August 15, 2025 • 55 mins
Dr. Richard Ferguson, Chief Medical Officer at Health Choice of Utah and founder of Black Physicians of Utah, shares his journey from military surgeon to health equity champion and discusses strategies for improving healthcare outcomes for Black men.
• Board-certified in family practice with experience in emergency medicine and military service
• Founded Black Physicians of Utah to increase representation and provide support for Black physicians
• Military service as a battalion surgeon in Iraq profoundly influenced his humanitarian work
• Currently leads Black Physicians of Utah with approximately 30 Black physician members
• Organizes community health events focused on brain health, Alzheimer's awareness, and cardiovascular fitness
• Addresses cultural barriers to mental health treatment within Black communities
• Advocates for regular preventive care visits, bringing support to medical appointments
• Recommends 150 minutes of physical activity weekly and utilizing public health resources
• Emphasizes the importance of early intervention and not waiting until symptoms are severe
• Creates pathways for Black students to enter medicine through mentorship programs
To learn more about Black Physicians of Utah and upcoming events, visit bpou.org or find them on Instagram, TikTok, and LinkedIn under Black Physicians of Utah.
#blackphysiciansofutah
#blackphysicians
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Grantley Martelly (00:11):
This is the Real Health Black Men podcast,
where we empower men to takecontrol of their health.
We provide vital informationand build community support.
Join us as we discusseverything from major health
challenges to mental wellness tophysical fitness.
So if you're ready to level upyour health and your life,
you're in the right place.
(00:31):
Let's get started.
So welcome back to Real HealthBlack Men Podcast, and today my
guest is Dr Richard Ferguson ofthe Black Physicians of Utah.
(00:52):
He's a board certified infamily practice.
He's also practiced emergencymedicine and has served as a
brigade surgeon in the UnitedStates Army.
He's going to tell us moreabout himself as we get into it,
but Dr Ferguson is also now theChief Medical Officer at Health
Choice of Utah.
So welcome, Dr Ferguson, to ourpodcast.
Dr. Richard Ferguson (01:13):
Thank you for having me here.
I'm excited for our discussion.
Grantley Martelly (01:16):
I'm excited too.
So let's take a couple ofminutes to introduce yourself.
Tell us a little bit of thingsabout you that you think our
audience might be interested in,and then we'll get into the
discussion.
Dr. Richard Ferguson (01:25):
Yeah, I think probably the easiest way
is I'm a Washington DC nativeborn and raised, did most of
pretty much all of my schoolingthere and then went off to do
college or finish college atNorthwestern out in north of
Chicago and then did a littlebit of stint in Japan as I
(01:47):
started on my path to join themilitary.
Actually, I commissioned as ayoung second lieutenant when I
was in Japan right aftergraduating in undergrad in
genetics and then getting intomed school.
A lot of my passion of going tomedicine has been inspired
because of what's happened in myfamily.
I think that many Blackfamilies have experienced where
(02:09):
there was often preventablediseases or preventable
conditions.
That was a lot of my primarymotivation but also my strong
sense of service to my family.
My father was prior Navy, I hadprior Force and my uncles and
Navy and Army and my uncle soservice being a DC Beltway or, I
(02:30):
guess, a child of the Beltway,it seemed quite normal for me to
join the service but also topursue medicine because of some
of the institutions thatinfluenced me during my youth in
Washington DC.
So, to kind of sum that up, Ispent seven years active duty
(02:51):
doing my training and actuallymy initial residency was
actually in ophthalmology.
I did that for about a year anda half before I separated and
then finished in family medicineand then eventually just
practiced emergency medicine forthe last 13 years now.
And then my day job is inhealth insurance, which I'm
trying to have a larger impacton our health system and try to
(03:16):
put less barriers to care whenit comes to access, because
insurance can definitely besometimes part of that barrier.
And then I started BlackPhysicians of Utah because I
realized that some of the wayswe can best address health
equity for black andmarginalized groups throughout
our nation is really trying toget more doctors that look like
(03:37):
myself in medicine.
And that's probably me a littlebit in a nutshell.
Grantley Martelly (03:42):
Okay, well, that's a good introduction.
So you also served in themilitary as a military surgeon?
You touched on that.
Tell us a little bit in anutshell.
Okay, well, that's a goodintroduction.
So you also served in themilitary as a military surgeon?
You touched on that.
Tell us a little bit about whatthat was like and what that
entails.
Dr. Richard Ferguson (03:52):
So I think sometimes when we use the term
surgeon it means somethingdifferent in role in the
military than it does sometimeswhen civilians refer to surgeon.
So I initially was a battalionsurgeon when I was in Iraq and
when I was there for that was mylongest deployment 15 months.
(04:15):
A battalion is just usually aunit that's 900 to up to about
2000 troops that you will bemanaging the care for and
usually you have like a PAtroops that you will be managing
to care for and usually youhave like a PA, several medics
that will be under my sort ofmedical team and I'm part of the
senior leadership that would bealong with that of the colonel
(04:35):
and the executive officer.
That's part of that largerbattalion and so it's based on.
So surgeon really in the Army,depending on your residency,
training status is a title thatjust goes to a physician that's
in a deployable unit and as theunit gets bigger it becomes
(04:58):
brigade surgeon.
So now it's 5,000 or more andyou're the chief doctor for
those number of folks.
But they give you the surgeontitle, which often doesn't mean
I'm operating, it just means I'mthe head physician for that
organization size.
So then the next after that isdivision surgeon, and so that's
several thousands, that's tensof thousands.
(05:19):
That would be a part of that,so several brigades that make up
a division Anyhow.
But during my time it was reallyjust maintaining, doing
preventative care and makingsure that many of my soldiers
got off the specialist.
If they need them, I wouldtreat them or supervise my PAs.
That would be treating many ofmy soldiers.
That would either have beenwhen we were in country or
(05:44):
excuse me, not in country, whenwe were based in the US versus
when we were forward deployed.
I would be the chief, almostkind of medical officer role for
that unit.
Usually I would have then amore senior doc that I could go
and ask something to, such as abrigade surgeon.
But at the battalion level itwas just often me and the
(06:06):
colonel, who's non-medical, andmy PA that I would work along
with taking care of acute needs,chronic care and often trauma
and death that would occur tosoldiers in and out of the US.
Grantley Martelly (06:21):
Okay, you said in your short bio that that
had a profound effect on yourlife.
What do you mean by that?
Dr. Richard Ferguson (06:30):
Well, I think it probably has led to me
wanting to do a lot ofhumanitarian care, because I was
part of General Petraeus'hearts and minds, part of his
underlying mission to try to nothave America seen seen as so
much our troops seen as an enemyuh, between 2007 to like 2010,
(06:54):
I would say, when we uh, when alot of our servicemen were there
, and so he would use some ofthe medical components to try to
build this bridge so thatsmaller militias would pretty
much rat on the insurgents thatwould set bombs and be
disruptors in our area ofoperation in Iraq and often
(07:19):
those red zones.
So we would try to befriendsome of the sheiks, local sheiks
and local community leaders byproviding medical care.
So that's part of the heartsand minds and that has had a
profound impact.
And that's once I exited theArmy.
I then would pursue to leadmedical missions or be a part of
(07:39):
a medical mission in formerwar-torn areas or underserved
regions of the world, or alsowhen just responding to
humanitarian disasters.
So I went to take care ofHaitians after the earthquake.
I actually had an opportunityto go to Nepal after their big
earthquake in 2015.
(08:00):
But the way that things wereoccurring at that time I didn't
go because the troop leader said, or the leader of the mission
actually said, you can come, butyou know we really need
somebody that knows how to do.
You know that's a craneoperator because we don't really
need more doctors on the ground.
And he says and I don't know,because of the amount of medical
(08:20):
supplies coming in, we can'treally guarantee that you can
leave in two weeks to get backto work.
So I ended up not going to thatdisaster but I've been able to
be a part of.
