Ep 76 But What is Heaven? - Exploring the Real Vivid Depictions of Heaven Throughout the Bible - Real Bible Stories - A Bible Study Podcast

Episode Transcript
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Imran (00:05):
Hello and welcome to Real Bible Stories.
Join us as we deep dive intothe historic, religious,
cultural, political andemotional context surrounding
the real lives of real people inthe Bible and the stories we've
all grown to love.
Hello and welcome back to RealBible Stories.

(00:25):
I'm your host, emron Ward, andwe are joined by my wife, selena
.

Selena (00:28):
Hey.

Imran (00:29):
We're your teacher for this week, pastor David Squires.
Hello, so we've been going downthe rabbit hole with the story
behind the story, which isreally just real Bible stories
at its absolute core and reallytaking apart the Bible and
trying to tease out some of thenuance of different characters
and different concepts withinthe Word, and it's been an

(00:49):
absolute journey for me.
I will also include that it hasalso been an absolute journey
at work right now.
So I'm sorry these episodeshave been coming out slower as
I'm grinding through all of myday-to-day stuff, but we will
get it all out there to you all,at least at the most every week
, and then sometimes I'm delayedif it's not every week, but

(01:12):
that's on me, I'm working it.
But this week, what's your work?
Tell them what you do.
Oh, they know what I do.
I talk about it all the time.
I take care of everyone's themothers what do you call it?

Pastor David (01:26):
The sons and daughters of America, the
Emirates and Marine Captain,you've got a cool job.

Imran (01:31):
The world's greatest babysitter.
The world's most combat trainbabysitter.

I know you guys have all your little lines that
demean what you do.
You eat crayons.
I know I hear it all.
No, it's pretty awesome.

Imran (01:41):
Yeah, so I guess my job right now is to be the company
executive officer of my company,the headquarters company within
my battalion here at theschoolhouse.
So I wear a lot of hats.
In addition to that, so day today I'm mostly managing the
Marines awaiting trainingpopulation, so that's anywhere
between 300 and 400 Marines atany given point, and I'm also

(02:03):
managing our maintenance sectionand our logistics section as
the OIC for them and I write onand want to say write on.
I manage the personnel of acouple other sections within the
battalion as well and it's justa lot of different hats.
It's like we're having apersonnel shortage and so I've
accumulated more responsibilityon my plate to allow the

(02:24):
instructors to have more of thetime and space to be instructors
.
Because when I was an instructorfor two years, anytime company
or battalion came over the topand was like I need you to do
this thing in addition toinstruction, it really robbed
the my students from the time Icould have spent with them.
So I in turn, now that I'm in aposition of leadership and a
position of influence, I try totake on more of that stuff

(02:46):
myself or push it back tobattalion or company to do and
try to take as much as I can offof the plate of the instructor,
because I think that that isour ticket to success, and so
that's kind of just my big push.
So taking care of Marines isthe name of the game at every
level, especially within theofficer's community.

(03:07):
So yeah, that's what I do.

I almost said amen like we're in church Amen, amen
.
Yeah, I mean this is anaffirmation agreement.

Imran (03:15):
It's preach Marine preach .
I was giving some feedback tothe it's like my last class of
students that I had.
They had done this big briefand I was giving them feedback
of like how they couldarticulate their point more
clearly, how they could engagewith people in the audience.
Eye contact, helping people,like making people stay awake by
doing little things, like youknow, walking up towards them

(03:35):
while you're speaking because,like there's these subconscious
things that happen in your headand you're like someone's coming
towards me, the person that'sin charge of me is coming
towards me, or stuff like that.
And I was going on and tellingmy story and my big voice, your
teaching voice kind of way, andat the end I asked my peers that
were my co-instructors you knowhow was that and one of them

(03:56):
said it's like man, you werepreaching.
That was how he described it, hewas like man when you get going
.
Man, you were preaching.

See, I was a preacher.
I like that the height ofpublic speaking is to preach.

Imran (04:06):
Yeah, exactly Like that was his the highest compliment
he had.
He was like.

Only you weren't delivering the word of God, you
were delivering the word of theMarine Corps.

Imran (04:12):
Exactly, or just how to be better officers.
That's it.
That's what I was.

I know we're going to get to our subject in just a
minute.
It is kind of cool we tape onthe Marine base and it's kind of
cool that we come driving onevery week onto a Marine base,
which is awesome.

Imran (04:28):
Absolutely.

You forget how awesome it is because you live
here, work here, but this is acool base Right over those hills
.
Over there there's maneuvershappening that will defend the
United States and our forces.

Imran (04:41):
And it's been doing it for a couple hundred years.
This is actually a hugemonument right off base here,
because this base used to bebigger.
It used to extend maybe another20, 30 miles up to 62.
And there's a monument.
I rode my motorcycle out tothat monument and it says on
there that first Marine divisiontrained here, second Marine
division, and that's where theyused to do division size

(05:01):
exercises with the Army, and sothe Army gave the base to the
Marines and we scaled it backbecause obviously we don't need
to do division on divisionreally level operations because
we don't have that many peoplein the Marine Corps, not like
the Army employees, like five orsix times amount of people we
do.
but it's crazy to think that,like all of that during World
War two, vietnam era, was, was,was being used as well.

(05:24):
All that empty desert.

The Army abandoned 29 palms.
Yeah, it's not habitable.

Imran (05:29):
And so the Marine.

Corps is like we could torture people here.

Imran (05:32):
Exactly, and now because of had it ever since, like the
last 50 or 60 years.

It's perfect.
It's perfect for training fordesert warfare.
What?

Imran (05:38):
are we talking about?
Oh man, we are in fact, thepodcast about, about our Lord
and Savior, jesus Christ.
So, getting back to the,getting back to the point we are
going to be talking this weekabout, instead of a person, a
concept, so the concept ofheaven as described in the Bible
.
We I bet you all have thesedifferent ideas in your head of

(06:00):
what heaven is, what it's goingto be, what it looks like.
You know who you're going tosee, what you're going to do,
what can you be able to do, whatare you not going to be able to
do?
And so the question is like,the more interesting question
that I have is like well, whatare the limitations of my
ability to do things in heaven?
All right, it's like, well,there's no sin.
It's like, well, you know,there's a lot, there's a lot

(06:21):
there that I've always hadquestions about and, to a
certain extent, I'll say that Ihave a lot of anxiety about.
We've seen, I've seen me havelike panic attacks about, like,
what's next?

The afterlife is such an important topic that
we're going to spend multipleweeks talking about heaven and
what is heaven and what's thenew earth, and what does the
Bible actually tell us.

Imran (06:45):
Well, I'm excited to go through that and if you know, if
I have a panic attack, we'lljust cut that out.
No one will ever know.

They won't know, they won't know, they won't know
.
Captain Ward was flat on the.

Imran (06:57):
It's like the concept of going to war and doing all the
things that we're going to dohas never freaked me out.
I think it's super cool, butthe the finality of life and the
level of faith that's requiredis if, if I have faith that when
I pull the trigger my gun'sgoing to work and it's like I
know, I need to have that samefaith in my, in what comes after

(07:17):
this life, because that'sguaranteed.

Selena (07:19):
Yeah.

Imran (07:19):
All right, that's like eventually going to happen.
And have a bully, that's goingto happen, unless you know the
rapture happens, scott, becauseback and he takes me up directly
, it's like but it's going tohappen, and there's a lot of at
least for me, a lot of anxiety.
That's there and I know otherpeople struggle with that too.

We're looking tonight at really the first
glimpse you're going to have ofheaven.
What are some of the firstthings you're going to see when
you step in from this body intoglory?
What is it you're going to see?
And we're just taking a look atsome different views of the end
and within what Jesus says.
But if you, if you have a BibleJohn 14, selena is going to

(07:54):
read this.
John 14, one to six isphenomenal.

