EP 42: Jody Strittmatter & mental coach Bobby Dughi on building mentally strong, successful athletes

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
The most famous get up right when they're at the
bottom.
You know screaming during amatch.
Do it, don't do it.
So if it's not technicalinstruction, it does absolutely
no good and mostly harm.
Is that fair to say?
I love having these real talks,to be honest with you, because

(00:41):
it puts things in perspective.
Put these little recordingglasses on, because these are
these, uh, behind the ones.
Every once in a while, I'll turnthem on.
Have you seen these, the metaones?
They make you smarter.
Is that what they are?
I wouldn't take them off.
I'd be sleeping with thosethings.
No, you can record.
It's a camera.
That's amazing.
Like high level camera, like 4K.
It's crazy, that's cool.
Yeah, so, like it's crazy,that's cool, yeah, so I could

(01:02):
just boom all of a sudden.
I could take a picture and justsnap it Like Iron man.
Yeah, it's crazy, it's great.
All right, we're ready.
Yeah, all right.
So I'm going to tell you like Ifeel, like I have Brad Pitt on
this podcast.
I'm super excited about thisbecause you know, you know,

(01:24):
listen, uh, I didn't grow up awrestler, but, uh, I'd be lying
to you if I if I told you that,that I'm not completely obsessed
with it.
It's probably 75 of my tvconsumption at this point.
That's right.
Like technique, or or whateverdocumentaries come out, I'll
watch it three or four times.
It's crazy.
It's crazy how, how it's gotteninto my bloodstream, so you

(01:47):
know.
So the thing is that I'mfriends with both of you guys,
right, and I'm going tointroduce you guys officially,
right, but I'm friends with bothof you guys and I've had
individual conversations withyou guys that I find super
interesting.
I've seen both of you strugglewith the.
I'm a dad, but I'm also aprofessional in what I do, right

(02:13):
, in your case, bobby, you're asports psychologist, right?
You were a sports psychologistfor Cornell, right?
You're also a lifelong wrestler, wrestling coach, the whole
thing.
Am I missing something?
Something, yeah, I went tocornell.

Speaker 2 (02:26):
I got my degree from ithaca college and then when I
uh was starting, when I wasstarting out, um, we built a
mindset training program forwrestling that was used by the
cornell team at the time.
Okay, um, so, and just toclarify since we're recording
here sports psychologist, thathas kind of legal ramifications.
So I'm what you call a mentalconditioning coach or a sports

(02:47):
psychology professional orsports psychology consultant.
My master's degree is in sportperformance psychology.
Okay, perfect, awesome, allright.

Speaker 1 (02:53):
And Jody.
Jody's very humble so he'sprobably going to push back on
this, but Jody is what mostpeople in the sport consider the
most successful youth coach inthe history of the sport.

Speaker 2 (03:08):
Yeah, I'll jump in and just say it.
I mean, I've been a youth coachbut growing up in the sport and
Jody's trip matter is he's iton the club coaching scene, so
it's definitely properly said.

Speaker 1 (03:18):
Right, right, absolutely so.
You know, Jody's, you know,coached kids, from little youth
kids to the Olympics.
I mean, you were, you were inthe Olympics just a couple of
weeks ago with Spencer Lee is akid that you coach from, from a
little little baby, almost Right, so, yeah, and Jody, the
interesting thing about Jody isthat, yes, jody has amazing

(03:41):
technique, yes, jody's anamazing coach, but what I
consider Jody more than it isalmost like a kid whisper, right
, you know, have you seen thatdog whisper situation?
Right, it's amazing to see Jodywith hundreds of kids in the
room and he never really raiseshis voice, right, like the kids

(04:02):
kind of lower their, their,their level so that they could
hear him.
When he talks real slow, ittalks real low and it's just,
they kids come back differentmentally from a camp, right,
yeah, so, so, so again, back towhy we're here.
Um, again, I've had friends withboth of you guys.
We've had, you know, numerousconversations about you, about

(04:23):
performance in the sport.
Now, to be clear, this is goingto be both of you guys are
wrestling guys.
But in reality, this is goingto translate what we're going to
talk about today.
I see it, my daughter playstennis, for example.
It translates to every sport,because a sport's a sport, all
right.
I mean, am I off on that?
Performance on a sport, whatworks for one works for every

(04:44):
other sport.
Performance is performance,right.
So, um, and the unique thing isthat again, I'm friends with you
guys.
Both of you guys have littlekids.
So I've seen you guys kind ofboth of you kind of struggle
with like all right, well, I'm asports psychologist but I'm a
dad.
We had that conversation Likeso what do I say?
I've seen Jody in tournaments.
You know, can't help it.
You stress out, you know he's,he's, he's, you know cool,

(05:05):
common collective Jody.
But when his kids are wrestlingit's a little bit different.
You know what I mean.
So it's it's uh, it's a uniquething.
So I kind of wanted to talk toyou guys about like that unique
and have both of you together, Ithink you know kind of feeding
off each other on that, I think.
Do you think I'll start withyou, bobby.
What do you think is the?
What's your biggest struggle asa sports psychologist?

(05:30):
When you're talking to littleBobby, right, and you're like
you know what's that one timethat you're like man, what the
hell, in what direction do I gohere?
Is there one?

Speaker 2 (05:40):
Yeah, there's a lot, right.
So I think that you know, whenI'm talking to my son whether
it's wrestling or some of theother sports he does, or my
daughter too, and you're, you'rethinking about those struggles
To me, I think it's, it's weknow the right thing to say,
right, and Jody, you probablyexperienced this as well, like I

(06:00):
know the right thing to say.
I've taught it to other people,I've taught it to other parents
, I've taught it to other kidshundreds of them, right.
But wait a minute, I know I'msaying the wrong thing because
my emotions have got the best ofme, because that's not what's
supposed to come out, and so Ithink that you know there could
have been a lot of differentways to go with that question.
But, at a simple response, forme, I think what I struggle with

(06:23):
the most is when I know myemotions have got the best of me
and I'm not necessarily sending, either with the words I'm
saying or my body language orwhatever it is, the message that
I know is the right one that Iwould coach somebody else to
send to their son or daughter,right?
And I think, like right, thereis probably what it is, and that
comes back to your comments ofperformance.
Is performance right?

(06:43):
That's me not putting my bestperformance out as dad because
you know, I know I should becalm, I know I should teach him
to detach from the result andworry about the foundational
things, and you know I knowwe'll talk about some of that
today.
But, like man he's wrestling.
I'm jacked up and I want to winand I'm being honest, right, and
there's a balance between kindof authenticity and the
struggles that you're properlybringing out that we have as a

(07:05):
dad versus the hey like let'sget back to the best part of how
we can, you know, teach eliteperformance.
Yeah, I think that's probablythe shortest way I could say
that's my biggest struggle.

Speaker 3 (07:14):
On ability, jody yeah , I agree with that 100.
Yeah, you nailed it.
Um, yeah, and I guess to add tothat for me, like for my kids,
is like yeah, and I guess to addto that for me, like for my
kids, is like you know, you seewhat they need to work on.
You, you have so much knowledge.
But if you try to tell them,they don't want to hear it.
But whenever they're ready forit and they say like Dad, can

(07:35):
you help me with this position?
And they gain so much in thatarea.
But I guess the best way to putit is like you know, when the
student is ready, the teacherwill appear kind of mentality.
And whenever you try to ram itdown the throat and they're not
ready, you know they just theygo the other way and then you
get into that frustration mode.

Speaker 1 (07:56):
Yeah, I was reading an article the other day also
that you know it was like aparenting article and and it
also said that you should alwayshave somebody that cause your
kids at some point are going tokind of push back on on on
whatever information you'regoing to give them, and you
should have, like a anotherparent, that that you trust, or
a friend or somebody.
Just relay the message for you.

(08:17):
Same message.
It'll just be a lot morereceptive over there, right?
So I'm wondering if you guyshave is that?
Is that an act Is?

Speaker 2 (08:23):
that accurate.
Oh, I think that's spot on.
I mean, I think Jody's commentand yours that a lot of people
know that the messenger is asimportant as the message.
But I think what you're bothpointing out too, and, jody,
what you're alluding to is thetiming is also as important as
the message and the messenger,and and having people that
aren't just us as dad or mom anddad or whoever, is great.

(08:46):
I mean, I think one of thethings that I try to think about
, not just for my kids but allthe you know clients I might
have, is, you know, stressingwho are the people in your life,
who are the mentors in yourlife?
Like somebody like Jody, right,but you know, you know, like
your son is a mentor to my son,right, right, there are things
that Elijah, you know.
Like Elijah can teach Bobby.

(09:06):
Well, I can say the same thing.
He's not going to hear it fromme, right, or he's not going to
want to do it, but he sees supercool, great model Elijah, and
he's like, well, I want to belike that guy, and so it's, it's
.
I think it's so important and ittakes some humility as dad,
because I, I am like a humanbeing, right, I have an ego.

(09:27):
I think that if my son would doeverything I would tell him to
do, this is where he could goright.
But that's a lot of parentsmake that mistake and a lot of
my clients.
I've had that conversation andJody probably seen that
countless years over and overagain, with wrestling rooms,
wrestling dads in particular,but this goes to all sports
where it's like.
For us as dads, as human beings,it does take some level of
humility to be like you knowwhat and like.

(09:48):
I'll just use that example withElijah right, I'll let your son
, who's in seventh grade, right,teach my something, my son,
something that probably in myheart of hearts, if I'm being
honest, I'd rather teach him,but it's better for my son to
let Elijah do it.
So it takes some, you know,accepting.
Well, someone else is going tobe better at this and if I
really want what's best for mychild, I need to let them do it

(10:14):
Like if Jody's their coach.
I need to let the coach coachand go be dad.

Speaker 1 (10:15):
That's hard though it's easy to say, hard to do,
yeah, and have you seen yourselfin that struggle, jody, kind of
in these dual tournaments orwhatever, where you kind of have
to stand back and be the dad?
What's the struggle there like?

Speaker 3 (10:25):
Yeah, and it's hard.
I guess I haven't done that toomuch yet.
You know my daughter's 10, myson's eight, so I am dad and
coach in one, for the most partstill to this day.
So, yeah, it's definitely beena struggle and, like you said,
in the heat of the moment youwant what's best for your kid,
but sometimes maybe um, with theemotions not done Right.

Speaker 1 (10:46):
Yeah, and what's um?
Listen, I, I've I've heard alot from you, um, and I kind of
want to hear from both of youjust a little bit of how you,
how you address it.
But it sounds really good onpaper, um, but it's it's.
It's difficult to execute thekind of remove yourself from the
result, right, give your fulleffort right in a tournament,

(11:10):
Give your full effort inpractice and completely remove
yourself from winning and losing, right, man, that sounds great
when you say it.
It just makes all the sense inthe world.
It removes the pressure, right.
But how do you get you, get youknow again.
So confirm, I guess, confirm,you know, I guess that that's
correct.
And if jody could kind of seeyou know how, how he makes a how

(11:32):
, how, how do we get a kid tounderstand that and to and to
and to make it register, youknow?

Speaker 2 (11:38):
yeah, that went first last time.
What does jody say?

Speaker 3 (11:41):
yeah, um, I think that, so in practice it's super
easy.
Like I would rather you know myson, are we talking just about
our kids, or are we talkingabout kids in general.
Yeah, I would much rather a kidlike, hey, he's a state champ
and I would much rather him gointo a practice and lose that
practice than win.
And that means that theychallenge themselves with better

(12:04):
partners, you know, whetherthey're older, bigger, whatever
it is.
And and our best example and wehave a lot, but our best
example of that, um, or kind of,who even taught me that as a
coach was Jason Nolte.
You know, it was the weekbefore super 32 and he went into
practice and he got scored onand scored on, and scored on and
scored on.
And I turned to his dad and Iwas like what is going on with

(12:26):
Jason today?
And he was so frustratedsitting in a corner watching.
And I walked up to Jason, youknow, and I'm like what's up
today?
You know, this is a big week.
He's like I just do a couplemore positions out before the
tournament.
I'm like let's turn it on,let's get going.
This is a big week.
And he and he went down thereand he, he, like tech, followed

(12:51):
his way through, you know, buthe's good at that Like just
feeling position.
It wasn't about winning andlosing at practice and just like
getting better.
And you know, he taught me thatas a coach and like cause, I
was always taught like.
You want to practice and you,if you can win 2000 to zero,
that's what you do at practice.

