August 6, 2024 • 50 mins
Have you ever felt trapped by your own expectations of others or the outcomes of your efforts? This episode of "Redefining Normal" with Jamy and I explores the liberating practice of releasing attachments to both. By challenging our conditioning to control life and people around us, we open the door to understanding ourselves better and fostering more authentic relationships. We particularly focus on the dynamics within partnerships, discussing how expectations can turn into controlling behaviors and how letting go can lead to healthier connections.
Relationships are meant to evolve, and this episode highlights the importance of not clinging to specific outcomes. We discuss how acknowledging personal growth and changes within a partnership doesn't signify failure but rather a natural progression. The notion of compulsory monogamy is also put under the microscope, as we argue that true love involves accepting and validating each other's evolving selves. Through personal stories, we illustrate the value of staying present and committed to the journey, regardless of the uncertainties that relationships might bring.
Lastly, we dive into the strength found in self-reliance and emotional resilience. Reflecting on personal experiences, we emphasize the importance of recognizing our responsibility for self-care and healing, even while seeking support from friends. We discuss how shifting our perspective can turn life's disruptions into opportunities for growth, encouraging listeners to embrace the full spectrum of human emotions. By being true to ourselves and not contorting to fit others' expectations, we attract relationships that appreciate us for who we truly are. Join us for this insightful conversation on authenticity, self-love, and the journey of personal and relational growth.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Welcome to Redefining Normal.
Join us as we questionconventional thinking and talk
about the courage it takes tocreate and live a deliciously
vibrant life.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
This podcast is for people who know there's a better
way to do life and love how weshow up in connection to others
our kids, our partners, ourbusiness and, beyond that, our
relationship with money,vitality and, more than anything
, ourselves.
Speaker 1 (00:26):
We're two shamelessly unapologetic moms choosing to
experience the fullness of life.
Speaker 2 (00:32):
And we're collapsing the conditioning that says you
can't live a life of pleasure,peace and abundance in the midst
of the mundane of life,responsibilities, work and kids.
Speaker 1 (00:43):
Thank you for listening in.
Let's do this.
On this episode of RedefiningNormal, jamie and I are diving
into the topic of releasingattachment to outcomes and
people.
I'm really excited about thischat.
It's Jamie, we've been having areally good as we do.
This is what happens with us.
We are always catching up andthen we have a conversation.
(01:05):
We're like, oh my God, we haveto talk about this.
So both of us were justchatting about relationships
that we are both in and howcertain people can have
expectations of an outcome, andso we wanted to start to kind of
dive into, to start with, like,what is the current
(01:27):
conditioning around having theseattachments, outcomes, whether
they're in our personalrelationships, like you know,
person to person, or even, likeI would even go as far as to say
money or items or all thesedifferent things Like we attach,
as humans, to stuff and people,and it isn't always a healthy
(01:47):
experience.
Speaker 2 (01:49):
Yeah, well, we attach to an idea of something.
I think of this, as you know,like we think we know the way it
should be, the way it shouldlook, what we want it to look
like, and that is almostcounterintuitive to the fact
that there is a flow of life,there is, um, there is a current
(02:12):
that's happening.
It's, it happened, you know,long before any of us were here.
It's going to happen long afterwe go, and then we think we
drop in and we're going tocontrol it and we're going to
make it look a certain way andwe're going to, you know, like,
manufacture um outcomes andspecific experiences and um
(02:35):
specific relationships.
And it has to do with our owncomfort level, probably, right,
like, think about, like I, Iwant to feel loved, so I need my
person to do A, b and C inorder for me to feel that.
And the problem with that is wedon't, we have no control over
other people's actions, right?
So it becomes ourresponsibility to kind of let go
(02:58):
of what happens outside of usand focus more on how we
navigate, how we respond, how weperceive those things that are
happening outside of us, becausethe attachment is that thing
outside of me is going to lookor be or happen the way I think
it should.
Speaker 1 (03:17):
Yeah, yeah, I think so much in life really becomes
like how we respond to thingsultimately is everything.
So when we look at this from acurrent perspective of what
we're doing in the world and Iwould say you and I have seen
this in our own marriages, inour own relationships, in our
own relationship with so manythings, and not just us, but
(03:38):
like with our clients and, uh,friends all around the world- I
mean like yeah.
So so, when we look at this froma current perspective, what
would you say is what'scurrently?
What's currently the norm,cause we're breaking, we're
redefining normal, so what'scurrently Right?
Speaker 2 (03:57):
Right.
I mean I would say that thenorm is yeah To to to just try
and control everything, try toforce life to look a certain way
in order to not feel the thingsthat it brings up when it
doesn't.
I mean, isn't that why we, whywe even create an idea?
Is, if it happens this way,it's going to confirm to me what
(04:21):
I want to feel.
It's going to confirm to mewhat I believe to be true versus
well, like we were talkingearlier, the ability to lean
into.
I have no idea what my responseis going to be to this
situation and I'd actuallyreally like to experience it so
that I understand more of myselfand my capacity to respond to
(04:41):
life.
It may get dicey, it may get alittle weird to respond to life.
Speaker 3 (04:47):
It may get dicey it may get a little weird.
Speaker 2 (04:49):
It may get a little stressful.
Speaker 3 (04:49):
My nervous system might be a little.
My nervous system might get alittle jacked up, right, but
let's do it.
Speaker 2 (04:59):
Let's like, let's lean into the unknown, to the
uncomfortable, in order to findmore parts of ourselves, in
order to become more aware ofwhat we actually are, and not
what we're trying to be or whatwe think we should be.
Speaker 1 (05:12):
It's like the thing that keeps coming to me to say,
to add to this is like one ofthe ways that I see this in the
spiritual world or the personaldevelopment world in such a huge
way, is women to men right?
Women who are in partnershipwith a man, who we are.
And I say this because,generally speaking, the women
are evolving and growing beforeand faster than a lot of the men
(05:35):
of this world.
Yeah, we've been engaged in thespace longer, not all, not
fully, true, but in many waysthis is the dynamic right.
And so a lot of women wanttheir men to come in and show up
a certain way and be a certainway and go do this path and dah,
dah, dah.
And then we try and control apath for them of how they're
supposed to awaken and howthey're supposed to be and how
(05:58):
they're supposed to show up forus and how they're supposed to
like, whatever Right.
And then we hold this I, Idon't even know like it is a
control, I guess at some levelor we, it's an expectation yeah,
yeah transaction that theydon't necessarily want to or
can't meet yeah right and I cansee it.
Speaker 2 (06:20):
I mean, I know I've been there, we've both been
there, we've asked our men to dothings in my marriage and in
yours, b and C, because I was,because that's what's normal,
because that you know, whateverthe story is, um, we, we don't
(06:49):
have control over these soulsthat are becoming themselves in
this world, like we're here toguidepost their journey and
offer wisdom and support.
Um, but we don't, we don't, wedon't have control over how, who
and what they are in the world.
Speaker 3 (07:07):
you know and the same thing.
Speaker 1 (07:10):
Yeah, right, the same thing if I were to take it into
the relationship with money,because so many of us want to
control money, like it has tocome this way it has to be this
way and I, I should be.
I I've got how many times have Iheard this?
I should be in a better placeright now in my life and I
should have this and because I'm50 years old, or I'm 40 years
old, like I should be furtherahead, right, right, and it
(07:30):
should look like this and ifmoney is this, then that means
whatever I'm worthy of you.
Speaker 2 (07:36):
Right yeah.
Speaker 1 (07:37):
Or if I have this much money I'm worthy of Right,
Right and I'm successful.
Speaker 2 (07:42):
I'm yeah.
All of these things.
Speaker 1 (07:45):
So we put so much attachment onto something
outside of ourselves to reallypretty much validate ourselves,
right, right, and so that's whatit looks like, and if you were
to look at this from a currentperspective of, I would actually
ask the question where are youlooking outside yourself to
validate yourself?
Yes, to make yourself feelbetter, to make yourself like
(08:10):
worthy, to make yourselfsuccessful.
Speaker 2 (08:12):
Yeah, yes, I mean like it's really a
self-protection mechanism, right, like it's the fear of feeling
all the things we don't want tofeel, whether it's money,
whether it's parenting, whetherit's relationship, whether it's
work, whatever it is.
It's like if this happens acertain way, then I can feel,
(08:33):
whatever my story is, because Idon't want to feel the opposite,
I don't want to feel unworthy,I don't want to feel scared, I
don't want to feel like afailure.
I don't, you know all thesethings.
But what if we did like?
What if we were like?
What, what?
What does failure feel like,and can I integrate that and
kind of learn what it has toshow me?
What does disappointment show?
Speaker 3 (08:54):
me.
Speaker 2 (08:55):
What does you know?
I mean, all of these thingsreveal more of us, you know?
I mean that's what we're hereto do.
We are here to experience thethings, all the things, the full
range, the good and the bad,and we learn with every, with
every single opportunity that'spresented us.
Speaker 1 (09:15):
Yeah, I think, I think it's important to say here
too that this is totally normal, Like, don't like, as you hear
us talking about this, don't belike.
Oh my God, I'm a bad personbecause this is happening,
because it's totally normal thisis the way we operate.
Speaker 3 (09:26):
Like this is why we're talking about it?
Speaker 1 (09:31):
because we're going through some of it, right
because we're seeing in ourrelationships right or we're
seeing actually for us today.
What we're talking about isseeing how it's different and
it's become a journey for us tonot get so attached and to be
able to recognize the placesthat we are, because this is
what will happen, is that thingswill come in, people will come
in that will show us like, hey,am I doing this differently?
(09:51):
Do I need to attach to you?
Do I right?
And how am I showing updifferently?
How am I responding differentlyand in the conversation we're
having, being like and am Iwilling to walk the path to feel
the things that I know I willfeel by not attaching to the
outcome, to this right Toknowing and like.
(10:11):
What we're talking about, too,is like to knowing that in
relationship, in lovingrelationship, that I mean.
I say this and I said it in my,the book that is coming.
I am working on the edits thisweekend, jamie, it's going to go
in.
It's going going in.
It ends with me.
Um, one of the things I talkabout is I, after marriage, I
was like I don't believe in aquote unquote the one.
Yeah, right, like I already hadmy quote, unquote the one.
(10:34):
It didn't work.
We're not together anymore, soconsequently, why would I assume
that from now on, that I'mgoing to have other one?
You're?
Speaker 2 (10:43):
going to find another one, right.
Speaker 1 (10:45):
Maybe, or I'm going to have other one.
You're going to find anotherone, right?
Speaker 2 (10:50):
Maybe, or I'm going to have a one until it's no
longer a one.
I think this is so healthy Like, because when you think about,
like, compulsory monogamy, right?
This idea that, like we'resupposed to pair up and do this
thing, that's beautiful.
If you're doing it.
With this awareness of like, weare going to change a million
times over and in each iterationof us.
(11:11):
If we're still a beautiful fitand a complimentary fit for each
other, awesome.
But also this awareness that,like, sometimes we change in
different directions and can wehonor those changes.
Like, sometimes we change indifferent directions and can we
honor those changes.
Like, can we love each other inexactly where we are in the
whole journey.
Speaker 1 (11:29):
You know, like I think it's really.
I think it's one of the mostbeautiful things in the world
actually, as I've watched moreand more people these last few
years this last yearspecifically actually a lot of
really beautiful loving coupleswho, like, when you look at them
, you're like, oh my God, likewhat a beautiful loving
relationship you have.
(11:49):
And they get to the place wherewe are no longer lying.
It's not that you're a badperson, not that we didn't have
an amazing relationship, but wehave different paths now, and to
watch people uncouple that wayis so, it's so honoring of
exactly what we were talkingabout here.
