July 20, 2023 • 55 mins
Opening your eyes to the intricate world of property appraisals and tax rates, we're thrilled to welcome a true authority on the subject, Mike Twitty, the Pinellas County Property Appraiser. With a wealth of experience and deep understanding of the field, Mike offers us a lens into the backstage processes, including decoding the values posted on their website and intricacies of trim notices. But that's not it, he also presents an illuminating post-COVID overview of the value increase for single-family homes over the past two years, something that's reshaping the real estate market in unprecedented ways.
Our conversation takes a turn towards understanding the role of technology in property appraisals. Mike recounts his firsthand experience with the recent website redesign and the unique challenges that accompany such system changes. We delve into the specifics of different mobile home parks and the elusive arena of PACE loans. Ever wondered why these loans are missing from their website or tax bills? Mike has the answers.
The discourse shifts gear as we explore the often-overlooked complexities of homestead exemptions and property taxes. With Mike at the helm, we walk through the process, discuss the consequences of removing homestead from a property before its sale, and the penalties for homestead fraud. Ever thought about establishing trusts to retain homestead benefits? This episode will guide you on the why and how. Mike also explains how to leverage the tax estimator website for a smoother transition into the upcoming tax year. So, tune in as we dissect the multifaceted world of property appraisal and taxes, promising a conversation full of insights and knowledge you can't afford to miss!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hello and welcome to the golf coast to space coast
podcast at Charles Ruttenbergreality program for you to find
out where the rubber meets theroad and give you the facts you
need to help you navigate thereal estate industry out there.
So today I am joined by a veryspecial guest.
(00:20):
First we have Byron in thebooth force over here, but today
we have a very special guest.
His name is Mike Twitty, thehonorable Mike Twitty, your
Pinellas County propertyappraiser.
Very humble guy, but I'm goingto tell you a little bit about
his pedigree.
Why, why, how he got to wherehe is.
He's a lifelong resident ofPinellas County.
(00:41):
All right, me too, love that.
I was born and raised here,graduated from Largo High, he
went to the best school in thestate.
He went to the University ofFlorida don't hate out there
with a degree in businessadministration and majored in
real estate and urban analysis.
He also, guys, has a Floridareal estate brokers license and
(01:03):
he also was a state certifiedgeneral appraiser.
That was the perfect segue intohis business to what he is
today.
So his job with the PinellasCounty property appraiser, his
duly elected official position,is a political job.
You got to run for that everyfour years, don't you?
Yes, you do.
This guy has the pedigree forthe job.
He not only knows what he'sdoing out there, he's done it,
(01:28):
and so when he assesses yourvalue on your house, you're
going to have a hard timearguing that, aren't you?
So with that, I want to turn itover.
Mike, thanks for coming back.
We appreciate having you here.
Thank you, mike.
Thanks for having me in.
Well, so what is going on?
I heard that you just got thevalues up and yes, yes, so you
know.
Speaker 2 (01:46):
It's really important for everybody to understand.
Whenever we post our valueseach year, it's as of a static
point in time, so it's alwaysthat January one effective date
of value.
So you know when people are outthere getting appraisals on
their homes, those are typically, you know an as is value as of
a current date in most cases.
So when you look at our ourwebsite, don't think it's you
(02:07):
know a current value as of thetime you're looking at it.
It's always as of typically themost recent January one.
However, we just posted oureffective January one 2023
values on the website this week.
So, because it takes the firsthalf of the year really to get
all that stuff together, we haveto let all the data come in
(02:28):
from the prior year and closethe year out, and a lot of that
doesn't record until in throughthe first quarter.
You know, to sort it all out,pick up new construction, do all
those types of things.
Speaker 1 (02:39):
A lot of parcels out there to get the information on.
So so you guys just got the,the trim notices.
I guess, right, we call it.
Well, no, so what do we callthat?
Speaker 2 (02:49):
Yeah, so the trim notices don't come out until the
third week of August, so that'swhen you get your official trim
notice.
We we just released what wecall the preliminary values.
So those are the July onevalues we certify and send up to
the Department of Revenue andwe also provided to all the
taxing authorities.
So they're using that to startdoing their budgeting process.
So they'll set their, theirtentative millage rates, which
(03:13):
are their tax rates, right, andthen you'll see those on the
trim notice by a taxingauthority in August.
But just so you all know, sothe values, you can go check
your value that is likely goingto be on your trim notice now.
So if you you go to the website, you look at your value, you
can check your exemptions and ifyou see something that looks
out of line, just call ouroffice because we'll explain
(03:36):
whatever we need to explain toyou and help walk you through it
.
Speaker 1 (03:39):
Perfect.
I appreciate that.
Now, when you say the differenttaxing authorities, could you
give guys, the listeners outthere, a quick idea on what
we're talking about when we talkto who's what and where they're
at?
Sure?
Speaker 2 (03:52):
sure?
So taxing authorities areessentially all your.
You know, first of all, your 24different cities and your
unincorporated county.
Those are all different taxingauthorities.
We have almost 60 differenttaxing authorities within
Pinellas County.
How do you keep all thisstraight?
yeah, so all different millagerates, I have a really good
staff, because we have to, youknow, keep track of all that
(04:14):
stuff as well.
So, but then you have thingslike the school board, psta,
juvenile welfare board, swift,mud.
You know, there's all theseother line items that show up on
your trim notice.
They're on your trim notice.
We show everything that's inyour tax district.
So wherever you live, you'regoing to have different taxing
(04:35):
authority lines and differenttax rates based on those
authorities.
So you know, to keep it simple,the, the equation for a tax
bill is basically taxable value,which we determine, times tax
rate, which the taxingauthorities determine equals tax
dollars.
Speaker 1 (04:53):
So just so we're clear, they shouldn't call you
when their millage goes up.
Speaker 2 (04:58):
We have nothing to do with millage right, you just
set the values.
Right, we're following themarket.
So the market goes up, marketgoes up.
If it goes down, it goes down,and then we administer all the
exemptions.
Speaker 1 (05:09):
So we have, wow, a lot of questions, a lot of
things going on.
So what's going on?
I mean we could go back for 20,obviously this year.
See where you're.
You're going backwards andlooking at a time.
So what would you say postCOVID?
We've seen here in 20, 21, 22,just a ballpark in it.
(05:29):
What kind of value increasehave we seen in those three
years?
Speaker 2 (05:35):
Yeah, so post COVID, we basically the last two years
just value jumped for a singlefamily, the.
If you took the median priceper square foot of a single
family home, it jumped 21% thelast two years in a row, which
is the two highest on record 21%a piece.
Speaker 1 (05:56):
Yes, yes, oh wow.
Speaker 2 (05:59):
Yes, now it.
That's.
That's the year as a whole.
Now obviously we we trendedbackwards, some in the back half
of last year, right, you knowsome of it.
Some neighborhoods flattenedout, some slipped back a little
bit, but overall the number wasstill up.
So our taxable value increased11.7% countywide on average.
(06:23):
So some tax taxingjurisdictions were less than
that and some were a little bitmore.
Speaker 1 (06:30):
So that's 11% for this year, correct?
Speaker 2 (06:33):
So we had 21 and 11.
Speaker 1 (06:35):
I can do some quick math that's like 50%.
Speaker 2 (06:38):
Well, well, well you got to think those are different
things.
So so one is overall movementof market value and the other
one is taxable value.
So taxable value already takesaway that's got save our homes
caps factored in, it's gotexemptions factored in, so it's
it's not apples and apples.
Speaker 1 (06:54):
That's not.
I got it, that's so.
I would imagine these taxingauthorities and the board of
county commissioners and allthese people that get to spend
that revenue that you increasedare really happy with you,
aren't?
Speaker 2 (07:06):
they, yes, they are, I try to encourage them to.
Hey, you know, we've had 11years of positive taxable value
growth, you know, and it'sprobably averaged in the seven
to eight percent a year rangeover that 11 year span and it's
been pushing 12% the last twoyears and in some jurisdictions
it's been as high as 15%.
You know it wouldn't be such abad thing to roll some milled
(07:30):
rates.
But however, you know, obviouslythey've got their own
priorities they have to dealwith and you know, I don't know
all the inner workings of allthose budgetary needs and
obviously we've had inflationthat's been record, record
levels here in the last coupleyears, so that's been
problematic.
So there's.
(07:51):
They have a lot on their plateto to ferret out and you know
the cost of all the servicesthey provide, whether it's the
labor piece keeping their, their, their labor force happy, and
then just all the cost ofmaterials and construction.
You know building roads andbuilding new buildings all those
things have not gotten anycheaper at all, not one bit.
Speaker 1 (08:15):
Would your office have any data on the influx of
people?
I understand you guys, that'snot what you do, but do you have
any idea of if there's beenmore people come into Pinellas
County in the last three years,just versus?
Speaker 2 (08:28):
oh yes, they're half, and I usually, once a year,
I'll kind of dig into thosenumbers a little bit.
It's a little, it's kind of ahard thing to bear it out.
I usually will get some, somedriver's license information
from the, from our tax collector.
I'll look at, you know, normalpopulation trend information
(08:49):
that I can get a look at touristdata and, you know, look
through that stuff to see if,you know, is Penelope's getting
greater than their, their prorat, a share of the, you know,
roughly 1200 people a day.
Speaker 1 (09:02):
I would think so, with all of our beaches here to.
Speaker 2 (09:05):
Florida and the data I've looked at.
It says yes, okay, you knowthat that are the Tampa Bay
market is a very strong draw.
Obviously there's morerestrictions on affordable
housing within Penelope'sbecause we're effectively you
know, us and Monroe County,which is the keys, were really
the first two built out countiesIn the state of Florida, so
(09:27):
everybody else has some sort ofdevelopable land.
Ours is all redeveloped, youknow so right, well, fantastic
news.
Speaker 1 (09:36):
Do you have anything you want?
Else, you want to update us onthe market update of the report,
for we move on to other topics.
Speaker 2 (09:42):
Yeah, let's, let's talk a little bit about you know
, obviously supply has remainedtight, particularly in
Penelope's.
We see it.
Yeah, I mean it's not as tightin Statewide.
You know it's slipping a littlebit there, but you know
Penelope still remains on singlefamily under two months of
supply.
We know that roughly six monthsis a, you know, balance market.
So still still definitely aseller's market at this point.
(10:06):
But there are there is a lotmore negotiation going on.
You would know that better thanme, but that's what I'm seeing
and hearing.
Speaker 1 (10:13):
Finally leveling out the playing field a little bit.
The poor buyers were reallybehind the eight ball here the
last three years.
It was a really frustratingsituation for most buyers and
they were trying in earnest toTo make a good offer on a fair
property and, just you know,there was 45 other other bidders
on that same property.
Speaker 2 (10:31):
Yeah, that makes it challenging.
But we have seen condos go up,they have crept up and it's over
three months supply.
It was down as low as thesingle family at one point
because it was a more affordableprice point, you know.
So it actually at one point Ithink he this will apply even
got under single family for avery short period.
Wow, I mean it was.
They were really close but itmight have been just for a month
(10:52):
.
But now we're starting to see aclimb and obviously we've got
that new condominium legislationthat passed last year that I
think is starting to rear itshead and have some impact there.
Speaker 1 (11:04):
Are you seeing that that might be bringing the
values down a little bit?
I understand that you knowinventories up, but certainly
not at a equilibrium point yet.
Are you seeing, is it yourfeeling, that the condo laws,
the new condo, the uncertaintyof it all is, is bringing the
values down a little bit?
Speaker 2 (11:20):
Yes.
Well, what we're seeing is somepeople are because of the
uncertainty.
They don't know what they're,they haven't had their report
done yet, they're, they're phaseone, right call it.
They haven't had that done yet,but they might know they're
building pretty well and theymight be skeptical, so they're
going ahead and putting theirunits up for sale now before
it's done.
(11:40):
But what we think is going tohappen is you're going to see a
recalibration of values as wemove through the next two years,
because they've got a deadlineof the end of twenty twenty four
.
They're supposed to have thesedone and at that point you
should know what the cost isgoing to be to cure if you've
had to go to a phase twosituation to actually cure a
(12:02):
structural defect, and that atthat point you know those
associations and those ownersare going to have to pony up and
fill that gap.
Speaker 1 (12:10):
To make a special assessment.
Speaker 2 (12:12):
Right and we're starting to see some of those
have kicked in on certainproperties and where those have
kicked in, there is starting tobe a recalibration of pricing,
as you would expect, because now, all of a sudden, if you get
hit with a hundred thousanddollar special assessment, it's
going to affect the value of theproperty?
