August 19, 2025 • 28 mins
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Ed Mathews (00:33):
Greetings and salutations, Real Estate
Undergrounders.
It is Ed Mathews with the RealEstate Underground.
Thank you again for making us apart of your day.
I just found out we havebreached the top 10 in global
multifamily podcasts, and thatis not because of me, that's
because of you.
So thank you so much forlistening, thank you for sharing
(00:53):
our show and, again, if you'renew to the show or if this is
your first episode, welcome.
And with that we're going tointroduce our esteemed guest,
Jason Melillo.
Jason, thank you so much forjoining us.
Jason, you're the CEO of KBKG,thank you.
And so for those folks whohaven't discovered you,
hopefully that means they don'thave tax problems, but if you
(01:13):
could just give us a littlerundown on who you are and what
you do for a living, sure.
Jason Melillo (01:17):
First of all, congratulations on making it to
the top 10.
Pretty cool feat, yeah, and I'mhonored to be here today.
Ed Mathews (01:22):
Turns out, it's more than my mom listening, which is
great.
Jason Melillo (01:26):
Sure, I can tell you a little bit about us.
We're not a tax preparer.
We don't prepare people's taxreturns for them.
We work with investors realestate investors and their CPAs
to provide certain tax benefitsthat are typically not done by
the CPAs.
Ed Mathews (01:42):
Essentially, we're a strategist on certain tax
matters for real excellent, andso when I hear tax strategy, the
first thing that pops into mymind is depreciation and bonus
depreciation, but I know we'retalking about a lot more than
that.
Jason Melillo (01:55):
Yeah, I think talking about bonus depreciation
and depreciation is verytopical.
Last month the one bigbeautiful bill was passed
bringing 100% bonus depreciationback, which is fantastic value.
It supercharges the benefits ofwhat we do for taxpayers and
investors.
So I think that's a big sigh ofrelief for a lot of folks in
(02:16):
the real estate industry thathave been monitoring that very
carefully to help bring thatback.
Folks like the Real EstateRoundtable, the American
Institute of Certified PublicAccountants, that worked hand in
hand to influence that and makesure that we're glad to have it
part of our arsenal again andit's really going to make a huge
difference for the taxpayers.
Ed Mathews (02:35):
Indeed, regardless of where you fall on the
political spectrum.
I'm a huge fan of that part ofthe bill in particular, but
opinions vary on everything elseand we're not going there.
Jason Melillo (02:43):
I can tell you, as somebody who's worked with
people on the far left and thefar right, the one thing that
they all have in common, thecommon ground, is they hate
paying taxes.
So that's the good news there.
That's the one piece of commonground I've noticed about people
with different political ideals.
Ed Mathews (02:59):
And let's talk about for those folks that aren't
really attuned to what bonusdepreciation is.
Jason Melillo (03:05):
Let's define it for the audience Sure Under the
tax law, people who buy propertyor whether it's real property
or personal property are allowedto take a systematic charge
against their income to reducethat income for tax purposes.
That systematic charge iscalled depreciation.
And what bonus depreciationdoes, instead of using a life of
(03:30):
five years or 15 years, or 27and a half years or 39 years,
depending on the classificationthat we're talking about for a
portion of that property thatqualifies as a shorter life.
So if it falls in the 20 yearsor less category, we can apply
bonus to it.
(03:50):
100% bonus means that we candeduct 100% of it in year one.
So if we buy a property realproperty, let's say a building
and a portion of that buildingis allocated to shorter lives,
whether it's 5, 7, 15 years thatallocation let's say it's a $10
million building or a $1million building and we end up
(04:11):
with 15% of it in short life.
That means that for that $1million building, $150,000 of it
can be expensed in year one, inyear one.
So if you think about it, ifyou're a investor in real estate
and you've got $150,000 ofrental income from that property
(04:32):
and you would normally be taxedon that rental income in year
one, you're not paying any taxand you can take that money that
you saved tax and you can useit to invest in another building
, put it into some other type ofinvestment, put it in your
pocket, spend it, do whateveryou want with it.
And what we see a lot of realestate investors do is they pace
(04:53):
themselves as they invest inreal estate so that every couple
of two or three years they'reable to buy another building
with the cash flow that they'resaving from the benefit of the
depreciation and that justcreates more depreciation
deductions, which then allowsthem more cash flow to reinvest
in their business.
Ed Mathews (05:11):
Yeah, and that brings up a really important
point, and that is that taxationpolicy elicits certain behavior
, and let's talk about that.
So, when the government putssomething like this in place,
what are they trying to get guyslike you and me to do?
Jason Melillo (05:27):
They want us to invest, they want us to spend.
This is how our economy expands.
The more we invest in property,that stimulates the economy
because we're buying things toput in our property If we're
building, certainly inmultifamily, for example, we
have a housing shortage and havehad for a number of years, so
they want to entice investorsand developers to spend money to
(05:52):
build properties so that we canprovide more housing for people
, which then when we build thoseproperties, we have to put
dishwashers and washing machinesand refrigerators and TV sets
and carpet.
All these things that will alsostimulate the economy and by
incentivizing us to get thesetax benefits, it allows us to
(06:14):
reinvest and that acceleratesthe economic growth.
Ed Mathews (06:19):
Yeah, here's the ugly reality, right?
The 2008 crisis.
Not only was it hard onhomeowners and hard on real
estate investors, it decimatedthe general contracting
population, and so what'shappened since that over the
last 17 plus years, is that itwiped out, from what I've heard,
(06:40):
as many as 50% of the generalcontractors who build, and so
they haven't come back.
They've gone off to do otherthings, and so one of the main
reasons why we've fallen so farbehind is aside from red tape
and a whole bunch of otherthings is because there are not
enough hands and feet swinginghammers and carrying lumber to
(07:02):
keep the people that arerequiring or need affordable
housing or even non-affordablehousing.
Those people don't exist inthis industry, and so everyone's
scrambling.
I live here in Connecticut andthe governor and the legislature
is moving heaven and earth toincent investors and developers
to convert office buildings andto take on opportunity zone
(07:25):
projects and a whole bunch ofother things that are really
incentivizing people investorslike us to take down a dormant
factory or a dormant officebuilding and convert it into
housing where hardworkingfamilies can live, and slowly
but surely, we're whittling downConnecticut.
