Ep 77 Fear, Failure, Faith, and Four Giants - The Real Story of David and Goliath

In the latest episode of our podcast, my wife and I had the pleasure of talking with Pastor Ryan Brown. This podcast episode serves as an invitation to delve deeper into the narratives that have shaped centuries of moral and spiritual guidance, encouraging a re-examination of the lessons at the heart of the Bible. We invite you to join us in this enlightening journey through ancient wisdom, as we connect its relevance to the complexities of modern life.

 The tale of David and Goliath was revisited with a nuanced lens, focusing not merely on the physical battle but also on the deeper implications of heroism, masculinity, and generational responsibility. Pastor Ryan illustrated the roles played by individuals like Ehud, a judge with a physical disability, and Samson, whose chaotic actions aligned with divine purposes despite their apparent weaknesses or flaws. The discourse emphasized the stark contrasts in masculinity as depicted in the book of First Samuel, shedding light on the societal pressures faced by men and youth alike.
 
 As we explored the notion of giants within the narrative of First Samuel, Pastor Ryan introduced a thought-provoking analysis of the various textual interpretations of Goliath's height and the consequential historical and literary implications. The concept of stature was not limited to physical attributes but extended to the stature of one's heart and character. This key theme resonated throughout the episode, as it does in the biblical narrative, challenging the conventional criteria for leadership and heroism.
 
 Furthermore, the discovery of the Ugarit texts and their revelations about the Canaanite religion brought a new dimension to our understanding of the biblical era. The impact of these texts on biblical scholarship and our perception of scriptural polemics was thoroughly examined, providing listeners with a richer comprehension of the divine authority presented in these ancient texts.
 
 In conclusion, the episode encouraged listeners to contemplate the spiritual and moral lessons embedded within the Bible, prompting us to reconsider the significance of figures like Goliath. The thought-provoking query of whether Goliath could have been an ally had his zeal been directed towards a righteous cause added depth to the moral contemplations.

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Episode Transcript

Imran (00:01):
Hi, this is Imran from Real Bible Stories.
I just wanted to get on herereal quick.
I know that we just startedthis series with Pastor David on
Heaven, but he got really busyat the beginning of 2024.
So we're actually going to becoming to you with this great,
great episode from Pastor RyanBrown, because now we got him
back from the holiday period.

(00:21):
So I hope you really enjoyedthis episode.
It is definitely one of myfavorites and it's definitely
maturing the view that you hadon this Bible story.
Hope you enjoy.
Hello and welcome to Real BibleStories.
Join us as we deep dive intothe historic, religious,

(00:43):
cultural, political andemotional context surrounding
the real lives of real people inthe Bible and the stories we've
all grown to life.
Hello and welcome back to RealBible Stories.
I'm your host, imran Ward, andwe're joined by my wife, selena,
and our teacher for today,pastor Ryan Brown.

(01:04):
Hello everyone.

Selena (01:05):
Welcome back.
I know I'm so excited and happyNew Year's everybody.
Yeah.

Imran (01:11):
It's been such a journey in terms of like everywhere
we've been over the last fewweeks.
Selena and I just came backfrom a trip to Miami, where
we're both from for the holidayperiod.
And, Ryan, what were you doingfor Christmas?
Were you just around here?

Ryan (01:20):
Yeah, we stayed pretty local.
We went up to Flagstaff for tothe Polar Express and did some
hiking up in To the PolarExpress, yeah.

Imran (01:29):
What is?

Ryan (01:30):
that it's in Williams.
It's awesome.
It's pretty much just a trainride that goes from Williams up
to this little Santa North wholetown and back down and they do
St Christmas, carols and hotchocolate and all that.
That's super cute, but they got.
Bear.

Selena (01:46):
Zona there, my favorite zoo's there.

Ryan (01:49):
We go there.
Every time we go, it's like oneof those drive-through zoos.
Do you have to take a train toget to it?
No, no.
This is like right about fiveminutes outside of the town of
Williams Arizona that you showup and it's just like.
It's kind of like Jurassic Parkthe doors open up and you go
driving through and then it'sjust all the bears and wolves
and you're just driving alongwith them and it's a good time.

(02:10):
That's so interesting Did thedeer farm and then went up to
Flagstaff and did some hikingand we had a good holiday.

Imran (02:16):
We got to see a lot of snow and, yeah, that does sound
like a good time.
All right, awesome, awesome.

Ryan (02:22):
But I missed you all.
I was telling them around whenhe came to pick me up that yeah,
I feel like I haven't seen youguys in like forever.

Imran (02:29):
Yeah because it just kind of ended up not crossing passes
often.
You know, like Selina went tothe meeting yesterday but I
didn't actually go to churchyesterday because I was over at
the Protestant Chapel working onthings.
But we're all here now.
We're all here together and nowwe're going to learn about the
Word of God together.
Amen.
And we're going into the storyof David and Goliath today.

Ryan (02:50):
Yeah, I think it'd be a good one for us to kick off, you
know, in the beginning, when wefirst started this whole
podcast, and I think it was whenyou guys had just shown up at
the church.

Imran (03:01):
Yeah, I think we'd only been there about six months or
so.

Ryan (03:03):
Yeah.

Imran (03:04):
By the first December, I think, is when I brought it up
to you and I showed up in likeJuly, June timeframe.

Ryan (03:09):
And in that time I was doing a Bible study series
called Real Bible Stories right,which was taking some of the
most common stories in yourBible and kind of maturing them
for adults, because we hadalways received these, you know,
versions of the story that werekind of for Sunday school Easy
to color and coloring book.
Right, you don't really like wedon't talk about why Goliath

(03:33):
was beheaded and dismemberedafter the battle, and you know
what I mean.
Like you don't talk about thatwith kids.
Some people were like he wasyeah.
Just wait.
Yeah, so the whole premise wastrying to mature some of those
most common stories.
But the other thing andfunctionally there's I've seen
two kind of responses to theseBible stories and podcasts is

(03:56):
one people they absolutely loveit.
I think when they get some ofthe more of the depth, where
it's just beyond the nuance.

Imran (04:02):
Yeah, it just makes it more real.
Yeah.

Ryan (04:06):
And so they enjoy it.
But some of them they're like,yeah, but you also kind of ruin
that story in the sense that youknow their entire life, you
know they had this.
That's rose-tinted view.
Yeah, this view of what thatstory was and what it was, what
was going on, and kind ofcompletely reforms and reframes
it a bit, and a lot of thereason and we're going to see
that tonight, which is why I'mkind of leading into that is

(04:27):
that you know these stories.
You know particularly the verypopular well, all of them, but
you know the popular ones.
They're not told in a vacuum,right?
So the point of communicatingthat story isn't just simply to
let you know hey, there's thisreally cool battle between this
warrior called Goliath and thisshepherd boy named David right.

(04:48):
Yeah, it's in there to a largerpoint and typically the way
these stories are taught orpreached, or you know if it's
taught in Sunday school, it'sreally just that story.
If you're preaching it, evenmost sermons are about 30 to 40
minutes, so you don't have awhole lot of time to get into

(05:09):
all the intricacies, right yeah,the nuances around how warfare
works.

Imran (05:13):
Why were they at that battle in the first place?
Well, what happened after thatbattle and how it?

Ryan (05:16):
sits within the literary context of that book, right,
that any one of those stories ispulling in multiple themes,
motifs and ideas that haveprobably been introduced before
and are reinforced after, butthat are ultimately leading to a
larger point that has neveralways made.

(05:36):
So we just kind of make youknow, pull the story out and get
some points from that.
But you know what I mean.
It's incomplete.

Imran (05:44):
I totally get you.