Speaker 1 (12:29):
Right, and you know the people.
You know sad fact is, peoplemight have come here twenty,
fifteen, thirty years ago andthey could afford it then.
And things are going to bechanging and it's going to come
on the market and come online.
Unfortunately, that's just thecycle of the business, nothing
we can do about that, right?
Well, fantastic news.
So, listen, we've got somequestions for you that have come
(12:54):
in.
We're going to talk about OK,you got a new site.
Yes, we'll talk about at theend of the, the podcast here.
We want to know all about it.
I know you guys have beenworking on it.
I think, on top of your wholepedigree, I think that you also
know a little bit abouttechnology.
I have found out you're pretty.
I don't want to call tech nerd,but you are, you kind of a tech
(13:14):
nerd.
Speaker 2 (13:15):
I probably used to be more.
Now I don't have as much timefor it.
Speaker 1 (13:20):
You are out there quite a bit, by the way, when
you say you don't have much time.
Speaker 2 (13:23):
Yes, I don't know but .
But I was heavily involved inthe in the website redesign.
I mean literally it's we'veI've been participated in a
daily for three years, so so alot of the, the vision, the.
You know I was steering thatalong with some of my staff, and
we worked with an outsidevendor that had never built a
(13:44):
property appraisers website andwe had a design because I wanted
.
I wanted somebody that couldgive us the good user interface
tools and functionality, but wewanted to control the back end
and we wanted to give them theguidance on how we wanted the
flow to be, the tools that we'regoing to, that we are going to
develop and put on the site.
Speaker 1 (14:05):
The developer come, give it the warm, fuzzy, user
friendly feel and you guys takecare of all the data and
technology on the backside andinformation that's coming out
and it makes a lot of sense.
Those are.
Those are always challenges forcompanies, anytime going
through an update or a changeover in system, and I can
imagine that you guys have beenworking really hard on this.
Speaker 2 (14:26):
Oh yeah.
Speaker 1 (14:27):
And how many parcels again in?
In Fidelis County about 450,000.
So you got to have this thingright for half a million parcels
out there.
Yes, yes.
Speaker 2 (14:36):
And that's something we actually introduced to.
So, of that, that parcelbreakdown, it's basically
435,000 of real real estateparcels and then about another
15.
Thousand of your businesstangible personal property
accounts.
So those are now on the site towhich have never been out there
before.
So businesses can go on andsearch the tangible and get
their information.
(14:56):
For the last two years.
Speaker 1 (14:57):
That's really neat.
So that'll lead me to one ofour rapid fire questions real
quick.
We get calls here all the timefrom agencies.
You can imagine hey, I want tosell a mobile home.
Okay, quick question down theland and the mobile, then you
can handle it as a realtor.
If not, I always tell them lookfor that TPP sticker on the on
the mobile.
Is that still what you guys dowhen you go out there to these
(15:21):
mobile home parks that are parkowned lots, and do you have to
send crews out every so often toinspect those?
How does that work?
Speaker 2 (15:28):
Yes, yeah, we have a manufactured home team that that
goes out and looks at those,because, yeah, you've got your
lot rental parks, you've gotyour co-op parks, you've got,
you know, straight residentowned, you've got people on fee
simple land.
There's a lot of differentmanufactured home park scenarios
that make those challenging,because some just have a DMV
(15:52):
license on the on the unit andthen others have a TPP sticker
and then others have a real realestate.
Speaker 1 (15:59):
They could just have a license plate on there.
Basically, yes, with the newsite or the old site that I know
you're going to be phasing outsoon, I understand, or hope.
Is there any way to go on thesite and tell whether it's this
these particular parks, are realproperty or tangible property,
or is it something they justhave to physically go out and
(16:20):
find out themselves.
Speaker 2 (16:21):
You can kind of read the tea leaves by looking at the
parcel information, but itdoesn't specifically tell you
that.
Speaker 1 (16:29):
Okay, you know what you're looking for.
You go to the specific parceland you see it's owned by some
big management company or thename of the park or what not.
Obviously it's part, right.
Speaker 2 (16:39):
Okay, right, exactly, it's under one ownership.
It lights up as one big parcelon our map and you see only one
owner for the whole thing.
Well, that's a lot rental park.
Speaker 1 (16:50):
So now your units are likely licensed, got it, and
that's a probably one of themost calls we get around.
Okay, so my buddy or my friendis selling their mobile and you
know, can I handle thistransaction?
Well, they own the real estate,right, and they own the mobile.
You can certainly handle it.
So let's let me ask you, man,we're just going to bounce
(17:12):
around here a little bit.
If that's okay with everybody,I'm going to ask you a hot
button.
What do you?
What's going on with?
How does it reflect on on onthe site and on the parcel
information with a paste loan.
Speaker 2 (17:26):
I knew I was going to get aggravated on this one,
guys.
Speaker 1 (17:28):
Oh yeah.
Speaker 2 (17:30):
Pinellas just won a suit with PACE and Pinellas.
Pace was only authorized forcommercial in Pinellas County.
The county commission had toapprove residential and they
never have.
However, there was a bondvalidation hearing a year ago in
(17:56):
Leon County, which isTallahassee area, and in that
bond validation the judge made aruling and basically had a
ruling that gave PACE a comfortlevel to think, oh, based on
that ruling, we can operatewithout any agreements or
ordinances passed by localgovernment in any county within
(18:18):
the state.
And they literally sent everycounty letter saying, oh, we're
not abiding by any agreements wehad in the past, we don't need
them anymore.
So all those agreements went bythe wayside and they just
started making PACE loans.
So we have over 60 of them inPinellas since the beginning of
the year and they are notauthorized to occur.
(18:38):
They will not be reflected onour site or on trim notices
because we literally have noconnection or relationship with
those vendors.
Speaker 1 (18:51):
So you I guess there's a relationship Obviously
, you basically bill for the taxcollector and the tax collector
now won't, is not going to becollecting or not going to be
enforced, and putting these onthere.
Speaker 2 (19:05):
Right.
The collector will not bebilling those either, so those
will not be on the tax bill, soas it stands right now.
So Pinellas had requested anemergency hearing.
That hearing went, it fell inPinellas' favor and I believe
now PACE is appealing so it'sall hanging out there right now.
(19:28):
So our status right now is weare not putting those on the
trim notices and the taxcollectors not putting them on
the bills, so anything itdoesn't mean that those people
are off the hook on thatobligation of that debt.
However, those PACE is going tohave to find a way to collect
that money themselves and rightnow we don't look at them as
(19:48):
being in first position becausethat if they're on the trim
notice, that is a non-advalorumspecial assessment and puts them
in first super priorityposition above any first or
second mortgages and that in mymind it takes that away.
Speaker 1 (20:04):
So they had a sales program out there to go sell,
get you and literally bump itwas same as your property taxes,
it was a property tax at thatpoint.
Speaker 2 (20:15):
It was, and I never felt like the PACE program
should have been able to tap theuse of non-advalorum
assessments, because it's really.
It's set up to be a uniformspecial assessment.
It's supposed to be uniformity.
So they come in and you'reundergrounding utilities in a
neighborhood.
(20:35):
That's a uniform assessment.
All the people in theneighborhood are getting that
assessment.
When you come in and make asingle PACE loan on one property
that there's nothing uniformabout that, no, no, all you're
doing is jumping ahead.
You're not having to meet fairlending rules and all that and
you're jumping ahead of anyexisting debt that's already on
that property.
Speaker 1 (20:56):
We have seen.
You can imagine, in our worldwe see a lot of issues.
Some of the residents orsellers didn't even know that
this was on there and I'm sureyou see it as well.
Like, hey, how this could on mybill?
Well, you signed the paperworkfor it and it got recorded and
it's on.
So this is, if you wereprognasticating, where do you
(21:18):
see this going with the PACEloans?
It's a sticky button.
I know there's I don't know alot of people for it.
I know now there's a lot ofpeople that aren't in favor of
it.
I don't really hear theproponents, other than the
people with the PACE loans oh,of course that are championing
this cause.
Where do you see this going inthe next five, 10 years?
Speaker 2 (21:35):
Yeah, it's gonna be interesting.
I don't know if some of theoutreach is gonna get big enough
for the legislature to actuallystep reverse course on some of
this, because obviously theyallowed this to go through to
begin with and I never felt italways felt a little unsavory to
me because the PACE vendorswould always act like they were
(21:55):
partnered with governmentCorrect and like it was part of
a government program and itreally isn't, you know, and I
just don't think they shouldhave been allowed to use the
uniform method of assessment inhow they do it Now in Pinellas
we haven't really had to dealwith the issues to this point
because they weren't allowed, sowe didn't have any.
But I've got horror stories frommy fellow property appraisers
(22:20):
in other counties where it hasbeen allowed and some of those
counties it's been repealed.
The commission went back andrepealed it because it got so
bad.
And then others still have itbut they say it's a big problem
and they would really like toget rid of it.
And many times the rates are ata user's interest rate if
(22:43):
people are getting overchargedfor the product itself.
Speaker 1 (22:46):
And if you run it out and see what they'd pay for a
new air conditioner over thelife of that loan, it'll shock
you.
Yes, I've seen $40,000 aircondition in your units before.
Speaker 2 (22:56):
It's just insane.
Yes, exactly and it certainlyisn't in the best interest of
the public and I would encourageanybody that is in that
position that if you can do ahome equity line, definitely go
that route.
Speaker 1 (23:09):
A credit card would be better.
Speaker 2 (23:10):
Right, our credit card is better.
Yes, because you have theability to pay it off a lot
quicker.
And I think some of thesepastelones, have prepayment
penalties and different thingsin there too, depending on how
they're Steep.
Speaker 1 (23:22):
yes, Steep, really.
Yeah, it's difficult totransfer it over, even if the
new owner's willing to accept it, and just a big issue that I
hope we see some resolve withhere coming soon.
All right?
So I'm gonna bounce over againand ask you another question.
Tell us what is the importantof All right?
(23:43):
So let me back up one second.
I know that and I happen to knowthis and just by accident, that
a while back you might havetaken some heat from your fellow
property appraisers aboutsomething I think that you did
that was protecting the public,and that's when I sell my house
(24:07):
in March or April and, forwhatever reason, I call the
property appraisers office and Istrip my homestead off of that,
I think.
Tell me what you did.
I think you stepped out on alimb and did something a little
different and allowed that newowner am I correct here?
To carry out the rest of thatyear what the tax bill was when
they purchased that property.
(24:27):
And then, of course, they talkabout their set, their tax bill
with the cap being reset and allthat.
Well.
Speaker 2 (24:34):
I mean it, it's always been in place, it's in
statute that you know you.
Basically, if you buy aproperty, if you brought a
property on July one from ahomesteader, you get the benefit
of that homestead and theirexemptions through the rest of
that tax year, unless thatselling homesteader strips that
(24:55):
homestead before the sale.
So if they contact a propertyappraiser's office and say, hey,
I'm out of here, remove myhomestead for this tax year,
then yes, it can get removed.
I think what you're thinkingabout is.
So if somebody does that beforethe normal March one filing
deadline, they're totally intheir right to do that.
(25:18):
What we did is we stepped up andsaid, hey, if they pull it off
after March one, we know thatthe seller has an ulterior
motive and a lot of times whatit was was they had already
bought another home, maybe evenin another county say, they
bought it in 22.
Okay, so they bought it in 2022.
The new buyer had no idea thatthe homesteader on the property
(25:42):
they were buying is gonna getstripped, but they strip it
before March one and they filefor the other house because they
already owned it in 22.
So they would qualify basicallyfor January one of 2023, the
property appraiser wouldn'tnecessarily Okay, and you're
right, that is what I wasthinking.
Yes.
So what we did is we said okay,if we run across those after
(26:05):
March one, we're gonna deny themfrom pulling that away, because
they marketed it as a homesteadproperty in most cases.
We've talked about putting some.
We've actually talked with theboard of realtors about maybe
including that in disclosures.
Even there is that homestead.
(26:26):
Yes, no kind of thing.
But maybe take that a little bitfurther and say does the seller
intend to leave homestead inplace for the tax year of sale,
or something like this, just toput a little more teeth into it,
because the yes, no, it'sreally not enough.
Speaker 1 (26:47):
Yeah, I would imagine those are the calls that come
to your the lender who's loaningthe money, and they wouldn't
even know that when it gotstripped prior.
They look at it.
Here's the tax bill we can baseon this year, so I could see
where even title companieswouldn't even know how to do the
pro-rations properly on aclosing a lot of things
triggered there.
Speaker 2 (27:06):
Yeah, so they pull that off.
