June 20, 2025 • 36 mins
Join me for this a continued multi-part series on the deterioration of the mental health field from the perspective of the professionals in the trenches. Psychotherapy has veered for many decades into reinforcing pathological narcissism and has been a handmaiden of diminishing functioning in the new generations.
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Dr. Mark McDonald's Work: https://dissidentmd.com/
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
And hello again everybody.
This is Real Clear Podcast and your host, Dr.
Lucas Klein.
Today's guest, Dr.
Mark McDonald, is a board certified psychiatrist.
He also is the author of the books in the show notes Below.
I suggest you click them and give them a look.
We're gonna be talking about the decline of the psychotherapy field from the perspective of the professionals.
(00:22):
Something very rarely done in public.
This is an ongoing multi-part series that I'm holding.
Previous episodes have included Dr.
Richard Creighton and just today on Real Clear podcasts.com.
I'll be releasing a very good episode with Yaku Van Zeal, who is a South African and Irish psychotherapist who see things deteriorating much the same way I do, and he has great insight to offer.
(00:48):
If you're listening through a podcast app, you'll be hearing only the first part of this conversation.
If you'd like to tune in for the full episode, go to real clear podcast.com
or click the link in the show notes below.
I am joined by Dr.
Mark McDonald, a board certified child, adolescent, and adult psychiatrist.
He also trained for a long, long time in psychoanalysis and opted out of that.
(01:09):
We might get into that.
And he is the author and host of Dissident md, a blog and also subscription and health website and politics website, as well as the co-host of the Informed Dissent podcast with his co-host Dr.
Jeff Barky.
So I've asked Dr.
McDonald to join me.
(01:30):
This is a follow-up and continuation of a mini part, a miniseries that is here on real clear podcast, uh, regarding the status of the mental health profession I first had on Dr.
Richard Creighton.
If you haven't had a chance to listen to that, folks, please do so and it will provide context for today's discussion.
(01:51):
Today's discussion is also a standalone and stand on its own talk.
Dr.
McDonald.
I wanted to have this multi-part discussion with various esteemed psychiatrists, analysts, and mental health professionals to talk about the status of the mental health field, um, largely from the perspective of the professional.
(02:16):
And I think that this is important and it has not been done very much.
Um, a lot of, a lot of analysts, a lot of therapists will talk privately about the dissolution of the field and how difficult it is to occupy now for various socioeconomic reasons, but hardly ever do you hear this broadcast and discussed in public.
(02:39):
I think that this is of the essence right now because as society becomes sicker and sicker, and I think there is real evidence to suggest that it is becoming sicker and sicker.
Much more in need of proper containing, uh, psychotherapeutic work.
Uh, it's not a good thing if the only reasonable therapists are ushered out of the profession for various reasons, which we'll get into today, that leaves the nation in quite a vulnerable position.
(03:10):
And so I wanna start off by asking you, Dr.
McDonald, what is the status of today's psychotherapy field of the broad mental health field? From the, from the per the perspective of a doctor such as yourself? Where do we stand? Well, if I were giving a State of the Union address on the state of psychotherapy in the United States, I would not come out as most presidents, if not all presidents do.
(03:39):
And state, uh.
It is good.
It is strong.
It is excellent.
It is actually the opposite.
It is weak.
It is poor.
It is on the verge of collapse, in my opinion, as a practicing psychiatrist in Los Angeles, seeing children, young adults, adults, families, couples, all forms of therapy, all forms of medication management therapy, as I see it, as I was trained for it, I believe as you were trained for it as well.
(04:05):
Since we underwent similar qualities and styles of training in the psychoanalytic uh, institutes, it is so far away from how we were trained and even how I began my practice 12, 13 years ago, that I am losing confidence that excellent therapy, even good therapy, will continue to any large, reasonable widespread degree outside of isolated pockets in very specific parts of the country.
(04:40):
That's the identical position from Dr.
Creon as well.
He thinks that only, uh, private enclaves can produce real therapy anymore.
Um, I'd like to start off with describing a few things.
Uh, it's very difficult sometimes for people to gain a grasp as to just what we're talking about.
Um, it can seem very theoretical and my discussion with Dr.
(05:02):
Radon was very theoretical and academic.
Um, I wanna get more on the ground level, uh, in addition to discussing our, our broad, uh, theory based and, and philosophical, philosophical objections to where things are going.
Here is a, a few things that I found just randomly today preparing for today's, uh, interview.
(05:25):
This is from the Institute of Contemporary Psychoanalysis in Los Angeles, and I want everyone to understand that is actually, these are bizarre things I'm gonna read, but.
Keep in mind, this is an institute that seeks to deepen postdoctoral and post therapy program training.
It's, it's actually intending to pursue, uh, a, a level of depth beyond training.
(05:52):
And this stuff is happening here.
Um, imagine what you'll find for the typical, generically trained therapist who pursues no additional training just as rogue on their own, the sort of pink haired, uh, self ascribed, self ascribing gurus of the world.
(06:13):
I would bring those people up and play them on video for the audience, but I don't think I could do so from a liability standpoint.
Because I'm, I'm, I'm harangued from the Goldwater Act, as are you.
Although you care about that less than me.
So let me, um, let me get into this, and I'm gonna just interrupt you briefly to say, please, that for those of your, your listeners who, uh, are not watching, but actually only listening to this as soon as you say ICP or the acronym for this institute, uh, Institute of Contemporary Psychoanalysis in Los Angeles, I started smiling, uh, because I can only imagine, uh, since I'm here in Los Angeles and know quite a bit about the community, what you are about to say, but I, I can't wait to hear your, uh, your examples.
(06:55):
So, uh, on bated breath, uh, and for people listening, you can watch this on Real Clear podcast.
If you're a paying member, you can listen to it free everywhere.
But if you wanna watch the two of us talk, go to my website, link below.
Okay.
ICP presents the fascist Turn.
Totalitarian objects and Perpetrator Fragments join us for a clinically rich and socially relevant discussion.
(07:21):
With renowned psychoanalyst and author, uh, across the globe, neo fascism is on the rise and democracy is at risk.
This is an interesting topic for psychoanalysis at the level of the individual, right? We treat people not nations.
This isn't a political science course, right? Um, it, it is not, but maybe they're gonna offer advanced courses.
(07:43):
Um, lemme get to the, to the point here.
The program objectives.
Participants will learn to identify transgenerational transmission of trauma, not the most unreasonable thing.