Ryan (05:44):
Yeah, so we're going to be doing that.
We're going to be taking first,starting kind of like at a 3000
foot view of this story.
That kind of weeds into itbecause you know it's.
You have to really understandthe real story behind David and
Goliath and why it wassignificant, why it was included
.
You really need to understandthe problem, what was going on.

Imran (06:06):
Yeah, and I absolutely agree.
For those that have beenlistening to the more recent
episodes, like if you listen toour episode on the Red Sea
crossing, I didn't even thinkabout that happening at night,
like something that's like veryclearly written in the scripture
.
Every time I, you know, I hadto draw it in a coloring book as
a kid.

Selena (06:27):
I drew a sunshine in the sky or there was already
sunshine there for me to color.
Color in the sun.

Imran (06:31):
But it's like that happened at night undercover
darkness.
We had a pillar.
They were being led by a pillarof flame that then went behind
them and blinded the Egyptiansfrom being able to see the
Israelites cross, and there wasa light on one side and darkness
on the other, so they wereconfused.

Ryan (06:45):
It's like wow, that is very well, that's going to
actually feed into anotherconcept we're talking about with
David and Goliath.
that was applied to that storyas well, so that's actually good
, good anchor for us to maybefall back on to to discuss later
now, but just because, because,yeah, yeah, well, we'll take it
in due time because there'sactually a lot to chew here, so
let me, I guess, one bite at atime.

(07:05):
Yeah well, let's first startoff with first Samuel.
In the book that this storysits in, we're gonna be in first
Samuel 17 and first Samuel as abook itself.
Like maybe just summarize itthis way what was the problem?
What was going on?
This story sits underneath thelarger point of first Samuel,

(07:29):
which is that you it's trying toaddress Generational failure.
Interesting, particularly amongadults.

Imran (07:37):
Now, just from my mind, first Samuel's, after judges,
right, correct.
It's been a while since I'vedone Bible drill.
And that is absolutely have allof the stuff that happened very
next of judges.
It flows, judges flows rightbecause judges is all of that
generational failure, with thejudge being risen.
And then how did it go?
It's like the people are giventhe sign, they turn to God and
then they start turning awayfrom God.

Ryan (07:57):
A judge is risen up and I think it's right and we're gonna
refer to that here in a bit,because so it's speaking to a
generational failure, butparticularly a generational
failure of adults, butspecifically, specifically men.
So to your judges, point right,which is also generational

(08:20):
failure.
Yeah, and the idea is that Godhad made a promise to them, but
they also had to be faithfulback.
They had to go clear the landof Canaan we're kinda to Clear
out of all the inhabitants andbe faithful, right, but they
weren't doing.
They started to with Joshua.
They kind of made these littlestrongholds within the land, but
they never finished the job,right?

(08:41):
Mm-hmm.
So God is starting wanting toraise up judges, to keep them to
do because he's faithful, evenif they're unfaithful, yeah, but
he uses he does it in ways,though, to show them in a sense,
I think, even give confidenceto them.

Imran (08:56):
Remember correctly, it was Samson that, through his
actions, actually triggered theright with the Canaanites.
It ultimately got the CanaaniteScriven out right.

Ryan (09:04):
So to put it across and we're not gonna go through all
the judges, but yeah, like ifyou look at um Deborah, okay, so
as a good example isParticularly in this culture,
women were not Expected to takeup arms and fight wars, yeah,
let alone lead armies to be thegeneral, but because the men

(09:24):
were failing to do it, he saysI'm still going to accomplish
what I want to accomplish, butI'm not gonna raise up a man,
I'm gonna raise up a woman,mm-hmm, and I'm going to show
that I can use anybody toaccomplish what I want.
Right, yeah there's anotherstory.
Another judge, ehood, who was acripple.
Yeah, like it says, essentiallyforgot the name of it, but it's
when you're like your boneskind of contract in and it kind

(09:47):
of makes your oh man, like itmakes your I.

Imran (09:50):
Do?
I do know what you're talkingabout.
I do not cripple in.
Yeah, I mean I forgot what it'scalled.

Ryan (09:54):
But but you have you hood, who's this cripple?
And he ends up going andexecuting and assassinating one
of the Canaanite Kings.
So he's showing them like men,if you're not gonna do it, I
will even raise up the crippledand they're gonna be able to
accomplish my will.
Right?
You get to Samson, who's apsychopath.
It's like okay, man, if you'renot gonna do it, I'm gonna raise
psychopaths and I'm gonna usethem to my good to Strip so much

(10:17):
chaos that will force you to goto war to be faithful with what
you're supposed to do, right?
So first Samuel is kind of anextension of that right is that?
Here they're.
They're in war against thePhilistines because of the chaos
that Samson hadn't raised up.
They're finally at war, butthey're still not really fully
mature in their faith, what theywere supposed to be doing in

(10:40):
first Samuel.
You have 100 and I have itright down here.
Oh, the term men or man is used161 times in the book.
In Samuel, in first Samuel okay, and that is more than any
other book in the Bible.
Oh, wow so there is more, thatthere is the heaviest emphasis
on men in first.
Samuel, and the one that comesin number two is second Samuel,

(11:03):
with 140 instances of man.
Manning these so there's, thisemphasis, like it's meant to be
a manly book, right, in a senseyou kind of get that sense when
you read it because it's there'sa lot of combat, there's a lot
of war, right, like yeah, if youwere to make a movie of this
book of the Bible, it's like itwould be a guy movie, right,
like it would just be oh man,what is that quintessential

(11:24):
movie about the Roman battle?

Imran (11:29):
No, but that's great to.
They could be 300, 300 not 500,you're right.

Ryan (11:39):
Yeah, like even the guy like Braveheart, and you know
that's the kind of movie forSamuel would be.
So it's meant to appeal to men.
It's meant to be one of thosekind of books, right, and Even
more so.
There is also this comparisonbetween men and the youth.
So you got adults and men andyou got boys, youth.

(12:01):
That's another one that's calm,the only other book it actually
ties for With Genesis, for themost used term of the you of the
word youth, or boy, or somebodywho's like an adolescent.

Imran (12:15):
That's interesting that Genesis uses that term that much
.

Ryan (12:19):
And that's because most of Genesis is talking about a
family, right from Abraham allthe way through, and so, anyways
, my point being is that whatyou're really talking about is
this generational failure, andleading into the story with
David Excuse me and fightingGoliath is that you and a lot of
people miss.
The tragedy of this story,which is that here is David at

(12:44):
this particular time, isanywhere between the ages of
probably 13 and 16 years old,okay?
Having to go fight a battlethat all of the men of his
generation should have foughtbut refused to fight?
So not only did they allow achild to fight their fight for
him, they encouraged him, theyeven tried to equip him and they

(13:07):
allow him to go out alone.
Right, so like, we're gonna getinto it here in a second, but
even when the speaks of Goliathshowing up to this fight, he has
a shield bearer with him.
Nobody even went out with DavidTo go fight this fight.
So you're talking about howembarrassing that is for a man
to be reading this and be like,wow, there was not a single man

(13:28):
who was willing to step up anddo what he needed to do.
Instead, we needed our childrento fight this fight, and I
think, like that point in itself, when we start thinking about a
generation, is that I would say, I would even argue, in our
current generation you can findplenty of examples where we are
expecting our youth to fightfights that the adult should be
fighting.
And because adults aren'ttaking responsibility for the

(13:51):
fights they should be fighting,that's why you start seeing like
, culturally, politically, allthese things start targeting the
youth.
A lot of these are saying ifthat's who's gonna fight your
fights, that's who we're gonnatarget.
So, they're going after juniorhigh high school college
students, the current generation.

