Co-Creating Radical Hospitality: Lynda Kahn

We examine how to knit inclusive communities together through the art of making every individual feel acknowledged and embraced. From Rhode Island discussions to kitchen table chats, we celebrate the collective joy of shared contributions and the gift that strangers can bring into our lives.

In the bustling tapestry of our lives, we often yearn for genuine connections. This episode uncovers personal stories that highlight the anticipatory and welcoming nature of hospitality, steeped in family traditions and the importance of crafting spaces ripe for heartfelt conversations. We share how the guiding influences of our lives have shaped our approach to hosting and fostering connections that leave you feeling part of something larger than yourself.

We venture into the digital realm where skepticism about remote facilitation transforms into a celebration of virtual intimacy. In the wake of COVID-19, technology became our unexpected ally, proving that even when apart, we can still create spaces of vulnerability and growth. Stories of overcoming obstacles like power outages and adapting to impromptu settings reveal our capacity for resilience. Join us in embracing adaptability, tender-hearted listening, and the profound art of asking questions that resonate with the soul.

Recommended reading:
The Art of Gathering - Priya Parker
The Love Prescription - John Gottman and Julie Schwartz Gottman
Learning to Listen - Herb Lovett
The Listening Path - Julia Cameron
No Bad Parts - Richard Schwartz
Turning To One Another - Margaret J. Wheatley
The Intuitive Body - Wendy Palmer

Episode Transcript

David Hasbury (00:00):
Recreating us is a neighbor's international
production.
Neighbor's international iscommitted to an asset-based
focus of co-creative change,developing the capacity to
welcome the diversity of gifts,knowledge and experiences
available in each one of us.
Linda Kahn is an educator, afacilitator, a host and a

(00:28):
masterful practitioner of thearts of hospitality.

Lynda Kahn (00:32):
And I keep thinking about ways to kind of notice the
tender heartedness and whatcreates a tender heart.
I think it just really mattersto me and I'm still learning
about what's it take for peopleto feel seen and heard and held.

David Hasbury (00:54):
I'm Dave Hasbury, and in this conversation we
explore the experience ofradical hospitality in building
a bigger we.
We explore how we can draw uponour ordinary experiences of
being hosted and welcomed andhow these experiences can be
lifted from ordinary toextraordinary by facilitating

(01:16):
co-creation in the service ofbuilding community.
We consider the importance ofour awareness of our intention
in inviting and gathering people, and how paying attention to
our inner condition is essentialto calming and centering our
ability to be present, to whatis possible when people gather,

(01:36):
and we contemplate the power ofgreat questions that can safely
open us to experience a softheart that makes connection
through conversation possible.
So welcome, thank you for beinghere.
It's always good to see you, butit's nice to have this
conversation because we have notdone it quite like this.

(01:59):
Usually we are standing in yourkitchen or sitting at your
dining room table or watching avideo up in your living space
upstairs, so this is different.
But it really is related tothose other things, because one
of the things about you is youare both an incredibly gracious

(02:25):
and skilled host.
You know how to welcome peopleand make people feel at home,
and the reason why I wanted tohave this conversation is
because I know how good you areat this in ways that they're not
my strength as much as yours,so I'm really glad that you're

(02:50):
here.

Lynda Kahn (02:50):
So for this, Well, I appreciate the invitation to
just have a chance to reflect onit and think about okay, what
do I do about this?
What do I do, why am I doingthis, what do I believe?
And I think it was interesting.

(03:14):
Earlier this week we had anopportunity to talk about
relationships and connection andcommunity at the invitation of
folks in Rhode Island and weshared the session with the
fabulous Angela Amato and it wasfun to put that presentation

(03:39):
together.
And it was also reallyinteresting to think about what
it means to create a sense of acollective and connection.
And so we reflected, notsurprisingly, on a theme we've
touched on in the final largeToronto Summer Institute

(04:02):
gatherings and that was buildinga bigger we.
And one of the points inthinking about what it takes to
build a bigger we is engaging inradical hospitality.

David Hasbury (04:14):
I love the term.

Lynda Kahn (04:16):
I do too, and I was really thinking about when I've
loved it most isn't that I'mdoing all the hosting and people
are receiving, but what Ireally like when I think was
close to New Year's, when wewere together it was the act of

(04:36):
co creation.
It was creating it together andhaving people really make a
contribution, because it'sreally not about entertaining,
it's about connecting andrelationship and everybody
feeling in.
And I still remember beingtogether with John McKnight and

(05:02):
his talking about hospitality asan aspect not only of making
people feel welcome for friendsof yours, but welcoming a
stranger and creating a spacewhere everyone feels really in
and included.

David Hasbury (05:19):
Yeah, in a previous conversation I had with
John O'Brien for this podcast,john referenced two things.
One was he just talked about thesignificance of asking, so just
simply asking and invitingpeople and the importance of
that, and the second was thewhole notion of hospitality and

(05:43):
we talked about members andmembers of each other and all
that, and what he talked aboutis and person and personhood,
and he said, you know, a personreally is a mystery and is
something to be in awe of, andpart of the thing about
welcoming is and welcomingparticularly people who may be

(06:07):
outside is the mystery that wecan receive from that, and so
the whole welcome andhospitality is really a big, big
piece of all of this.
And I, you know thisconversation I think it has
greater relevance to a muchwider circle, but I, because of

(06:30):
the nature of our experienceyours, mine and others that are
fighting into theseconversations we've spent a lot
of time paying attention to whathappens to people who have been
labeled and their families,people who have been
systematically punched out ofeverything, and so I really

(06:51):
think about those people in thisprocess and the people who
accompany them.
You know the whole and thepeople who we want to reach out
to in those in those ways.
But one of the things I wantedto talk to you talk about first,
even before we get into therelevance to this, to your, to

(07:13):
your practice in your vocationalwork is the ordinary elements
of this.
So hosting and hospitality arethings that you are deeply
practiced and embedded in.
But even beyond what your workis all about, these are a part

(07:35):
of who you are, these are a partof your friendships and about
the way your home is set up, andI think of us trying to kind of
take what are really ordinarynotions and ordinary experiences
and kind of elevate them toextraordinary you know, to kind
of you know, I think that's whatthe radical hospitality is

(07:59):
really all about.
It's extraordinary, it's thatnotion that these are things
that are many people'sexperience, whether as the
receiver or as the contributor.
But it's partly bringing ourattention to to what that's all
about.