Participants will learn to identify internalized perpetrator inheritances.
(08:03):
Participants will learn to define totalitarian objects within themselves.
Participants will learn to define fascism.
Participants will learn to describe the link between neo fascism and internalized perpetrator inheritances, and participants will learn how to identify how these principles are applied in both clinical and cultural contexts.
(08:32):
This is an advanced program that you can actually get continuing education for the purpose of your license renewal in California and across the nation.
This, this is common and I have other examples that we'll get into today.
What's your reaction to that, Dr.
McDonald? This is not education.
(08:54):
This is indoctrination, and the higher you go in the food chain of these institutes, the more the slant of indoctrination becomes an emphasis.
Because the goal of this course, the goal overall of the training program at ICP and those of other.
Psychoanalytic institutes and god forbid, go into the more run of the mill programs that you just have to have a college degree and a, you know, a couple of signatures on a, on a document, including a, a loan document to pay the exorbitant fees to go out there and basically buy your license.
(09:29):
Many of them online.
Um, is not to develop critical thinking, inquiry, even an understanding of the history and theory of psychoanalysis.
It is to instill a, a set of doctrine into the mind of the trainee that will then carry forth in the treatment room, in the consultation room with the patient, which by the way, they're no longer called patients.
(09:54):
They're called clients, and we're not doctors, by the way, we're providers and we're not doctors anymore.
We're providers.
We're providers, and they're clients, which is a very transactional model, similar to a hairdresser, and I think this is, this is by design.
Because doctors and patients have an in internal and intrinsic relationship that is based upon some form of beneficence on the part of the physician who's treating the patient who is ill, who is lacking some, some form of autonomy of decision making.
(10:31):
Otherwise, it would just be a hairdressing appointment.
Mm-hmm.
And that is gone now.
It is completely erased.
In other words, the provider, as they call them, will enter the room with the patient based upon these, these trainings that they're now offering to the trainees in order to offer a service, which is then requested by the client.
(10:56):
And the provider is not allowed to question in any way the goodness, the beneficence of this service that the client is requesting.
It's simply there to fulfill a role, to dye the hair, to braid it, to put on the makeup in a way that the client wishes, even if it makes 'em look like a goth or, uh, a sadist or a devil.
(11:21):
Because who are you to judge whether this is actually beautiful or not? It's not up to you, it's the client's request.
It's a service and you're a provider.
And I think what you're, what you're seeing in all of the, the multi-syllabic, uh, nonsense lingo that you read from that seminar is in this vein, it's to say to the provider, your requirement is to show up with a set of, I would call it political ideology, not psychoanalytic or therapeutic ideology, which is very much in line with, I would say leftism or contemporary Marxism, where everyone is seen as a victim.
(12:00):
Certain specific classes of people are seen as well, basically.
Patriarchal, misogynistic, racist, homophobic, Islamophobic oppressors, and from that one must then assume that the victim, the client, the patient that's coming in, is going to be reassured and affirmed of that person's victim's status so that that patient or client can then leave the consulting room and go out into the world and feel really good about having been reassured that he or she's a victim.
(12:41):
That's basically what therapy is now, and that's what they're teaching in these institutes.
It might use a lot of very fancy language, but that's basically what it's boiled down to at this point.
And there is no longer any instilling in the training of the, the analyst, psycho or therapist to hold a boundary, a position.
(13:02):
To question, to challenge anything that the patient brings into the consulting room, but rather simply to respond with politically correct ideology and affirmation of whatever the victim status is of the patient coming in.
That seems like a major and paradoxical problem because if narcissism is ascendant in society, as I think everyone knows that it is, and it measurably is by the way, um, how could you strengthen somebody's ego or self by con, by reaffirming their experience that they are products of contextual misfortune, because then they're subject only to the whims of the, of context of what's around them.
(13:43):
So how, how could they go out into the world feeling or, or functioning stronger from such treatment? They can only do that to the extent that the world in which they're sent out into and the world in which they live, work, and play.
Also mirrors the false reality that they're preached to and taught and affirmed by in the consulting room.
(14:09):
And that's one of the key elements that allows this to perpetuate outside of the largely leftist government controlled urban America out in the wilderness, out in the, the, the far flung reaches of the, the middle part of the country.
None of this flies, none of it because reality comes and puts a boot stamp over it and crushes it under its own weight.
(14:37):
But if you are being told by every billboard, by every check in the mail that you get from the government by every free EBT and uh, transport coupon that you receive in the mail from the government and.
Every shopkeeper that looks just like you with 16 piercings and purple hair that uses words like stakeholders and partners rather than colleagues.
(15:09):
You don't have the reality testing that the real world would naturally demand of you, and therefore you can just keep this cycle going, reaffirming a false reality that is then reinforced in your little bubble of urban America until, of course, eventually reality like death and taxes always comes and wins, and that at that point, it is an utterly crushing, psychologically devastating realization.
(15:38):
Very similar to what you're seeing now with women in their forties and fifties who were burning their bras in the sixties and seventies, rejecting men, rejecting marriage and rejecting pregnancy who are now on the verge of suicide.
Abject depression, crying into their ice cream with their three cats at home, having wasted their entire fertile years on nothing but making money.
(16:05):
And they're miserable.
And that's where the patients are gonna be in a few years.
If anyone would like to send hate mail, that would goes to mark@dissidentmd.com.
And thank you for your time, Dr.
McDonald.
I gotta go right now.
Uh, you have some very strong positions and, um, you don't hold back.
So, uh, I wanna encourage people to stay listening in because even if you don't agree with everything that Dr.
(16:32):
McDonald is saying, um, he's striking at the cord of something that I think, um, is relatable to almost every practicing therapist right now who's listening.
And so let's try to get more toward the first factor of all of what you just said.
Um, the, the.
It makes conceptual sense to me that if you're describing an an, an ascendant narcissism in people, and you said a lot, so I'm not just saying that that's what you're talking about, but one thing that came to mind was, um, you're describing an insistence on the part of the typical patient that the external surround, uh, become, uh, commensurate and become a symphonic, um, composure, uh, uh, composition that is of their internal preferences.
(17:25):
Uh, and that really is a way, is that that's one way of describing narcissistic disruptions, especially as they occur in the face of life's impingement.
Impingement by definition as they occur across the lifespan are things that happen that do not go along with your preferred ways of being.
They don't gratify.
(17:45):
And so on, and you need to be strong to get through them.