Selena (07:59):
Do not let your heart be troubled.
You believe in God.
Believe also in me.
My father's house has manyrooms.
If that were not so, would Ihave told you that I am going
there to prepare a place for you.
And if I go and prepare a placefor you, I will come back and
take you to be with me that youalso may be where I am.

(08:20):
You know the way to the placewhere I'm going.
Thomas said to him Lord, wedon't know where you are going,
so how can we know the way?
Jesus answered I am the way andthe truth and the life.
No one comes to the fatherexcept through me.
If you really know me, you willknow my father as well From now

(08:41):
on.
You do.
You do know him and have seenhim.

The doctrine of heaven falls into a section of
what we call doctrinallyeschatology.
Eschatology is the study oflast things, so eschatology
would include that's a cool word, isn't it?

Selena (08:56):
The study of last things .

It belongs on a podcast about real Bible stories
Eschatology.

Imran (09:01):
Oh my gosh.

So we're about to do a whole series on eschatology
Okay, Love it which wouldinclude heaven, hell, the second
coming, the resurrection of thedead.
It would include the rapture,the tribulation, the millennium,
the end of the world, thejudgment, new heaven, new earth.
All of those things are part ofwhat we define as eschatology.
That's what it is, that sectionof of scripture.
So what we're doing is we'regoing to be looking at questions

(09:26):
like you know what's the futureof heaven?
What happens?
Is heaven just always the same,or is there something coming?
What are you going to see first?
What's your new body going tobe like?
What happens when a child dies?
What's our relationship when weget to?

Imran (09:39):
heaven with each other.
We're going to answer all thosequestions.
I just sound like we could allfit that in this one episode.
No no no, we're doing this fora while.
Oh, okay, I'm like, oh my,that's a lot.

Yeah, that's a lot of questions that people
definitely have.
Like, here's going to be aquestion you guys will have is
so, when we get to heaven,emirate and Selena, are you guys
married or are you?
I mean, what's yourrelationship?

Imran (09:56):
It's said till death, do us part, and so I assume we're
not married, actually, rememberwe'll do a whole podcast on it
Okay.
So, yeah, we'll save it tillthen.
Yeah, but let's look at this.

Talking about that what I hope happens.
I hope out of this you justfall more in love with Jesus.
I hope that out of this youfall a little bit out of love
with this world.
This world's going to burn andthat the thought of heaven and
the theology of heaven isn'tjust a static thing.
That's out there, that okay,now I understand heaven better.
I hope you're understanding ofheaven, what's your appetite,

(10:27):
and you become thirsty andhungry for heaven and out of
that you're like well, I can'twait to see, jesus, that you
fall a little deeper in lovewith the, with the Lord.
Out of this, I love that.

Imran (10:37):
All right.
So what's our first point?

What happens when we die?
Good theology.

Imran (10:42):
That's an aggressive first point.

It is aggressive, isn't it All right?

Imran (10:45):
It used to be how they're going to start with.
What's heaven?
No, no, no.
Well, what happens when you?
It's how it's how we used tointroduce the gospel to people.

When you knock on doors, be like if you were to
die today.
Do you know?
Like whoa we just met.

Imran (10:57):
It's like, do I know where I'd go?
It's like I don't even knowwhat I have for breakfast this
morning.
What are we talking about rightnow?

A good theology removes fear.
And when you, when we're honestabout it, a lot of people are
scared of death.
We're scared of the fact thatwe are mortal.
In fact, hebrews, chapter two,verse 15, says that Jesus died
to free those who, all theirlives, were held in the slavery
to the fear of death.

Imran (11:21):
There's actually a.
I don't know if he's just amultimillionaire, a billionaire,
but I'll get his name by theend of the podcast but he, he is
dedicated.
Once he sold his business andgot his like hundred million or
whatever, he has dedicated hisentire, the entirety of his
wealth, to living as long aspossible.
That's right and that is andthat is his stated goal is

(11:41):
finding out how to basicallylive forever, because he's
scared of death.

But it's not just that people are scared of death,
which is true.
They're scared.
They're kind of scared ofheaven.
They're scared that heaven'sgoing to be boring or, you know,
scared that there's going to behanging out on a cloud.
Our cultural pictures of heavenhave not encouraged people so
they've not given a lot of hope.
We're scared that we're goingto get to heaven.
It's just a long church service.

Imran (12:04):
Like a thousand year church service.
Yeah, like I.

Well, okay, I don't want to go and people kind
of joke like why'd rather hangout in the hell where there's a
party than heaven.
You know, some people havedeeper fears.
They're scared of dying andstanding before God scared, so
there's just a fear of death.
I do love what Hebrews saidJesus died to set free all those
who are held in slavery to thefear of death.
You don't have to be enslavedto this.

(12:29):
This is good doctrine.
Some views just what I got hereabout five, five views of what
happens when we die.
Number one view is what we calleternal oblivion, or cessation,
that you just cease to exist.
You're like a candle, that justand you're out.

Imran (12:46):
Yeah, you.
Just I think it's like the big,the atheist perspective.

It is.

Imran (12:50):
It's your biological creature, and so when your
biology ends, that's the end ofthat Secular humanism goes that
same route, or nihilism.

What's nihilism I?

Imran (13:00):
think nihilism is worse than that, because so nihilism
is not that when I die I justdie.
It's that because when I die, Ijust die.
Therefore, nothing I do todayhas any impact or matters at all
.

Exactly.

Imran (13:15):
And so nihilism kind of goes into, like I can take
advantage of who I want, and Ishould take advantage of who and
what I can, because it's allabout me, because nothing else
matters except me.

Selena (13:29):
Why are you not even?

Imran (13:29):
except me it's just nothing Like I don't even matter
.
So, therefore, why are you evenbothering me about it?

Selena (13:33):
Yeah, Kind of reminds me of the movie we watched
recently Everything, Everythingeverywhere all at once.

Imran (13:40):
Yeah, where the villain is like nothing matters yeah, so
that's an interesting point,because the whole point of that
movie is the it's two.
It's two women who have theability to see all versions of
reality at the same time, andone of them comes to the
conclusion is that becauseanything is possible, it nothing
matters.
Like I could very well,anything I do could go any way

(14:04):
and does go any way, because allpossibilities exist at the same
time.
Therefore nothing matters.
And the other one is like well,because everything that I do
can lead to any other reactionand will lead to any other
reaction than everything that Ido matters.

Selena (14:19):
Wow, so it's these two extremes that that yeah, so this
movie called everything,everywhere, all at once.

Wow.

Imran (14:26):
It's a fantastic thought.
It's on the surface.
It's a really like kooky movie,but on the subsurface it has an
extremely good psychologicaldiscussion of like you can
choose to care or not.

You know those movies where you don't really
get it where you're watching it.
You have to leave the theaterand an hour later, where you're
eating, you're like.

Imran (14:44):
Oh, that was deep.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So number one view out there that's actually
popular today is that there'snothing when you die.
You just cease to exist.
Yeah, another view this ispopular among Catholics in
particular as purgatory that youdon't go to heaven or hell when
you die.
You go to a place between theplaces, and purgatory is the
place where you pay for yoursins.
So you go there and nobody goesimmediately to heaven or hell

(15:12):
or hell.
You go to purgatory, and inpurgatory in fact you hear it in
the word purge purgatory you'repurged of your sins.
So for thousands and thousandsand thousands of years you're
there being tortured.
And then the idea became,especially in the middle ages
well, if you're good, andespecially if you pay the church
money, you can take time off ofpurgatory.

Imran (15:33):
Yeah.