Last count I heard was we weredown about 30,000 units.
(07:49):
That's the number everybody canagree on.
I've heard it's as many as50,000.
And that's just little oldConnecticut.
You're in California, I believe.
Jason Melillo (07:57):
Yeah, I can't imagine what your number is.
Just at the beginning of theyear we had massive fires out
here.
We lost about 17,000 homes justfrom the fires.
So if you think about what thatdoes to the LA County area,
which is a huge area, there's alot of people here that are in
construction but that's a lot toabsorb.
So where you're already short,then to lose that much in homes
(08:19):
it magnifies dramatically theissue was Indeed, and so let's
get back to bonus depreciationjust for a moment.
Ed Mathews (08:26):
How do you figure out what the depreciation is?
I know there's simple mathbehind that.
I'm going to let you explain it.
Jason Melillo (08:31):
You're the expert .
So within a building we dosomething called a cost
segregation study.
If you think about reverseengineering the cost of a
building, if you had newconstruction, it's relatively
easy because you can look atconstruction bills and things
like that.
But what do you do with abuilding that's 30 years old,
that transfers through an escrowstatement?
How do you know how much youpaid for those items that
(08:53):
technically would qualify forfaster depreciation, that 5, 7,
and 15-year lives?
And so that's what we do.
We take an engineering approachand we look at all of the
elements that qualify.
So if you think in an apartmentbuilding it might be window
treatments, a certain decorativelighting, all, of course,
appliances, which dishwasher andwashing machine and garbage
(09:14):
disposal and things like that.
But kitchen cabinetry,countertops and things like that
can qualify, with certain floorcoverings, wiring and things
that service.
These items also qualifies.
And then you get outside thebuilding.
You've got the land,improvements on the outside,
whether it's a pool or gates,and the irrigation systems and
things like that.
So these are the types ofthings that we would identify
(09:34):
and then we put a cost to it sothat we can then identify which
items are in those shorter livesand would qualify for the bonus
depreciation Right on.
Ed Mathews (09:43):
And so now I'm also curious about that process
usually takes, about how long.
For an average it's called amillion dollar building, so a
million dollars here is probablyan eight to 12 unit.
Jason Melillo (09:55):
Yeah, so we can do a study in less than 30 days.
It's just a matter of fittingit into our workflow.
But especially this time ofyear, as we get to the secondary
tax deadline, we're workingvery closely with many CPA firms
and their clients to get thingsdone before the 9-15 deadline
for partnerships and businessentities and then the 10-15
(10:15):
deadline for individualinvestors.
We've had it come up where I'vebeen called the last week
saying I have somebody.
It's the 10, 15 deadline.
Can you get an engineer outthere and get it done?
And we've got it turned aroundin less than a week so we can do
it when we need to.
We obviously prefer to havelots of time to fit it in and
not have to rush somethingthrough, but we're always
willing to work for somebody orwork with somebody to get it
(10:36):
done.
Ed Mathews (10:37):
You can have speed, quality or price If you you can
have speed, quality or price.
You, too, You're picking a weekout.
It's not price you're getting abreak on.
I can assure you.
That's right.
And with regard to that, whatare some of the other strategies
that you see investors like medelving into?
And bear in mind the buildingsthat I own?
A lot of folks that listen onthis show are probably owning
(10:59):
properties in a half million toless than $5 million range,
right, Sure, they're not the 250unit buildings more modest.
So at what point does it makesense to hire somebody like you
to do a cost seg?
Jason Melillo (11:12):
evaluation.
It's a great question.
So the point that it makessense is when you have taxable
income from your real estateactivity.
Now if there's a little bit ofcomplexity here, if you have
somebody that meets theclassification as a real estate
professional, you can actuallyuse depreciation deductions that
put you in a loss position.
(11:32):
You can take that loss andapply it against other ordinary
income.
You have a husband and wife.
The wife is a doctor, thehusband's the real estate
professional.
The husband's activity as areal estate professional creates
a loss.
That loss can be appliedagainst the wife's income from
being a doctor.
So that's where the real estateprofessional comes into play.
(11:55):
If someone is a passive realestate investor they don't meet
the criteria for a real estateprofessional.
Then you just have to becareful.
If you create a loss, that lossjust carries forward.
Your expectation is okay.
I created a $250,000 passiveloss.
I have to carry that to nextyear because I don't have enough
income.
So if you're generating $50,000a year of income from your real
(12:17):
estate activity, then you've gota loss that'll take you forward
for five years without havingto pay any tax, which is still a
victory.
But you just want to manageyour expectations around.
Maybe I only need to do adepreciation study on one
property instead of both of myproperties, because I can't use
them both at the same time.
In order to qualify for a realestate professional 750 hours in
(12:37):
your real estate activity andmore than 50% of your time.
If you don't meet thosecriteria, then you're
technically not a real estateprofessional.
You have somebody with aportfolio of real estate, but
they're also an attorney.
They spend 2,000 hours a yearin their business as an attorney
and they spend 1,000 hours ayear in their business as a real
estate professional, but as areal estate owner they're
(12:58):
technically not meeting thatcriteria because not more than
50% of their time.
Ed Mathews (13:02):
Right, they better be spending 4,000 hours Right.
Jason Melillo (13:06):
If you've seen some legal hourly rates for some
of the attorneys, I wouldquestion.
Maybe they are claiming tospend 4,000 hours, yeah.
Ed Mathews (13:12):
I have a very close friend who's an attorney and I
remember years and years ago andtalking about having to have
2,500 billable hours and I'mlike, wait a minute, the math
doesn't math, because that's 50hours a week just billing and
you had administration and allthat.
He's got 18 hour days.
Oh, okay, glad I didn't go tolaw school.
In terms of other strategies,opportunity zones has been one
(13:34):
of the things that we've hadguests on the show talking about
as well.
I'm curious about some of theother strategies that you see
higher-end investors takingadvantage of.
That would apply to anybody.
Jason Melillo (13:48):
I like looking at real estate from cradle to
grave.
And if you start out earlier inyour career and you're
investing in real estate, maybeyou're investing in a duplex or
you get that small apartmentcomplex or whatever it is that
you're investing in and then youwant to get something a little
bit bigger, how do you do thatwithout paying a bunch of tax?
