May 8, 2024 • 17 mins
Ever wondered how educators can pinpoint and tackle the unique challenges faced by struggling students? Join me on the Reaching Struggling Learners podcast, where we unravel the mysteries of educational interventions within MTSS and RTI frameworks. We delve into what it takes to set realistic student progress expectations and the art of crafting targeted goals that connect with the core of a student's learning gaps. With the right interventions in play, we observe the transformative journey of student improvement, where meaningful strides become noticeable in as little as six to nine weeks. But what happens when improvement stalls? We'll explore the common pitfalls and how to steer clear, ensuring that your teaching strategies are not only effective but also adaptable to the evolving needs of every learner.
So, pull up a chair, pour that much-needed coffee, and let's prepare to close out the year with strategies that aren't just theories but practical tools for real classroom heroes like you. Together, we're setting the stage for success, not just for the final stretch but for the journey ahead.
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Links Mentioned in the Show:
https://teachingstrugglinglearners.com
5 Steps to Getting Started with Progress Monitoring
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
So MTSS and RTI have been touted for years as the way
to student improvement, but howquickly can we really expect
progress?
At what kind of rate ofimprovement should we even be
looking for?
That's what I'd like to talkabout with you today.
(00:22):
That's what I'd like to talkabout with you today.
Hi, I'm Jessica Curtis ofTeaching Struggling Learners.
I'm a boy mom and a veteranteacher.
You're listening to theReaching Struggling Learners
podcast, where we talk all abouthelping students succeed
academically, socially andbehaviorally.
(00:45):
Thank you so much for tuning in.
The core question that weshould be asking ourselves in
every meeting is how do we knowif what we're doing is effective
(01:05):
?
There has to be no doubt ineveryone's mind that the
intervention that we're using iseffective or not, because if it
is, there's going to besignificant progress over time.
The chart, the data, all theinformation that we collect from
the progress monitoring ifwe're doing it right again, it
(01:29):
all should be going up and itshould be going up pretty
quickly.
For example, if our goal isthat the student will be able to
identify X number of letters orletter sounds, that student
should be making pretty quickprogress on that.
They should be learning a fewmore letters or letter sounds a
(01:52):
week.
If our goal was that thestudent would be able to do X
number of math facts weekly or Xnumber of math facts in a
minute, we should be seeingweekly or biweekly progress on
that on the graphs.
All of that is dependent on howgood our goals are and whether
(02:13):
our goals are targeted at thecorrect skill gap the most
foundational skill and if theintervention that we have chosen
is most effective for thatskill.
Now, if you have questionsabout how to progress monitor, I
(02:34):
want to encourage you to pickup my five steps to beginning
progress monitoring.
There's also a whole bunch ofpodcast episodes and I will link
them in the show notes today,but you need to go back if you
have any questions whatsoever onhow to choose your goals, how
to write effective goals, how tofigure out what skill you want
(02:59):
you really, really need to befocusing on Today.
When we're talking about therate of improvement, I am
assuming that we've made goodgoals.
I'm assuming that you have thatunder your belt and that you
know how, that you're followingthe procedures for collecting
(03:20):
consistent data and the datayou're collecting is on the
skill gap that you're focusingon.
All of that, if you take all ofthat into consideration, if you
have a goal that is focused onwhat the student actually needs
to work on the most significantfoundational skill and you are
(03:44):
progress monitoring that skilland your intervention is focused
on filling the gaps for thatfoundational skill, you should
see pretty fast improvement.
The fact is, if we are honed inon the correct thing, the
students are really primed tomake really fast improvement.
(04:08):
We should see pretty quickimprovement.
We should see significant gainsover a six to nine week period.
Now if the data is stagnant orgoodness knows if it's going
down Again, assuming thatnothing crazy is going on, for
example oh goodness, hopefullynot a TBI or there's something
(04:30):
going on at home, something youknow, a divorce, or something
just ridiculous is going on.
Assuming that everything elseis pretty normal, then a couple
things could be happening.
Either the skill focus for thegoal or the intervention was
wrong or we are using the wrongintervention.
(04:51):
That's really all it is.
Assuming that the student has,you know, average intelligence.
Kids learn quickly.
So over a nine-week period theyreally should see some
significant improvement.
