February 25, 2025 • 29 mins
Menopause is not just a personal issue, it's also a workplace issue—but too often, it’s ignored, misunderstood, or left out of corporate wellness conversations. In this episode, I sit down with employment attorney Mark Carey to break down the legal protections (or lack thereof) for women navigating menopause at work and what companies can do to support midlife employees.
We discuss:
✔️ Your rights as an employee—Can you ask for accommodations? What legal protections exist?
✔️ The stigma around menopause at work—Why many women stay silent and what needs to change.
✔️ How companies can step up—From menopause-friendly policies to wellness programs that make a difference.
✔️ The role of education—Because even with policies in place, many women don’t have the knowledge or confidence to advocate for themselves.
If you’ve ever struggled with menopause symptoms in the workplace or wondered how businesses can do better, this conversation is for you. Let’s break the silence and start creating workplaces where midlife women thrive.
🎧 Tune in now! And if you’re an HR leader or business owner, let’s connect—I offer corporate wellness programs, including menopause education, webinars, and cooking classes to support your employees.
Links From the Episode
Mark Carey, Employment Attorney click HERE
The Employee Survival Guide Podcast
Looking for Menopause Wellness in the Workplace? Click HERE for what I offer
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hello everybody and welcome back to the Real Food
Stories podcast.
Last week, I posted a podcastabout workplace inclusion and
menopause and how it is time tostart talking about menopause in
the workplace.
Because here's the deal Abouthalf of the workforce is women
and about 47 million women willenter menopause each year.
(00:23):
That is one in every five womenin the workforce.
Now, out of the 20%, 20% ofthem will have symptoms severe
enough to interfere with workand life.
This not only affects women ona personal level, but it also
becomes a workplace issue.
The bottom line is that $1.8billion that is, billion with a
(00:47):
B is lost every year towork-related absences.
So retaining workers and makingthem feel supported has a huge
cost advantage, not to mentionthe fact that there is a huge
lack of education aroundmenopause itself.
Most women I talk to do notknow much about menopause.
They feel they have to tough itout, and there is not a lot of
(01:10):
awareness around nutrition andfood options and how to proceed
going forward in this new phaseof our lives.
That is my mission to educateand guide as many women as I can
about all the ins and outs ofmenopause.
But today I wanted to dig alittle deeper on menopause being
a workplace issue, because mostof the women I know are getting
(01:34):
up every morning and commutingto their jobs and work is still
the biggest part of their day.
So I'm bringing in an expert whoalso happens to be my husband,
mark Carey.
Hi Mark, hi.
Mark has been an employmentattorney in his own practice for
the past 28 years on theplaintiff side that is, you and
(01:57):
me and he has seen his fairshare of discrimination on
everything from ageism to genderissues.
Fair share of discrimination oneverything from ageism to
gender issues.
Mark also has his own verypopular podcast, the Employee
Survival Guide.
Welcome back, mark.
I know you have been on herebefore in a few different
capacities.
(02:17):
We did an episode a while backon stress in the workplace and
recently you came on just ashusband to talk about educating
men on menopause, which Igreatly appreciated and was a
very popular podcast.
But today I wanted to get yourperspective on the legal aspects
of menopause and then talkabout what employers can do to
(02:40):
help their female employees whoare experiencing this menopause
transition.
So, like I said before, I thinkthis conversation deserves a
seat at this podcast tablebecause menopause in our health
is such a personal issue, but itis also a workplace issue and
I'm not sure if women feelempowered enough to speak up at
(03:04):
work, if women feel empoweredenough to speak up at work.
So why don't we just jump in andstart talking about some of the
legal stuff and then whatworkplaces can do to help women
going through the menopausetransition feel supported?
So I'm going to just jump inwith the first question what
legal protections, if any, existfor women right now who are
(03:27):
experiencing menopause-relatedchallenges at work?
Are there anything that likeprotects women in the workplace
right now?
Speaker 2 (03:36):
Thanks, heather, I'm glad to be back and yes, there
are protections for women.
First issue there are state andfederal laws and also city laws.
If you live in New York City,you should all remember that
there's a New York City code lawas well, which I'll talk about
in a little bit, but there isthe Title VII of the 1964 Civil
(03:56):
Rights Act, which protectsagainst sex and gender
discrimination, menopauseobviously affecting women, and
the approach taken by lawyerslike myself is to handle it on a
gender basis, because women aretreated differently than men,
and so you would have thataspect of protection.
The other aspect is age,because menopause is affecting
(04:18):
women above the age of 40.
The Age Discrimination andEmployment Act, a federal
statute, protects women againstage discrimination, and so we
use this as a tool.
Both Title VII and the OlderWorker Protect I'm sorry the Age
Discrimination Act to protectwomen or at least try to
prosecute these cases againsttheir employers.
(04:41):
There's another category havingto do with disability, and
that's the Americans withDisabilities Act, and that
protects women in menopause,because the menopause affects
the endocrine system and so thecourts have held that that
endocrine system is a major lifeactivity and so that would be
(05:02):
also protected.
Speaker 1 (05:03):
All right, Hold on a second.
So let's explain this in sortof more layman's terms.
I thought that what I read isthat under the American with
Disabilities Act that menopauseis not protected, that you can't
make a claim that I havemenopause and therefore I'm
being treated wrong at work.
Speaker 2 (05:27):
Right, that's accurate, but that's also going
to be changing because if theAmerican workforce is
constituted by at least I don'tknow last I saw 50% or 57% women
, and the populations of womenat the workplace is ever
increasing in the ages of peoplewho are suffering from peri and
also from menopause, you'regoing to have a shift change in
(05:51):
the law to protect women, maybea protected classification, but
currently we use these statutesI just mentioned to facilitate
protection, but nothing outrightin the form of like an ADA,
disability for menopause.