Um, marriage is an impingement in some ways, as much as it is lovely.
Having children is a major impingement.
Having a disagreement with somebody is an impingement, uh, in some way.
Uh, it is, it is non complimentary.
Um, discussions that are useful with other people can only be, uh, such that you learn from, if, if they are in some ways impingement upon your preferred ways of thinking.
(18:16):
And so this, this concerns me.
What you're describing concerns me, and I'm hearing it from many different therapists and profoundly talented psychoanalysts around the world who are describing that for the first time in their career, they're, they're getting, um, they're getting frustrated, uh, because, well, I guess they're getting impinged upon, but you know, they're having, they're having the process of therapy seem.
(18:44):
Less and less, um, in, uh, tenable less and less profitable for themselves and the patient.
People seem less able to, to know what it is that therapy is now that, that they're up to when they come in the door.
Um, patients, I'm finding that there, there's kind of an aggression to people coming in by calling me Lucas, you know, the emails and messages, Hey, Lucas, or sometimes no address at all, just this is what I want when you're available.
(19:13):
Um, you know, there's always been that kind of functioning in the world, but now it's just about every communication.
It's just about every communication.
Um, I think a lot of the old guard psychoanalysts don't understand this because they have, they've been in, um, longstanding, highly manicured, uh, uh, uh, private practices.
(19:39):
And they've got a referral circle and everything's kind of, there's a filtration process for the water that flows in.
But if you're practicing like 98% of the mental health field is, uh, like I am, I'm a self-made man and everyone finds me in the wild.
I get a much wider range of functioning, much, much less of a restriction in the range of sampling of society than the old guard analysts, um, who, who are, you know, in their sixties, seventies, and eighties now.
(20:09):
And I'm seeing, and, and I think you've been seeing, um, really what's out there in the wild.
I, I'm, I'm concerned.
I really am.
Um, you know, many, the vast majority of my patients are just excellent and it's a good experience, but there's a growing contingent of people, and it is growing at a rapid rate.
(20:30):
Who, who, who, who events the kind of of profile that you described, the kind of.
The first thing is a, is a social demographic.
Um, uh, the first thing is making sure that language is proper and correct the, you know, those are on the vanguard of what it means to seek treatment.
(20:52):
And, um, that's a difference.
That's a, that's a big change from even, even seven to 10 years ago.
It wasn't like that.
Um, now you, you are, um, mainly in forensics now.
Is that right? And you've kind of I have moved more into forensics Right.
For the reasons you just described and, and me as well.
(21:12):
And that's been more of a recent development.
C can you tell me a bit more about your, your view of the private practice, um, interaction and, and, and what caused you as, as the provider to say to yourself, you know, I'm, I'm not so sure about this anymore.
(21:33):
Well, let's cut right to the heart of it.
What is therapy meant to offer and provide? And this encompasses our shifts and movements into forensics, I think very beautifully.
There are a lot of things one could include in this answer, but I wanna focus on one that I think is critical to the discussion, the pursuit of truth.
I believe that the therapist's goal, the objected, the therapist's fiduciary responsibility is to encourage and support the patient in discovering, and then even as, perhaps even more importantly, accepting what is true.
(22:12):
Someone who can acknowledge and accept the truth is generally a higher functioning, psychologically speaking individual than one who cannot do that truth is no longer valued in our world.
I.
Perception is valued, power is valued.
(22:33):
Tribalism is valued.
Tribalism is not based on truth.
Tribalism is based on protecting the herd and wiping out anyone who is outside of that group.
We achieved greatness in Western civilization because we went beyond the herd.
In fact, we decided, we developed an idea intellectually that it doesn't matter what herd you belong to, it doesn't matter what you look like.
(22:58):
It doesn't matter what bare skin you're wearing.
It doesn't matter what side of the river you were born on.
What matters is the ideas that you share with others.
The United States is the unique example of that experience in world history, and that's in my view why the United States has prospered so much.
In addition to our concepts of freedom, obviously, and limited government, which is all going by the wayside today, just as in the world in the therapy room, truth is no longer exemplified or taught or searched for or.
(23:30):
Even desired by either the patient or by the therapist.
One of the reasons, one of the reasons I wanna say one more thing why we, I believe are magnetized by forensics is that that is the one area in psychological occupation or psychiatric occupation where truth is still valued.
(23:55):
Mm-hmm.
And still desired.
And that's what we're compensated for, right? That's what we are demanded to provide.
We are told it doesn't matter what the, I'm not gonna say patient, we call them applicants or claimants that we're evaluating for legal purposes are actually saying, and what they want, which is they want to be found very, very sick in most cases, so they can get money.
(24:18):
What matters and what only matters is what is the truth.
We are not there to treat them.
We are not there to affirm them.
We are not there to have any emotion relationship with them.
We are there to receive, compile information and data and provide a nuanced, thoughtful, clinically informed opinion, whether they like it or not.
That's what we are mandated to do, and to some degree, that's what we used to do as therapists.
(24:42):
That was our mandate, and that's what the patients wanted too.
But they don't want that anymore.
They don't want the truth, they can't handle the truth.
They want to feel good, and our job is to make them feel that way.
That's why things have changed.
It's so interesting that you say that, and I, I agree with what you've said.
Of course on ICPs website, it says, when you load up the homepage, this is a dynamic, progressive, diverse training program, which exists in order to treat emotional discomfort.
(25:20):
And is an avenue for self discovery.
That's what the breast was for.
That's why the nipple was discovered and the milk began flowing into the baby's mouth to you're actually, you, you're right.
Exploration.
You're right.
Not just linguistically and developmentally, but also in terms of declining and psychoanalysis.
(25:42):
No namesake of mine.
Um, absolutely correct.
And you know, um, I've been wondering what happened to the concept of normal in the field of psychotherapy, there's no normal anymore, and without normal there is no healthy.
And without healthy, there is no benchmark against which to help patients understand what needs to be improved so that their quality of life can be so improved.
(26:14):
Um, have you seen that as well? Normal is now considered a pejorative.
Yeah, it's like an oppression because it constrains you away from meandering and philandering and deviating into an unhealthy, perverse, and self-destructive and other destructive path of life and course of action.
(26:40):
Now, why would people, why, why would there be a growing contingent, uh, like this? Again, the vast majority of my patients, actually now 100%, because I screen very, very carefully now, uh, I'm like you, um, I have now started to screen very, very carefully so that the outcome and process can be mutually beneficial.