Lynda Kahn (08:18):
That's right because it actually reflects Okay.
So I think about who's coming.
Who have we invited to be here?
What do they care about?
What's going to make, whetherit's our four year old
granddaughter and her parentsand their interests.

(08:44):
And you know, most recently wehad this fabulous opportunity
for Chris and Laura and Hazel tobe here Right after Christmas
and Hanukkah, coming into theNew Year.
So here for 10 days we did snowdances.
So Hazel got snow.
That is not in my control, butthere it was.

(09:07):
And Pete and Rebecca are twogirls, lauren, rebecca and their
husbands.
They were able to spend a bunchof time and so, and the cousins
Nouveau, megan and Andrew, werehere and Jack, sister Kate, was
here, and so there was justspace and we, we also physically

(09:32):
transformed some of the spacesin the house for people's
comfort.
We created the conditions, wemoved, we moved furniture, we
created a bar and a differentkind of pantry.
We thought about what I mean,just things that were available,

(09:54):
that are just almost invisible.
Yeah, but they make all thedifference.
I actually keep a list.
I know, when my mom used tocome after she left on the visit
.
I actually had in my computer,on her contact card, the basket,

(10:15):
the knife, the cutting board.
And right before she would askme could I have this?
could I have that?
And of course you can.
It became easier when she cameto visit than I, just because
some of it is anticipatory, tocreate comfort and a real

(10:37):
feeling of welcome for peopleand just you know, I'm a type A.
I can get wrapped up prettytight.
One of my practices is justletting go.
Okay, so say hello to that partof you and tell her to calm

(11:00):
down.
Thanks for stopping by.
You're not going to be helpfulhere.
It's not going to be perfect.
It's not helpful if you don'tmake space for people to
contribute.
That's not what you want.
I actually really thought abouthow do I hold this space in a

(11:27):
way that everybody feels in andthat I'm not the chef and my
boyfriend, jack's not thedishwasher.
How are we in this space?
In a way, just because of thephysical layout of the house,
you can get really separatedfrom the conversation.

(11:49):
My redesigned house has justone big, big room, right,
because you remember, oh my gosh, after Judith Snow passed in
2015 and people gathered hereWere there, 20 of us in that

(12:11):
very small kitchen.
There were spaces around andwhere we were was in the
heartbeat of the house, pullingthe furniture in, just letting
it be For me.
I loved it.
It felt really great and Ireally do have to think about

(12:32):
how do I really keep maintainingthat intention for genuine,
really extraordinary welcome.
I know what it takes.
It also takes it in stride andstill leaves enough energy to be

(12:55):
with the people.

David Hasbury (12:58):
Yeah, because it's a part of the welcome is
that people actually feel yourpresence when you're there.

Lynda Kahn (13:04):
Adjust.
So, and I continue to belearning in that regard, and one
of the things that was actuallyreally helpful with everyone
who was going to be in and outof the house was for me to name
it and invite their help andtalk about the intention.

(13:25):
As Priya Parker would say, beclear about the purpose.

David Hasbury (13:29):
Yeah.

Lynda Kahn (13:30):
We're talking about how we want to be together.
How we want to be together,what are we facilitating here in
terms of everybody'sconnections, and how?
Help me not retreat into thisrole of I'm doing it all when I

(13:50):
know that what we're allinterested in is a we yeah.

David Hasbury (13:55):
So I want to step back before we go too much
further, because this is allgreat, but I have a sense that
you had early experiences inyour life where you started to
learn what hosting andhospitality were all about, and
before you were even thepractitioner of it all.
Where did you learn that?

(14:16):
Where, where did you experiencethat most in terms of your life
, that kind of little bit of avital experience in you to kind
of say, oh this, there'ssomething here.

Lynda Kahn (14:31):
Very interestingly, my mother.
Yeah yeah Was brilliant.
Not, we're not talking, thiswas fancy cooking.
That's not what this was about.
But from the time I was, we mymother had the most remarkable

(14:55):
sense of Relationships andmaking space and the kids fell
welcomed through high school IfI wasn't home.
When a friend stopped by, theyoften came in and it didn't
matter If I was home, because mymother would never have

(15:20):
described that she was holdingspace.
But my mother held eachperson's threads and story and
they loved that presence andfocus and I, I certainly knew it
.
There are times that you, youwitness things you don't even

(15:41):
know.
You're seeing Right and youknow.
Steve Jobs would say you onlyconnect the dots by looking
backwards.
Yeah, yeah.
You know, I can see that mymother's generosity of spirit In
that regard and her attentionto Relationships, friends and

(16:04):
family.
You know I, even in her lateryears, after she moved from
Florida and had gone to Georgiaand then was living in Michigan,
I traveled back with her.
Let me go see my girlfriends inFlorida, so let me help

(16:30):
facilitate you can see myyoungest sister who lives there
and let's have lunches with yourfriends.
These women connected in a waythat they called themselves
chapter four.
They were friends through theirkids.
They after all the kids werelaunched and even after their

(16:54):
bowling days were over, theywere no surprise to you, they
knew you go to lunch afterwards.
So these, these friendshipswere really important and I just
I witnessed that.
And even though my mother wasnot particularly a fancy cook,

(17:16):
she was also a woman whowouldn't put out a bag of potato
chips without taking the topoff and finding a bowl.
We never talk about thesethings, but my girls would not
do this either.
They would find the bowl in thenapkin and I never said, oh,
you find a bowl in the napkin,you eat first with your eyes.