Speaker 1 (06:05):
Right.
So right now there is nomenopause protection under the
ADA, but there is protection forgender and age discrimination,
correct?
Speaker 2 (06:17):
Correct, but I'm going to say that if you're
going through menopause, you'reexperiencing a change in your
endocrine system.
So I would argue, if you are anemployee suffering from
discrimination, that maybedisability for menopause on the
endocrine system impairmentwould be your disability.
Speaker 1 (06:34):
So the endocrine system is what regulates your
hormones in your body Right, andthat's protected under the ADA.
Speaker 2 (06:42):
Right, because it's a major life activity.
Speaker 1 (06:45):
What does that mean?
Speaker 2 (06:45):
major life activity Think of major life activity as
you're able to sleep, eat,eyesight, reproduction major
life activities of your body,your immune system.
Speaker 1 (07:01):
So can women then request work accommodations for
some severe symptoms like severehot flashes, brain fog, fatigue
, anxiety?
Can women request thoseaccommodations in their
workplace?
Speaker 2 (07:20):
You can and you should.
The question is becoming awareof them first, and then what to
ask for in the form of like, ifyou want to turn the air
conditioning up or fans in theworkplace or leave no absences,
all these are accommodations toallow you to work just like
(07:42):
everyone else, but without thebarrier caused by the alleged
disability of menopause.
Speaker 1 (07:48):
So what happens if a woman feels discriminated
against or forced out of theirjob due to menopause and maybe
the employer is not sayingyou're in menopause, now time
for you to go, but you arestrongly feeling like it's
because you are in midlifemenopause.
(08:11):
It might be age, it might bejust like the health issues that
are surrounding you.
Speaker 2 (08:15):
My first reaction is and I say this in my podcast as
well is document what'shappening.
Create your own narrative.
Put the facts on paper first,figure out what people are
saying.
Sometimes you'll havesituations at work where people
make comments or they treat youdifferently because of your
condition or protected statusbeing gender, age or disability
(08:38):
all the above.
But write out the chronologicalnarrative first.
Get your story down about whathappened and start to figure out
the inferences, because you mayjust misinterpret signs and
signals of the office, but maybeyou don't.
My hunch is that more often thannot, the workplace is very
cruel.
(08:59):
If you have if you're aself-advocate by yourself first
to figure out what's happening.
Once you get your storylinedown and you're feeling
discriminated against, you gotto think and pause.
If you tell your employeryou're discriminated against or
you think you might be, becauseyou tell the HR you're likely
going to be out the door soonand you want to create a
(09:19):
severance package situation, youneed to contact an employment
lawyer as well.
Package situation, you need tocontact an employment lawyer as
well.
But think about before you dothis, because it's a big it's
you're going to.
You're no longer going to beworking there very long it's not
like.
So I just want to make youaware that it's a very big
hurdle to get past.
Speaker 1 (09:35):
First, you know, a couple of decades ago.
So was pregnancy discriminationright, I mean women would get
outed because they were pregnantor right and didn't seem
employable, or and that's come along way, right.
So I'm going to assume or itsounds like from what you're
saying that menopause rightsmight become more of a more
(10:01):
notable thing in the workplace.
Speaker 2 (10:04):
We hope that they will because of the awareness
happening in society.
But remember employers.
It may be the 1950s again,because I just had a case with a
hedge fund where the person waspregnant and this person was a
real producer and she had herpregnancy and she was terminated
after that.
Speaker 1 (10:22):
Yeah, you get pregnancy discrimination cases
all the time, even though thereare laws in place for pregnancy
rights right under the ADA.
So or is it under the ADA?
Speaker 2 (10:34):
Pregnancy actually is a disability under Connecticut
law and some other states aswell.
But remember something my pointI'm trying to make is when you
claim discrimination, pleaseplan to exit your employment
soon.
At a later point in time,Employers don't react positively
to it.
I'm just forewarning you.
Speaker 1 (10:52):
Okay, I think ideally , most women are not wanting to
leave their jobs because nowthey're in menopause, I mean.
But you're giving some steps totake if you feel like you are
being unduly discriminatedagainst and if you want to take
some legal action.
Speaker 2 (11:09):
Right, let's take the word discrimination out.
Let's just roll back a littlebit and talk about getting
menopause accommodations andspeaking to HR, asking them, you
know, and developing aconversation.
So I just described earlier aworst-case scenario.
It doesn't have to be that way.
You can work with HR.
They're going to want to workwith you.
I read this morning, beforethis discussion, that 75% of
(11:32):
employers are interested inaccommodating women going
through menopause andperimenopause.
So have a conversation byexpressing what you need and
seeing how, in an adult fashion,that if they can accommodate
your needs, so they can be amore productive employee.
Speaker 1 (11:48):
Well, that's a good point, I mean.
So then I have a question howmuch of a responsibility can we
actually put on workplaces,versus being personally
responsible for our ownwell-being and, like our
menopause health and oursymptoms?
And I mean, is it a workplaceresponsibility?
Speaker 2 (12:09):
I would argue that it is.
You spend 2,000 hours a year,40-hour work weeks or more,
working for an employer, sothat's employer has obligations
to create an accommodatingworkplace, an equal workplace,
and this is no different.
So I would argue yes, theemployer has an obligation to
(12:30):
accommodate women.
Going through this and, by theway, you're creating workplaces
that are nurturing trust betweenemployees and employers.
Not having these policies welldoes nothing for trust.
If you go over the top and tryto accommodate or produce
menopause-friendly workplaces,you're going a long way to
increase and better your cultureof your office.
Speaker 1 (12:52):
Going a long way to increase and better your culture
of your office Right and, likeI said before, I mean this can
cost workplaces almost $2billion a year for women taking
time off or not beingaccommodated in their workplaces
.