Now I realize that that can bedifferent for different things,
for example, and it also dependson the age that you're working
(05:14):
with.
If you're working withelementary school students and
you're working with lettersounds, you should see some
pretty quick improvement.
If you're working with highschoolers and you are working on
them understanding thedifferent definitions for
prefixes and suffixes, thatmight take a little bit longer
because that's a little bit morecomplicated skill that you're
(05:37):
trying to teach the students.
But again, over a six to nineweek period you should see those
graphs or the progressmonitoring data going up pretty,
pretty quickly.
It should not be a realstagnant line If the goal and
the intervention are focused onthe skill that you are working
(05:59):
on.
So yeah, we've all heard thatwhole whole thing.
Yeah, slow but steady wins therace.
Not here, not here, it doesn'tNot here.
If the skill that we're workingon is truly a foundational
skill gap and it's broken downinto the small section that it
(06:21):
should be, then progress on thatskill should be really
significant.
Now, a couple reasons that wemight not see progress again is
when the goal is muddy orunclear.
So meaning we have lots ofskills in it and if you go back
to previous podcast episodes, wedo that fairly regularly that
(06:44):
we'll write a goal that has abunch of different stuff in it.
We'll say that we want thestudent to be able to identify
all the letter sounds and beable to read CVC words.
Well, no, which do you want?
Which is your actual goal forthe student?
Do you want the child to beable to read CVC words?
(07:06):
Well, you shouldn't be askingthem to blend CVC words unless
they know all their lettersounds.
So your goal really should bethat the student will be able to
identify all the letter sounds.
You should not be mixingmultiple goals into one goal,
because again, that just muddiesthe water for what you're
(07:26):
trying to progress monitor.
Another reason that you mightsee less progress is the
intervention tries to work ontoo many skills at once.
So there are a lot ofespecially reading intervention
programs out there and they wantyou to do a little bit of
everything.
They want you to spend 10minutes on phonics and then they
(07:49):
want you to spend 10 minutesdoing sight words, and then they
want you to spend 10 minutesdoing fluency, and then they
want to divide up the time.
Well, the reality is, if thechild is working on, or you have
identified that the child isstruggling with, letter sounds,
then that's what we should bespending our time on.
(08:11):
We should be working in smalltime frame spurts of very
intensive work on that skill gap.
We shouldn't be trying to spendall this time on things that we
haven't identified as thestruggle for the student.
We need to be focused in ourinterventions.
(08:33):
The interventions are just kindof when you see an intervention
that is trying to do all thethings at once in a very short
amount of time.
That's not helping anybody moveforward.
It really isn't.
If we really want our studentsto make fast progress and fill
(08:53):
those skill gaps, we have to belaser focused in our
intervention time only onworking on that skill gap, which
means they should be makingprogress pretty quickly.
Because, again, we should bevery intense in our work in that
skill gap area.
We should be spending theentire time that we have set
(09:16):
aside to teach the student thenew sight words, if that's the
goal, or teach them to blendsounds together, if that's our
goal.
But that's what our time shouldbe.
We shouldn't be doing thisarray of intervention time
things just to fill the time.
(09:37):
If we have identified that thechild is struggling in phonics,
well by golly gee, we should bespending our time on phonics.
We shouldn't be working onsight words, fluency and
comprehension at the same time,they can get that stuff in the
classroom.
We have to focus on the veryspecific skill that that we have
identified as the root of theproblem.
(09:59):
So if the intervention doesn'tfocus on the skill or goal at
all which I have sat in somemeetings where there's been a
lot of confusion, mostly for mewhere the school has said we are
going to use this interventionprogram, but then the teachers
(10:22):
have identified that the goal,the skill that the child is
missing, is missing, not coveredby that intervention program.
Well then the teachers look atme and go well, what are we
supposed to do?
Well, you're supposed to workon the skill that we've
identified.
(10:43):
If we never address the skillthat we have identified as the
root of the problem, the childis not going to make progress.
It's just not going to happen.
It doesn't matter how manytimes you work on trying to
blend CVC words or teach kidsdigraphs or anything blends,
(11:06):
whatever it is, if they don'tknow their letter sounds, you're
not going to make progress,you're not going to make the
progress.
You're not going to make theprogress that the children need
or deserve to make.
