January 1, 2024 • 58 mins
Every property holds a unique story, capable of significantly enhancing its intrinsic value. However, historied properties, or properties that have been on the market for some time, can also present challenges, influencing a property's market performance. From properties burdened with stigmatization to rich histories that become legends, some listings linger on the market for an extended period, while others sell quickly.
In this episode, Colter and Andy share their expertise and offer practical insights on harnessing property histories to your advantage and ride the narrative. They also delve into strategies for accurately assessing a property's true value, one that aligns seamlessly with your ranching ambitions.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
the first time I paid someone to change the oil on my
vehicle.
I I seriously I don't know if Islept that night.
Speaker 3 (00:07):
I had such like I don't know?
Speaker 1 (00:10):
I guess maybe insecurities around, am I going
to be disavowed?
Am I less of a man?
Welcome to the Ranch Investorpodcast.
I am Colter DeVries, your threeyear host.
I'm an accredited landconsultant with the Realtor Land
Institute and an accreditedfarm manager with ASFMRA
American Society of FarmManagers and Rural Appraisers.
Speaker 4 (00:32):
The Ranch Investor podcast is the most downloaded
and informative industryspecific content that intrigues
while entertains.
Speaker 1 (00:41):
Before we get started , as usual, I'd love to hear
your feedback.
So if you have a recommendedguest or a subject, please let
me know.
I'm back.
I'm back.
It's been a while it has been.
Speaker 3 (00:55):
I've been back too, developing my business,
developing my team, deep intoteam development, basically,
which is pretty exciting towatch.
Speaker 1 (01:06):
Is it hard to keep up with the Montana ranch market
right now?
Speaker 3 (01:09):
You know, it kind of felt this week.
Maybe it's just because I wasback in town, you know,
generally, no, it's been prettyslow, been pretty pretty.
Last week was pretty slow.
But I was doing some catch uptoday and thinking, boy, it
feels like things are maybeheating up.
But I'm on the site right now357 listings, that's right where
(01:33):
we've been all year sincesummer.
Speaker 1 (01:37):
Headed into the Christmas break.
Yeah, and normally we do have alull, a winter freeze.
Speaker 3 (01:44):
Yeah, although sometimes they're depending on,
like the year.
Sometimes there's a littlespike like regime change, if a
new presidency is coming inbullshit.
Speaker 1 (01:54):
Oh, I was waiting to see what happens with the
election.
Yeah, exactly, yeah.
Speaker 3 (01:57):
So fires and sellers both and there have been times
over time where there's eitheran actual or perceived like
taxation change, right, likechange in the state of 1031.
Speaker 1 (02:11):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (02:11):
Capital gains.
So sometimes you see, sometimesyou see motivation at the end
of the year.
I don't think there's anythingthis year doing that.
Speaker 1 (02:20):
Well, I like to tell people in passing at the grocery
store who ask me what's it like, what's the ranch market doing,
how's business?
I say I'm no longer competingwith other brokers, I'm
competing with the banks.
So the banks offerings yep,5.5% risk free.
More people seem inclined toput that money whether it's cash
(02:45):
, you know, or capitalizing onstocks, put that into CDs and at
5.5% risk free, that is whatyour annual return, annualized
return historically, is onranches, and those are not risk
free.
Speaker 3 (03:01):
So alternative investments competing with real
estate.
Speaker 1 (03:04):
Yeah it's yeah, not alternative, it's just the cost
of capital, the.
You know, if you're going toget 2% on an annual yield, which
is best case scenario, then 4%appreciation annualized there's
your 6% annual return.
You could, if you think in theslightest way that this market
(03:25):
is top heavy, that you're asAndy Ron says or guest today as
he says, if you're pre-payinginflation, if you're buying in
appreciation, then yeah, you'regoing to be inclined to just go
CDs today.
And I say I'm competing withthose damn bankers.
Speaker 3 (03:42):
I don't see any deals out there.
I don't see any low hangingfruit in their ranch investment
market right now.
I made an offer on one.
Speaker 1 (03:51):
Yeah, personally, really yeah For the online
syndication, uh-huh.
So I figured this one's been onthe market a while, it's got
some hair on it and so it missedthe best market in history.
It's been out there over twoyears and I was like, oh they,
even though they haven't done aprice reduction, which is a red
(04:11):
flag, I was like, well, it'sworth taking a shot.
I mean, it's my own time inwriting up this offer.
And.
I need to load it withcontingencies for online
syndication, because I still gotto register the offering with
the SEC and write up the PPM.
Speaker 3 (04:28):
And then, that is to say, have a legal entity that's
going to buy something.
Speaker 1 (04:31):
Well, I've got all the.
The back end is completelyformed.
I've got the infrastructurebuilt, even the back office for
fund management for K ones, eventhe accreditation process, the
approval process, the escrowfunding all the entire
infrastructure is built.
It's finding a decent productto offer and I thought this one
(04:55):
was worth my time and they, theyjust flat out rejected it,
ghosted me.
It was like I felt like I wasin the dating pool again and in
my, my swipe left went nowhere,didn't even respond, didn't even
respond.
Speaker 3 (05:12):
Was it?
Was it a real, real low baller?
Speaker 1 (05:15):
No, I actually wrote it.
What I thought was five to 10%higher than anyone else in the
market.
Wow Cause I was like, if I'mgoing to ask for all of these
contingencies, they're going towant to see what's in it for me.
Speaker 3 (05:31):
And so so you did.
It is an unusual level ofcontingencies, and I'm
absolutely standard Okay.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (05:37):
So yeah, and one with hair on it that missed the best
market in history.
Why not take a shot at that one?
Speaker 3 (05:43):
I wonder if the seller has that perspective on
their listing.
Speaker 1 (05:47):
Well in that.
So even the listing broker,which I'm not going to name
names.
Speaker 3 (05:52):
They ghosted me and I I we should have extra content
for pay.
Speaker 1 (05:58):
We should have a next hour and share all the names
Patreon account for for gettingthe real dirt.
Speaker 3 (06:06):
You got to go to the dark web, to see it.
If you want the real dirt.
This is the kind of thing wedream about.
Speaker 1 (06:16):
Yeah.
Although then, uh, launch intoa tangent, then I feel like we
might be abusing that privilege,that power, and going on a
canceling campaign just outthere, just canceling people
left and right.
Speaker 3 (06:31):
That's the problem.
It's hard to cancel people inour industry, exactly.
Speaker 1 (06:35):
Yes.
Very no one for better or worse.
No one wants to put their nameon a complaint to the department
of labor.
Speaker 3 (06:42):
Yeah, and what would that do anyway?
Speaker 1 (06:44):
Yeah, so I made the offer and I actually gave them a
week and a half to consider it,because it was loaded with
contingencies.
Speaker 3 (06:53):
Can you share some of those just broad strokes?
Speaker 1 (06:55):
Yeah, one was contingent upon raising.
So the the ranch, I made anoffer of 5.28 and the
contingency one of thecontingencies was contingent
upon actually raising 5.5 viaonline syndication.
Speaker 3 (07:12):
I mean that's that's a unique funding mechanism, but
it's not unusual to have fundingin general be a contingency, so
that's not too crazy yeah.
Speaker 1 (07:22):
That was just a basic financing contingency
essentially.
Yeah.
And I mean that's the way somedo diligence and that is another
basic contingency inspection.
Yeah, and so I didn't thinkthey were out of line.
I did ask for six months to putthis together and I gave them a
week and a half to consider it.
The listing broker ghosted me,didn't even tell me verbally,
(07:45):
declined.
So the due diligence is sixmonths.
The due diligence was onlythree months.
Okay, that's not.
The financing contingency wassix months.
Speaker 3 (07:56):
Okay, so that's.
That's unusual, that's a longtime.
Speaker 1 (07:59):
Yeah, well, when you're doing something new and
different.
Yeah, proven the concept, the,the minimum viable product, the
proof of concept, beta test here.
Speaker 3 (08:07):
But like you said, they missed the, they missed the
market.
As far as I mean, the market is, we can talk, we can get into
this.
You know it varies by propertytype and whatever, but the
market, the market is at theleast flat, if not declining on
most properties.
Speaker 1 (08:23):
What about the trophy properties?
Speaker 3 (08:24):
Yeah, that's a different story.
Speaker 1 (08:25):
Yeah, this is not a trophy property, so it and the
reason I was.
But does the seller know intheir mind it's probably got
gold and lithium underneath ofit.
Speaker 3 (08:37):
They're surely they're.
Listing broker didn't take outenough ads in the Wall Street
Journal.
That's why.
That's why it didn't sell yes.
Speaker 1 (08:44):
Yeah, well, and I'm, I mean, I have my opinions of
his, his performance in customerservice as well, and I I'm sure
to be critiquing my peers, mycompetition, that's not
professional, but I, you know, Idon't ghost anyone.
Right.
At the very minimum.
(09:04):
I've never done this, but atthe very minimum you can at
least send someone a text andsay right, verbally declined.
Yeah.
So I had to follow up and tryand try to get ahold of the
listing broker.
Speaker 3 (09:16):
I feel like you're going to slip.
It was editing available, yeah.
Speaker 1 (09:22):
That's right, Ray play.
Pay close attention.
Speaker 3 (09:27):
Was it going to be?
Speaker 1 (09:28):
a beepers or just going to cut it out.
And uh, so this one actuallydid check some of the boxes.
Location, elk scenery, that'spretty much it.
And there was so value add.
There's a play for value adthat I could see.
I know the neighbors, I knowthe area, it's my home area.
(09:49):
So you know, I felt like I hada competitive and comparative
advantage there to come in, stepin and add value to the place.
Well, if you get it bought atthe right price, Right, and so
no, they you ask about does theseller know that it's not a
trophy property?
When they ghosted me and thenfinally, after like eight missed
(10:11):
calls over days, it tookprobably two and a half weeks to
hear back from the listingbroker.
I did get a text.
Oh sorry, Super busy.
They said the price was too low, super busy, not selling
anything.
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (10:28):
And super busy in this volume yeah, deprived.
Speaker 1 (10:31):
Yeah, don't bullshit a bullshitter telling me you're
super busy.
I know otherwise, right, and soI wanted to be like well, mr
Broker, I didn't, you know, Iwanted to say this over the
phone text message.
I just said, okay, thanks.
But I wanted to be like, okay.
I think what the situation iseither your seller is shit,
(10:52):
you're listing a shit, or you'redoing a shit job.
Pick two of them.
It's got to be two out of three.
Speaker 3 (11:01):
Yeah, it's.
It never ceases to amaze me,the lack of professionalism.
Actually, you know, I mean I,of course I tell people, just
like a lot of industries, youknow, 20%, 80% of the work's
done by 20% of the people.
I think it might be more like90, 10 in real estate,
absolutely.
Speaker 1 (11:18):
And I look back on the craziness of 2020 and 2021.
And I know that I wasn'tperfect with customer service
and professionalism and I do.
I think there are protocols andand expected procedure,
expected professionalism that Iprobably fell short in a lot of
ways, but it was crazy back thenRight Crazy on my end, crazy
(11:43):
buyers we had.
I had a lot of preppers and alot of tire kickers,
disingenuous people watching theTV series Yellowstone.
I shouldn't create excuses.
I do know that during thecraziness, the frenzy, that I
wasn't perfect by any means, buttoday I think today's a really
good opportunity to be asprofessional.
Speaker 3 (12:07):
Well, you know, I mean, I spend an inordinate
amount of time Montana LandSource and you know that's the
value proposition.
You know we track stuff down,we check everything.
You know what the my data onMontana Land Source is not
broker managed, which I thinksets me apart from any other.
Speaker 1 (12:25):
You can't be influenced.
Speaker 3 (12:26):
Yeah, any other site you go to and so in an
inordinate amount of timetracking stuff down, just lots
of time and the hell of it is is, you know, probably probably
six, at least 60%, maybeknocking on 70% of the brokers
out there are crap.
So you know it's just dealingwith legitimately unprofessional
people.
Then you get into the trueprofessionals and the reality is
(12:49):
a lot of them are really busyand really struggle to right the
producers legitimately strugglewith you know busyness and I'm
always not.
I feel like I've got great.
You know relationships andpeople wanting to talk to me and
stuff.
But you know I'm not a cashbuyer either, right.
So those those hot times, rightthey're, they're hopping,
(13:10):
actually selling stuff andmaking money, and I'm not, I
don't represent that.
I'm more like a long-term, youknow relationship kind of thing.
But so between busy guys,between the ones that are super
busy and hard to get a hold ofand the ones that think they're
busy, I don't know what theythink, but they just suck.
Speaker 1 (13:30):
I'd like to see a case study between volume
brokerages that have lots andlots of listings, volume dealers
versus the bespoke boutiquetype.
So in small independent offices, maybe one man shows, like
myself.
Well, I'd like to hear see acase study done on customer
service and I'm not going tomention there.
Speaker 3 (13:53):
I'm not going to mention a name either, but
there's several volume dealers.
Well, I just noticed thisactually recently.
Speaker 1 (13:58):
I hadn't really thought about it and there's
even more independent guys.