(17:39):
Presentation matters this justkind of in the drinking water,
but flow was remarkable.
I think about yeah.

David Hasbury (17:48):
I didn't get to know your mom a lot because we
because of distance and hervisiting is when I got to, but I
did get a sense of agraciousness about her and a
caring about who you were,especially if you were related
to you, like she cared about thepeople that you cared about and
it was really felt and she wasvery gracious in that way and I

(18:15):
meant I wanted to ask you aboutthat because you're not the only
person who has had thoseexperiences right, like they've
had experiences from early days,often a mother but not always
but often it's the mother whokind of made the space for the
house to be the place where thekids could show up where, or the

(18:43):
gathering of the family, thosecelebrations of seasonal
gatherings and all that kind ofstuff and the kind of attention.
So I only put that out becausewe're not all starting from zero
.
You know, we're starting from alived experience of something

(19:04):
and I could, I can tell you inmy life those gatherings were
not my favorite place to be frommy family experience.
But I know other members of myfamily, my extended family, for
whom they handled thingsdifferently than they were in my
house and you could tell thatthere was a different way that

(19:26):
people attended to all that, andbecoming aware of that is just
really important because it'snot foreign.
You know, the notion of hostingand hospitality is not foreign.
You've either experienced it bybeing invited into something
and know what that's about, oryou've actually participated in

(19:46):
it as somebody.
So, anyway, I wanted to findout a little bit about and I had
a sense that you would say thatit was your mom.

Lynda Kahn (19:54):
That was a kind of iconic and you keep learning
because there I am.
I've witnessed my mom and I'mat Ohio State in my early years.
There and I'm with a group offriends, men and women.
One of them men says gee, I'mthirsty, and I found myself

(20:21):
standing up to go do somethingabout it.
And he looked at me and saidwhat are you doing?
Sit back down.
I'm perfectly capable of, and Ithought it's so interesting
because my mom was from ageneration that was really

(20:47):
traditionally in that role, andthose are things that I'm still
learning about.
Then include saying to peoplewho are here Please, I will
remember to ask you if there'ssomething you want, but I will
feel most comfortable if I knowthat you would actually go into

(21:08):
my refrigerator.
I would like to orient you.
Let's learn how the coffeemaker works.
What else would make youcomfortable?
Because you'll never beOtherwise, you're doing exactly
that.
It's all.
I'm holding it all and I'mresponsible for it all, and I

(21:29):
know that's not it.

David Hasbury (21:31):
Well, I think that this is kind of the
intersection with your personallife and partly that mode can
become an exhausting thing toactually be the person who's
caring for everything all thetime.
So as we get older, we kind ofgo wait a minute.
This is exhausting.
But I think the connection inthis is also and you've already

(21:54):
referenced Priya Parker, who'sthe author of the Art of
Gathering just this notion andyou have been a long time
practitioner of convening peoplefor a variety of purposes just
the notion of thinking about theintent of what you're trying to

(22:16):
do and how that goes into boththe way you receive people when
they come, but how you invitethem in the first place, how you
even decide who comes, becauseit gets to the place of welcome
and inclusion is and PriyaParker speaks of this that's a

(22:38):
really valuable thing if it fitswith what you're trying to do.
So I wonder if you could talk alittle bit about the kind of
thinking you do when you'rethinking about the experience
that you're trying to createwhen you're convening, gathering
, all that.
So yeah, talk about yourintention and how you figure it

(23:01):
out.

Lynda Kahn (23:04):
I think one of the things that I really think about
begins with actually justtrying to quiet myself and hold
that question for myself aboutwhat's our purpose here.

(23:25):
What are we trying to do, andcan we find some ways to say
that in an interesting, clearway so that people can actually
decide if they want to join ornot, where you can see I want to
be in this or not.
I don't really want to be partof this and I think that I've

(23:51):
learned from you and many otherpeople who we've been with on
the journey that so much ofreally clarifying what's my
purpose, what's the purpose ofthe gathering, and what does
that even begin to suggest abouthow you would design the way

(24:15):
that people will connect, aswell as the space.
And, really importantly, how doyou co-create that with other
people?
Can you begin to make thatclear enough that other people
can really participate so thatyour type A doesn't think I have
to do all this Because youcannot do all this and it isn't

(24:37):
better if only a few people dothis.
It is far better if the eventhas been co-created and the
people who are engaged have anidea about how they can
contribute.
That just shifts the energycompletely.

David Hasbury (24:57):
Well, I do think that some of that, though, is
related to a larger purpose thatyou and I might experience,
which is the creation andvitalization of community, the

(25:18):
experience of a beggar wee whichemphasis on the WE, the WE part
and not everybody would havethat as a higher purpose, the
kind of fostering, cultivating asense of wee, but I think for

(25:40):
you, this notion is about that.
You can tell me more about that, but I think all of your work
is really all about how do weleave people with an experience
of they are a part of something.