Imran (14:10):
I mean you can look at the biggest name protests that
you see right now.
A lot of them are primarilyit's the young people out there
protesting.
It's not those that are olderor empower anything like that.
It's like it's the high school,college generation, like
they're out there on the streetstrying to get something to
change because well they expectthose in power to be handling

(14:32):
whether or not, and they haveall the zeal but none of the
experience none of the educationyet.

Ryan (14:36):
So this is why you start seeing this powder cake of just
nonsense, right, and they'realso going to push things that
they're cause.
They're also more naive, sothey're going to believe certain
things quicker or withoutchallenge, or maybe they're like
I'm not sure that's right, butthey don't feel confident enough
yet and what they know or cando.
That's why adults need to stepin and say no, that's nonsense.

(14:58):
Let me You're the long-termnotifications of right let me
step in and be an adult in thissituation, instead of letting
you continue to fight this alone.

Imran (15:05):
Here's a little statistic that I heard recently in an
advertisement.
It was for a dating applicationand they said that it was
something like 58%, maybe 60%,of young people like Gen Z,
millennials, are comfortabledating multiple people at the
same time.
And this app was marketing thatlike we make it really easy and

(15:28):
convenient for you to be ableto date multiple people at one
time.
And I was like why is thatsomething that is marketable?
Like yeah, exactly.
And it's like it's like whatare we doing as adults, as
Christians, to help informpeople that that is not a
healthy way?
There's not long-term successin that strategy.
All right, there's a lot oflong-term ramifications.
That's not going to be in yourbest interest if you continue

(15:50):
down this path.

Ryan (15:51):
Right.
And how does that translate,though, to well, how do adults
fight the fight that childrenare fighting, it's like?
Well, that means having thefights with your children
sometimes.
Yeah.
Like, hey, I know you're 16,but no social media.
And if I catch you on socialmedia I'm taking your phone
right Like who wants to havethat fight with their teenager.
But sometimes you have tobecause you see the effects of

(16:13):
it.

Imran (16:13):
You know this new generation, right now, at people
two and under, they're one tobe called generation alpha.
That's termed now generationalpha.
Yeah, cause we have one throughZ, so we're back to A.
Yeah so cause you go into theGreek.
Now we're in the Greek alphabet.
So generation alpha is alsonicknamed iPad kids because of
the lack of involvement of theirparents and just being
perfectly comfortable givingthem the iPad and letting them

(16:35):
be taught by Apple and taught bythese tablet makers on how to
be, and taught by YouTube kidson how to be a kid, instead of
actually being involved in yourkids lives.
So it's-.

Ryan (16:48):
We went through this as a family because we like, we saw
it and we have put it into itright.
But there is a thing when youhave that toddler whoever's
throwing a temper tantrum abenefit that my generation has
with parenting that if anybodyolder like who was not part of
that iPad age when they hadchildren, would say that that's

(17:08):
just ridiculous, like they wouldhave done the exact same thing.
You know what I mean.
If your kids are losing yourmind and you're like, hey, here,
just watch this video, right Toentertain them, and they get it
.
It calms them down.
So now I'm not embarrassing therestaurant anymore.

Imran (17:20):
But the reverse is also true, cause I remember seeing at
the wedding that we were tryingto take this picture of the
ring bearer and he's, like youknow, like two years old or
whatever, and he was on the iPadand they took it away from him
and he just scurried.

Ryan (17:34):
Yeah, it turns into that.

Imran (17:35):
And they gave it back to him and he was completely quiet
and they were like but we needto take this picture.
They took it away from him andhe just screamed.
It took them like 20 minutes tocalm this kid down.
After they took this thing awayfrom him and we saw that too
and that's why we've removed it.

Ryan (17:47):
We did that fight and we said, yeah, they're not going to
be happy for a couple of days,but we removed YouTube.
We removed that right Cause wesaw the effects it was having
that we had become, ondiscipline, not really thinking
through the longterm effects ofthis the habit this could build
and what this could do to them.
But you know, that's sometimeslike the fight you need to fight
and if you don't fight thatfight, then you're letting all

(18:08):
these other sources right.

Imran (18:09):
Yeah, come in and yeah, corporations, schools, friends,
government coming in andmentoring your kid, when you
should be there teaching yourkid Right.

Ryan (18:17):
The first point of this is that the story of David and
Goliath sits within thisliterary context of talking
about a generational failure ofmen refusing to be men, allowing
children to fight fights thatthe adults should be fighting,
right, all to accomplish whatIsrael was supposed to be doing
in terms of their faithfulnessto what God had told them.

(18:39):
Right, so that's one.
The second thing is, I thinkand this is real Bible stories
right, this is going to be a,this is a misnomer, but we
always call this.
Whenever you think of David andGoliath, what do you think of
giants Defeating your giants,right, yeah?

Imran (18:59):
Who are the Goliaths in your life?
Yeah?

Ryan (19:00):
giants, giants, giants.
How to be a David, you know,whenever calls him a giant, that
is something that is justsubsumed onto the text and it's
the text doesn't call him agiant.
No, it does not Sure, doesn't,oh snap?

Imran (19:16):
So is it just because.
Well, we'll get to it, OK,because we're going to have to
read the text first.

Ryan (19:20):
We are going to get into it, but why don't we first
actually do that?
Let's read the.
Go ahead and explain what we'regoing to.
Start in verse four and gothrough what verse 11?
.

Imran (19:32):
This is first Samuel 17.

Ryan (19:34):
And we're going to be all across first Samuel 17, 16,
really across the entire book.
But this will be a good anchortext for us to start off.

Selena (19:44):
And there came out from the camp of the Philistines a
champion named Goliath of Gath,whose height was six cubits and
a span.
He had a helmet of bronze onhis head and he was armed with a
coat of mail, and the weight ofthe coat was 5,000 shekels of
bronze.
And he had bronze armor on hislegs and a javelin of bronze

(20:06):
slung between his shoulders.
The shaft of his spear was likea weaver's beam and his spear's
head weighed 600 shekels ofiron.
And his shield-bearer wentbefore him.
He stood and shouted to theranks of Israel why have you
come out to draw out for battle?
Am I not a Philistine and areyou not servants of Saul?

(20:28):
Choose a man for yourselves andlet him come down to me.
If he is able to fight with meand kill me, then we will be
your servants, but if I prevailagainst him and kill him, then
you shall be our servants andserve us.
And the Philistine said I defythe ranks of Israel this day.
Give me a man that we may fighttogether.

(20:50):
When Saul and Israel heardthese words of the Philistine,
they were dismayed and greatlyafraid.

Ryan (20:57):
OK, so that acts as a good anchor.
Ok, Now notice nowhere in.

Selena (21:01):
There are calls on my a-giant.
Well, what is?
Six cubits and a span.

Ryan (21:05):
So we'll talk about that here in a second, because and a
span.
Yeah, that's interesting metrics, right.
Yeah, but I first want to kindof make this point, which is
based off of the intention ofthe writer, the.
When you follow the way he,what the author is trying to

(21:26):
communicate in terms of firstSamuel and what he is
introducing, if you're going tocall Goliath a giant, you really
then have a story of fourgiants.
There's really four giants thatthe author presents in this
story and he really emphasizesthree elements for each one of
them.
Ok, so let me first name thefour giants, ok so you have

(21:50):
Goliath OK the champion of thePhilistines, ok.
the second is, you have Eliab,who is David's older brother.
Ok, that's the second giantthat is emphasized in first
Samuel.
The third is King Saul, and thefourth ultimately ends up being
David.
Ok, now, this is what he'scomparing.

(22:11):
Ok, this is the contrast andthis is what the authors, I
think, trying to communicate tous.
There's three things that areemphasized with each one of
these men.
The first is their stature.
Ok, so first, here we see withGoliath is what he is.

Imran (22:27):
Nine cubits and a shekel or a six cubits and a span.