Yeah, we should be customerservice.
Speaker 3 (14:03):
Yeah, but there's a, there was, there's a, an outfit
that was was the volume dealer,I would say, in Montana for
years and they, they, theyclearly had a model.
They'd take any listing, Ithink under almost any
circumstances.
They just, you know that's whatwas their business model more
of a, more of a volume and youknow certain percentage is going
(14:23):
to hit.
So that was their model andthey dominated volume across the
state and they've almostdisappeared.
Their volume has gone way down.
I don't know what's happened.
Ebs and flows, yeah, I don't.
I don't think it's really themarket as much as I'm just
guessing some kind of internalshift with that, with that firm.
I would I would guess, I don'treally know.
(14:44):
Change of leadership andstrategy, or working in the CRM,
like the founders you know,have kind of moved on or I don't
know something.
I don't know, but I justnoticed that the other day.
It's like, oh right, that thatoutfit used to dominate volume,
um, but you could, you couldpredict a hyper to your point
about.
You know data or stats on that.
(15:04):
They had a high amount, theyhad a high volume, but they had
a high fallout rate, right?
So a high percentage of whatthey took on didn't end up
selling and that, that, that isexpensive when you're just your
overheads.
Speaker 1 (15:18):
You need the transactions to first reach your
break even and and you'retaking on listings that aren't
bringing in the income and youhave that high marketing budget.
That's fixed cost for a lot ofus.
Speaker 3 (15:29):
Well, and you know, another thing I'll share
actually, my business is down alittle bit for the first time.
I've always and I well, I saydown, I'd say rate of growth is
down.
I've always been growing but myrate of growth is down and I
think it's.
There's been a handful ofone-off guys and retirements
kind of I might I mightcategorize as semi-early or
(15:52):
right.
Yeah, they got a big win andthis is a good time to go.
Speaker 1 (15:55):
They're going, barry Sanders going out on top.
Speaker 3 (15:58):
One great client and you know I, you know I love my,
I love my good clients.
I mean, some of these guys calland they're just as apologetic
as hell, you know, just like, ah, idiot, so sorry, blah, blah.
I was like, hey man, you knowyou're, you're retiring, you're
moving on, you're cuttingexpenditure.
Right, I get it, I'm, I can becheap, you know.
But one guy basically was likeyeah, you know, I think I'm kind
(16:20):
of out, think I'm kind ofretiring, and can I pull the
plug?
Of course I say yes, but then acouple months later he's like
ah, got, you know, got a got alittle deal flow kicking up, so
I need you back.
Yeah.
And he was.
He was apologetic then too, andit's like hey, that's why I got
month to month subscriptions.
Jump on, jump off every othermonth if you want.
I'm I'm good with that.
Speaker 1 (16:41):
You know Well, as we enter the Christmas break here
and we've been talking about thedifference between trophy
ranches and how there is aplateauing of seemingly
everything else what's going onwith the trophy ranches.
There are some big listingsthat hit the market week by week
(17:01):
and and they do sell.
Speaker 3 (17:03):
Yeah, there's been some big sales.
I mean CA is is privately.
Speaker 1 (17:09):
Yeah, that was like a consolidation of a of a prior
syndication.
Speaker 3 (17:13):
Yeah, so it was a sale, resale.
You know, the whole, the wholeplace sold, of course, just a
few years ago and that was, thatwas our record breaking.
And then the, and then it wasthe, the main unit, the main
because it had multiple units,so it's the main unit that just
resold.
And you know, we can't sharepercentages and, honestly, well,
you, you, throughoutappreciation, rate yourself that
(17:34):
you had determined on that, butwhat'd you say?
30%, 30 or even a little morein two years, two years, yeah,
yeah, so that does not representthe bulk of the market, I would
say in any way, but we seem tosee these because you know that
it's just a highly, highlyunique.
You know there's only a few ofthose.
Speaker 1 (17:56):
They can't normalize that Right and I would say
something like that 30%annualized return on two years
is more of like an opportunisticflip.
It's not an annualized ride.
The appreciation Right, right,that was very, very unique
property that it's like a MonetWe've said it before, kind of a
once in a lifetime.
Speaker 3 (18:17):
You know, these properties are kind of once in a
lifetime.
Well, right yeah, until twoyears go by.
Speaker 1 (18:24):
Once in a lifetime, every two years, especially for
these old guys buying almostdefinitely once in a lifetime.
Speaker 3 (18:30):
Yeah, right, like Murdoch.
What was he knocking on?
80 years old?
Yeah, a lot.
Um yeah, in South West Montana,I mean.
Speaker 1 (18:39):
Speaking of syndication, I see that a Frank
Lloyd White right.
Frank Lloyd right.
You know the architect.
Yeah, he's known for what is itModernism?
Speaker 3 (18:51):
Yeah I think something like that right, a
very modern contemporarymodernism, or his own style.
Speaker 1 (18:56):
You know, it's Frank.
Speaker 3 (18:58):
Lloyd.
Frank Lloyd Wright style yeah,Define, he's defined a style
yeah.
Speaker 1 (19:03):
So there's a Frank Lloyd Wright house not selling
on the market and for what?
You know what the seller isasking?
And I see in an article thatthey are going to fractionalize
it Wow, and they're going tosyndicate it.
They're out, they have sixunits.
So you, you buy a unit in anSPV special purpose vehicle, the
(19:28):
LLC that owns the house.
Speaker 3 (19:29):
So you're buying a sixth.
You're buying a sixth of ahouse, Yep.
So it's going to be like atimes like a.
Frank Lloyd Wright timeshare.
Well, it is.
Speaker 1 (19:36):
Picasso has the same model.
Picasso, one of the formerfounders of Zillow, started
Picasso and that's one eighthinterest in a second home or a
vacation home, and when theystarted the minimum was 350,000,
but they also ran into lowsupply, as I'm struggling with
low options, low inventory, andnow the minimum I don't know
(19:59):
where it's at 450,000.
500,000.
If you want a one eighthinterest in a home, and it's it
is you pick the home that you'regoing to be buying into, the
LLC, the SPV, so it's Malibu,aspen, ibiza, london, whatever.
And that's what this, theseller is trying to do.
(20:23):
They're, they're, they'resaying, well, we can't get our
price for the buyer, let'sfractionalize it for a higher
value.
Speaker 3 (20:34):
I mean, haven't timeshares kind of become a joke
of of an investment, right,aren't they?
Aren't they the case study fora bad way to spend your money?
I mean, you'd think so I'venever looked into it because
there's so much negativityaround them.
Well, there's ads for multiplecompanies for getting you out of
your timeshare Because like,yeah, it's a contract, it's
(20:56):
you're actually buying aproperty, right.
Speaker 1 (20:59):
Did you know that you have a right to time?
Yeah, I would figure so.
So, you have a, an interest, atitle, you have an interest on
the real property in a timeshare.
So I mean their, their rules orregulations are so much
different because you have to belicensed to sell timeshares
(21:21):
specifically, right.
Right, that sounds familiar andthat's probably what you're
talking about.
Sounds familiar and that'sprobably because you know so
many people got fleeced, right.
Speaker 3 (21:30):
Regulation.
Let's just create a specialcertification for this, yeah.
Speaker 1 (21:35):
Sector.
Yeah, I mean again, I've I'venever looked into.
I don't know of a timeshare.
I'm sure there are some inMontana.
Speaker 3 (21:44):
Well, yeah, what's kind of coming up for me and I
was actually talking to anappraiser recently about this,
you know, for a while especially, I guess it started up maybe 20
years ago sort of a fractionalline it wasn't really a frack.
Well, kind of a fractional lineis interest, you know, these
ranch developments where youhave your home site but then
you're kind of shared, communal.
Speaker 1 (22:05):
Common area yeah.
Common area maintenance yeah,yeah.
Speaker 3 (22:09):
And those largely failed, I would.
I would say there was a fewhigh profile ones that
dramatically failed.
And then even the ones thatwere successful, like well, kind
of big sky, like YellowstoneClub kind of, was a I think was
an early model there.
You know, same idea because youyou have your condo or whatever
but you're part of a sharedoverall the lodge and all this
(22:31):
kind of stuff.
But one of the arguments madeon those markets, and then Foley
, who did Rock Creek Ranch kindof a similar deal, kind of a
shared amenity.
But one of the arguments is youknow, do those guys have their
own community of buyers becauseof who they are, and they can
just pick up the phone and say,hey, I think you should consider
(22:52):
this and right.
Speaker 1 (22:53):
Yeah, it's not exactly an open market, right,
it's pretty limited andexclusive to their group of
friends and individuals.
Speaker 3 (23:00):
Well, and this is I'm , I'd interest to hear your
response to this, with your,with your syndication, with your
syndication strategy.
You know, one thing, kind ofinherent forever in owning
Montana land is not being in bedwith anybody, if you can help
it.
I mean, that's kind of themystique, is what's the joke?
(23:20):
You know you can.
You can shoot or take a leakoff your deck.
Yeah right, that's the, that'sthe.
So shared ownership of any kindkind of goes counter somewhat
to the, to what's been the sortof culture behind, for sure.
I was how does your modeladdress that?
(23:41):
Or you know, yeah, get out fromthat.
Speaker 1 (23:44):
Yeah, I was.
I was looking at the livestockvalue of a ranch, so grazing
income fee income 25 bucks anacre Well, like less than that.
But, but roughly.
If you capitalized it, itseemed like, depending on the
trophy ranch location, 15% ofthe value.
(24:07):
And as you go east to Montana orEastern Montana, northern Great
Plains, eastern Colorado,whatever.
It might be a little higher 30%, so 30% of the value is derived
from grazing, from agriculture.
So now you're looking at 8560to 85% is something else
(24:27):
location, exclusivity, privacy,rights, full control, recreation
, and yeah, so it's braggingrights.
How?
Yeah, absolutely so.
What is the value indemocratizing, fractionalizing
that other 80% of the value withthat?
(24:49):
Would that deteriorate themarket value to each one limited
partner, each one unit in theSPV?
Speaker 3 (25:00):
I mean it's being tested with Picasso and the
Frank Lloyd Wright House andother other specialized assets,
and I mean counter to what Ijust said about it being part of
Montana.
I guess, if you call it landownership culture, that you know
you own it and do whatever theheck you want with it total
control.
But on the flip side of thatit's a lot of work and a lot of
(25:22):
hassle and a lot of right, andthere's obviously a lot out
there about generational shift,like experiences over, you know,
outright ownership, kind ofthing.
So then it's like well, can Ihave a partial ownership in
something?
And, yes, I have less control,but I also have less risk, less
maintenance, hassle, work.
Speaker 1 (25:44):
I think that's what's being being played out and
tested is the generational shift, consumer tastes and
preferences.
Do you know?
One thing I run into a lot isguys who want to buy a ranch for
the hunting for the elk and saythat they're going to leverage
it and the annual payment is350,000.
Like I had one guy tell me hegoes Colter, that's a pretty
(26:07):
expensive elk.
Speaker 3 (26:08):
Yeah, exactly it is.
Speaker 1 (26:10):
Well, and he said Colter, Last year I took my
family on hunts guided outfitoutfitted my whole family Alaska
, northern Canada, my my billfor taking my family around the
world was $400,000.
If I were to get into a ranchwhere the P&I if I were to
(26:32):
leverage it, no cash out type ofa deal in the P&I was $400,000
a year.
I'm stuck to that one ranchRight.
Speaker 3 (26:41):
It's kind of like buying a cabin versus a camper
travel trailer.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (26:46):
Yeah, and there's.
There's pluses and minuses foreach.
I know with, anecdotally, myfamily, my in-laws, their cabin
on Holland Lake.
That's where all the memoriesare made.
Right, they're not made in theRV.
Right, yeah, yeah, yeah, andit's sentimental, it's very
there, is.
There's feelings around place,sense of place, sense of
(27:10):
community, sense of going backand the memories made.
It's personal, it's verysubjective and, yeah, you know,
it's a ranch isn't for everyone.
Guided outfit hunts are not foreveryone, right.
They're not for me.
I prefer jumping in the FordRaptor with my friends, with
beer and other things, screamingthrough the sagebrush, doing 65
(27:34):
, chasing down an elk, that Idon't want an outfitted guided
hunt.
Speaker 3 (27:39):
Right, right.
You want the redneck, theauthentic redneckery, I mean.
I don't know about authentic itjust it just is, it just is
yeah.
So you got to freshen me upwith your fractionalized
ownership.
Then what?
What are the amenities and theperks that and investor in that?
(28:04):
Those are benefits.
Speaker 1 (28:06):
So those are not rights.
As with the timeshare youactually you're buying rights
with when you buy into an SPV,you have investor rights.
Speaker 3 (28:19):
You don't have real property rights, and that's what
you're, you are marketing bothinvests, it's, it's investment,
it's an investment and it's alsoa recreational opportunity.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (28:32):
I believe personally that it should always be treated
as an investment first.
Yeah.
I feel that way about myprimary house, my primary
dwelling residence.