(14:08):
The 1031 exchange tax-freeexchange for real estate
investors allows you to deferany gain that you had on your
real estate and investment.
So you paid $500,000 for yourfirst property.
Now it's worth $750,000.
We don't want to pay the tax onthat $250,000 gain.
(14:28):
So we do a tax-free exchange.
We use an accommodator,somebody that does this for a
living.
They take our property proceedson sale and they hold them
until we find the new propertywe're going to invest in.
They take those proceeds, putit into the new property.
Now we have our carryover basisfrom the first property plus
any increase in that basis thatwe can now depreciate using a
(14:53):
cost seg study again if we wantto take advantage of the bonus
depreciation on that step up,which is just the increase in
fair value above the originalfair value of our relinquished
property.
Just keeping it simple and wecan do that over and over again.
So if we're a real estateinvestor for 40 years we've gone
from that first $500,000property and now maybe we're
(15:16):
sitting on a $10 million assetbecause we've just been able to
trade up and keep growing thatasset and it may just be a
single property.
Maybe we've just been able totrade up and keep growing that
asset and it may just be asingle property.
Maybe we've expanded to aportfolio of properties and
along the way we've used thedepreciation benefits that exist
for us as a real estateinvestor to pay very little or
no tax, which I've worked withmany people that never pay tax
(15:38):
as a real estate investor.
And then when they die, there'ssomething called a step-up in
basis for their estate and sothey get a step-up in basis in
the fair value.
So their tax basis for incometax purposes might have been
very low.
Maybe it's a million dollars onthat $10 million asset.
(15:58):
There would have been a $9million gain.
But when they die, they get astep up in their tax basis to
the fair market value on death,which means that they now have
$10 million to either depreciateor they can sell the estate,
can sell that property for nogain.
So they avoid tax on the $9million gain.
Plus, they didn't pay anyincome tax throughout their life
(16:21):
because they 1031 exchangedthroughout their life, because
they 1031 exchanged throughouttheir life.
So from cradle to grave, youcould pay zero tax on real
estate investments.
Ed Mathews (16:29):
And so I want to.
We touched on it, but I want todrill into it so that
everybody's crystal clear onthis.
Ed Matthews buys a milliondollar building here in
Connecticut.
That property over the nextfive years increases to, let's
say, $2 million.
It's been a good five years,right, and now I have a million
dollar gain.
(16:49):
However, we did a cost seg andhave been able to whittle that
down, that income down by, say,200 grand, right, and so that
applies and basically zeros outthe income in our year one.
Now Jason comes along and sayshey, I like your property, I'm
going to buy it.
I want to buy it for $2 million.
Ed says, okay, that's fine.
(17:11):
Now he's got a gain of $800,000, right, my math correct, and I
don't want to pay taxes on that800,000.
So I'm going to turn around andbuy a $3 million building.
It's a like-kind exchange andI'm going to 1031, exchange my
money into that property and notpay taxes on that gain, right?
Jason Melillo (17:35):
Yeah, you're close.
The one difference is thedepreciation deductions that you
take.
One difference is thedepreciation deductions that you
take.
Those reduce the basis that youhave in the property.
So you went from a $1 millionbasis to an $800,000 basis.
So your gain is $1.2 million,not $800,000.
But if you had no other incometo report along the way then
(17:57):
you'd have that $200,000 losscarry forward to offset a
portion of that gain.
Ed Mathews (18:02):
But here's the thing that you hit on and I want to
drive home I'm paying $0 on thatfrom a tax perspective, on that
gain, whether it's a million ora million.
Two, because I'm 1031exchanging it into the larger
kind property, because I'm 1031exchanging it into the larger
kind property.
And then I'm going to rinse andrepeat for the next 50 years
(18:22):
until I die and my two daughtersafter the funeral, my estate
attorney does his work, puts myestate to bed, there's a stepped
up basis and now Katie andMaggie have let's call it $20
million in gains that they pay$0 on.
And I had paid $0 on all alongthe way because I did what you
(18:43):
just laid out.
Jason Melillo (18:44):
Yep, and so for them.
They can either retain theproperties on a go forward basis
and now they have $20 millionto depreciate or they can take
that cash out and put it in someother type of either diversify
it, put some back into realestate and put some into stocks
and bonds, whatever the case maybe.
Ed Mathews (19:03):
So there is a very simple note that is in some
vault in some attorney's officein Hartford, Connecticut and it
says two things.
It says sell everything.
So as soon as that, I literallywrote that because I love real
estate but I don't know that mydaughters and my wife like real
estate and I would rather havethem have the cash and do what
(19:24):
they need to do with it ratherthan have to manage apartment
buildings when that's not whatthey do.
So, yeah, my instructions arevery simple upon my death,
hopefully 75 years from now,Right, All right In terms of the
other things.
So we've talked about the 1031.
We've talked about depreciationand bonus.
Depreciation Is opportunityzones still a thing.
Jason Melillo (19:47):
Yeah, Opportunity zones are still a thing.
They were renewed and expandedslightly under the one big
beautiful bill Allows for peopleto defer gains on assets.
It allows for gains inreplacement assets that are
qualified opportunity zoneproperties to become federally
tax-free on sale.
(20:08):
If you are not doing thestrategy that we just talked
about and you're going to investin a qualified opportunity zone
property and then you want allthe gains during that holding
period to be tax-free upon sale,you can use that cash to pay
for retirement.
That's what you could do withthat.
(20:29):
So that's a good way.
And then the other thing as faras the cradle to grave example I
gave you go from managingproperty yourself or hiring a
property manager and having therisks that go along with it to
maybe getting to a point whereyou want to get into an
institutional type investmentwhere someone else is managing
it for you.
You can 1031 exchange out ofyour property into something
(20:52):
called a Delaware statutorytrust.
You've probably talked topeople on your show before about
this and it's a moreinstitutional way to take and
defer the tax, still get thebenefits of real estate but just
not have to worry about themanagement and you lose a
certain amount of control.
It's not a perfect world.
One thing I know about realestate investors is they like to
(21:13):
have control over their assets,but it does work for some
people.
When you get to be in youreighties and you just enjoy life
and cash a check once a month,maybe that's a good way to do it
.