Imran and Ryan (22:33):
Six cubits and a span, so he's six cubits and a
span.

Ryan (22:36):
So as a metric, what that would translate to us is around
nine foot nine to nine footeleven.
So people make this leap of.

Selena (22:46):
Ok, that means he's a giant because that's really tall
right, that's quite a height.

Ryan (22:50):
Now here's the thing, and this is going to rock some
people's boats.
OK but the oldest Recordeddocument we have of this story
comes out of the Subtuigen.
Now, the Subtuigen was theGreek translation of the Hebrew
Bible.
Ok, so when the Greeks came andtook over, alexander the Great

(23:12):
established the Library ofAlexandria, and what had
happened is all the greatscribes, all the great rabbis of
the day, met at Alexandria andthey translated the Hebrew Bible
into Greek, ok, ok, so theoldest document we have of this
story comes from the Subtuigen.
There is and I say that becausein the Subtuigen, which is the

(23:36):
oldest we have, it does not listGoliath as being nine foot nine
to nine foot eleven, six cubitsand a span, and instead it
tells us that he's four cubitsand a span, oh really, which
puts him about six foot nine tosix foot eleven, which is still
really tall, yeah, but it's notlike freakishly tall.

Imran (23:56):
Yeah, she killed Niels over seven feet tall Right, and
Goliath would have towered overhim.

Ryan (24:01):
You know what I mean?
Yeah, so if he was nine footnine?
So if he was nine foot nine,why is it that the older
document thinks you're killing.

Imran (24:08):
He was the tallest man.
I'm aware of.
It's like I don't think he'sthe tallest man, I think he's
not, that's currently alive.
I think it's a Chinese guy, butstill tall, Like I think you're
seven foot eleven is probablyso.

Ryan (24:20):
The point being is that why does it place him around six
foot nine, six foot eleven inthe older documents, but in the
newer, yeah, why does that getexaggerated?
Right, because the oldestHebrew document we have, which
is about 200 years older, putshim at nine foot nine, nine foot
eleven.

Imran (24:40):
OK, well, hold on.
He's hold on, because I want tomake sure I clarify, because
you said the oldest document wehave Of this story was the Greek
one.
Is the?
Is the sub-tuogen.

Ryan (24:52):
The sub-tuogen which was the Greek Translation of the
Hebrew Bible when all the rabbismet together in Alexandria and
translated over to Greek so soyou said 200 years older though,
but it's so.

Imran (25:01):
But this, this other, the oldest Hebrew one is 200 years
younger no order older, so evenolder than the Greek one right.

Ryan (25:09):
So the earliest document we have of this is the Greek
Subtuigen translation, which hashim at six foot nine, six foot
11.

Imran (25:15):
Yeah, but the Hebrew one is it wouldn't be older, be
younger.
It'd be 200 years younger.

Ryan (25:20):
No older how you know the oldest one the historically the
oldest Hebrew version of thisstory we have mm-hmm is when I
say older.
I'm sorry.
I think I understand yourconfusion.
The old Subtutian is older thanthe the oldest Hebrew document
we have of this okay, right theT, the Greek one, is 200 years

(25:41):
older than the Hebrew correct.

Imran (25:43):
He brought a slightly younger.
Yes, got you yes.

Ryan (25:46):
Yes, like, yeah, I got you two hundred more years.
That's how English works.
Yeah, I know, yes, what you'resaying.
Yeah, so the point is that I'mjust making sure.

Imran (25:53):
So the Hebrew ones younger, the Greek ones older,
but the Greek ones, atranslation of an older Hebrew
version correct.

Ryan (25:59):
Okay, that has him short right.

Imran (26:00):
Yeah, that has him short.
So to Selena's question.
But we latched on to thatoldest Hebrew version which is
to introduce younger than theGreek right and Selena's
question was why is that?

Ryan (26:08):
because in the time of that, he at least the oldest
Hebrew document we have.
That's when they were beingruled by the Greeks, so you have
to kind of understand Religiousrivalry.
Okay, if the Greeks are incharge, what religion is now
starting to take over and beCulturalized within the region
of Israel?

Imran (26:27):
does the Greek religion have a name.

Ryan (26:30):
Yeah, I mean.
Well, they have their pantheonright.
Zeus and Apollo and right sothe Greek pantheon of gods is
starting to Go into the culture,right?
Okay the Greek religion.
You know they had.
You know all these stories andmyths of these heroes going to
slay these massive giants andCreatures right.

Imran (26:52):
Odysseus playing the big epics they call them epics right
these big epics.

Ryan (26:57):
So part, but many think, is that they kind of change some
of the details To make it sounda little bit more like a Greek
epic, to get people kind offocused on Cyclops, right and
and you see a lot of instancesof this across the Bible and
we'll talk a little bit moreabout this later.

(27:18):
It's called polemics, but well,but when we talk in like
reality, right in terms of whatwe know by the oldest document
that we have, goliath isprobably more six foot nine, six
foot eleven big dude, reallytall, but not like this.

Selena (27:35):
Because, if not, they wouldn't have written it correct
like this, this guy he'simpressively tall but he is not
Supernatural exactly so, butnotice, though, that the first
thing right is that itemphasizes his stature, right.

Ryan (27:51):
This is how big he is.
This is how tall he is.
This is he's athletic.
He's a champion right.
The second thing is hisexperience.
So you see this in verse four,there, when it uses the term
champion Right.
To be a champion means you areexperienced in warfare, you're
you are not.

Imran (28:10):
You know you are not a novice exactly like this isn't a
David coming up right.

Ryan (28:14):
This is this is somebody who's experienced in war, so it
emphasizes stature experience.
And the third was equipment,right?
So the rest of that whole slewof text that you read knows how
it goes in explaining the typeof armor he has yeah this is
gonna become really relevantwhen we start talking about the
battle itself.
But there's this huge emphasison the equipment that go.

(28:37):
I thought so you got a guy whowas big and stature, who was
experienced and who is very wellequipped, yeah right, so
there's that big emphasis forhim.
Now again back to the sub twoagent.
It mentions his, his equipment,but it doesn't provide the same
details of equipment that's wasprovided later in the the

(28:58):
Hebrew document.
So Like talking about how muchthe shield weighed and things
like that, those right it theoriginal talks more to.
And he had all this, thisweaponry and equipment with him.
He's well equipped.
In their day that would havebeen a big deal, because it's

(29:18):
not like modern militaries where, all right, well it's just it's
a semi-quick, it go to.
Sif and check out your, yourPPE Right, like for you to go to
war?
And I'm gonna talk about thiswhen we get into the second
giant here, which is Eliab.

Imran (29:31):
You were kind of expected to source your own equipment to
war with like, even, even, as,even as recent, but like in the
revolutionary war, that was oneof the conditions of joining the
army it was to bring your ownrifle, all right.
And joining the Marine Corpsbring your own rifle.
So that was like you have tohave a rifle already if you're
gonna join.
We don't have rifles for you,right?

Ryan (29:50):
Yeah, it's expected you bring your own equipment.
So, and that goes into thesecond one here, which is Eliab,
who is David's family, right,it's his oldest brother and and
if you were to back up onechapter in chapter 16, I think
it's, let's see verse 6 through7 I mentioned.
So the prophet Samuel isshowing up because he's wanting
to anoint the next king, right,he's kind of doing this behind

(30:15):
Saul's back.
So he comes to Jesse, who hasall his sons, david being the
youngest of those sons.
But it says that it mentionsDid you turn there?
Yeah, so you know you want toread it versus 6 through 7.

Selena (30:28):
When they came, he looked on Eli.
How do you say that?

Ryan (30:32):
Eliab.