It's like when you releaseattachment to the fact that a
person is your everything.
Speaker 2 (12:07):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (12:08):
Right and that you are come together for a time and
a place for the healing thatyou have.
Like the truth is that you walkinto something like for me I
look at it and I go.
I walk into something knowinglike it may end and at some
point this may hurt.
But am I not going to bepresent and in love in the
moment and appreciate what Ihave in the moment for as many
(12:30):
moments and as many days, whichcould be months, years, the rest
of my life, I don't know.
Speaker 3 (12:36):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (12:37):
Until it's no longer a fuck.
Yes, Right.
Right.
Speaker 2 (12:41):
And how do we do that without I want to say cause I
did this, I fuck, I did it in mymarriage, but I contorting
ourselves to be somebody thatwe're not in order for it to
meet the relationship talk aboutuncoupling and and I feel like
(13:08):
Kyle and I are in a similar Imean like we've come to the
place where we prioritize ourtogetherness and we recognize
what that means is that I'mgoing to choose to validate and
honor whatever iteration of himis showing up at the table and
whatever dynamics that changes,but it doesn't change that I
love him and I'm here for him,and that gets to look a million
different ways.
(13:29):
Right, so it's an, it's anunattaching from a certain
picture or idea or outcome.
Right, Like this is kind ofwhat we started with is no
attachment to a specific outcomeand committing to being on the
journey and loving each otherthrough whatever outcome,
whatever experience, whateverchallenge comes to the table.
(13:52):
And that that means the unknown, right.
The scary thing about that islike it's unknown.
I have no idea what iterationmay show up, but I am committed
to journeying it and notcollapsing, not running away,
not, you know, going into my ownwounding, but staying present,
staying at the table and stayingself reflective and responsible
(14:14):
in whatever that looks like.
Speaker 1 (14:17):
And I think the thing that I love about that and I
know for me it's something thatI now bring into my relationship
is like looking with fresh eyes, like every every time you see
someone being like who are youtoday and I know with with my ex
and I with you, and I like itwasn't and I and I would see him
, but still to this day he holdsme in who I was years ago.
Yeah, right, he still holds meas a crazy I mean, this is what
(14:40):
his words, not mine but a crazydramatic.
Ultimately, he would call mecrazy psychos based people.
Right, like he sees me as atotally fucked up, mentally
unwell woman and he still holdsme there.
Speaker 2 (14:53):
Right.
You know what he holds himselfin old versions too because, in
order to see new versions ofother people, we also have to
recognize new versions ofourselves every day.
Speaker 1 (15:03):
Right.
And so when you hold somebodyin those places because I, you
know and I and I and I'm reallyfully on her like, yeah, I had
some mental health stuff goingon and yeah, it could be really
up and down and would have beenreally challenging for him, I am
not the same person anymore.
No, yeah.
(15:25):
Right.
So when we can look at ourintimate friendships or intimate
partnerships and say I see youtoday as you are and I accept
you today as you are, and Istill want to be here today with
you as you are and I don't wantto change you.
Speaker 3 (15:38):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (15:39):
Like that's where we come to an unattachment right.
I choose you today, yeah.
Speaker 3 (15:43):
Because I've got myself and whatever it brings up
.
Speaker 2 (15:46):
Right.
I mean like, ultimately, it'sthe capacity to hold ourselves
and to, to, to be with whateversomebody else's choices, actions
, whatever brings up in us.
Speaker 1 (15:59):
That's how we can show up for that choice of not
being attached yeah, okay, socan we talk a little bit more
about, um, holding ourselves?
Because I think, ultimately,for anyone who's listening like
this to me, this to me is thebiggest gift the last two years
has been.
Having left a marriage is thegreatest gift it has given me,
especially, like I just said, inmy mental health stuff, like it
(16:21):
really taught me, like I have.
I mean, yes, I have beautifulfriends like Jamie and some
other people that hold me, whichis true, but at the end of the
day, I'm still home alone bymyself.
Speaker 2 (16:35):
Yeah, yeah, I mean, we're not meant to do it alone,
and part of holding ourselves isseeking wise counsel, is
seeking support when we need itand not trying to run to the
thing that isn't working the waywe want it to.
Right, right.
Speaker 1 (16:44):
Right, and in the end , I'm still the one who has to
pick up my pieces and keepmoving Right, so I can come to
Jamie and I can go.
Jamie, this is all fallingapart and I don't know what to
do and I'm in a fucking mess.
And can you help me out?
Right, and she'll be there, ahundred percent.
But the truth is that the helpout after that is me taking
those steps, is me loving myself, is me holding myself, and it
has been the greatest gift,because for so long I couldn't
(17:06):
do it Right and because I cannow, it's like throw it at me.
Speaker 3 (17:12):
What are you going to give me?
Do this.
Speaker 1 (17:14):
Right, Like.
What are you going to give methat I can't like?
That I mean honestly, after thelast two years.
What are you going to give me,world, that I can't hold myself
through?
Right.
Speaker 2 (17:22):
You know how, how paradigm shifting it is that
when you really look at thatbecause I think that a lot of
people the mind will go to theworst case scenario, the most
negative experience.
And then when you remind thatpart of you like and look at you
now like you made it through,you navigated it, you are
healthy and whole and here.
So really you're you're like 10for 10, a hundred for a hundred
(17:47):
, like whatever challengingsituation you've experienced
you've made it through becauseyou're still here and yeah,
maybe there's some scars, maybethere's some, you know things
that need to be worked through,but you've made it like you're
still here and the mind forgetsthat.
The mind gets stuck in the fearof, like the bad thing happened
(18:08):
Interesting.
So like when we were in London,I traveled with a friend and she
missed her flight.
Weird, the weirdest.
Like it felt like a frickingdimensional timeline weird thing
because she was gettingnotifications that her flight
was canceled or not canceled,delayed, right.
So we were operating on like atwo hour delay canceled, delayed
(18:33):
, right.
So we were operating on like atwo-hour delay.
We get to the airport and thereis nobody in line for this
flight.
The flight desk, baggage isclosed, like, like there isn't a
flight that's happening in twohours and um, according to the
system, the flight was alreadylike, boarded and gone, but the
app was saying it was delayed.
So she missed the flight.
(18:54):
She didn't actually like.
Afterwards we found out theflight did leave delayed.
She could have gotten throughsecurity, could have whatever,
but the system was glitching orsomething.
I don't know.
Um, the next day, you know, weget our new ticket, we're back
at the airport and she's like,oh my God, I'm like she was
anxious and I'm going to miss myflight.
And oh my God, and I'm likewhat happens if you miss your
(19:16):
flight?
Cause what happened?
Like you missed your flightyesterday, what happened and
immediately went to worst casescenario, like I'm not going to
get home, I'm going to have tobuy another ticket, like all
these bad things.
And I'm like, interesting,cause, what else happened
yesterday?
And I'm like, interesting,cause, what else happened
yesterday?
Like we had a whole nother dayin London.
We went to visit the spot thatshe like one of the things on
(19:38):
her list that we didn't havetime to do, so we had a whole
nother opportunity to do all ofthese things.
She got to you know, check morethings off the list.
We had a beautiful dinner, hertickets getting reimbursed, like
all of these things.
So like there was a lot ofbeauty that we didn't see
because the mind automatically,automatically, went to like
worst case scenario.
So this unattachment from itlooking some some way opens us
(20:04):
to seeing all of the beautifulthings that come with that one
challenging bit that we getstuck on, if we're attached to
it looking a certain way.
Speaker 1 (20:17):
It makes me think generally speaking.
I love that story.
It makes me think generallyspeaking of like, constantly
looking for the silver linings.
You know, I know for me againwith with my 51 shock line, like
I receive things in shock allthe time.
Speaker 2 (20:29):
Yeah, and you have to be willing to look for the gift
Right?
Speaker 1 (20:56):
no-transcript.
Probably like shake otherpeople and did shake me for a
long time, I go huh, that'sinteresting yeah okay, what's
next?
and it takes me a minute or two.
Right, it takes me a minute orsometimes a couple hours to
process through it.
But when you can always see thesilver lining, like even when
we've talked about I thinkalready on the podcast when my
(21:17):
the guy, scott that I was datinggot into bed with my best
friend, like it took me threedays to process that and I
promise you all people, like itreally took me longer, but like
it took me three days to findthe silver lining truly, and
about a week later I was like,oh my God, what a gift.
Speaker 3 (21:35):
And I knew even in the moment, even in the moment
when my ex best friend wassaying to me Carrie, you know,
there's a gift in this.
I was like F you gotch, you didnot have to give me this
fucking gift, right, right.
Speaker 2 (21:43):
Well, it can be paradoxical.
It can be a fuck you, and ofcourse there's a gift.
Right Like, and of coursethere's a gift.
Speaker 1 (21:49):
Right.
And so, in that moment, thoughit's still only took me like it
truly was a gift in the factthat I it was my no, like this
is the last time, Cause it hadto get this ridiculous for it to
be for me to finally say F, no,like we are not doing this ever
again and I have not doneanything like that ever again.
Speaker 2 (22:09):
The gift doesn't always bubbly, feel good thing
Sometimes.
It's sometimes right, it isunderstanding boundaries.
Sometimes it is navigatingpainful heartbreak and
recognizing how strong you are.
Like this idea that the gift isalways something just pretty,
elated and beautiful isdistorted because, because the
(22:30):
gift is gross, the gift isevolution, the gift is new
perspective.
But you do, you have to beintentional about looking for
and finding that, because themind automatically sees the risk
, the pain, the negative,because that's its job is to
protect you from that, you know.
So the default will always beto identify the risk or the
(22:56):
negative, and you really have tochoose to find, to identify, to
acknowledge even what is goodabout this.
What is the benefit here?
Yeah, and you can't do that ifyou're attached to a specific
outcome.
If it doesn't look like this,it's bad, and if it looks like
this, it's good.
It's going to limit you so muchin all areas of life, all areas
(23:22):
of life.
Speaker 1 (23:23):
Yeah, so the faster that we can realize that we've
got.
So we were talking about thisfrom the beginning, right?
So, like, how do we holdourselves?
So in those moments, for meit's like, in those moments, you
can fully collapse and again,this comes from somebody who's
had mental health issues for along time yes, we can fully
collapse and we can let it takeover us and we can feel like a
victim to the situation or wecan say, okay, so this thing
(23:47):
happened for us to show ussomething.
What is this revealing to me?
How am I going to hold myself?
Now?
For me, holding myself is likerecognizing, first of all.
Generally speaking, in thosemoments, my first reaction will
be some sort of in my nervoussystem.
It will feel really jacked up,it will feel really anxious, I
will feel like my heart willstart racing.
My butterfly there'll bebutterflies in my stomach and I
(24:09):
probably, at some point, if itgets hard enough, my butterfly
there'll be butterflies in mystomach and I probably, at some
point, if it gets hard enough,we'll struggle to breathe and
like it feels really frickingintense.
Speaker 2 (24:16):
It is a psychosomatic response.
It's not make-believe.
Nope, it is there right.
Speaker 1 (24:21):
Yes, and it doesn't matter, like this can come from
something extreme, like what Ijust said, or it can come from
like some little thing that'seven with your kids that you're
like I don't really like thatyou're doing this, or I feel
really nervous that you're outwith this person, or, but
they're safe, but they're justnot.
It's not a response that youcan control or you you know so.
Like you get to sit in, can Ihold myself in someone else's
(24:41):
choices or something else that'shappening outside of myself and
recognize, hey, my nervoussystem is feeling really out of
whack right now.
Right, how do I need to holdmyself?
What do I need right now, inthis moment, to balance myself,
to feel better, to hear myself?