Lynda Kahn (25:58):
They're a part of something and they're able to
act, mobilize when we're at ourbest.
People have made connectionswith other people, they've
fallen in love with other peoplein the deepest friendship way,

(26:22):
and some of the folks who areparticularly dear to me I met in
2005 when I went to my firstToronto Summer Institute the way
that I was held or greeted someof those friendships are now

(26:45):
decades old.
In fact, because it links backto something that's pretty dear
to me, which is seeing peopleand being seen holding a kind of
curiosity that really wants tolisten so deeply into what

(27:09):
someone is saying, who they areand what they're about, that
their gifts become manifest.
And I can remember where thatnotion first came to me, the
idea of giftedness.
But I think about being able tolisten into what people say and

(27:30):
what they care about and theirstory.
I find myself listening forgifts and connections.
I've had positions.
I was a project evaluator inthe state of Ohio for projects
funded by the DevelopmentalDisabilities Planning Council

(27:51):
there, I don't know, probably1979.
I found myself listening.
I was supposed to visit all thegrantees and I found myself
going to visit them and saying,oh, wait a minute.
Okay, All right, so you'rereally interested in this and
you probably want to go talk tothis person that I just met over
there.
It was just the nature oftrying to make those connections

(28:14):
.
And so there you go in thejourney, as the weaving goes on.
My interest in then thinkingabout well, what's the art of
having a conversation?
How about difficultconversations?
What are some really goodquestions to ask?
How do you really listen in away that you sink in, where

(28:38):
you're not pretending to listen,but something new actually,
which is, I'm sure, what you'rehoping for from these
conversations is.
There's something new that'seven created because of having
the conversation.
It's generative.
You're not so busy downloading,oh my gosh.
Well, I remember whatever Ithink I wanted to say to what I

(29:00):
did in approaching this was oh,just be here now.

David Hasbury (29:05):
Well, and it strikes me that your calming the
type A in you is in partrelated to being able to listen
better.
When the type A is going so fastit's really hard to stop and
breathe and notice what's goingon.
But I want to talk to you alittle bit because you mentioned

(29:28):
1979 in Ohio, and then youended up in Rhode Island at some
point and I know, and you endedup there as a director of
developmental disability.
You ended up ultimately in thatkind of place and from that

(29:48):
place you still kind of keptthat notion of welcome, of
listening, of convening, ofintentional, and I know that
some of your deep friends thatyou have still in your life come

(30:10):
from that place and the kind ofand it included a number of
family folks, people who werequite familiar with what it
feels like to be rejected orwhat it feels like to be ignored
or what it feels like to not belistened to.

(30:30):
But I wonder if you could justtalk about, from a high level of
administration still, the placethat hosting and hospitality
held for you even in those roles.

Lynda Kahn (30:45):
Well, I really came to appreciate that when I was at
my best I really needed to beconnected to folks with
disabilities and families andfortunately I didn't enter that
place as the state director.

(31:06):
I came as Ms Flipchart andMarkers.
I entered a role.
The job title was the directorof professional services at the
state institution.
That within, fortunately withinyears of my being there, rhode
Island was the first state toannounce they would be closing

(31:30):
their institution and my workthere was connected to
facilitating conversations.
Oh, I still remember vividly Ijust digress a moment because
remember early on I had themistaken idea that when you kind

(31:55):
of held the leadership role fora team of people and I do use
this now in air quotes is that Iremember one of the really
senior people on the team turnedto me because something came up
and I started thinking aboutwhat the solution would be and
he looked at me and said youmight want to consider listening

(32:21):
and inviting what those of uswho have been here a while would
say.
You need not do it, but youmight want to know how we you
know how we're thinking aboutthis and fortunately I could
make new mistakes after that.

(32:42):
I didn't make that one againand I've not forgotten it about.
Remember there are people withother experience and perceptions
here and you need to be reallylistening, not and I'm still in
recovery on this and not rushingto the solution.

(33:06):
There will be some realresonance and passion, as Peter
Block would say, when you comeinto the solution.
But it's not.
I'm in charge.
Here's the problem, there's thesolution.
There's all that stuff thatactually is in, as we know, have
come to one of our more recentyears, be introduced to the work

(33:29):
of the Presencing Institute,but there's all of those ways of
getting to know and learningfrom many perspectives about
what's going on and, you know,letting go of that, reflecting
and looking at what the futurecan be.
And I think that's why some ofthe, some of the bodies of work

(33:56):
and other practitioners andauthors and writers, why I have
found such resonance, is thatthat's been a way that I've been
curious and sense making for awhile and then sometimes you
bump into oh my goodness, isn'tthat a great framework?
Well, that's really helpful.
It's how I felt when JohnO'Brien handed me Priya Parker's

(34:17):
book and I started reading it.
Then we'd come to a gatheringin your home in New Jersey, the
book raising Before the summerinstitute.
It was in June and he said youmight want to read this.
We're so waiting for that book,aren't we?
I think we are, I think we are.

(34:39):
But I do think about theimportance of curiosity and
noticing how you're listeningand when there's just other
noise that's interfering,because you can't hear somebody
when you're busy listening toyourself, and that happens.

(35:00):
And so I'm so interested insome of the work about our own
inner condition and what.
I can do to just calm down.
Notice all the other noisy bitsLike the insecure one, the

(35:20):
perfectionist, the type Acontrol person, the manager.
Yeah yeah, yeah, Hello, nice tosee you.
The inner critic, oh my gosh.

David Hasbury (35:31):
I have a deeply, profoundly intimate relationship
with that person.

Lynda Kahn (35:35):
Right, they're so busy and I think I really
appreciate some of the work thattherapists that I'm seeing is
pretty fabulous in this regardand familiar with Dick

(35:56):
Schwartz's work on internalfamily systems.
And Dr Becky Kennedy, who is, Ithink, just completely
brilliant child psychologist,also has these threads in her
work and it is so helpful tojust have some grace and humor

(36:20):
about all these other charactersthat they really do make up all
of who we are and thank themfor showing up.
But don't work, because that'snot really who we need right now
.

David Hasbury (36:36):
Well, and that comes back to the whole notion
of really being clear aboutintention and what do we need in
order to create the experienceand be part of the experience
that we hope would be shared?
And so I wonder if you couldjust talk about that and for you

(36:59):
, invite and convene what goesinto you thinking about what am
I doing here?

