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(00:03):
welcome to real beauty with I amso excited about this episode.
But before I go into it, I ambroadcasting.
If that's still a term, eventhough this isn't a radio.
Um, but I'm currently seeing inmy closet This is what we refer
to one of the spare bedroomsthat I've converted into my
(00:24):
closet.
And it is hot as fuck.
I mean it, I'm probably sittingat like 92 degrees upstairs and
it's like 90 downstairs.
We're going on to D eight.
That's right tomorrow will bedate eight.
I've not having an AC.
And holy shit.
(00:44):
I think I've sweated out my likeweight in sweat.
Unfortunately, my waistline isstill not representing this, but
I have no doubt.
It will catch up soon.
Um, but.
I'm not starting this podcastoff with a downer.
Had I been recording thisyesterday?
I probably would have feltdifferently.
(01:04):
Like the world is ending.
Is this to any of mygirlfriends.
I was in communication withyesterday.
I did not feel myself nor mybest.
So I'm giving myself grace.
So we all have those shittydays.
Um, But today is probably likemy best day since like, even
pre-surgery I was not feelinggreat for like a couple of weeks
(01:27):
before everything happened.
Um, today's me, my best day.
I was back in the office.
I wore an awesome dress fromrent, the runway, which I am
back on, um, specifically, causewe have a wedding this weekend.
Um, and it was such a cutedress.
I wore heels.
Also the first time in like, Ican't remember.
(01:47):
Um, so yeah, so today was anawesome day and tomorrow.
The AC people will be comingover with a parts.
I feel beyond optimistic.
And then my mom's coming out onWednesday, so really excited.
Um, it's always nice to focus onlike the positive things.
Um, so yeah, and actually.
(02:10):
Uh, shout out to my previousmanager, staff in a, who
constantly spoke about marshalsand said how great it is.
I finally went this weekend tohave a timeout.
From the family.
And also seek AC, um, and it wassuper cute, much more organized
than, um, TJ Maxx.
(02:31):
Um, so really liked it.
And I actually picked up a supercute.
Um, Rachel Zoe.
Am I going to say, even ourname?
I feel like I'm questioningmyself now.
Um, but yeah, I picked up asuper cute skirt.
Um, and honestly I wanted a bitmore separate.
I was trying to be disciplined,so I will definitely be back.
(02:54):
So anyone who hasn't been toMarshall's.
I know, you're probably thinkingI'm the only one, but if you
haven't.
Um, highly recommend plus.
I actually got some.
Um, sale pieces from uncommonJames.
So that is.
The jewelry range by Kristin.
(03:15):
Um, capillary from.
I'm sure you all will rememberlike Laguna beach or the Hills,
but anyway, she started thisrange.
I mean, I honestly think maybelike five, six years But it is
super impressive.
Um, I got like a necklace and Ialso have earrings and the
earrings are like gorgeousstatement earrings.
(03:37):
So very impressed.
But anyway, I will stopchit-chatting.
Um, so this episode is with Dr.
Michael Lennox.
Um, and I go into like hisbackground, but, um, I will say
this is great timing becauseagain, my mom is coming out and
she was actually here when Irecorded this with him earlier
this year.
(03:58):
Um, so yeah, time flies, whichis wild.
But it was just such afascinating discussion.
And again, I split it up overtwo episodes.
Um, so actually the next episodeis when I talk in a bit more
detail about like, my mom hasvery like specific dreams.
But anyway, I hope you enjoy.
Thanks.
francene (04:19):
Hey, Michael checking.
You can
michael (04:20):
hear me.
Hey, loud and clear.
Hey.
Hey.
Hey.
Hey.
Hi.
How's it going?
francene (04:25):
How's it
michael (04:26):
going?
Oh, honey.
I've just had the mostincredibly difficult four or
(04:46):
five.
Oh, no.
Oh, I'm sorry.
Retrograding V retrograding.
Venus and the sun.
Yes.
Came together on Friday.
So yeah, Venus is retrograde.
We're all in this deep emotionalinvestigation.
The sun on that's like a bigriver atory moment and somebody
that I'm seeing a bit hurt myfeelings really badly.
(05:09):
Um, And I spent four days in theanxious attachment I experienced
when I was like in my twenties.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Oh no.
And I, let me assure you thethree dimensional story of what
buck did was nothing.
It was like nothing.
It was a blip, it was a blip.
And like we're fine.
Yeah.
(05:29):
Yeah.
I was on the floor the nextmorning in like 7, 8, 9 month
old experiences of no one'scoming to soothe this.
Yeah.
Which is what it was like when Iwas 7, 8, 9 months.
So the full moon, the.
Was on my north node, my DMA.
(05:49):
Right.
So karma got kicked up onFriday.
The full moon ended itovernight.
And it's like, I didn't believethat I would go to bed and wake
up feeling better, even thoughthat's what the astrology said.
Yeah.
But my, I was so much pain.
I was like, ah, yeah.
Yeah.
And, um, I woke up this morningfeeling like myself again and.
(06:10):
Buck returned from Dallas.
And there were texts on my phoneovernight.
I was like, right.
We're just back to where we wereon Thursday.
Thank you, astrology.
francene (06:22):
Yeah, isn't it.
Um, oh my gosh.
I'm so, so pumped at talking toyou today.
I have so many
michael (06:28):
questions.
Yay.
I'm I love it.