Um, then my next place would befrom there, actually, probably
(25:05):
right now.
Lately, it's like seeing mylittle girl Like, hey, where are
you?
What do you need right now?
Yeah, because she's the onesomewhere inside of me that's
having a freak out and shedoesn't feel safe.
And I, if I bring her in andI'm like okay, what do we need,
the two of us, right now, tofeel okay within ourselves?
Speaker 3 (25:22):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (25:23):
Well, this is what we're talking about Not
abandoning yourself, right?
Because oftentimes that littlegirl gets abandoned by you in
order to accommodate somebodyelse's expectation.
So, yeah, you have to notabandon yourself in order to not
be abandoned.
Speaker 1 (25:41):
Right, but ultimately , like in the event, like we, we
fear as humans, abandon it.
So much right that we thencreate it to go learn this.
I mean, like this has been mydating scenario.
Like let me just replay outabandonment issues over and over
and learn this.
Yeah, I mean, like this hasbeen my dating scenario.
Like let me just replay outabandonment issues over and over
and over again.
Right, just that I could learnto hold myself and be like right
.
Apparently, I still need tolearn this one, right, right,
well, because this is it right?
Speaker 2 (26:01):
Like if, if we want a certain outcome and we aren't
willing to see anything outsideof that outcome, we will, like
you said, contort ourselves andtwist ourselves and become
something to fit into that thing, versus, in order to contort
ourselves, you've got to abandonparts of you that are like no,
(26:23):
thank you, I do not want to dothat thing, but we will abandon
that part of us to accommodatesomebody else's expectation in
order to see the outcome we want.
So, yeah, I come back.
Speaker 1 (26:37):
I think a distinction here too, that would be really
helpful is and I know in the, inthe journey I'm on right now,
right Like it can look like insome ways, my choices could be
like am I abandoning myself?
And I do question it Like am Iabandoning my needs and my wants
and my desires?
Speaker 3 (26:50):
Right.
Speaker 1 (26:51):
Or am I willing to put myself in a place that could
also feel a little bit stickyto also have what I want Right?
Am I willing to lean into anedge that's like, oh, that's a
little bit uncomfortable.
Speaker 2 (27:03):
Right.
Speaker 1 (27:04):
And I want this Right , right.
Is this contorting myself or isthis feeling edgy and edgy can
also feel a little bit likeanxiety and contorting, like
what is my true desire andreally feel the difference in
these nuances when you askyourself like, am I willing?
And then, when you start tolearn to hold yourself, you're
(27:26):
willing to go to these edgesfurther.
Speaker 2 (27:28):
Yeah, because there's a practice in that, too right,
like learning how to stabilizeyour nervous system, and doing
that when it's not triggered isimportant.
Understanding I often thinkabout this is like, um, taking a
walk through the scary forestduring the day, when you can see
the path, you can see the trees, you can see everything, so
(27:49):
that when it's dark you're notlike I have no idea where I am
and what's going on, and you'vegot some resources to navigate
the scary part.
So, like practicing what you'retalking about, like what are
your resources for coming backinto your body, stabilizing your
nervous system, breathing,meditating, movement, like what
(28:12):
works for you?
Learn how to do that outside ofa trigger so that you have
access to it and it becomes likemuscle memory, even to like
drop back into that place.
Speaker 1 (28:23):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, a hundred percent.
And I think, the more that youknow, part of what I, part of
what I teach, is with my quantumbreath and quantum flow.
That is part of the work that Ido.
Right, like that I help myselfand my clients to actually find
ways through movement, throughbreath, to actually stabilize
their nervous system.
Because for me, this has beenthe quintessential way that I
can actually hold myself,because without it my nervous
(28:45):
system was what was actually sodysregulated that was creating
my mental health issues.
And it's been interestingbecause, as things as I've been
navigating stuff and my nervoussystem is going into this real,
that dysregulated.
Lately I'm like cause I've comemore into peace than I've ever
been.
But then I'll swing out and I'mlike, oh, thank God I don't
(29:06):
live like this anymore.
Cause, like I think about it,jamie, and I'm like man, this
was 24, seven, now I canrecognize it.
And sometimes it can take me aday or two to like bring it back
into, like, ah, okay, here'speace again, right.
Cause sometimes things are likewoo, and it's not even in that
it's still not the level ofnecessarily what it used to be,
but like even with all the toolsin the world, especially as I'm
letting go of of addictivepatterns, to again turn outside
(29:28):
of myself, right.
So I'll even say it here Likeone of the things that was my my
tool was to to turn to cannabis, right, and as I've Jamie, it's
like two months, nice job, yeah.
So as I've let go of that,because for a while everybody
like that was my way, like whenI was near panic attack, like
that was the one thing, itdidn't matter if I had all the
breath work, all the brain work,all the everything, when I was
(29:52):
at like I've got to get to mydue life and somehow that was
like thank God I had it.
And even working with myneurofeedback therapist, she's
like here, your brain is notable to regulate itself right
now.
So like it makes sense that youturn to this because it's
actually helping you dosomething you physically aren't
able to do right now.
Right.
So now that I know that I don'tactually physically need that
right now, I've been able to dothings differently and I'm
(30:14):
working to not use that as atool for my own regulation,
which means that sometimes myregulation takes a little bit
longer to hit to get to right,but I can also hold myself in it
way better than I ever could,and hence why I'm like in a
place where, okay, it's timethat I can learn to do this
without that yeah and um, and inthat, like, like you said, it
(30:39):
has to be done in a way that'soutside of the darkness.
If I only started to use breathwork tools and my quantum flow
tools and my quantum breathtools and all the things that I
have that helped me to regulatemy nervous system, now there's
no, there's, there's no way Iwould be doing right, but it's
because I've built this practiceover time that I know, you know
(31:00):
, what I can hold myself.
I can trust myself that whenI'm in this place, that somehow,
somewhere along the path, therewill be some way that I can
bring my nervous system backinto center.
Speaker 2 (31:11):
Yeah, and the goal, the goal is not to never feel
dysregulated.
We live in physical bodies withnervous systems.
It is built to react toexternal stimulus.
This is just a part of beinghuman beings.
So, like, this idea that you'regoing to get to a place where
(31:33):
that never happens is is absurd.
And I would say if, if peopleare operating that way, then
they are numbing or avoidingsomething.
Your nervous system is built todo that.
So the resource or the goal forus is to learn how to navigate
it, how to be healthy in itsresponse, to step back and
(31:57):
assess what do we need to do?
Like, is there some danger here?
Is there something I need to do?
Like, is there some danger here?
Is there something I need to do?
And to separate and kind ofuntangle the reaction from what
it is we actually really need todo in a moment, you know, and
and how to come back toconscious center, because, like
you were saying, nervous systemfirst, then kind of zoom in into
(32:21):
, like inner child, and that Ithink that it can go two ways
right, like you can zoom intothe parts of you or you can zoom
way out and see big picture,like, depending on the situation
, depending on the trigger,depending on your natural
capacity.
You know it's like so manydifferent ways, but it's it is.
(32:41):
It's almost like untanglingyour response from the current
trigger, like what my bodythinks something's happening.
Is that actually what'shappening and do I need to zoom
out or do I need to zoom in toget clearer on on the
perspective I need to take inorder to, yeah, come back to
(33:03):
center, like we are our ownmassive, complex ecosystems,
galaxies, you know, like thiswhole eternity in our own bodies
, you know.
And so when we remember thatand we start operating like that
(33:24):
in those triggers, wedefinitely make different
choices.
We respond differently to thething that did or didn't happen
the way we thought it would.
You know, right Feelscompletely different.
Speaker 1 (33:37):
Yeah, and I think at the end of the day, I mean like
we bring this back to thebeginning right At the end of
the day when we learn this andwe recognize that, as you just
said, like this is totallynormal, all of this stuff is
normal and and I think that'swhy it's so important to say
this, because even as we'retalking about redefining normal,
right, it is so normal to havethese reactions, and I'm going
to say it like it is a bodyreaction, and Jamie and I often
(33:57):
talk we were talking about justbefore getting on this call
about how important it is torecognize, in this day and age,
we are humans living here in ahuman body.
Like this is how our bodyresponds and if you try, to
avoid your human body and yourhuman experience, you will not
actually you will not actuallyexperience being human and you
will not actually create yourdreams, because it's through
(34:18):
your body, through this 3dreality, that we create our
dreams.
Otherwise, there's just africking vision out left into
the world.
Speaker 2 (34:24):
Right, this is what we're here to do.
Speaker 1 (34:26):
Yeah, this is what we're here to do to the physical
.
Speaker 3 (34:29):
Right.
Speaker 1 (34:30):
And to experience the highs and the lows, to
experience the sadness, toexperience the happiness.
Without the darkness, there isno light, right.
And so when we're in thesemoments, right, when we're in
these moments, right, when we'rein these moments, to me it was
really interesting when I wentthrough this bipolar you know
work that I was going through.
One of the first healers Iactually spoke to said Carrie,
just recognize that all humansare bipolar.
(34:52):
And I was like what she's like?
All humans are bipolar.
And I was like she goes.
So, instead of thinking thatyou're bad or that you're going
to fix this, learn how to bewith this, because you live in
two polars, it will always be intwo polars, so you need to
learn how to be in your body inthese two polars.
And when I heard that, I waslike thank you for that gift,
because I couldn't run from itanymore, I couldn't try and fix
(35:14):
it, I couldn't try and make itbetter, but what I could do is
learn how to live in this bodywhen I can experience joy and
disappointment all in the same,freaking breath sometimes yeah
Right, all in the same day.
Or I can be like, wow, I'mreally disappointed in this
moment, but I can still turn upfor work and be like, wow, I can
still be here and be presentand hold.
(35:35):
Wow, I'm really pissed offabout this thing that happened
over here.
Speaker 2 (35:37):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (35:38):
Because it's all happening in our body and when
you can actually learn to holdthat like.
None of that is right or wrong,none of it is bad or good, it
just is.
That is when we can holdourselves.
And when we can hold ourselveswe can release attachment to
anybody else, making us better.
And it doesn't mean that itdoesn't feel really good when
someone else validates you.
It doesn't mean that, like you,don't want to be loved and seen
(36:02):
and cherished, and it doesn'tmean that that isn't an amazing
part of humanity and ourconnection.
And we get to come back intoourselves and say and I am as I
am.
Speaker 2 (36:13):
I'm completely okay if this doesn't happen the way
that I want it to.
I mean, like the capacity rightTo exist and to be stable in
either extreme is is liberating.
You know, like it's, it's it's.
It's a game changer in a lot ofways, because think about how
(36:34):
many people bend over backwards.
And people please and try to bewhat they think someone else
wants in order to avoid reallyhaving to address maybe this
person isn't aligned with me.
You know, like I think you andI have had a lot of practice in
that, so it becomes really easyfor us to be like I'm not, I'm
(36:56):
not gonna step out of center toaccommodate this thing.
Um, can be jarring for peoplearound you.
You know to be like wait, butyou don't like me, you don't
care, you don't.
It's like it's not.
It's not that at all.
It's just that if I have tobecome something I'm not in
order for this dynamic to work,it's probably not for me and you
(37:18):
can't make something for you.
That's not for you.
It doesn't matter what you do,it doesn't matter who you become
, momentarily or for any lengthof time.
If it is not aligned it,there's no contorting yourself
enough to make it align, becausenow you're no longer in
alignment with yourself.
To be aligned, that feels shitit is totally.
Speaker 1 (37:39):
I mean, that's ultimately the whole book right
ends with me.
It was like I contorted myselfto be somebody for my ex-husband
, for my mom, for so many otherways that I was miserable, Right
.