(27:02):
It can be, I can have a purposeful experience and the patient can have, um, a, a, a useful psychoanalytic process.
The, the screening, I, I believe, is an ethical mandate.
Um, on my part, uh, why, why would there be a growing contingent of people who prefer to, to have an, to not be treated effectively? Uh, I'm not sure if I'm saying that correctly.
(27:29):
Well, I have many sources of information from the local K through 12 educational system as well as universities on the ground, employees as well as students, GSIs, graduate student instructors, administrators who feed me information.
Mm-hmm.
Frequently.
And I can say without any doubt that all levels of our education, and that comes from preschool, K through 12 graduate, uh, postgraduate training without any exceptions.
(27:57):
Now, whether it's public, private, government, doesn't matter with some exceptions in, uh, Jewish, Orthodox and, uh, Catholic, uh, education.
And I say exceptions because even there, there's some issues.
Education today.
This is of course the people that are being fed into our practices as they graduate year after year.
All the way up to the postgraduate level is premised on keeping the students feeling good about themselves and bolstering their egos rather than challenging them to grow, challenging them to develop resilience and demanding of them.
(28:43):
The holding capacity that is required to assess information, especially first line information, primary source information, consider it, criticize it, challenge it, and then form one's opinion and response to it.
(29:03):
None of that is being asked of students today at all.
None of it, and so is we do not have the capacity for it.
What, what is being asked? What is there some sort of Montessori, uh, idea that's creeping through education self? It's even worse than that because Montessori at least encouraged exploration of the environment today.
(29:23):
The first thing that a child does when he walks into a classroom is he sits down and takes out his tablet and he begins looking at a screen and he looks at that screen while the teacher is instructing in the front of the classroom, utterly ignoring the instructor.
He is not given a book.
(29:44):
He does not have any tactile experience of touching actual books.
He also is not asked to write with his hands.
Wow.
He's asked to type, so he does not have any tactile experience of writing or taking notes.
What are, what is this generation growing up like this? What are they going to look like? What, what is their functional capacity when they come of age? They have none.
(30:10):
They use AI to produce work and they use Google to receive information.
They do not use their own brains.
They do not have a resource within their own brains of information, of maps, of capacities to calculate, of references to art, to history, to music.
(30:33):
They are essentially a blank slate and a robotic manipulator to take data in and then spit data back out.
They do not have a mind of their own.
That's so scary.
You know? It's horrific for the future, the future of of the world really.
But Western SIV in particular, and that's interesting because the data on IQ is that it was steadily increasing until around 2018 and then it started to dip.
(30:59):
And it may be that the, um, inception of the iPhone in 2013 is when it became really prominent.
Um, may have reached its five-year developmental crest.
Started to take hold in the reduction of the, of the cognitive processing of the younger generations.
Now we're seeing IQ dip, um, below.
(31:20):
Uh, gosh, this is really, um, well this is the answer to your question is where is it coming from? It's a feeder program.
This is where it's coming from and it's nearly universal.
And these are the patients that we're getting now because they're now one generation plus in, and they're starting to naturally develop the really, the, the fruit of this absolute failure of social and academic education.
(31:54):
And that manifests itself in severe personality and emotional disorders.
Hmm.
I wonder what the role of a psychotherapist will be in 10 years.
Will it, will it even be recognizable from say, a 1980s to 1990s, you know, heyday of psychoanalysis, analyst? Or will it, you know what it's gonna be? It's gonna be online, 20 minute coaching.
(32:23):
Mm-hmm.
That's an affirmation sessions.
That's what it's gonna be.
So in, in terms of, you know, I often get requests for a, of course free 15 minute, you know, or 10 minute consultation, and I don't do them anymore.
I did them very briefly, but of course, it's a silly idea.
(32:46):
You, you can't get to know anything about yourself no less the complex interaction between you and another human in 10 minutes.
Um, so we have this brevity culture that you're describing, and it, it, it's, it's based on a facile understanding of, of, of information processing and human life and.
When I did have those, when I did offer those, it, it was sort of like a, um, it was like I was asked to perform a dance for somebody, explain to me your way of working and how you would treat me, which is very, it's like, how in the hell could I possibly answer that? Um, it's like, you know, you go to a, to a, an oncologist and say, in 10 minutes, please describe to me the full extent of your training and delivery of services.
(33:41):
No one would think to do such a thing.
Um, I, I think the entire basis of understanding for what it is to engage in, in really any process of depth through interaction.
Forget psychotherapy for a moment, any depth process with another person, seems in peril what you're describing.
(34:05):
Is like the matrix.
Well, what, what a therapy requires, unlike surgery is the development of a relationship with another human being.
I don't need a relationship with my surgeon.
He could be the biggest asshole in the world.
I don't care.
I prefer if they are, frankly it, it means that they're probably so narcissistic and arrogant that any flaw, any error in their treatment would be so devastating that they're gonna do everything it takes, including divorcing their 17th wife in order to make sure that my surgery is perfect.
(34:36):
That's the guy I want.
I don't want a nice surgeon.
I want an asshole that gets the job done, like the guy that goes out into war.
I don't want a nice affirming transgender vegan with a skirt going out with an AR 15.
I want a guy that doesn't care and doesn't blink an eye when the head explodes like a watermelon at a miles distance with a sniper rifle, and he licks his lips and goes, got another one, and then notches his gun.
(35:01):
That's the guy I want in the war.
So these patients that are coming into us now, they don't even know how to engage in a relationship with us because they do not have the experience of having a relationship with themselves.
They are never alone.
They are, they are caring and AI pocket friend in their, in their, in their pants 24 7.
(35:27):
That's a's sad right there.
I mean that I, I feel a real sadness for that generation.
I really do.
And when I'm out, uh, uh, viewing the younger generation, say at a grocery store or, or something like that, I see such a, a, um, a confusion in them.
Such a, such a, a lackluster demeanor that it makes me, well, number one, grateful that I didn't grow up in, in such an imperial generation.
(35:54):
Oh God, can you imagine? I can't imagine that.
But also really sad for them.
I mean, you can see the kind of, um, flattening of their affect.
If they're not equipped to go into a, a, a proper well constructed psychotherapy for the purpose of, and I'm not even sure if such a thing is, is really designed to help these sorts of, these sorts of impediments.
(36:19):
Um, I mean we're, we're really forecasting a sort of doom, aren't we? And from here, click the link in the show notes below, or go to real clear podcast.com.
Become a member and listen to this and all full episodes.