Speaker 2 (13:09):
Yeah, employers have a lot to lose if they don't do
this, and I think that's what'shappening now.
This is catching on very, veryquickly and employers are
reacting in a very positive way,which is it just takes time to
see the developments of it, butclearly something's happening.
Speaker 1 (13:22):
Have you ever had a case that was menopause related?
Speaker 2 (13:27):
No, I actually had cases that are age and gender in
that category.
My suspicion is that women arenot either aware of the issue or
how to bring it up, or justfearful to bring it up at work,
which has to change.
They have to feel confidentthat their employer is going to
respect them.
Speaker 1 (13:45):
Yeah Well, I think that for a lot of women they
don't really.
There's this belief that we'rein menopause.
We have to tough it out andkind of suffer in silence.
Speaker 2 (13:59):
Is that the fear and stigma issue?
You know that they're fearingthat if they say something
they're going to be penalized insome way and maybe not give
them a promotion.
Speaker 1 (14:09):
Well, I think that there's just been a huge silence
around menopause in general.
That goes back generations, youknow.
And so now, then here is the.
We're here in the workplace anddo you bring this up with your
boss, you know?
(14:35):
Do you tell your manager likeI'm having menopause symptoms?
I mean, I imagine there wouldbe a lot of fear around bringing
up something like that and thereactions that it might stir up.
Speaker 2 (14:39):
I think people bring things to the attention of their
employers when it becomesdifficult to do your tasks at
work, whether it's remote or atwork.
It's getting in the way andthat's basically classic
disability type of likephenomena that something happens
like that.
It reaches a point where you'resuffering.
Don't suffer, I mean, expressyourself, communicate what you
(15:03):
need, and you might find a verypositive reaction by your HR
department.
Speaker 1 (15:08):
So you're saying that if women are suffering, if hot
flashes, any of these symptoms,are getting in the way of their
work, that they should bring itup to human resources or their
manager and express this and askfor accommodations?
Speaker 2 (15:29):
Right, and let me give you a little lawyer's
inside trick so that youunderstand something.
I do this all the time in mypodcast.
I give people the legal impactof when they do this.
So let's say, you tell HR andyour boss you're having issues
and you need accommodation formenopause.
When you do this, do it inwriting, but also do it verbally
(15:49):
You're creating a paper trailand it's a protected activity.
And what I'm, as the attorney,looking for what the HR
department is also looking foris that they don't retaliate
against you for making therequest.
Retaliation, discrimination isthe easiest thing to prove.
So document everything Emails,timestamps, of course,
communications.
(16:10):
You have follow up with anemail.
Hey, we talked about thisconversation.
I just want to follow up andmake sure you get back to me and
give them short timeframes torespond to you.
The ADA says you have to havean interactive process.
Think about adults talkingabout a problem, a major crisis,
and working through it calmly.
Speaker 1 (16:28):
All right.
Well, let's talk aboutsomething.
So this is all the legal jargonand you know this can feel
overwhelming, I think, to somewomen and there's a lot of fear
about you know that theseconversations don't go correctly
and that there could possiblybe some legal action, and that
can be very overwhelming, butit's good to know that that is
(16:50):
an option, Right Right, To knowthat that is an option, right,
right.
And so let's just for a momentimagine that you go to your
employer and you say I am havinga problem with this, this and
this, and hot flashes, anxiety,whatever it is, as part of your
menopause experience.
I want to talk about what someof the policies that companies
(17:17):
can put into place.
I mean, if your HR departmentis receptive to doing this,
putting some programs andpolicies into place, then that's
amazing.
I mean, they don't.
I don't think that they legallyhave to do that though, right,
but maybe the just someaccommodations.
(17:39):
But I'm talking about likebigger, bigger, more like
policies and like and programs,because you know again, like I
said before, I don't think youknow a lot of women don't have
that much education on menopauseyet.
I think it's becoming much moreopen and talked about that
women, I think, are just moreopen to having conversations
(18:01):
about this and not keeping it asecret.
But you know, I know what I canbe doing on my side and I want
to talk about that because I doa lot of corporate programs and
I'm going to talk about that ina second.
But let's talk a little moreglobally.
And just what kind of policiescan companies put in place to
(18:24):
better support women All right.
Speaker 2 (18:27):
So I believe the first thing you can look to is
and everybody overlooks this,but it's called the employer's
code of conduct.
If you're a public company, youhave an employer code of
conduct.
It basically says treateverybody fairly, et cetera.
Maybe it says something aboutmenopause, but highly unlikely.
And if you have menopausepolicies at work, maybe you can
(18:50):
promote them by asking them todo a seminar possibly.
You know there is.
Employers are going to bereceptive to doing this because
they already understand that theculture shift has happened, so
they're more likely than not toput on programs that discuss it.
Bring a speaker in.
So employers are interested inworkplace wellness and so they
(19:12):
can have such as like maternityleave, mental health, et cetera.
It's just another offshoot ofthat.
So you would havemenopause-friendly employee
wellness, menopause being partof employee wellness.
You can have a flexible workoption for experiencing symptoms
.
I mean, remember the FMLA theFeminine Medical Leave Act
covers this and likewisecompanies most likely have
(19:33):
short-term disability where youcan take one day, two days just
to get through what you're goingthrough.
Don't feel you can't ask for it.
Speaker 1 (19:41):
And you can use that.
You can use the FMLA days offfor you don't have to have a
reason, a specific reason I mean.
Do you have to tell youremployer like I'm having severe
hot flashes and I can't come intoday, or can you just take a
day off?
Speaker 2 (19:55):
You have remember.
You have the basic level.