Listen, questions are good.
Like that's I'm I'm I?
Yeah.
I'm yeah, this is gonna be fun.
francene (06:36):
Yay.
Um, so.
Obviously I will do like the,um, the intro and everything
else.
Um, so don't worry.
That will be kinda added in.
Yeah.
Um, so firstly, how, how did youget.
Involved in this because youstudied psychology, right?
(06:57):
Yeah.
Originally.
Huh?
And then you went on to look atastronom, um, astrology and then
personality.
But yeah.
Tell me how.
michael (07:06):
Yeah.
Yeah, no, totally the opposite,like that is not at all.
It started as a teenager, as aspiritual rising up of, of gifts
and intuition and curiosities.
Yeah.
Okay.
And the ability to interpretdreams was something that was
pre-installed that I discoveredas a teenager.
And so by the time I went tograd school in my mid thirties,
(07:28):
I was already fully formed as anintuitive, I was interpreting
dreams for decades.
I was doing workshops on dreaminterpretation at like 28 years
old.
Oh my God.
And so the psychology degree wasin that moment, I'm like 36
years old.
I'm sort.
Practicing interestingspiritual, intuitive stuff on
(07:50):
the side.
But my job, I was vice presidentof new business development at
Playboy.
No no
francene (07:59):
way.
Yeah,
michael (08:00):
no, no way.
Lots of fun.
I've been at MGM for five years.
I was in the entertainmentindustry as an executive and on
the side, I'm doing readings forpeople, right.
Workshop and whatnot.
And I was like, my soul is beingeaten.
I am not doing what I'm here todo.
I don't wanna be a.
Therapist, but I need to knowmore.
(08:20):
I need to know deeply about thehuman condition.
I don't wanna be someone outthere teaching and helping.
Who's just intuitive and, youknow, whatever.
I was like, we need credit.
I wanna know.
And I wanna Dr.
In front of my name and I don'tcare if it takes me six years to
make it happen.
So I just went to grad schoolsaying, I don't know where this
(08:42):
is gonna lead.
And it changed everything in mylife.
And so.
Right.
When I finished my master's, Igot a television show on the
sci-fi network as a dreamexpert.
And while the show was not asuccess and that was not the
future, I hoped it would be.
Yeah.
What I got at like 40 years oldwas.
(09:02):
I can do this as a career.
I can be a teacher, a dreamexpert.
I was already diving intoastrology and I started making
my living doing astrologicalreadings in a bit in, at that
age.
And then, you know, I, I leftthe corporate world behind in
the first half of my life andentered this chapter 20
(09:23):
something years ago and put itall together.
Mm-hmm and so the education camelast.
francene (09:31):
No way.
So wait, you were able to readdreams when you were younger.
Like, so how, how did you knowthat?
Like, like you just heard, likepeople would talk about their
dreams and you're like, I knowwhat that means.
michael (09:45):
Well, it's actually, there's a cute piece of the
story that I don't always tell,but I'm gonna tell it to you,
which is that a lot of it had todo with a show album of Fiddler
on the.
Yes.
Yes.
There's a dream sequence.
Mm-hmm in Fiddler on the roof.
It's a very vibrant, importantpiece of music and it changes
the plot tremendously.
Yeah.
And it's on the show album andit's a dream.
(10:08):
And he says, so he says, I hadthis dream cuz there's dialogue
on the album.
And he's like, ah, I had adream.
It was terrible.
And Golda says the wife.
Tell me what you dreamed andI'll tell you what it meant.
Mm-hmm so I just heard thatphrase a thousand times as a
kid.
Cause you know, my mom playedthat album a lot.
Yeah.
(10:28):
So cut to 15 years old andFreud's interpretation of dreams
shows up on the bookshelf.
Cuz my mom's getting an MSWmaster's in social work.
Mm-hmm I read it cuz I lovedreams.
I've been fascinated with dreamssince I was a little boy.
Me too.
Yeah.
and I read anything that wasinteresting on my mother's
shelves.
Right?
Mm-hmm you know, when I wasyounger, was looking at the
medical books to find picturesof genitalia, and then I
(10:51):
graduated at 15 to that's aninteresting book on dreams.
Um, I think I looked in everyacademic book in my life.
I looked in the index to findthe word homosexuality, just to
see if I could learn somethingabout my, you know, budding
Gauss.
I read this book on dreams and Ireally get some understanding
that dreams are valuable andthey reveal stuff.
(11:14):
And like your deep
francene (11:15):
subconscious.
Yes.
michael (11:16):
Yes.
I don't know that I understoodFreud at 15, but I certainly got
that.
He was saying very clearly youhave this unconscious material.
It's really unconscious.
Yeah.
And dreams.
He called it dreams the Royalroad to the unconscious mm-hmm
So you walk around high schoolto what a kid say all the time.
I had the craziest dream lastnight.
(11:37):
Right?
You still say that now?
Yeah.
Right.
Of course everybody would givehigh school office water coolers
today.
It's on text, right?
Sure.
Yeah.
I remembered Golda.
So kids would say I had thecraziest dream and I just.
I don't know, I guess I got kindof bossy about it and I said,
well, tell me what you weredreaming.
(11:58):
And I I'd love to, you know, saysomething about it.
Yeah.
And so people would, and I wouldsay what I would say, and people
would stop.
They would widen their eyes andthey'd go, wow.
That makes a lot of sense.