Lynda Kahn (37:10):
It is exactly that.
It is that by this point I'velearned to name my intention and
I'm often I have the benefit ofliving with and working with
Jack Pierpoint, who is prettybrilliant husband and partner,

(37:39):
and we can talk about that andhave an exchange about that, and
I find it pretty helpful tojust be able to reflect on that
out loud and be able to go backand forth about it and talk
about what our purpose is.
We've even thought about it,davis.

(38:01):
We've been facilitating themost recent path and maps
courses, the person centeredways to build community courses
on Zoom and started to beginconnecting personally with
people ahead of time.
You know that email has to dowith our purpose with these
conversations is right.

(38:25):
It's not a qualifying exam forthe event, it is a real.
We just love to connect and getto know you some and answer any
questions you've got, and dothat before we're going to be in
this virtual space together.

(38:46):
What a gift that would be to us.
Meant sincerely, and it hasbeen.

David Hasbury (38:53):
Yeah, yeah.
Well you know, and I think aboutthis just in relationship to
our experience together in whatis now known as the Pathfinder's
studio, but began four yearsago and we were going to gather

(39:20):
in Toronto with a group ofpeople to begin to think about
something.
I don't even know if we hadclearly defined what it was we
were going to think about, butyou and Jack had done the
homework to figure out a spacethat could best accommodate the

(39:41):
kind of gathering that we hadintended.
Right, and if you can talkabout that, you know, just talk
about that kind of thinkingabout, because I want to come to
the flip side of that, which isyou do with whatever you have,
but the, but a starting placeoften is kind of thinking about

(40:04):
what do we want the feel of aplace to be.
So can you talk a little bitabout that kind of thinking
about?

Lynda Kahn (40:11):
Right.
I think, when you think aboutyour purpose and you're looking
for contact and connection anddeep reflection, that led us to
think it's not a hotel.
They're not going to be able todo what we want in that kind of

(40:31):
space.
What are we looking for?
And probably because of holdingsome of those considerations
previously, we found the QuakerMeeting House here in Toronto
and that space where you couldyou couldn't do some of the
wandering through a park that wewould have loved, but you could

(40:53):
see green there was a kitchen,there were couches and
furnitures, there was a sunroom,there was a big meeting space,
you could get a big circle ofchairs and I thought, yeah,
that's going to make a realdifference, because then it
means when you say we want toshare hospitality with one

(41:18):
another, you can stop and bringsomething.
There'll be space in therefrigerator, people can do that
, so people can make acontribution in a way that
you're not facing the hotel thatsays there's no external food
allowed in this venue.

David Hasbury (41:32):
Yeah, yeah, it's a fascinating thing that the
hospitality industry really ismore industry than hospitality
and really wants to actuallykind of control the environment.
But you were finding a place.
But the thing that wasinteresting about that is that
you and Jack had both put a lotof thought into that and looked

(41:56):
around, and part of it isbecause you've had a history of
doing things in Toronto andyou're always looking for that
kind of space to create.
And then COVID hit and we kindof went from what we're coming
in April when we were inFebruary and saying I don't
think we're going anywhere.
And so what could we do on avirtual space, a non-line space?

(42:22):
And it's been interesting.
And I only raise this because AI think all of us at the time
were a little dubious as to whatthat was going to be like to be
online.
We didn't have that muchexperience with it at that point
and we were all a little bit oh, we're going to lose so much by

(42:44):
being online that it's notgoing to be that meaningful, and
surprise ourselves by how muchwe actually discovered, because
the intentions still remained,they didn't go away.
It was like the room and thebuilding change.
But how could you still kind of.
But it's interesting,throughout this period of COVID,

(43:07):
you and Jack have, in partbecause of COVID, made convening
for learning together a biggerpractice for you.
I mean, you're effectively it'sthe way you've been doing what

(43:27):
you used to do by going to alocation and a community and all
that.
You're actually gathering peopleonline and in that process it
takes time to learn what thatmeans to be in a different space
with different resources andall that.
And it's been in the last andmaybe you can tell me it's

(43:49):
longer than this, but it feelslike in the last year that you
really learned about what wasmissing from being in physical
space, where you could havethose conversations and learn a
little bit about who people were.
That you and Jack actually madeit a proactive thing of where
we're actually going to reachout and we're going to actually

(44:09):
talk to you before you come, sowe know who you are when you
show up and we know what we canexpect a little bit, because we
lost that.
So I wonder if you could justtalk a little bit about how that
learning came, because we inthe Pathfinder studio in 2024,
took your experience and kind ofsaid we need to do that in this

(44:33):
new experience that we'rehaving online.
So I wonder if you could justtalk about the learning that
comes.
That's an interplay between thesetting that you're in and the
relationship you want toestablish with people.

Lynda Kahn (44:48):
To me.
I think about the fact that ithas everything to do with
holding that initial intentionand also holding the question
what more is possible?
Is there any other way to leaninto this?
Let us recall that the firsttime we actually even did

(45:09):
anything appearing on Zoom iswhen you and Patty Scott host an
event in New Jersey with 30people in a room and said you
can do it, we'll be here, all ofus will be gathered and you
guys can facilitate remotely.

(45:30):
And we decided we wouldprototype it.
Right, it was a really bigstretch.
I'm always in for appreciatingthat.
Sometimes my first answer is noway.
Is that going to work?
And then I can never stay withno.
No is an energizer for me.

(45:52):
If we can imagine it, it mustbe possible, and so we learned a
lot about okay, so what's ittake to do that?
How many things that we woulduse here do we need to also have
there because of the lag, etc.
Etc.
Etc.
And we were all surprised, withthe help of you know, several

(46:17):
interesting gadgets andtechnology, we could get like
this face to face.
And it was the first time Iever facilitated, that's true.
I forgot about where I wasremote and the person in their
planning circle were together,but we were not physically
together, and I absolutely am anenergy reader.