Speaker 1 (13:03):
Yeah, and before I forget this question, just to
add on to that.
So I saw I don't know if Italked to you about it, but I
think I did I sent you, I sentyou the video.
So there's this MMA fighter Iwant you to follow MMA Joe.
Do you follow it at all or not?
Not really.
All right, maybe the wrestlers,right?
So Holloway, right, this, thisholloway kid.

(13:26):
He's 30 years old now and he's alegend now, right so, but they
brought up this old video.
He's either 15 or 16 years oldand they're interviewing him
about winning and losing, right,and man, he, he didn't have
much parenting.
He admits there, his mom was,you know, heavily into drugs.
He didn't really much parenting.
He admits there, his mom washeavily into drugs.
He didn't really have anyparental figures, but the kid

(13:48):
was.
It seemed like he was just kindof born with the ability to
understand.
So he explains that.
He's like I just don't get it.
And when you see the article, Idon't know if we could put that
.
Guys, when we do the actualclip, we could put the article,
not the article, the clip.
But he's like I don'tunderstand why people quit, like
if you just give it your effort, your full effort, and you

(14:09):
don't quit.
At least you're happy withyourself and you're not a loser.
He says loser.
He says loser right, becausehe's with a Hawaiian accent.
But he's like, if you give ityour all, you're not a loser,
like I don't get it, like, andhe just didn't understand that.
So you saying that story, therethere is kids that are born
with that from, because it seemslike they're the adults were
learning from the kid, right,like that that's really the way

(14:32):
it should be and you're kind oflearning.
So there are kids that are kindof born with that emotional
intelligence.
Do you see that often?
Or?

Speaker 3 (14:40):
yeah, and again, I I just think everyone's different.
That that's my thing as a coachis just identifying at a
younger age, or as young as Ican, kind of um, I guess how the
how the kid reacts.
You know, spencer Lee was notthat, you know, if he gave up
one takedown of practice, he wasby himself.
He was so upset, like like hewould have the best practice of

(15:02):
his life, and then he gave up ascore, get like he tries
something and get caught on hisback and his dad would call me.
I'm like you know, jody, whathappened to Spencer tonight?
He looked incredible.
Like yeah, he got caught onetime, he got taken down, but he
looked incredible.
He's like he came home and hewas ripping and roaring through
it like his bedroom and he wasso upset and he was ripping and

(15:22):
roaring through it like hisbedroom and he was so upset.
So I think everyone's different, right?

Speaker 1 (15:26):
So there's no real right or wrong?

Speaker 3 (15:28):
Yeah, I don't know about that.
Yeah, I think everyone'sdifferent and just kind of
helping coach them along the wayand obviously I think his
coaches, even throughout us andhis college coaches, and even to
this day, have helped him alongthat I guess progressing.
And the same with Nolf.

(15:48):
You know, sometimes you had tomaybe dial him in the other way,
but I don't know if there's aright or wrong way.

Speaker 1 (15:53):
It might be somewhere in the middle.

Speaker 3 (15:55):
Yeah, I think every and again.
Maybe that's what made Spencerreally really good and, on the
other side, that's what madeJason really really good and
good at the positions that he is.

Speaker 1 (16:02):
So, yeah, the center yeah, and textbook wise, is
there a right?
What's the right way?
I mean, is textbook NOLF moreof the mentality, more like the
textbook way, or yeah?

Speaker 2 (16:13):
So no, not really.
I mean, Jody's answer really iskind of the textbook way.
The way I would kind of maybesay the same thing a different
way is there are foundationalprinciples that are right and
wrong.
Right way is there arefoundational principles that are
right and wrong.
Right, but what really goodcoaches do, what really do
mental conditioning coaches do,and ultimately what really good
athletes do is they make ittheir own right and they find a

(16:34):
way to take it work.
And you can think of like it'skind of a wrestling group here,
probably a wrestling audience insome sense.
So like you can think of arelatively basic move high
crotch, double legs and whateverand there's how many different
ways to set it up and how manydifferent ways to execute it and
finish it right.
And so that would be kind ofthe analogy I would draw from a

(16:54):
wrestling standpoint to this,from a mindset standpoint.
Like look, at the end of theday, the ability for a Spencer
Lee to go in this direction withhow he handles it and a Jason
Nolte to go in this directionwith how he handles this topic
is, I would guess I've never meteither of them, so I don't know
.
So correct me if I'm wrong here, jody, but I would guess their
foundational principles areprobably pretty similar Things

(17:16):
like character, effort, attitude.
I'll bet that stuff and pleasecorrect me if I'm wrong here,
jody, but I'll bet that stuff isthe same and then what really
really good coaches do which,jody, you are that is they allow
people to go take that and thenbe yourself.
Right, it's kind of an oldschool mentality we were talking

(17:37):
about, you know, old schoolcoach before we started
recording and like to be likethis is the way we do it, right.
I'm going to break you down andthis is the model, and maybe
when we were kids we had coacheslike that, right.
But what has happened today?
What has allowed performance tojump levels?
And we look at the elite levels, right, and you look at our
Olympic team, right.
You have guys like a SpencerLee that might have a certain

(17:59):
you know, more hardcore,committed mentality than you
could see.
Guys like a Kyle Dake thatclearly are, you know, have have
a different way of doing things, and he's pretty regarded as
that.
And so I think our ability ascoaches, as parents, as support
systems for elite athletes islike these are the things that
are the non-negotiables if youwant to be elite, right.

(18:19):
But then if you you get to acertain level where, once you've
taught those things, thingslike, how do you not be overcome
by the outcomes versus theprocess?
How do you do these otherthings right, your creativity,
et cetera you know, like a JasonNolfe your example, I think,
Jody how do you allow athletesto make those things their own?
That's what helps people becomereally elite.

(18:42):
Now, that's where I think thedifference is for every single
person, and that is the reallybig challenge for coaches and
parents, right?

Speaker 1 (18:51):
So if you were to Jody, if you were to kind of
create the best parent, ok forfor an athlete, what is it?
Is it the standoff?
And, you know, not really gettoo involved.
Do you find that the the betterathletes have more involved
dads?
What's too involved is is thereis there kind of like a right

(19:11):
answer for that?
Um, screaming in the corner,obviously not a good thing,
right.

Speaker 3 (19:16):
No doubt, yeah, and there's a again, a couple um,
like we just talked aboutnon-negotiables, like that you
can't do Right, but the coolthing again.
Uh, we just talked aboutnon-negotiables.
Like that you can't do right,but the cool thing again.
Uh, we just finished our 21styear.
We've had so many good kidscome up through and and a lot of
them, you know, they werereally good wrestlers, um,
before they came into the club,you know.
And then they come in, um, butyou see a lot of different ways

(19:37):
that the dads and the momshandle it.
So it's really really cool.
I think the one thing that thata lot of our dads have is they
are strict in a in a good way.
They're strict, they're theypush, but, um, I guess the one
way is that you describe it asyou dangle that carrot out in
front.
You know, I always say, ifthere's two dads and one makes
their kid get up and do 300pull-ups before school and like

(20:00):
that kid, every time it's like Ihate this, I hate this, I hate
this.
And then one dad is like hey,you want to do pull ups together
and like goes down there andlike, even if they're not doing
the pull ups with them, butthey're like having fun with
their son and encouraging themand like, man, you look really
strong today.
I think that you know one does300 pull ups, the other one does
300 pull ups.
The one that does it the wrongway Does he ever get successful?

(20:21):
He's going to struggle.
You know he hates it, where theother one, you know he develops
a love for working out ortrying to be great and he gets
really, really good.
So that's a great question.
We've had a lot of differentapproaches.
No-transcript young age.

(20:45):
You know I hear a lot also.
The other way is like, oh, myson, he didn't want to go to
practice today.
Well, you know, did he want togo to school today?
Did he want to brush his teeth?
Did he want to get up and go tochurch on Sunday morning with
your family?
Like just something we do as afamily.
It's it's hey, we're going togo to practice.
You know we're going to enjoyit.
We're going to have fun on theway.
We're going to work hard.
We're going to have fun on theway back.

(21:05):
We're going to stop whatever,get ice cream or whatever.
It is Like it's this is what wedo, like we're going to work
hard.
So I think that there's so manydifferent ways and approaches
and and um and how that's workedout short term and then, most

(21:29):
importantly for for our club andthe kids in my own kids like
long term yeah, and and whattextbook wise I mean is it?

Speaker 1 (21:37):
is it the more standoff?
Because what I've noticed okay,so you know again, what I bring
to this conversation is, like Inever wrestled.
I played sports, but not at ahigh level, you know.
So I'm figuring this thing out,you know.
But I think also I've alsonoticed a lot of, like,

(21:58):
successful wrestling kids andI'm sure it's in other sports
too, didn't have, you know, thedads that were in the sport.
And what I've kind ofregistered from that is that I
go into this not knowinganything, right, like I know
zero about this.
So I'm asking the questions.
I, you know I'm reaching outbecause I reached out to Jody.
I mean, I didn't run into him,I just reached out.
Hey, would you be able to cometo my, you know.
And then I'm picking your brainand you know, in your case, you

(22:20):
know, we connected through aweird way, right, but I'm always
picking your brain on stuff.
So we're always learning, right, like we're always.
I'm open to learn every singlething to become the best.
If I look at myself as awrestling dad and even with my
daughter, with the tennis, thefirst tournaments, I think, the

(22:41):
first, the second tournament, Iwent to her tennis was I got
thrown out.
I think the first, the secondtournament I went to her tennis
was I got thrown out.
So the you know, if I look atmyself back then I'm embarrassed
of myself.
I'm embarrassed of myself.
There was one story Elijah waslike five, and we had one of the
dads has like FU written on hisknuckles, gold teeth.

(23:02):
Amazing guy though Amazing guy,but he looks like, you know,
rougher on way rougher on the.
I'm probably rougher, but hehe's rougher on the edges.
And I'm screaming to my son.
I'm screaming, rip his head off.
In Spanish, I'm gonna rip hishead off.
And he's like hey, dude, youcan't say that I'm like.
And it's like I'm like, oh,okay, okay, I'm sorry, I'm

(23:26):
embarrassed of what I was when Ifirst started, but you start
learning and you start seeing.
You know what, what happens andeverything like that.
So, but textbook, who is theperfect dad, super involved, not
involved somewhere in themiddle?

Speaker 2 (23:36):
Yeah, I would think and, jody, you probably dealt
with this a lot and havingparents ask you.
You know questions as a as acoach for so many years, but one
of the things that isfrustrating to my clients.
What is frustrating to me as Itry to answer this question is
it's a undisputable fact thatevery kid is different and what

(23:57):
works for this kid is not goingto necessarily work for this kid
right.
Even more frustrating I havetwo kids, so what works for one
of my kids might not work forthe other, one of my own kids.
Same parents, same DNA samehome.
I've seen that happen too,completely different.
So, so you know.
So then, if we can accept that,right, assuming we agree that,

(24:17):
like, every kid is different, sothere isn't going to be this.
Here's your answer, right?
Here's your one, two, threeprocess follow step A, step B,
step C, and then your kid willbe successful, because that's
what we want, right?
And as the world evolves andgets, speeds up, speeds up,
social media, whatever it is,instant gratification, all these
things that people like, justgive me the answer.
Right, let me skip to the end.
Right?