And so if you do these things for the saints, if
you kind of torture yourself onearth, you remove the torture in
the next life.

Imran (15:39):
It also carried.
So I'm just bringing up what mychaplain, when I was deployed he
was Catholic would talk aboutlike you, your family, like once
you died and you're in thatpurgatory, your family can pay
as well to reduce it's like, hey, this is going to reduce the
time on your mother's purgatorytime, or you could pray to the

(16:01):
saints and they'll intercede onyour behalf and they can reduce
that time as well, becausethey'll go and talk with Jesus
and God about your mom'ssituation or your dad's
situation and reduce that time.
So it wasn't just things youdid, it was also you could
influence your families or yourfriends.

Selena (16:19):
How did that even come to be Like?
Is it just purely money driven?

It is the fear of telling people hey, heaven and
hell are real.
Well.
What if we created an in-brewteam place like a wedding room
and it does kind of keep yougood, you don't want to go.
If we tell everybody they'regoing to heaven then they might
be bad on earth, and so what ifwe created an in-between place
where you're going to bepunished?
The problem with that is it'santi-gospel.

Imran (16:43):
The gospel is not that it probably merges with other old
things, other old religions, andthey didn't just listen to what
Jesus said to you.

but I'd have to explore that the gospel is not
that I go to purgatory and payfor my sins.
The gospel is that Jesus diedon the cross and he paid for my
sins, so there's nothing leftfor me to pay for.
Yeah, what would I pay for inpurgatory?
So it's really a reversal ofthe gospel that now you have to,
by behavior, be good or we'regoing to send you this place,

(17:10):
purgatory, and you're going tobe tortured and it creates a
merit system.

Imran (17:15):
Which flies in the face of God dying for your sins in
the first place?
It does, doesn't it?

Another view is called reincarnation, which is
more of an Eastern thought.
Very, very popular.
Multiple religions followreincarnation.

Imran (17:27):
Does Buddhist follow reincarnation it?

does Most Eastern religions follow some.
And you can mix those.
Those Eastern religions oftenmix together, but they follow it
.

Imran (17:39):
That's true, because it's like Jews, where it's like a
people and a religion.

I would ask if, if reincarnation is real, if you
come back, it would require aGod above it all organizing that
mess.
Who's organizing it?
Who decides who goes where what?
Souls come out, wouldn't thatrequire a God that's overseas.
Somebody has to oversee theafterlife.

Selena (17:57):
Yeah, there has to be a judge If there's a judge.

The judge did speak up and he did not tell us
there was reincarnation.
There's a book called the Countof Monte Cristo where this
guy's digging out of his prisoncell and so he's digging,
digging, digging, he finallygets a hole, he drops and he
just goes, he drops into anotherprison cell and that's kind of
reincarnation, like you die andyou just come back here, back to
the prison.

Imran (18:20):
It doesn't offer a lot of hope, but you can come back as
like an aunt, or you can bereally really good and come back
as like a bird or somethinglike that.
Like I think that's the logic.
It's like be really good hereand your chakras are aligned and
all this stuff and you'll beable to come back.

It connects to another faith system which is
actually devil worship, Satanworship.
I had a friend, his name's Pete.
He was out on the battlefield.
This is Iraq.
This guy is all shot up.
He goes into the tent to see tohis friend and he goes I've
heard you're a devil worshiper,so what do you guys believe?
And the guy who's shot up goes.
Well, we believe that if weserve Satan well on earth, that

(18:58):
he'll let us come back.
And Pete said I couldn't helpit.
I look at this guy, all bloodiedup, he's got bullets in him,
shrapnel in him.
It wasn't good, he said.
I looked at him and I just wentdude, you want to come back to
this?
Is there a better opening forthe gospel?
This is it.
You're going to serve Satan tocome back here and get shot up
again?

(19:18):
Yeah, that's wild, yeah.
Another view is called soulsleep and it's the idea that the
soul, when you die, your souljust kind of passes out at
sleeps until the second comingof Jesus, and so when Jesus
comes again, he raises the deadand your souls are brought back.
So then there's no heaven,there's just the new earth at

(19:39):
that point Correct, that there'sno present heaven, that the
that.
Well, there's heaven that God'sin in that view, and there's
the angels.

Imran (19:45):
But the dead do not go to heaven, they just rest and
heaven's in the face of uspetitioning from beneath the
throne imagery that's inRevelation it does Revelation,
chapter six, very good.

Selena (19:57):
Thank you, I pay attention, I'm proud of you.

Imran (20:01):
Yeah, you've been working on me for like two and a half
years.
I hope I learned something.

What Jesus promised us was eternal life,
which is life without end orlife without a pause.
It's not.
Hey, I'll give you eternal life.
Pause.
Eternal life, you havesalvation.
Pause, you'll be dead for awhile, and then that's not the
promise, that eternal life islife without end, which is what
Jesus offered to me and to you.
So, yeah, I love that.

(20:27):
I'm trying.
I've not wanted to skip thestory that you were excited
about.

Imran (20:33):
Oh, what With my buddy?
Yeah, oh, the Nihilus.
Oh, I'm.
Yeah, you're right, sorry.
So I was telling him that I wasgoing to tell him about my buddy
, who was a, who was a Nihilusand an Atheist in college, and
we would.
But the reason I brought him upis we would go back and forth
about Christianity all the timeand he was extremely well read
with the Bible.

(20:53):
He just rejected it completelyand so but I wasn't that well
that well read at all at thetime and our back and forth.
So it actually challenged me togo and like study my faith and
actually gain some moreunderstanding.
So it was invigorating in thatway.
But at the same time, I neverreally was able to convince him
or change his mind or anythinglike that, which is not really

(21:14):
the intent is just we would havethe conversation.
I also was not in a good placeto be an example for the kingdom
either at the time, but heended up dropping out of our
NRTC program and going to be aparole officer for a while and
then he ended up getting anotherjob working as a prison guard
and as a prison guard.
I just found this out like ayear, like a year later, after

(21:37):
this happened, he got caught upwith like dealing drugs in the
prison and then they got and hegot caught, convicted and went
back to that prison.

The same prison.
He was a guard, yeah, and thenI haven't heard from him since.

Imran (21:49):
Oh, it's like that is absolutely insane.
I hope he's all right.
I hope that was the wake upcall and a good chaplain or a
pastor finds him in there andworks on him, but like man this
is like absolutely wild.
But yeah, that was his wholeperspective like nothing matters
and it's like everything thatI've read just further proves
that none of this matters and Iwas like that's crazy dude.

Wow, four views so far eternal oblivion, purgatory
reincarnation, soul sleep.
What the Bible teaches is theBible teaches resurrection into
eternal life immediately.
And so Luke 22, 40 to 43, jesuswas dying on the cross.
He was speaking to a thief.
The thief made a clearstatement of faith Jesus,

(22:33):
remember me when you come intoyour kingdom.
And Jesus said I tell you thetruth, this day you'll be with
me in paradise.
That is, you're gonna move fromthis cross into heaven.
You're not gonna wait, you'renot gonna.
There's not a soul sleep.
You're not gonna go topurgatory.
This day you'll be with me inparadise.
Sometimes people will putchange to the comma on that, and

(22:54):
so they read it this way I tellyou, this day you'll be in
paradise.
But I think it's the easiest.
The only reason you would putthe comma there is you don't
want the other side of that tosay what it says.
So you just like well, if Iread it a little different.
But the clear meaning is todaywe are gonna see one another
again and it will be in paradise.

(23:17):
But that's not the only versethat this doctrine hangs on.
Second Corinthians 5a says yousee it there, selena.

Selena (23:24):
We would rather be away from the body and at home with
the Lord.