Speaker 3 (28:42):
Well, otherwise, you know, you, like we were kind of
saying the $400,000, like youknow, throwing money at, I mean,
there's only a few people thatwill just not care, not care
what the investment value right,throw, correct, basically
millions of dollars of what itwould take and just to play like
that's a, that's a unique.
Speaker 1 (29:00):
That's what we think and a lot of people, I think,
project that onto the wealthyelite, that, oh, they've got
throw away money.
Speaker 3 (29:09):
Right.
Speaker 1 (29:09):
Right, it's an asset.
First it has to have acompelling reason to take money
from somewhere and put it intosomething, because you know
early opportunity costs.
Speaker 3 (29:22):
Yeah, early in my career I was talking to a buyer
you know the classic, you knowout of state, very wealthy out
of state buyer, bought a, boughta place, and I was able to
deeply interview him.
He was great, he, you know, washappy to really talk to me and
so I really, you know, rolled upthe sleeves on it and he,
initially he characterized hisinvest, his purchase, as 75%
(29:45):
recreation, 25% investment.
You know it was the family,recreational aspect was.
You know he was putting thattop on the list and kind of an
investment too, right, right.
But after talking to him for awhile that flipped and he
admitted as such he's like, ohyeah, I'm, you know I'm
definitely not losing money onthis thing.
And he ended up realizing nowthis is, it's an investment that
(30:10):
I get some play value out of,recreational value out of.
And I assume you're kind ofdoing the same thing, because I
know you and I know you knowfocus it's, it's a, it's a
sophisticated investment, has tobe vehicle with some
recreational benefits, benefits.
Yeah, right, that's the model,yeah, and like I know from your
(30:33):
marketing and talking to youthat, making that accessible to
people that like you and I can'tafford to buy our own
multimillion dollar range forthat same.
We might if we could afford it.
We might do that on our own,but as it is we would be stuck
with a 20 acre in one of thosein one of those crappy rural
(30:54):
subdivisions the horse ghettosthat you do not go to unarmed.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (30:59):
If I'm going to take $150,000 in my opportunity as a
horse ghetto, right ruralsubdivision, or a 180th interest
in a 20,000 acre ranch.
You know I'd have to costbenefit and that's apples to
(31:20):
oranges.
But you know, find a way to doyour debits and credits charts,
your pluses and minuses, and seewhich one works out best.
Speaker 3 (31:27):
So here's a question for you as part of that
recreational opportunity tied tothe IEG operation, like you
know getting to help brand andthose kind of things or is it
mostly focused on, like hunting?
Speaker 1 (31:38):
No, those, those enterprises are separate,
separate leases and part of thepartnership agreement, the, the
private placement memorandum.
You, as a limited investor, youhave tax benefits, you have
(32:01):
your tax at passive investmentrates.
You cannot influence thedecisions or the happenings, the
activities around the SPV.
So you couldn't approach themanager, me and say well, I
think we should plant an orchardof apples.
Like you know this, this newgene of apples come along, is
(32:23):
going to kill.
Speaker 3 (32:23):
I think we should do a conservation easement on this
property.
I think we should reintroduce.
Speaker 1 (32:27):
Yeah yeah, you can influence the manager in any way
.
Delaware case law, where so theentities are registered, it's
ranch investor.
One LLC is the SPV that isregistered in Delaware.
Delaware case law states thatyou can't sue the manager for
mismanagement.
You can't sue them for poorperformance.
(32:51):
I want my money back if you hadany part in influencing the
outcome of the economics andfinances of that SPV.
So you also can't go to thetenant and say, why don't you
let me ride with you?
Because you know, things happen.
Speaker 3 (33:06):
Yeah, you might want to think it's funny though,
because I've seen differentsituations like well, like I
knew once a scenario where aretired Chicago couple but they
had they had come to Montanaseasonally like they had
summered in Montana or somethingfor decades love Montana, so he
finally retires and they, theybought a small parcel in a ranch
(33:27):
.
And I don't know if this wasformalized or not.
It might have just been aninformal agreement.
They had a great relationshipwith the overall ranch, but I
think it might have beenformalized.
Some recreational rights.
But the wife especially wassuper horsey, so she got to ride
, she got to gather cows, theygot to help brand, but when they
(33:48):
wanted to and they didn't haveto and they didn't want to, but
so for them it was a dream cometrue.
They've got their 20 acres or10 acres or whatever it was
their retirement dream home anda whole ranch to engage with at
their discretion.
And again, the horse.
The wife was particularlyhorsey so she loved to saddle up
and chase cows with the ranchcrew and I think she did that
(34:11):
quite a bit.
And you know, you know aboutbrandings and stuff like that
and I've been, you know I'vebeen to brandings in Boseman,
outside of Boseman, where halfthe participants are drunk
urbanites, no, urbanites fromBoseman.
Yeah, I knew a ranch that hekind of tapped into that.
Oh, he did like horsemanshipand stuff, so he was getting
money from people for, like youknow, training horses and stuff.
(34:33):
And then these people wouldcome out and brand and have that
quote unquote authenticexperience of branding and your
brandings were very different,yeah.
Getting yelled at by.
Yeah, getting screamed at.
Those are the brand.
Speaker 1 (34:48):
Kicked in the phase, kicked in the.
Speaker 3 (34:50):
Those are the brandings I grew up.
Yeah, I got those stories from.
Speaker 1 (34:54):
There's always yeah, there's always cousin Eddie,
who's way too drunk by 11o'clock.
And then he wants to do all theroping too and he he's just
taken forever to catch a calfand drag it out and someone's
like all right, all right, theowner of these cattle needs to
go tell cousin Eddie to get offthat damn horse.
(35:16):
That he's done.
Speaker 3 (35:17):
I was sure my kneecaps were broken when I was
about 12 at a calf kick both myknees and I went down.
I thought I was.
I thought I was a cripple.
Speaker 1 (35:29):
So here's, here's a story, because I'm supposed to
personalize this podcast, right.
Speaker 3 (35:33):
Oh, really, is that what your team tells you?
Speaker 1 (35:36):
Yep, they tell me, bring in more anecdotes.
Person personalize it.
I forget how old we were middleschool.
I would say that's probablyabout the start of drinking age
in Montana.
When it's just middle school,13, 14, yeah, so at one of my we
used to have the circuit ofbrandings neighbors helping
(35:58):
neighbors going all over thecounty, mostly the guys who had
like over two or 300 head.
They'd bring their crew and turnalong to make it shorter and
then then they would drinkwhiskey all through the night in
a wall tent and play poker and,uh, piss off the wives and have
the unlicensed children drivethem home at three in the
(36:19):
morning.
But it is all county roads, soit doesn't matter, right?
Better than a drunk driver.
Speaker 3 (36:25):
Well, us middle schoolers, unless the, unless
you're sneaking beers too.
Well.
Speaker 1 (36:32):
I'm not sure which was the better driver.
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (36:36):
Beginner's luck.
Speaker 1 (36:40):
At least we still have our vision.
I mean those guys some of themwere sold old and drunk, they
were blind.
They were blind before theywere drunk, right Right.
So we, we decide that well,when no one's looking, we're
going to sneak away a few casesof a beer, probably Bud Light at
the time, I hate to say.
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (37:01):
That was an E on a go in marketing yeah.
Speaker 1 (37:05):
So we, we take these 230 racks of Bud Light and we're
like, well, damn it, we got tokeep these cool somehow so
they're not just foamy and warmwhen the branding's over.
Right, we need them cool so wecan drink them when the
branding's over and go ride ourbicycles and fish and hunt and
shit too.
But we threw them in theirrigation ditch and we're like
(37:28):
that makes perfect sense.
Speaker 3 (37:29):
Right, Keep cold water.
Well, the water.
Some might not know that thewater in Montana tends to be
pretty frigid.
Speaker 1 (37:34):
Well, and we were two , three miles from the mountains
.
Speaker 3 (37:38):
Yeah, so cold, yeah, super cold water, yep.
Speaker 1 (37:43):
And and yeah, the cardboard box did not last.
And a few days later his dadwas out irrigating and just
finds, you know, beer cans allover his, you know in the orange
canvas dam and spread out overthe field.
Speaker 2 (38:01):
And yeah, we got a call, they knew exactly where
that beer was from.
Speaker 3 (38:06):
Yeah, yeah, so you know, agricultural recreation is
a thing too.
Getting, getting to play cowboy, I mean hell, you could come up
with a whole Yellowstone thing,you could I, and I prefer to
just leave that to theindividual.
Speaker 1 (38:23):
It's all subjective, it's you're limited by your
imagination, your creativity andsome of the liability in terms
of use and risk.
But when it comes to this issueis the hardest to figure out
when fractionalizing a ranch,because the reason, as we have
said, the 80% of the reason youbuy a ranch is for recreational
purposes, exclusivity.
(38:44):
You don't want to be out therewith John Q public.
So how do you one?
You're trying, I'm trying tooptimize for two things.
One, you want people to come inat a higher investment than the
minimum.
So you don't want a bunch ofpeople doing the minimum $50,000
.
If it's 50 or the minimum 100or 150, whatever it is, you want
(39:09):
people to come in a littlehigher.
So trying to optimize for that.
But then this idea of fair,equitable, egalitarian, who who
gets the use?
When that's the hardest issueto crack and that's what I
worked on who's the better shot?
Speaker 3 (39:30):
Who can drive better under adverse conditions?
Speaker 1 (39:34):
And a special tag if you have.
And they've all say most ofthem are out of status and
they've built up their pointsand they've applied for this
unique tag in your area.
They want to make damn surethat they have the ranch
themselves when it comes time tohunt.
And so how do you, how do youmanage for that group program
(39:58):
and allocate those days as abenefit, not a right?
How do you do that In a waythat's also best for the
investment, when the manager isincentivized by optimizing
returns?
Speaker 3 (40:13):
So you have a lot of interests there, right, right,
yeah, I think that's kind ofwhat interests.
What makes it interesting to meis, yeah, it's kind of a case
study and looking at managingrights differently.
You know, I mean obviously wegot the standard model, own
outright, but we've got otherthings I mean obviously
conservation, easements anddifferent.
Speaker 1 (40:35):
You know, unique rights situations, I guess you'd
say, but yours is highly uniqueand one of my personal values
is bringing more people out here, people who are invested, who
have an alignment of interestwith the community, the ecology,
and it's about a free marketsolution to compete with locked
(40:59):
gates on trophy ranches To alocked gate that benefits one
person, one family.
Let's bring more people out.
Speaker 3 (41:05):
Well, actually, you know what else comes to my mind.
I remember the podcast you didwith Dallas right, dallas Mount
who owns Ranch ManagementConsultants?
Yeah yeah Him, because you guyswere talking.
I loved that podcast actuallyit's one of my favorites and you
were talking about this issueof you know, out of state
ownership and trophy ownershipand like effect on culture and
(41:26):
he threw out he's like you know,some of the multi-generational
generational places are the mostinefficient worst managed,
poorly managed.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So not only the locked gate forkind of trophy kind of thing,
but what about the locked gatesfor just the old, you know, the
multi-generational that'sstarving to death financially
(41:47):
and maybe even culturally?
Right, they're trying to holdon to.
This entity.
I know that's part of yourthing too is how to provide
value in different ways and howto monetize the resource in
different ways that are creativeand meet needs, you know, and
that model, the old familyownership, when the other pieces
aren't there, to make thatplace thrive economically,
(42:10):
ecologically and otherwise.
Right, Maybe an alternative,like maybe an old time family
place, diversifying and maybethat allowing that family to
actually prosper on that placein a different way than trying
to cover all the costs on theirown.
You know, try to try to run acow outfit to pay for the place,
which is almost impossible.
That's Will.
Speaker 1 (42:30):
Harris of White Oaks Pastures.
He's been on the Rogan podcasttwice now.
Speaker 3 (42:35):
This is the Southern guy right, yep, joeja, isn't he
like Colonel Sanders kind?
Speaker 1 (42:40):
of oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3 (42:42):
He's very smooth, yeah.
Speaker 1 (42:44):
Super articulate, though really Incredible.
They actually, him and hisdaughter might be coming on this
week.
Speaker 3 (42:49):
Oh my gosh.
Speaker 1 (42:50):
Yeah, we've been in talks.
She sounds like she's actuallytaken over.
Will might be retiring.
Wow, might need to cut that out.
Speaker 3 (42:59):
Transition play you just leaked, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (43:05):
So I'll probably check on that first before we
release that one, but they'regoing to come back on this
podcast.
But Will and I disagreed abouthaving specialists and I was of
the I still am of the mind thatyou should have a livestock
specialist and ecology landspecialist.
(43:26):
You know, the livestockspecialist is trained in animal
science, has a degree in animalscience.
You need, you need finance andaccounting.
On my family place that's me mybrother, wyatt, is the Oklahoma
State grad with animal science.
You need someone who's goodwith equipment that's my other
brother, right.
And then I think today you needhunting, recreation, tourism,
(43:52):
and we are, we.
We say sexist things on here,but a lot of times that falls on
the wife.
It's a good enterprise, youknow, a well paying enterprise.