And then it's that's thedisconnect, right, that's the
anxiety that I was living inbecause, like there was no way
that I could ever be happy,being contorted and hiding and
(38:00):
trying to be somebody that Inever, that I wasn't.
And and I will also say it waslike funny, because they were
talking about people pleasingand I will also say that that
doesn't make it easy not to doit.
Now I still catch myself in it.
We still have moments and thankgoodness I have people around
me that support me and go, hey,hey, are you doing that thing?
Now?
Like, oh, my God, I totally am.
How do I?
(38:20):
Again?
It's like this is the journey,right?
How do we respond?
It's like we're not perfect,we're not perfect specimens of
humans.
But it's like how can I not dothat this time?
How can I change?
How can I respond differentlynow that I'm aware, yeah, I am
doing that.
Do I still want to be here?
Is this okay?
Speaker 2 (38:43):
How can I shift my own response to my own reaction
to being here so that I don't dothat now, when you're your full
self too, you find people thatactually love you for your full
self, right, like I mean?
I think so.
Like we've talked about this, Iam a lot of chaos.
I respond to life.
I do not like I exist in umKairos, moments, in experiences,
(39:06):
and not in linear time likeKronos.
I don't, I don't do well inthat that system that is
disturbing for a lot of peopleand I think I spent a lot of
time trying to accommodate theexpectation of linear time and
I've kind of gotten to the pointwhere it's like I, I, this is
it, this is me, and I have a lotof people in my life who are
(39:30):
like your presence in my life isworth the missed meetings and
the like, changing schedule andthe bit of chaos that comes with
trying to do something with you.
Speaker 1 (39:41):
For example, this podcast was a mental launch two
weeks ago and when we set thedate, I was like Jamie, you're
going to be away, Are you sure?
And then I went on a trip.
She went away for three weeksand I was like, are you sure?
And as we're like messagingwhile she's away, she's like
she's totally gone.
Speaker 2 (39:58):
And I'm like I just still doing this.
Yeah, no, probably not, yeah.
And I do like I disappear intowhatever the present moment is
you know, and that's beautifulfor the present moment, and it's
disruptive to the things thatare not in the present moment
and I've had to be totally okaywith that in order to call in
(40:22):
people that that love me andsurround me, that are also okay
with that, you know, and andit's scary.
It's scary because I also hadto be willing to recognize that
there might be fewer people,that I might be alone sometimes,
in order to experience thisfullness.
But I also have been so blessedwith people like you and like
(40:43):
Kyle and my sisters, and who arejust like that's Jamie being
Jamie, like she's gonna do whatshe's gonna do, and I get to
experience the freedom of thatand I also get to give
permission to others.
So, like the things that you do,you know, it's like I'm going
to love you through every bit ofit.
(41:04):
It can get really fucking messy, it can get really neat and
tidy, but both extremes I'm hereand I love you, you know.
And it's like when we get to beour fullest selves and still
feel loved in that.
That that's that's it.
That's what it's about.
Speaker 1 (41:24):
Yeah, it's magic, and I'd say that the more that we
do this and the more that wewalk this path, there are less
people.
But the people that I have andthe people that you have are so
fulfilling that I'd pick lesspeople any day of the week yeah,
any day of the week thencontorting myself to meet other
people's needs.
Speaker 2 (41:39):
Well, that feels like healthy attachment week than
contorting myself to meet otherpeople's needs.
Well, that feels like healthyattachment, right, like it's
like this um, devotion to selfand alignment and allowing
whatever that brings in and alsowhat that clears out, um, and
not being attached to keeping orpushing anything, it's just the
state of blow and trusting whatthat looks like.
(42:01):
And part of this conversationstems from, you know, some um, I
have a connection that um, youknow really had expectations of
things, of time spent and thingslooking a certain way.
Um, and I, you know, because Ioperate so different, I did a
lot of communicating ahead oftime to like negate any
expectation, like I'm I'm a freeflow kind of gal.
(42:22):
I cannot guarantee I'm going tobe anywhere at any given time,
but if our, if our paths cross,awesome.
You know, like I'm up for that.
If that's where the, where theenergy goes, that is not where
the energy went on thisparticular trip and we had a
conversation.
You know, like I expected thatit would look different and I
(42:45):
recognized my kind of detachmentreally is like I, I apologize
for any miscommunication, butalso I did my best to
communicate.
You know the way it would beand I'm okay If you're
uncomfortable with the way thatI operate and that this dynamic
doesn't work for you.
You know, like I'm, I'm reallyokay If the way I operate is not
(43:09):
in service to your highest good, and that's okay with me.
And I think I can feel whenother people are like, oh, but I
really really appreciate thisrelationship or I want this
relationship, and so what do Ineed to do to make it keep
working Right?
Like um, and that really isdicey territory of stepping out
(43:32):
of center in order toaccommodate the expectations of
other people.
Speaker 1 (43:37):
Because at the end of the day you'll end up resentful
and pissed off and therelationship won't work.
Speaker 2 (43:40):
And fucking lonely because if you know you're not
being your full self, like whenyou know someone loves you,
because you're not your fullself, you can't lie to yourself,
you can't like, you know thetruth of it and so it leads to
loneliness.
Even if there's people aroundyou, if you know they don't love
you for all of you, it's stilllonely, it's still people.
Speaker 1 (44:01):
Because, even even if I think I'll say this and then
we probably need to wrap it upbut I was thinking, as you said,
that, like even when I was withScott a couple of years ago, I
can remember, because he's atherapist and of course I do all
this other amazing work withpeople that is not therapy,
quote, unquote therapy but I'mconstantly, always helping
people to shift and change theirlives and it was always an
(44:26):
interesting experience intalking to him where he was like
it was almost like this Um, Iwasn't enough in the way I was
doing things, because I wasn'tdoing it in a therapy way or
something like that.
Right, right.
Speaker 3 (44:34):
And so I'd be like, oh, can I right, right, and I'd
be like, so can I share this?
Speaker 1 (44:38):
And he'd be like, yeah, I don't really know.
Or hey, I want to show you thispart.
Yeah, I don't really want tosee that part.
Or hey, I'd like to dance foryou.
No, that's not really going tobe okay for me right now.
And I'm like, and there was allthese places that I wanted to
show him pieces of myself wherehe didn't really want.
This is okay, but in the end Icould never, and I and I wanted
to.
You heard it right.
I wanted it to be everything,because this man had so many
(45:09):
great things and it's true, hehad a lot of great things that
I'd never experienced before.
Right, but it still meant thatI had to contort myself.
So is it a surprise that itended the way it did Not at all.
Like, I'm not really surprised.
I knew it would end.
I didn't actually think thiswas going to be something that
was like forever, I think insome fantasy.
Within the first few weeks Idid.
Thank you, trauma, bondedexperience.
We live and learn people.
Speaker 2 (45:31):
Our capacity to create something that doesn't
exist.
Speaker 1 (45:35):
But like, it's really truly amazing.
Like and it shows up, like, andI remember at the time time
thinking like, why don't youwant to see that part of me?
Why would you judge that partof me?
And why do I feel like I haveto say this in a gentle, careful
way so that I don't, like rubsomething the wrong way, to like
not have this land okay for you, and part of that was my own
(45:55):
stuff too.
Speaker 2 (45:56):
Like that wasn't fully him.
Speaker 1 (45:57):
Part of it was my own stuff, like wanting to be
revealed but scared to reveal oryou're gonna judge or you're
gonna shame, and, like you know,I probably projected some of
that onto him as well.
Um, but like nowhere should wehave to like hide something or
should we be in a relationship,or someone doesn't want to see a
part of you?
Speaker 2 (46:16):
yeah, especially when it's something that you're
deeply aligned with, like it'sone thing to be open to people
that love you, challengingthings that are out of alignment
or that are maybe toxic orconditioned behaviors or fears
that you're unaware of, to beable to meet that conversation
and be open to changing if it'sin alignment with you.
(46:37):
But so many people step out ofcenter to accommodate versus.
I've done a lot of deep work tounderstand that this is my
alignment, this is how I move inthe world and I'm okay if
people move away because thatdoesn't work for them.
You know, like that's okay.
Speaker 1 (46:55):
And also I think it's okay too that you can show a
part and you don't have to agree, right, right, like, there's
relationships that I'm in that Imight show this part and even
in, like this situation, therapyto not.
You might not agree with me,but it's okay that I show it to
you.
Yeah, and I feel safe showingit to you.
Yeah, right, and we can totallydisagree, that's okay.
Speaker 2 (47:14):
Yeah, I mean we disagree on a lot of things, and
I think that's the beauty of it, though.
Right like like, if we, if wejust uh-huh, uh-huh, uh-huh
about everything would be soboring, it would be an echo
chamber, and that's thatcapacity to hold, though, is
like right.
Um, just because I disagreewith you, because what happens
(47:36):
is the right or wrong.
Right, it's like well, if she'sright, then I must be wrong.
Versus they're both true,they're both valid perspectives
in whatever scenario they existin, and they can coexist.
Speaker 1 (47:53):
And it's important that they coexist.
Yeah, and even to the pointwhere, like I mean, if I look at
right, you and Kyle, like youboth do things very fricking
differently, right, but you canstill be like both, you know, in
relationship anywhere.
Right, we do things differently, we show up differently, we
might hold ourselves differentlyand you can still love each
other.
That's not like you have to bethe same or like your part
that's being seen, has to belike yeah, I want to be like
that and I totally agree withthat.
Speaker 2 (48:13):
no, yeah, you just have to be allowed to be seen
well, and I think that that's abig thing is like starting to
look at relationships.
It's like what is this, is thisgoing to teach me?
How can I learn and grow andexperience new parts of myself
and the world around me?
Um, because I think that somany people look for
relationships to make them happy, to like, make them feel safe
and to feel, um, at ease, orreally to like, fulfill a whole,
(48:37):
you know, versus like.
Can I use this to justexperience more of myself and my
response to other people?
Can I learn how to love?
Can I learn how to accept?
Can I, you know all of thesethings and when we're not
attached to it, looking acertain way or feeling a certain
way, there's, there's just somuch freedom, so much freedom
(48:57):
for yourself, for the otherperson, like mirrors, I mean, at
the end of other person.
Speaker 1 (49:01):
We're all just mirrors.
I mean, at the end of the daywe're all just mirrors walking
each other home right.
Speaker 2 (49:04):
Yeah Well, so Kyle and I, literally all our arrows
are opposite.
So everywhere that I'm defined,he's more flexible, and
everywhere that he's defined, Iwant to be flexible, it's kind
of hilarious really when welearn that it's like no wonder
it's so hard for us tounderstand each other.
(49:25):
And then we, then we started torecognize.
So if we actually recognizethis about each other, we become
stable because we've got allfour legs of a table.
You know, it's like if we canactually respect what the other
person brings versus frustratedthat you don't do it the same
way that I do, it can be reallybeautiful, Like all
relationships, even some of themost painful, can be really
(49:48):
fucking beautiful.
Yes.
Speaker 1 (49:51):
Yeah, totally All right.
Do we have to say anything?
Speaker 2 (49:56):
else, before we wrap this one up, I don't think I
mean just surrender, like notice, where you're attached, where
you you have a very strong ideaof what it should look like.
Let it go, let it dissolve,just get curious about what
actually is there.
What is there if you're notforcing it to look a certain way
?
That's a really fun, you know,experiment game to play with
yourself.
(50:16):
What does it look like?
If I am not really controllingand forcing an outcome You'd be,
surprised.
What's there?
Speaker 1 (50:25):
I love that.
I think we should leave itthere.
Thanks everyone for listening.
Speaker 2 (50:33):
See you next week.
If you enjoyed this show, letus know.