So he says to be away from the body isn't to be
in the grave, it's not soulsleep, it's not purgatory, paul
said.
I believe that for me not to bein the body, is to be with the
Lord.
Yeah, even more important,matthew 22, 32,.
Jesus was arguing withSadducees and he said something
obviously brilliant because it'sGod on earth, but he starts

(23:49):
talking to them about right.
When you're talking about God onearth, it's gonna be good.
He starts talking about Mosesat the burning bush.
It was just exciting becauseJesus was there and he said
remember, god said to Moses atthe burning bush I am the God of
Abraham, isaac and Jacob.
His point is that God did notsay I was the God of Abraham.
He's able to say I am the Godof Abraham.

(24:12):
The reason he can say that.
And then Jesus even said this.
He said, therefore, he's notthe God of the dead, he's not
the God of the living.
When Jesus said it, abraham wasdead.
When Moses was there, abrahamwas already dead, but God didn't
say I was the God of Abraham,because Abraham was already
alive and in heaven with God.
Jesus point is that at thatmoment, abraham was alive.

(24:33):
Thus, god is the God of Abraham, not was the God of Abraham.

Selena (24:39):
Isn't that brilliant?

Yeah, that's good, that's like God on earth.
Good, I would never come upwith that.
That's Jesus.

Imran (24:45):
You don't have to answer this question now, because the
Bible talk it all about.
Well, what happened to thosethat died before the promise was
given?

It does?
What does it say?
I think that those who diedbefore you're talking about
before the cross.

Imran (25:02):
No, no, no before Abraham , like those that died before
Abraham was given the originalpromise, god has always counted
faith based on what youunderstand at that time.

So we believe in progressive revelation
Interesting the faith that youhave at that time to be
satisfactory for salvation.
And so they had faith, lookingforward as best they could.
They didn't see all, but theyput their faith in God.
Abraham believed God and it wascredited to him as
righteousness.
They looked forward to thecross.
We look back at the cross.

(25:35):
Obviously we can have a greaterfaith, but for those that were
after Adam and Eve, but beforeAbraham.
They did have a promise.
They had the promise in Genesis, chapter three, verse 16 or 15,
which was the promise that adeliverer would come and rescue
them and they had the sacrificeof blood, and already, by Cain

(25:56):
and Abel, they're sacrificingtheir.
So they have put their hope inGod.
It's just throughout the Bible.
The hope gets clear and clearand clear as you get closer to
Jesus, and then it explodes withclarity, and so we can look
back and have a very clear faith.
There's a sense that there's ahigher expectation on us because
so we've been given such aclear view of what salvation is

(26:18):
that we believe, as Paul said.
Now God commands men everywhereto repent, to put their faith
in Christ.

Imran (26:25):
Makes sense, so I can give you all the tools.
I've shown you who I am.

You already mentioned one of the great views
you nailed it, revelationchapter six, is if you don't die
and go to heaven, then how arethere souls under an altar in?

Imran (26:38):
heaven, yeah, petitioning of what was it?
Why do you still allow the?
Why so much longer?
How much longer before youavenge?

our, our blood.
Yeah, I wanted to emphasizethis, that heaven's a real place
.
So the verse you read a momentago Selena, in my father's house
are many rooms.
The Greek is a topos place inmy father's house.
Here I go to prepare a topos aplace for you, and then he says

(27:08):
it again in verse three I'mgoing to prepare a topos a place
for you.
We assume physical things arereal things In the Bible.
Spiritual things are realthings.
We think the spiritual thingsit's too.
I can't touch it, I can't seeit, it can't be real.
The Bible says maybe thespiritual things are?
Are what's more real than thephysical Interesting Right when

(27:28):
someone dies?
I've been with many people whenthey died.

Imran (27:34):
That's a reality of pastoral leadership, right.

So I've been with many people in many
circumstances.
When they die, I would say thatyou are very aware at that
moment that there was more tothat person.
When you see them go from aliving being to being a corpse,
in those short few minutes thatthe last breath has breathed,
the body dramatically changes.
And it's not just that deathbegins to move into the body.

(27:58):
Everything that animated thebody disappears.
There was more to that personthan just the electronics of the
eyes.
There was more than just thebreath going in and out.
There was something thatanimates the human being.
That makes us that.
You're aware there's more tothis than just the flesh.
Yeah, you know.

Imran (28:18):
I like that there was a.
This would be hard to explainin like 10 seconds, but there
was this book that I was reading, the manga that I was reading a
long time ago that it went downthe rabbit hole of this.
Alien race had sufficienttechnology where they could
completely destroy your body andthen completely put it back
together and you would bebiologically unchanged from what

(28:42):
you were Completely just takeyou apart to like a atomic level
and then put you back together.

That starts like beaming no.
No, I mean like you'd be dead.

Imran (28:50):
They killed you and they would put you back together and
you would be back to life.
And so one of the questionsthat came up in it that someone
asked this alien race, one ofthe humans asked this alien race
was like is there so what is so?
Is there a soul?
And the alien race respondedafter they had this back and
forth is like well, there isthis.
When we put for some reason,when we put people back together
after doing this to them, theyhave like point zero, whatever,

(29:13):
like some measurable amount oftheir who they are is gone, and
so the thing that they'reputting back together is, for
some reason, different than thething that they destroyed,
something was lost.
Something was lost when theykilled them.

That's observable, Like you can sit there and
watch somebody die and you'reaware like if they were sleeping
versus dead, you're aware thatsomething that animated them a
moment ago is gone.
The corpse is dramaticallydifferent than the living being.
But we think the physical thingis the real and you realize,
well, there was something morereal than this physical body

(29:47):
that was inside this body.
This body was just a containerfor what was actually real.
Yeah, Inside of you, inside ofyou is more something real than
just that body, which is yoursoul, your, your mean it's weird
to think of myself as like alike just blood guts.

Imran (30:03):
That somehow sitting here talking yeah, and it's like how
is?
How is that?

We're deeply aware , we're innately aware that
there's more to us.

Imran (30:12):
But we don't think about like, what makes us up and like
and what makes up a human being,and like why?
How does that come?
How does that manifest thought?
How does that manifest actionsLike?

that's very so theologically, we call that the
amakyo day, which is that we aremade in the image of God and
that God breathed soul into us.
He breathed life into Adam andhe breathed life into us, and so
life is the extension.
Jesus said I am life, all lifeis the extension of God.
I'll be careful to not becomepantheism, but there I didn't

(30:47):
say that's.

Selena (30:48):
That's kind of hard for me to conceptualize, because in
In heaven we will be spirits butwhen heaven comes down to earth
will gain a physical body again.
So we'll be able to do physical, like physical stuff again.
But heaven is like how we likeplaying instruments and worship

(31:11):
being, and I don't know, I don'tknow either because heaven's a
spiritual place and yet it doesdepict physical objects like you
said instruments, robes, thingslike that.

Imran (31:22):
Yeah wait.

I I filed that under wait and see.
But it's true that the betterIs that the to be together the
physical and the spiritual, andthat's why, at the resurrection
of all things, we are returnedto spirit, to physical bodies.

Imran (31:36):
I think it's also extremely difficult to describe
Spiritual things withoutrelating them to physical things
.
It's like I think you'vepreached before of like
everything that we'veexperienced in our life is life
under a curse.
Yeah so it's difficult toexplain what it was like.
And Eden before the fall,because we've never seen water
without a curse.

(31:57):
It's never seen a line withouta curse.
You've never.
It's like as much as you loveyour dog, you've never seen your
dog not under a curse.
That's right, so it's.
It's impossible.
It's like I know, I think aboutmyself and it's like man.
Who would I be as a person if Ididn't have to constantly deal
with my sinful self, like my ownsinful desires?