You know, there's unfortunatelya lot of migration that's
occurring in North Africa, inthe Middle East, because of so
much unrest and there's a lot ofdisplacement and so a lot of
(08:41):
people aren't getting their careneeds met, got a lot of
preventable diseases, dysentery,that there's just not enough
healthcare providers and theresome of them are even in
undocumented UN camps, right?
So who takes care of peoplethat the UN doesn't really have
visibility of?
And so that's where I wouldjoin certain aid teams to go and
(09:03):
provide care for seven to 10days.
So that probably is the longestimpact from my time in service.
And but that community servicehas also birthed.
You know it was able to birthBPU and wanting to continue to
give back and not have to findan organization to do that with,
I just created my own.
Grantley Martelly (09:29):
Well, let's get into talking about Black
Physicians of Utah.
You said you created it.
Tell us a little bit more abouthow you got to that point and
your vision and your focus, andwhat are some of the major
projects you might be working onin that area.
Dr. Richard Ferguson (09:38):
I would say, well, my vision for wanting
to do it.
It started with another uhorganization doing we're working
, you know, often towards thesame means and it's called black
men in white coats, and theymade a movie called black men in
white coats that was shining alight on the deficit and the,
(10:03):
you know, very slow, non-growingnumbers of black male
physicians in America, and someof that being that, you know, a
black male, 18 to 45 has ahigher likelihood of being
incarcerated instead of being ina position wearing a white coat
, like myself, you know,complaining, medical training,
(10:25):
completing residency.
There's so many forces fromthis vestiges of prior
oppression to just stereotypesof fear and anxiety surrounding
black men in America, and so yougot some of those things there
that make it harder for us toreally enter this field and just
sometimes it's just rolemodeling and examples by other
(10:48):
Black men, so that you know,those of us that are here can
definitely pull several brothersup to show them or get them to
go onto this path, and it hasbeen shown in several studies
that people are more likelyblack folks particularly are
more likely to be more compliant, feel more respected, their
(11:09):
concerns believed, if they'rereceiving care from someone that
has a similar background orracial aspect as them, and so I
realized that we could improvethe care, quality of care,
access to care for many of thosein the Black community and also
outside of the Black community.
I mean, it's actually come outto say if you have a physician
(11:31):
of color, you're likely toreceive a higher chance of
culturally competent care andget more of your questions
answered, less likely to bedismissed Because there might be
a shared struggle or sense ofthat in the room.
And, uh, when you're having aprovider that's coming from a
marginalized group and that'swhat bpl you wanted to do or has
(11:51):
been doing, uh, it was actuallya small world.
I ran into one of our menteesyesterday.
He was with his family, uh, inthe uh group parking lot of
Smith's yesterday and he had todecide between University of
Utah School of Medicine andMorehouse and he was really
(12:14):
struggling with that when welast spoke at the end of March.
But the thing is he's in aposition that he has an option
to choose which med school to goto, and so I was so happy and
his mom was so thankful becausewe did mock interview prep for
him.
We did quite a bit of prephelped him with his personal
statement application, and hedid well, and the only problem,
(12:34):
though, is I think he might bethe only Black student in this
incoming year out of 125 for theleading med school in the state
.
So there's a lot of work thatmy institution has to do or,
excuse me, university of Utahhas to do, but it's going to
take sort of external partnerslike myself, I think, to try to
(12:55):
help with that.
Grantley Martelly (12:56):
Okay, so he's choosing to go to University of
Utah over Morehouse.
I guess that's what you'resaying.
Yeah, yeah, okay.
Dr. Richard Ferguson (13:04):
So let's talk yeah, go on sir.
Grantley Martelly (13:06):
So let's talk about Black physicians in Utah.
Are there many Black physiciansin Utah, or maybe physicians of
color?
I'm sure that you have manypeople in your organization who
are not necessarily Black.
Dr. Richard Ferguson (13:19):
So I look at it this way.
So I wouldn't use the term many, but we also have to look
greater at Utah.
So just in regards to doctorsper capita, I think we're 44th
in the nation of number of,let's say, just use primary care
(13:39):
providers.
I think there's one primarycare provider.
I have to look at our ratio.
I want to say it's one primarycare provider per patient 700
people here in Utah, which isn'ta great ratio and so.
(14:00):
But on top of that, we don'thave enough primary care
physicians in the state, so itleads to a very long wait time.
And then, on top of that, howmany of them have gone through
training so that they practiceless bias when they're providing
care?
So then you have that makes thenumber even smaller.
So right now, not includingresidents, there's about 30
(14:23):
black physicians that aremembers of my organization.
There are a handful, three orfour, I would say about three
that don't align with my mission.
That's probably a separatediscussion.
I think it's sometimes that itmay be with my leadership style.
It may be, hey, I'm busy or I'mcontent with what I give to the
(14:45):
black community, don't need tobe part of an organization,
whatever it may be.
But there's about 30 andthere's probably, I think, about
10 to 12 that are in residencyor fellowship training that are
Black in Utah.
Grantley Martelly (15:01):
Yeah, I lived in Utah for 30 years so I
didn't run into many Blackphysicians in Utah.
We had good medical carebecause of the university and um
there and both utah state anduniversity of utah, but not many
, not many black physicians thatI that I ran into there when I
(15:25):
was here, uh, when I wastraining here, I saw just the
resident that was ahead of me.
Her name was Dr.
Erica Baden, who's now anactive part of my group she's
actually our vice president forBPLU and Dr Jessica Jones, and
that was about it.
And then for years when I wasjust doing traveling emergency
(15:50):
medicine, I would always comeback and I'm like, wow, I know
there's got to be more of us.
So I said, well, let me createa home, let me create an
organization that people canbelong to, black doctors can
belong to, maybe a providerdirectory.
Now, mind you, much of thepopulation can't, don't really
(16:20):
have reasons to see these blackdoctors because they're all
highly subspecialized.
So you know, we have a blackcardiologist that's down in
Southern Utah, in St George.
He's an interventionalcardiologist.
So unless you're getting astent placed in your heart or
needing his involvement whenyou're having a bypass or after
(16:41):
you receive your bypass, orgetting significant medication
management after a heart attack,you're not going to just go and
see him.
We have another cardiologistthat's local, that's at the?
U, but she specializes as acardiologist for heart
transplants.
So you know your general mill.
(17:02):
I want to see a blackcardiologist.
You just can't easily see her.
We have two black obs, but oneof them is only for high risk.
So if you're not high risk,you're not going to be able to
see her, right.
So we have all these high.
So if we were larger, if therewas more of us, we'd have more.
Those were generally accessibleto the public more
(17:24):
pediatricians, more family docs,internal medicine but it takes
many years to grow a doc andalso they have to feel supported
.
In Utah and that's the biggerthing about BPU, we're a support
system for Black physiciansbecause we know they're going to
face some form ofmicroaggressions and racism.
It won't be the ugly racism of,say, the Southeast, but it's
(17:46):
here.
Yeah, I know that from living there.
Dr. Richard Ferguson (17:53):
It's kind of that nice in your face.
Grantley Martelly (17:55):
racism- yeah, nice in your face, racism.
Dr. Richard Ferguson (17:58):
Yeah, it's like you know things.
An example would be, or thiswould be, a racial
microaggression.
Wow, you speak really well fora fill in the blank, or that was
really well articulated.
I was a bit surprised.
Hmm Is that a compliment,finding it as an insult.
Grantley Martelly (18:18):
Yeah, we run into a lot, lots of that.
Let's talk about the upcomingevents and projects that you may
have, but what are some of thethings that your organization is
doing?
Dr. Richard Ferguson (18:30):
Wow, I mean, can I give a quick recap
of what we did for Juneteenthweek?
Grantley Martelly (18:34):
Yeah, that'd be a great start, yeah.
Dr. Richard Ferguson (18:36):
Yeah, so we were very busy, but once
again, my soul, my heart, wasfull because of what I was able
to convey and share.
So June not only it beingcontaining Father's Day and also
Juneteenth our overarchingtheme that we as BPLU have on
our homepage, that we send outour newsletter, was on brain
(19:00):
health.