So we have to make sure thatthe intervention that we choose
focuses on the skill and doesn'tjust disregard it.
(11:29):
Another example of this issometimes we will see at the
high school level, studentsunfortunately right now don't
know their phonics because wedidn't teach it to them for
various reasons back inelementary and middle school and
at the high school level I havehad teachers look at me and say
(11:50):
, well, we can't work on that,that's for elementary school.
We have to work on that.
That's for elementary school.
We have to work oncomprehension.
Working on comprehension is notgoing to help your student who
can't sound out words.
It's not going to.
So if you want the child to makeprogress, you have to focus on
the skill area that is the rootof the problem.
(12:13):
Again, if you have anyquestions on how to identify
these things, there are a lot ofprevious podcast episodes where
I've talked about getting tothe root of the problem.
You can use screener data tofigure out where you want to
start and also again pick up myfreebie the five steps to
getting started with progressmonitoring.
That is an excellent place tostart with all this, but the
(12:37):
reality is we got to make surethat we are identifying the
correct skill and then workingon that skill.
And then, finally, anotherreason, the final reason that we
might be seeing less progressthan we really should or it's
not as quick as it should be, isthe goal.
Or skill wasn't the mostfoundational skill gap?
(13:00):
So, if you're finding that, ifyou're looking at it and going,
yeah, we had a goal, the goalthat we set is addressed by the
intervention program that wehave in place.
The intervention program isabsolutely working on that skill
.
We've been collecting our dataso we don't understand why the
(13:22):
child isn't making progress.
And they're an intelligentchild.
We need to make sure that thegoal that we chose originally is
the actual foundational skill.
Sometimes we kind of assume, alot of times we assume that the
(13:42):
children are struggling becausewe'll I hear it a lot,
especially at the secondarylevel they need to increase
their fluency.
We need to get their fluencyrate up.
Okay, what is causing thefluency rate to be low?
Oh, is it because they can'tsound out words?
Is it because they don't knowtheir sight words?
(14:03):
We got to look at it, you haveto.
And then when you realize that,oh, we've been working on
fluency, or, let's be honest, alot of times it's we've been
working on fluency or, let's behonest, a lot of times it's.
We've been working oncomprehension and you start to
dig into it.
Well, the comprehension is badbecause the fluency rates are so
low.
The fluency is slow because thestudents don't have decoding
(14:28):
skills.
The students can't decode wordsbecause they don't know their
basic phonics, the letter sounds.
They don't know the sounds thatthe digraphs make.
They don't know how to blendthe sounds together.
They never learn these things.
Oh well, they're strugglingwith the letter sounds because
(14:50):
they have a hard time hearingthe different sounds in the
words.
We're getting down intophonemic awareness at that point
.
So you have to make sure eventhough it doesn't matter what
grade you're talking about orwhat age you're talking about,
you have to make sure that thegoal that you are working on is
(15:10):
the most foundational skill gap,because it all builds.
Working on is the mostfoundational skill gap because
it all builds.
I've said it, I don't even knowhow many times I've given the
analogy of you would never buy ahouse that only had 80% of the
foundation.
You want your house to have100% of the foundation so that
you can have 100% of the walls,so that you can have 100% of
(15:33):
your roof.
You have to have all thosethings that don't seem
significant.
We don't, on a daily basis,think about the foundations of
our house until our foundationstarts settling and cracks start
forming.
We have to make sure that wehave a good, solid foundation
(15:53):
for our students and if theydon't have that, then we have to
dig in and we have to shore itup.
We have to fix those skill gapsso that our students can be
successful.
So I will link a whole bunch ofprevious episodes that I have
done talking about you know howto get started in progress,
(16:16):
monitoring how to choose yourgoals, how to choose your skills
.
And again, if you're reallygetting started with this or
think that this might be an areaof weakness for your MTSS team
especially, check out theepisode where we talk about how
to use screeners, how to usethose screeners to choose your
(16:39):
goals, to choose yourfoundational skills.
They can definitely be veryhelpful in identifying those
weak areas for your students.
So next week we're going tostart talking about MTSS as a
system and how it should look inthe school as a whole, and I
(16:59):
can't wait to start talkingabout that because we're going
to start breaking down MTSS andwhat it should look like in the
different subject areas and howit can really be helpful for all
of our students.