So then you get messed up inthe pro-ration.
All of a sudden, the cap resetsin the year that you bought
instead of in the next year, soeverything comes to you in a lot
faster fashion.
Speaker 1 (27:20):
Yeah, you just get hit quicker with the reality of
home ownership at that point andpaying your taxes.
So this will lead us right intoif you know you with your real
estate background, your privateappraisal companies.
You've been out there in thereal world very much as well as
(27:41):
the political office world.
What would you tell an agent?
To try and best simplify in asentence or two or three they
seem to want to talk so too muchsometimes To explain to their
new buyer about here's what youshould know about Homestead in
Pinellas County, the datesimportant and all these things.
(28:03):
What would you tell an agentlike hey, this is your client,
here's your standard go-to.
Speaker 2 (28:07):
Yeah, and a lot of times they're dealing with it
could be an out-of-state buyeror a first-time buyer or even a
long-time homesteader.
That just doesn't understand.
Now they've built up a largeamount of port for portability
and they don't understand howthat works.
So the big thing is for them,first of all, to tell their
client do not look at theseller's taxes, because that
means nothing other than for theyear of pro-ration.
(28:30):
So beyond that it is a wholefresh new ball game.
You're gonna go to market, thecap's gonna reset.
Their best bet is to go to ourtax estimator and on the website
run.
That takes about five seconds,yeah, enter a couple of quick
(28:51):
pieces of information and itruns a legitimate estimate of
what you're likely gonna face inthe next tax year.
So it's after you cross yourfirst January, one of ownership.
Speaker 1 (29:03):
And that January one date is very important for your
homestead because that's thesnapshot you take of value.
And I think the other thing isyou gotta own it January one and
you've gotta reside in it,correct?
What is your criteria litmustest, if you will, for people
actually living in the home?
What are you guys gonna do?
Speaker 2 (29:23):
Yeah, I mean we're looking.
Hopefully they have a driver'slicense at that point, but a lot
of times they don't if they'renew to the state.
But we're looking for if it'stouchy, it might be a utility
bill, something to place inDisha that they owned and
occupied as of that point intime.
And then, as far as forms of IDwe're looking for is obviously
(29:48):
your DL, your car registrationin the state here locally,
voter's ID, those kind of things, and it's not any one of those
that you necessarily have tohave.
Ultimately you do have to havea DL, but we know that sometimes
that gets delayed.
You won't necessarily have thatright on January one.
Speaker 1 (30:07):
So you guys kind of take a preponderance of the
evidence and say, okay, it lookslike you're living here, so
let's talk the negative side ofthat.
What would happen if somebodywas found to be fudging on their
homestead and not reallyresiding there?
What kind of actions do youguys take to prevent that from
happening?
Speaker 2 (30:23):
Yes.
So we've got queries that werun different things.
We've got internal checks.
We've got investigators thatare looking out there and
following up on claims ofhomestead fraud.
A lot of it comes fromneighbors the nosy neighbor
that's how you find outeverything.
They often have more intel thananybody else out there or at
(30:45):
least they think they do.
They're not always right, theyhave their own intel anyways.
Sometimes it'll be, somebodywill turn in their neighbor and
really the owner was out of townfor two months but they had
other family members come in andstay at their house for a
couple months and they thinkthey're Airbnb'ing it and all
that kind of thing.
So we get a lot of those too.
So we have to ferret throughall of that.
Speaker 1 (31:07):
So what would happen if somebody was committing
homestead fraud?
What is the penalties to that?
Speaker 2 (31:11):
Yeah, so it's not a penalty that you want to have to
endure, so I do not recommendanybody trying to falsify
homestead.
Obviously it was put in placefor a reason to just apply to
people that is their primaryresidence, so the penalty is
quite stiff.
So it's a 50% penalty plus 15%interest per year and we can go
(31:35):
back 10 years on homestead fraud.
Speaker 1 (31:38):
So the 50% comes on the tax bill.
It's 50% of what the tax bill.
What's the 50%?
Speaker 2 (31:44):
penalty 50% of the Whatever the bill would have
been the bill would have beenthe outstanding amount.
Speaker 1 (31:50):
Oh no, you don't want to.
Yeah, that could be multiple.
Speaker 2 (31:51):
You don't want to fudge that it could potentially
be multiple years.
Yeah, I think people don't takethat as serious as they should
sometimes.
Speaker 1 (31:58):
That's a serious offense, so don't be messing
around with your homestead, andthink you know little tips too.
Speaker 2 (32:04):
If so, you have two homesteaders, they get married.
Make sure you pull one of thoseoff and you take which one.
Speaker 1 (32:12):
Well, it depends Well , it depends on which one they
want to live in.
Speaker 2 (32:15):
Oh no, I was talking about the cap, yeah yeah, if
you're reporting from one to theother, then yeah, take the
biggest cap.
Speaker 1 (32:21):
I gotcha.
And in a situation where twopeople are, can they let's say a
couple does divorce?
Unfortunately that does happenand they've lived in the same
home for a long time and theyhave a big cap.
How could one get some of it?
What do they do with that?
Speaker 2 (32:39):
Yeah, typically it's a 50-50 split is the way that
statutorily it's designed towork.
However, there is a form thatyou can fill out and submit to a
property appraiser's officethat you can specify the
percentage that each would get,so it could be 100% and zero or
anything in between, so thatmight even be part of at this
(33:03):
point.
As large as ports are, itreally should be part of the
negotiation of a divorce, of adivorce.
Speaker 1 (33:09):
Yeah, those attorneys need some money to settle some
things too.
Speaker 2 (33:12):
So to argue back and forth, but a lot of times you
get a situation where one spouseremains in the marital home,
the other leaves.
It, may not, might even leavethe state or doesn't have the
intent, doesn't think they'regonna buy within the portability
window something like that, andthey may still be on the
mortgage on the other house andthey're still literally paying
(33:35):
that mortgage.
So they really don't wanna losethat cap.
So they might say, just leave100% over there on the homestead
.
Speaker 1 (33:42):
Okay, yeah, that makes sense.
And, like you say, and what isthe caps now?
What is the maximum cap for amarried person or a single
person?
Speaker 2 (33:51):
Well it's not yeah, it's not based on that like it
is for federal, for IRSguidelines, the 250 and the 500
based on the gain.
This is different.
So this is up to 500,000 iswhat your port is, from one
property to the next.
That's a nice-.
Speaker 1 (34:07):
That you can carry with you, if it's over if you
have more.
Speaker 2 (34:09):
We have homes with million dollar caps on them, or
port amounts, I should say, orhomestead benefits.
So those would get pared down.
The 500 would be the maximum.
Speaker 1 (34:21):
Right right, all right, let's bounce around to
another topic.
Well, real quick.
How long?
Explain to them?
They sell their house.
They had another house undercontract maybe it was new
construction and they thought itwas gonna be done in December,
but it didn't get done untilFebruary.
(34:41):
How long would they have to notlose that port after they sold
their home?
Speaker 2 (34:47):
Right, so-.
Speaker 1 (34:48):
They're capping that port, so Correct.
Speaker 2 (34:50):
So that was a piece of legislation that I carried
forward and championed.
Speaker 1 (34:54):
We appreciate that Well, you're welcome.
Speaker 2 (34:57):
So and that's been a big help to a lot of people a
lot of people were missing outwith the former law stated two
tax years.
However, two tax years could beas short as basically a year
and a day.
So because again we're back tothat January one, that's that
magic date.
So if you only got to two years, if you sold at the beginning
of the year, if you sell at theend of the year, you've already
(35:19):
burned your first tax year.
So we had lots of people goinginto new construction that were
totally losing their ability toport.
Then we had this thing calledthe pandemic that actually in
supply got so tight peoplecouldn't even buy something if
they wanted to, so it ended upreally helping a lot of people
giving that.
So what we did is we added anextra tax year.
(35:39):
So now law reads three taxyears, which worst case scenario
is always gonna give you atleast two.
But so usually you're gonna besomewhere in that two to three
window, depending on what timeof year you sell.
Speaker 1 (35:53):
So if you've had built up a big home.
Say of our homestead cap.
You can port it, transfer itover up to three years Is the
new one.
Yeah, that is a maximum.
Yeah, but it could technicallybe two years in a day.
You close on January 2nd, youdon't qualify for homestead for
that year.
So thankfully you've gone toback.
And that's the point I wasmaking with our earlier comment
(36:15):
about how you didn't allow thesepeople to strip homesteads.
I know some property appraiserswere back in the day.
I don't know what's been goingon in the last couple of years
since portability and that was.
We really appreciate that youwere looking out for the
consumer and the taxpayers atthat point and they shouldn't
have been blindsided by that.
So we appreciate that.
So I wanna ask you one morething.
(36:36):
A popular thing out there toown properties in now is a trust
because of the protections youcan get in the estate planning.
That's done with that.
But I know if people aren'tcareful they don't put a trust
together properly and they couldactually lose their homestead.
Correct, that's correct.
(36:57):
Tell us a little bit about howyou should suggest they work
around that yes.
Speaker 2 (37:02):
So we have in house counsel in our office.
He's actually was recently justpromoted to the director of our
exemptions department.
He worked so close with themanyway on approvals of different
larger exemptions, and so he isthe perfect contact for this
stuff.
So if you ever have a questionyou wanna vet some trust
(37:22):
language ahead of time, beforeyou finalize it, just push it
over to our office or call ouroffice and ask for a gentleman
named Alex Luca.
He is our in house counsel andhe's the only attorney in our
office.
So even if they call in andjust say, hey, can I talk to
your?
in house counsel about sometrust language.
Speaker 1 (37:43):
You'll say sure and they'll get you connected and
then you can share that languageand he can vet it and make sure
that it's appropriate, so thatBecause if you were to do this,
even by accident, and Alexcaught it and you lost your
homestead, if you've done thatand filed that, there's no going
back and getting that homesteadand that cap back correct.
Or is there some do over hereyou?
Speaker 2 (38:02):
have, we would have to pick up on it within the same
tax year to again we're back tothat magic January one.
So those are kind of lines inthe sand that once you cross
those it's hard to unwind things.
So one thing that we wereproactive about is because we
had a lot of people starting toget advice to put their
homesteads in LLCs, which is ano-no because it is a legal
(38:28):
change of ownership and it resetyour cap.
So you really don't wanna dothat.
Well, we run a query onanything that has any
significant taxable value changeeach month.
As those documents come through, specifically looking at LLC
properties and things like thatto see, and if it's over a
(38:48):
certain dollar threshold ofchange, we'll send them a letter
and say, hey, did you reallymean to do this Cause it's gonna
reset your cap.
I had a constituent call meyesterday about one where he
said hey, I got this letter.
I added myself to my mom's deedand in it I got this letter.
Or she got this letter thatsaid are you sure you wanna do
(39:10):
this this tax year?
Because it's going to resethalf of your cap.
And the reason it was half isbecause it was tenants in common
.
And I told him.
I said you should have made ajoint tenants with rights of
survivorship.
It wouldn't have reset her capas long as you didn't file for
homestead.
So he said thank you.
I put him in touch with Alex,our in-house counsel, and I said
(39:33):
let him look at it closer.
But that's what it looks liketo me on the surface, just when
you told me it's gonna resethalf.
That tells me tenants in common, and that language is in our
letter as well to him.
So he's gonna go back andthey're gonna redraft and get
the deed right.
Speaker 1 (39:47):
Get the deed right.
So that brings up another goodpoint how many LLCs?
Definitely you cannot havehomestead in an LLC owned
property, correct, correct?
Okay, so what forms or methodswould be joint tenants with
right of survivorship, a trustworded correctly?
What other deeds or transfer ofownership would be qualified,
(40:07):
still for your homestead?
Speaker 2 (40:10):
I mean life estates.
Ladybird deeds that type ofstuff.
Speaker 1 (40:14):
Okay, so really just ladybird.
Joint tenants with right ofsurvivorship and trust are the
only way you're gonna own aproperty that is eligible for
homestead in state of Florida.
Speaker 2 (40:23):
I mean, you can be homesteaded as tenants in common
, but you would wanna do that atthe front end generally.
So two people buy it, they'retenants in common, they wanna
leave it to other interests, toother people.
Then yes, you could bothhomestead simultaneous at the
front end and set a cap.
But you just gotta rememberthat if one of those interest
(40:45):
trades, then it could reset.
And what if?
Speaker 1 (40:48):
one of those interests.
Let's just say me and my buddybuy a house and we live there
and then my buddy went off andgot married and his life changed
.
How would it pick up that the50% of that homestead might be
gone?