Yeah.
That experience I am telling allmy secrets today.
No, I love this.
(12:19):
This is great.
That experience lit up my littlenarcissism so strongly, like you
mean you're gonna pay attentionto me for a few minutes and
you're gonna think that what Ihave had to say is really
valuable.
Yeah.
And you gonna look at me likethat.
I want more that feeling, babyso I did it a lot.
Yeah.
francene (12:39):
Right now that's a great talent.
michael (12:41):
I don't know, like I would love to be a fly on the
wall and go back to what it waslike at 16 and 17 and hear a
dream and speak into it.
Um, but I, this is what Ilearned many, many years ago.
Now I'm a full on adult.
I'm I'm preparing a televisionshow on the sci-fi networks of
dreams or everything and, and amanager at the time.
(13:03):
And she said, you know, Michael,you're gonna have to figure out
what it is you do when youinterpret a dream till you can
teach it.
Yeah.
I was like, well, actually Icried.
In that moment, cuz I wasoverwhelmed at the question cuz
it just felt like, well it justfeels like a crazy, I don't
know.
Yeah.
But I started watching what washappening in my mind and in my
(13:24):
thoughts and in my voice when Iheard and then responded to a
dream, the dream is just a storyit's being told in the language
of symbols.
I'm hearing the symbols and I'mgoing immediately to what the
universal sensibility might bearound that symbol based on what
(13:45):
it is, what it does, what itsuse is, what its essence is
like.
If somebody has a dream about arefrigerator, it's not their
refrigerator in the kitchen,it's their dreaming.
It's the idea of being able topreserve.
Because that's what arefrigerator does.
It helps us preserve our food.
(14:06):
Right.
Right.
So that's its essence that's itsuse.
So then that gives it itsmeaning that isn't that thing in
the refrigerator.
That's probably yellow and wellI'm aging, myself, avocado green
refrigerators.
We're a big thing in the, yeah.
You know what I'm saying?
So, um, I can do that with adream so fast that by the time
(14:28):
you're telling it to me, I amalready vibing with what's the
meaning behind the meaning?
Like what's the I'm holding herea glass.
Well, it's a cut.
It's a.
Actually made out of copper, acopper copper of water, right?
Yeah.
So the use of this thing is ithelps me sustain myself.
It allows me to draw to me whatI need for life force, water
(14:51):
mm-hmm mm-hmm So if the cup isbroken in the dream, then the
dream is about your inability tohelp yourself or access what you
need.
For sustenance of life.
Right?
So my gift isn't that I knowthings that you don't know, it's
just that I can do this so fastin this kind of quantum place.
(15:11):
That isn't my conscious thinkingthat by the time you have
finished telling me your dream,I can tell you the story behind
the story based on how universalwisdom speaks to and through me.
Got it.
francene (15:28):
Crazy.
Like, so I, and this is ahundred percent why I reached
out every time I have a dream inthe morning, I will wake up.
I will wake my husband up andI'm like, oh my gosh, I dreamed
about blah, blah, blah.
And then I will instantly Googleit.
But sometimes when it's sospecific, you know, things like,
oh, um, oh my God, what's likethe classic one.
(15:49):
Like your teeth are falling out.
It doesn't necessarily, it's notsymbolic of your teeth, but
isn't it do with money.
Your teeth?
michael (15:56):
Well, that's an interesting thought, like right
here.
Yeah.
Let's go with that idea.
Cause I certainly heard this.
I, I call'em superstitions.
Yeah.
That the superstitiousinterpretation of teeth falling
out is about money or losingresources.
Yes.
That's an old cultural idea thatprobably came out of some
cultural likes, you know, uh,uh, uh, you know, you can't,
(16:21):
it's a politically incorrectterm to use the term wives tale.
I try to.
Say that, but superstitiouscultural ideas, you know, a
yellow bird means yourmother-in-law is coming.
Yeah, I, I actually read that inan, a, in a very old dream
dictionary, like pre psychology.
Yeah.
Yellow bird.
Mother-in-laws visiting.
(16:42):
Oh, God.
Right.
So I think there are a lot ofmeanings that come from those
cultural sort of perspectives.
Yeah.
But the way I work and approachuniversal meaning is, well, what
do your teeth do?
Well, first of all, they aid indigestion.
They're the first line ofbreaking down food.
So you can be sustained andnurtured.
(17:02):
Yeah.
They attract love.
Mm-hmm reveal them in a smileand love comes back to.
So just right there, sustenanceand nurturing self and
attracting love.
If you can't do that, then yourdream is reflecting a kind of an
insecurity of not being able tocare herself or draw in love.
(17:26):
And because the teeth arelocated.
In the mouth and the mouth isthe point through which our
voice emerges.
And our voice is how we expressour sovereignty and power in the
world.
Yeah.
Than anything that's connectedto the mouth is also gonna
reflect your relationship to howyou are speaking up for
yourself, setting boundaries anddeclaring who you are, not
(17:49):
through your voice.
So it could be a money dream,but I doubt it.
It's probably a dream aboutfeeling insecure and needing to
recognize that there's more sortof groundedness and strength
required in how you relate totaking care of yourself that
your needs are met, attractinglove and speaking your truth.
(18:11):
Do
francene (18:11):
you think if more people.
Kinda listen to your point.
If you wake up in the morningand you know, whatever the dream
is, you cuz I will alsosometimes write it down in my
notes.