So I like to just bring that up.
Ed Mathews (21:24):
Yeah, One of my friends had asked me a while ago
when are you going to retire?
I'm in my mid fifties and I waslike never.
At the very least, I'm going todo one deal a year, but in the
back of my mind of like, I'mnever managing that property,
I'm going to be handing it tosomeone a lot younger and with a
lot more hours on their handsto handle.
Yeah, I'll do a deal or two ayear, but it's going to be me
writing a check and expectingone once a month or once a
(21:46):
quarter, not swinging a hammerwhen I'm in my eighties.
Yeah, there's only so much.
At some point I'd like to walka beach or hit a golf ball or
see the world and all thoseother things.
All right.
So with that I'd love to getinto our lightning round the
final five.
Let's talk about purpose.
You've done very well andyou've helped a lot of
professionals get where they'relooking to go.
(22:06):
Nevertheless, you get out ofbed on Monday morning.
You charge right into theoffice.
For me, that's purpose.
What is that in your world?
How do you define purpose?
Jason Melillo (22:15):
I think there's two things.
One I like helping people.
I think it's fun to help peopleachieve their dreams, and I
also like growing something.
So I'm an entrepreneur thathappens to be a CPA and that for
my whole life I have beeninterested in growing a business
, and that's really what'sattracted me to help people do
what they do by doing what I do.
(22:37):
So we win together and I thinkthat's a great relationship.
Ed Mathews (22:40):
Yeah, it's the old Zig Ziglar Help enough people
where they want to go andthey'll eventually help you
where you want to go, exactlyRight.
So I'm always interested in,especially with senior leaders,
the mentors they've had alongthe way, and really I'm curious
about the best advice you evergot and who gave it to you.
Jason Melillo (22:57):
I think the best advice I've gotten from multiple
people.
My first mentor was my dad.
He was an entrepreneur as well.
He always said be a goodlistener.
If you're a great listener,people will tell you what they
want and what they need, whetherit's an employee, a client, the
markets.
If you're a good listener,you'll see where things are
(23:18):
going and what people arelooking for and find the gold.
And so that's what I've alwaystried to do in my career is to
be a great listener and learnfrom that.
Ed Mathews (23:26):
Two ears, one mouth, right Yep, and, as I'm sure,
make half a dozen decisions aday, and every once in a while
I'm talking like one out of athousand you probably like to
have back.
I'm curious about a mistakethat you've made along your
career that you'd love to haveback, and how did you handle it?
Jason Melillo (23:45):
I will say this that I make tons and tons of
mistakes.
I fail with purpose.
That was something that Ilearned in my career.
Early in my career, I wasdeathly afraid to make a mistake
.
One of my college professors Itook this entrepreneurial
program when I was in collegeand they said entrepreneurs like
slam dunks.
I was looking at things fromthat perspective.
(24:05):
You always have to be rightabout everything that you're
doing because you want it to bea slam dunk, and I learned that
you have to take calculatedrisks, and when you take
calculated risks and you'rewrong, then you learn something
from it, and the best way tolearn is to learn from your own
mistakes, and so I think themistake I made was not doing
that soon enough.
Ed Mathews (24:25):
So yeah, I used to work for a guy in my tech days
and he had a sign in his officethat said break stuff Right, and
couldn't agree more.
I fundamentally believe youlearn way more from your
mistakes than you do from yoursuccess.
I'm also curious about how youtake in information, how you
sharpen the proverbial saw.
What book are you paying?
Or even a creator, an author,who are you paying attention to
(24:47):
these days?
What's that book on yourphysical or virtual?
Jason Melillo (24:50):
nightstand.
Say Traction by Gino Wickman isone that we're an EOS firm.
We've been living by it for thelast couple of years.
So that from a book.
But I find that information iscoming at us so quickly that by
the time it gets to a book it'sold.
So I've trained my feed to sendme articles and periodicals,
(25:11):
and I spend most of my timereading those just to see what's
happening, what emerging issuesthere are.
I like to listen to podcasts.
I'm a fan of the All In podcast.
I think they talk about a lotof emerging issues, and so I
find that's a good place forinformation as well, Couldn't?
Ed Mathews (25:26):
agree more.
It's one of my favorites.
I'm also really curious andthis is the last question of the
lightning round how do youdefine success in your life?
Jason Melillo (25:34):
I would say if I'm having fun with what I'm
doing, then I'm successful.
I don't think you get to apoint in your life where you
don't need to do somethinganymore, but if you want to keep
doing it because you'reenjoying it, then that's the
reason.
That's the best reason.
I've always told people findsomething you're passionate
about and good at, and you'll besuper successful in life.
So I'm still passionate aboutwhat I'm doing.
(25:55):
What I define success by isthat if I'm still excited about
it, then I'm successful at itAbsolutely.
Ed Mathews (26:00):
It certainly makes getting out of bed on Monday
morning as well, right.
You can't wait to get to workor to do whatever you're doing.
So when you're not talkingabout saving real estate
investors from the horrors ofpaying federal tax, what do you
like to do for fun?
Jason Melillo (26:15):
I like to play golf.
I like to travel.
Tax what do you like to do forfun?
I like to play golf, I like totravel.
I have a ritual once a weekwhere I sit outside in the
afternoon and I smoke a cigarand just think so my three ways
to unwind.
I obviously don't get to do allof those enough, but when I get
to do it I really enjoy it.
Ed Mathews (26:32):
Excellent, and so if people want to learn more about
you or your firm, what's thebest way to do that?
Jason Melillo (26:38):
So if they want to learn more about our firm,
they can go to our website, kbkg.
com.
We have all kinds of resourcesthere articles, tools.
We have a software solutionsite.
As a matter of fact, for yourlisteners, if they want to use
one of our tools to help them doa cost segregation study for a
smaller property, for example,they can get a discount by just
(26:59):
using the promo code underground2025.
Awesome, thank you.
If they want to find me, theycan find me on LinkedIn Jason
Melillo.
Ed Mathews (27:06):
All right, Jason.
Thank you so much for your timetoday.
I know you're very busy and I'mgrateful that you were able to
carve out some time on yourschedule to speak with us.
It's a lot of fun, thank you.
Continued good fortune and keephitting them long and straight.