Thanks very much.
And hello again everybody.
This is Real Clear Podcast and your host, Dr.
Lucas Klein.
Today's guest, Dr.
Mark McDonald, is a board certified psychiatrist.
He also is the author of the books in the show notes Below.
I suggest you click them and give them a look.
We're gonna be talking about the decline of the psychotherapy field from the perspective of the professionals.
(00:22):
Something very rarely done in public.
This is an ongoing multi-part series that I'm holding.
Previous episodes have included Dr.
Richard Creighton and just today on Real Clear podcasts.com.
I'll be releasing a very good episode with Yaku Van Zeal, who is a South African and Irish psychotherapist who see things deteriorating much the same way I do, and he has great insight to offer.
(00:48):
If you're listening through a podcast app, you'll be hearing only the first part of this conversation.
If you'd like to tune in for the full episode, go to real clear podcast.com
or click the link in the show notes below.
I am joined by Dr.
Mark McDonald, a board certified child, adolescent, and adult psychiatrist.
He also trained for a long, long time in psychoanalysis and opted out of that.
(01:09):
We might get into that.
And he is the author and host of Dissident md, a blog and also subscription and health website and politics website, as well as the co-host of the Informed Dissent podcast with his co-host Dr.
Jeff Barky.
So I've asked Dr.
McDonald to join me.
(01:30):
This is a follow-up and continuation of a mini part, a miniseries that is here on real clear podcast, uh, regarding the status of the mental health profession I first had on Dr.
Richard Creighton.
If you haven't had a chance to listen to that, folks, please do so and it will provide context for today's discussion.
(01:51):
Today's discussion is also a standalone and stand on its own talk.
Dr.
McDonald.
I wanted to have this multi-part discussion with various esteemed psychiatrists, analysts, and mental health professionals to talk about the status of the mental health field, um, largely from the perspective of the professional.
(02:16):
And I think that this is important and it has not been done very much.
Um, a lot of, a lot of analysts, a lot of therapists will talk privately about the dissolution of the field and how difficult it is to occupy now for various socioeconomic reasons, but hardly ever do you hear this broadcast and discussed in public.
(02:39):
I think that this is of the essence right now because as society becomes sicker and sicker, and I think there is real evidence to suggest that it is becoming sicker and sicker.
Much more in need of proper containing, uh, psychotherapeutic work.
Uh, it's not a good thing if the only reasonable therapists are ushered out of the profession for various reasons, which we'll get into today, that leaves the nation in quite a vulnerable position.
(03:10):
And so I wanna start off by asking you, Dr.
McDonald, what is the status of today's psychotherapy field of the broad mental health field? From the, from the per the perspective of a doctor such as yourself? Where do we stand? Well, if I were giving a State of the Union address on the state of psychotherapy in the United States, I would not come out as most presidents, if not all presidents do.
(03:39):
And state, uh.
It is good.
It is strong.
It is excellent.
It is actually the opposite.
It is weak.
It is poor.
It is on the verge of collapse, in my opinion, as a practicing psychiatrist in Los Angeles, seeing children, young adults, adults, families, couples, all forms of therapy, all forms of medication management therapy, as I see it, as I was trained for it, I believe as you were trained for it as well.
(04:05):
Since we underwent similar qualities and styles of training in the psychoanalytic uh, institutes, it is so far away from how we were trained and even how I began my practice 12, 13 years ago, that I am losing confidence that excellent therapy, even good therapy, will continue to any large, reasonable widespread degree outside of isolated pockets in very specific parts of the country.
(04:40):
That's the identical position from Dr.
Creon as well.
He thinks that only, uh, private enclaves can produce real therapy anymore.
Um, I'd like to start off with describing a few things.
Uh, it's very difficult sometimes for people to gain a grasp as to just what we're talking about.
Um, it can seem very theoretical and my discussion with Dr.
(05:02):
Radon was very theoretical and academic.
Um, I wanna get more on the ground level, uh, in addition to discussing our, our broad, uh, theory based and, and philosophical, philosophical objections to where things are going.
Here is a, a few things that I found just randomly today preparing for today's, uh, interview.
(05:25):
This is from the Institute of Contemporary Psychoanalysis in Los Angeles, and I want everyone to understand that is actually, these are bizarre things I'm gonna read, but.
Keep in mind, this is an institute that seeks to deepen postdoctoral and post therapy program training.
It's, it's actually intending to pursue, uh, a, a level of depth beyond training.
(05:52):
And this stuff is happening here.
Um, imagine what you'll find for the typical, generically trained therapist who pursues no additional training just as rogue on their own, the sort of pink haired, uh, self ascribed, self ascribing gurus of the world.
(06:13):
I would bring those people up and play them on video for the audience, but I don't think I could do so from a liability standpoint.
Because I'm, I'm, I'm harangued from the Goldwater Act, as are you.
Although you care about that less than me.
So let me, um, let me get into this, and I'm gonna just interrupt you briefly to say, please, that for those of your, your listeners who, uh, are not watching, but actually only listening to this as soon as you say ICP or the acronym for this institute, uh, Institute of Contemporary Psychoanalysis in Los Angeles, I started smiling, uh, because I can only imagine, uh, since I'm here in Los Angeles and know quite a bit about the community, what you are about to say, but I, I can't wait to hear your, uh, your examples.
(06:55):
So, uh, on bated breath, uh, and for people listening, you can watch this on Real Clear podcast.
If you're a paying member, you can listen to it free everywhere.
But if you wanna watch the two of us talk, go to my website, link below.
Okay.
ICP presents the fascist Turn.
Totalitarian objects and Perpetrator Fragments join us for a clinically rich and socially relevant discussion.
(07:21):
With renowned psychoanalyst and author, uh, across the globe, neo fascism is on the rise and democracy is at risk.
This is an interesting topic for psychoanalysis at the level of the individual, right? We treat people not nations.
This isn't a political science course, right? Um, it, it is not, but maybe they're gonna offer advanced courses.
(07:43):
Um, lemme get to the, to the point here.
The program objectives.
Participants will learn to identify transgenerational transmission of trauma, not the most unreasonable thing.
Participants will learn to identify internalized perpetrator inheritances.
(08:03):
Participants will learn to define totalitarian objects within themselves.
Participants will learn to define fascism.
Participants will learn to describe the link between neo fascism and internalized perpetrator inheritances, and participants will learn how to identify how these principles are applied in both clinical and cultural contexts.