So the other owner that isstill living there could be on
the hook for some potentialfraud by accident here they
(41:10):
moved out.
They didn't even know.
I still have it homesteaded,with both of us in here.
I've got his 50, my 50, he'sbeen gone for five years.
Your department picks it up andI'm oh my gosh, I'm on the hook
now for this 50% penalty on the50% of the homestead cap I lost
.
Speaker 2 (41:25):
Yeah, potentially.
Speaker 1 (41:26):
Yeah, so be careful is what.
That is the other thing I would.
So let's talk about whensomebody does have a joint
tenant with right ofsurvivorship or a lady bird deed
, enhanced life of statewhatever, and there's a death,
they don't, whatever the deed,it's in mine and my wife's name,
I pass.
And what would she do?
(41:47):
Could she just come out to youroffice and bring a death
certificate and you guys?
How would that work?
Speaker 2 (41:53):
Yes, yeah, that's typically what we would do.
We'd look at the deathcertificate and if you're both,
and even if the spouse wasn't ondeed for some reason we have a
lot of those where you'll have amarriage.
However, it was a single man orwoman that owned the house that
became the marital home andthey never they never updated
the deed to reflect the spouse.
(42:13):
That is the one case where wewill add the spouse.
You know that hasn't.
We'll just we call it spousenot on deed, essentially, and
that preserves the cap if theycan prove that they were
actually there and married.
Speaker 1 (42:29):
Okay, so I own the house.
I pass.
My wife never got added to thehouse.
She could actually come out,show that, not lose the home.
So she's lived there too for 20years.
That's a really good to know.
I hope you guys are listeningto that, because I think that
scenario could play out quite abit.
Speaker 2 (42:45):
Absolutely.
Now unfortunately that doesn'twork for other family members.
You know if you're not a spouse, you know if you're a child,
you're on the deed.
You're not homesteaded, say youknow son is living with mom.
Mom passes, she was thehomesteader.
Unfortunately, that cap isgoing to reset.
Speaker 1 (43:04):
Yeah, yeah, I get it, but it does certainly a spousal
protection.
I like the guys you call itthere.
So that's really good stuff toknow, and it sounds like to me
like if you're in confused aboutanything, just call Mike's
office.
Absolutely you'll get theanswers.
Speaker 2 (43:18):
Our average on hold time is nine seconds, so you
know no excuse not to call usreally, and we'll get you to a
warm body really fast that thatcan answer your questions.
You've got the tax estimatorout there 24 seven that you can
run To get information, and thenobviously the new website has
loads of information that willanswer.
You know, the majority ofpeople's questions if they, if
(43:41):
they comb through it enough,just go there and click around,
right, you'd be surprised theinformation you got.
Speaker 1 (43:46):
So another hot.
When we get in here all thetime Square footage discrepancy.
I think you and I we're talkingabout this a little bit before
the show started.
I get agents call here and go.
You know, hey, I'm app.
Or I always tell them go theirproperty appraisers office.
I've been doing this so long Iremember when you guys weren't
online.
I have to go to your office andget information.
Speaker 2 (44:06):
I was like I am dating myself.
I know I used to have to climbaround in courthouses and
property appraisers office tooaround the state.
Speaker 1 (44:13):
micro fish, yeah look some stuff up on.
The most of our listeners don'teven know what that is, I'm
sure.
But so your office, which isthe official holder of public
records for name address, legal,correct and yes, yeah, and any
address changes flow through usand go to the tax collector.
Speaker 2 (44:30):
So we're we're kind of in bed together there as far
as the way our address flowworks so the agent shows up and
you know, says you know, mrMissseller, I've.
Speaker 1 (44:43):
You know, mike's office has you at 1800 square
feet.
My broker has said I have tolist this property in the MLS at
1800 square feet and they'readamant that they have 2200
square feet or 2300 square feetand they want the agent to
override that manually in theMLS, which I will tell you as a
Litigious nightmare for me to dothat.
(45:03):
Don't do that, agents.
What would be the remedy there?
Here's what I usually tell themif you're confused, have your
seller, your property owner,call Mike's office and they'll
send somebody out to eitherstraighten it up They'll figure
it out and either come back,give you the bad news or go.
Oh, we had it wrong.
What?
What is the right way to gothere?
Speaker 2 (45:22):
Yes, that that is the right way to go.
Um, well, we'll send anappraiser out and they'll come
out, they'll remeasure, they'llinspect.
You know things like that, soyou know, oftentimes you know
it's something that was enclosed, might not have been permitted,
or or that permit fell throughthe cracks somewhere.
Speaker 1 (45:38):
Magically just disappeared.
Speaker 2 (45:40):
Yes, you know somebody enclosed a garage.
We don't know about, you knowthings like that.
But on the new website toanother quick little tip and
tool that is available, so ifyou're on the parcel detail, so
if you research a property andyou're on that that parcel
detail page, the little toolboxthat comes out on the right side
, one of the buttons there, willsay request property review.
Speaker 1 (46:02):
Oh, really, so you could do it right from the new
website.
Speaker 2 (46:05):
Click that and it will launch an email to us, but
it'll already have the parcel IDcaption in there.
Speaker 1 (46:10):
So you just say what, what your request is, and your
area appraiser will contact youto come out and take care so not
to put you on the spot ifyou've only got a nine second
hold time, I'm wondering.
My next question would be howlong would it usually take to
get an appraiser out, like we've, because these, you know, when
they go to list of propertieslike we want it today, it's got
to be up today.
You know how long does itusually take you to get somebody
(46:30):
.
Speaker 2 (46:30):
I mean it's usually within a few days.
It does depend on time of yearand just what their workload.
I mean your area appraisercould be on vacation, you know
it could be right things likethat usually pretty quickly.
Speaker 1 (46:41):
Yes, and how?
So let's come, let's just I, Iwill tell you, I'm certain that
90 plus percent of the time itis the thing we just talked
about they enclosed a porch.
They didn't know or say maybethey bought it that way, it was
never on there.
But let's just, for giggleshere, say that we did, we missed
it.
You're right, it should havebeen 2200 square foot, is 1800
(47:03):
square foot?
Or if they want to go ahead andinclude the maybe unpermitted
Stuff in there, how long wouldit take to reflect on the on the
site, for you to update therecords?
Speaker 2 (47:14):
right.
Well, once, once the appraiserhas been out and they make their
changes I mean so in theory,literally, with usually within
24 hours, because our site flipseach night, so any changes made
during the day will will rollover that night and be available
after midnight.
Speaker 1 (47:32):
So this appraiser goes out in the field, they make
the determination that, yeah,we're gonna add some homestead
or some square footage to thisproperty Do.
Then they just that, input itand it's reflecting the next day
, or somebody, dad, yeah.
Speaker 2 (47:44):
I mean, if it's extensive, it could take more
than a day, you know, if theyhave to literally have to redraw
a bunch of you know resketchthe property, things like that.
Or if they need to talk Totheir director about hey, I got
a weird one here.
You know how do we want to tagthis space versus that space?
Speaker 1 (48:01):
So but it's not that long, right, and once we have
that, by the way, this is to youagents.
But once we have that, once wehave a, mike's office is working
on it yeah, they acknowledgethere's you.
You want 400 or 500 or 1000square feet added and
everybody's on time, you can goahead and list it and manually
override the property at thatpoint, or the MLS and I app on
(48:22):
that.
So, all right, let's see if wecan do maybe a quick five
minutes on the new website.
Sure, can you tell me what'sgoing on with that?
I know that's been a A work inprogress for you and a labor of
love, but it's absolutely herenow.
Speaker 2 (48:39):
Yes, it is.
It is, and we got some greatnews from our vendor last night
that they fixed some stuff withthe, the mobile application that
was given me fits, because itwas working fine and then all of
a sudden it broke, which.
So I'll talk about that servicein a minute.
But so we will be setting sun,setting the old site.
You know it served us well for,you know, absolutely over a
(49:02):
quarter of a century.
But that's the dot org.
Now in the next few weeks you'reor hopefully in the next week
or two, you're going to see ifyou go to that site.
You're gonna see a pop-up witha countdown Essentially saying
you've got X amount of days youknow you can jump to the new
site now or in X amount of daysyou know this site will
self-destruct, kind of a message.
(49:23):
So we really want to encouragepeople to start migrating now,
get used to a dot gov.
They've been running inparallel for over a year now, so
it's not like people haven'thad some time to actually Get
out there and drive it.
You know the reviews weregetting or outstanding, the
people that actually go anddrive it or saying, oh, I don't
know, I could never go back tothe old one.
You know I can do so manydifferent things.
(49:43):
Right?
You know some of the neatfeatures in the new one that did
not exist in the prior site.
You can do custom reports now.
So instead of just printing thedetail page, you can actually
hit the custom report building Abutton and build out what you
want your report to be.
So it can be the full detailpage plus the latest deathe, the
last deed.
It can be the parcel recordcard, can be the FEMA letter.
(50:06):
You know a large aerial of theof the property there's.
There's about, I think aboutsix to eight items on there that
you can hide into permitting aswell to, not into, permitting.
So we have the permit links andthey have been heavily updated
and refined in the new site.
You got to remember we'reinteracting with 24 different
(50:28):
Municipalities andunincorporated County and
they're always moving the cheeseon us a little bit so their
URLs change, they change theirsystems, they change their
vendors that are hosting theirpermit applications, so they
break things.
And if you find broken linksrelated to permits, just shoot
that and we'll fix that stuffimmediately.
Okay, because sometimes you'llhave a situation where, okay,
(50:51):
the city was doing their ownpermitting, then they turned it
over to the county.
So now the string and the timeframe of where you have to point
everything Changes and you haveto build out tables that
address all the differentscenarios.
So we've been building that outfor the last two years, trying
to get that really tightened up,and whenever we find out
(51:13):
something's broken, we've gotour IT team jumps right on it.
Speaker 1 (51:17):
Awesome.
Well, I can tell you, I've hadan opportunity to play around on
the new site and it.
You know the old site.
It was an eight-cylinder withpower windows and power locks
and you know it was nice.
But this one's a Ferrari, it'sit's, it's humming, it's nice.
I really enjoy it.
Speaker 2 (51:33):
Yeah, it's, you know, completely mobile friendly.
It's got a neat thing right onthe on the homepage, into the
it's the search is front andcenter so you don't have to even
go into any drop downs oranything.
I like that and you can, andit's got a my location button
right there.
So if you literally if an agentpulls up in front of it in the
driveway of a home, it's mylocation, you're gonna get a
short list of the parcels you'restanding closest to and likely
(51:55):
the one your number one is theone you're on.
Wow, you touch that parcel.
Detail pops up.
Speaker 1 (52:00):
GIS department doing some work on that one?
Speaker 2 (52:03):
Yes, yes, and then you you can turn on if, once
you're on the maps, either onthe Parcel detail or on the big
map, you have a little thelittle location kind of teardrop
looking icon.
Yeah, you hit that and thatturns on the blue dot.
So now you can be driving aneighborhood and it's following
it's following you and showingyou where you're at.
I hope you guys are listening tothis and and then you can just
(52:25):
touch on the parcel and get inthe information changes to that
that parcel you're in front ofand I would venture to say your
information is a little moreaccurate than Zillow, or you
know.
Well, they're getting it from us, but it's just delayed, you
know.
They know it's, ours is.
And I will warn you, some ofthe different data vendors out
there will pull different thingsand interpret it wrong.
(52:46):
You know, first of all, theytake our fixtures and convert
that into baths at, which is notalways correct, right, because
we you know that how they'redoing it.
Speaker 1 (52:55):
I was really how they pulled that interesting.
Where could people find you andgive us your your last two
minutes here?
Speaker 2 (53:02):
Yeah, yeah, so so I'm always out bumping around.
You know work working in thecommunity, you know speaking
different groups, so so keep aneye out whether it's you know.
You know philanthropic clubs orreal estate professional groups
and, obviously, realtor titleEven, even law.
(53:22):
We do some CE, even for the barassociations.
With our in-house council, wework that together so you can
always catch me at speakingevents there.
And then we do public educationevery month and Right now we've
got the next one coming up July20.
So next Thursday in our SouthCounty Service Center, which is
(53:44):
on 2534 Street North.
It's our new facility.
We have a great training roomupstairs there and we do that
hybrid so you can come in online, you can register for that
session.
It will be a Noontime sessionNext Thursday and it's going.