You have a sick day, but if yousend an HR request saying I'd
like to have you know one dayoff for FMLA leave, short-term
disability, you can do that.
They do take paperwork but youcan request it.
Fmla is intermittent.
You can have it by the hour.
People don't understand this.
They have to take a six-monthleave of absence or something
(20:15):
like that.
It's not true Other aspects ofjust HR training and leadership
issues.
I mean, hr is constantly movingand evolving and I think that's
what's causing the developmentof menopause wellness in the
workplace, because HRdepartments by the way, most HR
departments are female andthey're attuned to this issue.
(20:37):
So that's probably driving themenopause awareness aspect in
corporations today.
Speaker 1 (20:46):
Okay.
So they're more like thesebigger global policies, maybe
right with insurance.
They're more like these biggerglobal policies maybe right with
insurance you could get.
I mean, I've been hearing aboutcompanies partnering up with
women's wellness companies totalk about hormones and
menopause and things like that.
So these are bigger like justthese insurance type of benefits
(21:08):
right that companies canprobably add on Right that
there's a lot of mystery and alot of confusion around
menopause.
So just to get educated on whatmenopause is.
(21:37):
So menopause and nutritionwebinars, you know just to like.
What is it?
How do you empower yourself?
What do you do about it from anutrition perspective?
From your food, from your dailylifestyle and living.
From your food, from your dailylifestyle and living.
(22:14):
You know food has such a hugerole in your energy, your focus,
your hormonal health, I mean.
And you know, during this timeof menopause and beyond, because
it's not just menopause andmenopause symptoms, but
menopause brings up a wholeother host of health issues
right at the same time becauseour dip in estrogen.
I know we're diverting a littlebit from the legal part, but
this is important.
Speaker 2 (22:35):
It's important to me too.
It's educational.
Speaker 1 (22:37):
Yeah, our drop in estrogen triggers our bone
health issues, heart issues,brain issues.
I mean energy, I mean so much,and so we want to learn, beyond
hormone replacement therapy, howto have our best health so we
can be the best employees at ourjobs, you know, and go in as
(23:01):
energized and as focused aspossible.
You know, I think there's alsoa need for support groups and
employee resource groups, youknow, for creating spaces where
women can get together and talkabout this so there is less
secrecy and shame around beingin menopause, because women
(23:24):
getting older is not the most.
There's a lot of stigma aroundit, just there's a lot of stigma
around it.
Speaker 2 (23:31):
Can I add my two cents in here?
If you're going to createspaces at work, but invite men
to these discussions, becauseI've gone to these webinars on
the web about menopause and Ifound it incredibly fascinating
and also just educational, notbecause I was just an employment
lawyer, but because I was justcurious and it was very
(23:51):
informative.
I mean, it did remove a lot oflike any type of, you know, bias
stigma that I could have had,and I think men should be
included in this discussion.
It's just not a female issue,it's a whole, you know,
workforce issue.
Speaker 1 (24:06):
Yeah, I totally agree with that.
I think that you know everywoman on the planet goes through
menopause at some point intheir lives, and I will tell you
without a doubt that if you area man, you know someone who is
going through menopause or whohas gone through menopause.
I mean, your mother wentthrough menopause, and your
spouse and the women that youwork with.
(24:29):
So I think that it is reallyimportant for men to get just as
educated as women on what'shappening.
This is half of the populationof the world, so I think that's
a great point too.
Speaker 2 (24:42):
Can I just add one more point to that?
I'm really about removingbiases in the workplace and
sorry, but men can be difficultsometimes and they or they can
be make ill-informed statementsabout women, and there are cases
that do reflect that, wherethey're asking another woman in
(25:03):
the workplace what are you goingthrough menopause, or having a
hot flash.
I mean, it does happen and it'sdiscrimination.
It is happen, it'sdiscrimination.
It is discrimination, but youhave to understand it does
happen and it's something weneed to educate against bias and
you educate, you remove biasand make people more
(25:23):
understanding and more welcomingand receptive to what's going
on with half the workplace.
I mean half the workplace.
It's incredible.
Speaker 1 (25:31):
Right, okay, so I appreciate your insights today
and any final legal takeawaysthat you want women to know or
you feel like they need to know.
Anything that you feel like youkind of left out about what
companies should be doing.
Speaker 2 (25:58):
For women.
I want you to be your ownself-advocate, but do it on the
down low, on your own device.
Keep track of what's happening.
Create a narrative.
Obviously, you're aware ofemployee monitoring, so don't do
any of this kind ofself-advocacy or preparation or
learning on a work computer.
Do it on your own device,because you don't want to call
yourself out.
Creating self-advocacy andmonitoring your own situation
very, very important so you'reaware when something actually is
(26:19):
happening and if it ishappening to you, there are ways
to handle it.
You can contact an employmentlawyer like myself.
I'm not trying to pitch myself,but just simply become more
aware.
You can listen to a podcastabout employment as well.
Employers are not going to tellyou the answers to your
situations.
This is a very forward-lookingtype of podcast episode.
(26:43):
Most companies are not yetthere, and so you have to be
very cautious and careful.
I'm sorry to say that, but beprepared, be aware, be mindful
of what you're doing and curatethe type of response you want.
You're in control of it.
You don't have to be subjectedto the wills of some company.
You have a right to say certainthings and you have implement
(27:05):
rights.
So just become more aware.
Speaker 1 (27:08):
I have a final couple wellness takeaways that I want
to just reiterate that I thinkmenopause education is so
important and if it comes fromthe workplace, that's great,
Even better, you know, becauseit's better to get really well
science backed information fromtrusted sources than try to like
(27:32):
figure this stuff out on theinternet or in social media with
wellness influencers and thingslike that.
So a couple just calls toaction.