And then part of brain healthis not so much addressing a
vascular issue, say, like stroke, but it's really addressing
early signs of cognitive declinethat can be evidence of
dementia that we feel.
Many that are Black, latinocommunities.
We often are seeking help forour loved ones that may be
experiencing early cognitivedecline and not getting them
(19:23):
screened sooner so they havemore opportunity to delay the
disease process that's leadingto the cognitive decline.
Right, there's new treatmentsnow that are for Alzheimer's
that if you don't catch it, it'sand it only can be provided at
a certain stage.
So, but if you're not screened,how will someone know the stage
?
And then, so we did an, we didan event last Wednesday, day
(19:46):
before Juneteenth.
That was Alzheimer's, you knowwhat you need to know.
And we had a blackgerontologist that's.
Our name was Donell Hubbard,who is the regional director for
Alzheimer's Association for theMountain West.
So she came out.
We also had a local agingservices specialized licensed
(20:10):
clinical social worker.
Actually, both backgrounds arelicensed clinical social workers
, but they were great.
I went on there.
We had a stage.
It was in downtown Salt LakeCity.
We had about 26 peopleregistered for the event.
Highly informative.
A lot of people were gettingsome answers, sharing personal
stories about how the impact toa caretaker is that we, you know
(20:34):
, we sometimes don't realize.
Uh, it's happening whensomeone's going through the
development or worsening ofdementia.
So we talked about what it is,how dementia varies from actual
aging.
Uh, and then what resourcesthat people have locally.
And then the next day, uh, wewent on to have our uheteenth
(20:56):
event.
That was at PBS, with Roots andCulture hosts Lonzo Liggins and
I think his name is Darren, butthey're the hosts of a local
show on PBS here in Utah calledRoots and Culture Roots, race
and Culture, and we discussedwhat was the significance of
Juneteenth.
So I kind of put on a medicalhat and lens and said what are
(21:21):
some of the parallels betweenJuneteenth and health equity?
We wanted equality fortreatment for those that were
undergoing emancipation and thatwas a challenge just to get to
that point and also to get thosethat were enslaved in Texas
made aware of it.
There are challenges to scienceright now and challenges to
(21:45):
scientific dogma that we'retrying to do as well to make
sure people are able to gettheir health needs met, and our
current administration issometimes making that a little
harder.
So I spent that eveningdiscussing that during the PBS
event.
And then this past Saturday wehad our Unity Freedom 5K run,
where I tried to then connectheart health and brain health
(22:06):
together, because if yourheart's not healthy, your brain
will eventually undergo declineat a more rapid rate if you
don't keep your vessels and yourheart healthy.
So it was a great event.
We had over 60 people, somepeople signing up just that day
uh, great refreshments, prizes,a lot of first timers for a 5k
uh, many people.
You know, the best thing I canhear is oh, this was so much fun
(22:29):
, I want to do it again andthat's what I want.
I want, I want my blackcommunity active, moving, active
(22:49):
, eating healthy, and often I'mtrying to give tips on nutrition
and cardiovascular fitness thatwe can make easy and keep
ourselves accountable forregularly big events.
I would say.
August 16th we have aback-to-school mental health
that's going to occur atSorenson Unity Center in Salt
Lake City and that's going to bea morning to sort of early
afternoon event where parentsand children middle school and
high school can come togetherwith our team of mental health
therapists and they're going togo through a set of
(23:12):
presentations and breakoutgroups on how to overcome some
of these fears and anxiety thateven our children are having,
given the current politicalunrest going on.
You know people feeling thatfamilies are going to be broken
up because of ice raids andcivil liberties that people are
feeling they're going to beencroached on, especially when
it comes to just your FirstAmendment rights and your right
(23:35):
to protest.
That's affecting our studentsand we want to be able to teach
coping strategy, how to havethat tough conversation with
your child so it doesn't lead tountreated or developing anxiety
or depression with a child,because we're, I think, number
four for suicide for children inour nation, taking our lives,
(23:57):
so it's a real problem here inUtah.
We at Mental Wellness Allianceare going to work to try to
equip parents and teens andpreteens with the skills to have
these tough conversations.
So, yeah, that's August 16th,november and then October 25th
uh, november and then October25th, I believe.
Yeah, october 25th, it's anotherSaturday and that's, uh, one of
(24:20):
my biggest events of the year.
It's called medicine immersionday and it's something that
actually black men in whitecoats, the national organization
with their various chapters,does, but it's pretty much a
mini med school and residencytraining rotations that I do for
high school students and thosethat are out of high school that
are interested in becomingphysicians.
(24:41):
So I start off the day withblack doctors sharing their path
, their experience, how they gotinto medicine.
Then we break everybody up intogroups in the hospital.
They go to the inpatientservice, they go to the OB
service, they go to the ER, theygo to the surgical suite and
they all review cases anddiscuss patients.
Then they all come backtogether and they do for about
another 90 minutes hands-onspecialty care with training,
(25:03):
mannequins, learning how to doCPR suture closer, knowing how
to do a lumbar puncture of thespine on a child, knowing how to
use an ultrasound device tolook at a baby a lot of stuff
that we'll do in the afternoon.
And then they have lunch withblack doctors and allied
physicians that want to supportthese students to go into
medicine, and then a job fairafter that.
(25:24):
So it's a pretty big day.
So those are some of myupcoming events.
Grantley Martelly (25:28):
Yeah, you got .
You got a full calendar.
That's lots of stuff going onthere for the black physicians
of Utah.
So this program is about blackmen's health and the health of
men of color and, like you saidat the beginning, the focus of
(25:48):
this program also, like it wasfor you younger years about
trying to prevent unnecessarydeaths in the community.
Things that should be treated,things that should be handled at
an early stage if it can bedetected and tested for, can be
helped.
So what are some of the trendsthat you're seeing in this area
and that you're excited aboutand some that may have you
concerned?
Dr. Richard Ferguson (26:08):
For Black men itself.
Well, I think one thing thathas me a bit concerned is the
amount of misinformation that'soccurring when it comes to
health needs, and the reason Ibring that up is as someone
that's on the insurance side formy day job.
We pay attention to what theCDC and the Advisory Committee
(26:30):
for Immunization Practices isrecommending, because you have
to understand some of the socialdeterminants of health, unless
you have a certain job thatgives you access to insurance
you sometimes have and thenyou're hoping that the insurance
will cover preventativeservices such as vaccinations,
and so something that I'mworried about that's going to
(26:53):
impact not only children butadults as well, is when we have
folks that are coming in thatare skeptical of what's been
vetted science for so long on.
You know, if you have diabetes,heart disease or lung disease
or sleep apnea, you should getthe pneumonia shot shot.
(27:16):
Well, if we start having peoplethat now are going to be in
this advisory committee thatonce said this is what we
strongly recommend, now you'vebeen replaced it with people
that are going to questionsomething that has been saving
lives, preventinghospitalizations.
I don't know if people remember, but Bernie Mac the comedian.
He was in his 40s and died ofpneumonia.
Why did he die of pneumonia?
He probably didn't get off ofthe pneumonia shot, he probably
(27:38):
didn't totally need it, but evenI got the pneumonia shot and I
got it in my early 40s toprotect us from that.
So that's one thing that Ithink is going to affect not
only all Americans.
But you have to understandBlack men and, trusting to
receive care, they will oftendismiss some of their care
concerns.
(27:58):
So when someone is trying to dothe right thing, they may not
be offered or they may have tocome out of pocket now for
something that was coveredbecause of the myths and poor
science that the currentadministration is putting out.
So that's one fear.
But emerging trends when itcomes to Black men's health.
(28:20):
I've seen it with our mentalhealth team, where it's becoming
more community based and somemore culturally tailored
interventions.
Say, an example we're trying toget barbers to talk about
health topics while black menare accessible and in their
chair or in their space right,or barbers being a part of doing
(28:42):
a health fair event wherethey're like, hey, get your
haircut, get your vaccine at thesame time.