(46:41):
When I'm physically with people, for sure, you know, I will
actually move around the room aspeople check in, holding some
space in front of them, not everstanding over them to hear what
someone has to say, becausethere's just something that

(47:04):
happens in that field, and so Iknew I would be missing that.
But with your invitation wetried it and then we can fast
forward.
I don't think we did anythingelse with it for a while, but
when COVID came, I think thething that made such a
difference for us was that wehad a couple of friends who said

(47:27):
I'd really like you to try this.
I know that you don't thinkit's possible and I don't know
if it's possible, but justBaldick said with my team of
five at four hours, could we,could six of us gather, could we
try this?
I've experienced theseprocesses.

(47:52):
I've been with people in person, with you at least two or three
.
I could, even we could thinkabout this together in the
design, at which point I alsobegan to realize that zoom
needed to be an extension of thefacilitation and I needed to
learn it.
As John O'Brien would say, whois the person least likely to

(48:16):
have done any technologicalmastery of any kind?
That would be me, and yet Ididn't.
It could not stop me.
I had to let go of the.
You can't do this, somebodyelse does this with.
But this is about facilitation,and if I'm going to hold this

(48:37):
space and I'm going to helppeople be in small group
conversations or think about howcan I help people imagine
they're sitting in a circle,what can I do?
As I drew a piece of paper,took a picture of it, a screen,
shared it and said here you are,people are on the zoom, here
you are sitting in this circle.
You're going to pass to theperson next to you, just trying

(49:02):
then to tap into who else hasgot some of this experience that
we can learn from.
What's the art of hostingvirtually Right, right, and so
we do keep learning, and it'sit's not.
I'm sure we're not done.

David Hasbury (49:21):
No, I love that you brought in the question.
We'll never be done because thewhat more is possible question
always lives in the experience.
Now, I got to know you in 2000,.
Started to get to know you atthat time.
I've known Jack a lot longerand I know that together you're

(49:42):
this, but I knew Jack before Igot to know you.
And Jack is a master of thespace, does not confine you and
that and partly it's because ofthe big convenings of the Summer
Institute became such apractice in his life and often

(50:03):
those, those settings were notthe ideal settings, you know
right.
And and so it's about what canyou do with what you have to
make an experience possible?
And I wonder if you could sharea little bit of, and even some
stories of you know how a spacebecomes something different than

(50:24):
it appears as two or threestories for sure that that come.

Lynda Kahn (50:31):
One of the funny things about getting to know
Jack more deeply is that I thinkwe have a fundamental non
compliance in common.
Just, you know, I've I've comeinto meeting spaces and
independently we've had storiesof there was a big conference

(50:52):
table, we didn't want people, Ididn't want people at the
conference table, and he's gothe's got stories of that
conference table was never moved.
We moved it and and Icoincidentally did as well of
just no, let's, let's just movethis, let's reconfigure the
space.
We've had people leave a room,come back in and co creatively

(51:19):
set up the space.
But I can remember the time,thinking about a time in Georgia
path and maps course with 35people is in a hotel room and I
believe there had not been,there might not have been any
hospitality.
In this case, some somehowsomething slipped it, it wasn't

(51:42):
arranged had the great gift thatConnie among the people in the
room were Connie, lyle O'Brienand Michelle Schwartz and
another couple non compliantsouls who said you know, connie
didn't hesitate to say I'mordering a carafe of coffee and

(52:04):
before the end of the day, youknow, we conferred with Michelle
about it as well, who of coursehad all kinds of fabulous
energy.
And we look at the group andsay there just wasn't anything
provided and it won't bepossible that way.
Would you please go home andlook in your cupboards?
Somebody wants to bakesomething great, stop somewhere,

(52:27):
but just bring what you got.
Well, I think it still standsout for me as one of the most
remarkable co-created events.
And then we started to put thegraphic posters up on the wall
and the environment iscompletely transformed.
We had people from all over thehotel, including the people who

(52:49):
worked for the hotel, coming into say can we talk about what
you're doing here and why?
Why is the space like this?
Why are people laughing so much?
What is happening here?
And there would have been everyreason for that not to have
worked.
And I think about the times thatthe space oof California.

(53:13):
We're in a space.
There's electronic curtains,there's fancy technological
stuff.
We're in a room very fancyconference space, that I can't
feel the people.
I'm physically there, but maybethere's 100 people.

(53:37):
But the space is so vast andthe tables are so far that I
thought, uh, there's noresonance, it's not happening.
And external forces intervened.
I think we were in Sacramentoand the power went out.

(54:00):
The fancy, dancey conferenceroom wasn't going to work for
day two, and so now there's atelephone tree to let people
know where we're going to bemeeting.
It's one of the organizationsin way too small a space.
We had talked about gifts.

(54:22):
People came with music, guitars, food.
There was this awfulcircumstance that then turned
out to be the most fabulousconversation.
That also gave us anopportunity to talk about
holding space, setting thecontainer, creating the

(54:44):
conditions, naming what wasn'tworking the day before and
making transparent what ishappening between us in this
space now.
And then the third is the daythe power went out, when we're
convening a session in RhodeIsland and the only place people

(55:06):
can gather with their hats andgloves still on in Northern
Rhode Island is upstairs in someloft.
We need wall space.
There is no wall space.
We put flip charts on the backof a mattress and had with this
group of people in what youmight have otherwise said can't

(55:27):
work.
People's creative juices justwent wild because we said, well,
sure, we can do this, okay,okay, what would it take?
Let's all do this.
What's the conversation we wantto have?
And we invented it, and so muchof that really also certainly

(55:48):
comes as the co-facilitators andthe other people you're hosting
with, you can't be in a pointof despair that is contagious
Despair.
No, does not work.
But when you say, okay, sure,sure, we could figure this out,

(56:08):
right, I don't know, I thinkabout our friend Erwin inventing
, thinking about the purpose ofan invent and inventing one of
the things we did together inthe Netherlands on a boat, right
, but it just you think aboutlooping back to what's the

(56:29):
intention, and it has not onlyto do with thinking about the
people and the processes, butthe environment and the
container, and that, of course,leads you to think about.
So what are the conversationsyou want to have, what are the
big messy questions we couldengage in that will get people

(56:49):
to get knee to knee and dive inand connect more deeply.