Selena (30:34):
Eliab and thought surely the Lord's anointed is before
him.
But the Lord said to Samuel donot look on his appearance or on
the height of his stature,because I have rejected him, for
the Lord sees not as man sees.

Ryan (30:49):
Man looks on the outward appearance, but the Lord looks
on the heart right, so noticethe emphasis there, though we're
gonna get to the looks at theheart here in a second, but the
first piece is don't look abouthow tall he is and how how big
he is right.
So it emphasizes the height ofGoliath, but it also the author
emphasizes the height of Eliab.
Mm-hmm right.

(31:10):
And then why is that?
Well, why Eliab?
In because it later tells usthat Eliab was the one who went
to war on behalf of that family.
Yeah, the whole reason Davidshows up to the battle is to
deliver cheese and bread to hisBrothers who went ahead to fight
does that?
Make sense.
So you have his older brotherwho is there, big and stature,

(31:34):
right experience would see.
Verse 13 Emphasizes theexperience of Eliab.
The equipment kind of we werejust talking about was a soon
going into battle right so hehad the equipment, he had the
experience, he had the stature,his older brother.
Mm-hmm but the Lord rejected him, right.
So here you have Goliath, hugestature experience equipment.

(31:56):
Here you have Eliab, statureexperience equipment.
Didn't get to solve, okay.
So in first Samuel, chapter 9,verses 1 through 2, it also
emphasizes the stature of KingSaul.
Do you have?

Imran (32:11):
it in around you when I read it, so first shot first
Samuel, chapter 9, verse 1 and 2.
There was a man of the tribe ofBenjamin whose name was kish,
the son of Abil, son of Xerorman.
You got me with this one son of.
Becarroth at the son of a P hi,a Benjamin, a mighty man of

(32:32):
influence and wealth.
Kish had a son named Saul, achoice and Handsome man.
Among the sons of Israel, therewas not a man more handsome
than he.
From his shoulders and up, hewas a head taller than Any of
the people so what does itemphasize?

Ryan (32:48):
there again, height right stature says stature.
So King Saul had stature.
He was taller than everybody,he was bigger than everybody.
He had the stature.
And really it is an inferredunderstanding.
But in terms of combatexperience, when you read from
chapters 13 all the way leadinginto this fight with Goliath,

(33:10):
they're just stories after storyof Saul fighting battles.

Imran (33:13):
Yeah, you're learning, dead he's winning.

Ryan (33:16):
Right, you're learning an Experiencing combat with Saul as
you kind of read through thatbook, right?
So you already know it'salready assumed.
How's that not?
In that series already, I knowright.
But then the third was hisequipment.
So, if you Remember, if we wereto keep reading out of first
Samuel 17, david will eventuallystep forward to fight Goliath.
And it says immediately whatSaul begins to do is to dress

(33:41):
David and his armor right.
So Because to them and we'llget to this in a second we get
to David.

Selena (33:48):
David didn't have you know the stature.

Ryan (33:51):
He didn't have the experience and he didn't have
equipment.
So he's like well, at least theleast we could do is give you
equipment.
Mm-hmm and King Saul, being theking, probably had the best
equipment of everybody in thearmy.
Yeah does that make sense,mm-hmm?
So I'll at least give you somegood equipment to go fight with
right, and then eventually, youknow, david rejects it and says
I can't move in this like thisis not too much.
It's not built for me because,remember, he's bigger than

(34:13):
everybody and yeah, but see howit's emphasizing those three
elements for each one of them,right?
Yeah, so they're all prettymuch the same.
They're all tall, they're allbig, they're all Well experience
and war, and they're all wellequipped right.
Then you get to David.
Right, and this is what theauthor is kind of leading
everybody to by comparison ofthose three things, now, what

(34:34):
does it say of David's stature?
Right?
So one this says that he washandsome.
It says that he was uses thisterm essentially that he was
like a redhead who was likeblushing, but he was very Like a
beautiful, yeah, baby face andso, okay, handsome, I probably
would have made the girls gogaga, right?

(34:55):
But not this and you see thatrugged when you get to Back to
chapter 17,.
Right, when David comes forwardto fight Goliath, he actually
gets offended.
This is what he says.
He said to David am I a dogthat you come to me with sticks?
If and the Philistine curseDavid, by the Gods, come here,

(35:18):
he said, I'll give you a flesh,the birds and the wild animals.
But what?
What?
All to that?
Because in verse 42 he says helooked David over and saw that
he was a little more than a boy,glowing with health and
handsome, and he despised him,right.
So the point is, is that whatit emphasizes with David is that
, yeah, I keep maybe evengood-looking, but he did not
have the stature of a warrior.
Yeah, right, he was not.

(35:39):
He did not have the height, hedidn't, he wasn't big.
Yeah, he's just this youthful.
You know heartthrob.
Essentially, yeah, and andGoliath is just like.
This is ridiculous.
You you see, offended right, sohe's an.
Edward.
Right, but what does it sayabout his stature?
So this goes back to whenSamuel came to Annoint the next

(36:01):
king.
He looks at Eliab and he's likedon't look at a stature, don't
look how tall he is or howhandsome he is.
The Lord is not with him.
Mm-hmm but he gets to David,because then there's this whole
story of well, I got my youngest, still he's out in the fields
and like we'll bring him in andSamuel sees him.
But if you remember, samuelsays man looks at outward
appearance, but God looks atwhat the heart, the heart.

(36:23):
And then the Bible later says,talks about how David was a man
after God's own heart, right.
So the first thing that itemphasizes in terms of stature,
it's not the stature of the body, it's the stature of your heart
.
Mm-hmm right when it comes tothis fight.
So David had the stature.
It just wasn't the stature thatthe world looks at when it

(36:43):
comes to making decisions.
Right and we do that even todayright, we tend to think, you
know, I think David very easilycould have fell into the same
Temptation of, when he goes tofight Goliath is like well, I
don't have, I'm not big, I comemassive.
That dude is right.
Look at all these other biggerdudes and with higher stature

(37:04):
around me.
They can go fight it.
Right, they should go fightthis guy.
Like why am I the one who gonna?
go fight his own brother Rightthere right like and his own
brother let him right like.
Could you imagine that, even asan older brother like yeah,
I'll let you go out there andfight.
Even I'm saying all right, betLike you want to do that as an
older brother, especially if youhad the stature quote-quote

(37:26):
stature right, but it the theauthor makes the point.
The stature that David had wasthe stature of his heart, right
to approach this.
Yeah, well, what did he have interms of experience?
Well, one, there was two things.
One of the things that David hadsaid to Saul when he showed up
is that he talks about how hewasn't necessarily a man at war,
but he had battled beast toprotect his flock.

(37:49):
Right, that is making a play,though, again, from the
anointing that Samuel had giventhem.
Is that, hey, I'm stepping intothis to be the flock of Israel
or to fight for the flock ofIsrael.
Just as I was a shepherd for myfather's sheep, I will be a
shepherd to these people.

(38:09):
So one of the things that'skind of interesting about that
is that there's this probablywhole political thing going on
with this.
There may be a reason thatJesse had sent David to go
deliver milk and cheese at thefront lines to his brothers.
David being anointed by Samuel,that was obviously on his mind.

(38:30):
Oh, yeah, that all happenedbeforehand, right, so he was
probably showing up like so thehigh priest of Israel has
anointed me to be the next guy.
I don't know what that means.

Imran (38:40):
Oh, david would have known that this happened, right,
because he had to lay hands onan anointing, right?
So he was.
But that's what I'm saying.
He was, he was a teenager.
Oh, he was.
No, I mean, one of theanointing happened, but that's a
separate.