And even next month I want toI've actually started writing it
down I want to start talkingabout absenteeism and MTSS.
(17:20):
So we've got some reallyinteresting things coming up in
the next few weeks that can bereally helpful as we end this
school year and you can start,we can start thinking about how
we will make MTSS what we wantit to be as we go into the next
school year.
Until next time, may yourcoffee be strong, your students
(17:44):
calm and the end of your yearsuccessful.
Bye.
So MTSS and RTI have been touted for years as the way
to student improvement, but howquickly can we really expect
progress?
At what kind of rate ofimprovement should we even be
looking for?
That's what I'd like to talkabout with you today.
(00:22):
That's what I'd like to talkabout with you today.
Hi, I'm Jessica Curtis ofTeaching Struggling Learners.
I'm a boy mom and a veteranteacher.
You're listening to theReaching Struggling Learners
podcast, where we talk all abouthelping students succeed
academically, socially andbehaviorally.
(00:45):
Thank you so much for tuning in.
The core question that weshould be asking ourselves in
every meeting is how do we knowif what we're doing is effective
(01:05):
?
There has to be no doubt ineveryone's mind that the
intervention that we're using iseffective or not, because if it
is, there's going to besignificant progress over time.
The chart, the data, all theinformation that we collect from
the progress monitoring ifwe're doing it right again, it
(01:29):
all should be going up and itshould be going up pretty
quickly.
For example, if our goal isthat the student will be able to
identify X number of letters orletter sounds, that student
should be making pretty quickprogress on that.
They should be learning a fewmore letters or letter sounds a
(01:52):
week.
If our goal was that thestudent would be able to do X
number of math facts weekly or Xnumber of math facts in a
minute, we should be seeingweekly or biweekly progress on
that on the graphs.
All of that is dependent on howgood our goals are and whether
(02:13):
our goals are targeted at thecorrect skill gap the most
foundational skill and if theintervention that we have chosen
is most effective for thatskill.
Now, if you have questionsabout how to progress monitor, I
(02:34):
want to encourage you to pickup my five steps to beginning
progress monitoring.
There's also a whole bunch ofpodcast episodes and I will link
them in the show notes today,but you need to go back if you
have any questions whatsoever onhow to choose your goals, how
to write effective goals, how tofigure out what skill you want
(02:59):
you really, really need to befocusing on Today.
When we're talking about therate of improvement, I am
assuming that we've made goodgoals.
I'm assuming that you have thatunder your belt and that you
know how, that you're followingthe procedures for collecting
(03:20):
consistent data and the datayou're collecting is on the
skill gap that you're focusingon.
All of that, if you take all ofthat into consideration, if you
have a goal that is focused onwhat the student actually needs
to work on the most significantfoundational skill and you are
(03:44):
progress monitoring that skilland your intervention is focused
on filling the gaps for thatfoundational skill, you should
see pretty fast improvement.
The fact is, if we are honed inon the correct thing, the
students are really primed tomake really fast improvement.
(04:08):
We should see pretty quickimprovement.
We should see significant gainsover a six to nine week period.
Now if the data is stagnant orgoodness knows if it's going
down Again, assuming thatnothing crazy is going on, for
example oh goodness, hopefullynot a TBI or there's something
(04:30):
going on at home, something youknow, a divorce, or something
just ridiculous is going on.
Assuming that everything elseis pretty normal, then a couple
things could be happening.
Either the skill focus for thegoal or the intervention was
wrong or we are using the wrongintervention.
(04:51):
That's really all it is.
Assuming that the student has,you know, average intelligence.
Kids learn quickly.
So over a nine-week period theyreally should see some
significant improvement.
Now I realize that that can bedifferent for different things,
for example, and it also dependson the age that you're working
(05:14):
with.
If you're working withelementary school students and
you're working with lettersounds, you should see some
pretty quick improvement.
If you're working with highschoolers and you are working on
them understanding thedifferent definitions for
prefixes and suffixes, thatmight take a little bit longer
because that's a little bit morecomplicated skill that you're
(05:37):
trying to teach the students.
But again, over a six to nineweek period you should see those
graphs or the progressmonitoring data going up pretty,
pretty quickly.