Cause you forget it so quickly.
Yeah.
I'll write it down and think,okay.
What, what were the main things?
And then I try and think.
I don't know.
(18:31):
I feel like sometimes it's likea guide to your life that you're
not thinking about.
So you mentioned like health, sodo you think sometimes your
dreams are.
Trying to kind of give youwarning or draw your attention
to something and how many peoplejust ignore it.
michael (18:49):
Yeah.
Um, I love this question and Iwanna speak into, there's a,
kind of, a bunch of complexideas that you're actually
putting on the table.
One is this outside of what Ican do in interpreting dreams,
that feels like a God-given giftto me and that the people who I
share it with go, oh my God.
And by now at 58 years old,having done it since I was 18, I
(19:13):
have a lot of experience withthat.
So I trust that to be.
Yes.
But at the end of the day, yourjob with your dreams is not to
figure out what they mean.
Now that might be a littleironic coming from somebody who
has an ability to hear yourdream and tell you what I think
(19:33):
it means.
Right, right, right.
That is my gift.
And so I learn around theplanet.
Utilizing my gift because it'smy gift.
In fact, I got a lot of flack ingrad school because in, in, as a
trained therapist, you'retrained, never to touch people's
dreams.
Oh, really?
Why?
Why is that?
Oh, because of this principle,the dream is sacred.
The dream belongs to thedreamer.
(19:54):
You do not wanna.
Can I curse?
Yes.
Yeah.
You do not wanna fuck with that.
at all.
So it would go a little bit likethis people, you know,
professors professionaltherapists would say, oh, no
one, you should never interpreta dream of a client.
And I would say, you're right.
You never, should.
(20:16):
You never should.
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
But I ain't gonna stoppracticing my God-given gift.
The, the challenge in that isyou might hear me interpret a
dream and say, oh, the bestthing to do with the dream is
know what it means definitively.
Mm.
Yeah.
But it, but the opposite is so,so when I'm teaching or doing
(20:39):
workshops, even though I'mshowing you what my gift looks
like, I'm also trying to makesure that people understand that
really your dreams are justlike.
A mother at the pool with hereight year old, who wants to
jump in and say, Hey, ma lookAnd the kid jumps in and mom is
(21:02):
like, huh.
Then she goes back to her bookor Cosmo and like has to do it
again.
10 minutes later when the eightyear old is like, ma look and
it's the same thing.
Right?
Let our dreams are a little likethat.
They're like a part of us thatjust want to be related.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And they come from ourunconscious.
(21:22):
And when you relate to them, youare relating to yourself in the
most intimate way a person canrelate to themselves.
Mm-hmm through considering whatthe unconscious is expressing.
Yep.
So when you write down a dream,because you know that in the
ether, it will be gone.
That's dream work.
(21:43):
That alone increases the ongoingdialogue between conscious and
unconscious mind.
That happens every night whenyou're asleep.
Yeah.
It's every night, honey, youmight remember a dream every
five nights.
Yeah.
But every single night you'reunconscious and your conscious
mind are relating to each other.
And we wake up wiser and smarterbecause of our dream.
(22:07):
You know, we're learning in theREM state data.
Like when you learn, like you,you study calculus during the
day, you spend more time in REMsleep at night, that's proven in
the lab because your mind isdownloading the data and turning
it into short term memory.
Right.
I think the same thing is saidabout wisdom, like in, you know,
(22:28):
smarts intelligence is about thethings, you know, mm-hmm, wisdom
is about how you take what, youknow, and turned it into better.
francene (22:35):
Yes, ideally, right?
Yes.
Ideally
michael (22:39):
but yes.
So every night we visit with ourunconscious and wake up the next
day wiser.
And it's through the dreamprocess.
I believe that that happens.
Yeah.
So if you write down your dream,you've already lifted up that
mechanism.
(22:59):
to a higher level.
Mm-hmm if you then share thatdream with another human being
your poor husband every
francene (23:05):
morning.
Yeah, I know.
I know.
I wanna say, I tell the amountof random stuff.
I, uh, I, I tell him, but,
michael (23:12):
but you understand that's dream work.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Like it may even be.
Innocuous and silly.
I'm telling my I'm nudging myhusband and annoying him with my
dream.
And I'm sure he has a funny wayof talking about this when
you're having dinner with otherpeople.
Yeah.
but that's elevating yourexperience of something that's
(23:34):
very intimate inside of you.
Yeah, true.
You know, and then if you do anywork on it, that's further than
that by marinating ruminating orwriting or journaling or
thinking or Googling.
Googling is good.
Yeah.
That can lead to some good,valuable information.
Not always, sometimes sometimes.
Absolutely.
And, um, then if you take it formy money, the top way to respond
(23:58):
to a dream is.
You know, the dream is speakingto you in the language of
symbol.
Why not speak back to yourunconscious in the language of
symbol?
So you can write about it andtalk about it.
But if you sit down with yourcrayons and draw a little
picture of the scene from thedream, now you're cooking with
gas.
Now you're unconscious is gonnareceive the imprint of that
(24:20):
symbolic expression.
You've just created with yourimagination and your creativity
and your crayons and go, oh,should paying attention.
Let's give us some moreinformation through the dream
state.
And then the whole thing risesup, gets a little bit more.
Oh, wow.
francene (24:36):
I'm a hundred percent gonna try that.
welcome to real beauty with I amso excited about this episode.