The two, the two beings we have seen that were
not under a curse that humanshave laid eyes on, are Angels
and the Son of God.
Angels do not rest under ourcurse and the Son of God came
into our world, but the cursedid not, did not afflict him the
same way it afflicts us.
He was greater than the curse.
Some first things we're gonnasee when we get to heaven.

(32:37):
So like, wow, there's gonna bethis great moment I step into
heaven, and I just wanted toshare, as an opener To these
weeks about heaven, what aresome of the first things you're
gonna see, because I thinkthat's good, like when I open my
eyes in heaven, I take a breath, last breath here.

Imran (32:52):
I'll tell you, like the movie, soul picks our soul.
It's just a long line of peoplewaiting for not not good
judgment.
I was just like that.
And then you know, in the moviefall off the side and has this
whole thing, but um, but it'slike the guy dies and then he's
like in a line Going up to andhe's like what is that?
And they're like it's.

(33:13):
It's like, well, I don't knowwhat that is, I don't understand
, is not what I thought, andit's like.
That's kind of how I feelsometimes.
Yeah, am I gonna be in a linewaiting to be judged?
Let's, let's do better.

I hope so.
One of the first things you'regonna see is you're gonna see
angels.
The Bible often speaks ofangels carrying us into the
presence of God.
In fact, luke 16 when a mannamed Lazarus dies not the
Lazarus that Jesus raised fromthe dead, it's the story Jesus
is telling.
When Lazarus dies, he's carriedinto the presence of God by the
angels, and angels are oftenmentioned in relation to our

(33:45):
death.
So I think one of the firstthings you'll see is angels.
It's interesting in 1956,ecuador, nick St and Elliot Were
missionaries that were killedin Ecuador by a tribe that
nobody had had ever made contactwith.
The tribe killed them.
Later, the tribe was convertedto Christianity by the wives and
the other members of thatmissionary team.

(34:07):
Wow, and so the same people wholost their husbands, those
women, went in and won the tribeto the Lord.
The tribe then told the storyof having killed the men Jim
Elliot and Nick St, and theysaid that when they died, we
heard in the treetops angelsfeet, god.
And they said we looked up andwe saw those luminous beans in

(34:29):
wow, in the trees.
Well, and I think what washappening is, as those
missionaries died a martyr'sdeath, their souls were
immediately ushered by theangels From earth into heaven.
Wow, that's intense.
It is, isn't it?
Another thing You're gonna see.
One of the first things you'llsee is not an escalator going I
love that image.
Or you gave us man that wasPixar.

(34:50):
They just think you Pixar.
But let's do better.
The Bible does better Good.
You'll see the gates of thegreat city, 2nd Peter 1 11.
Do you see that, selena?

Selena (34:59):
God will open wide the gates of heaven for you to enter
into the eternal kingdom.

So we'll see gates .
It's one of the things thatwe're.

Imran (35:07):
I have a question, yeah doesn't I say somewhere else in
the Bible that that Jesus talksabout.
The road to, the road to hellis wide and well paved, and the
road to heaven is narrow, yeah,so he's gonna open wide the
gates of heaven.

This is kind of exciting.

Imran (35:23):
I guess he's just talking about the road.
Yeah, that's true.

You're gonna see angels, you'll see the gates big
gate, you're also gonna seeother people, and that's what we
look forward to.
The Bible talks about a greatcloud of witnesses, the idea
like in heaven there's all thesepeople, that that that are
there.
We look forward to seeing them.
So John saw in heaven a greatmultitude of those that had died
.

Selena (35:44):
Mm-hmm.

There's people that we look forward to seeing.
I think there's some specialpeople that you know.
I would say that as I get older, heaven get sweeter because
there's people that I want tosee.
I've got grandparents.
I want to see my wife died.
I absolutely can't wait to seeRebecca you know, and so there's
people that it's just sweet tothink about.

(36:05):
Wow, I can't wait to see themparents, grandparents, your
spouse, your teachers.
There's an old lady in thischurch named Doris.
I can't wait to see Doris again.
There was an old man named Billvan Meter.
I can't wait to see them.
I.

Imran (36:18):
I think one of the things that makes Heaven special is
we're going to see those peoplefrom Earth again, and they're
not glory, but in their honor, Iguess, the honors that they've
displayed upon them, there's alittle bit of glory that goes
with that, I mean only God bearseternal glory, but he will
honor them.

You're also going to see heroes of the faith,
moses, elijah, the apostles.
By the way, when you go meetthe apostles, be sure to meet
Judas, not that Judas.
So hold on.
There were two disciples, I'mnot kidding.
There were two disciples namedJudas.
There was Judas who betrayedJesus.

Imran (36:53):
Judas is scary.

And then there was another guy in the Bible named
Judas not a scary.
That's his name, judas, not asscary.
You know when they were writingthe Bible and he's like, look,
be sure to tell people I'm notgoing to betray Jesus.
They're like, oh, we're puttingit in there.
Like where do you writing Notas scary?
It could come up with any.
You could have put my last namein there.
No, we're just going to callyou the one who didn't betray
Jesus.

(37:15):
Nice, we know almost nothingabout it.
Can you imagine you get toheaven.
There's a big line to see Peter, big line to see Thomas.
I'm going over there to meetJudas, not a scary.

Imran (37:25):
Absolutely.
He's got some stories.

I love who you're looking forward to seeing Selena
.
This gets easier as you getolder.

Selena (37:37):
Yeah, I was like the only actual like close death
would be my grandma, but at thatpoint she was a little bit
cookie already.
She had Alzheimer's.
I didn't really get to know her.

Imran (37:50):
I'll tell you.
I'll tell you one when I was inmiddle school, I had a friend
named Priscilla in my orchestraclass and she was killed by her
father, who was a pastor, and hekilled I think it was the
mother, my friend and her sister.
The only one that escaped wasthe son, who was able to get out

(38:12):
of a window and get over to theneighbor's house and call the
police, and then the fatherkilled himself and so the whole
school shut down.
It was a huge, the huge funeraland all that.
But it was like I sat, I playedviola and she played cello
right next to me, and then shewas just not there.
Wow, and so I would want to seeher.

(38:34):
That's just who's popped in myhead?

Wow, another thing you're going to see.
You'll see angels, you'll seethe gates, you'll see people who
have died.
You're going to see your newbody.
So you have not only your soul,but your soul will have a
spiritual body.
So you step immediately into anew body, which is a spiritual
body that's been prepared forheaven.
That spiritual body will not beburdened by the things this

(38:58):
body has been burdened by.
So can you imagine people whohave asthma?
They die and they take theirfirst breath in heaven.
And it's got to be phenomenal,wow.

Imran (39:08):
People who have glasses Wow, breathing, not under a
curse.

Those of you with glasses, which is most of us all
of a sudden, you'll just seesurgery.
People who limp are going to beable to run into God's presence
.
Can you imagine what it's goingto be like for people that are
colorblind?
Jimmy Pritchett at church iscolorblind.
That guy, I want to be close bywhen he steps into glory

(39:33):
because he will see thebrilliance of the glory of.
God, all the colors willsuddenly come luminous before
him.
People with mental slowness allof a sudden, their minds will
be set free from that which tiedthem down on earth.
There's a guy that goes to ourchurch named Robert, who has
autism.
He loves the Lord so much.
Remember one time we weretalking about heaven in small

(39:54):
group and Robert said do youthink that I will still have
autism when I get to heaven, orwill I be?
His words were normal.
Will I be normal?
I?
said Robert, the great thingabout heaven is your mind will
be set free.
And that man with autism justgrinned ear to ear for the rest
of the night at the thought thatone day he would not be.