(24:38):
The answer becomes well, youhave a process, you have a
journey, and it's going to bedifferent every time.
So, but I'm not giving you anon-answer, here's what I would
say, both of you kind of give mea non-answer.

Speaker 1 (24:46):
I know I'm going to ask you, I know, but like, okay,
give me the like the absolutelydon't do, because what I want
to get from this, if, if, how,what I want to't do, this Don't.
How do we better?
Thank you, how do we better thesport you know with this

(25:08):
interview?
So what are you saying?

Speaker 2 (25:09):
So here's here's and, by the way, that's one of the
big frustrations sometimes withlike a sports psychology
profession.
My mentor, greg Shelley, wasalways so great about
identifying the differencebetween kind of research and
applied sports psychology, and Ithink he is one of the best in
the world at the at the ladderthe applied.

(25:30):
That's why he's so helpful toathletes.
And so Cornell now.
Yes, wrestling Well, he's thesenior director of sports
leadership and mentalconditioning at Cornell
university athletics.
Okay so, but the wrestling teamis on that, but he and I think
he's an Iowa guy actually toJody's he did like him, but uh,
but uh, but um.
The reason I bring that up is isyour, your feed?

(25:51):
Your response is appropriate,right, it's like look, okay,
great, if I accept that.
Like, how does that help me?
What do I do?
And I think in your story isone of the most important
responses.
That's like look the commondenominator on coaches or
parents that are helping thatwrestling, dad or mom that's
watching this is like okay, whatdo I do?
Well, what you have to do ishave a willingness to learn.

(26:12):
You have to have a willingnessto be aware and change and say,
okay, I did something at thebeginning of my kid's career
that I recognized, wasn't better.
You want to constantly reachout, like myself.
I'm a self-example.
I wrestled, my dad was awrestler.
Okay, I coached wrestling for avery, very long time and then I
got a degree in sportperformance psychology.
So there is a possibility thatsomebody with that kind of back

(26:33):
of their baseball card is like Idon't need any help, right, I
got it.
I know what I'm doing.
I'm going to help my son besuccessful.
So that would be my answer toyou as first is like that's the
worst thing you can do.
Elite mindsets.
Whether answer to you is firstis like that's the worst thing
you can do.
Elite mindsets.
Whether it's as a parent or abusiness professional, an
athlete, whatever it is, one ofthe common denominators is
they're trying to evolve and getbetter every day.
So what I would say to thatwrestling dad is if you're doing

(26:55):
the same things in a year thatyou're doing now, you're
probably not doing what's bestfor your kid.

Speaker 1 (27:00):
So like go learn go Okay, but let talk about since.
Okay, so screaming during amatch, do it, don't do it.

Speaker 3 (27:10):
Well, yeah, I mean yeah, I would say definitely
don't do it.
I guess if you're trying to getyour son's attention, like
yelling, and then calmly youknow, but if it's just screaming
it, yeah, it's not helping forsure.

Speaker 1 (27:20):
So the, the, the, the , the, the most famous get up
Right when they're at bottom.
You know, no, no.
So if it's not technicalInstruction, it does absolutely
no good and mostly harm.
Is that fair to say?

Speaker 2 (27:36):
I think it depends.
That's always going to be kindof a qualifier, but, like, look
here's, here's what I say.
Screaming in general, it comesback to kind of the message or
the message, right, first of all, are you a coach?
Like, are you Jody coaching hisson?
And he's a coach?
Well, you probably have toscream a couple of times, right,
because he has to hear you,because he's wrestling and he's
a headgear on.
There's hundreds of peoplewatching.
So it's not that like screamingis bad, but it's more like,

(27:59):
right, this is one of my things.
They're like I, I, every sporthas their equivalents, like
baseball, I've always told thisstory.
Like the third base coach like,be a hitter, what do you think
the kid is trying to do?
Like yell something helpful,right, so it's, it's screaming.
You know, I don't know itdepends on the kid, but what are
you screaming and why are youscreaming it?
Right?
That would be the kinds ofthings I would say that parents

(28:21):
need to be evaluating, right,you might have a kid like this
isn't my son, he's only five, soI haven't had this really
experience yet, but, like, I'vehad kids I've coached that have
been like hey, coach, I don'twant you to yell at me during
the match.
I can't hear you.
It kind of just distracts meand like okay, so the lesson is
one open up that communicationwith your son or athlete can
tell you what they want, empowerthem to tell you what they want

(28:42):
and then listen.
But you might also have oneslike yo.
I need you to get after meduring a match because it
motivates me, okay.
So I think that it's really.

Speaker 3 (28:49):
You've seen that too, jody kind of both yeah I don't
want it some kids need it Ithink the the age level is um
very important for me as a coach.
Like so, my son is eight, youknow seven.
Last year we competed and stuff, so so, um, trying to help him
through a match sometimes, youknow, is maybe more important,
but I don't know.
The way I look at it is like ifI'm yelling technical things in

(29:11):
a match, I haven't done my prep, my job as a coach in practice.

Speaker 2 (29:16):
Okay, that's awesome.

Speaker 3 (29:17):
Good point you got to coach during practice out there
.
They have to learn you know andto think from themselves.
And if you're always yellinginstructions, typically you're a
second behind already anyway,so I'll yell you know things
like hey, keep believingyourself.
Like hey, you can do this, Iyou know, like that.

Speaker 1 (29:36):
So positive you're going to yell anything.
I guess the, the, the, themessage would be if you're not
yelling positive stuff, justkind of shut up a little bit
right, like just you're notyelling positive stuff, just
kind of shut up a little bitright, like just you're there to
support them, you're there toto to.
If they need a little bit of awind in their sails, you're.
You're the wind in their sails.
Maybe you're like hey, wake up.
You know you're a little, youknow something like that I think

(29:57):
positive is important.

Speaker 2 (29:58):
But you also touched on your questions like what are
the don'ts like?
One of the other big don'ts Isee is, like you know, don't,
like, don't make it about you,right?
I've seen a lot of clients andparents who are clearly living
their dreams, desires, trying torepeat, fix their failures,

(30:18):
whatever it is, through theirchild, and that is definitely
one of the don'ts that peopleneed to be self-aware on.
And you know, I was justthinking, I listened to both of
you and it's like look, thatkid's the wrestler, right.
So you're not helping them byputting whatever you're bringing
to the table on.
And like you run a club.
You know, we've all seenwrestling.

(30:40):
Dads are kind of notorious forthis, right, like, wrestling is
a tough sport.
There's one champ, right, 10weight classes if you're talking
to college, right.
So like, there's mostly peoplewho lost.
If you're in this sport, you'vebeen in this sport, right.
And it my father, right.
My father wrestled.
You bring up wrestling.
He wrestled a player, hewrestled a Cornell.
He will tell you about thisnational semifinals loss he had

(31:01):
in high school and how he stillcan't sleep and he's about you
know, and he's in his seventies,right.
So like this is the wrestlingdad culture, and that is
definitely one of the don'ts.
Realize, like you want to fostera love of the sport, kind of
like Jody's story a few minutesago about the early morning
pull-ups like you want them tohave fun.
So, you know, it gave you kindof more direct like what do we

(31:23):
do?
Type things.
You want to make sure that theyhave something sustainable that
you can build.
Hard work, because they'regoing to have to work really,
really hard.
They're going to be successfulat this and, by the way, that
goes for anything in life.
So you got to really kind ofhelp them enjoy it.
And if you're screaming at themright, who likes being screamed
at?
And I think that that's, youknow, definitely one of the

(31:43):
things that parents, dads inparticular, want to be aware of
is like, okay, this is what Iwish I did.
I wish I could go and I'llspeak for myself Like I wish I
could go back in time, workharder, be more committed, have
higher character during mymiddle school, high school years
and then see what I could havebeen Right.
If I bring that to either of mykids, I'm setting them up for
failure because I'm puttingmyself on it.

(32:04):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (32:04):
And the pushing the kid is interesting too, because
you know my, my dad, my dad wasan amazing father, right Like
I'm.
This is nowhere near acomplaint.
Still, my best friend coachedall my little league basketball
games.
He didn know shit aboutbasketball.
He, looking back now, he he hadno business coaching any of
those, any of those games.
He knew absolutely nothingabout.
You know about, about, aboutcoaching.

(32:26):
But he just wanted to be there,wanted to be my coach, the
whole situation.
But my dad never really pushedme at all.
It's awesome.
I pushed myself right, pushedmyself to be the best man.
I was obsessed with it, thewhole situation.
But he's watching now like I'mwhat I'm doing with my kids.
And he came to me the other man.
I was obsessed with it, thewhole situation.
But he's watching now like I'mwhat I'm doing with my kids.
And he came to me the other day.
He's like man, you know whatlike, and I wish I would have.
I wish I would have pushed youmore.

(32:46):
I wish I would have known whatI know now, what I'm seeing you
do now.
Um, I think it would have made.
It made a big difference inyour life and the whole
situation.
I'm like.
I'm like yeah, did I mean youdidn't know?
He's like no, I really didn'tLike he's talking to me like
just regular conversation, likeno, I had no idea, no idea that
this world of, like you know,expecting the best from your kid

(33:07):
, giving them all the tools tosucceed, and I just came from
Cuba I'm just worried aboutputting food on the table, you
know, it's like he had no idea,so no idea.
So that really kind ofregistered with me more like I
was like man, you know what it'skind of like.
You know it's almost myresponsibility as a father to to

(33:27):
push with every not push.
And here's where it getsinteresting.
Right, like pushing with itpositively, right, like don't
put too much pressure but giveall the tools.
So I guess really I kind ofanswered it to myself, so it's
not really pushing, it's really,hey, give all the tools.
So I guess really I kind ofanswered it to myself, so it's
not really pushing it's reallyhe'd give all the tools, give
positive reinforcement and model.

Speaker 2 (33:44):
I mean I would say I don't know your dad, but I would
challenge him a little bit inthat comment to say I'll bet
coming from Cuba being worriedabout putting food on the table
and yeah, you had some hard work, you had some high character.
that and that's what his parentsand his coaches we need to
think a lot about.
Like we're saying so much withso much more than just what
we're saying with our words.
So just because he might nothave done some of the things

(34:06):
you're doing for your kidsdoesn't mean he didn't lay out
for you.
This is a blueprint you canfollow.

Speaker 1 (34:12):
But it didn't really register at that age, right?
You know I was.
You know, again, kids are borndifferent.
I was always born with, with.
Really, as a kid, I alwayswanted to be rich and I always
wanted.
You know, it was all like Iwant to be successful.
It was just born inside of me,right?
So not everybody's like thatand some people need to be
pushed, and I'm assuming it'sthe same thing with athletics.
So here's another verycontroversial subject in the

(34:36):
sport, or in any sport, right,and you hear it all the time
from parents hey, it doesn'tmatter if you win 6U, 8u, 10u,
12u, whatever.
A college coach is not going tocare if you won Tulsa Nationals
, all situation.
Now here's the problem.
I read and Will Bassett is nota poet or an author, but he

(35:02):
wrote a hell of an article Doyou read that article that he
wrote on that?
Absolutely.

Speaker 3 (35:07):
Yeah, we talk about stuff all the time.

Speaker 1 (35:09):
Yeah, he, he, so I'll bring you up to date on the on
that article.
He's like, man, I don't, Idon't really believe that whole.
Well, it doesn't matter, oh,you read it right.
So it's like so I'll bring theaudience in on, uh, on it.
So this gentleman, um, arguablyone of the most successful dads,

(35:29):
you know, uh, you know, outthere, um, you know, uh,
definitely one of them.
Uh, you know, and he, hebasically mentions well, why,
why doesn't it matter if theywin in 6U or 8U or 10U, just
because a college coach?
So are you telling him hey, getbad grades in elementary, a

(35:50):
college recruit, you know, acollege admissions is not going
to care if you got a C in, youknow, in third grade or fourth
grade or whatever.
So why lower the standards ontowho doesn't really matter,
right?
So that kind of reprogrammed mybrain a little bit like, wait a
second, you know.
So I would love your guys' takeon that, you know, like where

(36:13):
is.
And again, and I've talked toyou enough about the sports
psychology part where you kindof want to take that pressure
off, right, but how much of thatpressure do you do you take off
?
Right, so it's, it's yeah.
So if you could kind ofelaborate on that.