But before I go into it, I ambroadcasting.
If that's still a term, eventhough this isn't a radio.
Um, but I'm currently seeing inmy closet This is what we refer
to one of the spare bedroomsthat I've converted into my
(00:24):
closet.
And it is hot as fuck.
I mean it, I'm probably sittingat like 92 degrees upstairs and
it's like 90 downstairs.
We're going on to D eight.
That's right tomorrow will bedate eight.
I've not having an AC.
And holy shit.
(00:44):
I think I've sweated out my likeweight in sweat.
Unfortunately, my waistline isstill not representing this, but
I have no doubt.
It will catch up soon.
Um, but.
I'm not starting this podcastoff with a downer.
Had I been recording thisyesterday?
I probably would have feltdifferently.
(01:04):
Like the world is ending.
Is this to any of mygirlfriends.
I was in communication withyesterday.
I did not feel myself nor mybest.
So I'm giving myself grace.
So we all have those shittydays.
Um, But today is probably likemy best day since like, even
pre-surgery I was not feelinggreat for like a couple of weeks
(01:27):
before everything happened.
Um, today's me, my best day.
I was back in the office.
I wore an awesome dress fromrent, the runway, which I am
back on, um, specifically, causewe have a wedding this weekend.
Um, and it was such a cutedress.
I wore heels.
Also the first time in like, Ican't remember.
(01:47):
Um, so yeah, so today was anawesome day and tomorrow.
The AC people will be comingover with a parts.
I feel beyond optimistic.
And then my mom's coming out onWednesday, so really excited.
Um, it's always nice to focus onlike the positive things.
Um, so yeah, and actually.
(02:10):
Uh, shout out to my previousmanager, staff in a, who
constantly spoke about marshalsand said how great it is.
I finally went this weekend tohave a timeout.
From the family.
And also seek AC, um, and it wassuper cute, much more organized
than, um, TJ Maxx.
(02:31):
Um, so really liked it.
And I actually picked up a supercute.
Um, Rachel Zoe.
Am I going to say, even ourname?
I feel like I'm questioningmyself now.
Um, but yeah, I picked up asuper cute skirt.
Um, and honestly I wanted a bitmore separate.
I was trying to be disciplined,so I will definitely be back.
(02:54):
So anyone who hasn't been toMarshall's.
I know, you're probably thinkingI'm the only one, but if you
haven't.
Um, highly recommend plus.
I actually got some.
Um, sale pieces from uncommonJames.
So that is.
The jewelry range by Kristin.
(03:15):
Um, capillary from.
I'm sure you all will rememberlike Laguna beach or the Hills,
but anyway, she started thisrange.
I mean, I honestly think maybelike five, six years But it is
super impressive.
Um, I got like a necklace and Ialso have earrings and the
earrings are like gorgeousstatement earrings.
(03:37):
So very impressed.
But anyway, I will stopchit-chatting.
Um, so this episode is with Dr.
Michael Lennox.
Um, and I go into like hisbackground, but, um, I will say
this is great timing becauseagain, my mom is coming out and
she was actually here when Irecorded this with him earlier
this year.
(03:58):
Um, so yeah, time flies, whichis wild.
But it was just such afascinating discussion.
And again, I split it up overtwo episodes.
Um, so actually the next episodeis when I talk in a bit more
detail about like, my mom hasvery like specific dreams.
But anyway, I hope you enjoy.
Thanks.
francene (04:19):
Hey, Michael checking.
You can
michael (04:20):
hear me.
Hey, loud and clear.
Hey.
Hey.
Hey.
Hey.
Hi.
How's it going?
francene (04:25):
How's it
michael (04:26):
going?
Oh, honey.
I've just had the mostincredibly difficult four or
(04:46):
five.
Oh, no.
Oh, I'm sorry.
Retrograding V retrograding.
Venus and the sun.
Yes.
Came together on Friday.
So yeah, Venus is retrograde.
We're all in this deep emotionalinvestigation.
The sun on that's like a bigriver atory moment and somebody
that I'm seeing a bit hurt myfeelings really badly.
(05:09):
Um, And I spent four days in theanxious attachment I experienced
when I was like in my twenties.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Oh no.
And I, let me assure you thethree dimensional story of what
buck did was nothing.
It was like nothing.
It was a blip, it was a blip.
And like we're fine.
Yeah.
(05:29):
Yeah.
I was on the floor the nextmorning in like 7, 8, 9 month
old experiences of no one'scoming to soothe this.
Yeah.
Which is what it was like when Iwas 7, 8, 9 months.
So the full moon, the.
Was on my north node, my DMA.
(05:49):
Right.
So karma got kicked up onFriday.
The full moon ended itovernight.
And it's like, I didn't believethat I would go to bed and wake
up feeling better, even thoughthat's what the astrology said.
Yeah.
But my, I was so much pain.
I was like, ah, yeah.
Yeah.
And, um, I woke up this morningfeeling like myself again and.
(06:10):
Buck returned from Dallas.
And there were texts on my phoneovernight.
I was like, right.
We're just back to where we wereon Thursday.
Thank you, astrology.
francene (06:22):
Yeah, isn't it.
Um, oh my gosh.
I'm so, so pumped at talking toyou today.
I have so many
michael (06:28):
questions.
Yay.
I'm I love it.
Listen, questions are good.