This one's going to be on thenew website, so we're going to
(54:04):
dig into a bunch of the, thepower tools and bells and
whistles, and you know we dosome of the simple stuff first
and then we'll jump into somesome neat things that if you're
Any any profession within thereal estate industry, I would
say tune in To that one, becauseyou're going to learn a bunch
of powerful tips That'll makeyour daily life a lot better do
some 101 stuff, then get into alittle deeper, the 201 stuff,
(54:27):
and show them how to really makethat thing home.
Speaker 1 (54:29):
Well, I will tell you , we really appreciate you
coming in.
We are appreciative of you inyour office.
What you guys do in thecommunity, you've always just
just been championing the, thehomeowners.
You really have.
You've stood up to people onthat and we really appreciate it
.
So with that guys we're goingto wrap it up for this edition
of golf coast to space coast.
(54:51):
Thanks for tuning in and we'llcatch you all next time.
Hello and welcome to the golf coast to space coast
podcast at Charles Ruttenbergreality program for you to find
out where the rubber meets theroad and give you the facts you
need to help you navigate thereal estate industry out there.
So today I am joined by a veryspecial guest.
(00:20):
First we have Byron in thebooth force over here, but today
we have a very special guest.
His name is Mike Twitty, thehonorable Mike Twitty, your
Pinellas County propertyappraiser.
Very humble guy, but I'm goingto tell you a little bit about
his pedigree.
Why, why, how he got to wherehe is.
He's a lifelong resident ofPinellas County.
(00:41):
All right, me too, love that.
I was born and raised here,graduated from Largo High, he
went to the best school in thestate.
He went to the University ofFlorida don't hate out there
with a degree in businessadministration and majored in
real estate and urban analysis.
He also, guys, has a Floridareal estate brokers license and
(01:03):
he also was a state certifiedgeneral appraiser.
That was the perfect segue intohis business to what he is
today.
So his job with the PinellasCounty property appraiser, his
duly elected official position,is a political job.
You got to run for that everyfour years, don't you?
Yes, you do.
This guy has the pedigree forthe job.
He not only knows what he'sdoing out there, he's done it,
(01:28):
and so when he assesses yourvalue on your house, you're
going to have a hard timearguing that, aren't you?
So with that, I want to turn itover.
Mike, thanks for coming back.
We appreciate having you here.
Thank you, mike.
Thanks for having me in.
Well, so what is going on?
I heard that you just got thevalues up and yes, yes, so you
know.
Speaker 2 (01:46):
It's really important for everybody to understand.
Whenever we post our valueseach year, it's as of a static
point in time, so it's alwaysthat January one effective date
of value.
So you know when people are outthere getting appraisals on
their homes, those are typically, you know an as is value as of
a current date in most cases.
So when you look at our ourwebsite, don't think it's you
(02:07):
know a current value as of thetime you're looking at it.
It's always as of typically themost recent January one.
However, we just posted oureffective January one 2023
values on the website this week.
So, because it takes the firsthalf of the year really to get
all that stuff together, we haveto let all the data come in
(02:28):
from the prior year and closethe year out, and a lot of that
doesn't record until in throughthe first quarter.
You know, to sort it all out,pick up new construction, do all
those types of things.
Speaker 1 (02:39):
A lot of parcels out there to get the information on.
So so you guys just got the,the trim notices.
I guess, right, we call it.
Well, no, so what do we callthat?
Speaker 2 (02:49):
Yeah, so the trim notices don't come out until the
third week of August, so that'swhen you get your official trim
notice.
We we just released what wecall the preliminary values.
So those are the July onevalues we certify and send up to
the Department of Revenue andwe also provided to all the
taxing authorities.
So they're using that to startdoing their budgeting process.
So they'll set their, theirtentative millage rates, which
(03:13):
are their tax rates, right, andthen you'll see those on the
trim notice by a taxingauthority in August.
But just so you all know, sothe values, you can go check
your value that is likely goingto be on your trim notice now.
So if you you go to the website, you look at your value, you
can check your exemptions and ifyou see something that looks
out of line, just call ouroffice because we'll explain
(03:36):
whatever we need to explain toyou and help walk you through it
.
Speaker 1 (03:39):
Perfect.
I appreciate that.
Now, when you say the differenttaxing authorities, could you
give guys, the listeners outthere, a quick idea on what
we're talking about when we talkto who's what and where they're
at?
Sure?
Speaker 2 (03:52):
sure?
So taxing authorities areessentially all your.
You know, first of all, your 24different cities and your
unincorporated county.
Those are all different taxingauthorities.
We have almost 60 differenttaxing authorities within
Pinellas County.
How do you keep all thisstraight?
yeah, so all different millagerates, I have a really good
staff, because we have to, youknow, keep track of all that
(04:14):
stuff as well.
So, but then you have thingslike the school board, psta,
juvenile welfare board, swift,mud.
You know, there's all theseother line items that show up on
your trim notice.
They're on your trim notice.
We show everything that's inyour tax district.
So wherever you live, you'regoing to have different taxing
(04:35):
authority lines and differenttax rates based on those
authorities.
So you know, to keep it simple,the, the equation for a tax
bill is basically taxable value,which we determine, times tax
rate, which the taxingauthorities determine equals tax
dollars.
Speaker 1 (04:53):
So just so we're clear, they shouldn't call you
when their millage goes up.
Speaker 2 (04:58):
We have nothing to do with millage right, you just
set the values.
Right, we're following themarket.
So the market goes up, marketgoes up.
If it goes down, it goes down,and then we administer all the
exemptions.
Speaker 1 (05:09):
So we have, wow, a lot of questions, a lot of
things going on.
So what's going on?
I mean we could go back for 20,obviously this year.
See where you're.
You're going backwards andlooking at a time.
So what would you say postCOVID?
We've seen here in 20, 21, 22,just a ballpark in it.
(05:29):
What kind of value increasehave we seen in those three
years?
Speaker 2 (05:35):
Yeah, so post COVID, we basically the last two years
just value jumped for a singlefamily, the.
If you took the median priceper square foot of a single
family home, it jumped 21% thelast two years in a row, which
is the two highest on record 21%a piece.
Speaker 1 (05:56):
Yes, yes, oh wow.
Speaker 2 (05:59):
Yes, now it.
That's.
That's the year as a whole.
Now obviously we we trendedbackwards, some in the back half
of last year, right, you knowsome of it.
Some neighborhoods flattenedout, some slipped back a little
bit, but overall the number wasstill up.
So our taxable value increased11.7% countywide on average.
(06:23):
So some tax taxingjurisdictions were less than
that and some were a little bitmore.
Speaker 1 (06:30):
So that's 11% for this year, correct?
Speaker 2 (06:33):
So we had 21 and 11.
Speaker 1 (06:35):
I can do some quick math that's like 50%.
Speaker 2 (06:38):
Well, well, well you got to think those are different
things.
So so one is overall movementof market value and the other
one is taxable value.
So taxable value already takesaway that's got save our homes
caps factored in, it's gotexemptions factored in, so it's
it's not apples and apples.
Speaker 1 (06:54):
That's not.
I got it, that's so.
I would imagine these taxingauthorities and the board of
county commissioners and allthese people that get to spend
that revenue that you increasedare really happy with you,
aren't?
Speaker 2 (07:06):
they, yes, they are, I try to encourage them to.
Hey, you know, we've had 11years of positive taxable value
growth, you know, and it'sprobably averaged in the seven
to eight percent a year rangeover that 11 year span and it's
been pushing 12% the last twoyears and in some jurisdictions
it's been as high as 15%.
You know it wouldn't be such abad thing to roll some milled
(07:30):
rates.
But however, you know, obviouslythey've got their own
priorities they have to dealwith and you know, I don't know
all the inner workings of allthose budgetary needs and
obviously we've had inflationthat's been record, record
levels here in the last coupleyears, so that's been
problematic.
So there's.
(07:51):
They have a lot on their plateto to ferret out and you know
the cost of all the servicesthey provide, whether it's the
labor piece keeping their, their, their labor force happy, and
then just all the cost ofmaterials and construction.
You know building roads andbuilding new buildings all those
things have not gotten anycheaper at all, not one bit.
Speaker 1 (08:15):
Would your office have any data on the influx of
people?
I understand you guys, that'snot what you do, but do you have
any idea of if there's beenmore people come into Pinellas
County in the last three years,just versus?
Speaker 2 (08:28):
oh yes, they're half, and I usually, once a year,
I'll kind of dig into thosenumbers a little bit.
It's a little, it's kind of ahard thing to bear it out.
I usually will get some, somedriver's license information
from the, from our tax collector.
I'll look at, you know, normalpopulation trend information
(08:49):
that I can get a look at touristdata and, you know, look
through that stuff to see if,you know, is Penelope's getting
greater than their, their prorat, a share of the, you know,
roughly 1200 people a day.
Speaker 1 (09:02):
I would think so, with all of our beaches here to.
Speaker 2 (09:05):
Florida and the data I've looked at.
It says yes, okay, you knowthat that are the Tampa Bay
market is a very strong draw.
Obviously there's morerestrictions on affordable
housing within Penelope'sbecause we're effectively you
know, us and Monroe County,which is the keys, were really
the first two built out countiesIn the state of Florida, so
(09:27):
everybody else has some sort ofdevelopable land.
Ours is all redeveloped, youknow so right, well, fantastic
news.
Speaker 1 (09:36):
Do you have anything you want?
Else, you want to update us onthe market update of the report,
for we move on to other topics.
Speaker 2 (09:42):
Yeah, let's, let's talk a little bit about you know
, obviously supply has remainedtight, particularly in
Penelope's.
We see it.
Yeah, I mean it's not as tightin Statewide.
You know it's slipping a littlebit there, but you know
Penelope still remains on singlefamily under two months of
supply.
We know that roughly six monthsis a, you know, balance market.
So still still definitely aseller's market at this point.
(10:06):
But there are there is a lotmore negotiation going on.
You would know that better thanme, but that's what I'm seeing
and hearing.
Speaker 1 (10:13):
Finally leveling out the playing field a little bit.
The poor buyers were reallybehind the eight ball here the
last three years.
It was a really frustratingsituation for most buyers and
they were trying in earnest toTo make a good offer on a fair
property and, just you know,there was 45 other other bidders
on that same property.
Speaker 2 (10:31):
Yeah, that makes it challenging.
But we have seen condos go up,they have crept up and it's over
three months supply.
It was down as low as thesingle family at one point
because it was a more affordableprice point, you know.
So it actually at one point Ithink he this will apply even
got under single family for avery short period.
Wow, I mean it was.
They were really close but itmight have been just for a month
(10:52):
.
But now we're starting to see aclimb and obviously we've got
that new condominium legislationthat passed last year that I
think is starting to rear itshead and have some impact there.
Speaker 1 (11:04):
Are you seeing that that might be bringing the
values down a little bit?
I understand that you knowinventories up, but certainly
not at a equilibrium point yet.
Are you seeing, is it yourfeeling, that the condo laws,
the new condo, the uncertaintyof it all is, is bringing the
values down a little bit?
Speaker 2 (11:20):
Yes.
Well, what we're seeing is somepeople are because of the
uncertainty.
They don't know what they're,they haven't had their report
done yet, they're, they're phaseone, right call it.
They haven't had that done yet,but they might know they're
building pretty well and theymight be skeptical, so they're
going ahead and putting theirunits up for sale now before
it's done.
(11:40):
But what we think is going tohappen is you're going to see a
recalibration of values as wemove through the next two years,
because they've got a deadlineof the end of twenty twenty four
.
They're supposed to have thesedone and at that point you
should know what the cost isgoing to be to cure if you've
had to go to a phase twosituation to actually cure a
(12:02):
structural defect, and that atthat point you know those
associations and those ownersare going to have to pony up and
fill that gap.
Speaker 1 (12:10):
To make a special assessment.
Speaker 2 (12:12):
Right and we're starting to see some of those
have kicked in on certainproperties and where those have
kicked in, there is starting tobe a recalibration of pricing,
as you would expect, because now, all of a sudden, if you get
hit with a hundred thousanddollar special assessment, it's
going to affect the value of theproperty?
Speaker 1 (12:29):
Right, and you know the people.
You know sad fact is, peoplemight have come here twenty,
fifteen, thirty years ago andthey could afford it then.
And things are going to bechanging and it's going to come
on the market and come online.
Unfortunately, that's just thecycle of the business, nothing
we can do about that, right?
Well, fantastic news.
So, listen, we've got somequestions for you that have come
(12:54):
in.
We're going to talk about OK,you got a new site.
Yes, we'll talk about at theend of the, the podcast here.
We want to know all about it.
I know you guys have beenworking on it.
I think, on top of your wholepedigree, I think that you also
know a little bit abouttechnology.
I have found out you're pretty.