So I feel that you know thesebarbershop-like programs is one
recognizable way to have ahighly effective venue for
preventative care, and thiscould lead to more blood
(29:03):
pressure screenings, because wehave to remember that's a
leading cause of death for Blackmen and we don't need to
necessarily wait on doctors todo this.
We can do it with a nurse.
We can have many of thesecommunity-based initiatives for
screening care done with apharmacist, as I said, nurse,
nurse practitioners, pas.
(29:23):
So I feel like some of that, thegrassroots approach.
That's something I'm hopefulfor, that more of us are doing.
And I also feel that there's atrend for more digital health.
So I think there's an appcalled Mobile Men and there are
other telehealth offerings thatare empowering Black men to
manage their chronic conditionsremotely.
(29:44):
So that's one thing that I'mhopeful for.
And then there's been thisshift since George Floyd and
that fallout from it, that Blackmen's mental health forums, but
other forums where they'regoing to try to increase
research participation andhealth knowledge for Black men.
So, where I'm, of course, if wehad a study that was going on,
(30:07):
I would definitely try torecruit more African-American
men to be represented in moreresearch studies.
And then, lastly, I'd say,another trend is we're doing a
better job at destigmatizingseeking mental health care.
It's not seen as weakness, it'snot seen as something that you
can pray away.
(30:27):
But many Black men willstruggle with trauma either
abuse earlier in life, you know,seeming worsening anxieties
because of how they're treatedon the job or tasks they're
asked to do on the job, or justfear because of certain unrest
(30:50):
going on in various cities todaywhere you feel that you might
unfortunately be targeted as aBlack man by either the police
or heck, even by, say, an ICEraid at this time, just because
you happen to be Black or brown.
So that, to me, increases thisneed to have our mental health
coping skills knowledgeable sowe can.
(31:12):
Or more knowledge, moreknowledge for coping skills when
it comes to mental healthstressors.
So, uh, peer support networksare growing on social media for
black men, uh, and I feel thatwe are actively reframing that
it's okay to be vulnerable.
You know, vulnerability isactually strength and let's help
(31:33):
to dismantle this, thislongstanding stigma that we, as
black folks, don't need to seekmental healthcare.
Grantley Martelly (31:38):
Yeah, that's a good point and that's
something that is very relevantin our day and age.
You said something there that Iwanted to pick up on about, you
know, distinguishing the mentalhealth and this, this
traditional belief thatsometimes you know you can pray
the way.
If you just believe in God more, if you pray harder, it will go
(32:02):
away.
And the thing that I've beenpromoting and some of the social
workers for me promoting it'sokay to have a religious belief,
it's okay to pray, it's okay tobe a person of faith, but faith
doesn't exclude you fromgetting the help you need when
you need to get the help.
Dr. Richard Ferguson (32:21):
I often try to.
You know some of the pastorswhen I go and I speak in
churches here throughout, fromOgden to Salt Lake City.
One thing the pastors alwayssay is God gives us resources to
help us take care of ourselvesand some of what God gives us
are people that tell us how totake care of ourselves and some
of what God gives us are peoplethat tell us how to take care of
(32:41):
ourselves.
So he says religion's important, your faith, you know faith can
be healing.
But we have Dr Ferguson hereand his organization of docs, we
have his therapists that arealso God put here as a resource
to us.
So he says you would be a foolnot to take advantage of this
(33:02):
resource that God has put infront of you.
So it's great when it'srephrased that way, saying yes,
have your faith, but realizethis is a resource that God
would want you to have.
So it's helpful when I have achurch leader that is able to
echo those concerns because heclearly believes in it.
You know many faith leaders arecounselors in themselves.
(33:24):
They have some counselingbackground, but sometimes it has
such a faith core to it thatsome people that are turned off
and won't seek because there'soften in religion.
You know, depending on how youpractice, which faith you're a
part of, you're often judged.
There's a lot of judgment whenit comes to religions and how
(33:47):
you practice.
Which version of the Bible doyou use?
We've got some people that don'tsee the LDS faith as Christian
right Because of some of theirbelief structure not being the
dogma that say, like the HolyTrinity that Catholics have or
(34:07):
Protestants have in their beliefstructure.
You know they have planets andangels and almost seems like
mythology and almost seems likemythology that goes along with
some of the LDS.
That may not seem as oldChristian doctrine but the thing
is, does it bring them solace,does it bring them calm, does it
(34:32):
reduce emotional pain by havingthis belief structure?
Then I support it.
But just remember, you've gotprofessionals that have studied
how to resolve mental healthissues or concerns or how to
address an anxiety ordepression-based disorder.
So we need to make sure that weare readily seeking help and
(34:56):
knowing how to identify signs.
So that's a lot of what our ourmental health forms that we
have almost every week.
We have three uh every month insome lake county and weber
county uh.
That's free and available toblack men and women, uh, and
they just want to be communewith like-minded black men and
women and you have a therapistthere if you're going through
(35:18):
something and they can give yousome guidance.
We even offer to pay firstpeople that are underinsured or
completely uninsured therapysessions if they're in acute
crisis.
Grantley Martelly (35:30):
Yeah, and me.
I also, as an ordained minister.
I always tell people Jesus andtherapy goes hand in hand.
They're not necessarilyexclusive?
Yes, they're not.
They're not necessarilyexclusive.
Like you said, you have to knowwhen to take advantage of the
opportunities that God has givenus.
(35:50):
You also mentioned somethingabout the social determinants of
health.
Just talk a little bit aboutthat, just for our listeners,
who may be listening for thefirst time and that's a new term
to them.
Dr. Richard Ferguson (36:01):
Oh, sdohs, yeah.
So this is something that hasbeen out for a while.
I think the first time I sawthe little wheel that some
people if you just type inGoogle, social determinants of
health.
It's aspects outside ofhealthcare that actually
determine how healthy we arelikely to be.
So, for example, just out ofthe recent program last week,
(36:23):
when it comes to education, thehigher level degree that you're
able to attain, it shows astrong correlation.
And if you have a higher degreeyou're likely to live longer,
you're likely to have a higherincome.
You're also less likely todevelop dementia at an earlier
age because you're using yourbrain to stave off.
(36:45):
But also you've had access tolearn about more resources and
knowledge to know what ishealthy to do.
So if you're around, if you getthrough college and you're
around a bunch of peers and goneto classes sociology,
physiology and you understandwow, smoking is really bad.
That's why you'll have more andmore people that if you have a
(37:07):
graduate degree and higher, thelikelihood of them smoking is
far less than someone thatdidn't go to college at all.
So that's one aspect of howsocial determinants of health.
So that's education.
If you have a job and employedemployment, it often determines
what zip code you'll live in, ifyou're going to have be around
(37:29):
clean or dirty air, uh, often,by what you can have, housing
you can afford to live in.
So affordable housing andactually having food security.
So you need accessible food andhousing to probably, if you're
going to have a family, for yourchild it's going to have a
place to do their homework andto have a meal, because if you
don't have proper nutrition yourbrain won't function well.
(37:50):
Then you're not going to beable to finish your grades or
finish your classes and get goodgrades.
So, once again, education beingone of those factors of social
determinants of health.
And then health access itself.
So that either being insuranceallowing you access or you
happen to live in a communitywhere there's a dearth of
doctors, right Like Utah.
If you're in Salt Lake Countyyou're not doing too bad, but if
(38:14):
you're in Cache or you're inMontauk or Roosevelt, you don't
have great access to doctors orspecialists that can determine
how great your health outcomewill be.
So, once again, socialdeterminants of health.
And then, one thing that cansometimes be involved in there
is community resources that onecan have.
(38:38):
So are you near a grocery storeto be able to address that food
security.
So when I think about the wheel, we've got food, education,
health access, employment and Iwould almost say, like
legislation, there's some impacton laws that will determine how
(39:00):
healthy you can be, such as,for example, we as a state
sometimes make the news for thewrong reasons right, and we are
one of the states that in Utah,that we got rid of fluoride from
our water.