(08:32):
This is an advanced program that you can actually get continuing education for the purpose of your license renewal in California and across the nation.
This, this is common and I have other examples that we'll get into today.
What's your reaction to that, Dr.
McDonald? This is not education.
(08:54):
This is indoctrination, and the higher you go in the food chain of these institutes, the more the slant of indoctrination becomes an emphasis.
Because the goal of this course, the goal overall of the training program at ICP and those of other.
Psychoanalytic institutes and god forbid, go into the more run of the mill programs that you just have to have a college degree and a, you know, a couple of signatures on a, on a document, including a, a loan document to pay the exorbitant fees to go out there and basically buy your license.
(09:29):
Many of them online.
Um, is not to develop critical thinking, inquiry, even an understanding of the history and theory of psychoanalysis.
It is to instill a, a set of doctrine into the mind of the trainee that will then carry forth in the treatment room, in the consultation room with the patient, which by the way, they're no longer called patients.
(09:54):
They're called clients, and we're not doctors, by the way, we're providers and we're not doctors anymore.
We're providers.
We're providers, and they're clients, which is a very transactional model, similar to a hairdresser, and I think this is, this is by design.
Because doctors and patients have an in internal and intrinsic relationship that is based upon some form of beneficence on the part of the physician who's treating the patient who is ill, who is lacking some, some form of autonomy of decision making.
(10:31):
Otherwise, it would just be a hairdressing appointment.
Mm-hmm.
And that is gone now.
It is completely erased.
In other words, the provider, as they call them, will enter the room with the patient based upon these, these trainings that they're now offering to the trainees in order to offer a service, which is then requested by the client.
(10:56):
And the provider is not allowed to question in any way the goodness, the beneficence of this service that the client is requesting.
It's simply there to fulfill a role, to dye the hair, to braid it, to put on the makeup in a way that the client wishes, even if it makes 'em look like a goth or, uh, a sadist or a devil.
(11:21):
Because who are you to judge whether this is actually beautiful or not? It's not up to you, it's the client's request.
It's a service and you're a provider.
And I think what you're, what you're seeing in all of the, the multi-syllabic, uh, nonsense lingo that you read from that seminar is in this vein, it's to say to the provider, your requirement is to show up with a set of, I would call it political ideology, not psychoanalytic or therapeutic ideology, which is very much in line with, I would say leftism or contemporary Marxism, where everyone is seen as a victim.
(12:00):
Certain specific classes of people are seen as well, basically.
Patriarchal, misogynistic, racist, homophobic, Islamophobic oppressors, and from that one must then assume that the victim, the client, the patient that's coming in, is going to be reassured and affirmed of that person's victim's status so that that patient or client can then leave the consulting room and go out into the world and feel really good about having been reassured that he or she's a victim.
(12:41):
That's basically what therapy is now, and that's what they're teaching in these institutes.
It might use a lot of very fancy language, but that's basically what it's boiled down to at this point.
And there is no longer any instilling in the training of the, the analyst, psycho or therapist to hold a boundary, a position.
(13:02):
To question, to challenge anything that the patient brings into the consulting room, but rather simply to respond with politically correct ideology and affirmation of whatever the victim status is of the patient coming in.
That seems like a major and paradoxical problem because if narcissism is ascendant in society, as I think everyone knows that it is, and it measurably is by the way, um, how could you strengthen somebody's ego or self by con, by reaffirming their experience that they are products of contextual misfortune, because then they're subject only to the whims of the, of context of what's around them.
(13:43):
So how, how could they go out into the world feeling or, or functioning stronger from such treatment? They can only do that to the extent that the world in which they're sent out into and the world in which they live, work, and play.
Also mirrors the false reality that they're preached to and taught and affirmed by in the consulting room.
(14:09):
And that's one of the key elements that allows this to perpetuate outside of the largely leftist government controlled urban America out in the wilderness, out in the, the, the far flung reaches of the, the middle part of the country.
None of this flies, none of it because reality comes and puts a boot stamp over it and crushes it under its own weight.
(14:37):
But if you are being told by every billboard, by every check in the mail that you get from the government by every free EBT and uh, transport coupon that you receive in the mail from the government and.
Every shopkeeper that looks just like you with 16 piercings and purple hair that uses words like stakeholders and partners rather than colleagues.
(15:09):
You don't have the reality testing that the real world would naturally demand of you, and therefore you can just keep this cycle going, reaffirming a false reality that is then reinforced in your little bubble of urban America until, of course, eventually reality like death and taxes always comes and wins, and that at that point, it is an utterly crushing, psychologically devastating realization.
(15:38):
Very similar to what you're seeing now with women in their forties and fifties who were burning their bras in the sixties and seventies, rejecting men, rejecting marriage and rejecting pregnancy who are now on the verge of suicide.
Abject depression, crying into their ice cream with their three cats at home, having wasted their entire fertile years on nothing but making money.
(16:05):
And they're miserable.
And that's where the patients are gonna be in a few years.
If anyone would like to send hate mail, that would goes to mark@dissidentmd.com.
And thank you for your time, Dr.
McDonald.
I gotta go right now.
Uh, you have some very strong positions and, um, you don't hold back.
So, uh, I wanna encourage people to stay listening in because even if you don't agree with everything that Dr.
(16:32):
McDonald is saying, um, he's striking at the cord of something that I think, um, is relatable to almost every practicing therapist right now who's listening.
And so let's try to get more toward the first factor of all of what you just said.
Um, the, the.
It makes conceptual sense to me that if you're describing an an, an ascendant narcissism in people, and you said a lot, so I'm not just saying that that's what you're talking about, but one thing that came to mind was, um, you're describing an insistence on the part of the typical patient that the external surround, uh, become, uh, commensurate and become a symphonic, um, composure, uh, uh, composition that is of their internal preferences.
(17:25):
Uh, and that really is a way, is that that's one way of describing narcissistic disruptions, especially as they occur in the face of life's impingement.
Impingement by definition as they occur across the lifespan are things that happen that do not go along with your preferred ways of being.
They don't gratify.
(17:45):
And so on, and you need to be strong to get through them.
Um, marriage is an impingement in some ways, as much as it is lovely.
Having children is a major impingement.
Having a disagreement with somebody is an impingement, uh, in some way.
Uh, it is, it is non complimentary.
Um, discussions that are useful with other people can only be, uh, such that you learn from, if, if they are in some ways impingement upon your preferred ways of thinking.
(18:16):
And so this, this concerns me.