We're all about authenticconnections, so come chat with
us on social media or email.
Speaker 1 (50:40):
Links are listed in the show notes, so come chat
with us on social media or emailLinks are listed in the show
notes and please make sure tosubscribe to the podcast on your
favorite platform and share themagic on your socials.
Welcome to Redefining Normal.
Join us as we questionconventional thinking and talk
about the courage it takes tocreate and live a deliciously
vibrant life.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
This podcast is for people who know there's a better
way to do life and love how weshow up in connection to others
our kids, our partners, ourbusiness and, beyond that, our
relationship with money,vitality and, more than anything
, ourselves.
Speaker 1 (00:26):
We're two shamelessly unapologetic moms choosing to
experience the fullness of life.
Speaker 2 (00:32):
And we're collapsing the conditioning that says you
can't live a life of pleasure,peace and abundance in the midst
of the mundane of life,responsibilities, work and kids.
Speaker 1 (00:43):
Thank you for listening in.
Let's do this.
On this episode of RedefiningNormal, jamie and I are diving
into the topic of releasingattachment to outcomes and
people.
I'm really excited about thischat.
It's Jamie, we've been having areally good as we do.
This is what happens with us.
We are always catching up andthen we have a conversation.
(01:05):
We're like, oh my God, we haveto talk about this.
So both of us were justchatting about relationships
that we are both in and howcertain people can have
expectations of an outcome, andso we wanted to start to kind of
dive into, to start with, like,what is the current
(01:27):
conditioning around having theseattachments, outcomes, whether
they're in our personalrelationships, like you know,
person to person, or even, likeI would even go as far as to say
money or items or all thesedifferent things Like we attach,
as humans, to stuff and people,and it isn't always a healthy
(01:47):
experience.
Speaker 2 (01:49):
Yeah, well, we attach to an idea of something.
I think of this, as you know,like we think we know the way it
should be, the way it shouldlook, what we want it to look
like, and that is almostcounterintuitive to the fact
that there is a flow of life,there is, um, there is a current
(02:12):
that's happening.
It's, it happened, you know,long before any of us were here.
It's going to happen long afterwe go, and then we think we
drop in and we're going tocontrol it and we're going to
make it look a certain way andwe're going to, you know, like,
manufacture um outcomes andspecific experiences and um
(02:35):
specific relationships.
And it has to do with our owncomfort level, probably, right,
like, think about, like I, Iwant to feel loved, so I need my
person to do A, b and C inorder for me to feel that.
And the problem with that is wedon't, we have no control over
other people's actions, right?
So it becomes ourresponsibility to kind of let go
(02:58):
of what happens outside of usand focus more on how we
navigate, how we respond, how weperceive those things that are
happening outside of us, becausethe attachment is that thing
outside of me is going to lookor be or happen the way I think
it should.
Speaker 1 (03:17):
Yeah, yeah, I think so much in life really becomes
like how we respond to thingsultimately is everything.
So when we look at this from acurrent perspective of what
we're doing in the world and Iwould say you and I have seen
this in our own marriages, inour own relationships, in our
own relationship with so manythings, and not just us, but
(03:38):
like with our clients and, uh,friends all around the world- I
mean like yeah.
So so, when we look at this froma current perspective, what
would you say is what'scurrently?
What's currently the norm,cause we're breaking, we're
redefining normal, so what'scurrently Right?
Speaker 2 (03:57):
Right.
I mean I would say that thenorm is yeah To to to just try
and control everything, try toforce life to look a certain way
in order to not feel the thingsthat it brings up when it
doesn't.
I mean, isn't that why we, whywe even create an idea?
Is, if it happens this way,it's going to confirm to me what
(04:21):
I want to feel.
It's going to confirm to mewhat I believe to be true versus
well, like we were talkingearlier, the ability to lean
into.
I have no idea what my responseis going to be to this
situation and I'd actuallyreally like to experience it so
that I understand more of myselfand my capacity to respond to
(04:41):
life.
It may get dicey, it may get alittle weird to respond to life.
Speaker 3 (04:47):
It may get dicey it may get a little weird.
Speaker 2 (04:49):
It may get a little stressful.
Speaker 3 (04:49):
My nervous system might be a little.
My nervous system might get alittle jacked up, right, but
let's do it.
Speaker 2 (04:59):
Let's like, let's lean into the unknown, to the
uncomfortable, in order to findmore parts of ourselves, in
order to become more aware ofwhat we actually are, and not
what we're trying to be or whatwe think we should be.
Speaker 1 (05:12):
It's like the thing that keeps coming to me to say,
to add to this is like one ofthe ways that I see this in the
spiritual world or the personaldevelopment world in such a huge
way, is women to men right?
Women who are in partnershipwith a man, who we are.
And I say this because,generally speaking, the women
are evolving and growing beforeand faster than a lot of the men
(05:35):
of this world.
Yeah, we've been engaged in thespace longer, not all, not
fully, true, but in many waysthis is the dynamic right.
And so a lot of women wanttheir men to come in and show up
a certain way and be a certainway and go do this path and dah,
dah, dah.
And then we try and control apath for them of how they're
supposed to awaken and howthey're supposed to be and how
(05:58):
they're supposed to show up forus and how they're supposed to
like, whatever Right.
And then we hold this I, Idon't even know like it is a
control, I guess at some levelor we, it's an expectation yeah,
yeah transaction that theydon't necessarily want to or
can't meet yeah right and I cansee it.
Speaker 2 (06:20):
I mean, I know I've been there, we've both been
there, we've asked our men to dothings in my marriage and in
yours, b and C, because I was,because that's what's normal,
because that you know, whateverthe story is, um, we, we don't
(06:49):
have control over these soulsthat are becoming themselves in
this world, like we're here toguidepost their journey and
offer wisdom and support.
Um, but we don't, we don't, wedon't have control over how, who
and what they are in the world.
Speaker 3 (07:07):
you know and the same thing.
Speaker 1 (07:10):
Yeah, right, the same thing if I were to take it into
the relationship with money,because so many of us want to
control money, like it has tocome this way it has to be this
way and I, I should be.
I I've got how many times have Iheard this?
I should be in a better placeright now in my life and I
should have this and because I'm50 years old, or I'm 40 years
old, like I should be furtherahead, right, right, and it
(07:30):
should look like this and ifmoney is this, then that means
whatever I'm worthy of you.
Speaker 2 (07:36):
Right yeah.
Speaker 1 (07:37):
Or if I have this much money I'm worthy of Right,
Right and I'm successful.
Speaker 2 (07:42):
I'm yeah.
All of these things.
Speaker 1 (07:45):
So we put so much attachment onto something
outside of ourselves to reallypretty much validate ourselves,
right, right, and so that's whatit looks like, and if you were
to look at this from a currentperspective of, I would actually
ask the question where are youlooking outside yourself to
validate yourself?
Yes, to make yourself feelbetter, to make yourself like
(08:10):
worthy, to make yourselfsuccessful.
Speaker 2 (08:12):
Yeah, yes, I mean like it's really a
self-protection mechanism, right, like it's the fear of feeling
all the things we don't want tofeel, whether it's money,
whether it's parenting, whetherit's relationship, whether it's
work, whatever it is.
It's like if this happens acertain way, then I can feel,
(08:33):
whatever my story is, because Idon't want to feel the opposite,
I don't want to feel unworthy,I don't want to feel scared, I
don't want to feel like afailure.
I don't, you know all thesethings.
But what if we did like?
What if we were like?
What, what?
What does failure feel like,and can I integrate that and
kind of learn what it has toshow me?
What does disappointment show?
Speaker 3 (08:54):
me.
Speaker 2 (08:55):
What does you know?
I mean, all of these thingsreveal more of us, you know?
I mean that's what we're hereto do.
We are here to experience thethings, all the things, the full
range, the good and the bad,and we learn with every, with
every single opportunity that'spresented us.
Speaker 1 (09:15):
Yeah, I think, I think it's important to say here
too that this is totally normal, Like, don't like, as you hear
us talking about this, don't belike.
Oh my God, I'm a bad personbecause this is happening,
because it's totally normal thisis the way we operate.
Speaker 3 (09:26):
Like this is why we're talking about it?
Speaker 1 (09:31):
because we're going through some of it, right
because we're seeing in ourrelationships right or we're
seeing actually for us today.
What we're talking about isseeing how it's different and
it's become a journey for us tonot get so attached and to be
able to recognize the placesthat we are, because this is
what will happen, is that thingswill come in, people will come
in that will show us like, hey,am I doing this differently?
(09:51):
Do I need to attach to you?
Do I right?
And how am I showing updifferently?
How am I responding differentlyand in the conversation we're
having, being like and am Iwilling to walk the path to feel
the things that I know I willfeel by not attaching to the
outcome, to this right Toknowing and like.
(10:11):
What we're talking about, too,is like to knowing that in
relationship, in lovingrelationship, that I mean.
I say this and I said it in my,the book that is coming.
I am working on the edits thisweekend, jamie, it's going to go
in.
It's going going in.
It ends with me.
Um, one of the things I talkabout is I, after marriage, I
was like I don't believe in aquote unquote the one.
Yeah, right, like I already hadmy quote, unquote the one.
(10:34):
It didn't work.
We're not together anymore, soconsequently, why would I assume
that from now on, that I'mgoing to have other one?
You're?
Speaker 2 (10:43):
going to find another one, right.
Speaker 1 (10:45):
Maybe, or I'm going to have other one.
You're going to find anotherone, right?
Speaker 2 (10:50):
Maybe, or I'm going to have a one until it's no
longer a one.
I think this is so healthy Like, because when you think about,
like, compulsory monogamy, right?
This idea that, like we'resupposed to pair up and do this
thing, that's beautiful.
If you're doing it.
With this awareness of like, weare going to change a million
times over and in each iterationof us.
(11:11):
If we're still a beautiful fitand a complimentary fit for each
other, awesome.
But also this awareness that,like, sometimes we change in
different directions and can wehonor those changes.
Like, sometimes we change indifferent directions and can we
honor those changes.
Like, can we love each other inexactly where we are in the
whole journey.
Speaker 1 (11:29):
You know, like I think it's really.
I think it's one of the mostbeautiful things in the world
actually, as I've watched moreand more people these last few
years this last yearspecifically actually a lot of
really beautiful loving coupleswho, like, when you look at them
, you're like, oh my God, likewhat a beautiful loving
relationship you have.
(11:49):
And they get to the place wherewe are no longer lying.
It's not that you're a badperson, not that we didn't have
an amazing relationship, but wehave different paths now, and to
watch people uncouple that wayis so, it's so honoring of
exactly what we were talkingabout here.
It's like when you releaseattachment to the fact that a
person is your everything.
Speaker 2 (12:07):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (12:08):
Right and that you are come together for a time and
a place for the healing thatyou have.
Like the truth is that you walkinto something like for me I
look at it and I go.
I walk into something knowinglike it may end and at some
point this may hurt.
But am I not going to bepresent and in love in the
moment and appreciate what Ihave in the moment for as many
(12:30):
moments and as many days, whichcould be months, years, the rest
of my life, I don't know.
Speaker 3 (12:36):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (12:37):
Until it's no longer a fuck.
Yes, Right.
Right.
Speaker 2 (12:41):
And how do we do that without I want to say cause I
did this, I fuck, I did it in mymarriage, but I contorting
ourselves to be somebody thatwe're not in order for it to
meet the relationship talk aboutuncoupling and and I feel like
(13:08):
Kyle and I are in a similar Imean like we've come to the
place where we prioritize ourtogetherness and we recognize
what that means is that I'mgoing to choose to validate and
honor whatever iteration of himis showing up at the table and
whatever dynamics that changes,but it doesn't change that I
love him and I'm here for him,and that gets to look a million
different ways.