I don't want to call tech nerd,but you are, you kind of a tech
(13:14):
nerd.
Speaker 2 (13:15):
I probably used to be more.
Now I don't have as much timefor it.
Speaker 1 (13:20):
You are out there quite a bit, by the way, when
you say you don't have much time.
Speaker 2 (13:23):
Yes, I don't know but .
But I was heavily involved inthe in the website redesign.
I mean literally it's we'veI've been participated in a
daily for three years, so so alot of the, the vision, the.
You know I was steering thatalong with some of my staff, and
we worked with an outsidevendor that had never built a
(13:44):
property appraisers website andwe had a design because I wanted
.
I wanted somebody that couldgive us the good user interface
tools and functionality, but wewanted to control the back end
and we wanted to give them theguidance on how we wanted the
flow to be, the tools that we'regoing to, that we are going to
develop and put on the site.
Speaker 1 (14:05):
The developer come, give it the warm, fuzzy, user
friendly feel and you guys takecare of all the data and
technology on the backside andinformation that's coming out
and it makes a lot of sense.
Those are.
Those are always challenges forcompanies, anytime going
through an update or a changeover in system, and I can
imagine that you guys have beenworking really hard on this.
Speaker 2 (14:26):
Oh yeah.
Speaker 1 (14:27):
And how many parcels again in?
In Fidelis County about 450,000.
So you got to have this thingright for half a million parcels
out there.
Yes, yes.
Speaker 2 (14:36):
And that's something we actually introduced to.
So, of that, that parcelbreakdown, it's basically
435,000 of real real estateparcels and then about another
15.
Thousand of your businesstangible personal property
accounts.
So those are now on the site towhich have never been out there
before.
So businesses can go on andsearch the tangible and get
their information.
(14:56):
For the last two years.
Speaker 1 (14:57):
That's really neat.
So that'll lead me to one ofour rapid fire questions real
quick.
We get calls here all the timefrom agencies.
You can imagine hey, I want tosell a mobile home.
Okay, quick question down theland and the mobile, then you
can handle it as a realtor.
If not, I always tell them lookfor that TPP sticker on the on
the mobile.
Is that still what you guys dowhen you go out there to these
(15:21):
mobile home parks that are parkowned lots, and do you have to
send crews out every so often toinspect those?
How does that work?
Speaker 2 (15:28):
Yes, yeah, we have a manufactured home team that that
goes out and looks at those,because, yeah, you've got your
lot rental parks, you've gotyour co-op parks, you've got,
you know, straight residentowned, you've got people on fee
simple land.
There's a lot of differentmanufactured home park scenarios
that make those challenging,because some just have a DMV
(15:52):
license on the on the unit andthen others have a TPP sticker
and then others have a real realestate.
Speaker 1 (15:59):
They could just have a license plate on there.
Basically, yes, with the newsite or the old site that I know
you're going to be phasing outsoon, I understand, or hope.
Is there any way to go on thesite and tell whether it's this
these particular parks, are realproperty or tangible property,
or is it something they justhave to physically go out and
(16:20):
find out themselves.
Speaker 2 (16:21):
You can kind of read the tea leaves by looking at the
parcel information, but itdoesn't specifically tell you
that.
Speaker 1 (16:29):
Okay, you know what you're looking for.
You go to the specific parceland you see it's owned by some
big management company or thename of the park or what not.
Obviously it's part, right.
Speaker 2 (16:39):
Okay, right, exactly, it's under one ownership.
It lights up as one big parcelon our map and you see only one
owner for the whole thing.
Well, that's a lot rental park.
Speaker 1 (16:50):
So now your units are likely licensed, got it, and
that's a probably one of themost calls we get around.
Okay, so my buddy or my friendis selling their mobile and you
know, can I handle thistransaction?
Well, they own the real estate,right, and they own the mobile.
You can certainly handle it.
So let's let me ask you, man,we're just going to bounce
(17:12):
around here a little bit.
If that's okay with everybody,I'm going to ask you a hot
button.
What do you?
What's going on with?
How does it reflect on on onthe site and on the parcel
information with a paste loan.
Speaker 2 (17:26):
I knew I was going to get aggravated on this one,
guys.
Speaker 1 (17:28):
Oh yeah.
Speaker 2 (17:30):
Pinellas just won a suit with PACE and Pinellas.
Pace was only authorized forcommercial in Pinellas County.
The county commission had toapprove residential and they
never have.
However, there was a bondvalidation hearing a year ago in
(17:56):
Leon County, which isTallahassee area, and in that
bond validation the judge made aruling and basically had a
ruling that gave PACE a comfortlevel to think, oh, based on
that ruling, we can operatewithout any agreements or
ordinances passed by localgovernment in any county within
(18:18):
the state.
And they literally sent everycounty letter saying, oh, we're
not abiding by any agreements wehad in the past, we don't need
them anymore.
So all those agreements went bythe wayside and they just
started making PACE loans.
So we have over 60 of them inPinellas since the beginning of
the year and they are notauthorized to occur.
(18:38):
They will not be reflected onour site or on trim notices
because we literally have noconnection or relationship with
those vendors.
Speaker 1 (18:51):
So you I guess there's a relationship Obviously
, you basically bill for the taxcollector and the tax collector
now won't, is not going to becollecting or not going to be
enforced, and putting these onthere.
Speaker 2 (19:05):
Right.
The collector will not bebilling those either, so those
will not be on the tax bill, soas it stands right now.
So Pinellas had requested anemergency hearing.
That hearing went, it fell inPinellas' favor and I believe
now PACE is appealing so it'sall hanging out there right now.
(19:28):
So our status right now is weare not putting those on the
trim notices and the taxcollectors not putting them on
the bills, so anything itdoesn't mean that those people
are off the hook on thatobligation of that debt.
However, those PACE is going tohave to find a way to collect
that money themselves and rightnow we don't look at them as
(19:48):
being in first position becausethat if they're on the trim
notice, that is a non-advalorumspecial assessment and puts them
in first super priorityposition above any first or
second mortgages and that in mymind it takes that away.
Speaker 1 (20:04):
So they had a sales program out there to go sell,
get you and literally bump itwas same as your property taxes,
it was a property tax at thatpoint.
Speaker 2 (20:15):
It was, and I never felt like the PACE program
should have been able to tap theuse of non-advalorum
assessments, because it's really.
It's set up to be a uniformspecial assessment.
It's supposed to be uniformity.
So they come in and you'reundergrounding utilities in a
neighborhood.
(20:35):
That's a uniform assessment.
All the people in theneighborhood are getting that
assessment.
When you come in and make asingle PACE loan on one property
that there's nothing uniformabout that, no, no, all you're
doing is jumping ahead.
You're not having to meet fairlending rules and all that and
you're jumping ahead of anyexisting debt that's already on
that property.
Speaker 1 (20:56):
We have seen.
You can imagine, in our worldwe see a lot of issues.
Some of the residents orsellers didn't even know that
this was on there and I'm sureyou see it as well.
Like, hey, how this could on mybill?
Well, you signed the paperworkfor it and it got recorded and
it's on.
So this is, if you wereprognasticating, where do you
(21:18):
see this going with the PACEloans?
It's a sticky button.
I know there's I don't know alot of people for it.
I know now there's a lot ofpeople that aren't in favor of
it.
I don't really hear theproponents, other than the
people with the PACE loans oh,of course that are championing
this cause.
Where do you see this going inthe next five, 10 years?
Speaker 2 (21:35):
Yeah, it's gonna be interesting.
I don't know if some of theoutreach is gonna get big enough
for the legislature to actuallystep reverse course on some of
this, because obviously theyallowed this to go through to
begin with and I never felt italways felt a little unsavory to
me because the PACE vendorswould always act like they were
(21:55):
partnered with governmentCorrect and like it was part of
a government program and itreally isn't, you know, and I
just don't think they shouldhave been allowed to use the
uniform method of assessment inhow they do it Now in Pinellas
we haven't really had to dealwith the issues to this point
because they weren't allowed, sowe didn't have any.
But I've got horror stories frommy fellow property appraisers
(22:20):
in other counties where it hasbeen allowed and some of those
counties it's been repealed.
The commission went back andrepealed it because it got so
bad.
And then others still have itbut they say it's a big problem
and they would really like toget rid of it.
And many times the rates are ata user's interest rate if
(22:43):
people are getting overchargedfor the product itself.
Speaker 1 (22:46):
And if you run it out and see what they'd pay for a
new air conditioner over thelife of that loan, it'll shock
you.
Yes, I've seen $40,000 aircondition in your units before.
Speaker 2 (22:56):
It's just insane.
Yes, exactly and it certainlyisn't in the best interest of
the public and I would encourageanybody that is in that
position that if you can do ahome equity line, definitely go
that route.
Speaker 1 (23:09):
A credit card would be better.
Speaker 2 (23:10):
Right, our credit card is better.
Yes, because you have theability to pay it off a lot
quicker.
And I think some of thesepastelones, have prepayment
penalties and different thingsin there too, depending on how
they're Steep.
Speaker 1 (23:22):
yes, Steep, really.
Yeah, it's difficult totransfer it over, even if the
new owner's willing to accept it, and just a big issue that I
hope we see some resolve withhere coming soon.
All right?
So I'm gonna bounce over againand ask you another question.
Tell us what is the importantof All right?
(23:43):
So let me back up one second.
I know that and I happen to knowthis and just by accident, that
a while back you might havetaken some heat from your fellow
property appraisers aboutsomething I think that you did
that was protecting the public,and that's when I sell my house
(24:07):
in March or April and, forwhatever reason, I call the
property appraisers office and Istrip my homestead off of that,
I think.
Tell me what you did.
I think you stepped out on alimb and did something a little
different and allowed that newowner am I correct here?
To carry out the rest of thatyear what the tax bill was when
they purchased that property.
(24:27):
And then, of course, they talkabout their set, their tax bill
with the cap being reset and allthat.
Well.
Speaker 2 (24:34):
I mean it, it's always been in place, it's in
statute that you know you.
Basically, if you buy aproperty, if you brought a
property on July one from ahomesteader, you get the benefit
of that homestead and theirexemptions through the rest of
that tax year, unless thatselling homesteader strips that
(24:55):
homestead before the sale.
So if they contact a propertyappraiser's office and say, hey,
I'm out of here, remove myhomestead for this tax year,
then yes, it can get removed.
I think what you're thinkingabout is.
So if somebody does that beforethe normal March one filing
deadline, they're totally intheir right to do that.
(25:18):
What we did is we stepped up andsaid, hey, if they pull it off
after March one, we know thatthe seller has an ulterior
motive and a lot of times whatit was was they had already
bought another home, maybe evenin another county say, they
bought it in 22.
Okay, so they bought it in 2022.
The new buyer had no idea thatthe homesteader on the property
(25:42):
they were buying is gonna getstripped, but they strip it
before March one and they filefor the other house because they
already owned it in 22.
So they would qualify basicallyfor January one of 2023, the
property appraiser wouldn'tnecessarily Okay, and you're
right, that is what I wasthinking.
Yes.
So what we did is we said okay,if we run across those after
(26:05):
March one, we're gonna deny themfrom pulling that away, because
they marketed it as a homesteadproperty in most cases.
We've talked about putting some.
We've actually talked with theboard of realtors about maybe
including that in disclosures.
Even there is that homestead.
(26:26):
Yes, no kind of thing.
But maybe take that a little bitfurther and say does the seller
intend to leave homestead inplace for the tax year of sale,
or something like this, just toput a little more teeth into it,
because the yes, no, it'sreally not enough.
Speaker 1 (26:47):
Yeah, I would imagine those are the calls that come
to your the lender who's loaningthe money, and they wouldn't
even know that when it gotstripped prior.
They look at it.
Here's the tax bill we can baseon this year, so I could see
where even title companieswouldn't even know how to do the
pro-rations properly on aclosing a lot of things
triggered there.
Speaker 2 (27:06):
Yeah, so they pull that off.
So then you get messed up inthe pro-ration.
All of a sudden, the cap resetsin the year that you bought
instead of in the next year, soeverything comes to you in a lot
faster fashion.
Speaker 1 (27:20):
Yeah, you just get hit quicker with the reality of
home ownership at that point andpaying your taxes.
So this will lead us right intoif you know you with your real
estate background, your privateappraisal companies.
You've been out there in thereal world very much as well as
(27:41):
the political office world.
What would you tell an agent?
To try and best simplify in asentence or two or three they
seem to want to talk so too muchsometimes To explain to their
new buyer about here's what youshould know about Homestead in
Pinellas County, the datesimportant and all these things.