Speaker 3 (44:01):
You need a semi expert on programs and
legislation and regulation.
If you want to go down thatroute, I mean, don't you have to
?
I mean, aren't you sure whatthey want to?
Speaker 1 (44:10):
Yeah, I mean I guess you have to to compete with your
neighbor, to compete with theUnited States, you have to take
the government money and thisNGOs that are out there.
Speaker 3 (44:21):
You're right.
But I mean, even if you don't,you know, participate in those
programs, I mean it's stillmight affect you if you've got
endangered species or certainlyif you got sage grouse or I mean
it's not fully optional, isn'tit?
In some ways, I mean you got toat the very least sort of be up
on some things, because it canreally harm you, so will was of
(44:41):
the mindset that specialists,they optimize for they're,
they're siloed, they're monovariate, they're only good in
some areas.
Speaker 1 (44:52):
You know right, it's holistic and I do believe in
thinking and acting holistically, but I also think we should be
the best at some things rightand so he was of the mindset.
No, he's anti specialist, I'mpro specialist.
I do think on Today's ranches,when it comes to that
recreational Opportunity that isbeing monetized, that there
(45:17):
should be consultants in placewho are thinking about well,
this is a cash cow now, so whywould we not feed that cash cow?
Speaker 3 (45:25):
What came up to my mind immediately was I used to
turn my own wrenches.
In fact, I rebuilt the car whenI was 19.
I used to turn all my ownwrenches on my cars and but then
, you know, I got kids and I'mtrying to build a career and I
was trying to put a frost plugand I in a radiator and with
antifreeze in my face, in myeyes and almost stripping the
(45:46):
threads and Two hours in on ajob that would have taken a
legitimate, legit mechanic 20minutes.
That was when a switch flippedfor me like I'm doing more harm
Than good here and of course, Ihad that scrappy attitude and no
money.
So it's like I got to doeverything, but at some point
you realize you're doing nothingwell and I I'm actually still
(46:07):
dealing with this in my businesslike I'm really.
I think my check-in when westarted was Most of my time
lately has been really focusingon building my team and I'm
starting to feel, you know, andI've there's been, there's been
tasks I have struggled somightily to get out from under
and that's it's not worth mytime, like there's their jobs
that should be able to be farmedout.
I've struggled to do that butMakes no sense for me to.
(46:30):
And I love, you know, I lovemapping, I love GIS still, and
part of me could just be in thesilo and do GIS because I like
it that much, but that's notwhere my time is best spent by
any stretch, you know.
So it's, it's an inefficiencyat the least.
Yeah, me doing that.
Speaker 1 (46:44):
But yeah, you didn't have the competitive advantage
To fix your own car.
Someone else with the shopdowntown had all the tools, had
all the training, had all theknowledge, expertise, focus Yep,
they, they had the competitiveadvantage.
If you didn't have a job, ifyou were unemployed and broke,
(47:05):
you would have the comparativeadvantage because your
opportunity cost would be zero.
Speaker 3 (47:10):
Yeah, I was gonna say because you don't have any
opportunity.
Speaker 1 (47:12):
Yeah, so you, you, in that situation, you to fix your
own car if you're, if you'rejobless.
You'd have the comparison, butyou know I do get the appeal.
Speaker 3 (47:21):
I got to admit there are part of me that missed those
days because I was, you know, Iwas growing food, I was fixing
cars, we were raising our ownkids.
We were frickin damn nearmaking our own clothes.
That was I was.
I was part of the Kind ofhippie homesteader.
Was the fantasy build my ownhouse, raise my own kids, raise
my own food, fix my own cars,right, super?
(47:44):
It was really captivated bySelf-reliance and but I remember
, boy, I think having kidsreally started to turn that
around.
It's like Jesus, where is,where's the nanny.
Where's?
Where's grandma and grandpa?
Where's the nanny?
Where's the bookkeeper?
Where's the right Like?
I think I don't.
For me, anyway, getting older,the specialists starts to kid
(48:06):
and then, and you know,developing a career when you
start to build what?
What's relative incredibly highvalue relative to when you had
no marketable skills.
Speaker 1 (48:20):
I'm almost of the different mindset now that I
have two girls, two months andthree years old, that I'm I'm
kind of almost getting back tothe point where, like I need to
take on more prepping.
Like.
I should go bury a storagecontainer, get my brother's
excavator Out on my parentsranch and start loading that
(48:41):
thing.
For you know, I watched Leavethe world behind on Netflix.
Speaker 3 (48:48):
Yeah, I saw that too, and and now with the new movie.
Speaker 1 (48:51):
Civil War coming out this spring.
It's got me in the mindset like, hey, I need to be a little
more sovereign and self-reliantand I might I might move away
from specials.
I should maybe fix my own damncar.
Speaker 3 (49:05):
Yeah, well, there's an extreme there, if you know,
and we all know specialists thatyou know can do essentially
nothing else but their specialtythat's pretty anemic.
And my, you know what I mean.
It's there's something aboutbeing you know, and I I don't
really turn my wrenches anymoreand stuff like that, but I sure
can you know, I, you know, and Ican change a tire, I can change
my.
Well, I can, you know, and notbeing able to do those stuff
(49:27):
would not feel good, you know.
And you and you wonder aboutyounger generation.
That seem, seems like ourculture now maybe feels like
just pushing people right intothat way of life, rather than
being broke for ten years andhaving to figure everything out
and do everything yourself.
I mean, there's a lot ofcharacter building in that.
And, and you know, back to thedebate with sorry, what's his
(49:48):
name?
From the south will.
Harris yeah, I mean that's.
Isn't that a just a steadfastrural value of being able to do?
Anything.
Speaker 1 (50:01):
Like a judgment of character yeah, yeah, yeah yeah
and I mean I can attest one ofmy Like identity crises of the
many long which one are wetalking about?
Speaker 3 (50:14):
Any more context with that coming from a?
Speaker 1 (50:16):
frugal Dutch family, homesteader family, which comes
with its own culture of youdon't pay anyone to do anything,
you do everything yourself,right?
The first time I paid someoneto change the oil on my vehicle.
Mm-hmm.
I Sears.
I don't know if I slept thatnight.
Yeah, I had such Like yeah, Iguess maybe insecurities around,
(50:36):
am I gonna be disavowed?
Am I less of a man, right?
Speaker 3 (50:40):
Am I am I?
Speaker 1 (50:41):
am I not the, you know, the farmer, the rancher,
the do-it-yourself, get it done?
Yeah, pick yourself up by yourbootstraps, because I didn't
change my damn oil.
I paid somebody else.
Speaker 3 (50:53):
Well, you know you're making me think too, and you
know my career is in Rant, youknow ranch appraisal and I mean
Montana land sources.
You know more of a digitalDecks, desktop kind of thing.
But I take great pride and youknow I can show up on the ranch
and I Can do just about anything.
I mean, not I did, I didn'tgrow up on a ranch, I grew up,
(51:14):
you know, peripherally.
You know like like settling ahorse is a bit of a stretch for
me, but I can ride, I can.
I can't rope, so there'sthere's limits, but I can help
sword, I can help brand, I canchange a tire, even maybe on a
tractor.
I mean.
You know what I mean like thatkind of, but what about?
Reconciling the bank statement.
Speaker 1 (51:35):
Oh Jesus, if we call those soft skills or what, but
you know those are just asimportant as fixing the
hydraulics on the tractor.
Speaker 3 (51:44):
Yeah, you know, I mean this is kind of a segue,
but I feel like growing up inMontana.
So I grew up as a city kid byMontana standards.
I mean I'm a Billings kid,right, yeah, but and I don't
know if I was highly unique, itdidn't seem like it.
It seemed like all my friendsare the same way.
We all were tied to ranchesoutside of town.
We were at brandings and wenthunting and fishing and, looking
(52:04):
back, it was kind of a greatLifestyle because it was like
the.
It was both.
I had foot in both worlds, youknow like you know all the town
stuff.
But and it was a littledifferent back then.
It was easier.
I mean we still have prettygood access to Open space and
whatnot if we want, but thingshave gotten busier, things have
gotten, you know.
Speaker 1 (52:24):
Does it feel like you're further from the ranch?
Speaker 3 (52:28):
You in my like work and career now?
Speaker 1 (52:31):
yeah, just I mean not not geographically, not
proximity, but just where yourlife is Does it feel like it
takes more effort, more time toget out there and do those
things?
That you're further from that?
You're like more removed,further removed from that
culture, that experience?
Speaker 3 (52:48):
a little bit, but yeah, my artwork keeps us pretty
tied to that.
I mean, even even the ranchbroker community yeah right, is
pretty ranchy and all that kindof stuff I do.
You know I miss that's what Imiss about Riding appraisals,
because I haven't been ridingappraisals, I've been focused on
Montana Land Source, which ismore of a desk, desk duty kind
of thing.
So yeah, I'm at the desk andthe computer a lot more.
(53:09):
I miss the Inspections,inspecting ranches and going out
and finding sales.
And you know it's funny, I domore ranch to.
I jump at ranch touropportunities now because I I
mean in the past I was ranchtouring all the time.
Right, I used to roll, you knowI someone tried to get me to go
to some kind of structuredranch tour and it's like I do
this every day, like why thehell would I do that?
(53:29):
now I'm like, ooh, a ranch tour.
But I'm actually pretty excitedbecause I do think I'm making
headway on getting myself out ofsome of this work that's desk
related and I do want to do.
I want to go out and inspectthe ranches that are on the
market and, you know, call youup and say, hey, take me, what
do you think about taking me toyour next listing?
I'll, I'll do some content andyou know that kind of thing.
Speaker 1 (53:52):
I think you should get a little back to the land.
It's almost like bringing ananecdotal experience, Because
you're you're all data drivenright and your now.
It's data also Needs to bebalanced with anecdotes, so if
you show up, what you see inperson on foot is Completely
(54:14):
different than what you see fromGoogle Earth.
And, being average, I'm abrochure.
Speaker 3 (54:18):
Yeah, yeah, I think you should.
Speaker 1 (54:20):
I think you should do more.
Speaker 3 (54:21):
I'm excited.
I'm excited for that and even,not even just the ranch.
You know the ranch itself, buteven more networking
opportunities, like I went tothe last day of the stock
growers, you know, at thenorthern and was.
I don't know why I wassurprised, but how many people I
knew there and how many I meanclients, but also you know
customer clients, but also just,you know it's, it's, it's.
(54:41):
Even though our population hasreally swelled and things are
changing, it's still a smallworld, you know, especially here
, we still have that.
Speaker 1 (54:50):
Oh, very so by and large still just one long main
street.
Speaker 3 (54:55):
I saw, I think, an ad or something or a post for a
winter fair popped up.
You know if in Lewiston and Igot a little, or oh, I should go
to.
You know I've done that inyears past and had a good time.
Yeah, stuff like that get outin the country more.
Speaker 1 (55:08):
Yeah, especially as Western Montana becomes much
more distant.
Speaker 3 (55:14):
Yeah, eastern Montana right, right, yeah, so no, I
think this industry, thankfully,even when I spend a god-awful
amount of time, you know, at thecomputer, still, even just the
people I talked to on the phoneand the meetings I go to and
that kind of stuff keeps me abit connected, you know and I do
(55:36):
, I still am out on the road, Istill do Go look at stuff you
know, and travel.
Speaker 1 (55:41):
Well, I encourage anyone to check out Montana land
source.
You have awesome updates,statistics.
Appreciate that.
Keep.
Keep checking in seeing wherethis market's going.
As we enter the Christmas breakof 2023.
Let's see what the new year hasto offer us.
Any final thoughts?
Speaker 3 (56:00):
Yeah, I mean, I think it's gonna be calm for a while,
I think.
I think we're in the calm afterthe storm, you know, and that's
just the way it's gonna beother than the trophy ranches.
Yeah, but if you got a trophyranch it's just gonna fly off
the shelves apparently.
Speaker 1 (56:15):
We'll see what happens.
These interest rates arecertainly throwing a wrench in a
lot of, a lot of brokersbusiness, which always surprises
me.
Speaker 3 (56:24):
I mean, with the level of cash buying, you would
think that the high-level Landmarket in Montana would be
insulated from that, becausethere's very few Finance-based
purchasing but we're not talkingabout that leverage, we're
talking about opportunity costright, right, yeah, but I just I
that's.
It fascinates me because againa Tertiary view.
(56:45):
You could easily say oh,interest, what, what?
What interest rates have to dowith Ranches in Montana, which
are almost always bought withcash.
Speaker 1 (56:53):
Yeah well, I mean, when CD rates are 3%, you'd
rather have fun with your money.
Yeah, you don't want it in a CDyet 3%, but when they're up at 5
and a half and 6, then then afun little ranch.
You know you have to have thosetough conversations with your
wife.
Well, thanks for coming on.
(57:18):
Yeah, thanks, good to be back.
Anyone who has feedback,comments, questions, be sure to
reach out to me or Andy Montana.
Land source and ranch investor.
Thanks for tuning in.