(40:14):
You know, because he's gotautism he feels weird, different
, outcast.

Selena (40:19):
That's interesting and he knows it.

Imran (40:20):
Yeah.
And he can't wait to not be?
Oh my gosh, I've never eventhought about that.
Someone with a mental illnessis, then, what it's like to be
self aware of your mentalillness but able to do nothing
about it because you know wetalk all the time Ryan talked
about it more recently to likechallenge yourself, to try and

(40:41):
deny your body something andrealize how much control your
body actually has over you, andexponentially more so with your
mind.
It's like we really think wehave a lot of control over our
mind when we really don't.
and when you take that to itsextreme of like having a mental
illness and then being a selfaware that you have it and
knowing you can't do anythingabout it, like what a, what's a,

(41:04):
what a insane situation rightand imagine the thought of
Gloria finally overcoming that.
Yeah.

Because we take our minds for granted, we're
kind of proud of it.
But what if you were justafflicted with mental illness
and then to and you get a littleoutcast by it?
You get because you're notsocially normal, you're not
mentally able to deal with somestuff.

Imran (41:25):
And, like you said, to be aware of it and to be aware of
it, man, robert, it was ablissful ignorance is blissful
for a reason.
Yeah, but he knows.
He knows he's different.
He was just so happy.

That's intense.
Paul says in 2 Corinthians 5, 1to 4, he describes us having.
So, as soon as you die, youstep into the into heaven and
you are given a new body capableof the spiritual world.
So you have a human body.
With that clothes you on earth,in heaven, you have a spiritual
body and Paul describes thatbody.

Selena (42:00):
Remember, we know that if the earthly tent we live in
is destroyed, we have a buildingfrom God and eternal house in
heaven, not built by human hands.
Meanwhile we grown longing tobe clothed instead with our
heavenly dwelling, because thenwe are clothed, we will not be
found naked.
For while we are in this tentwe grown in our burden, because

(42:23):
we do not wish to be on clothesbut to be clothed instead with
our heavenly dwelling, so thatwhat is mortal may be swallowed
up by life.

Let me just unpack that a little bit.
Paul says if this earthly tentwe live in is destroyed, that's
your body.
Your body right now is like atent which tents are great for a
while, but you don't want tolive in a tent.
Tents get nasty, they getsmelly, they get torn.
Your body gets sick, it getsweary, it gets tired, it gets

(42:54):
cancer, it gets kidney disease.
It needs glasses, it needshearing aids, it needs caffeine.
Your body just on its own.

Imran (43:00):
It's just a tent, that's wearing out right On top of all
the temptation and all the.

In heaven we don't have a tent, we have a building
.
So a building is a permanentresidence.
He says right now you're justin a little temporary residence,
you're in a tent.
It's subject to the elementslike no other Exactly, but in
heaven you've got a body that'snot going to wear out, you've
got a spiritual body, and thatspiritual body it's like those
French castles, and it doesn'tbreak down.

Imran (43:28):
Yeah, it'll pretend they're from the elements.
They just put thousands ofyears.

Yeah, yeah, you will step right out when you die
.
You step right out of this oldtent and you step into a brand
new body.
All of a sudden you can see,all of a sudden you can hear.
I think things taste better.
I think it is.
Can I put it this way?
It's a body more capable ofreceiving reality than the
physical body you have right now.
There's a little bit ofunreality with your body now.

(43:54):
It cannot fully taste, it can'tfully see.
Your body now.
It can't see spiritual things,you can't see angels, you can't.
It's limited.
You will step into a bodywithout some of those
limitations.
I love that.

Imran (44:08):
That's intense.

Things you'll see.
You'll see angels, you'll seegates, you'll see people who
have died.
You're going to see your ownnew body.
I think the most importantthing to communicate of what
you're going to see is you willsee Jesus.
That is the promise.
You're going to see Jesusstanding in glory and his face
is going to shine like the sunand, I think, very quickly you
will have a conversation withJesus about the life that you

(44:30):
lived.
For believers, that is going tobe a great experience to stand
before Jesus, I think, giving anaccount for our lives.
How did you live?
Let's talk about your life.
You are going to intensely feelhis love.
You will know how much Jesusloves you.
At that moment, many willreceive deep forgiveness.
Some of you are going to hearwell done, good and faithful

(44:52):
servant.
I think he was going to wipetears away from this world, but
everybody did not believe and Idon't think everybody has the
same experience with Jesus.
I think for the wicked to standbefore Jesus will be a terrible
moment.
Jesus said that he will castsome away from him.
They'll come up and they'll sayhey, remember, I did all this
for you.
And he's going to say you werea total fake away from me, you

(45:14):
who are wicked and all you'llwant to do for all eternity is
stand and stare into his face.
So it would be cast away fromhim as the deepest hell.

Imran (45:23):
That's pretty intense, let's see.
Honestly, convicting is not theright word, but it's like an
awareness of the intensity ofthat fact.

I hope it makes you hungry.

Imran (45:39):
It's like I can choose to go to church, I can choose to
go to work, I can choose the joband the career and all that,
but I cannot choose not to die.
I cannot choose not to gothrough this process that we're
describing here.
And there's a peace, but also afear associated to that as well
, because it's one of the fewthings that you can never really

(46:05):
escape Again, unless Jesuscomes back and you just don't
have to die, you just go getraptured straight up, you don't
have to worry about it.
All right, but outside of thatit's like you will die, you will
stand before the king, you willgive an account.

And that's a very personal experience.

Imran (46:23):
You don't give an account , it's not a may, it's a will
and it's like, oh, that's.

I don't give account for your life, I give
account for me.
So me and Jesus have aconversation about my life and
what do I bring to him?
What do I have to give to theLord?
Where there's souls that I want?
Did I?
Did I serve him well?
At that moment, I want toplease the Lord.

Imran (46:40):
Like I said, I think you will want to spend all eternity
staring into his presencebecause he is beautiful but then
the the caveat to that is also,though, that I can never do
enough to meet some standardexpectation to enter heaven.
So then, how?
How does how?
Do I know that I'm going toLike, I'm going to?

be okay, because the promises of God are secured
in the person of Jesus.
Jesus promised to you is thatif you, by faith, put your faith
in him and live for him, thatyou are received in the kingdom
of God.
Not based on your good works,you're brought.
You're brought into the kingdomof God based on the blood shed
for you on the cross.
And so the reason we live is wewant to have something to give

(47:26):
to him.
You want to show up the sameway you want to please somebody
with a gift.
You want to live your life likea gift you're going to give the
Lord.
I like that, yeah, you want toshow up on that day and he and
not go.
Okay, you're gonna let me in,he goes.
Yeah, but I was so disappointedin how you lived.
You want to get there and sayyou know, I won this person to
you, I shared you, I, you, justyou love him so much money or

(47:48):
life.
That was testimony to you andall of that you know when
there's a girl you really love,you want to show up and please
her with a gift.
It's not that you have to, youjust want.
You want to.
Yeah, how much more than a girlis Our Lord, I like, we want to
show up and because then it'snot about I'm doing this so that
I can make it into your heaven.

Imran (48:06):
I'm doing this so that I can be saved.
It's like I'm doing thisbecause I know I'm saved and
therefore it's totally different, huh I was not it's not
self-absorbed.

Well, I don't want to spend time in purgatory, so
I live a good life.
Yeah, it's, I want to givesomething.

Imran (48:19):
I'm so thankful that the Lord saved me, that I'm giving
him yeah this.
I'm giving him this smalllittle bit of time on this
eternal rope, because all thateternal is already guaranteed.
Amen, amen.