(28:03):
What would you tell an agentlike hey, this is your client,
here's your standard go-to.
Speaker 2 (28:07):
Yeah, and a lot of times they're dealing with it
could be an out-of-state buyeror a first-time buyer or even a
long-time homesteader.
That just doesn't understand.
Now they've built up a largeamount of port for portability
and they don't understand howthat works.
So the big thing is for them,first of all, to tell their
client do not look at theseller's taxes, because that
means nothing other than for theyear of pro-ration.
(28:30):
So beyond that it is a wholefresh new ball game.
You're gonna go to market, thecap's gonna reset.
Their best bet is to go to ourtax estimator and on the website
run.
That takes about five seconds,yeah, enter a couple of quick
(28:51):
pieces of information and itruns a legitimate estimate of
what you're likely gonna face inthe next tax year.
So it's after you cross yourfirst January, one of ownership.
Speaker 1 (29:03):
And that January one date is very important for your
homestead because that's thesnapshot you take of value.
And I think the other thing isyou gotta own it January one and
you've gotta reside in it,correct?
What is your criteria litmustest, if you will, for people
actually living in the home?
What are you guys gonna do?
Speaker 2 (29:23):
Yeah, I mean we're looking.
Hopefully they have a driver'slicense at that point, but a lot
of times they don't if they'renew to the state.
But we're looking for if it'stouchy, it might be a utility
bill, something to place inDisha that they owned and
occupied as of that point intime.
And then, as far as forms of IDwe're looking for is obviously
(29:48):
your DL, your car registrationin the state here locally,
voter's ID, those kind of things, and it's not any one of those
that you necessarily have tohave.
Ultimately you do have to havea DL, but we know that sometimes
that gets delayed.
You won't necessarily have thatright on January one.
Speaker 1 (30:07):
So you guys kind of take a preponderance of the
evidence and say, okay, it lookslike you're living here, so
let's talk the negative side ofthat.
What would happen if somebodywas found to be fudging on their
homestead and not reallyresiding there?
What kind of actions do youguys take to prevent that from
happening?
Speaker 2 (30:23):
Yes.
So we've got queries that werun different things.
We've got internal checks.
We've got investigators thatare looking out there and
following up on claims ofhomestead fraud.
A lot of it comes fromneighbors the nosy neighbor
that's how you find outeverything.
They often have more intel thananybody else out there or at
(30:45):
least they think they do.
They're not always right, theyhave their own intel anyways.
Sometimes it'll be, somebodywill turn in their neighbor and
really the owner was out of townfor two months but they had
other family members come in andstay at their house for a
couple months and they thinkthey're Airbnb'ing it and all
that kind of thing.
So we get a lot of those too.
So we have to ferret throughall of that.
Speaker 1 (31:07):
So what would happen if somebody was committing
homestead fraud?
What is the penalties to that?
Speaker 2 (31:11):
Yeah, so it's not a penalty that you want to have to
endure, so I do not recommendanybody trying to falsify
homestead.
Obviously it was put in placefor a reason to just apply to
people that is their primaryresidence, so the penalty is
quite stiff.
So it's a 50% penalty plus 15%interest per year and we can go
(31:35):
back 10 years on homestead fraud.
Speaker 1 (31:38):
So the 50% comes on the tax bill.
It's 50% of what the tax bill.
What's the 50%?
Speaker 2 (31:44):
penalty 50% of the Whatever the bill would have
been the bill would have beenthe outstanding amount.
Speaker 1 (31:50):
Oh no, you don't want to.
Yeah, that could be multiple.
Speaker 2 (31:51):
You don't want to fudge that it could potentially
be multiple years.
Yeah, I think people don't takethat as serious as they should
sometimes.
Speaker 1 (31:58):
That's a serious offense, so don't be messing
around with your homestead, andthink you know little tips too.
Speaker 2 (32:04):
If so, you have two homesteaders, they get married.
Make sure you pull one of thoseoff and you take which one.
Speaker 1 (32:12):
Well, it depends Well , it depends on which one they
want to live in.
Speaker 2 (32:15):
Oh no, I was talking about the cap, yeah yeah, if
you're reporting from one to theother, then yeah, take the
biggest cap.
Speaker 1 (32:21):
I gotcha.
And in a situation where twopeople are, can they let's say a
couple does divorce?
Unfortunately that does happenand they've lived in the same
home for a long time and theyhave a big cap.
How could one get some of it?
What do they do with that?
Speaker 2 (32:39):
Yeah, typically it's a 50-50 split is the way that
statutorily it's designed towork.
However, there is a form thatyou can fill out and submit to a
property appraiser's officethat you can specify the
percentage that each would get,so it could be 100% and zero or
anything in between, so thatmight even be part of at this
(33:03):
point.
As large as ports are, itreally should be part of the
negotiation of a divorce, of adivorce.
Speaker 1 (33:09):
Yeah, those attorneys need some money to settle some
things too.
Speaker 2 (33:12):
So to argue back and forth, but a lot of times you
get a situation where one spouseremains in the marital home,
the other leaves.
It, may not, might even leavethe state or doesn't have the
intent, doesn't think they'regonna buy within the portability
window something like that, andthey may still be on the
mortgage on the other house andthey're still literally paying
(33:35):
that mortgage.
So they really don't wanna losethat cap.
So they might say, just leave100% over there on the homestead
.
Speaker 1 (33:42):
Okay, yeah, that makes sense.
And, like you say, and what isthe caps now?
What is the maximum cap for amarried person or a single
person?
Speaker 2 (33:51):
Well it's not yeah, it's not based on that like it
is for federal, for IRSguidelines, the 250 and the 500
based on the gain.
This is different.
So this is up to 500,000 iswhat your port is, from one
property to the next.
That's a nice-.
Speaker 1 (34:07):
That you can carry with you, if it's over if you
have more.
Speaker 2 (34:09):
We have homes with million dollar caps on them, or
port amounts, I should say, orhomestead benefits.
So those would get pared down.
The 500 would be the maximum.
Speaker 1 (34:21):
Right right, all right, let's bounce around to
another topic.
Well, real quick.
How long?
Explain to them?
They sell their house.
They had another house undercontract maybe it was new
construction and they thought itwas gonna be done in December,
but it didn't get done untilFebruary.
(34:41):
How long would they have to notlose that port after they sold
their home?
Speaker 2 (34:47):
Right, so-.
Speaker 1 (34:48):
They're capping that port, so Correct.
Speaker 2 (34:50):
So that was a piece of legislation that I carried
forward and championed.
Speaker 1 (34:54):
We appreciate that Well, you're welcome.
Speaker 2 (34:57):
So and that's been a big help to a lot of people a
lot of people were missing outwith the former law stated two
tax years.
However, two tax years could beas short as basically a year
and a day.
So because again we're back tothat January one, that's that
magic date.
So if you only got to two years, if you sold at the beginning
of the year, if you sell at theend of the year, you've already
(35:19):
burned your first tax year.
So we had lots of people goinginto new construction that were
totally losing their ability toport.
Then we had this thing calledthe pandemic that actually in
supply got so tight peoplecouldn't even buy something if
they wanted to, so it ended upreally helping a lot of people
giving that.
So what we did is we added anextra tax year.
(35:39):
So now law reads three taxyears, which worst case scenario
is always gonna give you atleast two.
But so usually you're gonna besomewhere in that two to three
window, depending on what timeof year you sell.
Speaker 1 (35:53):
So if you've had built up a big home.
Say of our homestead cap.
You can port it, transfer itover up to three years Is the
new one.
Yeah, that is a maximum.
Yeah, but it could technicallybe two years in a day.
You close on January 2nd, youdon't qualify for homestead for
that year.
So thankfully you've gone toback.
And that's the point I wasmaking with our earlier comment
(36:15):
about how you didn't allow thesepeople to strip homesteads.
I know some property appraiserswere back in the day.
I don't know what's been goingon in the last couple of years
since portability and that was.
We really appreciate that youwere looking out for the
consumer and the taxpayers atthat point and they shouldn't
have been blindsided by that.
So we appreciate that.
So I wanna ask you one morething.
(36:36):
A popular thing out there toown properties in now is a trust
because of the protections youcan get in the estate planning.
That's done with that.
But I know if people aren'tcareful they don't put a trust
together properly and they couldactually lose their homestead.
Correct, that's correct.
(36:57):
Tell us a little bit about howyou should suggest they work
around that yes.
Speaker 2 (37:02):
So we have in house counsel in our office.
He's actually was recently justpromoted to the director of our
exemptions department.
He worked so close with themanyway on approvals of different
larger exemptions, and so he isthe perfect contact for this
stuff.
So if you ever have a questionyou wanna vet some trust
(37:22):
language ahead of time, beforeyou finalize it, just push it
over to our office or call ouroffice and ask for a gentleman
named Alex Luca.
He is our in house counsel andhe's the only attorney in our
office.
So even if they call in andjust say, hey, can I talk to
your?
in house counsel about sometrust language.
Speaker 1 (37:43):
You'll say sure and they'll get you connected and
then you can share that languageand he can vet it and make sure
that it's appropriate, so thatBecause if you were to do this,
even by accident, and Alexcaught it and you lost your
homestead, if you've done thatand filed that, there's no going
back and getting that homesteadand that cap back correct.
Or is there some do over hereyou?
Speaker 2 (38:02):
have, we would have to pick up on it within the same
tax year to again we're back tothat magic January one.
So those are kind of lines inthe sand that once you cross
those it's hard to unwind things.
So one thing that we wereproactive about is because we
had a lot of people starting toget advice to put their
homesteads in LLCs, which is ano-no because it is a legal
(38:28):
change of ownership and it resetyour cap.
So you really don't wanna dothat.
Well, we run a query onanything that has any
significant taxable value changeeach month.
As those documents come through, specifically looking at LLC
properties and things like thatto see, and if it's over a
(38:48):
certain dollar threshold ofchange, we'll send them a letter
and say, hey, did you reallymean to do this Cause it's gonna
reset your cap.
I had a constituent call meyesterday about one where he
said hey, I got this letter.
I added myself to my mom's deedand in it I got this letter.
Or she got this letter thatsaid are you sure you wanna do
(39:10):
this this tax year?
Because it's going to resethalf of your cap.
And the reason it was half isbecause it was tenants in common
.
And I told him.
I said you should have made ajoint tenants with rights of
survivorship.
It wouldn't have reset her capas long as you didn't file for
homestead.
So he said thank you.
I put him in touch with Alex,our in-house counsel, and I said
(39:33):
let him look at it closer.
But that's what it looks liketo me on the surface, just when
you told me it's gonna resethalf.
That tells me tenants in common, and that language is in our
letter as well to him.
So he's gonna go back andthey're gonna redraft and get
the deed right.
Speaker 1 (39:47):
Get the deed right.
So that brings up another goodpoint how many LLCs?
Definitely you cannot havehomestead in an LLC owned
property, correct, correct?
Okay, so what forms or methodswould be joint tenants with
right of survivorship, a trustworded correctly?
What other deeds or transfer ofownership would be qualified,
(40:07):
still for your homestead?
Speaker 2 (40:10):
I mean life estates.
Ladybird deeds that type ofstuff.
Speaker 1 (40:14):
Okay, so really just ladybird.
Joint tenants with right ofsurvivorship and trust are the
only way you're gonna own aproperty that is eligible for
homestead in state of Florida.
Speaker 2 (40:23):
I mean, you can be homesteaded as tenants in common
, but you would wanna do that atthe front end generally.
So two people buy it, they'retenants in common, they wanna
leave it to other interests, toother people.
Then yes, you could bothhomestead simultaneous at the
front end and set a cap.
But you just gotta rememberthat if one of those interest
(40:45):
trades, then it could reset.
And what if?
Speaker 1 (40:48):
one of those interests.
Let's just say me and my buddybuy a house and we live there
and then my buddy went off andgot married and his life changed
.
How would it pick up that the50% of that homestead might be
gone?
So the other owner that isstill living there could be on
the hook for some potentialfraud by accident here they
(41:10):
moved out.
They didn't even know.
I still have it homesteaded,with both of us in here.
I've got his 50, my 50, he'sbeen gone for five years.
Your department picks it up andI'm oh my gosh, I'm on the hook
now for this 50% penalty on the50% of the homestead cap I lost
.
Speaker 2 (41:25):
Yeah, potentially.
Speaker 1 (41:26):
Yeah, so be careful is what.
That is the other thing I would.
So let's talk about whensomebody does have a joint
tenant with right ofsurvivorship or a lady bird deed
, enhanced life of statewhatever, and there's a death,
they don't, whatever the deed,it's in mine and my wife's name,
I pass.