We at ranch investor are veryinterested in hearing your
thoughts, your opinion, yourwants, desires, hopes and dreams
(57:41):
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Speaker 4 (57:51):
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the first time I paid someone to change the oil on my
vehicle.
I I seriously I don't know if Islept that night.
Speaker 3 (00:07):
I had such like I don't know?
Speaker 1 (00:10):
I guess maybe insecurities around, am I going
to be disavowed?
Am I less of a man?
Welcome to the Ranch Investorpodcast.
I am Colter DeVries, your threeyear host.
I'm an accredited landconsultant with the Realtor Land
Institute and an accreditedfarm manager with ASFMRA
American Society of FarmManagers and Rural Appraisers.
Speaker 4 (00:32):
The Ranch Investor podcast is the most downloaded
and informative industryspecific content that intrigues
while entertains.
Speaker 1 (00:41):
Before we get started , as usual, I'd love to hear
your feedback.
So if you have a recommendedguest or a subject, please let
me know.
I'm back.
I'm back.
It's been a while it has been.
Speaker 3 (00:55):
I've been back too, developing my business,
developing my team, deep intoteam development, basically,
which is pretty exciting towatch.
Speaker 1 (01:06):
Is it hard to keep up with the Montana ranch market
right now?
Speaker 3 (01:09):
You know, it kind of felt this week.
Maybe it's just because I wasback in town, you know,
generally, no, it's been prettyslow, been pretty pretty.
Last week was pretty slow.
But I was doing some catch uptoday and thinking, boy, it
feels like things are maybeheating up.
But I'm on the site right now357 listings, that's right where
(01:33):
we've been all year sincesummer.
Speaker 1 (01:37):
Headed into the Christmas break.
Yeah, and normally we do have alull, a winter freeze.
Speaker 3 (01:44):
Yeah, although sometimes they're depending on,
like the year.
Sometimes there's a littlespike like regime change, if a
new presidency is coming inbullshit.
Speaker 1 (01:54):
Oh, I was waiting to see what happens with the
election.
Yeah, exactly, yeah.
Speaker 3 (01:57):
So fires and sellers both and there have been times
over time where there's eitheran actual or perceived like
taxation change, right, likechange in the state of 1031.
Speaker 1 (02:11):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (02:11):
Capital gains.
So sometimes you see, sometimesyou see motivation at the end
of the year.
I don't think there's anythingthis year doing that.
Speaker 1 (02:20):
Well, I like to tell people in passing at the grocery
store who ask me what's it like, what's the ranch market doing,
how's business?
I say I'm no longer competingwith other brokers, I'm
competing with the banks.
So the banks offerings yep,5.5% risk free.
More people seem inclined toput that money whether it's cash
(02:45):
, you know, or capitalizing onstocks, put that into CDs and at
5.5% risk free, that is whatyour annual return, annualized
return historically, is onranches, and those are not risk
free.
Speaker 3 (03:01):
So alternative investments competing with real
estate.
Speaker 1 (03:04):
Yeah it's yeah, not alternative, it's just the cost
of capital, the.
You know, if you're going toget 2% on an annual yield, which
is best case scenario, then 4%appreciation annualized there's
your 6% annual return.
You could, if you think in theslightest way that this market
(03:25):
is top heavy, that you're asAndy Ron says or guest today as
he says, if you're pre-payinginflation, if you're buying in
appreciation, then yeah, you'regoing to be inclined to just go
CDs today.
And I say I'm competing withthose damn bankers.
Speaker 3 (03:42):
I don't see any deals out there.
I don't see any low hangingfruit in their ranch investment
market right now.
I made an offer on one.
Speaker 1 (03:51):
Yeah, personally, really yeah For the online
syndication, uh-huh.
So I figured this one's been onthe market a while, it's got
some hair on it and so it missedthe best market in history.
It's been out there over twoyears and I was like, oh they,
even though they haven't done aprice reduction, which is a red
(04:11):
flag, I was like, well, it'sworth taking a shot.
I mean, it's my own time inwriting up this offer.
And.
I need to load it withcontingencies for online
syndication, because I still gotto register the offering with
the SEC and write up the PPM.
Speaker 3 (04:28):
And then, that is to say, have a legal entity that's
going to buy something.
Speaker 1 (04:31):
Well, I've got all the.
The back end is completelyformed.
I've got the infrastructurebuilt, even the back office for
fund management for K ones, eventhe accreditation process, the
approval process, the escrowfunding all the entire
infrastructure is built.
It's finding a decent productto offer and I thought this one
(04:55):
was worth my time and they, theyjust flat out rejected it,
ghosted me.
It was like I felt like I wasin the dating pool again and in
my, my swipe left went nowhere,didn't even respond, didn't even
respond.
Speaker 3 (05:12):
Was it?
Was it a real, real low baller?
Speaker 1 (05:15):
No, I actually wrote it.
What I thought was five to 10%higher than anyone else in the
market.
Wow Cause I was like, if I'mgoing to ask for all of these
contingencies, they're going towant to see what's in it for me.
Speaker 3 (05:31):
And so so you did.
It is an unusual level ofcontingencies, and I'm
absolutely standard Okay.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (05:37):
So yeah, and one with hair on it that missed the best
market in history.
Why not take a shot at that one?
Speaker 3 (05:43):
I wonder if the seller has that perspective on
their listing.
Speaker 1 (05:47):
Well in that.
So even the listing broker,which I'm not going to name
names.
Speaker 3 (05:52):
They ghosted me and I I we should have extra content
for pay.
Speaker 1 (05:58):
We should have a next hour and share all the names
Patreon account for for gettingthe real dirt.
Speaker 3 (06:06):
You got to go to the dark web, to see it.
If you want the real dirt.
This is the kind of thing wedream about.
Speaker 1 (06:16):
Yeah.
Although then, uh, launch intoa tangent, then I feel like we
might be abusing that privilege,that power, and going on a
canceling campaign just outthere, just canceling people
left and right.
Speaker 3 (06:31):
That's the problem.
It's hard to cancel people inour industry, exactly.
Speaker 1 (06:35):
Yes.
Very no one for better or worse.
No one wants to put their nameon a complaint to the department
of labor.
Speaker 3 (06:42):
Yeah, and what would that do anyway?
Speaker 1 (06:44):
Yeah, so I made the offer and I actually gave them a
week and a half to consider it,because it was loaded with
contingencies.
Speaker 3 (06:53):
Can you share some of those just broad strokes?
Speaker 1 (06:55):
Yeah, one was contingent upon raising.
So the the ranch, I made anoffer of 5.28 and the
contingency one of thecontingencies was contingent
upon actually raising 5.5 viaonline syndication.
Speaker 3 (07:12):
I mean that's that's a unique funding mechanism, but
it's not unusual to have fundingin general be a contingency, so
that's not too crazy yeah.
Speaker 1 (07:22):
That was just a basic financing contingency
essentially.
Yeah.
And I mean that's the way somedo diligence and that is another
basic contingency inspection.
Yeah, and so I didn't thinkthey were out of line.
I did ask for six months to putthis together and I gave them a
week and a half to consider it.
The listing broker ghosted me,didn't even tell me verbally,
(07:45):
declined.
So the due diligence is sixmonths.
The due diligence was onlythree months.
Okay, that's not.
The financing contingency wassix months.
Speaker 3 (07:56):
Okay, so that's.
That's unusual, that's a longtime.
Speaker 1 (07:59):
Yeah, well, when you're doing something new and
different.
Yeah, proven the concept, the,the minimum viable product, the
proof of concept, beta test here.
Speaker 3 (08:07):
But like you said, they missed the, they missed the
market.
As far as I mean, the market is, we can talk, we can get into
this.
You know it varies by propertytype and whatever, but the
market, the market is at theleast flat, if not declining on
most properties.
Speaker 1 (08:23):
What about the trophy properties?
Speaker 3 (08:24):
Yeah, that's a different story.
Speaker 1 (08:25):
Yeah, this is not a trophy property, so it and the
reason I was.
But does the seller know intheir mind it's probably got
gold and lithium underneath ofit.
Speaker 3 (08:37):
They're surely they're.
Listing broker didn't take outenough ads in the Wall Street
Journal.
That's why.
That's why it didn't sell yes.
Speaker 1 (08:44):
Yeah, well, and I'm, I mean, I have my opinions of
his, his performance in customerservice as well, and I I'm sure
to be critiquing my peers, mycompetition, that's not
professional, but I, you know, Idon't ghost anyone.
Right.
At the very minimum.
(09:04):
I've never done this, but atthe very minimum you can at
least send someone a text andsay right, verbally declined.
Yeah.
So I had to follow up and tryand try to get ahold of the
listing broker.
Speaker 3 (09:16):
I feel like you're going to slip.
It was editing available, yeah.
Speaker 1 (09:22):
That's right, Ray play.
Pay close attention.
Speaker 3 (09:27):
Was it going to be?
Speaker 1 (09:28):
a beepers or just going to cut it out.
And uh, so this one actuallydid check some of the boxes.
Location, elk scenery, that'spretty much it.
And there was so value add.
There's a play for value adthat I could see.
I know the neighbors, I knowthe area, it's my home area.
(09:49):
So you know, I felt like I hada competitive and comparative
advantage there to come in, stepin and add value to the place.
Well, if you get it bought atthe right price, Right, and so
no, they you ask about does theseller know that it's not a
trophy property?
When they ghosted me and thenfinally, after like eight missed
(10:11):
calls over days, it tookprobably two and a half weeks to
hear back from the listingbroker.
I did get a text.
Oh sorry, Super busy.
They said the price was too low, super busy, not selling
anything.
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (10:28):
And super busy in this volume yeah, deprived.
Speaker 1 (10:31):
Yeah, don't bullshit a bullshitter telling me you're
super busy.
I know otherwise, right, and soI wanted to be like well, mr
Broker, I didn't, you know, Iwanted to say this over the
phone text message.
I just said, okay, thanks.
But I wanted to be like, okay.
I think what the situation iseither your seller is shit,
(10:52):
you're listing a shit, or you'redoing a shit job.
Pick two of them.
It's got to be two out of three.
Speaker 3 (11:01):
Yeah, it's.
It never ceases to amaze me,the lack of professionalism.
Actually, you know, I mean I,of course I tell people, just
like a lot of industries, youknow, 20%, 80% of the work's
done by 20% of the people.
I think it might be more like90, 10 in real estate,
absolutely.
Speaker 1 (11:18):
And I look back on the craziness of 2020 and 2021.
And I know that I wasn'tperfect with customer service
and professionalism and I do.
I think there are protocols andand expected procedure,
expected professionalism that Iprobably fell short in a lot of
ways, but it was crazy back thenRight Crazy on my end, crazy
(11:43):
buyers we had.
I had a lot of preppers and alot of tire kickers,
disingenuous people watching theTV series Yellowstone.
I shouldn't create excuses.
I do know that during thecraziness, the frenzy, that I
wasn't perfect by any means, buttoday I think today's a really
good opportunity to be asprofessional.
Speaker 3 (12:07):
Well, you know, I mean, I spend an inordinate
amount of time Montana LandSource and you know that's the
value proposition.
You know we track stuff down,we check everything.
You know what the my data onMontana Land Source is not
broker managed, which I thinksets me apart from any other.
Speaker 1 (12:25):
You can't be influenced.
Speaker 3 (12:26):
Yeah, any other site you go to and so in an
inordinate amount of timetracking stuff down, just lots
of time and the hell of it is is, you know, probably probably
six, at least 60%, maybeknocking on 70% of the brokers
out there are crap.
So you know it's just dealingwith legitimately unprofessional
people.
Then you get into the trueprofessionals and the reality is
(12:49):
a lot of them are really busyand really struggle to right the
producers legitimately strugglewith you know busyness and I'm
always not.
I feel like I've got great.
You know relationships andpeople wanting to talk to me and
stuff.
But you know I'm not a cashbuyer either, right.
So those those hot times, rightthey're, they're hopping,
(13:10):
actually selling stuff andmaking money, and I'm not, I
don't represent that.
I'm more like a long-term, youknow relationship kind of thing.
But so between busy guys,between the ones that are super
busy and hard to get a hold ofand the ones that think they're
busy, I don't know what theythink, but they just suck.
Speaker 1 (13:30):
I'd like to see a case study between volume
brokerages that have lots andlots of listings, volume dealers
versus the bespoke boutiquetype.
So in small independent offices, maybe one man shows, like
myself.
Well, I'd like to hear see acase study done on customer
service and I'm not going tomention there.
Speaker 3 (13:53):
I'm not going to mention a name either, but
there's several volume dealers.
Well, I just noticed thisactually recently.
Speaker 1 (13:58):
I hadn't really thought about it and there's
even more independent guys.
Yeah, we should be customerservice.
Speaker 3 (14:03):
Yeah, but there's a, there was, there's a, an outfit
that was was the volume dealer,I would say, in Montana for
years and they, they, theyclearly had a model.
They'd take any listing, Ithink under almost any
circumstances.
They just, you know that's whatwas their business model more
of a, more of a volume and youknow certain percentage is going
(14:23):
to hit.