It should not be a realstagnant line If the goal and
the intervention are focused onthe skill that you are working
(05:59):
on.
So yeah, we've all heard thatwhole whole thing.
Yeah, slow but steady wins therace.
Not here, not here, it doesn'tNot here.
If the skill that we're workingon is truly a foundational
skill gap and it's broken downinto the small section that it
(06:21):
should be, then progress on thatskill should be really
significant.
Now, a couple reasons that wemight not see progress again is
when the goal is muddy orunclear.
So meaning we have lots ofskills in it and if you go back
to previous podcast episodes, wedo that fairly regularly that
(06:44):
we'll write a goal that has abunch of different stuff in it.
We'll say that we want thestudent to be able to identify
all the letter sounds and beable to read CVC words.
Well, no, which do you want?
Which is your actual goal forthe student?
Do you want the child to beable to read CVC words?
(07:06):
Well, you shouldn't be askingthem to blend CVC words unless
they know all their lettersounds.
So your goal really should bethat the student will be able to
identify all the letter sounds.
You should not be mixingmultiple goals into one goal,
because again, that just muddiesthe water for what you're
(07:26):
trying to progress monitor.
Another reason that you mightsee less progress is the
intervention tries to work ontoo many skills at once.
So there are a lot ofespecially reading intervention
programs out there and they wantyou to do a little bit of
everything.
They want you to spend 10minutes on phonics and then they
(07:49):
want you to spend 10 minutesdoing sight words, and then they
want you to spend 10 minutesdoing fluency, and then they
want to divide up the time.
Well, the reality is, if thechild is working on, or you have
identified that the child isstruggling with, letter sounds,
then that's what we should bespending our time on.
(08:11):
We should be working in smalltime frame spurts of very
intensive work on that skill gap.
We shouldn't be trying to spendall this time on things that we
haven't identified as thestruggle for the student.
We need to be focused in ourinterventions.
(08:33):
The interventions are just kindof when you see an intervention
that is trying to do all thethings at once in a very short
amount of time.
That's not helping anybody moveforward.
It really isn't.
If we really want our studentsto make fast progress and fill
(08:53):
those skill gaps, we have to belaser focused in our
intervention time only onworking on that skill gap, which
means they should be makingprogress pretty quickly.
Because, again, we should bevery intense in our work in that
skill gap area.
We should be spending theentire time that we have set
(09:16):
aside to teach the student thenew sight words, if that's the
goal, or teach them to blendsounds together, if that's our
goal.
But that's what our time shouldbe.
We shouldn't be doing thisarray of intervention time
things just to fill the time.
(09:37):
If we have identified that thechild is struggling in phonics,
well by golly gee, we should bespending our time on phonics.
We shouldn't be working onsight words, fluency and
comprehension at the same time,they can get that stuff in the
classroom.
We have to focus on the veryspecific skill that that we have
identified as the root of theproblem.
(09:59):
So if the intervention doesn'tfocus on the skill or goal at
all which I have sat in somemeetings where there's been a
lot of confusion, mostly for mewhere the school has said we are
going to use this interventionprogram, but then the teachers
(10:22):
have identified that the goal,the skill that the child is
missing, is missing, not coveredby that intervention program.
Well then the teachers look atme and go well, what are we
supposed to do?
Well, you're supposed to workon the skill that we've
identified.
(10:43):
If we never address the skillthat we have identified as the
root of the problem, the childis not going to make progress.
It's just not going to happen.
It doesn't matter how manytimes you work on trying to
blend CVC words or teach kidsdigraphs or anything blends,
(11:06):
whatever it is, if they don'tknow their letter sounds, you're
not going to make progress,you're not going to make the
progress.
You're not going to make theprogress that the children need
or deserve to make.
So we have to make sure thatthe intervention that we choose
focuses on the skill and doesn'tjust disregard it.
(11:29):
Another example of this issometimes we will see at the
high school level, studentsunfortunately right now don't
know their phonics because wedidn't teach it to them for
various reasons back inelementary and middle school and
at the high school level I havehad teachers look at me and say
(11:50):
, well, we can't work on that,that's for elementary school.
We have to work on that.
That's for elementary school.
We have to work oncomprehension.