If you are a woman strugglingat work, know your rights and
seek out support.
If you are an HR leader or abusiness owner, start taking
action to createmenopause-inclusive workplaces.
(27:53):
And if you want to bringmenopause education to your
workplace, definitely reach outto me.
You can reach out to Mark.
I will have these links in theshow notes for webinars,
programs and just generalguidance on how to make your
work experience as good aspossible.
(28:15):
So I think we covered a lot.
I think that we, you know,covered it all.
If anyone has any questions,I'd love to keep this
conversation going and you canalways reach out to me.
My contact info is in my shownotes and have a great day.
Speaker 2 (28:34):
Bye.
Hello everybody and welcome back to the Real Food
Stories podcast.
Last week, I posted a podcastabout workplace inclusion and
menopause and how it is time tostart talking about menopause in
the workplace.
Because here's the deal Abouthalf of the workforce is women
and about 47 million women willenter menopause each year.
(00:23):
That is one in every five womenin the workforce.
Now, out of the 20%, 20% ofthem will have symptoms severe
enough to interfere with workand life.
This not only affects women ona personal level, but it also
becomes a workplace issue.
The bottom line is that $1.8billion that is, billion with a
(00:47):
B is lost every year towork-related absences.
So retaining workers and makingthem feel supported has a huge
cost advantage, not to mentionthe fact that there is a huge
lack of education aroundmenopause itself.
Most women I talk to do notknow much about menopause.
They feel they have to tough itout, and there is not a lot of
(01:10):
awareness around nutrition andfood options and how to proceed
going forward in this new phaseof our lives.
That is my mission to educateand guide as many women as I can
about all the ins and outs ofmenopause.
But today I wanted to dig alittle deeper on menopause being
a workplace issue, because mostof the women I know are getting
(01:34):
up every morning and commutingto their jobs and work is still
the biggest part of their day.
So I'm bringing in an expert whoalso happens to be my husband,
mark Carey.
Hi Mark, hi.
Mark has been an employmentattorney in his own practice for
the past 28 years on theplaintiff side that is, you and
(01:57):
me and he has seen his fairshare of discrimination on
everything from ageism to genderissues.
Fair share of discrimination oneverything from ageism to
gender issues.
Mark also has his own verypopular podcast, the Employee
Survival Guide.
Welcome back, mark.
I know you have been on herebefore in a few different
capacities.
(02:17):
We did an episode a while backon stress in the workplace and
recently you came on just ashusband to talk about educating
men on menopause, which Igreatly appreciated and was a
very popular podcast.
But today I wanted to get yourperspective on the legal aspects
of menopause and then talkabout what employers can do to
(02:40):
help their female employees whoare experiencing this menopause
transition.
So, like I said before, I thinkthis conversation deserves a
seat at this podcast tablebecause menopause in our health
is such a personal issue, but itis also a workplace issue and
I'm not sure if women feelempowered enough to speak up at
(03:04):
work, if women feel empoweredenough to speak up at work.
So why don't we just jump in andstart talking about some of the
legal stuff and then whatworkplaces can do to help women
going through the menopausetransition feel supported?
So I'm going to just jump inwith the first question what
legal protections, if any, existfor women right now who are
(03:27):
experiencing menopause-relatedchallenges at work?
Are there anything that likeprotects women in the workplace
right now?
Speaker 2 (03:36):
Thanks, heather, I'm glad to be back and yes, there
are protections for women.
First issue there are state andfederal laws and also city laws.
If you live in New York City,you should all remember that
there's a New York City code lawas well, which I'll talk about
in a little bit, but there isthe Title VII of the 1964 Civil
(03:56):
Rights Act, which protectsagainst sex and gender
discrimination, menopauseobviously affecting women, and
the approach taken by lawyerslike myself is to handle it on a
gender basis, because women aretreated differently than men,
and so you would have thataspect of protection.
The other aspect is age,because menopause is affecting
(04:18):
women above the age of 40.
The Age Discrimination andEmployment Act, a federal
statute, protects women againstage discrimination, and so we
use this as a tool.
Both Title VII and the OlderWorker Protect I'm sorry the Age
Discrimination Act to protectwomen or at least try to
prosecute these cases againsttheir employers.
(04:41):
There's another category havingto do with disability, and
that's the Americans withDisabilities Act, and that
protects women in menopause,because the menopause affects
the endocrine system and so thecourts have held that that
endocrine system is a major lifeactivity and so that would be
(05:02):
also protected.
Speaker 1 (05:03):
All right, Hold on a second.
So let's explain this in sortof more layman's terms.
I thought that what I read isthat under the American with
Disabilities Act that menopauseis not protected, that you can't
make a claim that I havemenopause and therefore I'm
being treated wrong at work.
Speaker 2 (05:27):
Right, that's accurate, but that's also going
to be changing because if theAmerican workforce is
constituted by at least I don'tknow last I saw 50% or 57% women
, and the populations of womenat the workplace is ever
increasing in the ages of peoplewho are suffering from peri and
also from menopause, you'regoing to have a shift change in
(05:51):
the law to protect women, maybea protected classification, but
currently we use these statutesI just mentioned to facilitate
protection, but nothing outrightin the form of like an ADA,
disability for menopause.
Speaker 1 (06:05):
Right.
So right now there is nomenopause protection under the
ADA, but there is protection forgender and age discrimination,
correct?
Speaker 2 (06:17):
Correct, but I'm going to say that if you're
going through menopause, you'reexperiencing a change in your
endocrine system.
So I would argue, if you are anemployee suffering from
discrimination, that maybedisability for menopause on the
endocrine system impairmentwould be your disability.
Speaker 1 (06:34):
So the endocrine system is what regulates your
hormones in your body Right, andthat's protected under the ADA.