So that was their model andthey dominated volume across the
state and they've almostdisappeared.
Their volume has gone way down.
I don't know what's happened.
Ebs and flows, yeah, I don't.
I don't think it's really themarket as much as I'm just
guessing some kind of internalshift with that, with that firm.
I would I would guess, I don'treally know.
(14:44):
Change of leadership andstrategy, or working in the CRM,
like the founders you know,have kind of moved on or I don't
know something.
I don't know, but I justnoticed that the other day.
It's like, oh right, that thatoutfit used to dominate volume,
um, but you could, you couldpredict a hyper to your point
about.
You know data or stats on that.
(15:04):
They had a high amount, theyhad a high volume, but they had
a high fallout rate, right?
So a high percentage of whatthey took on didn't end up
selling and that, that, that isexpensive when you're just your
overheads.
Speaker 1 (15:18):
You need the transactions to first reach your
break even and and you'retaking on listings that aren't
bringing in the income and youhave that high marketing budget.
That's fixed cost for a lot ofus.
Speaker 3 (15:29):
Well, and you know, another thing I'll share
actually, my business is down alittle bit for the first time.
I've always and I well, I saydown, I'd say rate of growth is
down.
I've always been growing but myrate of growth is down and I
think it's.
There's been a handful ofone-off guys and retirements
kind of I might I mightcategorize as semi-early or
(15:52):
right.
Yeah, they got a big win andthis is a good time to go.
Speaker 1 (15:55):
They're going, barry Sanders going out on top.
Speaker 3 (15:58):
One great client and you know I, you know I love my,
I love my good clients.
I mean, some of these guys calland they're just as apologetic
as hell, you know, just like, ah, idiot, so sorry, blah, blah.
I was like, hey man, you knowyou're, you're retiring, you're
moving on, you're cuttingexpenditure.
Right, I get it, I'm, I can becheap, you know.
But one guy basically was likeyeah, you know, I think I'm kind
(16:20):
of out, think I'm kind ofretiring, and can I pull the
plug?
Of course I say yes, but then acouple months later he's like
ah, got, you know, got a got alittle deal flow kicking up, so
I need you back.
Yeah.
And he was.
He was apologetic then too, andit's like hey, that's why I got
month to month subscriptions.
Jump on, jump off every othermonth if you want.
I'm I'm good with that.
Speaker 1 (16:41):
You know Well, as we enter the Christmas break here
and we've been talking about thedifference between trophy
ranches and how there is aplateauing of seemingly
everything else what's going onwith the trophy ranches.
There are some big listingsthat hit the market week by week
(17:01):
and and they do sell.
Speaker 3 (17:03):
Yeah, there's been some big sales.
I mean CA is is privately.
Speaker 1 (17:09):
Yeah, that was like a consolidation of a of a prior
syndication.
Speaker 3 (17:13):
Yeah, so it was a sale, resale.
You know, the whole, the wholeplace sold, of course, just a
few years ago and that was, thatwas our record breaking.
And then the, and then it wasthe, the main unit, the main
because it had multiple units,so it's the main unit that just
resold.
And you know, we can't sharepercentages and, honestly, well,
you, you, throughoutappreciation, rate yourself that
(17:34):
you had determined on that, butwhat'd you say?
30%, 30 or even a little morein two years, two years, yeah,
yeah, so that does not representthe bulk of the market, I would
say in any way, but we seem tosee these because you know that
it's just a highly, highlyunique.
You know there's only a few ofthose.
Speaker 1 (17:56):
They can't normalize that Right and I would say
something like that 30%annualized return on two years
is more of like an opportunisticflip.
It's not an annualized ride.
The appreciation Right, right,that was very, very unique
property that it's like a MonetWe've said it before, kind of a
once in a lifetime.
Speaker 3 (18:17):
You know, these properties are kind of once in a
lifetime.
Well, right yeah, until twoyears go by.
Speaker 1 (18:24):
Once in a lifetime, every two years, especially for
these old guys buying almostdefinitely once in a lifetime.
Speaker 3 (18:30):
Yeah, right, like Murdoch.
What was he knocking on?
80 years old?
Yeah, a lot.
Um yeah, in South West Montana,I mean.
Speaker 1 (18:39):
Speaking of syndication, I see that a Frank
Lloyd White right.
Frank Lloyd right.
You know the architect.
Yeah, he's known for what is itModernism?
Speaker 3 (18:51):
Yeah I think something like that right, a
very modern contemporarymodernism, or his own style.
Speaker 1 (18:56):
You know, it's Frank.
Speaker 3 (18:58):
Lloyd.
Frank Lloyd Wright style yeah,Define, he's defined a style
yeah.
Speaker 1 (19:03):
So there's a Frank Lloyd Wright house not selling
on the market and for what?
You know what the seller isasking?
And I see in an article thatthey are going to fractionalize
it Wow, and they're going tosyndicate it.
They're out, they have sixunits.
So you, you buy a unit in anSPV special purpose vehicle, the
(19:28):
LLC that owns the house.
Speaker 3 (19:29):
So you're buying a sixth.
You're buying a sixth of ahouse, Yep.
So it's going to be like atimes like a.
Frank Lloyd Wright timeshare.
Well, it is.
Speaker 1 (19:36):
Picasso has the same model.
Picasso, one of the formerfounders of Zillow, started
Picasso and that's one eighthinterest in a second home or a
vacation home, and when theystarted the minimum was 350,000,
but they also ran into lowsupply, as I'm struggling with
low options, low inventory, andnow the minimum I don't know
(19:59):
where it's at 450,000.
500,000.
If you want a one eighthinterest in a home, and it's it
is you pick the home that you'regoing to be buying into, the
LLC, the SPV, so it's Malibu,aspen, ibiza, london, whatever.
And that's what this, theseller is trying to do.
(20:23):
They're, they're, they'resaying, well, we can't get our
price for the buyer, let'sfractionalize it for a higher
value.
Speaker 3 (20:34):
I mean, haven't timeshares kind of become a joke
of of an investment, right,aren't they?
Aren't they the case study fora bad way to spend your money?
I mean, you'd think so I'venever looked into it because
there's so much negativityaround them.
Well, there's ads for multiplecompanies for getting you out of
your timeshare Because like,yeah, it's a contract, it's
(20:56):
you're actually buying aproperty, right.
Speaker 1 (20:59):
Did you know that you have a right to time?
Yeah, I would figure so.
So, you have a, an interest, atitle, you have an interest on
the real property in a timeshare.
So I mean their, their rules orregulations are so much
different because you have to belicensed to sell timeshares
(21:21):
specifically, right.
Right, that sounds familiar andthat's probably what you're
talking about.
Sounds familiar and that'sprobably because you know so
many people got fleeced, right.
Speaker 3 (21:30):
Regulation.
Let's just create a specialcertification for this, yeah.
Speaker 1 (21:35):
Sector.
Yeah, I mean again, I've I'venever looked into.
I don't know of a timeshare.
I'm sure there are some inMontana.
Speaker 3 (21:44):
Well, yeah, what's kind of coming up for me and I
was actually talking to anappraiser recently about this,
you know, for a while especially, I guess it started up maybe 20
years ago sort of a fractionalline it wasn't really a frack.
Well, kind of a fractional lineis interest, you know, these
ranch developments where youhave your home site but then
you're kind of shared, communal.
Speaker 1 (22:05):
Common area yeah.
Common area maintenance yeah,yeah.
Speaker 3 (22:09):
And those largely failed, I would.
I would say there was a fewhigh profile ones that
dramatically failed.
And then even the ones thatwere successful, like well, kind
of big sky, like YellowstoneClub kind of, was a I think was
an early model there.
You know, same idea because youyou have your condo or whatever
but you're part of a sharedoverall the lodge and all this
(22:31):
kind of stuff.
But one of the arguments madeon those markets, and then Foley
, who did Rock Creek Ranch kindof a similar deal, kind of a
shared amenity.
But one of the arguments is youknow, do those guys have their
own community of buyers becauseof who they are, and they can
just pick up the phone and say,hey, I think you should consider
(22:52):
this and right.
Speaker 1 (22:53):
Yeah, it's not exactly an open market, right,
it's pretty limited andexclusive to their group of
friends and individuals.
Speaker 3 (23:00):
Well, and this is I'm , I'd interest to hear your
response to this, with your,with your syndication, with your
syndication strategy.
You know, one thing, kind ofinherent forever in owning
Montana land is not being in bedwith anybody, if you can help
it.
I mean, that's kind of themystique, is what's the joke?
(23:20):
You know you can.
You can shoot or take a leakoff your deck.
Yeah right, that's the, that'sthe.
So shared ownership of any kindkind of goes counter somewhat
to the, to what's been the sortof culture behind, for sure.
I was how does your modeladdress that?
(23:41):
Or you know, yeah, get out fromthat.
Speaker 1 (23:44):
Yeah, I was.
I was looking at the livestockvalue of a ranch, so grazing
income fee income 25 bucks anacre Well, like less than that.
But, but roughly.
If you capitalized it, itseemed like, depending on the
trophy ranch location, 15% ofthe value.
(24:07):
And as you go east to Montana orEastern Montana, northern Great
Plains, eastern Colorado,whatever.
It might be a little higher 30%, so 30% of the value is derived
from grazing, from agriculture.
So now you're looking at 8560to 85% is something else
(24:27):
location, exclusivity, privacy,rights, full control, recreation
, and yeah, so it's braggingrights.
How?
Yeah, absolutely so.
What is the value indemocratizing, fractionalizing
that other 80% of the value withthat?
(24:49):
Would that deteriorate themarket value to each one limited
partner, each one unit in theSPV?
Speaker 3 (25:00):
I mean it's being tested with Picasso and the
Frank Lloyd Wright House andother other specialized assets,
and I mean counter to what Ijust said about it being part of
Montana.
I guess, if you call it landownership culture, that you know
you own it and do whatever theheck you want with it total
control.
But on the flip side of thatit's a lot of work and a lot of
(25:22):
hassle and a lot of right, andthere's obviously a lot out
there about generational shift,like experiences over, you know,
outright ownership, kind ofthing.
So then it's like well, can Ihave a partial ownership in
something?
And, yes, I have less control,but I also have less risk, less
maintenance, hassle, work.
Speaker 1 (25:44):
I think that's what's being being played out and
tested is the generational shift, consumer tastes and
preferences.
Do you know?
One thing I run into a lot isguys who want to buy a ranch for
the hunting for the elk and saythat they're going to leverage
it and the annual payment is350,000.
Like I had one guy tell me hegoes Colter, that's a pretty
(26:07):
expensive elk.
Speaker 3 (26:08):
Yeah, exactly it is.
Speaker 1 (26:10):
Well, and he said Colter, Last year I took my
family on hunts guided outfitoutfitted my whole family Alaska
, northern Canada, my my billfor taking my family around the
world was $400,000.
If I were to get into a ranchwhere the P&I if I were to
(26:32):
leverage it, no cash out type ofa deal in the P&I was $400,000
a year.
I'm stuck to that one ranchRight.
Speaker 3 (26:41):
It's kind of like buying a cabin versus a camper
travel trailer.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (26:46):
Yeah, and there's.
There's pluses and minuses foreach.
I know with, anecdotally, myfamily, my in-laws, their cabin
on Holland Lake.
That's where all the memoriesare made.
Right, they're not made in theRV.
Right, yeah, yeah, yeah, andit's sentimental, it's very
there, is.
There's feelings around place,sense of place, sense of
(27:10):
community, sense of going backand the memories made.
It's personal, it's verysubjective and, yeah, you know,
it's a ranch isn't for everyone.
Guided outfit hunts are not foreveryone, right.
They're not for me.
I prefer jumping in the FordRaptor with my friends, with
beer and other things, screamingthrough the sagebrush, doing 65
(27:34):
, chasing down an elk, that Idon't want an outfitted guided
hunt.
Speaker 3 (27:39):
Right, right.
You want the redneck, theauthentic redneckery, I mean.
I don't know about authentic itjust it just is, it just is
yeah.
So you got to freshen me upwith your fractionalized
ownership.
Then what?
What are the amenities and theperks that and investor in that?
(28:04):
Those are benefits.
Speaker 1 (28:06):
So those are not rights.
As with the timeshare youactually you're buying rights
with when you buy into an SPV,you have investor rights.
Speaker 3 (28:19):
You don't have real property rights, and that's what
you're, you are marketing bothinvests, it's, it's investment,
it's an investment and it's alsoa recreational opportunity.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (28:32):
I believe personally that it should always be treated
as an investment first.
Yeah.
I feel that way about myprimary house, my primary
dwelling residence.
Speaker 3 (28:42):
Well, otherwise, you know, you, like we were kind of
saying the $400,000, like youknow, throwing money at, I mean,
there's only a few people thatwill just not care, not care
what the investment value right,throw, correct, basically
millions of dollars of what itwould take and just to play like
that's a, that's a unique.
Speaker 1 (29:00):
That's what we think and a lot of people, I think,
project that onto the wealthyelite, that, oh, they've got
throw away money.