No dentist supports that.
There was never high enough.
That was causing toxicity tothe brain was never high enough
that was causing toxicity to thebrain.
Not high enough in our state.
(39:22):
But now in a couple yearsprobably not even a couple years
within probably one to threeyears, you'll start to see an
increased rate of caries inchildren Because we no longer
have fluoride in our water.
Go Utah.
Grantley Martelly (39:36):
Okay, that's great.
Thank you for that explanationand for bringing that out and
how people understand that.
Now the next question I havewas not one I told you about
before, but I think some of thepeople are going to ask this
because you said you work inhealthcare as a health physician
, medical officer, in insurance.
(39:58):
So just if you want to talkabout this a little bit or not,
many people are confused abouthow insurance companies make
decisions about health care, anddo you mind spending a minute
or two just trying to explainwhy that seems to be so
(40:18):
complicated to people and it'ssuch a foreign concept?
Dr. Richard Ferguson (40:23):
Yeah, yeah .
So I think we have tounderstand the history of why
health insurance is there tobegin with.
To begin with, it was before itis in its current state,
(40:46):
because there's profit behind it, and I think whenever there's
profit behind healthcare and itcan lead to you know, if you so,
there's one or two ways to lookat it, because a lot of things
were based on utilization whatdo we use?
What do you do?
Doing utilization right?
So it's often been some of thisbelief if you utilize more, if
(41:11):
you utilize services more, oryou tend to do more or more as a
doctor or perform moresurgeries, you get higher
compensation.
So the more you do, the moreyou get paid.
On the health insurance side, weare concerned about fraud,
waste, abuse, outliers of care.
There's this myth thatinsurance companies have pushed
(41:34):
for a while, even though I'mkind of talking against my own
industry here.
They use some really old andbiased studies saying we will
keep costs down because we'regoing to stop outliers in
duplication in care.
So, for example, we are goingto make sure that someone has,
(41:54):
if they have a priorauthorization, a request that
your doctor has to put inbecause a certain procedure
needs to be approved by theinsurance plan.
That's a prior auth.
It'll come to someone that'sprobably not as specialized as
possibly your doctor, but biggerinsurance plans often will have
someone that'll be reviewed bythe same specialty.
Let's say, for example, a lotof family medicine, internal
medicine.
Pediatricians are reviewingprior authorizations that will
(42:16):
come in and we will look at itsmedical necessity and then
sometimes the Center forMedicare and Medicaid Services,
cms, will put togetherguidelines that we will often
use when it comes to approvingservices.
But sometimes it will vary fromone insurance company to
(42:37):
another on what they'll approve.
A doc is always at the core ofmaking the decision on what we
will accept and we do makemodifications If we feel
something is too restrictive.
We'll remove that barrier of aprior authorization.
Which docs in the communityhospitals hate prior auths.
They dislike them.
(42:58):
But the reason they're there isit's a cost-controlling measure
so that we say, well, we don'twant this person to get this
test twice, so we put a priorauthorization there so we can
stop it from being requestedtwice.
We don't want someone to jumpto get an MRI of their knee
(43:23):
because they sprained their kneewhile hiking on a trail and we
don't have an exam that showswhat is it that they're trying
to image right, and they don'thave an exam that shows why
advanced imaging is warranted.
And then we would probably needto see well, many things can
get better with physical therapybefore you need to jump to an
MRI.
(43:43):
So that's why we'll say, hey,we're going to put a criteria
here that you have to meetbefore you get something that's
a little bit more expensive.
We'd rather pay for somethingthat's cheaper, that's proven to
work, before we go and justjump to advanced imaging.
Because if everybody gets anMRI for their knee or everyone
gets it for a sprained wrist,costs of care are going to
(44:03):
really go up.
So that's why some of thepurpose of health insurance
being there.
But it can be very confusing,especially when people are
denied care and they're tryingto understand why they're denied
.
And I think that's often thebigger misunderstanding that I
try to explain to not only myfellow providers but also the
(44:25):
greater community when it comesto advocating for their care.
Because there's a lot of thingsthat health insurance will
cover but many people aren'taware because they don't ask or
they assume if they had one planthat didn't, the next plan
won't cover.
So preventative services manyof those are covered.
But then people have to dealwith certain deductibles.
(44:49):
Right, how much do I have tospend and come out of pocket
before my insurance company willeven kick in that I'm paying
for every month Because there'sprofit in it?
Right, it's shared.
You know Obama was trying toaddress this with the ACA and
having a uniformed, universal oran attempt at universal or
(45:10):
universal health care, becausethe way it works well in other
developed nations is healthypeople paying to the system.
But you've got healthy peoplesaying, well, I'm not sick, why
do I want to pay for someoneelse that's sick?
So it's that community will, orthat community good to want to
do better.
As a nation, we're kind of verycapitalist, and being
(45:30):
capitalist is often fairlyselfish.
It goes against.
You know, it's hard to havecapitalism and then have great
health care at the same time Oneof them is going to get hurt.
So you either spend more oncare, thus you make less money,
or you spend less on care andyou make more money.
Okay.
Grantley Martelly (45:51):
Well, that's a good introductory discussion.
I think I need to do an episodespecifically on health care and
insurance.
Oh yeah, Insurance on healthcare and insurance.
It's very confusing.
Dr. Richard Fergu (46:01):
Intentionally .
So I want to say Intentionallyso, intentionally, so.
Grantley Martelly (46:09):
Well, how do we improve health outcomes for
people of color?
Dr. Richard Ferguson (46:12):
Oh, I think sometimes one way to start
is go get seen, for if youhaven't been seen, if you're 35
or 40 year old man, let's juststart there.
Hey, 25 year old man, don'twait until you're sick to get
(46:32):
seen.
That year no-transcript, andthen there's less options to
(47:08):
treat by the time you get seen.
So one thing I think that willimprove healthcare outcome is go
to the doctor at least once ayear, even though you're not
sick.
Second I would say is don't goto a visit by yourself.
Put a friend on speakerphone,bring a family member, bring a
friend, call a friend.
Because if you, if you'resomeone, as many black folks,
(47:30):
they go long gaps in betweenseeing a doctor and then the doc
probably doesn't have a lot ofgood news.
So that brings up a lot of fearand people they shut down, they
don't want to listen, and thenwhen the doctor's just giving
you a piece of paper, it's likewell then, follow these.
You're still stuck on himpossibly dropping a precancerous
(47:52):
lesion, and that scared you andyou didn't ask any more
questions.
You just sort of nod your headand then you leave.
You didn't ask any morequestions, you just sort of nod
your head and then you leave andyou've got more questions and
now you're spending time thenext day trying to call the
doctor's office after you werejust there.
But if you have someone elsethat can listen in for you, as I
do for my own mother in Orlandowhen she goes to her meeting,
(48:15):
she puts me on speaker and Ilisten to the whole conversation
and I go, mom, is thereanything you're worried about?
Is there anything we can dothis with our friends and
families?
That's one thing I think will.
That's the second thing I thinkthat will help prove healthcare
outcomes for black folks.
Third is I would try to go toyour local public health
(48:35):
department's websites.
They often have tons of tips ofinformation that you should be
following recipes for hearthealth, recipes for diabetes,
recipes, or how to know forsigns of elevated blood pressure
, tips on how you can loseweight so you can address your
blood pressure.
You can address your bloodpressure.
(48:56):
So I would look at your localpublic health, state or city's
page.
And then probably the fourththing to try to improve
healthcare outcomes is oh man,if you're able to try to get at
least 150 minutes a week ofvigorous physical activity Brisk
(49:19):
, walking, running, swimming,biking, just upper body
weightlifting.
You don't need to belong to agym to be healthy.
I'll put it that way there's alot we can do in the comfort of
our home, outside in the street,to just get a heart rate up,
(49:39):
because sedentary is killing us.
75% of the US is overweight.