David Hasbury (56:55):
I think, of some keywords throughout this
conversation Intention is one,but we is another.
So the sense of we and whetherit's creating the conditions for
we to be the experience Can, isanother one.

(57:18):
With whatever you've got, wecan do something.
And the possible as a kind ofguiding star out there that kind
of says, okay, what's possiblewith what we have, what more is
possible with what we have?

(57:40):
And I've just put this outthere because, again, from the
ordinary extraordinary thing,there are no ideals.
You aspire from wherever youare, with whatever, you have to
make an experience.
And if we is the experience,there's always something that's

(58:02):
possible in all of this kind ofthing.

Lynda Kahn (58:05):
Oh my gosh.
I think about something Ilistened to and came across
early 2000s.
That was a young man with AIDSwho was in Cozy Johnson who said

(58:28):
something pretty much like doall you can with what you have
in the place you are.
And I also think that when youask about preparation and what
do you think about?
I think I've really beennoticing and intentional about

(58:54):
the fact that when I'm at mybest, I'm vulnerable.
I have a tender heart and thereare times that I can even
notice when my heart is too hard, I'm too full of this is

(59:19):
annoying me and that is annoyingme and I can't find my grace
and I think about what do I needto do to sink back into the
passion I hold for this?
The curiosity, the love, thejust being in that more

(59:47):
vulnerable, tender space is whenI'm actually a better listener,
a better facilitator.
I can't say this is going tohave been my best, but probably
an hour ago maybe, when youasked me about so, the early

(01:00:10):
years, and I started to talkabout my mom, I absolutely we
probably could both go back I'vehad a quiver in my voice and
tears in my eye and to theextent that I wondered will I
just be able to relax and justshow up as me, even if it just

(01:00:30):
sounds like me.
That's what it takes.

David Hasbury (01:00:36):
I wholeheartedly agree.
I can always feel when I'vehardened, and especially when
I'm with a group of people, andsometimes the setting is
actually what hardens me a lot.
But I wonder if you could justspeak of and it comes kind of

(01:00:57):
out of this thing, because thatsoftening vulnerability is a
part of what's important.
Not because, for just becausethere's authentic when we're in
that space, because it's morereal than a lot of things, but
when you think of what thelanguage is that you use, that

(01:01:19):
would have that softness to itin order to make an invitation,
in order to listen to people andorder to encourage people to
talk.
Can you just talk about the waythat you talk when you're kind
of hosting and creatinghospitality?

Lynda Kahn (01:01:37):
Oh, it's interesting .
I think that you can hearsomething different in your own
voice when you tune in, when Ithink about how lucky I really
was to meet Wendy Palmer andencounter conscious embodiment

(01:02:01):
and her work at the ShambhalaInstitute.
We went one summer maybe Iwanted to know this date 2005, 6
, 7, 8, 9, something like thatand in meeting her she was so

(01:02:24):
wise about connecting into yourbody and not the first time that
someone had talked about.
Tune in to what's happening toyou physically, think about how
you settle in, extend yourenergy, appreciate where you are

(01:02:49):
in space, holding that space,and think about a quality that
you want to bring more of intothis circumstance.
And when I do that and Iactually still the quality I
hold most often is what would itbe like if I had a little more
grace?
Because that's the quality attimes that can be the biggest

(01:03:16):
stretch and can be the space inwhich, when I listen from that
space, I'm both more vulnerableand have courage, I can hold
curiosity and be less certainthat the questions are actually

(01:03:45):
so important for creating theexploration.
And so when I can remind myselfabout those kinds of things and
I keep thinking about ways tokind of notice, the
tenderheartedness and whatcreates a tender heart, and have

(01:04:09):
complete mayday when Iunderstand that I've just gotten
frustrated this didn't send,that didn't go, this didn't go
and you go.
Oh no, you're going to have tolet that go because we're not
going to make it here, you'renot going to bring that kind of
curiosity and I guess some ofthe language includes.

(01:04:31):
Tell me more what I mean.
There's exploring kinds oflanguage that connects with
people and I think it justreally matters to me and I'm
still learning about what's ittake for people to feel seen and

(01:05:00):
heard and held and not haverushed to a solution or to quick
response.
I have had great teachers in mychildren.
I still remember Laura tellingme a story and I started to
offer a solution and she gave methe hand.
I went sad.

(01:05:24):
Sometimes, mom, a girl justwants her mother to bear witness
.
Okay, okay, I got you All right, noted, thank you.
Thanks for that.

David Hasbury (01:05:36):
Well, it's interesting because I think you
referenced a couple of thingshere.
You talked about just theattention and awareness to your
inner condition which actuallyallows you to be in touch with
what that tenderhearted place is.
It's not a language place, it'sactually it's pre-language, and

(01:06:02):
in the conversation with Johnhe talks about that as well,
that the first communicationisn't words, it's before the
words.
And part of the thing about allthis is if we're in language
first and not in tenderheartedfirst, the language covers the

(01:06:25):
tender heart and from the notionof inclusion and the notion of
many of the people that we'vecome to know, for whom language
is not their skill, they're notlinguists in the way that they
communicate, having thatcommunication be the tender

(01:06:47):
heart is actually a reallyimportant element.