Speaker 3 (29:09):
Right.
Speaker 1 (29:09):
Right, it's an asset.
First it has to have acompelling reason to take money
from somewhere and put it intosomething, because you know
early opportunity costs.
Speaker 3 (29:22):
Yeah, early in my career I was talking to a buyer
you know the classic, you knowout of state, very wealthy out
of state buyer, bought a, boughta place, and I was able to
deeply interview him.
He was great, he, you know, washappy to really talk to me and
so I really, you know, rolled upthe sleeves on it and he,
initially he characterized hisinvest, his purchase, as 75%
(29:45):
recreation, 25% investment.
You know it was the family,recreational aspect was.
You know he was putting thattop on the list and kind of an
investment too, right, right.
But after talking to him for awhile that flipped and he
admitted as such he's like, ohyeah, I'm, you know I'm
definitely not losing money onthis thing.
And he ended up realizing nowthis is, it's an investment that
(30:10):
I get some play value out of,recreational value out of.
And I assume you're kind ofdoing the same thing, because I
know you and I know you knowfocus it's, it's a, it's a
sophisticated investment, has tobe vehicle with some
recreational benefits, benefits.
Yeah, right, that's the model,yeah, and like I know from your
(30:33):
marketing and talking to youthat, making that accessible to
people that like you and I can'tafford to buy our own
multimillion dollar range forthat same.
We might if we could afford it.
We might do that on our own,but as it is we would be stuck
with a 20 acre in one of thosein one of those crappy rural
(30:54):
subdivisions the horse ghettosthat you do not go to unarmed.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (30:59):
If I'm going to take $150,000 in my opportunity as a
horse ghetto, right ruralsubdivision, or a 180th interest
in a 20,000 acre ranch.
You know I'd have to costbenefit and that's apples to
(31:20):
oranges.
But you know, find a way to doyour debits and credits charts,
your pluses and minuses, and seewhich one works out best.
Speaker 3 (31:27):
So here's a question for you as part of that
recreational opportunity tied tothe IEG operation, like you
know getting to help brand andthose kind of things or is it
mostly focused on, like hunting?
Speaker 1 (31:38):
No, those, those enterprises are separate,
separate leases and part of thepartnership agreement, the, the
private placement memorandum.
You, as a limited investor, youhave tax benefits, you have
(32:01):
your tax at passive investmentrates.
You cannot influence thedecisions or the happenings, the
activities around the SPV.
So you couldn't approach themanager, me and say well, I
think we should plant an orchardof apples.
Like you know this, this newgene of apples come along, is
(32:23):
going to kill.
Speaker 3 (32:23):
I think we should do a conservation easement on this
property.
I think we should reintroduce.
Speaker 1 (32:27):
Yeah yeah, you can influence the manager in any way
.
Delaware case law, where so theentities are registered, it's
ranch investor.
One LLC is the SPV that isregistered in Delaware.
Delaware case law states thatyou can't sue the manager for
mismanagement.
You can't sue them for poorperformance.
(32:51):
I want my money back if you hadany part in influencing the
outcome of the economics andfinances of that SPV.
So you also can't go to thetenant and say, why don't you
let me ride with you?
Because you know, things happen.
Speaker 3 (33:06):
Yeah, you might want to think it's funny though,
because I've seen differentsituations like well, like I
knew once a scenario where aretired Chicago couple but they
had they had come to Montanaseasonally like they had
summered in Montana or somethingfor decades love Montana, so he
finally retires and they, theybought a small parcel in a ranch
(33:27):
.
And I don't know if this wasformalized or not.
It might have just been aninformal agreement.
They had a great relationshipwith the overall ranch, but I
think it might have beenformalized.
Some recreational rights.
But the wife especially wassuper horsey, so she got to ride
, she got to gather cows, theygot to help brand, but when they
(33:48):
wanted to and they didn't haveto and they didn't want to, but
so for them it was a dream cometrue.
They've got their 20 acres or10 acres or whatever it was
their retirement dream home anda whole ranch to engage with at
their discretion.
And again, the horse.
The wife was particularlyhorsey so she loved to saddle up
and chase cows with the ranchcrew and I think she did that
(34:11):
quite a bit.
And you know, you know aboutbrandings and stuff like that
and I've been, you know I'vebeen to brandings in Boseman,
outside of Boseman, where halfthe participants are drunk
urbanites, no, urbanites fromBoseman.
Yeah, I knew a ranch that hekind of tapped into that.
Oh, he did like horsemanshipand stuff, so he was getting
money from people for, like youknow, training horses and stuff.
(34:33):
And then these people wouldcome out and brand and have that
quote unquote authenticexperience of branding and your
brandings were very different,yeah.
Getting yelled at by.
Yeah, getting screamed at.
Those are the brand.
Speaker 1 (34:48):
Kicked in the phase, kicked in the.
Speaker 3 (34:50):
Those are the brandings I grew up.
Yeah, I got those stories from.
Speaker 1 (34:54):
There's always yeah, there's always cousin Eddie,
who's way too drunk by 11o'clock.
And then he wants to do all theroping too and he he's just
taken forever to catch a calfand drag it out and someone's
like all right, all right, theowner of these cattle needs to
go tell cousin Eddie to get offthat damn horse.
(35:16):
That he's done.
Speaker 3 (35:17):
I was sure my kneecaps were broken when I was
about 12 at a calf kick both myknees and I went down.
I thought I was.
I thought I was a cripple.
Speaker 1 (35:29):
So here's, here's a story, because I'm supposed to
personalize this podcast, right.
Speaker 3 (35:33):
Oh, really, is that what your team tells you?
Speaker 1 (35:36):
Yep, they tell me, bring in more anecdotes.
Person personalize it.
I forget how old we were middleschool.
I would say that's probablyabout the start of drinking age
in Montana.
When it's just middle school,13, 14, yeah, so at one of my we
used to have the circuit ofbrandings neighbors helping
(35:58):
neighbors going all over thecounty, mostly the guys who had
like over two or 300 head.
They'd bring their crew and turnalong to make it shorter and
then then they would drinkwhiskey all through the night in
a wall tent and play poker and,uh, piss off the wives and have
the unlicensed children drivethem home at three in the
(36:19):
morning.
But it is all county roads, soit doesn't matter, right?
Better than a drunk driver.
Speaker 3 (36:25):
Well, us middle schoolers, unless the, unless
you're sneaking beers too.
Well.
Speaker 1 (36:32):
I'm not sure which was the better driver.
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (36:36):
Beginner's luck.
Speaker 1 (36:40):
At least we still have our vision.
I mean those guys some of themwere sold old and drunk, they
were blind.
They were blind before theywere drunk, right Right.
So we, we decide that well,when no one's looking, we're
going to sneak away a few casesof a beer, probably Bud Light at
the time, I hate to say.
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (37:01):
That was an E on a go in marketing yeah.
Speaker 1 (37:05):
So we, we take these 230 racks of Bud Light and we're
like, well, damn it, we got tokeep these cool somehow so
they're not just foamy and warmwhen the branding's over.
Right, we need them cool so wecan drink them when the
branding's over and go ride ourbicycles and fish and hunt and
shit too.
But we threw them in theirrigation ditch and we're like
(37:28):
that makes perfect sense.
Speaker 3 (37:29):
Right, Keep cold water.
Well, the water.
Some might not know that thewater in Montana tends to be
pretty frigid.
Speaker 1 (37:34):
Well, and we were two , three miles from the mountains
.
Speaker 3 (37:38):
Yeah, so cold, yeah, super cold water, yep.
Speaker 1 (37:43):
And and yeah, the cardboard box did not last.
And a few days later his dadwas out irrigating and just
finds, you know, beer cans allover his, you know in the orange
canvas dam and spread out overthe field.
Speaker 2 (38:01):
And yeah, we got a call, they knew exactly where
that beer was from.
Speaker 3 (38:06):
Yeah, yeah, so you know, agricultural recreation is
a thing too.
Getting, getting to play cowboy, I mean hell, you could come up
with a whole Yellowstone thing,you could I, and I prefer to
just leave that to theindividual.
Speaker 1 (38:23):
It's all subjective, it's you're limited by your
imagination, your creativity andsome of the liability in terms
of use and risk.
But when it comes to this issueis the hardest to figure out
when fractionalizing a ranch,because the reason, as we have
said, the 80% of the reason youbuy a ranch is for recreational
purposes, exclusivity.
(38:44):
You don't want to be out therewith John Q public.
So how do you one?
You're trying, I'm trying tooptimize for two things.
One, you want people to come inat a higher investment than the
minimum.
So you don't want a bunch ofpeople doing the minimum $50,000
.
If it's 50 or the minimum 100or 150, whatever it is, you want
(39:09):
people to come in a littlehigher.
So trying to optimize for that.
But then this idea of fair,equitable, egalitarian, who who
gets the use?
When that's the hardest issueto crack and that's what I
worked on who's the better shot?
Speaker 3 (39:30):
Who can drive better under adverse conditions?
Speaker 1 (39:34):
And a special tag if you have.
And they've all say most ofthem are out of status and
they've built up their pointsand they've applied for this
unique tag in your area.
They want to make damn surethat they have the ranch
themselves when it comes time tohunt.
And so how do you, how do youmanage for that group program
(39:58):
and allocate those days as abenefit, not a right?
How do you do that In a waythat's also best for the
investment, when the manager isincentivized by optimizing
returns?
Speaker 3 (40:13):
So you have a lot of interests there, right, right,
yeah, I think that's kind ofwhat interests.
What makes it interesting to meis, yeah, it's kind of a case
study and looking at managingrights differently.
You know, I mean obviously wegot the standard model, own
outright, but we've got otherthings I mean obviously
conservation, easements anddifferent.
Speaker 1 (40:35):
You know, unique rights situations, I guess you'd
say, but yours is highly uniqueand one of my personal values
is bringing more people out here, people who are invested, who
have an alignment of interestwith the community, the ecology,
and it's about a free marketsolution to compete with locked
(40:59):
gates on trophy ranches To alocked gate that benefits one
person, one family.
Let's bring more people out.
Speaker 3 (41:05):
Well, actually, you know what else comes to my mind.
I remember the podcast you didwith Dallas right, dallas Mount
who owns Ranch ManagementConsultants?
Yeah yeah Him, because you guyswere talking.
I loved that podcast actuallyit's one of my favorites and you
were talking about this issueof you know, out of state
ownership and trophy ownershipand like effect on culture and
(41:26):
he threw out he's like you know,some of the multi-generational
generational places are the mostinefficient worst managed,
poorly managed.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So not only the locked gate forkind of trophy kind of thing,
but what about the locked gatesfor just the old, you know, the
multi-generational that'sstarving to death financially
(41:47):
and maybe even culturally?
Right, they're trying to holdon to.
This entity.
I know that's part of yourthing too is how to provide
value in different ways and howto monetize the resource in
different ways that are creativeand meet needs, you know, and
that model, the old familyownership, when the other pieces
aren't there, to make thatplace thrive economically,
(42:10):
ecologically and otherwise.
Right, Maybe an alternative,like maybe an old time family
place, diversifying and maybethat allowing that family to
actually prosper on that placein a different way than trying
to cover all the costs on theirown.
You know, try to try to run acow outfit to pay for the place,
which is almost impossible.
That's Will.
Speaker 1 (42:30):
Harris of White Oaks Pastures.
He's been on the Rogan podcasttwice now.
Speaker 3 (42:35):
This is the Southern guy right, yep, joeja, isn't he
like Colonel Sanders kind?
Speaker 1 (42:40):
of oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3 (42:42):
He's very smooth, yeah.
Speaker 1 (42:44):
Super articulate, though really Incredible.
They actually, him and hisdaughter might be coming on this
week.
Speaker 3 (42:49):
Oh my gosh.
Speaker 1 (42:50):
Yeah, we've been in talks.
She sounds like she's actuallytaken over.
Will might be retiring.
Wow, might need to cut that out.
Speaker 3 (42:59):
Transition play you just leaked, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (43:05):
So I'll probably check on that first before we
release that one, but they'regoing to come back on this
podcast.
But Will and I disagreed abouthaving specialists and I was of
the I still am of the mind thatyou should have a livestock
specialist and ecology landspecialist.
(43:26):
You know, the livestockspecialist is trained in animal
science, has a degree in animalscience.
You need, you need finance andaccounting.
On my family place that's me mybrother, wyatt, is the Oklahoma
State grad with animal science.
You need someone who's goodwith equipment that's my other
brother, right.
And then I think today you needhunting, recreation, tourism,
(43:52):
and we are, we.
We say sexist things on here,but a lot of times that falls on
the wife.
It's a good enterprise, youknow, a well paying enterprise.
Speaker 3 (44:01):
You need a semi expert on programs and
legislation and regulation.
If you want to go down thatroute, I mean, don't you have to
?
I mean, aren't you sure whatthey want to?
Speaker 1 (44:10):
Yeah, I mean I guess you have to to compete with your
neighbor, to compete with theUnited States, you have to take
the government money and thisNGOs that are out there.