Jason Melillo (27:18):
Okay, will do.
Greetings and salutations, Real Estate
Undergrounders.
It is Ed Mathews with the RealEstate Underground.
Thank you again for making us apart of your day.
I just found out we havebreached the top 10 in global
multifamily podcasts, and thatis not because of me, that's
because of you.
So thank you so much forlistening, thank you for sharing
(00:53):
our show and, again, if you'renew to the show or if this is
your first episode, welcome.
And with that we're going tointroduce our esteemed guest,
Jason Melillo.
Jason, thank you so much forjoining us.
Jason, you're the CEO of KBKG,thank you.
And so for those folks whohaven't discovered you,
hopefully that means they don'thave tax problems, but if you
(01:13):
could just give us a littlerundown on who you are and what
you do for a living, sure.
Jason Melillo (01:17):
First of all, congratulations on making it to
the top 10.
Pretty cool feat, yeah, and I'mhonored to be here today.
Ed Mathews (01:22):
Turns out, it's more than my mom listening, which is
great.
Jason Melillo (01:26):
Sure, I can tell you a little bit about us.
We're not a tax preparer.
We don't prepare people's taxreturns for them.
We work with investors realestate investors and their CPAs
to provide certain tax benefitsthat are typically not done by
the CPAs.
Ed Mathews (01:42):
Essentially, we're a strategist on certain tax
matters for real excellent, andso when I hear tax strategy, the
first thing that pops into mymind is depreciation and bonus
depreciation, but I know we'retalking about a lot more than
that.
Jason Melillo (01:55):
Yeah, I think talking about bonus depreciation
and depreciation is verytopical.
Last month the one bigbeautiful bill was passed
bringing 100% bonus depreciationback, which is fantastic value.
It supercharges the benefits ofwhat we do for taxpayers and
investors.
So I think that's a big sigh ofrelief for a lot of folks in
(02:16):
the real estate industry thathave been monitoring that very
carefully to help bring thatback.
Folks like the Real EstateRoundtable, the American
Institute of Certified PublicAccountants, that worked hand in
hand to influence that and makesure that we're glad to have it
part of our arsenal again andit's really going to make a huge
difference for the taxpayers.
Ed Mathews (02:35):
Indeed, regardless of where you fall on the
political spectrum.
I'm a huge fan of that part ofthe bill in particular, but
opinions vary on everything elseand we're not going there.
Jason Melillo (02:43):
I can tell you, as somebody who's worked with
people on the far left and thefar right, the one thing that
they all have in common, thecommon ground, is they hate
paying taxes.
So that's the good news there.
That's the one piece of commonground I've noticed about people
with different political ideals.
Ed Mathews (02:59):
And let's talk about for those folks that aren't
really attuned to what bonusdepreciation is.
Jason Melillo (03:05):
Let's define it for the audience Sure Under the
tax law, people who buy propertyor whether it's real property
or personal property are allowedto take a systematic charge
against their income to reducethat income for tax purposes.
That systematic charge iscalled depreciation.
And what bonus depreciationdoes, instead of using a life of
(03:30):
five years or 15 years, or 27and a half years or 39 years,
depending on the classificationthat we're talking about for a
portion of that property thatqualifies as a shorter life.
So if it falls in the 20 yearsor less category, we can apply
bonus to it.
(03:50):
100% bonus means that we candeduct 100% of it in year one.
So if we buy a property realproperty, let's say a building
and a portion of that buildingis allocated to shorter lives,
whether it's 5, 7, 15 years thatallocation let's say it's a $10
million building or a $1million building and we end up
(04:11):
with 15% of it in short life.
That means that for that $1million building, $150,000 of it
can be expensed in year one, inyear one.
So if you think about it, ifyou're a investor in real estate
and you've got $150,000 ofrental income from that property
(04:32):
and you would normally be taxedon that rental income in year
one, you're not paying any taxand you can take that money that
you saved tax and you can useit to invest in another building
, put it into some other type ofinvestment, put it in your
pocket, spend it, do whateveryou want with it.
And what we see a lot of realestate investors do is they pace
(04:53):
themselves as they invest inreal estate so that every couple
of two or three years they'reable to buy another building
with the cash flow that they'resaving from the benefit of the
depreciation and that justcreates more depreciation
deductions, which then allowsthem more cash flow to reinvest
in their business.
Ed Mathews (05:11):
Yeah, and that brings up a really important
point, and that is that taxationpolicy elicits certain behavior
, and let's talk about that.
So, when the government putssomething like this in place,
what are they trying to get guyslike you and me to do?
Jason Melillo (05:27):
They want us to invest, they want us to spend.
This is how our economy expands.
The more we invest in property,that stimulates the economy
because we're buying things toput in our property If we're
building, certainly inmultifamily, for example, we
have a housing shortage and havehad for a number of years, so
they want to entice investorsand developers to spend money to
(05:52):
build properties so that we canprovide more housing for people
, which then when we build thoseproperties, we have to put
dishwashers and washing machinesand refrigerators and TV sets
and carpet.
All these things that will alsostimulate the economy and by
incentivizing us to get thesetax benefits, it allows us to
(06:14):
reinvest and that acceleratesthe economic growth.
Ed Mathews (06:19):
Yeah, here's the ugly reality, right?
The 2008 crisis.
Not only was it hard onhomeowners and hard on real
estate investors, it decimatedthe general contracting
population, and so what'shappened since that over the
last 17 plus years, is that itwiped out, from what I've heard,
(06:40):
as many as 50% of the generalcontractors who build, and so
they haven't come back.
They've gone off to do otherthings, and so one of the main
reasons why we've fallen so farbehind is aside from red tape
and a whole bunch of otherthings is because there are not
enough hands and feet swinginghammers and carrying lumber to
(07:02):
keep the people that arerequiring or need affordable
housing or even non-affordablehousing.
Those people don't exist inthis industry, and so everyone's
scrambling.
I live here in Connecticut andthe governor and the legislature
is moving heaven and earth toincent investors and developers
to convert office buildings andto take on opportunity zone
(07:25):
projects and a whole bunch ofother things that are really
incentivizing people investorslike us to take down a dormant
factory or a dormant officebuilding and convert it into
housing where hardworkingfamilies can live, and slowly
but surely, we're whittling downConnecticut.