Like that's I'm I'm I?
Yeah.
I'm yeah, this is gonna be fun.
francene (06:36):
Yay.
Um, so.
Obviously I will do like the,um, the intro and everything
else.
Um, so don't worry.
That will be kinda added in.
Yeah.
Um, so firstly, how, how did youget.
Involved in this because youstudied psychology, right?
(06:57):
Yeah.
Originally.
Huh?
And then you went on to look atastronom, um, astrology and then
personality.
But yeah.
Tell me how.
michael (07:06):
Yeah.
Yeah, no, totally the opposite,like that is not at all.
It started as a teenager, as aspiritual rising up of, of gifts
and intuition and curiosities.
Yeah.
Okay.
And the ability to interpretdreams was something that was
pre-installed that I discoveredas a teenager.
And so by the time I went tograd school in my mid thirties,
(07:28):
I was already fully formed as anintuitive, I was interpreting
dreams for decades.
I was doing workshops on dreaminterpretation at like 28 years
old.
Oh my God.
And so the psychology degree wasin that moment, I'm like 36
years old.
I'm sort.
Practicing interestingspiritual, intuitive stuff on
(07:50):
the side.
But my job, I was vice presidentof new business development at
Playboy.
No no
francene (07:59):
way.
Yeah,
michael (08:00):
no, no way.
Lots of fun.
I've been at MGM for five years.
I was in the entertainmentindustry as an executive and on
the side, I'm doing readings forpeople, right.
Workshop and whatnot.
And I was like, my soul is beingeaten.
I am not doing what I'm here todo.
I don't wanna be a.
Therapist, but I need to knowmore.
(08:20):
I need to know deeply about thehuman condition.
I don't wanna be someone outthere teaching and helping.
Who's just intuitive and, youknow, whatever.
I was like, we need credit.
I wanna know.
And I wanna Dr.
In front of my name and I don'tcare if it takes me six years to
make it happen.
So I just went to grad schoolsaying, I don't know where this
(08:42):
is gonna lead.
And it changed everything in mylife.
And so.
Right.
When I finished my master's, Igot a television show on the
sci-fi network as a dreamexpert.
And while the show was not asuccess and that was not the
future, I hoped it would be.
Yeah.
What I got at like 40 years oldwas.
(09:02):
I can do this as a career.
I can be a teacher, a dreamexpert.
I was already diving intoastrology and I started making
my living doing astrologicalreadings in a bit in, at that
age.
And then, you know, I, I leftthe corporate world behind in
the first half of my life andentered this chapter 20
(09:23):
something years ago and put itall together.
Mm-hmm and so the education camelast.
francene (09:31):
No way.
So wait, you were able to readdreams when you were younger.
Like, so how, how did you knowthat?
Like, like you just heard, likepeople would talk about their
dreams and you're like, I knowwhat that means.
michael (09:45):
Well, it's actually, there's a cute piece of the
story that I don't always tell,but I'm gonna tell it to you,
which is that a lot of it had todo with a show album of Fiddler
on the.
Yes.
Yes.
There's a dream sequence.
Mm-hmm in Fiddler on the roof.
It's a very vibrant, importantpiece of music and it changes
the plot tremendously.
Yeah.
And it's on the show album andit's a dream.
(10:08):
And he says, so he says, I hadthis dream cuz there's dialogue
on the album.
And he's like, ah, I had adream.
It was terrible.
And Golda says the wife.
Tell me what you dreamed andI'll tell you what it meant.
Mm-hmm so I just heard thatphrase a thousand times as a
kid.
Cause you know, my mom playedthat album a lot.
Yeah.
(10:28):
So cut to 15 years old andFreud's interpretation of dreams
shows up on the bookshelf.
Cuz my mom's getting an MSWmaster's in social work.
Mm-hmm I read it cuz I lovedreams.
I've been fascinated with dreamssince I was a little boy.
Me too.
Yeah.
and I read anything that wasinteresting on my mother's
shelves.
Right?
Mm-hmm you know, when I wasyounger, was looking at the
medical books to find picturesof genitalia, and then I
(10:51):
graduated at 15 to that's aninteresting book on dreams.
Um, I think I looked in everyacademic book in my life.
I looked in the index to findthe word homosexuality, just to
see if I could learn somethingabout my, you know, budding
Gauss.
I read this book on dreams and Ireally get some understanding
that dreams are valuable andthey reveal stuff.
(11:14):
And like your deep
francene (11:15):
subconscious.
Yes.
michael (11:16):
Yes.
I don't know that I understoodFreud at 15, but I certainly got
that.
He was saying very clearly youhave this unconscious material.
It's really unconscious.
Yeah.
And dreams.
He called it dreams the Royalroad to the unconscious mm-hmm
So you walk around high schoolto what a kid say all the time.
I had the craziest dream lastnight.
(11:37):
Right?
You still say that now?
Yeah.
Right.
Of course everybody would givehigh school office water coolers
today.
It's on text, right?
Sure.
Yeah.
I remembered Golda.
So kids would say I had thecraziest dream and I just.
I don't know, I guess I got kindof bossy about it and I said,
well, tell me what you weredreaming.
(11:58):
And I I'd love to, you know, saysomething about it.
Yeah.
And so people would, and I wouldsay what I would say, and people
would stop.
They would widen their eyes andthey'd go, wow.
That makes a lot of sense.