Speaker 3 (44:21):
You're right.
But I mean, even if you don't,you know, participate in those
programs, I mean it's stillmight affect you if you've got
endangered species or certainlyif you got sage grouse or I mean
it's not fully optional, isn'tit?
In some ways, I mean you got toat the very least sort of be up
on some things, because it canreally harm you, so will was of
(44:41):
the mindset that specialists,they optimize for they're,
they're siloed, they're monovariate, they're only good in
some areas.
Speaker 1 (44:52):
You know right, it's holistic and I do believe in
thinking and acting holistically, but I also think we should be
the best at some things rightand so he was of the mindset.
No, he's anti specialist, I'mpro specialist.
I do think on Today's ranches,when it comes to that
recreational Opportunity that isbeing monetized, that there
(45:17):
should be consultants in placewho are thinking about well,
this is a cash cow now, so whywould we not feed that cash cow?
Speaker 3 (45:25):
What came up to my mind immediately was I used to
turn my own wrenches.
In fact, I rebuilt the car whenI was 19.
I used to turn all my ownwrenches on my cars and but then
, you know, I got kids and I'mtrying to build a career and I
was trying to put a frost plugand I in a radiator and with
antifreeze in my face, in myeyes and almost stripping the
(45:46):
threads and Two hours in on ajob that would have taken a
legitimate, legit mechanic 20minutes.
That was when a switch flippedfor me like I'm doing more harm
Than good here and of course, Ihad that scrappy attitude and no
money.
So it's like I got to doeverything, but at some point
you realize you're doing nothingwell and I I'm actually still
(46:07):
dealing with this in my businesslike I'm really.
I think my check-in when westarted was Most of my time
lately has been really focusingon building my team and I'm
starting to feel, you know, andI've there's been, there's been
tasks I have struggled somightily to get out from under
and that's it's not worth mytime, like there's their jobs
that should be able to be farmedout.
I've struggled to do that butMakes no sense for me to.
(46:30):
And I love, you know, I lovemapping, I love GIS still, and
part of me could just be in thesilo and do GIS because I like
it that much, but that's notwhere my time is best spent by
any stretch, you know.
So it's, it's an inefficiencyat the least.
Yeah, me doing that.
Speaker 1 (46:44):
But yeah, you didn't have the competitive advantage
To fix your own car.
Someone else with the shopdowntown had all the tools, had
all the training, had all theknowledge, expertise, focus Yep,
they, they had the competitiveadvantage.
If you didn't have a job, ifyou were unemployed and broke,
(47:05):
you would have the comparativeadvantage because your
opportunity cost would be zero.
Speaker 3 (47:10):
Yeah, I was gonna say because you don't have any
opportunity.
Speaker 1 (47:12):
Yeah, so you, you, in that situation, you to fix your
own car if you're, if you'rejobless.
You'd have the comparison, butyou know I do get the appeal.
Speaker 3 (47:21):
I got to admit there are part of me that missed those
days because I was, you know, Iwas growing food, I was fixing
cars, we were raising our ownkids.
We were frickin damn nearmaking our own clothes.
That was I was.
I was part of the Kind ofhippie homesteader.
Was the fantasy build my ownhouse, raise my own kids, raise
my own food, fix my own cars,right, super?
(47:44):
It was really captivated bySelf-reliance and but I remember
, boy, I think having kidsreally started to turn that
around.
It's like Jesus, where is,where's the nanny.
Where's?
Where's grandma and grandpa?
Where's the nanny?
Where's the bookkeeper?
Where's the right Like?
I think I don't.
For me, anyway, getting older,the specialists starts to kid
(48:06):
and then, and you know,developing a career when you
start to build what?
What's relative incredibly highvalue relative to when you had
no marketable skills.
Speaker 1 (48:20):
I'm almost of the different mindset now that I
have two girls, two months andthree years old, that I'm I'm
kind of almost getting back tothe point where, like I need to
take on more prepping.
Like.
I should go bury a storagecontainer, get my brother's
excavator Out on my parentsranch and start loading that
(48:41):
thing.
For you know, I watched Leavethe world behind on Netflix.
Speaker 3 (48:48):
Yeah, I saw that too, and and now with the new movie.
Speaker 1 (48:51):
Civil War coming out this spring.
It's got me in the mindset like, hey, I need to be a little
more sovereign and self-reliantand I might I might move away
from specials.
I should maybe fix my own damncar.
Speaker 3 (49:05):
Yeah, well, there's an extreme there, if you know,
and we all know specialists thatyou know can do essentially
nothing else but their specialtythat's pretty anemic.
And my, you know what I mean.
It's there's something aboutbeing you know, and I I don't
really turn my wrenches anymoreand stuff like that, but I sure
can you know, I, you know, and Ican change a tire, I can change
my.
Well, I can, you know, and notbeing able to do those stuff
(49:27):
would not feel good, you know.
And you and you wonder aboutyounger generation.
That seem, seems like ourculture now maybe feels like
just pushing people right intothat way of life, rather than
being broke for ten years andhaving to figure everything out
and do everything yourself.
I mean, there's a lot ofcharacter building in that.
And, and you know, back to thedebate with sorry, what's his
(49:48):
name?
From the south will.
Harris yeah, I mean that's.
Isn't that a just a steadfastrural value of being able to do?
Anything.
Speaker 1 (50:01):
Like a judgment of character yeah, yeah, yeah yeah
and I mean I can attest one ofmy Like identity crises of the
many long which one are wetalking about?
Speaker 3 (50:14):
Any more context with that coming from a?
Speaker 1 (50:16):
frugal Dutch family, homesteader family, which comes
with its own culture of youdon't pay anyone to do anything,
you do everything yourself,right?
The first time I paid someoneto change the oil on my vehicle.
Mm-hmm.
I Sears.
I don't know if I slept thatnight.
Yeah, I had such Like yeah, Iguess maybe insecurities around,
(50:36):
am I gonna be disavowed?
Am I less of a man, right?
Speaker 3 (50:40):
Am I am I?
Speaker 1 (50:41):
am I not the, you know, the farmer, the rancher,
the do-it-yourself, get it done?
Yeah, pick yourself up by yourbootstraps, because I didn't
change my damn oil.
I paid somebody else.
Speaker 3 (50:53):
Well, you know you're making me think too, and you
know my career is in Rant, youknow ranch appraisal and I mean
Montana land sources.
You know more of a digitalDecks, desktop kind of thing.
But I take great pride and youknow I can show up on the ranch
and I Can do just about anything.
I mean, not I did, I didn'tgrow up on a ranch, I grew up,
(51:14):
you know, peripherally.
You know like like settling ahorse is a bit of a stretch for
me, but I can ride, I can.
I can't rope, so there'sthere's limits, but I can help
sword, I can help brand, I canchange a tire, even maybe on a
tractor.
I mean.
You know what I mean like thatkind of, but what about?
Reconciling the bank statement.
Speaker 1 (51:35):
Oh Jesus, if we call those soft skills or what, but
you know those are just asimportant as fixing the
hydraulics on the tractor.
Speaker 3 (51:44):
Yeah, you know, I mean this is kind of a segue,
but I feel like growing up inMontana.
So I grew up as a city kid byMontana standards.
I mean I'm a Billings kid,right, yeah, but and I don't
know if I was highly unique, itdidn't seem like it.
It seemed like all my friendsare the same way.
We all were tied to ranchesoutside of town.
We were at brandings and wenthunting and fishing and, looking
(52:04):
back, it was kind of a greatLifestyle because it was like
the.
It was both.
I had foot in both worlds, youknow like you know all the town
stuff.
But and it was a littledifferent back then.
It was easier.
I mean we still have prettygood access to Open space and
whatnot if we want, but thingshave gotten busier, things have
gotten, you know.
Speaker 1 (52:24):
Does it feel like you're further from the ranch?
Speaker 3 (52:28):
You in my like work and career now?
Speaker 1 (52:31):
yeah, just I mean not not geographically, not
proximity, but just where yourlife is Does it feel like it
takes more effort, more time toget out there and do those
things?
That you're further from that?
You're like more removed,further removed from that
culture, that experience?
Speaker 3 (52:48):
a little bit, but yeah, my artwork keeps us pretty
tied to that.
I mean, even even the ranchbroker community yeah right, is
pretty ranchy and all that kindof stuff I do.
You know I miss that's what Imiss about Riding appraisals,
because I haven't been ridingappraisals, I've been focused on
Montana Land Source, which ismore of a desk, desk duty kind
of thing.
So yeah, I'm at the desk andthe computer a lot more.
(53:09):
I miss the Inspections,inspecting ranches and going out
and finding sales.
And you know it's funny, I domore ranch to.
I jump at ranch touropportunities now because I I
mean in the past I was ranchtouring all the time.
Right, I used to roll, you knowI someone tried to get me to go
to some kind of structuredranch tour and it's like I do
this every day, like why thehell would I do that?
(53:29):
now I'm like, ooh, a ranch tour.
But I'm actually pretty excitedbecause I do think I'm making
headway on getting myself out ofsome of this work that's desk
related and I do want to do.
I want to go out and inspectthe ranches that are on the
market and, you know, call youup and say, hey, take me, what
do you think about taking me toyour next listing?
I'll, I'll do some content andyou know that kind of thing.
Speaker 1 (53:52):
I think you should get a little back to the land.
It's almost like bringing ananecdotal experience, Because
you're you're all data drivenright and your now.
It's data also Needs to bebalanced with anecdotes, so if
you show up, what you see inperson on foot is Completely
(54:14):
different than what you see fromGoogle Earth.
And, being average, I'm abrochure.
Speaker 3 (54:18):
Yeah, yeah, I think you should.
Speaker 1 (54:20):
I think you should do more.
Speaker 3 (54:21):
I'm excited.
I'm excited for that and even,not even just the ranch.
You know the ranch itself, buteven more networking
opportunities, like I went tothe last day of the stock
growers, you know, at thenorthern and was.
I don't know why I wassurprised, but how many people I
knew there and how many I meanclients, but also you know
customer clients, but also just,you know it's, it's, it's.
(54:41):
Even though our population hasreally swelled and things are
changing, it's still a smallworld, you know, especially here
, we still have that.
Speaker 1 (54:50):
Oh, very so by and large still just one long main
street.
Speaker 3 (54:55):
I saw, I think, an ad or something or a post for a
winter fair popped up.
You know if in Lewiston and Igot a little, or oh, I should go
to.
You know I've done that inyears past and had a good time.
Yeah, stuff like that get outin the country more.
Speaker 1 (55:08):
Yeah, especially as Western Montana becomes much
more distant.
Speaker 3 (55:14):
Yeah, eastern Montana right, right, yeah, so no, I
think this industry, thankfully,even when I spend a god-awful
amount of time, you know, at thecomputer, still, even just the
people I talked to on the phoneand the meetings I go to and
that kind of stuff keeps me abit connected, you know and I do
(55:36):
, I still am out on the road, Istill do Go look at stuff you
know, and travel.
Speaker 1 (55:41):
Well, I encourage anyone to check out Montana land
source.
You have awesome updates,statistics.
Appreciate that.
Keep.
Keep checking in seeing wherethis market's going.
As we enter the Christmas breakof 2023.
Let's see what the new year hasto offer us.
Any final thoughts?
Speaker 3 (56:00):
Yeah, I mean, I think it's gonna be calm for a while,
I think.
I think we're in the calm afterthe storm, you know, and that's
just the way it's gonna beother than the trophy ranches.
Yeah, but if you got a trophyranch it's just gonna fly off
the shelves apparently.
Speaker 1 (56:15):
We'll see what happens.
These interest rates arecertainly throwing a wrench in a
lot of, a lot of brokersbusiness, which always surprises
me.
Speaker 3 (56:24):
I mean, with the level of cash buying, you would
think that the high-level Landmarket in Montana would be
insulated from that, becausethere's very few Finance-based
purchasing but we're not talkingabout that leverage, we're
talking about opportunity costright, right, yeah, but I just I
that's.
It fascinates me because againa Tertiary view.
(56:45):
You could easily say oh,interest, what, what?
What interest rates have to dowith Ranches in Montana, which
are almost always bought withcash.
Speaker 1 (56:53):
Yeah well, I mean, when CD rates are 3%, you'd
rather have fun with your money.
Yeah, you don't want it in a CDyet 3%, but when they're up at 5
and a half and 6, then then afun little ranch.
You know you have to have thosetough conversations with your
wife.
Well, thanks for coming on.
(57:18):
Yeah, thanks, good to be back.
Anyone who has feedback,comments, questions, be sure to
reach out to me or Andy Montana.
Land source and ranch investor.
Thanks for tuning in.
We at ranch investor are veryinterested in hearing your
thoughts, your opinion, yourwants, desires, hopes and dreams
(57:41):
.
Everything on ranchsyndications, ranch investment,
ranch real estate syndicationsand DPP's direct participation
programs.
Speaker 4 (57:51):
Please reach out click subscribe on your
streaming platform so you knowwhen the latest episode has
dropped.
Be the source of knowledge andthe maven that other
professionals are excited torefer.
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