Last count I heard was we weredown about 30,000 units.
(07:49):
That's the number everybody canagree on.
I've heard it's as many as50,000.
And that's just little oldConnecticut.
You're in California, I believe.
Jason Melillo (07:57):
Yeah, I can't imagine what your number is.
Just at the beginning of theyear we had massive fires out
here.
We lost about 17,000 homes justfrom the fires.
So if you think about what thatdoes to the LA County area,
which is a huge area, there's alot of people here that are in
construction but that's a lot toabsorb.
So where you're already short,then to lose that much in homes
(08:19):
it magnifies dramatically theissue was Indeed, and so let's
get back to bonus depreciationjust for a moment.
Ed Mathews (08:26):
How do you figure out what the depreciation is?
I know there's simple mathbehind that.
I'm going to let you explain it.
Jason Melillo (08:31):
You're the expert .
So within a building we dosomething called a cost
segregation study.
If you think about reverseengineering the cost of a
building, if you had newconstruction, it's relatively
easy because you can look atconstruction bills and things
like that.
But what do you do with abuilding that's 30 years old,
that transfers through an escrowstatement?
How do you know how much youpaid for those items that
(08:53):
technically would qualify forfaster depreciation, that 5, 7,
and 15-year lives?
And so that's what we do.
We take an engineering approachand we look at all of the
elements that qualify.
So if you think in an apartmentbuilding it might be window
treatments, a certain decorativelighting, all, of course,
appliances, which dishwasher andwashing machine and garbage
(09:14):
disposal and things like that.
But kitchen cabinetry,countertops and things like that
can qualify, with certain floorcoverings, wiring and things
that service.
These items also qualifies.
And then you get outside thebuilding.
You've got the land,improvements on the outside,
whether it's a pool or gates,and the irrigation systems and
things like that.
So these are the types ofthings that we would identify
(09:34):
and then we put a cost to it sothat we can then identify which
items are in those shorter livesand would qualify for the bonus
depreciation Right on.
Ed Mathews (09:43):
And so now I'm also curious about that process
usually takes, about how long.
For an average it's called amillion dollar building, so a
million dollars here is probablyan eight to 12 unit.
Jason Melillo (09:55):
Yeah, so we can do a study in less than 30 days.
It's just a matter of fittingit into our workflow.
But especially this time ofyear, as we get to the secondary
tax deadline, we're workingvery closely with many CPA firms
and their clients to get thingsdone before the 9-15 deadline
for partnerships and businessentities and then the 10-15
(10:15):
deadline for individualinvestors.
We've had it come up where I'vebeen called the last week
saying I have somebody.
It's the 10, 15 deadline.
Can you get an engineer outthere and get it done?
And we've got it turned aroundin less than a week so we can do
it when we need to.
We obviously prefer to havelots of time to fit it in and
not have to rush somethingthrough, but we're always
willing to work for somebody orwork with somebody to get it
(10:36):
done.
Ed Mathews (10:37):
You can have speed, quality or price If you you can
have speed, quality or price.
You, too, You're picking a weekout.
It's not price you're getting abreak on.
I can assure you.
That's right.
And with regard to that, whatare some of the other strategies
that you see investors like medelving into?
And bear in mind the buildingsthat I own?
A lot of folks that listen onthis show are probably owning
(10:59):
properties in a half million toless than $5 million range,
right, Sure, they're not the 250unit buildings more modest.
So at what point does it makesense to hire somebody like you
to do a cost seg?
Jason Melillo (11:12):
evaluation.
It's a great question.
So the point that it makessense is when you have taxable
income from your real estateactivity.
Now if there's a little bit ofcomplexity here, if you have
somebody that meets theclassification as a real estate
professional, you can actuallyuse depreciation deductions that
put you in a loss position.
(11:32):
You can take that loss andapply it against other ordinary
income.
You have a husband and wife.
The wife is a doctor, thehusband's the real estate
professional.
The husband's activity as areal estate professional creates
a loss.
That loss can be appliedagainst the wife's income from
being a doctor.
So that's where the real estateprofessional comes into play.
(11:55):
If someone is a passive realestate investor they don't meet
the criteria for a real estateprofessional.
Then you just have to becareful.
If you create a loss, that lossjust carries forward.
Your expectation is okay.
I created a $250,000 passiveloss.
I have to carry that to nextyear because I don't have enough
income.
So if you're generating $50,000a year of income from your real
(12:17):
estate activity, then you've gota loss that'll take you forward
for five years without havingto pay any tax, which is still a
victory.
But you just want to manageyour expectations around.
Maybe I only need to do adepreciation study on one
property instead of both of myproperties, because I can't use
them both at the same time.
In order to qualify for a realestate professional 750 hours in
(12:37):
your real estate activity andmore than 50% of your time.
If you don't meet thosecriteria, then you're
technically not a real estateprofessional.
You have somebody with aportfolio of real estate, but
they're also an attorney.
They spend 2,000 hours a yearin their business as an attorney
and they spend 1,000 hours ayear in their business as a real
estate professional, but as areal estate owner they're
(12:58):
technically not meeting thatcriteria because not more than
50% of their time.
Ed Mathews (13:02):
Right, they better be spending 4,000 hours Right.
Jason Melillo (13:06):
If you've seen some legal hourly rates for some
of the attorneys, I wouldquestion.
Maybe they are claiming tospend 4,000 hours, yeah.
Ed Mathews (13:12):
I have a very close friend who's an attorney and I
remember years and years ago andtalking about having to have
2,500 billable hours and I'mlike, wait a minute, the math
doesn't math, because that's 50hours a week just billing and
you had administration and allthat.
He's got 18 hour days.
Oh, okay, glad I didn't go tolaw school.
In terms of other strategies,opportunity zones has been one
(13:34):
of the things that we've hadguests on the show talking about
as well.
I'm curious about some of theother strategies that you see
higher-end investors takingadvantage of.
That would apply to anybody.
Jason Melillo (13:48):
I like looking at real estate from cradle to
grave.
And if you start out earlier inyour career and you're
investing in real estate, maybeyou're investing in a duplex or
you get that small apartmentcomplex or whatever it is that
you're investing in and then youwant to get something a little
bit bigger, how do you do thatwithout paying a bunch of tax?