Speaker 2 (36:28):
Yeah, I'll, I'll try to go quick and see what Jody
thinks about this, but and maybeadd some other things.
But look, at the end of the day, on this topic of like a six,
you know six U Tulsa, right Like.
Like you know, my five-year-oldwon a state title, right Like.
Is he going to get a divisionone scholarship out of that?

(36:48):
Unlikely, not, you know.
So it's the.
The balance that we're lookingfor is you want them to have
some success and you want themto have some fun.
It's fun to win success and youwant them to have some fun.
It's fun to win, and it's okayto say that out loud.
And there is so much of thissurrendering the result, and the
good part of that is releasingthe pressure.

(37:08):
I'm happy to talk more aboutthat.
But what we have to balance onis I think that that article
brings up a good point whenmaking the connection to grades
right.
We want them to learn the rightway to do things.

Speaker 1 (37:17):
I think it might be a habit right.
Creating strong habits now isreally what he said Winning
habits is what he said.

Speaker 2 (37:22):
Right, and that's what I think.
Look, it's not fair orrealistic to say to an athlete
create these winning habits fora decade as a child who just
wants dessert today, right,that's the way their brains work
, but the reward is out there ina decade in a Division I
scholarship, which most of theseparents are really thinking

(37:43):
about.
When it comes down to like,what's the number one goal for
the parents?
Yes, they want their kids to besuccessful and happy, but, like
, ultimately, they're trying toget their kid to the next level
and that's not wrong.
But so I think what it becomesdown to is a balance of like
look, you need to have enoughsuccess that it's fun, which can
be a six, you eight, you, tulsawin, but you also need to
experience enough failure, right, jody's point?

(38:04):
Like in practice, if you'recoming in and you're not losing
in practice.
But you also need to learn.
One of those winning habits isyou need to challenge yourself,
which means you need to seek outfailure, because that's how you
push your limits.
So I think there's a realbalance going on around.
As parents, you want them to behaving some fun and some
success.
It's part of long-termmotivation.
It's part of creating genuine,sustainable enjoyment.

(38:25):
And then you also want to putthings in perspective.
Right, you're not the king ofthe world because you won six
year Tulsa, and that's that'swhat I think we're looking for.
I can go forever on that, but,jody, what do you think?

Speaker 3 (38:36):
Yeah, I think.
Um, I guess as a wrestlingcoach, that's my job to help
them find success.
So if I'm going to say it's notimportant, then what am I doing
as a coach, right?

Speaker 2 (38:48):
Why am I here, right yeah?

Speaker 3 (38:49):
I have to help them kind of find success, and
winning is a part of that.
However, you go to the 6U oreven 8U, and if it's all about
winning, that's where theproblem comes in.
So I always want our kids inthe ball game.
Hey, if you're placing, ifyou're in that quarterfinal
match, if you're, you know, inthat ball game you're, you're

(39:10):
doing what?
Well, again, we talked aboutthere's only one champ.
So if it's only, hey, you gotsecond and you're horrible at
six, six, you, you know that'snot gonna go very far.
Um, if it's all about winning,again and you don't let your kid
eat, for you know, two weeksstraight, and now, every single
practice is about a number on ascale.

(39:31):
It's not did you get better atfinishing?
It's not.
Did you get better at gettingoff the bottom?
It's a number on the scale,that's all the practice is about
.
What did you weigh at?
You know what did you weigh inthe morning?
It's not about getting amorning workout, you know,
before school, it's all aboutwhat did you weigh this morning?
That's where the trouble comesin.
So, um, whenever it's only aboutfirst place, you know, and and

(39:51):
even placing at some of thosetournaments like that's where
the trouble comes in, like sosome kids they cut so much
weight that by the time they'rein high school they don't want
to cut weight anymore.
They hate that process, sport,they hate that part of it.
And then it's, it's importantmaybe to do it more um, you know
, smarter, but more.
And by that time you know youngkids have eating disorders.

(40:13):
Uh, you know, with wrestling.
So it's again.
It's like everything we'vetalked about this morning.
So it's, it's so cool to talkabout this stuff because every
single kid, you know, isdifferent.
They all go about it differentways.
But I'll tell you what 99% ofthe kids you know they um, hate
cutting weight, um, and if youdo it too much early, you know

(40:35):
it, it hurts them later.

Speaker 1 (40:37):
Yeah, yeah, that's, that was one of the questions
too.
So what's like the?
I guess the psychological part,because what I've also noticed,
what I've seen, is that theseheavy cutters, right that,
depend on cutting to win.
If there's ever a circumstancewhere they can't cut, it's

(40:58):
almost like they've they.
Psychologically.
They put themselves like well,I'm not cutting.
Where they can't cut, it'salmost like they've they.
Psychologically.
They put themselves like well,I'm not cutting, I can't win.
And I've seen some parents sayshe's like well, he can't cut
this much weight, so we're notgoing to compete.
Right, right, I'm like so waita second, so if he's not cutting
10, 15 pounds, you won't eventake him to the tournament.
Right, like what does that putin the in the kid's head?

(41:19):
Do you know what I mean?

Speaker 2 (41:20):
Yeah.
So there's one question inthere.
I want to come back to ask Jodyin a bit, but I wrote it down,
I won't forget it.
But to answer your question,look, from the mindset
standpoint.
There's a couple of things thereI worry about.
First is on the weight cuttingtopic, just like, look, this is
part of the fabric of our sport.
I think our sport's evolvingand dealing with it, you know,
as best it can.
But, like, at the end of theday, for younger kids, if, if

(41:43):
our goal is to, you know, teachthem some principles and have
them have long-termsustainability, which requires
some fun and enjoyment, I w Iwould worry, you know, when I've
been a youth coach, like Iworry about, okay, we're cutting
weight, like there is, but butthen there's a time where, like,
it is part of the sport as youget older and so the balance
becomes again every kid'sdifferent.
But like, when do you introduceit?
How much do you introduce it?

(42:03):
So that's one of my concerns.
But the other is is, you knowwhat you're bringing up, which
gets to a couple of differentthings.
One is you know, shielding ourkids from failure is one of to
cutting.
Or, hey, we want to qualify forthe state tournament.
This qualifier is easier andthis qualifier like I've had
that conversation with parents,whether as a coach or a you know

(42:24):
, mental conditioning coach, andI'm like what are you teaching
your kid for life?
But like, we're going to gotake the easier track here, so
that that kind of ties into that.
But at the end of the day, ifyour success is tied to
something other than yourability to perform work, right,
that's going to, that's going tohave a direct you know you keep
asking what's the textbookthat's going to have a direct

(42:45):
negative impact on yourconfidence.
Because now it's not about myperformance, it's not about the
things I can control, right,it's about how much do I weigh
or how much does my opponentweigh.

Speaker 3 (42:53):
Yeah, I think it goes the other way too, right.
Right, like you have a kidwho's really really struggling
and maybe they don't love thesport anymore and um, taking
them a couple weeks in a rowwhere they can find success and
they can win a big trophy andlike, yeah, so it's cool, like
navigating through everyone'scareer.
Some kids get it really reallygood early.
Some kids like it reallystruggles, and we've had that.

(43:13):
You know, we've had a kid whonever placed at the pennsylvania
youth state tournament.
Um, as a youth, never placedand then by his senior year he
was a pennsylvania youth statetournament.
Um, as a youth, never placed,and then by his senior year he
was a pennsylvania mostoutstanding wrestler.
Wow, got a scholarship to iowa.
So it's crazy how that works.
Like max mirror, we shouldshout him out, right, yeah they
get it.
They get it um yeah yeah, andthey start working, working,

(43:35):
working and it just doesn'tclick, you know.
And then they start becomingall in and, you know, have so
much success later.

Speaker 1 (43:41):
So everyone's different kind of yeah, and it
leads me to my my other question, right, so I saw I think it was
a 60 minutes a piece on, um, itwas an African-American, uh,
hockey player, right?
Um, the they're interviewingthe dad and he said one thing
that I met that must've been 10years ago, that I saw that and
it always stuck with me.
Right, he's like, you know, Ipushed my son and I pushed my

(44:02):
son and I pushed my son and itwas my dream until and I always
told him it was my dream, untilone day it had to be his dream.
Right, there has to be a daywhere our hey man, you know, and
I and I talked to my son allthe time like, hey man, it's
coming close to the point whereyou know, and I and I talked to
my son all the time like, heyman, it's coming close to the
point where you know, it's notabout daddy pushing you, it's

(44:23):
about you, you know.
And luckily we are making thattransition, you know, and
everything I have.
But that was one thing thatreally scared me, I'm like,
cause I see a lot of kids dropoff during puberty and stuff,
and he's not there yet as far asthe puberty is concerned.
But and that's where you know,and I wonder if there's like a
whole thing about that.
But you know, yeah, there's apoint where we have to.

(44:44):
If we're doing it right andtell me if I'm crazy right, if
we're doing it right, we got tocome kind of completely step
away and and is, is there an agefor that?
That?
You see, or is everybodydifferent, or or or and I'm sure
everybody is different yeah,like a textbook rule on that?

Speaker 2 (44:58):
There's not, it is.
But you're spot on.
And it's very similar to Jody'scomment a few minutes ago about
how you know if you've doneyour job.
When they're performing right,you're just watching, right,
like Coach K has a great group.
Duke basketball coach has agreat quote about this If we've
done our job, come tournamenttime, we're spectators, right,

(45:18):
kind of.
My answer to you is like parents, look, yes, everybody's
different.
That's going to be the answerto a lot of these things and
that can be sometimesfrustrating, but the reality is,
if you've done your job at somepoint in their journey, right,
like, like, no, no athletesgoing to go be elite if their
mom or dad is the main source oftheir motivation, eventually
they have to take ownership oftheir craft, right, um, when and
where?
Usually after puberty.

(45:39):
Usually, no, no, I bet.
I mean I would guess I've nevermet spencer lee, but he looks
to me like the kind of guy whoprobably showed up owning it,
wanting it, you know, but atsome point his parents
introduced him to sports.
I mean that.
What do you think, jody?

Speaker 3 (45:52):
yeah, I mean I, I would, I guess, generally say I
see it around middle school justbecause, um, that's where kids,
you know, they start takinginterest in girls and they start
coming, you know, like drugs,alcohol, more introduced in
their life at school.
So I, that's where I see a big,big change, like if kids like
they could be really, really,really good, you know, young,

(46:14):
and then you know they get tomiddle school and it like they
take different paths, like andthat's what I say about spencer,
all the time, like he hasstayed on path, like he has said
from his from the youngest agethat I met him like I want to be
an olympian, you know, I wantto be a gold medalist, all right
, and I know he didn't achievethat, um, but he has never got
off path with a girl with aparty, with drugs, with alcohol,

(46:35):
with an injury.
Every he got boom, like he gothurt, back on, back on, you know
, and you see that so many times.
And and Mike Nolfe told me thisis Jason's father One time he
was like Jody, I knew it wastime to step away.
You know, when he was in middleschool he's like I, just I sat
on the side and I would justmicromanage everything he did,
you know, it didn't matter howmuch good he did, you know, and

(46:58):
he's like I realized that oneday, you know, and he's like I
knew I had to step away and it'shis career, and like from then
I just dropped him off.
I'd go get something to eat, Iwouldn't come in practice, you
know.
And then you know on the wayhome, how'd you do?
And this is another awesomepiece of advice I got, um, you
know, two minutes of practice.
Know you get in a car, twominutes, how to go, or hey, you

(47:19):
need to work on this or that andthen nothing else.
So no, no kid wants to go topractice, the whole practice.
You know I'm putting theirheart and soul in it.
And then the whole way home get, you know, you know micromanage
of everything that they couldhave done better.
You know they don't want to goto practice and your
relationship, kind of um,changes with them.