Ryan (38:50):
Oh, yeah, yeah yeah, I mean, he could even.
I mean, obviously, at the pointof the fight he was between
thirteen and sixteen and sixteenright so let's say he wants to
guess.
Literally he was sixteen yearsold and he was around thirteen
right.

Imran (39:03):
But he was already.
But then he got anointed.
He was already a shepherd,though, because I remember they
had to call him back to thatfield.

Ryan (39:07):
He had already been a shepherd.

Imran (39:08):
He was old enough to have responsibility in that way.

Ryan (39:10):
So, but he but remember Saul didn't know this happened.
Samuel did this kind of quietly.
Right.
So when David shows up, then hesees a wolf right threatening
Israel and he doesn't see any ofthe men come to step forward.
Much of this could have alsobeen a sense of responsibility
from David and say, well, if I'mreally going to be the shepherd

(39:33):
of Israel, at some point likeapparently Through God's high
priest told me that I need to gobe a shepherd, I need to go
fight the raveness wolf, right?
Yeah, so he's one, drawing onexperience, not as a man of war,
but as a shepherd, and that'swhat Israel needs is a shepherd
a shepherd to people, right.

(39:53):
So that's one piece, but thepiece that is directly, I think,
even more relevant to thelarger point of Samuel, for
Samuel and what is directly inthe text itself, and it's kind
of a clue.
But in verse 26, you know so,for days, goliath is coming out
and mocking Israel, yeah,particularly mocking Israel's
God.
He's mocking Yahweh, right,he's mocking their God and

(40:17):
shaming them every single day,because every single time Like
this is.
This is in verse.
Let's see 22 David left histhings with the keeper of
supplies, ran to the battlelines and asked his brothers how
they were.
As he was walking, talking withthem, goliath, the Philistine
champion from Gath, stepped outfrom his lines and shouted his
usual defiance, and David heardit.
Okay, whenever the Israelitessaw the man, they all fled from

(40:41):
him in great fear.
So, over and over, he keepstalking about the fear of Israel
, the fear of these men.
I think that is absolutely wild.

Imran (40:48):
It says over there in verse 16, Goliath the Israelite,
the Israelite, the Israelite.
Verse 16, that Goliath came outmorning and evening and took
his stand for 40 days, 20, twicea day for 40 days.

Ryan (40:57):
Think about that.
So, over and over, he's justmocking God, and this is going
to be our final point.
That feeds into our final pointof what this big story really
is.
I think, yeah, but.
But we'll save it right, onebite at a time, but going into
this.
So David hears this right,verse 26,.
David asked the men standingnear him what will be done for

(41:18):
the man who kills thisPhilistine and removes this
disgrace from Israel.
Right, because then hecontinues who is this
uncircumcised Philistine that heshould defy the armies of the
living God?

Imran (41:30):
Man, I remember when we did the crossing of the Red Sea
episode that the roasts that arein the Old Testament are just
like top notch.
Like I love the insults.
Like if someone walked up to meand was like you, uncircumcised
Philistine, I'd be like yo.
What?

Ryan (41:45):
What?
But what does that tie you to,though?
What does that mean?
Think to Israel.
What was the sign ofcircumcision?
Part of God's people Right.
What's that?
The part of God's people Right.
Now, that was the covenant signthat you belong under the
covenant of God, the promisesthat God has made, that people,

(42:06):
this is the sign that you belongto that Right, it was meant to
be a sign to remind you I'm incovenant with Yahweh, right?
Yeah?
So by Him going out and saying,who's this guy to come mock the
armies of the living God, thisuncircumcised dude, this dude
who's outside of this promise?
Yeah, why are we letting thisguy, who God has not made a
promise, to mock the people hehas made a promise to, in other

(42:29):
words, what he ultimately showsup to battle with?
He has a stature of heart, butthen he has the experience, not
of self, but the experience ofIsrael.
Yeah, he says do you guys notremember the Exodus?
Do you remember the Red Sea?
Do you remember there's anotherbig thing that had happened

(42:51):
prior in First Samuel that we'lltalk about here in a second.
But he is drawing on theexperiences of Israel and what
God has done for them.
He says we're the ones who havethe promise, we're the ones God
is with.
He is approaching the fightthrough the experience of God in
Israel, not the personalexperience of war, right, yeah,
so he's looking at itholistically in terms of promise

(43:13):
and covenant, because he hasthe stature of heart, right.
But then he says what equipmentdid he come?
Right, and this is in.
Let's see verse 45.
Right, so Goliath is mockingHim.
You come at me with sticks,right In the Philistine Church.

Imran (43:31):
Was he referring?

Ryan (43:31):
to David as the stick.
Yes, yeah, like a, he just likethis tiny dude.
Just these feeble things,because he came out not equipped
with anything except a sign.
Right, and we'll talk aboutthat here in a second.
But he comes out with thisswing, like he's like you're
going to come at me with sticks,yeah Right, like who is this?
You know Justin Bieber.

Imran (43:52):
You know, what I'm saying .

Ryan (43:53):
Like who's coming out to fight me with a stick?

Imran (43:56):
He's hitting me a madness .

Ryan (43:58):
So he starts mocking David .
But what does David respond to?
But David said to thePhilistine you come against me
with a sword and a spear and ajavelin.
Right, equipment Right.

Selena (44:07):
He's emphasizing the equipment.

Ryan (44:10):
But I come against you in the name of the Lord Almighty,
the God of the armies of Israel,whom you have defied All right.
So when everybody else was like, focused on the armor and the
weapons and the height andcombat experience, david comes
strapped with the stature ofheart for God, with the
experience of Israel and thename or the character of Yahweh

(44:32):
depending against them.
Yeah.
Which flows into, I would say,what we call the ultimate point.
That's kind of beingdemonstrated here, which is that
it's a polemic Now.
A what A polemic?
Now let me explain this, okay.
A polemic means a harshcriticism, or what I would just

(44:53):
say how it practically plays outin Scripture.
It is trash talk, oh and or, ifyou could say it this way, it's
God trolling the world.
The world yeah, it is awesomeand it is everywhere I read.
Since we've been on break,since I've been on break from
the podcast, you guys have beenstill working.
Yeah, I have read many books on, or you'd call polemic theology

(45:18):
.

Imran (45:21):
And I've read a lot of books actually these moments
where God reached into creationand just goes like LOL.

Ryan (45:25):
So we've talked about this before, if you remember.
Okay, let's talk about theChristmas story.
Right, remember about the star.
We said well, that's actuallyprobably in astrology play,
because every constellation wasgiven a region within the Roman
Empire.
They see the special star comeout within a constellation that
hadn't happened since and hasn'thappened since, and it came out

(45:46):
within the constellation ofJudea.
So that's how they looked atthe star and said a king has
been born in Judea.
They go to Jerusalem, becausethat's the capital, looking for
this new king.
Right, that's a play on theastrology beliefs of a pagan
society.
It was a Gentile belief.
Right yeah so what God.
We talked about this withGenesis.
One right that it's.

(46:07):
If you bring in and understandEgyptian creation mythology,
babylonian, sumerian mythologyof creation, he is taking
essentially the belief systems,but then he plays out their
belief systems in history, butto his purpose.
So let me give you a couple ofexamples.
Okay, because this iseverywhere and I can just tell

(46:30):
you like this, this has beensomething that I picked up on.
I just never had a goodconstruct of understanding like
categorically what this wasright and it's called polemics.
I found it.
That's why.
I read like Everything is fine.
Yeah.

Imran (46:42):
But like a good example.