Little bit about what to expect in heaven.
I just wrote down.
I thought that's a good way toPull together this discussion.
Is some descriptions in heaven,or or some descriptions in the
Bible of heaven.
So what do we have here?
We have about four, fourdifferent descriptions, and
here's why I thought this wascool.

(48:58):
There's a whole bunch ofdifferent ways the Bible
describes heaven, because Ithink the human mind cannot hold
in heaven.
So the Bible almost stutters.
It goes well, it's like a, it'slike a it's like a.
It's like a city, it's like agarden, it's a.
So let me just describe some ofthem Then.
Then, later on, will divedeeper into these, absolutely.
But number one heaven isdescribed as a great city.
Hebrews 11 8 says that Abrahamlong for the city, whose

(49:21):
foundation was from from God.
When you think of a city, youthink of a busy place.
People are moving aroundthere's streets.
When you look at heaven, it'sfull of people, there's trees,
there's drones, there's clothes.
Heaven is described as thisgreat, massive city.
Those of us that are urbancertainly urban America we can
picture a city.

Imran (49:41):
Yeah, how exciting that is.
Some people though they're likewhy can't heaven just be a big
ranch, All right.

Well, you'll like this.
Heaven is also described as abanquet which man we're just
coming at the end ofThanksgiving Headed into
Christmas Backwards, are kind ofa big deal.

Imran (49:58):
The funny part is this is probably gonna come out like
right on Christmas right.

So, so think about you go and what you love doing
is just eating with family.
Yeah that's heaven.

Imran (50:09):
I say at 25, verse 6 so people literally say that that's
heaven about eating with family.

Now I'm eating a bank with family like how, this
is heaven, it is, it's yeah soSelena's like yes, yes, it's a
taste, nodding at aggressively,it's a taste of heaven to eat
with people you love.
All right, selena.

Selena (50:25):
I say at 25, verse 6 on this mountain, the Lord of hosts
will make for all people afeast of rich food, a feast of
well-aged wine, of Rich foodfull of marrow.

There's how it describes the food that God
prepares it's a feast, it'swell-aged wine I like this line
rich food.
And then he says full of marrow.
You know what marrow is?
Bone marrow, like me, it's meat.
Oh, I don't know how that worksout.
Somebody was trying to push melike how could there be meat in
heaven If I was like look, Idon't, I'm not in charge of
organizing things.

(50:57):
Yeah, I don't have atheological answer for how it,
how there's meat in heaven.
I'm just excited there is, wealso.

Imran (51:03):
And got Absolute facts.
I never even thought about that.
But at the same time I was alsolike why would I have to eat?
But at the same time, likeeating tastes good, so it's like
I'm not gonna go hungry, butalso I can eat if I want.

Selena (51:16):
It's a good time and there's wine and there's wine.
Never really thought of wineand heaven.

Imran (51:23):
Yeah, yeah.
It's like there's wine but nodrunks.

Hey, yeah we've only experienced wine under a
curse.
It makes you crazy.
Imagine being set free fromthat bit of the curse.

Imran (51:37):
Oh my gosh, where did I read that that was?
That was literally.
It was called so bay in thebook that I was.
Oh, oh, that's gonna bother me.
It's a really old book, it'sit's like a hundred year old
book.
It's a answer to GeorgeOrwell's 1984, but in the book

(51:57):
they talk about that they'vepeople are trying to escape
reality and Science haveproduced this drug and they call
in the book they call it so bayand basically you could freely
get it.
It's called brave new worldbrave new world.

I mean, that's actually thank you, brave new
world, and so you take in you'redescribing.
I'm like that sounds a lot likebrave new world.

Imran (52:17):
Yeah, brave new, which was a companion to 1984 Mm-hmm,
it was.
That was a continuation of thethought that was expressed in
George Orwell's 1984 veryfantastic book, but the so bay
that the scientists, the peopleinvented.
They were using it to escape.
So, instead of having to dealwith the realities of life,
instead of having to confrontRelationship, instead of having

(52:38):
to deal with difficult thingsanytime any difficulty presented
the people take the drug.
They would take the drug andthey would just go off into the
dreamland and not have to dealwith it.
Or, if they're like man, worksucks, they would take the drug
so they could do their work andfeel Good about doing something
they didn't really want to doinstead of actually facing it.
But anyway, I brought that upbecause in the book they
describe it as a drug with noside effects.

(53:01):
There were no side.
You could take it and you couldtake as almost as much as you
wanted to escape reality.
And there were no side effects.
You would just like you couldtake so much that you would just
pass out, but you would justwake up three, four days later
and be fine.
There were still no sideeffects.
You just like come out of it.
What if wine?

under the curse, which is what we have now.
What if it deadens you toreality?
And what if wine set free fromthe curse brings?

Imran (53:25):
like enhances, but.

I just say that it definitely refers to rich food
and and meat and wine.
Jesus also described heaven usethe term of a banquet, the
picture of a banquet, matthew811.
You see that, selena?

Selena (53:39):
Many will come from the east and the west and will take
their places at the feast withAbraham, isaac and Jacob in the
kingdom of heaven.

So Jesus refers to it as a feast, also in
revelation.
You just you're invited to thewedding.
Separate of the lamb.
All this imagery of eating.
Why are all this picture ofeating?
Like it's a big Thanksgiving,it's a big here's why we get
excited about what we're gonnaeat.
You know, I'm excited not aboutwhat we're gonna eat, I'm just
excited someone else is gonna dothe meal planning.
Oh my gosh, like I'm so gladsomebody else has figured out.

(54:09):
But it's not so much that weshould be excited.
We're gonna eat and we're like,okay, we're gonna eat meat.
Is there gonna be wine?
Is there cheese?
Oh man, there better be.
It's more that Eating in theBible is a picture of fellowship
that you spend time with oneanother.

Imran (54:25):
So it's not about the gluttony, it's not a, you nailed
it yes.

It's that you're with one another.
What do you do at theThanksgiving table?
You sit, you laugh withrelatives you haven't seen for a
while.
You talk deeply, you sit well,you know well after the food's
been eaten and you talk and youideally, I hope, your family
does that.
Yeah, I hope you do that thisChristmas, because it's a taste
of heaven, not just the food,but the imagine sitting at the
table and just talking toAbraham, talking to King David

(54:51):
yeah, talking to Loved ones thathave passed.
Just being at the table and joy.
So Often the Bible idea ofeating together is the idea of
community, as you so perfectlysaid.

Imran (55:02):
Yeah, I mean all through Judaism.
And then there there are allthese Fellowships that are stood
up, festivals that are stood upbecause the community is the
point.
That's right.

So heaven is described as a city, is
described as a banquet.
It's also described as a throneroom.
Isaiah said I saw the Lord highand lifted up.
He's like sitting on the mightythrone.

Imran (55:23):
Yeah.

It says, the foundations of the temple shook,
the room filled with smoke.
In in Immolation, john is sweptfrom earth and he steps into
heaven and the first thing hesees as he sees, the throne of
God.
That's important us, that'simportant imagery, not just for
death, but it's important for usto know that in heaven the
throne of all the universe sitsand God rules on it from there.

(55:46):
And so the, the universe is notwithout a ruler.
There is not there, there isnot cessation is there's not
that.
There's nothing out there.
There is one that rules allthat exists.
Yeah, I love that.
One last one just images.
It certainly is a banquet, itcertainly is pictured as the

(56:07):
throne.
You know the, the place wherethe great king rules.
It's pictured as a city.
I like this.
It's just pictured by Jesus asan intimate home.
You're just home, and it's theeasiest way to describe what
happens when we die, is we gohome?
We say, hey, they're home withthe Lord.
I think that's good theologywhen we say somebody's home.