Speaker 2 (47:37):
So so yeah yeah, can I ask you a question on that?
Yeah, so kind of back to thattopic and the little bit of like
having success later and thefun of winning a little bit.
Jody, you've actually sharedwith me something that I think
Jody told you, but I want to askyou a question.
So in the world of sports,psychology, right, extrinsic

(47:58):
rewards or certain things right,it's like a medal.
So it's like a medal right, oryou know, the cake or the
chocolate or the ice cream orwhatever it is right.
And when you're studyingmotivation, you learn like an
extrinsic reward is notsomething that's going to be
like long-term sustainable.
Now, the younger your kids goand this is something that I
didn't learn in grad school,something the younger your kids
go, and this is something that Ididn't learn in grad school.

(48:19):
It was something I learned as aparent, as a dad right, like
you better use those extrinsicrewards because you're going to
get your kids to do stuff Right.
So I'm curious what you wouldhave to say kind of on this
topic and some that we've justbeen talking about, like I would
have said as coming out of gradschool, like straight letter of
the law, sports, psych stuff IfI was advising myself as a dad

(48:41):
right, like no, make it aboutthings that are 100% within your
control and control thecontrollables and these
principles, and like that's theway to build a champion, right?
But then the very firstwrestling tournament my son ever
went to, which was last season,he got beaten around Robin.
He got beaten around Robin,there's four kids in it and he
was like freaking out.
And he was like I'm notwrestling anymore, I'm never

(49:01):
wrestling.
I was like hey, bud, you knowyou, you win this next one, you
get a medal.
And he was like what, like Iget a what?
He didn't care what color itwas, you know it was four years
old at the time and he just waslike that's awesome.
And that was when we had thatconversation.
So, jody, like I'm just curioushow you've seen that, because
there's clearly a balance thatwe need to find as coaches and
parents where it's like look he,um and the, the way it came up

(49:24):
that, you know jody was at myhouse and you know I have
elijah's, like you know, uh,tulsa, eagles and everything,
and he was, you know, showinghis son and everything like that

(49:46):
.

Speaker 1 (49:46):
I'm, like, you know, kind of step jody.
I said I'm jody, what do youthink about that man?
Like what, what?
Um, you know this whole thingand and you're pushing because
when elijah first started in inin the sport, um, he hated
wrestling the first six months.
He cried the entire six months,like to a point where I'm like,
dude, this is not for him, likeyou know.
But I also realized, well, atleast more than I realized, the

(50:09):
sport kind of sucks, like it's ahard sport, not everybody's
gonna like it at the beginning.
So that reward was after everypractice was a little car, like
a little hot wheels car.
So I would buy a bunch of themand then if you don't cry at
practice or if you do this oryou do that, you know I'll get
you a little car.
I mean, my son had an iPhone atsix years old because I was

(50:33):
like, well, if you beat this kidat practice, right, just wanted
to get him.
Because there was a kid who wasreally beating his ass at
practice Like one of thosepractice bullies and I'm like if
you beat this kid I'll get youa phone.
He's like, really dude, Ididn't think ever.
Once you said it you hadabsolutely impossible, it was
gonna happen.
Right, and it it did happen andI had to get him the phone.

(50:53):
So it was, it was a.
It was a horrible thing to havea six-year-old with a phone,
but I got him through throughthat hump.
So, yeah, the the jody.
I guess if you could elaborateon the trophy hunting and and
how much of that is isrecommended and not and, and you
know, because it serves asmotor, I'll let you answer
because go ahead.

Speaker 3 (51:12):
Yeah, great question and I get.
I.
I think the the answer is to methere is no real answer.
Like again, like some kids,like, for example, my son he
went to your house and now likeit's in his mind that he wants
an eagle in the worst way.
So is that a bad thing?
No, I think that's an awesomething.
You know now, if it's me sayinglike over and over and over

(51:36):
that I want an eagle for him.
That's a good point yeah, so, um, but I know I, I do think that
it's, it's really really cooland I think that that's.
You know.
Sometimes, like kids will playfootball all season long and
football is a really, really funsport.
Um, but I know that we get alot of kids that come to
wrestling you know from footballand they're like wait, you can,

(51:56):
you know, because football youplay all season long, you know,
and you win maybe get a trophyyeah and at the end you may have
a sports, you know banquet orwhatever, and they give you a
little trophy or a medal, likethey're like, wait, wrestling.
You can get a trophy or a medalevery single weekend.
You can keep trying, like, andthey love that.
So I think that's really reallycool, um, to kind of like keep

(52:17):
pushing them and again, um, keepdangling that carrot in front
of them.
You know, so, um, and, and yeah, it's the same way.
If it's um, hey, if you winthis tournament, I'll buy you
this.
That's where it gets to betricky, because now it becomes
all about winning and losing ata young age.
And and that's where yousometimes, like a dad, will get
so mad at their kid who justwrestled incredible, you know

(52:40):
and they don't.
maybe they don't know even howgood the kid is, you know, but
they lost and it's.
You got to work harder, you gotto do this, you got to do that,
and then they win and theydon't do anything.
They score one point, you know,and they kind of stall and take
injury time and all the badthings, but they won and
everyone's showering with love,grandma's over there, you won,
you know.
So when it's only about winningand losing again we talked

(53:03):
about this earlier it gets to betricky there, um but and how
about?

Speaker 1 (53:09):
how about?
Um?
So, yeah, there's always acarrot and there's always has to
be motivation to move forwardand what?
What I've, what I've learnedfrom both of you guys, in
reality has been um, you know,hey, it really doesn't matter
what, every tournament is reallya preparation for the next
tournament, right?
So if you go to vac, and itmight be, you know super 32 and

(53:30):
then, or super 32, whatever, soevery, don't look at the results
on that one, look at aspreparation for the next one,
right?
So?
And that's really why I likeduels, right?
So, whoever's not you know awrestling, a parent, duels is
where you know these, theseteams.
You get picked for an Ohio team, where you get picked for a
Pennsylvania team, and and you,you meet somewhere and then this

(53:52):
team, it's really an all-starteam versus all-star team, right
, and you compete against otherteams.
But the reason why I like itand that's kind of where my next
question is is it takes awaythe first place, second place,
third place thing.
It's more like, hey, who do Ihave in my bracket that I'm
going to wrestle?
So it transfers the I'm goingto win at first place, second,

(54:13):
third place to I'm going towrestle this kid and I want to
beat this kid, going to beatthis kid.
So you know, if you could talka little bit about that, like
you know.
So you're not now you'retransferring the energy towards,
you know, not trophy hunting,but let's go after the best kids
, right, like hey man, you knowand writing, you know, and I
know we've done that in my house, you know, I've done it with my
daughter, I've done it with,with, with my son.
There's people's, there'speople's names on our wall and

(54:36):
we've scratched out a bunch ofthem, right, and there's a bunch
of them that have not beenscratched out.
So that, I think, is again fromthe novice, from just following
my gut, that's the healthiestway, right, like, let's go after
the best kids, like you know.
And look, I've had it where wego after that best kid and he

(54:57):
gets his ass kicked.
Then the next time it's liketwo points away.
Then the next time he beats himor he loses by one to a kid
that he's not even off thecharts.
How does that work, jody?
Is that something you do?
Also, are we chasing lions orchasing kids?

Speaker 3 (55:14):
Yeah, that's a great question.
Again, my kids are young enoughthat maybe we haven't gotten
into that.
It's really, really young andpure to their age.
Like it's just about gettingbetter.
And they put in an amazingsummer and again, this is going
to sound so cheesy, but likethey have so many resources here
and just in the state, you know, and, and the coaches that are

(55:36):
the kids that I've coached they,they're surrounded with so many
good people that I just trulywant them to love it and if they
do, that means they're going tocome to practice every day with
a smile on their face andthey're going to get so much
better, Like, so I don't know,the the doors is tricky for me,
you know, and I'll be honest, Ican't stand those.
I hate them.
Um, and this is too because Ithink that kids, hey, you lose

(55:58):
the first match, and again, nowthis is more older, okay, so
this is older.
You start to get.
You lose the first match, it'sokay.
Well, guess what?
It's not.
Okay.
You didn't warm up the rightway, you didn't prepare, you
didn't eat right after weigh-insand now you're in a concy
bracket, so you can't be a worldteam member, You're?
You didn't do things right.
You know where duels is like.
Oh don't worry, you get backthere, get there next.

(56:20):
You know so at a young age.
I think it's really valuable.
And then I put duels togetherfor years and years and years
and it's, they're hard right.
So I have a bad taste in mymouth of you.
Know.
We're putting duels and thensomeone gets sick the first, or
the next.

Speaker 1 (56:34):
Oh, as an organizer, I wouldn't wish that on my worst
enemy.
I mean, it's an absolutenightmare.

Speaker 3 (56:38):
They're hard, hard, hard.
Yeah, they are fun to do,there's a lot of value in them.
But as you get older they'retricky, you know, because
sometimes you can not do welland it's just like, oh, next
time and I've seen that a lotfrom some of our kids Like
they'll go to duels and they'llgo seven and two, they'll lose
the first two and then they'llget on a roll.

(56:59):
Well, sorry, you're in theconcierge.
You got to be ready from thefirst one in an individual
tournament.

Speaker 1 (57:04):
so I think going both ways is important, but um
they're saying, it takes off themost important pressure that
you need for the individualbasically learning.

Speaker 3 (57:13):
Yeah, that learning is important.
So that pressure again at ayoung age is good, you know to
take that pressure off.

Speaker 1 (57:18):
It's like everything else.
It's a balance, right yeah?

Speaker 3 (57:20):
absolutely.
It's a balance.
I think that's cool, like we'vetalked for an hour and it's so
cool.
I can talk for 12 more hoursand listen.
You know and learn too, but Ithink it's just such a feel and

(57:44):
just treating kids good, lovingthem.

Speaker 2 (57:44):
you know if they win, if they lose love them and you
know how do we get better youknow, next step how do we get
better?

Speaker 3 (57:47):
do we got to get stronger?
Do we got to get more flexible?
Do we got to get better?
At bottom, like what's the nextthing?
So yeah, and that's that'sreally, though, to me, like, can
you grind?

Speaker 1 (57:51):
can you grind day after day, falling in love with
how hard this sport is, andthat's one thing I've seen.
I've seen both my kids make mydaughter you know I don't want
to.
I mean she, they're practicingin the sun like I.
I I was talking yesterday on ifif people really knew what
these kids put into it, thestuff that they sacrifice, the

(58:12):
events, the birthday parties,the, the regular normal life,
right, that they miss, right,look, I always say, don't feel
too bad for them because they'retraveling the country and
they're with their buddies andlike let's not get carried away
either.
So, and and and in my kids, youknow, uh, uh, example, I mean
he's with all his friends andwe're, and we really go out of

(58:33):
our way, um, to make sure thatyou know.
And and my buddy, bachman,which you know, same thing as
Bassett, I consider him one ofthe most successful like
wrestling dads, right, I meanboth.
They're both of his kids.
The Bachman brothers are at inAmman, jordan, right now
competing at worlds.
Yeah, right, you know, and he's, he's always big on and he's
probably going to hate that I'mbringing him up.