Majority of African Americans,particularly African American
women, are like 54% or obese.
So obesity is leading to tonsof other secondary health
conditions, such as cancers.
It can predispose you tocertain cancers because it just
(50:02):
causes so much inflammation inyour body and your cells just
keep turning over and turningover and they're going to make
more mistakes.
So let's try to do more that wecan bring into our control,
that's with nutrition, trying toexercise regularly and try to
go to the doctor at least once ayear.
Don't wait until it hurts.
Grantley Martelly (50:21):
Those are some great action points that
our listeners can follow.
Are there any other topics thatyou wanted to touch on that we
didn't touch on?
Dr. Richard Ferguson (50:29):
Oh, wow.
I don't want people to give uphope.
There are professionalsocieties, my organization being
one American Academy ofPediatrics, the American Academy
of Family Physicians, americanCollege of Obstetrics and
(50:50):
Gynecology.
We are still strongly believingin science and meeting the
healthcare needs and trying toaddress and providing equitable
care, either through lobbying,either through our various roles
in medicine.
I'm trying to do it with someof my access to academic
(51:12):
medicine when it comes toteaching medical students so
that the next generationunderstands bias in medicine,
understands how to get people toadvocate for themselves when
they're seeking care.
So don't lose hope.
There are docs on the rightside that are going to be on the
right side of history as we getthrough some of this.
What appears to be rolling backof some of the great strides we
(51:36):
as a nation have made as beinga leader in science and
technology, and there's fearsthat we're going to no longer be
a leader and that's going to betaken over in the next year or
two.
So don't give up.
There are those of us in thenation here that want all of us
to be healthy.
Grantley Martelly (51:56):
Thank you very much and for our listeners
and the Black Physicians of Utahand you can also reach Dr
Ferguson there at B-P-O-U B asin boy, p as in physician, o as
in of U as in Utah, b-p-o-uorg,and there's lots of information
(52:17):
there.
I've been on your site lookingat some of the information you
have there.
So I want to encourage ourlisteners if you want to reach
out to Dr Ferguson, reach out tohim at bpouorg or you can send
us an email here atAboveTheNoise24 at gmailcom and
we can forward that as well.
Dr. Richard Ferguson (52:37):
We have an Instagram and YouTube page and
LinkedIn.
We're all over.
We have a TikTok too.
Grantley Martelly (52:44):
You've got it all.
They're all under BPOU?
Dr. Richard Ferguson (52:48):
Just type in Black Physicians of Utah.
There's only one of us underTikTok, instagram, linkedin.
Give us a follow.
We put out health educationvideos pretty much every week
and we have an event.
If you're local to utah, uh,there's.
There's a lot going on herethat we do to support our
community well.
Grantley Martelly (53:06):
Thank you very much, and I want to thank
my nephew, uh junior from umTrident Concierge in Salt Lake
there, who introduced you and Ito each other.
I look forward to continuingconversations with you and
continuing to grow ourfriendship.
Thanks for joining us today.
Dr. Richard Ferguson (53:23):
No, my pleasure.
Next, health insurance.
Grantley Martelly (53:26):
Yeah, next I'll bring health insurance.
Write us at realhealthblackmenat gmailcom.
Realhealthblackmen at gmailcom.
Real Health Black Men atgmailcom.
To support this podcast, go tobuymeacoffeecom forward.
(53:47):
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Buymeacoffeecom /Real HealthBlack Men and to become a
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This is the Real Health Black Men podcast,
where we empower men to takecontrol of their health.
We provide vital informationand build community support.
Join us as we discusseverything from major health
challenges to mental wellness tophysical fitness.
So if you're ready to level upyour health and your life,
you're in the right place.
(00:31):
Let's get started.
So welcome back to Real HealthBlack Men Podcast, and today my
guest is Dr Richard Ferguson ofthe Black Physicians of Utah.
(00:52):
He's a board certified infamily practice.
He's also practiced emergencymedicine and has served as a
brigade surgeon in the UnitedStates Army.
He's going to tell us moreabout himself as we get into it,
but Dr Ferguson is also now theChief Medical Officer at Health
Choice of Utah.
So welcome, Dr Ferguson, to ourpodcast.
Dr. Richard Ferguson (01:13):
Thank you for having me here.
I'm excited for our discussion.
Grantley Martelly (01:16):
I'm excited too.
So let's take a couple ofminutes to introduce yourself.
Tell us a little bit of thingsabout you that you think our
audience might be interested in,and then we'll get into the
discussion.
Dr. Richard Ferguson (01:25):
Yeah, I think probably the easiest way
is I'm a Washington DC nativeborn and raised, did most of
pretty much all of my schoolingthere and then went off to do
college or finish college atNorthwestern out in north of
Chicago and then did a littlebit of stint in Japan as I
(01:47):
started on my path to join themilitary.
Actually, I commissioned as ayoung second lieutenant when I
was in Japan right aftergraduating in undergrad in
genetics and then getting intomed school.
A lot of my passion of going tomedicine has been inspired
because of what's happened in myfamily.
I think that many Blackfamilies have experienced where
(02:09):
there was often preventablediseases or preventable
conditions.
That was a lot of my primarymotivation but also my strong
sense of service to my family.
My father was prior Navy, I hadprior Force and my uncles and
Navy and Army and my uncle soservice being a DC Beltway or, I
(02:30):
guess, a child of the Beltway,it seemed quite normal for me to
join the service but also topursue medicine because of some
of the institutions thatinfluenced me during my youth in
Washington DC.
So, to kind of sum that up, Ispent seven years active duty
(02:51):
doing my training and actuallymy initial residency was
actually in ophthalmology.
I did that for about a year anda half before I separated and
then finished in family medicineand then eventually just
practiced emergency medicine forthe last 13 years now.
And then my day job is inhealth insurance, which I'm
trying to have a larger impacton our health system and try to
(03:16):
put less barriers to care whenit comes to access, because
insurance can definitely besometimes part of that barrier.
And then I started BlackPhysicians of Utah because I
realized that some of the wayswe can best address health
equity for black andmarginalized groups throughout
our nation is really trying toget more doctors that look like
(03:37):
myself in medicine.
And that's probably me a littlebit in a nutshell.
Grantley Martelly (03:42):
Okay, well, that's a good introduction.
So you also served in themilitary as a military surgeon?
You touched on that.
Tell us a little bit in anutshell.
Okay, well, that's a goodintroduction.
So you also served in themilitary as a military surgeon?
You touched on that.
Tell us a little bit about whatthat was like and what that
entails.
Dr. Richard Ferguson (03:52):
So I think sometimes when we use the term
surgeon it means somethingdifferent in role in the
military than it does sometimeswhen civilians refer to surgeon.
So I initially was a battalionsurgeon when I was in Iraq and
when I was there for that was mylongest deployment 15 months.
(04:15):
A battalion is just usually aunit that's 900 to up to about
2000 troops that you will bemanaging the care for and
usually you have like a PAtroops that you will be managing
to care for and usually youhave like a PA, several medics
that will be under my sort ofmedical team and I'm part of the
senior leadership that would bealong with that of the colonel
(04:35):
and the executive officer.
That's part of that largerbattalion and so it's based on.
So surgeon really in the Army,depending on your residency,
training status is a title thatjust goes to a physician that's
in a deployable unit and as theunit gets bigger it becomes
(04:58):
brigade surgeon.
So now it's 5,000 or more andyou're the chief doctor for
those number of folks.
But they give you the surgeontitle, which often doesn't mean
I'm operating, it just means I'mthe head physician for that
organization size.
So then the next after that isdivision surgeon, and so that's
several thousands, that's tensof thousands.
(05:19):
That would be a part of that,so several brigades that make up
a division Anyhow.
But during my time it was reallyjust maintaining, doing
preventative care and makingsure that many of my soldiers
got off the specialist.
If they need them, I wouldtreat them or supervise my PAs.
That would be treating many ofmy soldiers.