Speaker 2 (06:42):
Right, because it's a major life activity.
Speaker 1 (06:45):
What does that mean?
Speaker 2 (06:45):
major life activity Think of major life activity as
you're able to sleep, eat,eyesight, reproduction major
life activities of your body,your immune system.
Speaker 1 (07:01):
So can women then request work accommodations for
some severe symptoms like severehot flashes, brain fog, fatigue
, anxiety?
Can women request thoseaccommodations in their
workplace?
Speaker 2 (07:20):
You can and you should.
The question is becoming awareof them first, and then what to
ask for in the form of like, ifyou want to turn the air
conditioning up or fans in theworkplace or leave no absences,
all these are accommodations toallow you to work just like
(07:42):
everyone else, but without thebarrier caused by the alleged
disability of menopause.
Speaker 1 (07:48):
So what happens if a woman feels discriminated
against or forced out of theirjob due to menopause and maybe
the employer is not sayingyou're in menopause, now time
for you to go, but you arestrongly feeling like it's
because you are in midlifemenopause.
(08:11):
It might be age, it might bejust like the health issues that
are surrounding you.
Speaker 2 (08:15):
My first reaction is and I say this in my podcast as
well is document what'shappening.
Create your own narrative.
Put the facts on paper first,figure out what people are
saying.
Sometimes you'll havesituations at work where people
make comments or they treat youdifferently because of your
condition or protected statusbeing gender, age or disability
(08:38):
all the above.
But write out the chronologicalnarrative first.
Get your story down about whathappened and start to figure out
the inferences, because you mayjust misinterpret signs and
signals of the office, but maybeyou don't.
My hunch is that more often thannot, the workplace is very
cruel.
(08:59):
If you have if you're aself-advocate by yourself first
to figure out what's happening.
Once you get your storylinedown and you're feeling
discriminated against, you gotto think and pause.
If you tell your employeryou're discriminated against or
you think you might be, becauseyou tell the HR you're likely
going to be out the door soonand you want to create a
(09:19):
severance package situation, youneed to contact an employment
lawyer as well.
Package situation, you need tocontact an employment lawyer as
well.
But think about before you dothis, because it's a big it's
you're going to.
You're no longer going to beworking there very long it's not
like.
So I just want to make youaware that it's a very big
hurdle to get past.
Speaker 1 (09:35):
First, you know, a couple of decades ago.
So was pregnancy discriminationright, I mean women would get
outed because they were pregnantor right and didn't seem
employable, or and that's come along way, right.
So I'm going to assume or itsounds like from what you're
saying that menopause rightsmight become more of a more
(10:01):
notable thing in the workplace.
Speaker 2 (10:04):
We hope that they will because of the awareness
happening in society.
But remember employers.
It may be the 1950s again,because I just had a case with a
hedge fund where the person waspregnant and this person was a
real producer and she had herpregnancy and she was terminated
after that.
Speaker 1 (10:22):
Yeah, you get pregnancy discrimination cases
all the time, even though thereare laws in place for pregnancy
rights right under the ADA.
So or is it under the ADA?
Speaker 2 (10:34):
Pregnancy actually is a disability under Connecticut
law and some other states aswell.
But remember something my pointI'm trying to make is when you
claim discrimination, pleaseplan to exit your employment
soon.
At a later point in time,Employers don't react positively
to it.
I'm just forewarning you.
Speaker 1 (10:52):
Okay, I think ideally , most women are not wanting to
leave their jobs because nowthey're in menopause, I mean.
But you're giving some steps totake if you feel like you are
being unduly discriminatedagainst and if you want to take
some legal action.
Speaker 2 (11:09):
Right, let's take the word discrimination out.
Let's just roll back a littlebit and talk about getting
menopause accommodations andspeaking to HR, asking them, you
know, and developing aconversation.
So I just described earlier aworst-case scenario.
It doesn't have to be that way.
You can work with HR.
They're going to want to workwith you.
I read this morning, beforethis discussion, that 75% of
(11:32):
employers are interested inaccommodating women going
through menopause andperimenopause.
So have a conversation byexpressing what you need and
seeing how, in an adult fashion,that if they can accommodate
your needs, so they can be amore productive employee.
Speaker 1 (11:48):
Well, that's a good point, I mean.
So then I have a question howmuch of a responsibility can we
actually put on workplaces,versus being personally
responsible for our ownwell-being and, like our
menopause health and oursymptoms?
And I mean, is it a workplaceresponsibility?
Speaker 2 (12:09):
I would argue that it is.
You spend 2,000 hours a year,40-hour work weeks or more,
working for an employer, sothat's employer has obligations
to create an accommodatingworkplace, an equal workplace,
and this is no different.
So I would argue yes, theemployer has an obligation to
(12:30):
accommodate women.
Going through this and, by theway, you're creating workplaces
that are nurturing trust betweenemployees and employers.
Not having these policies welldoes nothing for trust.
If you go over the top and tryto accommodate or produce
menopause-friendly workplaces,you're going a long way to
increase and better your cultureof your office.
Speaker 1 (12:52):
Going a long way to increase and better your culture
of your office Right and, likeI said before, I mean this can
cost workplaces almost $2billion a year for women taking
time off or not beingaccommodated in their workplaces
.
Speaker 2 (13:09):
Yeah, employers have a lot to lose if they don't do
this, and I think that's what'shappening now.
This is catching on very, veryquickly and employers are
reacting in a very positive way,which is it just takes time to
see the developments of it, butclearly something's happening.
Speaker 1 (13:22):
Have you ever had a case that was menopause related?
Speaker 2 (13:27):
No, I actually had cases that are age and gender in
that category.
My suspicion is that women arenot either aware of the issue or
how to bring it up, or justfearful to bring it up at work,
which has to change.