(58:54):
He's, he's like he.
He's like he's the behind thescenes guy.
He doesn't like to be talkedabout.
But he's, you know, he's workhard, play hard man, and we
always as a group and you know,and, and you know our group is a
lot of Florida, a lot ofPennsylvania guys we always get
together all around the countryand stuff, and it's like man, we
got to make sure the kids arehaving fun.
You know, and I think thatreally early, and the reason why

(59:19):
you know Miami wrestling clubeven exists is because I
understood that.
I understood that I need to bevery what, since I don't know
wrestling?
I don't know anything.
One thing I do know is how toget people together and and and
recruit and that type of stuff.
And I needed to make sure Irecruited the best kids to be
around my best not bestwrestlers, best kids, right,

(59:39):
yeah, be around good people, bearound a healthy environment.
And another reason why the clubexists is I wanted to have the
ability to get rid of it.
There's a bad apple, and that'sanother thing.
But what I could add to that,feeding off on Bachman he's
always saying it work hard, playhard is that I go out of my way

(59:59):
to make sure that when we go toa tournament, right, we leave
some time for fun, right, andJody, we've, we've had some of
that together.
We've been, you know, on theboat and we've been, you know,
hanging out and stuff like that.
So that's a big, big, big dealfor us.
And even that we just did acamp right now, and it was.
We did all the work in themorning and the rest of the day

(01:00:21):
the kids were on the beach, theywere fishing.
There were a whole situation,right.
So who you surround yourself byin any sport, I think is extreme
.
It's extremely important, right.
If there's one bad kid thatdoesn't want to be there, right,
that's another thing.
So there's, you know, fiveteammates, 10 teammates,
teammates, and one of themdoesn't want to be there, and
it's always you know thenegative and this, and that you

(01:00:42):
know that's, that's, that's abad thing.
I don't even have to ask youthat I mean that's, that's a,
that's, that's a bad thing.
And and just making sure thatyou find the fun in it, don't
make it a job, you know, don'tmake it.
Yes, you have to work becauselife is is work and life is, and
and you know, like you said alittle while ago, you know
winning, or you said, winning isfun, right?
And people ask me all the timeoh, does your kids like the

(01:01:04):
sport?
I'm like, yeah, but you kind oflike anything you win in, right
, I mean it could be pencilfighting.
You know what I mean?
A lot of the young people don'tknow what pencil fighting is,
but pencil fighting was a bigthing in our day, right?
Did they have pencil fightingin Pennsylvania back in the days
, Like where you, where you, yousnapped the pencil and you
break you?
Didn't have that up there.
We didn't have that in Jersey ohreally, you got a pencil, miami

(01:01:25):
, you snap the pencil and thepencil snaps in half and you
know you win.
But but yeah, if you'rewhatever you're good at you're,
you're going to be, you know.
So, um, so okay, so I I kind oftouched up on what I considered
the, on both of my kids, themost difficult stage period,

(01:01:47):
right the beginning, right thatvery, very beginning.
If we're talking to somebodyright now that has and I get
calls all the time because it'smy number on the instagram and
it's all, so I get people all.
Hey, my kid is they're callingright now.
Yeah, my kid is, you know,three years old, four years old,
right, and he and he wants to,you know, start wrestling or

(01:02:09):
whatever, right.
So I can tell you my experienceboth of my kids I don't know, I
don't know you guys being somuch around the sport that it
might have been a littledifferent, different, but
neither one of my kids wanted toplay their sport at the
beginning and they all playeddifferent sports soccer, this,
and that.
So, but you know, I go back to afunny interview.
So I saw and I would jokearound, I would joke around with

(01:02:31):
my kids about this.
Like there was a JohnnyHendricks remember Johnny
Hendricks back in the days.
So they interviewed his dad andhis dad is like a real, you
know, you know country accent.
He's like, yeah, I told johnny,you know they're asking him
like hey, you know, how'd you,how'd you get him into the sport
he go.
I told johnny, real early inlife he had two choices he's
either gonna wrestle or he'sgonna wrestle, right, so those,

(01:02:52):
so you know, and I would jokearound, I would joke around
about that.
I like you got two choices.
You got tennis, you got tennis,you know.
But, that being said, my wifeplayed tennis her whole life.
So my daughter really had that,you know, tennis or tennis.
There was really two choicesfor her, right, in my case, we
started wrestling because of thejujitsu.
But the whole point is thisNeither one of them really liked

(01:03:13):
the sport at the beginning,right?
So would I be giving unhealthyadvice, right?
Not being a sports psychologist, not being a legendary coach?
You know saying, you know kindof force them until they like it
.
You know, like, like is thatbecause it kind of worked for
both of my kids.
Now they're both madly in lovewith the sport.

(01:03:35):
It's who they are, it's whatthey love, it's what they do,
you know.
But yeah, they both cried.
I mean, elijah, worse, my soncried six months straight.
I mean it got to the pointwhere I called my dad.
I'm like, dude, I can't do thisanymore.
Like I can't do this anymore.
He would fucking ask me in the.
He would ask me in the morninghey, what are we doing today?
And I'll be.

(01:03:56):
We got wrestling practice and hewould start crying from the
morning and then, and then Iwould pick him up from school
and he would cry right the wholeway to practice.
And I'm like and then I call mydad and I go, I can't do this
anymore.
Like I can't, like I can't, Ican't take it.
And there was one day that Ihugged him at practice and I
felt his little heart justbeating out of his chest and I'm
like, oh my God, what am Itorturing?
My kid and my dad's like?

(01:04:17):
I get it, but you're too farinto it now.
Right, like you, you quit.
Now you're teaching him to quit, right.
And luckily, that kid for theiPhone happened like two weeks
after and everything turnedaround after that.
You know that iPhone got methrough everything.
Thank you, steve Jobs.
Yeah, steve Jobs, there you.

(01:04:37):
So the question is I'm on my.
Is that bad advice saying, heyguys, you know, like you know?
Back to the hey, they brushtheir teeth, they do this, they
do that, you know, um is, isthat healthy?
Or what do we do to that man?

Speaker 2 (01:04:51):
I would say it's not bad advice, it's not good advice
that I would say, right likeyes and no, yeah, I mean a lot
of these things come down towhat I have said to all parents
who hire me, where it's, likeevery kid's different, so I
don't know, until I talk to yourkid, anything right Like so,
other than some basicfoundational principles.
So, look for your kids, thatworked right.
But also, look, what I wouldsay is, if your kid's crying all

(01:05:15):
the time and they're unhappy,look, you have a choice as a
parent, ultimately crying allthe time and they're unhappy,
look, you have a choice as aparent, ultimately like that's a
, that's a God-given choice oflike, am I going to do this, am
I going to do that Like, as longas you're not doing this
harming your child, then thenokay, fine.
But but here's what I'm saying.
What probably you were alsodoing at the same time that you
may not remember were somethings that were having a very
positive influence, cause it'sunlikely that, whether it was

(01:05:37):
that extrinsic reward of theiPhone probably not that, it's
probably the time with dad, it'sthe there's probably other
experiences you were having thatwere fostering some positive
feelings for Elijah at the time,right that you probably were
like.
We always remember the worstpart, right?
Wrestlers remember their losses, right.
So we remember our kid crying,right?
So look at the end of the day,if your kid hates, should you

(01:05:59):
make them do?
It depends on the kid.

Speaker 1 (01:06:01):
Well, I saw it as self-defense.
I'm like, look, you're gonna bea man, you gotta solve, you
gotta.
And that's how this whole thingstarted.
I didn't wrestle, so I was like, hey, this is self-defense, you
got to be a man.
I was thinking you know, 300warrior, it is what it is,
you're gonna fight, you know.
That that's what my mindset was, you know.
So that's what got me kind ofthrough it.
And then my dad got me throughthe final stage of it.

Speaker 2 (01:06:19):
Yeah, but like, had I known you, then I would have
said like, well, why is hecrying?

Speaker 1 (01:06:22):
right, because he's crying every second of it.

Speaker 2 (01:06:24):
Yeah, but what does he hate about it?
Right, he's kicked everythingBecause he's the youngest one,
like Bobby goes through that,right?
So it's like look the wrestlingin the context that we're
talking about it, right, becausewe're talking about parents
trying to get their kids intowrestling and then what it's a
vessel for teaching them lifeskills, right, like, how many
are going to be?
Spencer, lee, jason, all someof these names we came up,

(01:06:44):
almost none, right?
And if you go into it with thatmentality, that that's why
we're doing it If that was whatyou were doing, then I would
have told you stop, like, findsomething else.

Speaker 1 (01:06:54):
But if you were doing it because and you would be
giving me good advice If Iwould've talked to you.
Luckily I didn't know you backthen, right, if I would've
talked to you you would've givenme really good advice.
You'd be like dude, what areyou doing?
Relax, take it easy, come backin a year, right, but I would
have asked you why you weredoing it Right, and if it was,
you still would've told menothing.

Speaker 2 (01:07:16):
I want my kids to learn what commitment looks like
.
I want my kids to learn thatwe're not going to get handed
anything in life.
Everybody wants the corneroffice.
Not everybody wants to work 10years in a cubicle to get the
corner office right.
Right, if that's what we'reteaching and those are the
conversations that are goingcrying like look, my kids are my
daughter's in gymnastics, whichI think is a sport very similar

(01:07:38):
to wrestling.
Right, very different.
They're different, but they'resimilar in that they're
individual very hard, physicallychallenging, and you are not
going to be good if you don't gothrough some physical pain,
build some strength and look.
I think going through that at ayoung age is good.
So if my kids were to come tome and maybe this is helpful to
parents and Joey, I'm fascinatedto hear what you have to say

(01:07:59):
about what I'm about to say butif my kids at their young ages
right, jenny comes to me, she'seight and says "'I don't want to
do gymnastics anymore'" andshe's good, she's really good,
she's really strong.
And Bobby comes and says "'Idon't want to wrestle.
After that happened, I wouldwant to know why.

(01:08:21):
Is it because you don't like itor is it because you are trying
to get out of hard work andthat those are two very
different topics to deal withyour young shot but in wrestling
it's like I see these kids comefrom football all the time,
right and they're like you knowthey?

Speaker 1 (01:08:36):
they come into this practice and they're like what
the hell is this?
I mean it's really really hardit is, they can't.
And these are top footballplayers.
They can't do a push-up.
They can't do these these, theycan't get through our warm-up.
You know what I mean?
Why does kids usually don'tlike it?
And because it's a tough.
This is hard, damn sport, man.
Yeah, and very little glory.

(01:08:58):
And that leads me to my nextquestion.
Right, let's talk about alittle bit of a glory, right?
Mill NIL Jody, before we gothere.

Speaker 2 (01:09:09):
Jody, can you react to that?
Like if a kid, a young kid,right your kid's age, my kid's
age kind of to, to, to to yourGod, come out, elijah, right
early on crying.
If somebody asked you that,what would you have said on,
like when you're trying to stop?

Speaker 3 (01:09:23):
Yeah, that's interesting, Cause six months is
a long time.
That's, that's brutal.
No, no, no, no.
But when kids come, you knowit's like you said, they
struggle they're breathing hard.
When kids come, you know it'slike you said.
They can't do push-ups, theystruggle, they're breathing hard
, like you know, the tears arecoming.

(01:09:43):
I'm hey, just come back, thebest thing you can do for
yourself, come back.

Speaker 1 (01:09:47):
The next practice, don't hang the kid off like I
did, making sure he comes backwith little uh hot wheels don't
try to get out, come back.

Speaker 3 (01:09:53):
It'll get easier, you know, or you'll be.
It won't get easier.
You'll get.
Get easier, you know, or you'llbe.
It won't get easier.
You'll get better at this.
You know so, um and all overlongevity, and I see that even
with like short term camps, youknow um day one they struggle
and they, they are not who theyshould be or could be, Um, but
by day five or 14 or 30, youknow, the progress that you make

(01:10:14):
is crazy Um, so that the bestthing that you can do for
yourself is just keep comingback.

Speaker 1 (01:10:19):
But yes, some of those bugs in there.
Jody, what's going?