That would either have beenwhen we were in country or
(05:44):
excuse me, not in country, whenwe were based in the US versus
when we were forward deployed.
I would be the chief, almostkind of medical officer role for
that unit.
Usually I would have then amore senior doc that I could go
and ask something to, such as abrigade surgeon.
But at the battalion level itwas just often me and the
(06:06):
colonel, who's non-medical, andmy PA that I would work along
with taking care of acute needs,chronic care and often trauma
and death that would occur tosoldiers in and out of the US.
Grantley Martelly (06:21):
Okay, you said in your short bio that that
had a profound effect on yourlife.
What do you mean by that?
Dr. Richard Ferguson (06:30):
Well, I think it probably has led to me
wanting to do a lot ofhumanitarian care, because I was
part of General Petraeus'hearts and minds, part of his
underlying mission to try to nothave America seen seen as so
much our troops seen as an enemyuh, between 2007 to like 2010,
(06:54):
I would say, when we uh, when alot of our servicemen were there
, and so he would use some ofthe medical components to try to
build this bridge so thatsmaller militias would pretty
much rat on the insurgents thatwould set bombs and be
disruptors in our area ofoperation in Iraq and often
(07:19):
those red zones.
So we would try to befriendsome of the sheiks, local sheiks
and local community leaders byproviding medical care.
So that's part of the heartsand minds and that has had a
profound impact.
And that's once I exited theArmy.
I then would pursue to leadmedical missions or be a part of
(07:39):
a medical mission in formerwar-torn areas or underserved
regions of the world, or alsowhen just responding to
humanitarian disasters.
So I went to take care ofHaitians after the earthquake.
I actually had an opportunityto go to Nepal after their big
earthquake in 2015.
(08:00):
But the way that things wereoccurring at that time I didn't
go because the troop leader said, or the leader of the mission
actually said, you can come, butyou know we really need
somebody that knows how to do.
You know that's a craneoperator because we don't really
need more doctors on the ground.
And he says and I don't know,because of the amount of medical
(08:20):
supplies coming in, we can'treally guarantee that you can
leave in two weeks to get backto work.
So I ended up not going to thatdisaster but I've been able to
be a part of.
You know, there's unfortunatelya lot of migration that's
occurring in North Africa, inthe Middle East, because of so
much unrest and there's a lot ofdisplacement and so a lot of
(08:41):
people aren't getting their careneeds met, got a lot of
preventable diseases, dysentery,that there's just not enough
healthcare providers and theresome of them are even in
undocumented UN camps, right?
So who takes care of peoplethat the UN doesn't really have
visibility of?
And so that's where I wouldjoin certain aid teams to go and
(09:03):
provide care for seven to 10days.
So that probably is the longestimpact from my time in service.
And but that community servicehas also birthed.
You know it was able to birthBPU and wanting to continue to
give back and not have to findan organization to do that with,
I just created my own.
Grantley Martelly (09:29):
Well, let's get into talking about Black
Physicians of Utah.
You said you created it.
Tell us a little bit more abouthow you got to that point and
your vision and your focus, andwhat are some of the major
projects you might be working onin that area.
Dr. Richard Ferguson (09:38):
I would say, well, my vision for wanting
to do it.
It started with another uhorganization doing we're working
, you know, often towards thesame means and it's called black
men in white coats, and theymade a movie called black men in
white coats that was shining alight on the deficit and the,
(10:03):
you know, very slow, non-growingnumbers of black male
physicians in America, and someof that being that, you know, a
black male, 18 to 45 has ahigher likelihood of being
incarcerated instead of being ina position wearing a white coat
, like myself, you know,complaining, medical training,
(10:25):
completing residency.
There's so many forces fromthis vestiges of prior
oppression to just stereotypesof fear and anxiety surrounding
black men in America, and so yougot some of those things there
that make it harder for us toreally enter this field and just
sometimes it's just rolemodeling and examples by other
(10:48):
Black men, so that you know,those of us that are here can
definitely pull several brothersup to show them or get them to
go onto this path, and it hasbeen shown in several studies
that people are more likelyblack folks particularly are
more likely to be more compliant, feel more respected, their
(11:09):
concerns believed, if they'rereceiving care from someone that
has a similar background orracial aspect as them, and so I
realized that we could improvethe care, quality of care,
access to care for many of thosein the Black community and also
outside of the Black community.
I mean, it's actually come outto say if you have a physician
(11:31):
of color, you're likely toreceive a higher chance of
culturally competent care andget more of your questions
answered, less likely to bedismissed Because there might be
a shared struggle or sense ofthat in the room.
And, uh, when you're having aprovider that's coming from a
marginalized group and that'swhat bpl you wanted to do or has
(11:51):
been doing, uh, it was actuallya small world.
I ran into one of our menteesyesterday.
He was with his family, uh, inthe uh group parking lot of
Smith's yesterday and he had todecide between University of
Utah School of Medicine andMorehouse and he was really
(12:14):
struggling with that when welast spoke at the end of March.
But the thing is he's in aposition that he has an option
to choose which med school to goto, and so I was so happy and
his mom was so thankful becausewe did mock interview prep for
him.
We did quite a bit of prephelped him with his personal
statement application, and hedid well, and the only problem,
(12:34):
though, is I think he might bethe only Black student in this
incoming year out of 125 for theleading med school in the state
.
So there's a lot of work thatmy institution has to do or,
excuse me, university of Utahhas to do, but it's going to
take sort of external partnerslike myself, I think, to try to
(12:55):
help with that.
Grantley Martelly (12:56):
Okay, so he's choosing to go to University of
Utah over Morehouse.
I guess that's what you'resaying.
Yeah, yeah, okay.
Dr. Richard Ferguson (13:04):
So let's talk yeah, go on sir.
Grantley Martelly (13:06):
So let's talk about Black physicians in Utah.
Are there many Black physiciansin Utah, or maybe physicians of
color?
I'm sure that you have manypeople in your organization who
are not necessarily Black.
Dr. Richard Ferguson (13:19):
So I look at it this way.
So I wouldn't use the term many, but we also have to look
greater at Utah.
So just in regards to doctorsper capita, I think we're 44th
in the nation of number of,let's say, just use primary care
(13:39):
providers.
I think there's one primarycare provider.
I have to look at our ratio.
I want to say it's one primarycare provider per patient 700
people here in Utah, which isn'ta great ratio and so.
(14:00):
But on top of that, we don'thave enough primary care
physicians in the state, so itleads to a very long wait time.
And then, on top of that, howmany of them have gone through
training so that they practiceless bias when they're providing
care?
So then you have that makes thenumber even smaller.
So right now, not includingresidents, there's about 30
(14:23):
black physicians that aremembers of my organization.
There are a handful, three orfour, I would say about three
that don't align with my mission.
That's probably a separatediscussion.
I think it's sometimes that itmay be with my leadership style.
It may be, hey, I'm busy or I'mcontent with what I give to the
(14:45):
black community, don't need tobe part of an organization,
whatever it may be.
But there's about 30 andthere's probably, I think, about
10 to 12 that are in residencyor fellowship training that are
Black in Utah.
Grantley Martelly (15:01):
Yeah, I lived in Utah for 30 years so I
didn't run into many Blackphysicians in Utah.
We had good medical carebecause of the university and um
there and both utah state anduniversity of utah, but not many
, not many black physicians thatI that I ran into there when I
(15:25):
was here, uh, when I wastraining here, I saw just the
resident that was ahead of me.
Her name was Dr.
Erica Baden, who's now anactive part of my group she's
actually our vice president forBPLU and Dr Jessica Jones, and
that was about it.
And then for years when I wasjust doing traveling emergency
(15:50):
medicine, I would always comeback and I'm like, wow, I know
there's got to be more of us.
So I said, well, let me createa home, let me create an
organization that people canbelong to, black doctors can
belong to, maybe a providerdirectory.
Now, mind you, much of thepopulation can't, don't really
(16:20):
have reasons to see these blackdoctors because they're all
highly subspecialized.