They have to feel confidentthat their employer is going to
respect them.
Speaker 1 (13:45):
Yeah Well, I think that for a lot of women they
don't really.
There's this belief that we'rein menopause.
We have to tough it out andkind of suffer in silence.
Speaker 2 (13:59):
Is that the fear and stigma issue?
You know that they're fearingthat if they say something
they're going to be penalized insome way and maybe not give
them a promotion.
Speaker 1 (14:09):
Well, I think that there's just been a huge silence
around menopause in general.
That goes back generations, youknow.
And so now, then here is the.
We're here in the workplace anddo you bring this up with your
boss, you know?
(14:35):
Do you tell your manager likeI'm having menopause symptoms?
I mean, I imagine there wouldbe a lot of fear around bringing
up something like that and thereactions that it might stir up.
Speaker 2 (14:39):
I think people bring things to the attention of their
employers when it becomesdifficult to do your tasks at
work, whether it's remote or atwork.
It's getting in the way andthat's basically classic
disability type of likephenomena that something happens
like that.
It reaches a point where you'resuffering.
Don't suffer, I mean, expressyourself, communicate what you
(15:03):
need, and you might find a verypositive reaction by your HR
department.
Speaker 1 (15:08):
So you're saying that if women are suffering, if hot
flashes, any of these symptoms,are getting in the way of their
work, that they should bring itup to human resources or their
manager and express this and askfor accommodations?
Speaker 2 (15:29):
Right, and let me give you a little lawyer's
inside trick so that youunderstand something.
I do this all the time in mypodcast.
I give people the legal impactof when they do this.
So let's say, you tell HR andyour boss you're having issues
and you need accommodation formenopause.
When you do this, do it inwriting, but also do it verbally
(15:49):
You're creating a paper trailand it's a protected activity.
And what I'm, as the attorney,looking for what the HR
department is also looking foris that they don't retaliate
against you for making therequest.
Retaliation, discrimination isthe easiest thing to prove.
So document everything Emails,timestamps, of course,
communications.
(16:10):
You have follow up with anemail.
Hey, we talked about thisconversation.
I just want to follow up andmake sure you get back to me and
give them short timeframes torespond to you.
The ADA says you have to havean interactive process.
Think about adults talkingabout a problem, a major crisis,
and working through it calmly.
Speaker 1 (16:28):
All right.
Well, let's talk aboutsomething.
So this is all the legal jargonand you know this can feel
overwhelming, I think, to somewomen and there's a lot of fear
about you know that theseconversations don't go correctly
and that there could possiblybe some legal action, and that
can be very overwhelming, butit's good to know that that is
(16:50):
an option, Right Right, To knowthat that is an option, right,
right.
And so let's just for a momentimagine that you go to your
employer and you say I am havinga problem with this, this and
this, and hot flashes, anxiety,whatever it is, as part of your
menopause experience.
I want to talk about what someof the policies that companies
(17:17):
can put into place.
I mean, if your HR departmentis receptive to doing this,
putting some programs andpolicies into place, then that's
amazing.
I mean, they don't.
I don't think that they legallyhave to do that though, right,
but maybe the just someaccommodations.
(17:39):
But I'm talking about likebigger, bigger, more like
policies and like and programs,because you know again, like I
said before, I don't think youknow a lot of women don't have
that much education on menopauseyet.
I think it's becoming much moreopen and talked about that
women, I think, are just moreopen to having conversations
(18:01):
about this and not keeping it asecret.
But you know, I know what I canbe doing on my side and I want
to talk about that because I doa lot of corporate programs and
I'm going to talk about that ina second.
But let's talk a little moreglobally.
And just what kind of policiescan companies put in place to
(18:24):
better support women All right.
Speaker 2 (18:27):
So I believe the first thing you can look to is
and everybody overlooks this,but it's called the employer's
code of conduct.
If you're a public company, youhave an employer code of
conduct.
It basically says treateverybody fairly, et cetera.
Maybe it says something aboutmenopause, but highly unlikely.
And if you have menopausepolicies at work, maybe you can
(18:50):
promote them by asking them todo a seminar possibly.
You know there is.
Employers are going to bereceptive to doing this because
they already understand that theculture shift has happened, so
they're more likely than not toput on programs that discuss it.
Bring a speaker in.
So employers are interested inworkplace wellness and so they
(19:12):
can have such as like maternityleave, mental health, et cetera.
It's just another offshoot ofthat.
So you would havemenopause-friendly employee
wellness, menopause being partof employee wellness.
You can have a flexible workoption for experiencing symptoms
.
I mean, remember the FMLA theFeminine Medical Leave Act
covers this and likewisecompanies most likely have
(19:33):
short-term disability where youcan take one day, two days just
to get through what you're goingthrough.
Don't feel you can't ask for it.
Speaker 1 (19:41):
And you can use that.
You can use the FMLA days offfor you don't have to have a
reason, a specific reason I mean.
Do you have to tell youremployer like I'm having severe
hot flashes and I can't come intoday, or can you just take a
day off?
Speaker 2 (19:55):
You have remember.
You have the basic level.
You have a sick day, but if yousend an HR request saying I'd
like to have you know one dayoff for FMLA leave, short-term
disability, you can do that.
They do take paperwork but youcan request it.
Fmla is intermittent.
You can have it by the hour.
People don't understand this.
They have to take a six-monthleave of absence or something
(20:15):
like that.
It's not true Other aspects ofjust HR training and leadership
issues.
I mean, hr is constantly movingand evolving and I think that's
what's causing the developmentof menopause wellness in the
workplace, because HRdepartments by the way, most HR
departments are female andthey're attuned to this issue.
(20:37):
So that's probably driving themenopause awareness aspect in
corporations today.