Speaker 3 (01:10:22):
on.
I know I don't get in there.
There's one just one.

Speaker 2 (01:10:25):
Beekeepers, let me alone, costume next night.
That's what happens to theyoung guns bugs, they're coming
right, they're persistent at theend of this conversation he's
gonna do it right now all right,so I got.

Speaker 1 (01:10:38):
I have two more questions, right, um, okay, so
let's talk about nil.
Um, I'm curious, you knowthere's not really a
psychological answer to this,right, but I'm just might, maybe
, but, um, okay.
So one of the cool things isthat you know I deal with.
I have other parents that arelike oh, they're you know and my
daughter is in one of thosesports that you can make some

(01:10:58):
serious money, you know.
But, but, um, I love.
What I love about wrestling isthat it is just there is no
final professional outlet.
It is just about being the best.
You can be, working hard,falling in love with the hard
work, getting into a really goodschool and starting business.

(01:11:20):
Cause you know, at the end ofthe day, what I'm trying to
build with both of them is justbusinessmen and business women,
right, so that is, you know,sometimes I see the professional
outlet as a bit of adistraction and a bit of a a
very what is it?
Less than 1% chance, you know.

Speaker 2 (01:11:37):
So yeah, it's like a point something right.

Speaker 1 (01:11:41):
So they're.
You know they're falling inlove with that goal and you know
things could happen.
And you know, if you focus onbusiness, in my opinion you're
always going to be successful init right.
But now I'm hearing, you know,crazy dollar amounts definitely
thrown to football andbasketball and everything.
But I'm also hearing it fromother sports.

(01:12:03):
You know kind of you knowtrickling, trickling in to to
from other people trickling intowrestling.
So what are your thoughts on it, jody?
Is it good for the sport, badfor the sport?
Do you feel kind of like I did,like oh man, it's kind of I
don't know.

Speaker 3 (01:12:21):
It's kind of making it a professional outlet.
It's I don't know.
I'm actually torn between, Idon't know if it's a negative or
positive.
Yeah, I I'm very torn, and Iguess not torn is where I'm very
, um, intrigued to see how thisis going to work out, because do
I think it's amazing for youngathletes to start making money?
Yeah, I do, you know, and, um,I think that there's really
really great value in that.
But it's going to beinteresting, like whenever you
have a an athlete, you know, andI, and this happens, you know,

(01:12:44):
in all areas of life, but it'sgoing to be interesting in
wrestling how this happens.
Like you have an athlete, let'ssay he's making five hundred
thousand dollars and theassistant coach makes seventy
five thousand dollars, like,yeah, that's, that's your coach,
that's your mentor, like it'sgoing to be interesting to see
how that all works out well, ithappens in the nfl, I mean.

Speaker 2 (01:13:00):
That's why this is a very sports side question,
because it gets the cultureright.
And and, and that's wherepeople you know in in my
profession are being hired bycoaches and and athletic
directors, because, to yourpoint, jody, that's a perfect
example.
And then think about teammateto teammate.
Right, I was the top paid guylast year, but then then this
guy just left, you know, pennstate or whatever it came over

(01:13:22):
here.
He's the top paid guy now.
Well, what does that mean formy?
And?
So there's group dynamics,there's team culture, there's
also.
Then you have to get to likeidentity and principles of a
team, right, um, and look, is itgood for the sport?
Bad for the sport?
I don't think I'm importantenough for the sport to even
have a vocal opinion on that, soI'll stay out of that part,
right, but like, as far as likeis it?

(01:13:43):
It's very important, and itwill continue to trickle down,
um, to you know, as guys, maybetheir high school teammates and
like, well, I'd like to go tothis school, right, but 10 years
ago I would have picked thisschool and go with my buddy, but
now I'm not going to go becausethis school is going to pay me.
And look, these arelife-altering decisions.
So it comes down to then, notjust team identity and

(01:14:04):
principles, but all the way backto the beginning of this
conversation, like what are weteaching our kids right?
Character, commitment, what Ithink it again comes down to how
you treat people.

(01:14:25):
You know, how you presentyourself and whether you're
talking about nil or how youproperly detach from the
emotional stress of winning andlosing.
It's all going to come back todo you know who you are and does
the decisions you make whetherwhether it's the way you wrestle
, the way you deal with NILpresent properly who you are,
and it might be.

Speaker 1 (01:14:42):
Yeah, but I mean it also.
It also makes it fair too,because you know, and again I
know I'm biased to this andeverything like that, but I know
that, you know, compared toother sports and I have I have,
you know, friends that have kidsin other sports I'm going to
use baseball and I'm going touse football it is nowhere near.
Those sports are nowhere nearas difficult as wrestling,

(01:15:03):
nowhere near as difficult.
I mean I again.

Speaker 2 (01:15:05):
And I'm you mean like wrestlers should get more?
Yeah, Well, I'm just happy.
All three of us are a favorite.

Speaker 1 (01:15:10):
I'm just happy, I'm just happy that they're getting
something, you know, becauseit'd be.
You know, it's just, you know,again, life's not fair in the
whole situation.
But yeah, it's, it's, uh, it's,it's going to be, it is, it is
going to be interesting, but Iam glad that there's some money
trickling down and I'm hearingsome pretty good numbers, like
really good numbers, so that's,that's great, all right.

(01:15:31):
So I guess, my last question,unless you guys have other
things, um, you and I havetalked about this also.
Um, you know faith, religion inthe sport.
Um, I've I don't know, maybebecause I don't watch that many
other sports, but I've noticedit way more prevalent, way more.
You know it's, it's it.

(01:15:52):
When you look at the finals,right, um, at the ncaa finals,
it's everything is, you know,jesus and God and the whole
situation.
And you and I have talked aboutthe psychological part of that.
And and, jody, I guess I'll askyou, I mean, is there, is there
a correlation to more faith?
You know, based athletes andsuccess and and and and how do

(01:16:13):
you, how do, how do is is, doesthat even?
Is that something, that, thatthat you work with, or is that
something that you influence?
Or what's your thought on that?

Speaker 3 (01:16:22):
That's a great question and I think wrestling
is important because it's justyou out there.
You know, and other sports youpass the ball and you can always
blame someone, but in wrestling, and especially at the big time
, like there is a lot ofpressure, you can try to say
there's not and how do youhandle it?
You know and all that stuff'ssuper important how you do
handle, but it is there and it'smore and more and more um the

(01:16:44):
higher level you get and nocameras being shoved in your
face.
So I think that thatself-belief in yourself and then
realizing that there's morethan just you, um and and
different athletes handle thatvery, very different, but you do
see it a ton right now and Ithink there's a huge benefit um,
you know for um your faith andeverybody's different again, um,

(01:17:07):
where you grow up and you knowUnited States versus different
countries, but your belief um iscrazy important when you're out
there in the biggest matches ofyour life.

Speaker 1 (01:17:19):
Sorry, so I have.
If you want to finish that withthat, I thought of one more,
not a question, but a comment.
I want to want to know yourguys take on it, but I know you
have an answer.
I'm not.
I've heard your answer, yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:17:28):
Yeah, and look I've.
This is a topic that I spend alot of time on, you know, from
the standpoint of guidingsomebody's mindset, because I am
not a spiritual leader, right,Not supposed to be, not
qualified to be and shouldn't bein that role, and so it's very.
This is such a fascinatingquestion and topic to me because

(01:17:49):
I could have two let's callthem clients, let's say they're
both wrestlers, and let's sayone is, you know, deeply
entrenched in their faith.
Faith, and it's part of whothey are and it helps them.
And then one of the exact sametalent level is not religious.
So for me, in my role, right asa mental conditioning coach,
the job is to help them be assuccessful as possible.

(01:18:10):
Right, To give them the skillsto get them to be the most elite
version of what they can be.
So the practical application ofthat right throughout my career
is well, for this person who isvery faith-based, that's a part
of it right, and for thisperson who isn't, it's not and
it's not my job to convince themit should be or shouldn't be
right.
So that's kind of a conflict,because you can see your example

(01:18:34):
right, you see, and I'm inwrestling a lot, so you watch
the division one finals, right,you watch the, the interviews
that guys like David Carr andAaron Brooks give, and they're
very open and authentic abouttheir faith and it clearly is a
part of how it helps with thequestion.
Well, it's clearly everythingWell, right.
But the question to me again,just in my silo of performance

(01:18:57):
right, Not in all of life,because, again, I'm not a
spiritual leader, Well, okay,well, how and why is that
helping?
What part of it and I think itcomes back, Jody, to your answer
is like well, everybody dealswith pressure differently and
ultimately, the athletes thatchoose have made a choice at
some point in their life to havea spiritual component to their

(01:19:19):
performance.
It's because they've made aconscious choice to have it be a
part of their identity, theirvery authentic answer to who I
am.
Because this other topic ofwinning and losing that's kind
of been sprinkled throughoutthis conversation, right, Well,
winning is fun, right, but wedon't want to make it too much
about winning and losing andthat's a whole puzzle piece to

(01:19:39):
put together.
Part of it is how you do thatproperly, validating that we
want to win and there's nothingwrong with that, right, that's
why we compete, but making itnot the end.
All be all of it is verychallenging.
If you haven't answered thequestion who am I, what is my
identity?
And I think in that for somepeople, if that's part of their

(01:20:00):
answer, then what I would say toyou is it is paramount to
realizing your best performance,but it doesn't mean you have to
do that.
To realize your bestperformance would be my answer.
You just have to go through theprocess of finding another way
to answer the question who am I?
Because who am I is going to bethe same in seven minutes when
this wrestling match is over.

Speaker 3 (01:20:19):
Right and I do it like I was, like you know, with
all the pressure and stuff, itit's just you out there and
whenever you have a deep faith,like then, it's not just you.

Speaker 1 (01:20:31):
You know you always it almost takes the pressure off
, right, it almost takes.
It takes all the pressure off,really right, because it's all
up to god, right, it's all Ithink whatever god wants, right.

Speaker 2 (01:20:40):
I think what jody say is you're not alone, right.
When someone would feel alone,you don't feel alone, but that
doesn't mean.

Speaker 1 (01:20:46):
Well, it gets confusing, because if the other
guy's religious too, then wellthen you're both on it, right?
But it's not about the otherguy.

Speaker 2 (01:20:54):
right, we want to make it about ourselves, right,
so right.
So I think the point is, though, that I would offer to somebody
again because it is not my roleto be a spiritual leader in
this conversation Like I wouldsay to somebody who came to me
and said, look, I'm notreligious and, if you know, this
guy is out there and he doesn'tfeel alone.
I can see the peace that hefeels in a high pressure

(01:21:15):
situation.
The peace that he feels in ahigh pressure situation, well,
how do I, how do I get that?
Well, the answer is who are youso that you're not alone?
Maybe it's family, maybe it'sit's something.
There are other ways to answerthat question, but you have to
go through the process that youknow.
A, a faith-based track, allowsyou to go through, to have in
high pressure situations and, bythe way, that's forget about

(01:21:36):
wrestling for a second right.
You're going to go through life.
You're going to go.
You're going to get firedsomeday.
You're going to start abusiness someday.
You're going to have a hardtime making bills someday.
You're going to fight with yourwife someday and struggle with
it Like you don't want to bealone in those moments.
Of course not but, but.
But you know, if you can alwayscome back to this guiding
principle, that's when you're,that's where that source of

(01:21:57):
confidence and peace, and notfeeling alone, comes from.
And there's there's differentways.

Speaker 1 (01:22:03):
So the question, the answer your answer you just gave
right now kind of came becauseyou know, being religious or not
is is.
Is has a lot to do withupbringing, right?
So it's, I was not raisedreligious.
In most cases even though myname is Jesus, which is pretty
funny that I'm I'm not really areligious guy because I wasn't
brought up religious right.
So then, in turn, my kids arenot, you know, born religious.