(13:29):
Right, so it's an, it's anunattaching from a certain
picture or idea or outcome.
Right, Like this is kind ofwhat we started with is no
attachment to a specific outcomeand committing to being on the
journey and loving each otherthrough whatever outcome,
whatever experience, whateverchallenge comes to the table.
(13:52):
And that that means the unknown, right.
The scary thing about that islike it's unknown.
I have no idea what iterationmay show up, but I am committed
to journeying it and notcollapsing, not running away,
not, you know, going into my ownwounding, but staying present,
staying at the table and stayingself reflective and responsible
(14:14):
in whatever that looks like.
Speaker 1 (14:17):
And I think the thing that I love about that and I
know for me it's something thatI now bring into my relationship
is like looking with fresh eyes, like every every time you see
someone being like who are youtoday and I know with with my ex
and I with you, and I like itwasn't and I and I would see him
, but still to this day he holdsme in who I was years ago.
Yeah, right, he still holds meas a crazy I mean, this is what
(14:40):
his words, not mine but a crazydramatic.
Ultimately, he would call mecrazy psychos based people.
Right, like he sees me as atotally fucked up, mentally
unwell woman and he still holdsme there.
Speaker 2 (14:53):
Right.
You know what he holds himselfin old versions too because, in
order to see new versions ofother people, we also have to
recognize new versions ofourselves every day.
Speaker 1 (15:03):
Right.
And so when you hold somebodyin those places because I, you
know and I and I and I'm reallyfully on her like, yeah, I had
some mental health stuff goingon and yeah, it could be really
up and down and would have beenreally challenging for him, I am
not the same person anymore.
No, yeah.
(15:25):
Right.
So when we can look at ourintimate friendships or intimate
partnerships and say I see youtoday as you are and I accept
you today as you are, and Istill want to be here today with
you as you are and I don't wantto change you.
Speaker 3 (15:38):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (15:39):
Like that's where we come to an unattachment right.
I choose you today, yeah.
Speaker 3 (15:43):
Because I've got myself and whatever it brings up
.
Speaker 2 (15:46):
Right.
I mean like, ultimately, it'sthe capacity to hold ourselves
and to, to, to be with whateversomebody else's choices, actions
, whatever brings up in us.
Speaker 1 (15:59):
That's how we can show up for that choice of not
being attached yeah, okay, socan we talk a little bit more
about, um, holding ourselves?
Because I think, ultimately,for anyone who's listening like
this to me, this to me is thebiggest gift the last two years
has been.
Having left a marriage is thegreatest gift it has given me,
especially, like I just said, inmy mental health stuff, like it
(16:21):
really taught me, like I have.
I mean, yes, I have beautifulfriends like Jamie and some
other people that hold me, whichis true, but at the end of the
day, I'm still home alone bymyself.
Speaker 2 (16:35):
Yeah, yeah, I mean, we're not meant to do it alone,
and part of holding ourselves isseeking wise counsel, is
seeking support when we need itand not trying to run to the
thing that isn't working the waywe want it to.
Right, right.
Speaker 1 (16:44):
Right, and in the end , I'm still the one who has to
pick up my pieces and keepmoving Right, so I can come to
Jamie and I can go.
Jamie, this is all fallingapart and I don't know what to
do and I'm in a fucking mess.
And can you help me out?
Right, and she'll be there, ahundred percent.
But the truth is that the helpout after that is me taking
those steps, is me loving myself, is me holding myself, and it
has been the greatest gift,because for so long I couldn't
(17:06):
do it Right and because I cannow, it's like throw it at me.
Speaker 3 (17:12):
What are you going to give me?
Do this.
Speaker 1 (17:14):
Right, Like.
What are you going to give methat I can't like?
That I mean honestly, after thelast two years.
What are you going to give me,world, that I can't hold myself
through?
Right.
Speaker 2 (17:22):
You know how, how paradigm shifting it is that
when you really look at thatbecause I think that a lot of
people the mind will go to theworst case scenario, the most
negative experience.
And then when you remind thatpart of you like and look at you
now like you made it through,you navigated it, you are
healthy and whole and here.
So really you're you're like 10for 10, a hundred for a hundred
(17:47):
, like whatever challengingsituation you've experienced
you've made it through becauseyou're still here and yeah,
maybe there's some scars, maybethere's some, you know things
that need to be worked through,but you've made it like you're
still here and the mind forgetsthat.
The mind gets stuck in the fearof, like the bad thing happened
(18:08):
Interesting.
So like when we were in London,I traveled with a friend and she
missed her flight.
Weird, the weirdest.
Like it felt like a frickingdimensional timeline weird thing
because she was gettingnotifications that her flight
was canceled or not canceled,delayed, right.
So we were operating on like atwo hour delay canceled, delayed
(18:33):
, right.
So we were operating on like atwo-hour delay.
We get to the airport and thereis nobody in line for this
flight.
The flight desk, baggage isclosed, like, like there isn't a
flight that's happening in twohours and um, according to the
system, the flight was alreadylike, boarded and gone, but the
app was saying it was delayed.
So she missed the flight.
(18:54):
She didn't actually like.
Afterwards we found out theflight did leave delayed.
She could have gotten throughsecurity, could have whatever,
but the system was glitching orsomething.
I don't know.
Um, the next day, you know, weget our new ticket, we're back
at the airport and she's like,oh my God, I'm like she was
anxious and I'm going to miss myflight.
And oh my God, and I'm likewhat happens if you miss your
(19:16):
flight?
Cause what happened?
Like you missed your flightyesterday, what happened and
immediately went to worst casescenario, like I'm not going to
get home, I'm going to have tobuy another ticket, like all
these bad things.
And I'm like, interesting,cause, what else happened
yesterday?
And I'm like, interesting,cause, what else happened
yesterday?
Like we had a whole nother dayin London.
We went to visit the spot thatshe like one of the things on
(19:38):
her list that we didn't havetime to do, so we had a whole
nother opportunity to do all ofthese things.
She got to you know, check morethings off the list.
We had a beautiful dinner, hertickets getting reimbursed, like
all of these things.
So like there was a lot ofbeauty that we didn't see
because the mind automatically,automatically, went to like
worst case scenario.
So this unattachment from itlooking some some way opens us
(20:04):
to seeing all of the beautifulthings that come with that one
challenging bit that we getstuck on, if we're attached to
it looking a certain way.
Speaker 1 (20:17):
It makes me think generally speaking.
I love that story.
It makes me think generallyspeaking of like, constantly
looking for the silver linings.
You know, I know for me againwith with my 51 shock line, like
I receive things in shock allthe time.
Speaker 2 (20:29):
Yeah, and you have to be willing to look for the gift
Right?
Speaker 1 (20:56):
no-transcript.
Probably like shake otherpeople and did shake me for a
long time, I go huh, that'sinteresting yeah okay, what's
next?
and it takes me a minute or two.
Right, it takes me a minute orsometimes a couple hours to
process through it.
But when you can always see thesilver lining, like even when
we've talked about I thinkalready on the podcast when my
(21:17):
the guy, scott that I was datinggot into bed with my best
friend, like it took me threedays to process that and I
promise you all people, like itreally took me longer, but like
it took me three days to findthe silver lining truly, and
about a week later I was like,oh my God, what a gift.
Speaker 3 (21:35):
And I knew even in the moment, even in the moment
when my ex best friend wassaying to me Carrie, you know,
there's a gift in this.
I was like F you gotch, you didnot have to give me this
fucking gift, right, right.
Speaker 2 (21:43):
Well, it can be paradoxical.
It can be a fuck you, and ofcourse there's a gift.
Right Like, and of coursethere's a gift.
Speaker 1 (21:49):
Right.
And so, in that moment, thoughit's still only took me like it
truly was a gift in the factthat I it was my no, like this
is the last time, Cause it hadto get this ridiculous for it to
be for me to finally say F, no,like we are not doing this ever
again and I have not doneanything like that ever again.
Speaker 2 (22:09):
The gift doesn't always bubbly, feel good thing
Sometimes.
It's sometimes right, it isunderstanding boundaries.
Sometimes it is navigatingpainful heartbreak and
recognizing how strong you are.
Like this idea that the gift isalways something just pretty,
elated and beautiful isdistorted because, because the
(22:30):
gift is gross, the gift isevolution, the gift is new
perspective.
But you do, you have to beintentional about looking for
and finding that, because themind automatically sees the risk
, the pain, the negative,because that's its job is to
protect you from that, you know.
So the default will always beto identify the risk or the
(22:56):
negative, and you really have tochoose to find, to identify, to
acknowledge even what is goodabout this.
What is the benefit here?
Yeah, and you can't do that ifyou're attached to a specific
outcome.
If it doesn't look like this,it's bad, and if it looks like
this, it's good.
It's going to limit you so muchin all areas of life, all areas
(23:22):
of life.
Speaker 1 (23:23):
Yeah, so the faster that we can realize that we've
got.
So we were talking about thisfrom the beginning, right?
So, like, how do we holdourselves?
So in those moments, for meit's like, in those moments, you
can fully collapse and again,this comes from somebody who's
had mental health issues for along time yes, we can fully
collapse and we can let it takeover us and we can feel like a
victim to the situation or wecan say, okay, so this thing
(23:47):
happened for us to show ussomething.
What is this revealing to me?
How am I going to hold myself?
Now?
For me, holding myself is likerecognizing, first of all.
Generally speaking, in thosemoments, my first reaction will
be some sort of in my nervoussystem.
It will feel really jacked up,it will feel really anxious, I
will feel like my heart willstart racing.
My butterfly there'll bebutterflies in my stomach and I
(24:09):
probably, at some point, if itgets hard enough, my butterfly
there'll be butterflies in mystomach and I probably, at some
point, if it gets hard enough,we'll struggle to breathe and
like it feels really frickingintense.
Speaker 2 (24:16):
It is a psychosomatic response.
It's not make-believe.
Nope, it is there right.
Speaker 1 (24:21):
Yes, and it doesn't matter, like this can come from
something extreme, like what Ijust said, or it can come from
like some little thing that'seven with your kids that you're
like I don't really like thatyou're doing this, or I feel
really nervous that you're outwith this person, or, but
they're safe, but they're justnot.
It's not a response that youcan control or you you know so.
Like you get to sit in, can Ihold myself in someone else's
(24:41):
choices or something else that'shappening outside of myself and
recognize, hey, my nervoussystem is feeling really out of
whack right now.
Right, how do I need to holdmyself?
What do I need right now, inthis moment, to balance myself,
to feel better, to hear myself?
Um, then my next place would befrom there, actually, probably
(25:05):
right now.
Lately, it's like seeing mylittle girl Like, hey, where are
you?
What do you need right now?
Yeah, because she's the onesomewhere inside of me that's
having a freak out and shedoesn't feel safe.
And I, if I bring her in andI'm like okay, what do we need,
the two of us, right now, tofeel okay within ourselves?
Speaker 3 (25:22):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (25:23):
Well, this is what we're talking about Not
abandoning yourself, right?
Because oftentimes that littlegirl gets abandoned by you in
order to accommodate somebodyelse's expectation.
So, yeah, you have to notabandon yourself in order to not
be abandoned.
Speaker 1 (25:41):
Right, but ultimately , like in the event, like we, we
fear as humans, abandon it.
So much right that we thencreate it to go learn this.
I mean, like this has been mydating scenario.
Like let me just replay outabandonment issues over and over
and learn this.
Yeah, I mean, like this hasbeen my dating scenario.
Like let me just replay outabandonment issues over and over
and over again.
Right, just that I could learnto hold myself and be like right
.