Yeah.
That experience I am telling allmy secrets today.
No, I love this.
(12:19):
This is great.
That experience lit up my littlenarcissism so strongly, like you
mean you're gonna pay attentionto me for a few minutes and
you're gonna think that what Ihave had to say is really
valuable.
Yeah.
And you gonna look at me likethat.
I want more that feeling, babyso I did it a lot.
Yeah.
francene (12:39):
Right now that's a great talent.
michael (12:41):
I don't know, like I would love to be a fly on the
wall and go back to what it waslike at 16 and 17 and hear a
dream and speak into it.
Um, but I, this is what Ilearned many, many years ago.
Now I'm a full on adult.
I'm I'm preparing a televisionshow on the sci-fi networks of
dreams or everything and, and amanager at the time.
(13:03):
And she said, you know, Michael,you're gonna have to figure out
what it is you do when youinterpret a dream till you can
teach it.
Yeah.
I was like, well, actually Icried.
In that moment, cuz I wasoverwhelmed at the question cuz
it just felt like, well it justfeels like a crazy, I don't
know.
Yeah.
But I started watching what washappening in my mind and in my
(13:24):
thoughts and in my voice when Iheard and then responded to a
dream, the dream is just a storyit's being told in the language
of symbols.
I'm hearing the symbols and I'mgoing immediately to what the
universal sensibility might bearound that symbol based on what
(13:45):
it is, what it does, what itsuse is, what its essence is
like.
If somebody has a dream about arefrigerator, it's not their
refrigerator in the kitchen,it's their dreaming.
It's the idea of being able topreserve.
Because that's what arefrigerator does.
It helps us preserve our food.
(14:06):
Right.
Right.
So that's its essence that's itsuse.
So then that gives it itsmeaning that isn't that thing in
the refrigerator.
That's probably yellow and wellI'm aging, myself, avocado green
refrigerators.
We're a big thing in the, yeah.
You know what I'm saying?
So, um, I can do that with adream so fast that by the time
(14:28):
you're telling it to me, I amalready vibing with what's the
meaning behind the meaning?
Like what's the I'm holding herea glass.
Well, it's a cut.
It's a.
Actually made out of copper, acopper copper of water, right?
Yeah.
So the use of this thing is ithelps me sustain myself.
It allows me to draw to me whatI need for life force, water
(14:51):
mm-hmm mm-hmm So if the cup isbroken in the dream, then the
dream is about your inability tohelp yourself or access what you
need.
For sustenance of life.
Right?
So my gift isn't that I knowthings that you don't know, it's
just that I can do this so fastin this kind of quantum place.
(15:11):
That isn't my conscious thinkingthat by the time you have
finished telling me your dream,I can tell you the story behind
the story based on how universalwisdom speaks to and through me.
Got it.
francene (15:28):
Crazy.
Like, so I, and this is ahundred percent why I reached
out every time I have a dream inthe morning, I will wake up.
I will wake my husband up andI'm like, oh my gosh, I dreamed
about blah, blah, blah.
And then I will instantly Googleit.
But sometimes when it's sospecific, you know, things like,
oh, um, oh my God, what's likethe classic one.
(15:49):
Like your teeth are falling out.
It doesn't necessarily, it's notsymbolic of your teeth, but
isn't it do with money.
Your teeth?
michael (15:56):
Well, that's an interesting thought, like right
here.
Yeah.
Let's go with that idea.
Cause I certainly heard this.
I, I call'em superstitions.
Yeah.
That the superstitiousinterpretation of teeth falling
out is about money or losingresources.
Yes.
That's an old cultural idea thatprobably came out of some
cultural likes, you know, uh,uh, uh, you know, you can't,
(16:21):
it's a politically incorrectterm to use the term wives tale.
I try to.
Say that, but superstitiouscultural ideas, you know, a
yellow bird means yourmother-in-law is coming.
Yeah, I, I actually read that inan, a, in a very old dream
dictionary, like pre psychology.
Yeah.
Yellow bird.
Mother-in-laws visiting.
(16:42):
Oh, God.
Right.
So I think there are a lot ofmeanings that come from those
cultural sort of perspectives.
Yeah.
But the way I work and approachuniversal meaning is, well, what
do your teeth do?
Well, first of all, they aid indigestion.
They're the first line ofbreaking down food.
So you can be sustained andnurtured.
(17:02):
Yeah.
They attract love.
Mm-hmm reveal them in a smileand love comes back to.
So just right there, sustenanceand nurturing self and
attracting love.
If you can't do that, then yourdream is reflecting a kind of an
insecurity of not being able tocare herself or draw in love.
(17:26):
And because the teeth arelocated.
In the mouth and the mouth isthe point through which our
voice emerges.
And our voice is how we expressour sovereignty and power in the
world.
Yeah.
Than anything that's connectedto the mouth is also gonna
reflect your relationship to howyou are speaking up for
yourself, setting boundaries anddeclaring who you are, not
(17:49):
through your voice.
So it could be a money dream,but I doubt it.
It's probably a dream aboutfeeling insecure and needing to
recognize that there's more sortof groundedness and strength
required in how you relate totaking care of yourself that
your needs are met, attractinglove and speaking your truth.
(18:11):
Do
francene (18:11):
you think if more people.
Kinda listen to your point.
If you wake up in the morningand you know, whatever the dream
is, you cuz I will alsosometimes write it down in my
notes.