(14:08):
The 1031 exchange tax-freeexchange for real estate
investors allows you to deferany gain that you had on your
real estate and investment.
So you paid $500,000 for yourfirst property.
Now it's worth $750,000.
We don't want to pay the tax onthat $250,000 gain.
(14:28):
So we do a tax-free exchange.
We use an accommodator,somebody that does this for a
living.
They take our property proceedson sale and they hold them
until we find the new propertywe're going to invest in.
They take those proceeds, putit into the new property.
Now we have our carryover basisfrom the first property plus
any increase in that basis thatwe can now depreciate using a
(14:53):
cost seg study again if we wantto take advantage of the bonus
depreciation on that step up,which is just the increase in
fair value above the originalfair value of our relinquished
property.
Just keeping it simple and wecan do that over and over again.
So if we're a real estateinvestor for 40 years we've gone
from that first $500,000property and now maybe we're
(15:16):
sitting on a $10 million assetbecause we've just been able to
trade up and keep growing thatasset and it may just be a
single property.
Maybe we've just been able totrade up and keep growing that
asset and it may just be asingle property.
Maybe we've expanded to aportfolio of properties and
along the way we've used thedepreciation benefits that exist
for us as a real estateinvestor to pay very little or
no tax, which I've worked withmany people that never pay tax
(15:38):
as a real estate investor.
And then when they die, there'ssomething called a step-up in
basis for their estate and sothey get a step-up in basis in
the fair value.
So their tax basis for incometax purposes might have been
very low.
Maybe it's a million dollars onthat $10 million asset.
(15:58):
There would have been a $9million gain.
But when they die, they get astep up in their tax basis to
the fair market value on death,which means that they now have
$10 million to either depreciateor they can sell the estate,
can sell that property for nogain.
So they avoid tax on the $9million gain.
Plus, they didn't pay anyincome tax throughout their life
(16:21):
because they 1031 exchangedthroughout their life, because
they 1031 exchanged throughouttheir life.
So from cradle to grave, youcould pay zero tax on real
estate investments.
Ed Mathews (16:29):
And so I want to.
We touched on it, but I want todrill into it so that
everybody's crystal clear onthis.
Ed Matthews buys a milliondollar building here in
Connecticut.
That property over the nextfive years increases to, let's
say, $2 million.
It's been a good five years,right, and now I have a million
dollar gain.
(16:49):
However, we did a cost seg andhave been able to whittle that
down, that income down by, say,200 grand, right, and so that
applies and basically zeros outthe income in our year one.
Now Jason comes along and sayshey, I like your property, I'm
going to buy it.
I want to buy it for $2 million.
Ed says, okay, that's fine.
(17:11):
Now he's got a gain of $800,000, right, my math correct, and I
don't want to pay taxes on that800,000.
So I'm going to turn around andbuy a $3 million building.
It's a like-kind exchange andI'm going to 1031, exchange my
money into that property and notpay taxes on that gain, right?
Jason Melillo (17:35):
Yeah, you're close.
The one difference is thedepreciation deductions that you
take.
One difference is thedepreciation deductions that you
take.
Those reduce the basis that youhave in the property.
So you went from a $1 millionbasis to an $800,000 basis.
So your gain is $1.2 million,not $800,000.
But if you had no other incometo report along the way then
(17:57):
you'd have that $200,000 losscarry forward to offset a
portion of that gain.
Ed Mathews (18:02):
But here's the thing that you hit on and I want to
drive home I'm paying $0 on thatfrom a tax perspective, on that
gain, whether it's a million ora million.
Two, because I'm 1031exchanging it into the larger
kind property, because I'm 1031exchanging it into the larger
kind property.
And then I'm going to rinse andrepeat for the next 50 years
(18:22):
until I die and my two daughtersafter the funeral, my estate
attorney does his work, puts myestate to bed, there's a stepped
up basis and now Katie andMaggie have let's call it $20
million in gains that they pay$0 on.
And I had paid $0 on all alongthe way because I did what you
(18:43):
just laid out.
Jason Melillo (18:44):
Yep, and so for them.
They can either retain theproperties on a go forward basis
and now they have $20 millionto depreciate or they can take
that cash out and put it in someother type of either diversify
it, put some back into realestate and put some into stocks
and bonds, whatever the case maybe.
Ed Mathews (19:03):
So there is a very simple note that is in some
vault in some attorney's officein Hartford, Connecticut and it
says two things.
It says sell everything.
So as soon as that, I literallywrote that because I love real
estate but I don't know that mydaughters and my wife like real
estate and I would rather havethem have the cash and do what
(19:24):
they need to do with it ratherthan have to manage apartment
buildings when that's not whatthey do.
So, yeah, my instructions arevery simple upon my death,
hopefully 75 years from now,Right, All right In terms of the
other things.
So we've talked about the 1031.
We've talked about depreciationand bonus.
Depreciation Is opportunityzones still a thing.
Jason Melillo (19:47):
Yeah, Opportunity zones are still a thing.
They were renewed and expandedslightly under the one big
beautiful bill Allows for peopleto defer gains on assets.
It allows for gains inreplacement assets that are
qualified opportunity zoneproperties to become federally
tax-free on sale.
(20:08):
If you are not doing thestrategy that we just talked
about and you're going to investin a qualified opportunity zone
property and then you want allthe gains during that holding
period to be tax-free upon sale,you can use that cash to pay
for retirement.
That's what you could do withthat.
(20:29):
So that's a good way.
And then the other thing as faras the cradle to grave example I
gave you go from managingproperty yourself or hiring a
property manager and having therisks that go along with it to
maybe getting to a point whereyou want to get into an
institutional type investmentwhere someone else is managing
it for you.
You can 1031 exchange out ofyour property into something
(20:52):
called a Delaware statutorytrust.
You've probably talked topeople on your show before about
this and it's a moreinstitutional way to take and
defer the tax, still get thebenefits of real estate but just
not have to worry about themanagement and you lose a
certain amount of control.
It's not a perfect world.
One thing I know about realestate investors is they like to
(21:13):
have control over their assets,but it does work for some
people.
When you get to be in youreighties and you just enjoy life
and cash a check once a month,maybe that's a good way to do it
.
So I like to just bring that up.