Ryan (46:44):
So when Elijah is in his showdown with the priest of Baal
?
so they're not Mark Carmel rightthere's been a drought over the
land because Elijah prophesiedit.
He said a drought is going tocome over the land and that's
what happened.
The problem was it went on forthree years and Elijah was like,
hey, can you, lord, can youstop the drought, because we're

(47:05):
like we're starving, right.
So they decided to have theshowdown, right?
And they build altars on top ofMount Carmel and he says
whoever the God favors, orwhoever's altar he favors, right
is, is victorious, essentiallyright.
So of course, it says that afire from heaven came down,
struck Elijah's altar to Yahwehand they slayed the 500 prophets

(47:29):
of Baal.
And that starts this wholething with Jezebel and King Ahab
, right.
There's a whole story around it,but what we miss contextually
is this the reason Elijah calledfor a drought is because the
God Baal in Canaanite theologywas the God of rain and thunder.
So by him proclaiming on behalfof Yahweh, there's going to be

(47:55):
a drought that is showing Yahwehis more powerful in this
greater than Baal, right?
Yeah, when you didn't get to theactual fire from heaven.
There's different things withthis.
You know, Hebrew does not.
Hebrew did not have a name forlightning.
Okay, so when it talks aboutfire from heaven, it's probably
referring to lightning.
We like to make the big youknow, a volcano erupting over

(48:21):
here.
Right it was coming down whichis cool imagery, but but I think
that there's a reason, though,why you need maybe not hold that
view, which is this is that thebeliefs of Baal was not just
that he was the God of rain andthunder, but that he rode the
lightning.

Selena (48:38):
So when it?

Ryan (48:38):
talks about.
Whatever you know, god favorsmore.
You know is the one true God.
Essentially, he was thesuperior God by having lightning
strike the altar of Elijah.
And if Baal rides the lightning, then why is Baal?
That means Baal likes Yahwehmore.
Why is Baal endorsing Yahweh?

(48:58):
Yeah, you see how they're like.
If Baal is going to ride thelightning and he's choosing
Yahweh and choosing that altar,that is showing, at the very
least, even if it wasn't like,oh, we're monotheistic, now to
them they're at least the Yahwehsuperior, which is what God is
trying to do, right, so that'show he's able to go slay all the
priests 500 of them of Baal andget them.

(49:19):
Start kicking them out ofIsrael.
Right, that's what that wholeshowdown was.
It's a polemic.
God is using the beliefs toplay out his purpose, to show
his superiority over it, right?
Yeah, the crossing of the RedSea, because you brought that up
earlier.
That's another example.
There was a mythology withinEgypt about using certain magic

(49:42):
in the gods and being able tosplit water.
So there's a story where one ofsome of the magicians of
Pharaoh, his daughter orsomebody I'm trying to remember
it all, but his daughter orsomebody had dropped like a
necklace in the Nile River andhe's like I really want that
necklace back.
So he gets the magicians tosplit the water in two so

(50:04):
they're able to go out there andgrab the necklace, give it back
, yeah.

Imran (50:06):
Waters come back together .
Pastor had mentioned it.
It was that it was like the sonof the Pharaoh had all of these
women that would go out on thewater with him to make him feel
better, because he was like sador whatever.
And then one of the womendropped the necklace.

Selena (50:21):
Right, right.

Imran (50:22):
And so the guy was like, hey, split the water so we can
get this necklace back to thispretty girl.

Ryan (50:25):
So now you have Egypt chasing the Hebrews.
God splits not just the Nilebut now the entire Red Sea.
Right, he's using the wholeidea of blotting out the sun in
Exodus.
Well, they believe that the sunwas raw.
One of their superior gods wasraw, so by they believe that

(50:48):
because this is just basicpolytheistic belief right Is
that things happen in cycles.
So every time the sun rays,that's raw being born, and every
time it sets, he's dying andgoing to the underworld.
And there's this continuouscycle of that occurring, right.
So, by God when raw is coming upand he blots out the sun.

(51:10):
The Egyptians would have saidraw is being blotted out, which
means that his new life is beingstopped by Yahweh.
So it's creating a sense ofhopelessness to the Egyptians.
You see what I'm saying.
That's a polemic.
That is God taking beliefs andmyths of the contemporaries of
that region and he is playing itout in history to show his

(51:33):
superiority.

Selena (51:34):
Does that make sense.

Ryan (51:35):
So I was like I'm God over all of this, all of that.
So what you see here with Davidand Goliath is a polemic.
It's another example of this.
Wow, okay, it would have beenunderstood then for the
Philistine champion to come outand say you bring your champion
out, we're gonna fight this andsee how he's mocking their God.

(51:56):
The idea wasn't just simply I'ma superior fighter, take, you
know what I mean.
The idea was more my God isgonna work and act through me
and your God is gonna act andwork through you.
We're gonna fight this out.
So it's not really a battlebetween David and Goliath, it's
a battle between Yahweh andDagon who is the?
supreme God of Canaanitetheology.

Imran (52:18):
I think that that's interesting, but at least me
this is what I'm hearing is that, of all of the what do you call
it?
The Israelites yeah, theIsraelites that were there if
that was the way that theythought then, none of them felt
strong enough in their faiththat God would actually go out
and represent them in thatcombat, and what?

Ryan (52:38):
you actually find is that Goliath had deeper conviction
and faith into his God than anyof the Israelites had in theirs.
Right?
Isn't that sad, except forDavid.
So when David goes out and saysI come equipped in the name of
God, he's saying essentiallythis is not just a showdown of

(52:59):
this.
It's because the other thing Ithink people get wrong, which is
the exact opposite point theauthor's trying to make they
think this is an underdog storyof this little boy, david,
fighting this giant.
This is big underdog story ofGod using the underdog.
The reality of what is beingpainted is it is an underdog
story.
It's Goliath is the underdogbecause Goliath is one

(53:21):
representing a false God.
David is representing the realGod.
So if there's any underdog inthis story, it's Goliath.
But the Israelites failed tosee that.
They completely missed the factof using what David picked up
on was the experience of God.
Instead, they were looking soinward at themselves my

(53:42):
experience, my stature, myequipment compared to his.

Imran (53:45):
At this point, they've already done the walking around
the city seven times, or forseven days.

Ryan (53:50):
That was in Jericho, that was with Joshua.
Joshua was a couple hundredyears before this.
Okay, yeah.

Imran (53:56):
They've had a history already of God.

Ryan (53:58):
Of.

Imran (53:58):
God being faithful to them Right, but I mean, if they
also knew that they weren'tbeing faithful to God and it's
like, well, is God even gonnacome to my defense, to my
people's defense, in this moment, because I'm doing all these
things wrong or we as a peopleare doing all these things wrong
, kind of like in Judges theywere doing all this stuff wrong
and God kind of turned away andthen raised up a judge to

(54:20):
confront that thing that theywere doing wrong.

Ryan (54:22):
Yeah, they could have.
However, there is a story in 1Samuel, chapter five, and I'm
gonna save it for right nowbecause I wanna get into the
actual battle itself that thisis gonna feed into.
Okay.
But they had more recentexperiences and knowledge of God
defeating Dagon, okay.
So I could just make a littlepoint about polemics, though,

(54:43):
because a lot of people you know, like I'm reading this, I'm
like this makes so much moresense to me now, right, like
this is everything that I'vebeen like when you just study
yourself, you're like this iswhere I was going, right.
I just didn't have, and a lot ofpeople and I even had this
thought too, and just being anhonest skeptic is that this all
is great, but why isn't thisbelieved by most?