Imran (56:26):
Something pastor Grover says is a when I, when I come
into church on Sunday and hegives me the fist bump, he says
I'm welcome welcome.
I'm good and faithful servant.
Is that cool yeah?

how's it make you feel Love?
Yeah, yeah.

Imran (56:40):
I really.
Anything that comes out ofGrover's mouth makes me feel
loved, that's so cool.
He's just exudes that yeah.
That peace, I think, is theword, that peace yeah.

Think of all this spectacular imagery that you
know.
There's this mighty city, and,and John got excited by the city
and the foundations and thePopulation and the great trees.
And then Jesus, the streets ofgold, and we're like, wow, wow,
look at all that.
And Jesus goes it's just home,just understand, it's home.

Imran (57:10):
And Jesus, look, they said it's just home to me, I
just want you to be home, yeahwith me, it should be that, that
sense and any goes so far, sayI'm preparing a home for you,
yeah.

Yeah, here's why that matters.
It's heaven is not so grandiosethat we're uncomfortable there.
So if you were to stay thenight in the White House, you'd
be terrified.
Like I don't want to mess thesheets up, I'll run any big city
.
Yeah, we.
A while back I took the kids toDisneyland.
They were little and we stayedat the Disneyland Hotel.
We were so excited we walkedright in it.

(57:41):
This was a big deal turns outanyway it is if you did that for
me.
My god, I was terror.
I did not enjoy it a bitBecause I was terrified the
entire time.
At one point I remember I gotupset that Rebecca spilled juice
on the floor and we're like, ohno, this is the Disneyland
Hotel, what it?
It was just a little beyond us.

Selena (58:01):
It was so big I couldn't enjoy it.
Oh.

I think that heaven is not the Disneyland
Hotel, it's not.
It's not the White House,disneyland.
Heaven is home.
Jesus said it's home.
I Like this.
I wanted to read this.
This is by Bob Benson, who's aan author.
He wrote a book.
He was dying with cancer and hewrote a book and he said this.
He said I Used to think ofdying as leaving the party early

(58:26):
, but I've come to understandthat there's a party going on
somewhere else and I'm missingout on it the.
The Bible, of course, callsthat party the marriage supper
of the lamb.
The title of his book was youat the house and he said this.
He said you know, someone willsay you're out and they'll say,
hey, I'll meet you back at thehouse.
That that communicates warmthand fellowship and acceptance

(58:47):
and security.
That's what Jesus said to us.
He said hey, guys, I'll meetyou back at the house.
Yeah you know.
Yeah, I love that.
The most important thing issomething, imran.
You hit on it earlier soperfectly how do we know we're
going there?
John 14, verse 4, and all theway down to 6, selena describes
how we know we're going toheaven.

Selena (59:07):
And you know the way to where I'm going.
Thomas said to him Lord, we donot know where you are going.
How can we know the way?
Jesus said to him I am the wayand the truth, and the life.
No one comes to the Fatherexcept through me.

Is that wonderful?
How do I know I'm going toheaven?
Jesus says is like I said hey,we don't know how to get there.
It's not like Jesus goes Okay,wait, wait, let me get a map out
and show you.
I'll give you the GPS.
I'll we would we get lost inthe way Jesus said just trust me
, I'll get you there, I'll walkyou right in to heaven because
you're mine, you know yeah,that's awesome man, pastor, this

(59:44):
is are you excited?

Imran (59:45):
about heaven.
I'm super excited about thisseries here in general because
that's where I have like a bunchof questions but at the same
time I can.
It's like there's sometimeswe're sometimes in the last hour
I was like man, my heart rate'sgetting pretty elevated Because
it's really intense, at leastfor me personally.
I'm a thinker.
I really just kind of tearthings apart and try to Think

(01:00:07):
about this, the so, what and thewhy, and then, like, carry that
to its extreme and try toreally figure out the purpose
behind it.
And I don't take thingsLiterally.
I don't try to take it just theway that someone told me.
I try to really extrapolate on,like, well, why does that
person say, why are they sayingthe things they're saying?
Why are they believe the thingsthey believe?
And try and really pull thatout more.
And, and, selena, now we'retalking about this and we talked

(01:00:31):
a little bit too, but it's likethe one of the reasons why I
trust the, the words of JesusChrist, as much as I do is
Because they work all the way totheir extremes.
Jesus talks about that, that heis love, that God is peace, that

(01:00:52):
, and it's like these ideals andthese values.
It's like you take, if you takelove to its extreme, it's still
good.
You take peace to its extreme,it's still good.
You take, like that past, thepassion of Christ's, extreme it
and he really did take it toextreme.
He died on the cross for us andit was still good.
So if you can't take a lot ofthe politics and the values that

(01:01:13):
we have in our society To hisextreme and it's still be good
just what we talked about withthe Buddhism piece in the
beginning you take Reincarnationto its extreme and it's like,
well, I don't want to getreincarnated into a worse state
than I am now.
So why would it be so?
Why would I live a good life tohopefully, maybe not have a
chance?

Pastor David (01:01:30):
Yeah, they got worse.

Imran (01:01:32):
Yeah, and it's like so it doesn't work.
At its extremes, it doesn'tmake sense.
Why would I want to bereincarnated to this place?
It's like, why would I want toserve the devil for a chance to
come back here and then die inwar?
It's like, because you take itto its extreme, it doesn't make
sense.
But you take Jesus to theextreme and it still works.
It still makes sense, it's stillgood.
Amen and um.
And that's why I enjoy these,these discussions, because the

(01:01:54):
podcast really gives me a chanceto Ask those questions and ask
so what in the wine?

the Bible answers the big question that we as
humans are capable of asking.
I don't think a deer wonderswhat happens when it dies.
I don't think the animalkingdom thinks that far yeah, I
don't think so.
But the human is capable ofunderstanding that we have an
end, and that terrifies us.
Oh no, I have an end.
The Bible, from the earliestchapters of Genesis, is Giving

(01:02:21):
us the answer that this is notthe end, that there's an
eternity waiting for us, and soit is working to comfort us.
And, as Hebrew said, jesus setsus free, those who all their
lives were slaves to the fear ofdeath.
So I would say that, all of youout there, you are an eternal
soul.
You do not need to fear death,but you do need to fear the Lord

(01:02:42):
, and you need to rightly placeyour hope and hope.
It rightly placed, is not inpurgatory, it's not in wrong
systems, it's, and it's not evenin the system of Christianity.
Right hope is put in JesusChrist and Asking him to remove
sin, that you might live for himout of a life to give to him.

Imran (01:02:58):
Yeah, I love that, mm-hmm .
Yeah, thank you so much, pastor.
This is fun.
I look forward.
I how far did we get?
We actually get as far as youwanted, or we were there we
accomplished.
He like pre-planned to breakhis break his notes up and I was
like a you probably should.
It's like we might.

Have a lot of questions, yeah but this was
really good.

Imran (01:03:18):
I hope you all continue down.
This was like journey for me,like you don't even understand
what's happening like in my body.
But, I hope that you all arefeeling just as passionate and
excited to Continue down thisrabbit hole with us as we
continue to learn more about ourLord and Savior and about
heaven.
Amen, all right with that, Ihope you'll join us next week

(01:03:39):
for the next episode of realBible stories.

Selena (01:03:43):
Thank you for tuning in to real Bible stories.
If you enjoyed this podcast, besure to leave a review, share
and subscribe to be notifiedeach week when we upload new
episodes.
Real Bible stories is producedin partnership with Palm Church
in 29 Palms, california.
If you would like moreinformation or want to check out
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(01:04:06):
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Ep 76 But What is Heaven? - Exploring the Real Vivid Depictions of Heaven Throughout the Bible

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Ep 76 But What is Heaven? - Exploring the Real Vivid Depictions of Heaven Throughout the Bible