Ed Mathews (21:24):
Yeah, One of my friends had asked me a while ago
when are you going to retire?
I'm in my mid fifties and I waslike never.
At the very least, I'm going todo one deal a year, but in the
back of my mind of like, I'mnever managing that property,
I'm going to be handing it tosomeone a lot younger and with a
lot more hours on their handsto handle.
Yeah, I'll do a deal or two ayear, but it's going to be me
writing a check and expectingone once a month or once a
(21:46):
quarter, not swinging a hammerwhen I'm in my eighties.
Yeah, there's only so much.
At some point I'd like to walka beach or hit a golf ball or
see the world and all thoseother things.
All right.
So with that I'd love to getinto our lightning round the
final five.
Let's talk about purpose.
You've done very well andyou've helped a lot of
professionals get where they'relooking to go.
(22:06):
Nevertheless, you get out ofbed on Monday morning.
You charge right into theoffice.
For me, that's purpose.
What is that in your world?
How do you define purpose?
Jason Melillo (22:15):
I think there's two things.
One I like helping people.
I think it's fun to help peopleachieve their dreams, and I
also like growing something.
So I'm an entrepreneur thathappens to be a CPA and that for
my whole life I have beeninterested in growing a business
, and that's really what'sattracted me to help people do
what they do by doing what I do.
(22:37):
So we win together and I thinkthat's a great relationship.
Ed Mathews (22:40):
Yeah, it's the old Zig Ziglar Help enough people
where they want to go andthey'll eventually help you
where you want to go, exactlyRight.
So I'm always interested in,especially with senior leaders,
the mentors they've had alongthe way, and really I'm curious
about the best advice you evergot and who gave it to you.
Jason Melillo (22:57):
I think the best advice I've gotten from multiple
people.
My first mentor was my dad.
He was an entrepreneur as well.
He always said be a goodlistener.
If you're a great listener,people will tell you what they
want and what they need, whetherit's an employee, a client, the
markets.
If you're a good listener,you'll see where things are
(23:18):
going and what people arelooking for and find the gold.
And so that's what I've alwaystried to do in my career is to
be a great listener and learnfrom that.
Ed Mathews (23:26):
Two ears, one mouth, right Yep, and, as I'm sure,
make half a dozen decisions aday, and every once in a while
I'm talking like one out of athousand you probably like to
have back.
I'm curious about a mistakethat you've made along your
career that you'd love to haveback, and how did you handle it?
Jason Melillo (23:45):
I will say this that I make tons and tons of
mistakes.
I fail with purpose.
That was something that Ilearned in my career.
Early in my career, I wasdeathly afraid to make a mistake
.
One of my college professors Itook this entrepreneurial
program when I was in collegeand they said entrepreneurs like
slam dunks.
I was looking at things fromthat perspective.
(24:05):
You always have to be rightabout everything that you're
doing because you want it to bea slam dunk, and I learned that
you have to take calculatedrisks, and when you take
calculated risks and you'rewrong, then you learn something
from it, and the best way tolearn is to learn from your own
mistakes, and so I think themistake I made was not doing
that soon enough.
Ed Mathews (24:25):
So yeah, I used to work for a guy in my tech days
and he had a sign in his officethat said break stuff Right, and
couldn't agree more.
I fundamentally believe youlearn way more from your
mistakes than you do from yoursuccess.
I'm also curious about how youtake in information, how you
sharpen the proverbial saw.
What book are you paying?
Or even a creator, an author,who are you paying attention to
(24:47):
these days?
What's that book on yourphysical or virtual?
Jason Melillo (24:50):
nightstand.
Say Traction by Gino Wickman isone that we're an EOS firm.
We've been living by it for thelast couple of years.
So that from a book.
But I find that information iscoming at us so quickly that by
the time it gets to a book it'sold.
So I've trained my feed to sendme articles and periodicals,
(25:11):
and I spend most of my timereading those just to see what's
happening, what emerging issuesthere are.
I like to listen to podcasts.
I'm a fan of the All In podcast.
I think they talk about a lotof emerging issues, and so I
find that's a good place forinformation as well, Couldn't?
Ed Mathews (25:26):
agree more.
It's one of my favorites.
I'm also really curious andthis is the last question of the
lightning round how do youdefine success in your life?
Jason Melillo (25:34):
I would say if I'm having fun with what I'm
doing, then I'm successful.
I don't think you get to apoint in your life where you
don't need to do somethinganymore, but if you want to keep
doing it because you'reenjoying it, then that's the
reason.
That's the best reason.
I've always told people findsomething you're passionate
about and good at, and you'll besuper successful in life.
So I'm still passionate aboutwhat I'm doing.
(25:55):
What I define success by isthat if I'm still excited about
it, then I'm successful at itAbsolutely.
Ed Mathews (26:00):
It certainly makes getting out of bed on Monday
morning as well, right.
You can't wait to get to workor to do whatever you're doing.
So when you're not talkingabout saving real estate
investors from the horrors ofpaying federal tax, what do you
like to do for fun?
Jason Melillo (26:15):
I like to play golf.
I like to travel.
Tax what do you like to do forfun?
I like to play golf, I like totravel.
I have a ritual once a weekwhere I sit outside in the
afternoon and I smoke a cigarand just think so my three ways
to unwind.
I obviously don't get to do allof those enough, but when I get
to do it I really enjoy it.
Ed Mathews (26:32):
Excellent, and so if people want to learn more about
you or your firm, what's thebest way to do that?
Jason Melillo (26:38):
So if they want to learn more about our firm,
they can go to our website, kbkg.
com.
We have all kinds of resourcesthere articles, tools.
We have a software solutionsite.
As a matter of fact, for yourlisteners, if they want to use
one of our tools to help them doa cost segregation study for a
smaller property, for example,they can get a discount by just
(26:59):
using the promo code underground2025.
Awesome, thank you.
If they want to find me, theycan find me on LinkedIn Jason
Melillo.
Ed Mathews (27:06):
All right, Jason.
Thank you so much for your timetoday.
I know you're very busy and I'mgrateful that you were able to
carve out some time on yourschedule to speak with us.
It's a lot of fun, thank you.
Continued good fortune and keephitting them long and straight.
Jason Melillo (27:18):
Okay, will do.
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