Apparently, I still need tolearn this one, right, right,
well, because this is it right?
Speaker 2 (26:01):
Like if, if we want a certain outcome and we aren't
willing to see anything outsideof that outcome, we will, like
you said, contort ourselves andtwist ourselves and become
something to fit into that thing, versus, in order to contort
ourselves, you've got to abandonparts of you that are like no,
(26:23):
thank you, I do not want to dothat thing, but we will abandon
that part of us to accommodatesomebody else's expectation in
order to see the outcome we want.
So, yeah, I come back.
Speaker 1 (26:37):
I think a distinction here too, that would be really
helpful is and I know in the, inthe journey I'm on right now,
right Like it can look like insome ways, my choices could be
like am I abandoning myself?
And I do question it Like am Iabandoning my needs and my wants
and my desires?
Speaker 3 (26:50):
Right.
Speaker 1 (26:51):
Or am I willing to put myself in a place that could
also feel a little bit stickyto also have what I want Right?
Am I willing to lean into anedge that's like, oh, that's a
little bit uncomfortable.
Speaker 2 (27:03):
Right.
Speaker 1 (27:04):
And I want this Right , right.
Is this contorting myself or isthis feeling edgy and edgy can
also feel a little bit likeanxiety and contorting, like
what is my true desire andreally feel the difference in
these nuances when you askyourself like, am I willing?
And then, when you start tolearn to hold yourself, you're
(27:26):
willing to go to these edgesfurther.
Speaker 2 (27:28):
Yeah, because there's a practice in that, too right,
like learning how to stabilizeyour nervous system, and doing
that when it's not triggered isimportant.
Understanding I often thinkabout this is like, um, taking a
walk through the scary forestduring the day, when you can see
the path, you can see the trees, you can see everything, so
(27:49):
that when it's dark you're notlike I have no idea where I am
and what's going on, and you'vegot some resources to navigate
the scary part.
So, like practicing what you'retalking about, like what are
your resources for coming backinto your body, stabilizing your
nervous system, breathing,meditating, movement, like what
(28:12):
works for you?
Learn how to do that outside ofa trigger so that you have
access to it and it becomes likemuscle memory, even to like
drop back into that place.
Speaker 1 (28:23):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, a hundred percent.
And I think, the more that youknow, part of what I, part of
what I teach, is with my quantumbreath and quantum flow.
That is part of the work that Ido.
Right, like that I help myselfand my clients to actually find
ways through movement, throughbreath, to actually stabilize
their nervous system.
Because for me, this has beenthe quintessential way that I
can actually hold myself,because without it my nervous
(28:45):
system was what was actually sodysregulated that was creating
my mental health issues.
And it's been interestingbecause, as things as I've been
navigating stuff and my nervoussystem is going into this real,
that dysregulated.
Lately I'm like cause I've comemore into peace than I've ever
been.
But then I'll swing out and I'mlike, oh, thank God I don't
(29:06):
live like this anymore.
Cause, like I think about it,jamie, and I'm like man, this
was 24, seven, now I canrecognize it.
And sometimes it can take me aday or two to like bring it back
into, like, ah, okay, here'speace again, right.
Cause sometimes things are likewoo, and it's not even in that
it's still not the level ofnecessarily what it used to be,
but like even with all the toolsin the world, especially as I'm
letting go of of addictivepatterns, to again turn outside
(29:28):
of myself, right.
So I'll even say it here Likeone of the things that was my my
tool was to to turn to cannabis, right, and as I've Jamie, it's
like two months, nice job, yeah.
So as I've let go of that,because for a while everybody
like that was my way, like whenI was near panic attack, like
that was the one thing, itdidn't matter if I had all the
breath work, all the brain work,all the everything, when I was
(29:52):
at like I've got to get to mydue life and somehow that was
like thank God I had it.
And even working with myneurofeedback therapist, she's
like here, your brain is notable to regulate itself right
now.
So like it makes sense that youturn to this because it's
actually helping you dosomething you physically aren't
able to do right now.
Right.
So now that I know that I don'tactually physically need that
right now, I've been able to dothings differently and I'm
(30:14):
working to not use that as atool for my own regulation,
which means that sometimes myregulation takes a little bit
longer to hit to get to right,but I can also hold myself in it
way better than I ever could,and hence why I'm like in a
place where, okay, it's timethat I can learn to do this
without that yeah and um, and inthat, like, like you said, it
(30:39):
has to be done in a way that'soutside of the darkness.
If I only started to use breathwork tools and my quantum flow
tools and my quantum breathtools and all the things that I
have that helped me to regulatemy nervous system, now there's
no, there's, there's no way Iwould be doing right, but it's
because I've built this practiceover time that I know, you know
(31:00):
, what I can hold myself.
I can trust myself that whenI'm in this place, that somehow,
somewhere along the path, therewill be some way that I can
bring my nervous system backinto center.
Speaker 2 (31:11):
Yeah, and the goal, the goal is not to never feel
dysregulated.
We live in physical bodies withnervous systems.
It is built to react toexternal stimulus.
This is just a part of beinghuman beings.
So, like, this idea that you'regoing to get to a place where
(31:33):
that never happens is is absurd.
And I would say if, if peopleare operating that way, then
they are numbing or avoidingsomething.
Your nervous system is built todo that.
So the resource or the goal forus is to learn how to navigate
it, how to be healthy in itsresponse, to step back and
(31:57):
assess what do we need to do?
Like, is there some danger here?
Is there something I need to do?
Like, is there some danger here?
Is there something I need to do?
And to separate and kind ofuntangle the reaction from what
it is we actually really need todo in a moment, you know, and
and how to come back toconscious center, because, like
you were saying, nervous systemfirst, then kind of zoom in into
(32:21):
, like inner child, and that Ithink that it can go two ways
right, like you can zoom intothe parts of you or you can zoom
way out and see big picture,like, depending on the situation
, depending on the trigger,depending on your natural
capacity.
You know it's like so manydifferent ways, but it's it is.
(32:41):
It's almost like untanglingyour response from the current
trigger, like what my bodythinks something's happening.
Is that actually what'shappening and do I need to zoom
out or do I need to zoom in toget clearer on on the
perspective I need to take inorder to, yeah, come back to
(33:03):
center, like we are our ownmassive, complex ecosystems,
galaxies, you know, like thiswhole eternity in our own bodies
, you know.
And so when we remember thatand we start operating like that
(33:24):
in those triggers, wedefinitely make different
choices.
We respond differently to thething that did or didn't happen
the way we thought it would.
You know, right Feelscompletely different.
Speaker 1 (33:37):
Yeah, and I think at the end of the day, I mean like
we bring this back to thebeginning right At the end of
the day when we learn this andwe recognize that, as you just
said, like this is totallynormal, all of this stuff is
normal and and I think that'swhy it's so important to say
this, because even as we'retalking about redefining normal,
right, it is so normal to havethese reactions, and I'm going
to say it like it is a bodyreaction, and Jamie and I often
(33:57):
talk we were talking about justbefore getting on this call
about how important it is torecognize, in this day and age,
we are humans living here in ahuman body.
Like this is how our bodyresponds and if you try, to
avoid your human body and yourhuman experience, you will not
actually you will not actuallyexperience being human and you
will not actually create yourdreams, because it's through
(34:18):
your body, through this 3dreality, that we create our
dreams.
Otherwise, there's just africking vision out left into
the world.
Speaker 2 (34:24):
Right, this is what we're here to do.
Speaker 1 (34:26):
Yeah, this is what we're here to do to the physical
.
Speaker 3 (34:29):
Right.
Speaker 1 (34:30):
And to experience the highs and the lows, to
experience the sadness, toexperience the happiness.
Without the darkness, there isno light, right.
And so when we're in thesemoments, right, when we're in
these moments, right, when we'rein these moments, to me it was
really interesting when I wentthrough this bipolar you know
work that I was going through.
One of the first healers Iactually spoke to said Carrie,
just recognize that all humansare bipolar.
(34:52):
And I was like what she's like?
All humans are bipolar.
And I was like she goes.
So, instead of thinking thatyou're bad or that you're going
to fix this, learn how to bewith this, because you live in
two polars, it will always be intwo polars, so you need to
learn how to be in your body inthese two polars.
And when I heard that, I waslike thank you for that gift,
because I couldn't run from itanymore, I couldn't try and fix
(35:14):
it, I couldn't try and make itbetter, but what I could do is
learn how to live in this bodywhen I can experience joy and
disappointment all in the same,freaking breath sometimes yeah
Right, all in the same day.
Or I can be like, wow, I'mreally disappointed in this
moment, but I can still turn upfor work and be like, wow, I can
still be here and be presentand hold.
(35:35):
Wow, I'm really pissed offabout this thing that happened
over here.
Speaker 2 (35:37):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (35:38):
Because it's all happening in our body and when
you can actually learn to holdthat like.
None of that is right or wrong,none of it is bad or good, it
just is.
That is when we can holdourselves.
And when we can hold ourselveswe can release attachment to
anybody else, making us better.
And it doesn't mean that itdoesn't feel really good when
someone else validates you.
It doesn't mean that, like you,don't want to be loved and seen
(36:02):
and cherished, and it doesn'tmean that that isn't an amazing
part of humanity and ourconnection.
And we get to come back intoourselves and say and I am as I
am.
Speaker 2 (36:13):
I'm completely okay if this doesn't happen the way
that I want it to.
I mean, like the capacity rightTo exist and to be stable in
either extreme is is liberating.
You know, like it's, it's it's.
It's a game changer in a lot ofways, because think about how
(36:34):
many people bend over backwards.
And people please and try to bewhat they think someone else
wants in order to avoid reallyhaving to address maybe this
person isn't aligned with me.
You know, like I think you andI have had a lot of practice in
that, so it becomes really easyfor us to be like I'm not, I'm
(36:56):
not gonna step out of center toaccommodate this thing.
Um, can be jarring for peoplearound you.
You know to be like wait, butyou don't like me, you don't
care, you don't.
It's like it's not.
It's not that at all.
It's just that if I have tobecome something I'm not in
order for this dynamic to work,it's probably not for me and you
(37:18):
can't make something for you.
That's not for you.
It doesn't matter what you do,it doesn't matter who you become
, momentarily or for any lengthof time.
If it is not aligned it,there's no contorting yourself
enough to make it align, becausenow you're no longer in
alignment with yourself.
To be aligned, that feels shitit is totally.
Speaker 1 (37:39):
I mean, that's ultimately the whole book right
ends with me.
It was like I contorted myselfto be somebody for my ex-husband
, for my mom, for so many otherways that I was miserable, Right
.
And then it's that's thedisconnect, right, that's the
anxiety that I was living inbecause, like there was no way
that I could ever be happy,being contorted and hiding and
(38:00):
trying to be somebody that Inever, that I wasn't.
And and I will also say it waslike funny, because they were
talking about people pleasingand I will also say that that
doesn't make it easy not to doit.
Now I still catch myself in it.
We still have moments and thankgoodness I have people around
me that support me and go, hey,hey, are you doing that thing?
Now?
Like, oh, my God, I totally am.
How do I?
(38:20):
Again?
It's like this is the journey,right?
How do we respond?
It's like we're not perfect,we're not perfect specimens of
humans.
But it's like how can I not dothat this time?
How can I change?
How can I respond differentlynow that I'm aware, yeah, I am
doing that.
Do I still want to be here?
Is this okay?
Speaker 2 (38:43):
How can I shift my own response to my own reaction
to being here so that I don't dothat now, when you're your full
self too, you find people thatactually love you for your full
self, right, like I mean?
I think so.
Like we've talked about this, Iam a lot of chaos.
I respond to life.
I do not like I exist in umKairos, moments, in experiences,
(39:06):
and not in linear time likeKronos.