And what would she do?
(41:47):
Could she just come out to youroffice and bring a death
certificate and you guys?
How would that work?
Speaker 2 (41:53):
Yes, yeah, that's typically what we would do.
We'd look at the deathcertificate and if you're both,
and even if the spouse wasn't ondeed for some reason we have a
lot of those where you'll have amarriage.
However, it was a single man orwoman that owned the house that
became the marital home andthey never they never updated
the deed to reflect the spouse.
(42:13):
That is the one case where wewill add the spouse.
You know that hasn't.
We'll just we call it spousenot on deed, essentially, and
that preserves the cap if theycan prove that they were
actually there and married.
Speaker 1 (42:29):
Okay, so I own the house.
I pass.
My wife never got added to thehouse.
She could actually come out,show that, not lose the home.
So she's lived there too for 20years.
That's a really good to know.
I hope you guys are listeningto that, because I think that
scenario could play out quite abit.
Speaker 2 (42:45):
Absolutely.
Now unfortunately that doesn'twork for other family members.
You know if you're not a spouse, you know if you're a child,
you're on the deed.
You're not homesteaded, say youknow son is living with mom.
Mom passes, she was thehomesteader.
Unfortunately, that cap isgoing to reset.
Speaker 1 (43:04):
Yeah, yeah, I get it, but it does certainly a spousal
protection.
I like the guys you call itthere.
So that's really good stuff toknow, and it sounds like to me
like if you're in confused aboutanything, just call Mike's
office.
Absolutely you'll get theanswers.
Speaker 2 (43:18):
Our average on hold time is nine seconds, so you
know no excuse not to call usreally, and we'll get you to a
warm body really fast that thatcan answer your questions.
You've got the tax estimatorout there 24 seven that you can
run To get information, and thenobviously the new website has
loads of information that willanswer.
You know, the majority ofpeople's questions if they, if
(43:41):
they comb through it enough,just go there and click around,
right, you'd be surprised theinformation you got.
Speaker 1 (43:46):
So another hot.
When we get in here all thetime Square footage discrepancy.
I think you and I we're talkingabout this a little bit before
the show started.
I get agents call here and go.
You know, hey, I'm app.
Or I always tell them go theirproperty appraisers office.
I've been doing this so long Iremember when you guys weren't
online.
I have to go to your office andget information.
Speaker 2 (44:06):
I was like I am dating myself.
I know I used to have to climbaround in courthouses and
property appraisers office tooaround the state.
Speaker 1 (44:13):
micro fish, yeah look some stuff up on.
The most of our listeners don'teven know what that is, I'm
sure.
But so your office, which isthe official holder of public
records for name address, legal,correct and yes, yeah, and any
address changes flow through usand go to the tax collector.
Speaker 2 (44:30):
So we're we're kind of in bed together there as far
as the way our address flowworks so the agent shows up and
you know, says you know, mrMissseller, I've.
Speaker 1 (44:43):
You know, mike's office has you at 1800 square
feet.
My broker has said I have tolist this property in the MLS at
1800 square feet and they'readamant that they have 2200
square feet or 2300 square feetand they want the agent to
override that manually in theMLS, which I will tell you as a
Litigious nightmare for me to dothat.
(45:03):
Don't do that, agents.
What would be the remedy there?
Here's what I usually tell themif you're confused, have your
seller, your property owner,call Mike's office and they'll
send somebody out to eitherstraighten it up They'll figure
it out and either come back,give you the bad news or go.
Oh, we had it wrong.
What?
What is the right way to gothere?
Speaker 2 (45:22):
Yes, that that is the right way to go.
Um, well, we'll send anappraiser out and they'll come
out, they'll remeasure, they'llinspect.
You know things like that, soyou know, oftentimes you know
it's something that was enclosed, might not have been permitted,
or or that permit fell throughthe cracks somewhere.
Speaker 1 (45:38):
Magically just disappeared.
Speaker 2 (45:40):
Yes, you know somebody enclosed a garage.
We don't know about, you knowthings like that.
But on the new website toanother quick little tip and
tool that is available, so ifyou're on the parcel detail, so
if you research a property andyou're on that that parcel
detail page, the little toolboxthat comes out on the right side
, one of the buttons there, willsay request property review.
Speaker 1 (46:02):
Oh, really, so you could do it right from the new
website.
Speaker 2 (46:05):
Click that and it will launch an email to us, but
it'll already have the parcel IDcaption in there.
Speaker 1 (46:10):
So you just say what, what your request is, and your
area appraiser will contact youto come out and take care so not
to put you on the spot ifyou've only got a nine second
hold time, I'm wondering.
My next question would be howlong would it usually take to
get an appraiser out, like we've, because these, you know, when
they go to list of propertieslike we want it today, it's got
to be up today.
You know how long does itusually take you to get somebody
(46:30):
.
Speaker 2 (46:30):
I mean it's usually within a few days.
It does depend on time of yearand just what their workload.
I mean your area appraisercould be on vacation, you know
it could be right things likethat usually pretty quickly.
Speaker 1 (46:41):
Yes, and how?
So let's come, let's just I, Iwill tell you, I'm certain that
90 plus percent of the time itis the thing we just talked
about they enclosed a porch.
They didn't know or say maybethey bought it that way, it was
never on there.
But let's just, for giggleshere, say that we did, we missed
it.
You're right, it should havebeen 2200 square foot, is 1800
(47:03):
square foot?
Or if they want to go ahead andinclude the maybe unpermitted
Stuff in there, how long wouldit take to reflect on the on the
site, for you to update therecords?
Speaker 2 (47:14):
right.
Well, once, once the appraiserhas been out and they make their
changes I mean so in theory,literally, with usually within
24 hours, because our site flipseach night, so any changes made
during the day will will rollover that night and be available
after midnight.
Speaker 1 (47:32):
So this appraiser goes out in the field, they make
the determination that, yeah,we're gonna add some homestead
or some square footage to thisproperty Do.
Then they just that, input itand it's reflecting the next day
, or somebody, dad, yeah.
Speaker 2 (47:44):
I mean, if it's extensive, it could take more
than a day, you know, if theyhave to literally have to redraw
a bunch of you know resketchthe property, things like that.
Or if they need to talk Totheir director about hey, I got
a weird one here.
You know how do we want to tagthis space versus that space?
Speaker 1 (48:01):
So but it's not that long, right, and once we have
that, by the way, this is to youagents.
But once we have that, once wehave a, mike's office is working
on it yeah, they acknowledgethere's you.
You want 400 or 500 or 1000square feet added and
everybody's on time, you can goahead and list it and manually
override the property at thatpoint, or the MLS and I app on
(48:22):
that.
So, all right, let's see if wecan do maybe a quick five
minutes on the new website.
Sure, can you tell me what'sgoing on with that?
I know that's been a A work inprogress for you and a labor of
love, but it's absolutely herenow.
Speaker 2 (48:39):
Yes, it is.
It is, and we got some greatnews from our vendor last night
that they fixed some stuff withthe, the mobile application that
was given me fits, because itwas working fine and then all of
a sudden it broke, which.
So I'll talk about that servicein a minute.
But so we will be setting sun,setting the old site.
You know it served us well for,you know, absolutely over a
(49:02):
quarter of a century.
But that's the dot org.
Now in the next few weeks you'reor hopefully in the next week
or two, you're going to see ifyou go to that site.
You're gonna see a pop-up witha countdown Essentially saying
you've got X amount of days youknow you can jump to the new
site now or in X amount of daysyou know this site will
self-destruct, kind of a message.
(49:23):
So we really want to encouragepeople to start migrating now,
get used to a dot gov.
They've been running inparallel for over a year now, so
it's not like people haven'thad some time to actually Get
out there and drive it.
You know the reviews weregetting or outstanding, the
people that actually go anddrive it or saying, oh, I don't
know, I could never go back tothe old one.
You know I can do so manydifferent things.
(49:43):
Right?
You know some of the neatfeatures in the new one that did
not exist in the prior site.
You can do custom reports now.
So instead of just printing thedetail page, you can actually
hit the custom report building Abutton and build out what you
want your report to be.
So it can be the full detailpage plus the latest deathe, the
last deed.
It can be the parcel recordcard, can be the FEMA letter.
(50:06):
You know a large aerial of theof the property there's.
There's about, I think aboutsix to eight items on there that
you can hide into permitting aswell to, not into, permitting.
So we have the permit links andthey have been heavily updated
and refined in the new site.
You got to remember we'reinteracting with 24 different
(50:28):
Municipalities andunincorporated County and
they're always moving the cheeseon us a little bit so their
URLs change, they change theirsystems, they change their
vendors that are hosting theirpermit applications, so they
break things.
And if you find broken linksrelated to permits, just shoot
that and we'll fix that stuffimmediately.
Okay, because sometimes you'llhave a situation where, okay,
(50:51):
the city was doing their ownpermitting, then they turned it
over to the county.
So now the string and the timeframe of where you have to point
everything Changes and you haveto build out tables that
address all the differentscenarios.
So we've been building that outfor the last two years, trying
to get that really tightened up,and whenever we find out
(51:13):
something's broken, we've gotour IT team jumps right on it.
Speaker 1 (51:17):
Awesome.
Well, I can tell you, I've hadan opportunity to play around on
the new site and it.
You know the old site.
It was an eight-cylinder withpower windows and power locks
and you know it was nice.
But this one's a Ferrari, it'sit's, it's humming, it's nice.
I really enjoy it.
Speaker 2 (51:33):
Yeah, it's, you know, completely mobile friendly.
It's got a neat thing right onthe on the homepage, into the
it's the search is front andcenter so you don't have to even
go into any drop downs oranything.
I like that and you can, andit's got a my location button
right there.
So if you literally if an agentpulls up in front of it in the
driveway of a home, it's mylocation, you're gonna get a
short list of the parcels you'restanding closest to and likely
(51:55):
the one your number one is theone you're on.
Wow, you touch that parcel.
Detail pops up.
Speaker 1 (52:00):
GIS department doing some work on that one?
Speaker 2 (52:03):
Yes, yes, and then you you can turn on if, once
you're on the maps, either onthe Parcel detail or on the big
map, you have a little thelittle location kind of teardrop
looking icon.
Yeah, you hit that and thatturns on the blue dot.
So now you can be driving aneighborhood and it's following
it's following you and showingyou where you're at.
I hope you guys are listening tothis and and then you can just
(52:25):
touch on the parcel and get inthe information changes to that
that parcel you're in front ofand I would venture to say your
information is a little moreaccurate than Zillow, or you
know.
Well, they're getting it from us, but it's just delayed, you
know.
They know it's, ours is.
And I will warn you, some ofthe different data vendors out
there will pull different thingsand interpret it wrong.
(52:46):
You know, first of all, theytake our fixtures and convert
that into baths at, which is notalways correct, right, because
we you know that how they'redoing it.
Speaker 1 (52:55):
I was really how they pulled that interesting.
Where could people find you andgive us your your last two
minutes here?
Speaker 2 (53:02):
Yeah, yeah, so so I'm always out bumping around.
You know work working in thecommunity, you know speaking
different groups, so so keep aneye out whether it's you know.
You know philanthropic clubs orreal estate professional groups
and, obviously, realtor titleEven, even law.
(53:22):
We do some CE, even for the barassociations.
With our in-house council, wework that together so you can
always catch me at speakingevents there.
And then we do public educationevery month and Right now we've
got the next one coming up July20.
So next Thursday in our SouthCounty Service Center, which is
(53:44):
on 2534 Street North.
It's our new facility.
We have a great training roomupstairs there and we do that
hybrid so you can come in online, you can register for that
session.
It will be a Noontime sessionNext Thursday and it's going.
This one's going to be on thenew website, so we're going to
(54:04):
dig into a bunch of the, thepower tools and bells and
whistles, and you know we dosome of the simple stuff first
and then we'll jump into somesome neat things that if you're
Any any profession within thereal estate industry, I would
say tune in To that one, becauseyou're going to learn a bunch
of powerful tips That'll makeyour daily life a lot better do
some 101 stuff, then get into alittle deeper, the 201 stuff,
(54:27):
and show them how to really makethat thing home.
Speaker 1 (54:29):
Well, I will tell you , we really appreciate you
coming in.
We are appreciative of you inyour office.
What you guys do in thecommunity, you've always just
just been championing the, thehomeowners.
You really have.
You've stood up to people onthat and we really appreciate it
.
So with that guys we're goingto wrap it up for this edition
of golf coast to space coast.
(54:51):
Thanks for tuning in and we'llcatch you all next time.
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