(55:07):
Why isn't it understood?
Why isn't this taught?
You know what I mean?
Yeah, as much as it should,like I'm able to.
Obviously there's enough peoplewho are writing books about it
within academia, but it's notbecoming the common perspective.
Right, why is that the case?
Right, and what I found isparticularly with when it comes
to the land of Cana.
We knew nothing really aboutthe Canaanites and their

(55:32):
religion up until about 1930.
Oh really, and we didn't evenreally know anything then.
What happened?
The big event that happenedthen was that it's called the
Ygarit text.
They found a series of about20,000 tablets that were all
within their massive templelibrary that was in northern

(55:53):
Syria.
Okay.
Which geographically.
I just want you to kind offollow how this aligns.
Right, we talk about thePhilistines and we talk about
these other people, but theywere all united under one actual
kingdom.
So they had a people, but theywere part of a larger kingdom,
the Canaanite kingdom, okay,okay, so they find about 20,000

(56:15):
tablets, what they call theYgarit text, and it was like
1928 or 29.
It took about 30 years for themto translate all of them.
Okay, so that puts you about1960s-ish, right?
Yeah, once it's translated,that's when it starts finally
getting looked at by scholarsand academia to start

(56:37):
understanding just basicMesopotamian history.
Right, so that takes aboutanother 30 years for that to
kind of get understood.
Yeah, so it's not until about1990, that you actually see some
biblical scholars looking atthis to understand references to
scripture.
But up until that point theonly reference we had of
anything Canaanite in terms ofreligion was what we got from

(56:59):
the Bible.

Selena (56:59):
Yeah, yeah, okay.

Ryan (57:01):
So you hear of Dagon, you hear of Baal Astoroth, all of
them.
We knew nothing about themoutside of the biblical text.
Some of the things we'd learnis that, well, there's a couple
of things.
One you see God's providenceplaying at the time that the
Israelites are brought out ofEgypt into the land of Cana
which is in the south of thislittle empire.

(57:23):
Ygarit was the, I guess, thecapital of the Canaanite kingdom
, which was in like all the wayup in northern Syria.
Okay, so the northern side waswhere the capital was.
So we're talking about thesouthern part of a kingdom.
What's happening, what we learn, is that the same time Joshua
is entering into the land ofCana, you have what they call

(57:43):
the sea people, who keep comingin, raiding and pillaging the
northern part of the kingdom.
Okay, now there's all.
These people have all sorts ofconspiracy theories about who
the sea people are because it'sreferenced they're references.

Imran (57:57):
Yeah, they're like who are the sea people.
Well, that's way too far away.

Selena (58:01):
It could be just Rome, or I mean, I guess on the time
depends on the time.

Imran (58:05):
No, Rome wasn't there, yet it was what most people
actually agree with.
Is that that's not there yet?

Ryan (58:12):
No, it was the tribal Greeks, so even before Greece
was really in a unified empire.
They're like all of these abunch of series of islands,
right yeah?
Like all those people, the seapeople.
They learned how to fare andthey started raiding.

Imran (58:26):
That was the big thing about Greece is that they had a
navy.
Right, yeah, they learned.
An empire at the time had anavy.

Ryan (58:32):
So in the northern part of the kingdom they're getting
raided and they're at war withthe sea people.
At that same time you gotmillions of Hebrews invading in
the south.
So if you have this kingdomwith your armies and you're
being invaded from the north andthe south, what are you gonna
defend?
Probably whatever's closest toyour capital, which was in the

(58:54):
north.
So that left them really weakin the south.
So when God led them into theland of promise, he chose a time
you see what I'm saying thatwas where they were the most
weak and vulnerable to make thatsuccessful Because if they
would have chosen the other time, they would have been able to
come down and crush them, butthey couldn't do that because of
the sea people.

Imran (59:14):
You see what I'm saying.
They're all folks up to thenorth.

Ryan (59:17):
But we just learned that right Couple other things we
learned about the CanaanitePantheon.
So we hear about Dagon, we hearabout Bale and Asteroth all
them.
What we learned is Dagon wasthe supreme, the top God of
Canaanite theology.
Bale is like his son, so thisis like Zeus and Apollo, right,

(59:37):
jupiter, mars.
there's always like that supremetop God of the Pantheon right,
dagon was the top dog withinCanaanite belief.
Why does that matter?
Because after this whole seriesof events, you see this shift
in biblical texts that it nolonger becomes about Dagon, it
becomes about Bale ohinteresting.

(59:59):
And Bale eventually becomesalmost worshiped as the more
supreme God within theirPantheon.
Why did that happen?
A lot of it has to do with whatwe're seeing in 1 Samuel God
defeats Dagon.

Selena (01:00:14):
Okay, you see what I'm saying.

Ryan (01:00:15):
Like God is defeating Dagon and then he goes and he
goes after his son.
Then God defeats Bale and thenGod starts to.
You see what I'm saying.
So you see this progression ofGod defeating the Mesopotamian
gods.
He starts in Egypt.
Now, as he defeats Egypt andrescues them out of Egypt and
defeated those gods, he nowshifts his war.
What's?

Imran (01:00:34):
fascinating there is that it's like God's showing his
power in a way that they wouldunderstand and that they would
also come to serve him.
Cause just going to them andsaying it's like God is Lord of
all, you should worship him,just like today.
If you go to someone whodoesn't believe in God and just
say, like there is a God, god isoverall, you should worship him
.
They're doing like.
I don't know what any of thatmeans.

(01:00:55):
Right, so it's like, but hereyou're seeing how God's
displaying his power andauthority in a way that those
people would understand, and yousee it in Egypt as well, when
the Israelites are leaving.
It's like God's displaying hispower and authority and showing
that I'm over all of these.
Through all of the.
What are the really bad things?
He does starts with a P, the,where he brings, like the, the

(01:01:20):
plagues.
That's what I'm looking for.
It's like through the plagues,he's showing how he is over all
one thing Everyone was adifferent.
God's day Yep exactly Over thatwhole period and then ultimately
when, when he splits the RedSea.
It's like that kind of greatshowing of power there.
So it's like he's showing whohe is, in a way, moses using his
staff.
Exactly, he's showing who he is.
His staffs were big to Egypt,yeah, yeah.

Ryan (01:01:41):
If you ever look at the hieroglyphics, all the pharaohs,
all have a staff.
Yeah.

Imran (01:01:46):
And it's all pointed out in the kind of the same way, in
the same way, in the same way.

Ryan (01:01:48):
Within the Egyptian belief , each one having different
precedent.
What's interesting is God givesMoses the least of the staffs
within Egyptian belief.

Imran (01:01:56):
And does the most with it .

Ryan (01:01:57):
And he does the most with it, playing out their myths in
history using the least of therods, like that's what I'm
saying.
Is God trolling them?
He just I'm trolling your God.
When he says I am a jealous God, this is what he means.
He's like I'm going to defeatall of them, Right?
He?

Imran (01:02:12):
starts to teach it.
That's so awesome.

Ryan (01:02:13):
Goes to Cana right, then he starts taking out the Greeks
and then, when you get to Jesus'times and the first century
church, you see him attackingRomans, outcycling the Romans.
Right, Like it's just.
But there's also a scarywarning that we're going to see
here with Goliath right Cause avery astute young child of mine,

(01:02:35):
when we were talking about this, asked a very fair question
that God not love Goliath?
Oh, you see what I'm saying.
So what was it about Goliaththat essentially condemned him
to this feat?

Selena (01:02:53):
Yeah, I think mocking God.

Ryan (01:02:55):
He was, but everybody was, and in fact, worshiping other
gods is a mocking of him, right?
Like, really, if anything, yousee a passionate zeal within
Goliath, like Goliath would havebeen a great ally to have on
the side of God's army.
Yeah, imagine that Goliath aszealous and passionate for
Yahweh as he was for Dago, right?

(01:03:15):
So there's a piece with that,and this is why the battle kind
of matters.

Imran (01:03:21):
All right, that's it for this week and I'm so excited to
get into this with you next weekon real Bible stories.
All right, so we're partneredwith Palms Church and 29 Palms
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We cannot wait to engage withyou and join with you again next
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