What you're describing concerns me, and I'm hearing it from many different therapists and profoundly talented psychoanalysts around the world who are describing that for the first time in their career, they're, they're getting, um, they're getting frustrated, uh, because, well, I guess they're getting impinged upon, but you know, they're having, they're having the process of therapy seem.
(18:44):
Less and less, um, in, uh, tenable less and less profitable for themselves and the patient.
People seem less able to, to know what it is that therapy is now that, that they're up to when they come in the door.
Um, patients, I'm finding that there, there's kind of an aggression to people coming in by calling me Lucas, you know, the emails and messages, Hey, Lucas, or sometimes no address at all, just this is what I want when you're available.
(19:13):
Um, you know, there's always been that kind of functioning in the world, but now it's just about every communication.
It's just about every communication.
Um, I think a lot of the old guard psychoanalysts don't understand this because they have, they've been in, um, longstanding, highly manicured, uh, uh, uh, private practices.
(19:39):
And they've got a referral circle and everything's kind of, there's a filtration process for the water that flows in.
But if you're practicing like 98% of the mental health field is, uh, like I am, I'm a self-made man and everyone finds me in the wild.
I get a much wider range of functioning, much, much less of a restriction in the range of sampling of society than the old guard analysts, um, who, who are, you know, in their sixties, seventies, and eighties now.
(20:09):
And I'm seeing, and, and I think you've been seeing, um, really what's out there in the wild.
I, I'm, I'm concerned.
I really am.
Um, you know, many, the vast majority of my patients are just excellent and it's a good experience, but there's a growing contingent of people, and it is growing at a rapid rate.
(20:30):
Who, who, who, who events the kind of of profile that you described, the kind of.
The first thing is a, is a social demographic.
Um, uh, the first thing is making sure that language is proper and correct the, you know, those are on the vanguard of what it means to seek treatment.
(20:52):
And, um, that's a difference.
That's a, that's a big change from even, even seven to 10 years ago.
It wasn't like that.
Um, now you, you are, um, mainly in forensics now.
Is that right? And you've kind of I have moved more into forensics Right.
For the reasons you just described and, and me as well.
(21:12):
And that's been more of a recent development.
C can you tell me a bit more about your, your view of the private practice, um, interaction and, and, and what caused you as, as the provider to say to yourself, you know, I'm, I'm not so sure about this anymore.
(21:33):
Well, let's cut right to the heart of it.
What is therapy meant to offer and provide? And this encompasses our shifts and movements into forensics, I think very beautifully.
There are a lot of things one could include in this answer, but I wanna focus on one that I think is critical to the discussion, the pursuit of truth.
I believe that the therapist's goal, the objected, the therapist's fiduciary responsibility is to encourage and support the patient in discovering, and then even as, perhaps even more importantly, accepting what is true.
(22:12):
Someone who can acknowledge and accept the truth is generally a higher functioning, psychologically speaking individual than one who cannot do that truth is no longer valued in our world.
I.
Perception is valued, power is valued.
(22:33):
Tribalism is valued.
Tribalism is not based on truth.
Tribalism is based on protecting the herd and wiping out anyone who is outside of that group.
We achieved greatness in Western civilization because we went beyond the herd.
In fact, we decided, we developed an idea intellectually that it doesn't matter what herd you belong to, it doesn't matter what you look like.
(22:58):
It doesn't matter what bare skin you're wearing.
It doesn't matter what side of the river you were born on.
What matters is the ideas that you share with others.
The United States is the unique example of that experience in world history, and that's in my view why the United States has prospered so much.
In addition to our concepts of freedom, obviously, and limited government, which is all going by the wayside today, just as in the world in the therapy room, truth is no longer exemplified or taught or searched for or.
(23:30):
Even desired by either the patient or by the therapist.
One of the reasons, one of the reasons I wanna say one more thing why we, I believe are magnetized by forensics is that that is the one area in psychological occupation or psychiatric occupation where truth is still valued.
(23:55):
Mm-hmm.
And still desired.
And that's what we're compensated for, right? That's what we are demanded to provide.
We are told it doesn't matter what the, I'm not gonna say patient, we call them applicants or claimants that we're evaluating for legal purposes are actually saying, and what they want, which is they want to be found very, very sick in most cases, so they can get money.
(24:18):
What matters and what only matters is what is the truth.
We are not there to treat them.
We are not there to affirm them.
We are not there to have any emotion relationship with them.
We are there to receive, compile information and data and provide a nuanced, thoughtful, clinically informed opinion, whether they like it or not.
That's what we are mandated to do, and to some degree, that's what we used to do as therapists.
(24:42):
That was our mandate, and that's what the patients wanted too.
But they don't want that anymore.
They don't want the truth, they can't handle the truth.
They want to feel good, and our job is to make them feel that way.
That's why things have changed.
It's so interesting that you say that, and I, I agree with what you've said.
Of course on ICPs website, it says, when you load up the homepage, this is a dynamic, progressive, diverse training program, which exists in order to treat emotional discomfort.
(25:20):
And is an avenue for self discovery.
That's what the breast was for.
That's why the nipple was discovered and the milk began flowing into the baby's mouth to you're actually, you, you're right.
Exploration.
You're right.
Not just linguistically and developmentally, but also in terms of declining and psychoanalysis.
(25:42):
No namesake of mine.
Um, absolutely correct.
And you know, um, I've been wondering what happened to the concept of normal in the field of psychotherapy, there's no normal anymore, and without normal there is no healthy.
And without healthy, there is no benchmark against which to help patients understand what needs to be improved so that their quality of life can be so improved.
(26:14):
Um, have you seen that as well? Normal is now considered a pejorative.
Yeah, it's like an oppression because it constrains you away from meandering and philandering and deviating into an unhealthy, perverse, and self-destructive and other destructive path of life and course of action.
(26:40):
Now, why would people, why, why would there be a growing contingent, uh, like this? Again, the vast majority of my patients, actually now 100%, because I screen very, very carefully now, uh, I'm like you, um, I have now started to screen very, very carefully so that the outcome and process can be mutually beneficial.
(27:02):
It can be, I can have a purposeful experience and the patient can have, um, a, a, a useful psychoanalytic process.
The, the screening, I, I believe, is an ethical mandate.
Um, on my part, uh, why, why would there be a growing contingent of people who prefer to, to have an, to not be treated effectively? Uh, I'm not sure if I'm saying that correctly.