(01:22:24):
They're not raised religiousright.
Can I make an effort to it?
Yeah, but it kind of seems tome again, it kind of seems fake
for me to to do that.
So we were kind of talkingabout, you know, listen, even
though my parents did a lookingback, now they did something
pretty cool.
They're like well, yourgrandfather's pretty religious,
go with him.
Problem is, I didn't reallylike my grandfather too much, so
that didn't help, you know, buthe'd go to church with him.

(01:22:44):
But, that being said, youranswer is more like all right,
well, if that religion is notreally an option or it's not
something that's natural to youor anything like that, how do
you kind of duplicate, you know,I guess, that that or?

Speaker 2 (01:22:57):
how do you which in its most simple form to me comes
down to you have to have anidentity that is as secure and
comforting to you?
As someone who is deeplyfaith-based and again, it's not
my job to have any judgmentaround which is better or worse
I think that I mean you'veprobably coached kids, jody,
that were deeply faith-based andsome, I would imagine, that are

(01:23:20):
not, that you know had to findthat source of comfort and peace
from somewhere else.
Right, absolutely, a hundredpercent.

Speaker 1 (01:23:26):
Yeah, yeah, all right .
So one last one.
We've been at it for a whilealready, so this is more like a
theory of mine.
I want you to see if you guysthink I'm crazy or if I'm right.
So I think that there has beena huge improvement in in the
united states at the juniorlevel and at the olympic level.
Just, we've been in the lastwhat 20 years we've become.
We're just way better than wewere before.

(01:23:47):
Correct that, fair to say, as acountry, yeah, yeah.
So I thought I had a thought andand I think it has a lot to do
with, uh, track wrestling and uh, floor wrestling, right, the
fact that, um, right, you couldsee a video, right of so.
So, for example, my son, let'ssay he, he, he does, you know,

(01:24:08):
three moves really really well,okay, um, and he has a big
competition.
The competition is going to belooking at his videos and
they're going to see that he hasthese three moves and they're
going to have the counter tothose three moves, right, so you
are forced to not be athree-trick pony and you're kind
of forced to evolve, right, andif you do that and you multiply

(01:24:32):
that by every kid in the unitedstates, by every tournament, by
every year, for the amount ofyears that this been around.
Doesn't that kind of lift upthe level of the entire country,
and does that have something todo with how much better we've
gotten?
What do you, what do you guysthink of that?

Speaker 3 (01:24:49):
Jody's got to go first on that.
No, yeah, and I think you'reright.
Yeah, a hundred percent.
But if it's just to like lookat technique and break down film
, the cool thing about that isthat it's not limited flow.
Wrestling is not limited to theunited states.
You know there's kids from, youknow, china watching our guys
wrestle.
There's kids from iran watching, you know, so it's interesting

(01:25:09):
I wonder if they do.

Speaker 1 (01:25:10):
You know that for a fact that they do 100.

Speaker 3 (01:25:12):
They do, yeah, and they've attested that.
They've had more success aroundthe world because of things
like that.
To me, I think it's a couple ofthings.
Obviously I don't want to sayclubs is like the main thing,
but I think like when I wasgrowing up, there was no clubs.
You know it was your elementarycoach was coaching you and he

(01:25:34):
may have wrestled in high schooland stuff, but you know so I
think, that there's so manyamazing clubs out there.
If you look at the clubs andthe leaders of the clubs,
there's NCAA champions andOlympians and you know you name
it running all these youth clubs, and so five and six year olds
are getting coached by NCAAchampions.

Speaker 1 (01:25:50):
So I think clubs have done a great job.

Speaker 3 (01:25:56):
Is there some harm there?
Maybe, you know sometimes, yeah, there is.
You know, sometimes it takesaway from school programs and
stuff.
So there's a fine balance there.
And I don't want to say clubs isthe best thing that's ever
happened.
I'm not saying that, but Ithink that you know success
clubs and then the biggest one,I think, is the RTCs.
You know that now it's legal.
Like our kids, our best kids,are able to go to Pitt.

(01:26:18):
They're able to go to Pennstate.
They're able to go to WestVirginia.
Mileage wise.
They're allowed to go to Ohiostate and work out for free with
those college athletes andcoaches, um, and so there's
designated times when you can dothat.
You have to be in a certainmileage radius.
But I think RTCs is a huge, hugereason, um, that our kids are
getting really, really good at ayoung age.

(01:26:38):
And then you know there's moremoney and whenever I was growing
up, you know even in theHawkeye Wrestling Club it wasn't
like guaranteed you weregetting paid that month.
You know now that you knowafter you graduate you're making
a decent amount of money tokeep training in wrestling.
So I think that that's reallycool.
I think there's more financialbacking, I think like clubs and

(01:26:59):
RTCs, along with, like you said,flow wrestling and media
outlets.
When I was growing up, youcouldn't watch the Big Ten
channel and watch two dual meetson a Friday night, and now you
can sit down with your familyand watch two dual meets and
record them and go back andwatch and break down.
So I think there's a lot ofvalue in in kind of like the
media, like you said, but thenalso like the actual coaches who

(01:27:23):
are coaching our young kids,you know, and the exposure
they're getting, yeah, and thevideos that they go watch and
everything.

Speaker 2 (01:27:26):
So yeah, look, I would just add to that.
I agree that the I agree witheverything both of you said and
from the standpoint of, like,not just looking at how it's
impacted wrestling, but from amindset perspective, right, like
the access to information isgreat.
And this I get people upset atme sometimes in my world because
I always say, like, look sports, like people like nobody's ever

(01:27:47):
heard of us, right, somebodywants to hear about good
coaching.
I'll be like we'll go go learnabout jody.
Right, go learn about nicksaban.
You know, like I'm not gonnagive you the name of a sports
psychologist.
I did talk to that high schoolhere.
I'm one of the parents.
I was like, oh, what resourceswould you suggest for you know
our kids to read?
And look, there are books youcan read and there are certain
sports psych type people thatyou can go follow.
But at the end of the day, theway that and this is funny for

(01:28:09):
me to say, cause I'm not onsocial media at all, cause I
don't athletes like the guys,jody you've coached, like the
guys that are wrestling atCornell or Penn State, the way
they can put out information forsomeone like me commenting a
while back on, like mentors andhow you help have sustainable
enjoyment.
Like, go connect to your heroesbecause you can go learn from
them.

(01:28:29):
So, like when I get athletesand their clients and their
middle school age, I don't havethem go read a book written by a
sports psych person, right, andI'm like, well, who are you,
who are the athletes you like?
And if it's a wrestler, I'msure they're going to say names
like Spencer Lee, right, kyleDake, jordan Burrows, okay, good
, well then go learn what thatperson did, cause you can go
find that information and flowinterviews and other podcasts

(01:28:50):
and other their own social mediachannels.
Like, go become an expert inwhat made them successful and
see what pieces work for you.
And then, by the way, like, aswrestling, we have kind of a
wrestling hardcore mentality inour sport.
Like, go learn from Steph Curry, go learn from Tom Brady, like
what made the greatest people?

Speaker 1 (01:29:07):
Yeah, yeah, athletes are athletes.

Speaker 2 (01:29:08):
So the fact that and now that all manifests itself in
somebody who we mentionedearlier, like Bo Bassett, who's
become such a popular athlete asa sophomore in high school
right, jody right- Junior juststarted his junior year, yeah
just finished sophomore year,just started about to be a
junior right Like he's createdsuch a platform.
But a lot of his messaging thatI very much enjoy as a

(01:29:29):
professional in the mindsetfield is very mindset related,
like that didn't happen 10 yearsago and I think that it's yes,
it's, it's all the things Jodysaid.
Right, he's getting access tocertain RTCs and and and through
flow wrestling, but he's alsoprobably learning from athletes
like a Spencer Lee that camebefore him and what made him
great and okay, now I cantranslate that to others and I

(01:29:52):
think this generation of athletethat we have I'm getting
younger and younger clients whoare understanding, like, if I
want to be elite, it, it I can'tjust be my body, it has to be
my mind too.
I think that's new, but theability to learn it in a cool
way.
I guess boring to learn fromsomebody like me like go follow
Bo Bastard on Instagram.
You're going to learn verysimilar stuff.
I'm just going to maybe helpyou be accountable.

Speaker 1 (01:30:14):
Yeah, that being said , you and I, you and I, you and
I met kind of organically.
I don't know if I would havekind of reached out and and, and
, uh, you know, and, and and youknow, focused that much energy
on the sports psychology,thinking oh, they're kind of
young now and the wholesituation.
But, um, I will tell you that Iam, I don't, it's not, it

(01:30:40):
doesn't feel medical, it feelslike the beginning of the intro.

Speaker 2 (01:30:43):
There's a difference between, like mental health
psychology, yeah, sports.

Speaker 1 (01:30:46):
Yeah, yeah, it's conversational and you're just,
you know you're, you're havingconversations and you're and,
and just kind of guiding youknow a thought.
So, all right, guys, um man,thank you so much.
Love you guys Again.
I'm I'm lucky to have you guysin in in my life and the fact
that I could, you know, call youguys, and and and pick your
brain is awesome.
So I wanted to bring that me,being the amazing, not selfish

(01:31:09):
human that I am, I want to.
I wanted to bring that toeverybody.
So, um, so, uh, how do peopleget in contact with you for,
yeah?

Speaker 2 (01:31:17):
they can find me.
I just mentioned I'm on socialmedia, so bobbydoogiecom.
The last name is spelled kindof weird D-U-G-H-I, right, so
yeah, yeah, and I can't speakhigher.

Speaker 1 (01:31:30):
Again, it's very conversational.
Give it a shot.
Every athlete has kind of stuffthat they're kind of stuck on.
Um, it could be minor, veryminor, and it could be a huge
thing.
Um, it's, it's been, it's beengreat, it's been great for us in
our house.
So and uh, jody, we've beengoing to you for what?
Four years now or somethinglike that.
So, uh, you come to Miami.

(01:31:51):
We love when you come to Miami.
So, try to come.
You know a lot more.
Um, young guns camps, right, um, just young guns wrestling club
, right, jody?
That's pretty much it.

Speaker 3 (01:32:00):
For our camps.
It's young guns wrestlingcampscom.
Yep.

Speaker 1 (01:32:04):
Okay.
So again, guys, thank you verymuch.
I hope you know, I hope, uh,parents out there appreciate it.
Uh, if there's any questionsyou guys have whoever's
listening to this I didn't thinkof let me know and I'll answer
it on Instagram.
So, thank you very much, guys.
I really really, really reallydo appreciate it.

Speaker 3 (01:32:19):
Thanks for having me All right, thank you, hey, my
last question when are we doingthis again?
That was, that was an absoluteblast.
I learned so much just in thatlittle bit.
I really want to go.

Speaker 1 (01:32:31):
I'm going to.
I'm going to definitely hatemyself for a bunch of questions
that I didn't ask.
So I'll start.
I'll start and people are goingto tell me oh, why didn't you
ask this and that?
So I'll definitely want to do.
You know, I should be the lastguy that takes the
responsibility to better thesport, but I think this sport
has done so much, you know, andsports, you know, has done so

(01:32:53):
much for my kids and for me.
I wouldn't be the successfulbusinessman I am if it wasn't
for sports.
So I think people that don'tplay sports don't really
understand how much it has to dowith life.
So, yeah, if we could continueto kind of like come up with
stuff and challenges and helpingpeople kind of, you know and
again, I'm in love withwrestling, you know, I might
even give myself cauliflowerhere, but I'm perfect, so I

(01:33:15):
could fit in.
So I could fit in with you guysa little bit more, Jody, you
know what I mean.
But, um, but yeah, I love youguys and hopefully we could do
this again.
Thank you very much.

Speaker 3 (01:33:24):
Awesome, All right guys.
Thanks, jody, love you, bro,got it, we'll see you guys Take
care of those bugs, man.

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