Working on comprehension is notgoing to help your student who
can't sound out words.
It's not going to.
So if you want the child to makeprogress, you have to focus on
the skill area that is the rootof the problem.
(12:13):
Again, if you have anyquestions on how to identify
these things, there are a lot ofprevious podcast episodes where
I've talked about getting tothe root of the problem.
You can use screener data tofigure out where you want to
start and also again pick up myfreebie the five steps to
getting started with progressmonitoring.
That is an excellent place tostart with all this, but the
(12:37):
reality is we got to make surethat we are identifying the
correct skill and then workingon that skill.
And then, finally, anotherreason, the final reason that we
might be seeing less progressthan we really should or it's
not as quick as it should be, isthe goal.
Or skill wasn't the mostfoundational skill gap?
(13:00):
So, if you're finding that, ifyou're looking at it and going,
yeah, we had a goal, the goalthat we set is addressed by the
intervention program that wehave in place.
The intervention program isabsolutely working on that skill
.
We've been collecting our dataso we don't understand why the
(13:22):
child isn't making progress.
And they're an intelligentchild.
We need to make sure that thegoal that we chose originally is
the actual foundational skill.
Sometimes we kind of assume, alot of times we assume that the
(13:42):
children are struggling becausewe'll I hear it a lot,
especially at the secondarylevel they need to increase
their fluency.
We need to get their fluencyrate up.
Okay, what is causing thefluency rate to be low?
Oh, is it because they can'tsound out words?
Is it because they don't knowtheir sight words?
(14:03):
We got to look at it, you haveto.
And then when you realize that,oh, we've been working on
fluency, or, let's be honest, alot of times it's we've been
working on fluency or, let's behonest, a lot of times it's.
We've been working oncomprehension and you start to
dig into it.
Well, the comprehension is badbecause the fluency rates are so
low.
The fluency is slow because thestudents don't have decoding
(14:28):
skills.
The students can't decode wordsbecause they don't know their
basic phonics, the letter sounds.
They don't know the sounds thatthe digraphs make.
They don't know how to blendthe sounds together.
They never learn these things.
Oh well, they're strugglingwith the letter sounds because
(14:50):
they have a hard time hearingthe different sounds in the
words.
We're getting down intophonemic awareness at that point
.
So you have to make sure eventhough it doesn't matter what
grade you're talking about orwhat age you're talking about,
you have to make sure that thegoal that you are working on is
(15:10):
the most foundational skill gap,because it all builds.
Working on is the mostfoundational skill gap because
it all builds.
I've said it, I don't even knowhow many times I've given the
analogy of you would never buy ahouse that only had 80% of the
foundation.
You want your house to have100% of the foundation so that
you can have 100% of the walls,so that you can have 100% of
(15:33):
your roof.
You have to have all thosethings that don't seem
significant.
We don't, on a daily basis,think about the foundations of
our house until our foundationstarts settling and cracks start
forming.
We have to make sure that wehave a good, solid foundation
(15:53):
for our students and if theydon't have that, then we have to
dig in and we have to shore itup.
We have to fix those skill gapsso that our students can be
successful.
So I will link a whole bunch ofprevious episodes that I have
done talking about you know howto get started in progress,
(16:16):
monitoring how to choose yourgoals, how to choose your skills
.
And again, if you're reallygetting started with this or
think that this might be an areaof weakness for your MTSS team
especially, check out theepisode where we talk about how
to use screeners, how to usethose screeners to choose your
(16:39):
goals, to choose yourfoundational skills.
They can definitely be veryhelpful in identifying those
weak areas for your students.
So next week we're going tostart talking about MTSS as a
system and how it should look inthe school as a whole, and I
(16:59):
can't wait to start talkingabout that because we're going
to start breaking down MTSS andwhat it should look like in the
different subject areas and howit can really be helpful for all
of our students.
And even next month I want toI've actually started writing it
down I want to start talkingabout absenteeism and MTSS.
(17:20):
So we've got some reallyinteresting things coming up in
the next few weeks that can bereally helpful as we end this
school year and you can start,we can start thinking about how
we will make MTSS what we wantit to be as we go into the next
school year.
Until next time, may yourcoffee be strong, your students
(17:44):
calm and the end of your yearsuccessful.
Bye.
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