Lynda Kahn (01:06:54):
I think that's right and I have come to appreciate
that.
The aspect also that I thinkwe're energy and we move in an
energetic field.
And if you will open yourselfup to noticing that about who

(01:07:21):
you are and what else is goingon in the space, then you will
not just see, you will feel whensomeone else is either hurting
or feeling at the edge, and youcan make a decision about
whether or not you're leaninginto that connection and going

(01:07:44):
to notice that or not.
And I can think aboutrelationships that I have that
are really important.
That began that way, where itwas just someone that I noticed
in a very big field of peopleand I could see and sat next to.

(01:08:12):
And as we're both lookingforward, do you want to tell me
about it?
Do you want to talk about it?
I want some ideas for what wemight do about it.
Yeah, and well, I've been lucky.
I've been lucky in that way tohave some very good teachers.

(01:08:36):
You know it's funny, dave, Iwas really thinking about that.
Inner condition also has to dowith something ourselves which
people are often not verycomfortable doing, but I want to
see the other.
I was thinking about some ofthe influences.
Talk to you guys about thislittle book.

David Hasbury (01:09:00):
Well, that was my next question I was going to
ask you about oh, that's coolthe love prescription.
Who's that by?

Lynda Kahn (01:09:07):
John and Julie Gottman and um, and it is really
about noticing connection andwhen at times, in the smallest
ways, we experience bid for bidsfor connection, even in our

(01:09:29):
most intimate relationships andtheir and friendships, and you
either are turning towards orturning away or turning against.
And so there are some veryproactive suggestions about
noticing this and appreciationsand things.
I came to it because when ReneeBrown had her podcast on

(01:09:53):
locking us, she interviewed themand I thought, oh yeah, this is
good and as we call him poorJack, then the book reading on
all the books on audible of thebook on a ride home from the

(01:10:13):
schoolhouse and and really inthe immediate many months after
that it, it made a positivedifference in our relationship
and I realized from time to timeall of these relationships
really need intention, attentionand intention.
So I think it's interestingthat I was.

(01:10:37):
I think it's a really greatexample of it, of the people who
you know have been hosting me.
It's connecting together, it'sright, I'm in attention with a
circle of friends.
It's thinking about what ittakes to cultivate new
connections and and I often findother and saying, oh, I just, I

(01:11:03):
just, it's been way too long,you know and I.
It's the hardest thing aboutCOVID which I think lingers
still.
It is still much harder to findpersonal connection.
Time and relationships changedin that period, as we know, and

(01:11:24):
I think about how much intentionit brings and the difference
there is between being on aphone call, or even a Zoom call,
and what happens when you'rejust hanging out.

David Hasbury (01:11:38):
Well, I certainly know it because when we get to
come and stop by your placewhich is a ritual for us on our
way up to Canada to do that.
But I love what you just raisedis the notion that connects
with intercondition and theno-sting of hosting and
hospitality to yourself and tothose who are closest to you, as

(01:12:01):
a kind of spirit.
So before we started thisconversation, you gave me a
couple of reference points.
One was Priya Parker and theArt of Gathering, and another
was Heather Plett and the Art ofHolding Space.
And now you've offered the LoveConnection.

Lynda Kahn (01:12:26):
Is that what it is?
The Love Prescription?
Well, I have some of ourfriends nearby Great, yeah, I
have, and I didn't get them all.
But it was interesting to thinkabout this conversation and the
kinds of things that intersect,because the idea of having

(01:12:53):
practices and the idea of doinginner work and my background
includes I studied to be aspecial education teacher always
had an interest in folks whohave been pushed to the margin
and loved the kids I taught inthe classroom, but really wasn't

(01:13:19):
sure that that was the role forme.
Long-term, though, I lovedteaching, and then I encountered
organizational change andsystems theory and group
dynamics and that continued.
So that was a real earlyconnection to facilitation,

(01:13:46):
holding questions, payingattention to invisible dynamics
and making them visible, and sothat whole body of work was
pretty interesting and so Icould take a photo of some of
the books.

David Hasbury (01:14:05):
But not to be forgotten would be this, yes,
absolutely great book Learningto Listen by Herb Leavitt.

Lynda Kahn (01:14:12):
But the intersections of listening and
holding space and some of theart of hosting practices that
we've come, that we'veexperienced, where you just
think about what are ways thatpeople come together in large
and small group conversations.

(01:14:33):
What's the art of the question?
So I'm sure there's one here.
Okay, we'll just stay with thelistening theme.
Right, Julia Cameron'sListening Path.

David Hasbury (01:14:46):
The Listening Path by Julia Cameron, and we
will make a list of these booksin the description for the
podcast.

Lynda Kahn (01:14:54):
So you'll be happy to know, when you grab the
little love prescription bookand listen to it on your next
airplane ride, that there is yes, there's a workbook and journal
, and I love a journal for thequestions and prompts, because I
really do think the art of thequestion is complete intrigue to

(01:15:17):
me.
I'm no master but I, you know,a good one when you come up
against it.

David Hasbury (01:15:23):
First of all, I just want to say thank you for
this.
It was fun, I enjoyed it and itactually one of the things that
I'm learning and doing this.
This is my fourth conversationfor this kind of a and it's a
practice and what I this gettingto the place of feeling

(01:15:46):
conversation is really what Iwould hope for and this was a.
This was a lovely experience.
I really want to thank you.
Plus, I think it's just was itgenerated a huge amount of
accessible experience,perspective and understanding,
and I think that is available topeople.

(01:16:08):
So I really want to say thanksfor that, thanks for listening.
Stay tuned for future episodesexploring more aspects of what
it takes to recreate a moreinclusive and dynamic experience
of us.
Please subscribe to our podcastat your favorite podcast outlet

(01:16:31):
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