I don't, I don't do well inthat that system that is
disturbing for a lot of peopleand I think I spent a lot of
time trying to accommodate theexpectation of linear time and
I've kind of gotten to the pointwhere it's like I, I, this is
it, this is me, and I have a lotof people in my life who are
(39:30):
like your presence in my life isworth the missed meetings and
the like, changing schedule andthe bit of chaos that comes with
trying to do something with you.
Speaker 1 (39:41):
For example, this podcast was a mental launch two
weeks ago and when we set thedate, I was like Jamie, you're
going to be away, Are you sure?
And then I went on a trip.
She went away for three weeksand I was like, are you sure?
And as we're like messagingwhile she's away, she's like
she's totally gone.
Speaker 2 (39:58):
And I'm like I just still doing this.
Yeah, no, probably not, yeah.
And I do like I disappear intowhatever the present moment is
you know, and that's beautifulfor the present moment, and it's
disruptive to the things thatare not in the present moment
and I've had to be totally okaywith that in order to call in
(40:22):
people that that love me andsurround me, that are also okay
with that, you know, and andit's scary.
It's scary because I also hadto be willing to recognize that
there might be fewer people,that I might be alone sometimes,
in order to experience thisfullness.
But I also have been so blessedwith people like you and like
(40:43):
Kyle and my sisters, and who arejust like that's Jamie being
Jamie, like she's gonna do whatshe's gonna do, and I get to
experience the freedom of thatand I also get to give
permission to others.
So, like the things that you do,you know, it's like I'm going
to love you through every bit ofit.
(41:04):
It can get really fucking messy, it can get really neat and
tidy, but both extremes I'm hereand I love you, you know.
And it's like when we get to beour fullest selves and still
feel loved in that.
That that's that's it.
That's what it's about.
Speaker 1 (41:24):
Yeah, it's magic, and I'd say that the more that we
do this and the more that wewalk this path, there are less
people.
But the people that I have andthe people that you have are so
fulfilling that I'd pick lesspeople any day of the week yeah,
any day of the week thencontorting myself to meet other
people's needs.
Speaker 2 (41:39):
Well, that feels like healthy attachment week than
contorting myself to meet otherpeople's needs.
Well, that feels like healthyattachment, right, like it's
like this um, devotion to selfand alignment and allowing
whatever that brings in and alsowhat that clears out, um, and
not being attached to keeping orpushing anything, it's just the
state of blow and trusting whatthat looks like.
(42:01):
And part of this conversationstems from, you know, some um, I
have a connection that um, youknow really had expectations of
things, of time spent and thingslooking a certain way.
Um, and I, you know, because Ioperate so different, I did a
lot of communicating ahead oftime to like negate any
expectation, like I'm I'm a freeflow kind of gal.
(42:22):
I cannot guarantee I'm going tobe anywhere at any given time,
but if our, if our paths cross,awesome.
You know, like I'm up for that.
If that's where the, where theenergy goes, that is not where
the energy went on thisparticular trip and we had a
conversation.
You know, like I expected thatit would look different and I
(42:45):
recognized my kind of detachmentreally is like I, I apologize
for any miscommunication, butalso I did my best to
communicate.
You know the way it would beand I'm okay If you're
uncomfortable with the way thatI operate and that this dynamic
doesn't work for you.
You know, like I'm, I'm reallyokay If the way I operate is not
(43:09):
in service to your highest good, and that's okay with me.
And I think I can feel whenother people are like, oh, but I
really really appreciate thisrelationship or I want this
relationship, and so what do Ineed to do to make it keep
working Right?
Like um, and that really isdicey territory of stepping out
(43:32):
of center in order toaccommodate the expectations of
other people.
Speaker 1 (43:37):
Because at the end of the day you'll end up resentful
and pissed off and therelationship won't work.
Speaker 2 (43:40):
And fucking lonely because if you know you're not
being your full self, like whenyou know someone loves you,
because you're not your fullself, you can't lie to yourself,
you can't like, you know thetruth of it and so it leads to
loneliness.
Even if there's people aroundyou, if you know they don't love
you for all of you, it's stilllonely, it's still people.
Speaker 1 (44:01):
Because, even even if I think I'll say this and then
we probably need to wrap it upbut I was thinking, as you said,
that, like even when I was withScott a couple of years ago, I
can remember, because he's atherapist and of course I do all
this other amazing work withpeople that is not therapy,
quote, unquote therapy but I'mconstantly, always helping
people to shift and change theirlives and it was always an
(44:26):
interesting experience intalking to him where he was like
it was almost like this Um, Iwasn't enough in the way I was
doing things, because I wasn'tdoing it in a therapy way or
something like that.
Right, right.
Speaker 3 (44:34):
And so I'd be like, oh, can I right, right, and I'd
be like, so can I share this?
Speaker 1 (44:38):
And he'd be like, yeah, I don't really know.
Or hey, I want to show you thispart.
Yeah, I don't really want tosee that part.
Or hey, I'd like to dance foryou.
No, that's not really going tobe okay for me right now.
And I'm like, and there was allthese places that I wanted to
show him pieces of myself wherehe didn't really want.
This is okay, but in the end Icould never, and I and I wanted
to.
You heard it right.
I wanted it to be everything,because this man had so many
(45:09):
great things and it's true, hehad a lot of great things that
I'd never experienced before.
Right, but it still meant thatI had to contort myself.
So is it a surprise that itended the way it did Not at all.
Like, I'm not really surprised.
I knew it would end.
I didn't actually think thiswas going to be something that
was like forever, I think insome fantasy.
Within the first few weeks Idid.
Thank you, trauma, bondedexperience.
We live and learn people.
Speaker 2 (45:31):
Our capacity to create something that doesn't
exist.
Speaker 1 (45:35):
But like, it's really truly amazing.
Like and it shows up, like, andI remember at the time time
thinking like, why don't youwant to see that part of me?
Why would you judge that partof me?
And why do I feel like I haveto say this in a gentle, careful
way so that I don't, like rubsomething the wrong way, to like
not have this land okay for you, and part of that was my own
(45:55):
stuff too.
Speaker 2 (45:56):
Like that wasn't fully him.
Speaker 1 (45:57):
Part of it was my own stuff, like wanting to be
revealed but scared to reveal oryou're gonna judge or you're
gonna shame, and, like you know,I probably projected some of
that onto him as well.
Um, but like nowhere should wehave to like hide something or
should we be in a relationship,or someone doesn't want to see a
part of you?
Speaker 2 (46:16):
yeah, especially when it's something that you're
deeply aligned with, like it'sone thing to be open to people
that love you, challengingthings that are out of alignment
or that are maybe toxic orconditioned behaviors or fears
that you're unaware of, to beable to meet that conversation
and be open to changing if it'sin alignment with you.
(46:37):
But so many people step out ofcenter to accommodate versus.
I've done a lot of deep work tounderstand that this is my
alignment, this is how I move inthe world and I'm okay if
people move away because thatdoesn't work for them.
You know, like that's okay.
Speaker 1 (46:55):
And also I think it's okay too that you can show a
part and you don't have to agree, right, right, like, there's
relationships that I'm in that Imight show this part and even
in, like this situation, therapyto not.
You might not agree with me,but it's okay that I show it to
you.
Yeah, and I feel safe showingit to you.
Yeah, right, and we can totallydisagree, that's okay.
Speaker 2 (47:14):
Yeah, I mean we disagree on a lot of things, and
I think that's the beauty of it, though.
Right like like, if we, if wejust uh-huh, uh-huh, uh-huh
about everything would be soboring, it would be an echo
chamber, and that's thatcapacity to hold, though, is
like right.
Um, just because I disagreewith you, because what happens
(47:36):
is the right or wrong.
Right, it's like well, if she'sright, then I must be wrong.
Versus they're both true,they're both valid perspectives
in whatever scenario they existin, and they can coexist.
Speaker 1 (47:53):
And it's important that they coexist.
Yeah, and even to the pointwhere, like I mean, if I look at
right, you and Kyle, like youboth do things very fricking
differently, right, but you canstill be like both, you know, in
relationship anywhere.
Right, we do things differently, we show up differently, we
might hold ourselves differentlyand you can still love each
other.
That's not like you have to bethe same or like your part
that's being seen, has to belike yeah, I want to be like
that and I totally agree withthat.
Speaker 2 (48:13):
no, yeah, you just have to be allowed to be seen
well, and I think that that's abig thing is like starting to
look at relationships.
It's like what is this, is thisgoing to teach me?
How can I learn and grow andexperience new parts of myself
and the world around me?
Um, because I think that somany people look for
relationships to make them happy, to like, make them feel safe
and to feel, um, at ease, orreally to like, fulfill a whole,
(48:37):
you know, versus like.
Can I use this to justexperience more of myself and my
response to other people?
Can I learn how to love?
Can I learn how to accept?
Can I, you know all of thesethings and when we're not
attached to it, looking acertain way or feeling a certain
way, there's, there's just somuch freedom, so much freedom
(48:57):
for yourself, for the otherperson, like mirrors, I mean, at
the end of other person.
Speaker 1 (49:01):
We're all just mirrors.
I mean, at the end of the daywe're all just mirrors walking
each other home right.
Speaker 2 (49:04):
Yeah Well, so Kyle and I, literally all our arrows
are opposite.
So everywhere that I'm defined,he's more flexible, and
everywhere that he's defined, Iwant to be flexible, it's kind
of hilarious really when welearn that it's like no wonder
it's so hard for us tounderstand each other.
(49:25):
And then we, then we started torecognize.
So if we actually recognizethis about each other, we become
stable because we've got allfour legs of a table.
You know, it's like if we canactually respect what the other
person brings versus frustratedthat you don't do it the same
way that I do, it can be reallybeautiful, Like all
relationships, even some of themost painful, can be really
(49:48):
fucking beautiful.
Yes.
Speaker 1 (49:51):
Yeah, totally All right.
Do we have to say anything?
Speaker 2 (49:56):
else, before we wrap this one up, I don't think I
mean just surrender, like notice, where you're attached, where
you you have a very strong ideaof what it should look like.
Let it go, let it dissolve,just get curious about what
actually is there.
What is there if you're notforcing it to look a certain way
?
That's a really fun, you know,experiment game to play with
yourself.
(50:16):
What does it look like?
If I am not really controllingand forcing an outcome You'd be,
surprised.
What's there?
Speaker 1 (50:25):
I love that.
I think we should leave itthere.
Thanks everyone for listening.
Speaker 2 (50:33):
See you next week.
If you enjoyed this show, letus know.
We're all about authenticconnections, so come chat with
us on social media or email.
Speaker 1 (50:40):
Links are listed in the show notes, so come chat
with us on social media or emailLinks are listed in the show
notes and please make sure tosubscribe to the podcast on your
favorite platform and share themagic on your socials.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
The Joe Rogan Experience
The official podcast of comedian Joe Rogan.
True Crime Tonight
If you eat, sleep, and breathe true crime, TRUE CRIME TONIGHT is serving up your nightly fix. Five nights a week, KT STUDIOS & iHEART RADIO invite listeners to pull up a seat for an unfiltered look at the biggest cases making headlines, celebrity scandals, and the trials everyone is watching. With a mix of expert analysis, hot takes, and listener call-ins, TRUE CRIME TONIGHT goes beyond the headlines to uncover the twists, turns, and unanswered questions that keep us all obsessed—because, at TRUE CRIME TONIGHT, there’s a seat for everyone. Whether breaking down crime scene forensics, scrutinizing serial killers, or debating the most binge-worthy true crime docs, True Crime Tonight is the fresh, fast-paced, and slightly addictive home for true crime lovers.