(27:29):
Well, I have many sources of information from the local K through 12 educational system as well as universities on the ground, employees as well as students, GSIs, graduate student instructors, administrators who feed me information.
Mm-hmm.
Frequently.
And I can say without any doubt that all levels of our education, and that comes from preschool, K through 12 graduate, uh, postgraduate training without any exceptions.
(27:57):
Now, whether it's public, private, government, doesn't matter with some exceptions in, uh, Jewish, Orthodox and, uh, Catholic, uh, education.
And I say exceptions because even there, there's some issues.
Education today.
This is of course the people that are being fed into our practices as they graduate year after year.
All the way up to the postgraduate level is premised on keeping the students feeling good about themselves and bolstering their egos rather than challenging them to grow, challenging them to develop resilience and demanding of them.
(28:43):
The holding capacity that is required to assess information, especially first line information, primary source information, consider it, criticize it, challenge it, and then form one's opinion and response to it.
(29:03):
None of that is being asked of students today at all.
None of it, and so is we do not have the capacity for it.
What, what is being asked? What is there some sort of Montessori, uh, idea that's creeping through education self? It's even worse than that because Montessori at least encouraged exploration of the environment today.
(29:23):
The first thing that a child does when he walks into a classroom is he sits down and takes out his tablet and he begins looking at a screen and he looks at that screen while the teacher is instructing in the front of the classroom, utterly ignoring the instructor.
He is not given a book.
(29:44):
He does not have any tactile experience of touching actual books.
He also is not asked to write with his hands.
Wow.
He's asked to type, so he does not have any tactile experience of writing or taking notes.
What are, what is this generation growing up like this? What are they going to look like? What, what is their functional capacity when they come of age? They have none.
(30:10):
They use AI to produce work and they use Google to receive information.
They do not use their own brains.
They do not have a resource within their own brains of information, of maps, of capacities to calculate, of references to art, to history, to music.
(30:33):
They are essentially a blank slate and a robotic manipulator to take data in and then spit data back out.
They do not have a mind of their own.
That's so scary.
You know? It's horrific for the future, the future of of the world really.
But Western SIV in particular, and that's interesting because the data on IQ is that it was steadily increasing until around 2018 and then it started to dip.
(30:59):
And it may be that the, um, inception of the iPhone in 2013 is when it became really prominent.
Um, may have reached its five-year developmental crest.
Started to take hold in the reduction of the, of the cognitive processing of the younger generations.
Now we're seeing IQ dip, um, below.
(31:20):
Uh, gosh, this is really, um, well this is the answer to your question is where is it coming from? It's a feeder program.
This is where it's coming from and it's nearly universal.
And these are the patients that we're getting now because they're now one generation plus in, and they're starting to naturally develop the really, the, the fruit of this absolute failure of social and academic education.
(31:54):
And that manifests itself in severe personality and emotional disorders.
Hmm.
I wonder what the role of a psychotherapist will be in 10 years.
Will it, will it even be recognizable from say, a 1980s to 1990s, you know, heyday of psychoanalysis, analyst? Or will it, you know what it's gonna be? It's gonna be online, 20 minute coaching.
(32:23):
Mm-hmm.
That's an affirmation sessions.
That's what it's gonna be.
So in, in terms of, you know, I often get requests for a, of course free 15 minute, you know, or 10 minute consultation, and I don't do them anymore.
I did them very briefly, but of course, it's a silly idea.
(32:46):
You, you can't get to know anything about yourself no less the complex interaction between you and another human in 10 minutes.
Um, so we have this brevity culture that you're describing, and it, it, it's, it's based on a facile understanding of, of, of information processing and human life and.
When I did have those, when I did offer those, it, it was sort of like a, um, it was like I was asked to perform a dance for somebody, explain to me your way of working and how you would treat me, which is very, it's like, how in the hell could I possibly answer that? Um, it's like, you know, you go to a, to a, an oncologist and say, in 10 minutes, please describe to me the full extent of your training and delivery of services.
(33:41):
No one would think to do such a thing.
Um, I, I think the entire basis of understanding for what it is to engage in, in really any process of depth through interaction.
Forget psychotherapy for a moment, any depth process with another person, seems in peril what you're describing.
(34:05):
Is like the matrix.
Well, what, what a therapy requires, unlike surgery is the development of a relationship with another human being.
I don't need a relationship with my surgeon.
He could be the biggest asshole in the world.
I don't care.
I prefer if they are, frankly it, it means that they're probably so narcissistic and arrogant that any flaw, any error in their treatment would be so devastating that they're gonna do everything it takes, including divorcing their 17th wife in order to make sure that my surgery is perfect.
(34:36):
That's the guy I want.
I don't want a nice surgeon.
I want an asshole that gets the job done, like the guy that goes out into war.
I don't want a nice affirming transgender vegan with a skirt going out with an AR 15.
I want a guy that doesn't care and doesn't blink an eye when the head explodes like a watermelon at a miles distance with a sniper rifle, and he licks his lips and goes, got another one, and then notches his gun.
(35:01):
That's the guy I want in the war.
So these patients that are coming into us now, they don't even know how to engage in a relationship with us because they do not have the experience of having a relationship with themselves.
They are never alone.
They are, they are caring and AI pocket friend in their, in their, in their pants 24 7.
(35:27):
That's a's sad right there.
I mean that I, I feel a real sadness for that generation.
I really do.
And when I'm out, uh, uh, viewing the younger generation, say at a grocery store or, or something like that, I see such a, a, um, a confusion in them.
Such a, such a, a lackluster demeanor that it makes me, well, number one, grateful that I didn't grow up in, in such an imperial generation.
(35:54):
Oh God, can you imagine? I can't imagine that.
But also really sad for them.
I mean, you can see the kind of, um, flattening of their affect.
If they're not equipped to go into a, a, a proper well constructed psychotherapy for the purpose of, and I'm not even sure if such a thing is, is really designed to help these sorts of, these sorts of impediments.
(36:19):
Um, I mean we're, we're really forecasting a sort of doom, aren't we? And from here, click the link in the show notes below, or go to real clear podcast.com.
Become a member and listen to this and all full episodes.
Thanks very much.
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Ding dong! Join your culture consultants, Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang, on an unforgettable journey into the beating heart of CULTURE. Alongside sizzling special guests, they GET INTO the hottest pop-culture moments of the day and the formative cultural experiences that turned them into Culturistas. Produced by the Big Money Players Network and iHeartRadio.