyWe've gone the opposite
(45:08):
direction, or we've changeddirectors and changed government
and it's gotten to wherethey're regulating us almost not
at all.
So now what you've got isyou've got guys who don't know
anything about birds, a bunch ofcowboys, 100%, 100%.
There's a bunch of guys whogenuinely have no clue what
they're talking about,pretending to be outfitters.
They made new rules that youcould, instead of your 100 days
(45:31):
worth of experience, you couldbuy out 50 of those, but you
could take a training course toget credit for some of those in
a classroom.
And those are the some of thethings that I don't like.
What I think the outfittingbusiness really could use is
somewhere right in the middle,where we have regulate those
things that are really criticaland really important and
(45:52):
eliminate a lot of the stuffthat eliminate that.
Making it so easy, that makingentry so easy that you get
people who are just notqualified to be doing what
they're doing.
Colter DeVries (46:02):
So it can't be all cowboys and it can't be
California level regulation youjust nailed that.
Jeremy DeVries (46:12):
Somewhere in the middle, you know, just a nice
professional professional groupof people is really good.
What do?
Colter DeVries (46:17):
you love most about this business?
What keeps you going?
What is your why or is, it's,might seem.
This is how you're why.
Jeremy DeVries (46:28):
So that's a great question, because it's
genuinely for me what feeds mysoul.
And, in other words, when I putmy boat in in the water in the
morning and it's cold and it'sdark, and you drive down the
middle of wide open river andit's dead silent, other than
your motor running and and thesun is just starting to come up
(46:50):
the fog is just starting to riseoff the river.
That is that it's that minute,that, and sometimes it only
lasts for 10 minutes or fiveminutes or whatever.
Or it's that the end of youknow the end of the day and
you're sitting around a campfirewith a bunch of guys laughing
and and you're having a whiskeyor whatever and you're talking
about something that happenedduring the day and you see the
(47:12):
smile on that guy's face that hegoes I did this today and I did
that today, and those are thethings that, like, really feed
my, my soul.
It makes me happy to be aliveand that that's that's what I
live for.
Just those those minutes, thoseminutes.
Not the money, it's not theanything else, it's just that
(47:34):
little 10 minute section.
The cool part about it is I usedto say this when I was fishing
and guiding the greatest part ofthe day is the first three or
strokes.
In the morning you put the boatin.
It's like a big chaos at theboat ramp.
There's a bunch of people there.
You put the boat in, you've gotyour two dudes ready to go and
they got their rods and theiryou know orvus hats and gear and
all their shit on and you'relike, and you pull away from
(47:56):
that boat ramp and you make thefirst two strokes and everything
is just exciting, likeeverything is like we're going
to catch them, we're going tohave fun, it's going to be a
great day like that little 10second, you know, period of time
is spectacular.
And then it just usually spiralsinto shit and you're tangled
and you know, and the wind blowsand people bitch and whatever,
(48:18):
but that those first three, orstrokes, or that little thing
when the sun rises in themorning, like just those little
minutes, are the that's, that'swhat it does.
Colter DeVries (48:28):
That's.
That is so funny, because I'mreading the biography of
Stonewall Jackson right now.
So what you just described withthat the launch, and how, how
expectations, pride, joy,emotions, everything's on a high
in the civil war leading up tothe civil war that's how the
(48:49):
South was, and I mean peoplewere just thinking there's going
to be a 12 day war.
They were going to leave theirtown and come back as heroes in
a week and girls were kissingall the boys on their way out.
Boys were just feeling likethey were 10 feet tall and 80
proof and they're like, oh, thisis going to be, this is going
to be easy, this is awesome.
I'm so jacked, I couldn't, Icouldn't want anything more, and
(49:13):
then it just it turned into thecivil war.
That's funny how how yourfeelings about boat launch is
the same.
Yeah.
Jeremy DeVries (49:23):
Well, the boat launch, the, the drive in the
boat in the morning.
You know the other one, thatthe other one.
That's really cool, man, andyou need to come out and do this
with me sometime.
Colter DeVries (49:30):
For free, for sure, okay, for sure.
Jeremy DeVries (49:33):
I'll get the money some other, some other way
.
There's a.
There's a.
There's a minute when you driveyour boat to a certain spot and
maybe it's a little backchannel or whatever, and you and
everybody's hoffing and puffingand moving and you're setting
up your blind and you're movingyour gear and you're getting
ready to duck hunt and you, youjust walk out into the water and
it's completely silent exceptyou hear that that decoy hit the
(49:55):
water and just splash down, youknow, and you've set 12, 20
decoys and you walk back up, yousit down in the blind and I
usually, you know, turned to allmy guys anybody need a cup of
coffee this morning and you sitthere for the next 10 minutes
before you can legally shoot.
And that 10 minutes beforelegal shooting light is probably
(50:17):
my favorite thing in the world.
Everything is just silent.
You're watching the sun kind ofjust slowly creep up.
There's usually ducks trying toland in your decoys at that
time and no one's screwing it upby shooting.
We're just watching andenjoying a cup of coffee.
Dude, it's like it's a, it's aspecial thing, it's a cool thing
.
Colter DeVries (50:37):
That's your feeling.
Yeah Well, Jeremy DeFries, howcan people find you?
Where are you at?
Jeremy DeVries (50:43):
So, uh, my business, um is that
Riverrockoutfitterscom, and youcan see us on Instagram and
Facebook.
Probably the best way to lookat us, though, actually is
Instagram, uh, and that'sRiverrock Outfitters.
On Instagram.
It's, um, it'll give you thebest insight as to what we do on
a daily basis.
It's very, um I don't know whatyou call it, but it's lots of
(51:04):
videos of us in the blind.
It's actually hunting, doingwhat we do on a daily basis.
It's not just like apromotional bunch of garbage.
You'll actually just get to seewhat we actually are doing and
you get to kind of meet who weare and what we're like.
Colter DeVries (51:17):
So, Well, thanks for coming on the Ranch
Investor podcast.
Jeremy DeVries (51:21):
Hey, thanks for having me man, I appreciate it.
Colter DeVries (51:23):
And thank you to anyone who is taking an
interest in outfitting andwanted to share this, please do.
Please share this with yourfriends and tune into the next
episode.
Thank, you.
We at Ranch Investor are veryinterested in hearing your
thoughts, your opinion, yourwants, desires, hopes and dreams
.
Everything on Ranchsyndications, ranch investment,
(51:47):
ranch real estate syndicationsand DPP's direct participation
programs.
Please reach out.
Ad (51:53):
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