Cause you forget it so quickly.
Yeah.
I'll write it down and think,okay.
What, what were the main things?
And then I try and think.
I don't know.
(18:31):
I feel like sometimes it's likea guide to your life that you're
not thinking about.
So you mentioned like health, sodo you think sometimes your
dreams are.
Trying to kind of give youwarning or draw your attention
to something and how many peoplejust ignore it.
michael (18:49):
Yeah.
Um, I love this question and Iwanna speak into, there's a,
kind of, a bunch of complexideas that you're actually
putting on the table.
One is this outside of what Ican do in interpreting dreams,
that feels like a God-given giftto me and that the people who I
share it with go, oh my God.
And by now at 58 years old,having done it since I was 18, I
(19:13):
have a lot of experience withthat.
So I trust that to be.
Yes.
But at the end of the day, yourjob with your dreams is not to
figure out what they mean.
Now that might be a littleironic coming from somebody who
has an ability to hear yourdream and tell you what I think
(19:33):
it means.
Right, right, right.
That is my gift.
And so I learn around theplanet.
Utilizing my gift because it'smy gift.
In fact, I got a lot of flack ingrad school because in, in, as a
trained therapist, you'retrained, never to touch people's
dreams.
Oh, really?
Why?
Why is that?
Oh, because of this principle,the dream is sacred.
The dream belongs to thedreamer.
(19:54):
You do not wanna.
Can I curse?
Yes.
Yeah.
You do not wanna fuck with that.
at all.
So it would go a little bit likethis people, you know,
professors professionaltherapists would say, oh, no
one, you should never interpreta dream of a client.
And I would say, you're right.
You never, should.
(20:16):
You never should.
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
But I ain't gonna stoppracticing my God-given gift.
The, the challenge in that isyou might hear me interpret a
dream and say, oh, the bestthing to do with the dream is
know what it means definitively.
Mm.
Yeah.
But it, but the opposite is so,so when I'm teaching or doing
(20:39):
workshops, even though I'mshowing you what my gift looks
like, I'm also trying to makesure that people understand that
really your dreams are justlike.
A mother at the pool with hereight year old, who wants to
jump in and say, Hey, ma lookAnd the kid jumps in and mom is
(21:02):
like, huh.
Then she goes back to her bookor Cosmo and like has to do it
again.
10 minutes later when the eightyear old is like, ma look and
it's the same thing.
Right?
Let our dreams are a little likethat.
They're like a part of us thatjust want to be related.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And they come from ourunconscious.
(21:22):
And when you relate to them, youare relating to yourself in the
most intimate way a person canrelate to themselves.
Mm-hmm through considering whatthe unconscious is expressing.
Yep.
So when you write down a dream,because you know that in the
ether, it will be gone.
That's dream work.
(21:43):
That alone increases the ongoingdialogue between conscious and
unconscious mind.
That happens every night whenyou're asleep.
Yeah.
It's every night, honey, youmight remember a dream every
five nights.
Yeah.
But every single night you'reunconscious and your conscious
mind are relating to each other.
And we wake up wiser and smarterbecause of our dream.
(22:07):
You know, we're learning in theREM state data.
Like when you learn, like you,you study calculus during the
day, you spend more time in REMsleep at night, that's proven in
the lab because your mind isdownloading the data and turning
it into short term memory.
Right.
I think the same thing is saidabout wisdom, like in, you know,
(22:28):
smarts intelligence is about thethings, you know, mm-hmm, wisdom
is about how you take what, youknow, and turned it into better.
francene (22:35):
Yes, ideally, right?
Yes.
Ideally
michael (22:39):
but yes.
So every night we visit with ourunconscious and wake up the next
day wiser.
And it's through the dreamprocess.
I believe that that happens.
Yeah.
So if you write down your dream,you've already lifted up that
mechanism.
(22:59):
to a higher level.
Mm-hmm if you then share thatdream with another human being
your poor husband every
francene (23:05):
morning.
Yeah, I know.
I know.
I wanna say, I tell the amountof random stuff.
I, uh, I, I tell him, but,
michael (23:12):
but you understand that's dream work.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Like it may even be.
Innocuous and silly.
I'm telling my I'm nudging myhusband and annoying him with my
dream.
And I'm sure he has a funny wayof talking about this when
you're having dinner with otherpeople.
Yeah.
but that's elevating yourexperience of something that's
(23:34):
very intimate inside of you.
Yeah, true.
You know, and then if you do anywork on it, that's further than
that by marinating ruminating orwriting or journaling or
thinking or Googling.
Googling is good.
Yeah.
That can lead to some good,valuable information.
Not always, sometimes sometimes.
Absolutely.
And, um, then if you take it formy money, the top way to respond
(23:58):
to a dream is.
You know, the dream is speakingto you in the language of
symbol.
Why not speak back to yourunconscious in the language of
symbol?
So you can write about it andtalk about it.
But if you sit down with yourcrayons and draw a little
picture of the scene from thedream, now you're cooking with
gas.
Now you're unconscious is gonnareceive the imprint of that
(24:20):
symbolic expression.
You've just created with yourimagination and your creativity
and your crayons and go, oh,should paying attention.
Let's give us some moreinformation through the dream
state.
And then the whole thing risesup, gets a little bit more.
Oh, wow.
francene (24:36):
I'm a hundred percent gonna try that.
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