Speaker 1 (20:46):
Okay.
So they're more like thesebigger global policies, maybe
right with insurance.
They're more like these biggerglobal policies maybe right with
insurance you could get.
I mean, I've been hearing aboutcompanies partnering up with
women's wellness companies totalk about hormones and
menopause and things like that.
So these are bigger like justthese insurance type of benefits
(21:08):
right that companies canprobably add on Right that
there's a lot of mystery and alot of confusion around
menopause.
So just to get educated on whatmenopause is.
(21:37):
So menopause and nutritionwebinars, you know just to like.
What is it?
How do you empower yourself?
What do you do about it from anutrition perspective?
From your food, from your dailylifestyle and living.
From your food, from your dailylifestyle and living.
(22:14):
You know food has such a hugerole in your energy, your focus,
your hormonal health, I mean.
And you know, during this timeof menopause and beyond, because
it's not just menopause andmenopause symptoms, but
menopause brings up a wholeother host of health issues
right at the same time becauseour dip in estrogen.
I know we're diverting a littlebit from the legal part, but
this is important.
Speaker 2 (22:35):
It's important to me too.
It's educational.
Speaker 1 (22:37):
Yeah, our drop in estrogen triggers our bone
health issues, heart issues,brain issues.
I mean energy, I mean so much,and so we want to learn, beyond
hormone replacement therapy, howto have our best health so we
can be the best employees at ourjobs, you know, and go in as
(23:01):
energized and as focused aspossible.
You know, I think there's alsoa need for support groups and
employee resource groups, youknow, for creating spaces where
women can get together and talkabout this so there is less
secrecy and shame around beingin menopause, because women
(23:24):
getting older is not the most.
There's a lot of stigma aroundit, just there's a lot of stigma
around it.
Speaker 2 (23:31):
Can I add my two cents in here?
If you're going to createspaces at work, but invite men
to these discussions, becauseI've gone to these webinars on
the web about menopause and Ifound it incredibly fascinating
and also just educational, notbecause I was just an employment
lawyer, but because I was justcurious and it was very
(23:51):
informative.
I mean, it did remove a lot oflike any type of, you know, bias
stigma that I could have had,and I think men should be
included in this discussion.
It's just not a female issue,it's a whole, you know,
workforce issue.
Speaker 1 (24:06):
Yeah, I totally agree with that.
I think that you know everywoman on the planet goes through
menopause at some point intheir lives, and I will tell you
without a doubt that if you area man, you know someone who is
going through menopause or whohas gone through menopause.
I mean, your mother wentthrough menopause, and your
spouse and the women that youwork with.
(24:29):
So I think that it is reallyimportant for men to get just as
educated as women on what'shappening.
This is half of the populationof the world, so I think that's
a great point too.
Speaker 2 (24:42):
Can I just add one more point to that?
I'm really about removingbiases in the workplace and
sorry, but men can be difficultsometimes and they or they can
be make ill-informed statementsabout women, and there are cases
that do reflect that, wherethey're asking another woman in
(25:03):
the workplace what are you goingthrough menopause, or having a
hot flash.
I mean, it does happen and it'sdiscrimination.
It is happen, it'sdiscrimination.
It is discrimination, but youhave to understand it does
happen and it's something weneed to educate against bias and
you educate, you remove biasand make people more
(25:23):
understanding and more welcomingand receptive to what's going
on with half the workplace.
I mean half the workplace.
It's incredible.
Speaker 1 (25:31):
Right, okay, so I appreciate your insights today
and any final legal takeawaysthat you want women to know or
you feel like they need to know.
Anything that you feel like youkind of left out about what
companies should be doing.
Speaker 2 (25:58):
For women.
I want you to be your ownself-advocate, but do it on the
down low, on your own device.
Keep track of what's happening.
Create a narrative.
Obviously, you're aware ofemployee monitoring, so don't do
any of this kind ofself-advocacy or preparation or
learning on a work computer.
Do it on your own device,because you don't want to call
yourself out.
Creating self-advocacy andmonitoring your own situation
very, very important so you'reaware when something actually is
(26:19):
happening and if it ishappening to you, there are ways
to handle it.
You can contact an employmentlawyer like myself.
I'm not trying to pitch myself,but just simply become more
aware.
You can listen to a podcastabout employment as well.
Employers are not going to tellyou the answers to your
situations.
This is a very forward-lookingtype of podcast episode.
(26:43):
Most companies are not yetthere, and so you have to be
very cautious and careful.
I'm sorry to say that, but beprepared, be aware, be mindful
of what you're doing and curatethe type of response you want.
You're in control of it.
You don't have to be subjectedto the wills of some company.
You have a right to say certainthings and you have implement
(27:05):
rights.
So just become more aware.
Speaker 1 (27:08):
I have a final couple wellness takeaways that I want
to just reiterate that I thinkmenopause education is so
important and if it comes fromthe workplace, that's great,
Even better, you know, becauseit's better to get really well
science backed information fromtrusted sources than try to like
(27:32):
figure this stuff out on theinternet or in social media with
wellness influencers and thingslike that.
So a couple just calls toaction.
If you are a woman strugglingat work, know your rights and
seek out support.
If you are an HR leader or abusiness owner, start taking
action to createmenopause-inclusive workplaces.
(27:53):
And if you want to bringmenopause education to your
workplace, definitely reach outto me.
You can reach out to Mark.
I will have these links in theshow notes for webinars,
programs and just generalguidance on how to make your
work experience as good aspossible.
(28:15):
So I think we covered a lot.
I think that we, you know,covered it all.
If anyone has any questions,I'd love to keep this
conversation going and you canalways reach out to me.
My contact info is in my shownotes and have a great day.
Speaker 2 (28:34):
Bye.
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