So you know, we have a blackcardiologist that's down in
Southern Utah, in St George.
He's an interventionalcardiologist.
So unless you're getting astent placed in your heart or
needing his involvement whenyou're having a bypass or after
(16:41):
you receive your bypass, orgetting significant medication
management after a heart attack,you're not going to just go and
see him.
We have another cardiologistthat's local, that's at the?
U, but she specializes as acardiologist for heart
transplants.
So you know your general mill.
(17:02):
I want to see a blackcardiologist.
You just can't easily see her.
We have two black obs, but oneof them is only for high risk.
So if you're not high risk,you're not going to be able to
see her, right.
So we have all these high.
So if we were larger, if therewas more of us, we'd have more.
Those were generally accessibleto the public more
(17:24):
pediatricians, more family docs,internal medicine but it takes
many years to grow a doc andalso they have to feel supported
.
In Utah and that's the biggerthing about BPU, we're a support
system for Black physiciansbecause we know they're going to
face some form ofmicroaggressions and racism.
It won't be the ugly racism of,say, the Southeast, but it's
(17:46):
here.
Yeah, I know that from living there.
Dr. Richard Ferguson (17:53):
It's kind of that nice in your face.
Grantley Martelly (17:55):
racism- yeah, nice in your face, racism.
Dr. Richard Ferguson (17:58):
Yeah, it's like you know things.
An example would be, or thiswould be, a racial
microaggression.
Wow, you speak really well fora fill in the blank, or that was
really well articulated.
I was a bit surprised.
Hmm Is that a compliment,finding it as an insult.
Grantley Martelly (18:18):
Yeah, we run into a lot, lots of that.
Let's talk about the upcomingevents and projects that you may
have, but what are some of thethings that your organization is
doing?
Dr. Richard Ferguson (18:30):
Wow, I mean, can I give a quick recap
of what we did for Juneteenthweek?
Grantley Martelly (18:34):
Yeah, that'd be a great start, yeah.
Dr. Richard Ferguson (18:36):
Yeah, so we were very busy, but once
again, my soul, my heart, wasfull because of what I was able
to convey and share.
So June not only it beingcontaining Father's Day and also
Juneteenth our overarchingtheme that we as BPLU have on
our homepage, that we send outour newsletter, was on brain
(19:00):
health.
And then part of brain healthis not so much addressing a
vascular issue, say, like stroke, but it's really addressing
early signs of cognitive declinethat can be evidence of
dementia that we feel.
Many that are Black, latinocommunities.
We often are seeking help forour loved ones that may be
experiencing early cognitivedecline and not getting them
(19:23):
screened sooner so they havemore opportunity to delay the
disease process that's leadingto the cognitive decline.
Right, there's new treatmentsnow that are for Alzheimer's
that if you don't catch it, it'sand it only can be provided at
a certain stage.
So, but if you're not screened,how will someone know the stage
?
And then, so we did an, we didan event last Wednesday, day
(19:46):
before Juneteenth.
That was Alzheimer's, you knowwhat you need to know.
And we had a blackgerontologist that's.
Our name was Donell Hubbard,who is the regional director for
Alzheimer's Association for theMountain West.
So she came out.
We also had a local agingservices specialized licensed
(20:10):
clinical social worker.
Actually, both backgrounds arelicensed clinical social workers
, but they were great.
I went on there.
We had a stage.
It was in downtown Salt LakeCity.
We had about 26 peopleregistered for the event.
Highly informative.
A lot of people were gettingsome answers, sharing personal
stories about how the impact toa caretaker is that we, you know
(20:34):
, we sometimes don't realize.
Uh, it's happening whensomeone's going through the
development or worsening ofdementia.
So we talked about what it is,how dementia varies from actual
aging.
Uh, and then what resourcesthat people have locally.
And then the next day, uh, wewent on to have our uheteenth
(20:56):
event.
That was at PBS, with Roots andCulture hosts Lonzo Liggins and
I think his name is Darren, butthey're the hosts of a local
show on PBS here in Utah calledRoots and Culture Roots, race
and Culture, and we discussedwhat was the significance of
Juneteenth.
So I kind of put on a medicalhat and lens and said what are
(21:21):
some of the parallels betweenJuneteenth and health equity?
We wanted equality fortreatment for those that were
undergoing emancipation and thatwas a challenge just to get to
that point and also to get thosethat were enslaved in Texas
made aware of it.
There are challenges to scienceright now and challenges to
(21:45):
scientific dogma that we'retrying to do as well to make
sure people are able to gettheir health needs met, and our
current administration issometimes making that a little
harder.
So I spent that eveningdiscussing that during the PBS
event.
And then this past Saturday wehad our Unity Freedom 5K run,
where I tried to then connectheart health and brain health
(22:06):
together, because if yourheart's not healthy, your brain
will eventually undergo declineat a more rapid rate if you
don't keep your vessels and yourheart healthy.
So it was a great event.
We had over 60 people, somepeople signing up just that day
uh, great refreshments, prizes,a lot of first timers for a 5k
uh, many people.
You know, the best thing I canhear is oh, this was so much fun
(22:29):
, I want to do it again andthat's what I want.
I want, I want my blackcommunity active, moving, active
(22:49):
, eating healthy, and often I'mtrying to give tips on nutrition
and cardiovascular fitness thatwe can make easy and keep
ourselves accountable forregularly big events.
I would say.
August 16th we have aback-to-school mental health
that's going to occur atSorenson Unity Center in Salt
Lake City and that's going to bea morning to sort of early
afternoon event where parentsand children middle school and
high school can come togetherwith our team of mental health
therapists and they're going togo through a set of
(23:12):
presentations and breakoutgroups on how to overcome some
of these fears and anxiety thateven our children are having,
given the current politicalunrest going on.
You know people feeling thatfamilies are going to be broken
up because of ice raids andcivil liberties that people are
feeling they're going to beencroached on, especially when
it comes to just your FirstAmendment rights and your right
(23:35):
to protest.
That's affecting our studentsand we want to be able to teach
coping strategy, how to havethat tough conversation with
your child so it doesn't lead tountreated or developing anxiety
or depression with a child,because we're, I think, number
four for suicide for children inour nation, taking our lives,
(23:57):
so it's a real problem here inUtah.
We at Mental Wellness Allianceare going to work to try to
equip parents and teens andpreteens with the skills to have
these tough conversations.
So, yeah, that's August 16th,november and then October 25th
uh, november and then October25th, I believe.
Yeah, october 25th, it's anotherSaturday and that's, uh, one of
(24:20):
my biggest events of the year.
It's called medicine immersionday and it's something that
actually black men in whitecoats, the national organization
with their various chapters,does, but it's pretty much a
mini med school and residencytraining rotations that I do for
high school students and thosethat are out of high school that
are interested in becomingphysicians.
(24:41):
So I start off the day withblack doctors sharing their path
, their experience, how they gotinto medicine.
Then we break everybody up intogroups in the hospital.
They go to the inpatientservice, they go to the OB
service, they go to the ER, theygo to the surgical suite and
they all review cases anddiscuss patients.
Then they all come backtogether and they do for about
another 90 minutes hands-onspecialty care with training,
(25:03):
mannequins, learning how to doCPR suture closer, knowing how
to do a lumbar puncture of thespine on a child, knowing how to
use an ultrasound device tolook at a baby a lot of stuff
that we'll do in the afternoon.
And then they have lunch withblack doctors and allied
physicians that want to supportthese students to go into
medicine, and then a job fairafter that.
(25:24):
So it's a pretty big day.
So those are some of myupcoming events.
Grantley Martelly (25:28):
Yeah, you got .
You got a full calendar.
That's lots of stuff going onthere for the black physicians
of Utah.
So this program is about blackmen's health and the health of
men of color and, like you saidat the beginning, the focus of
(25:48):
this program also, like it wasfor you younger years about
trying to prevent unnecessarydeaths in the community.
Things that should be treated,things that should be handled at
an early stage if it can bedetected and tested for, can be
helped.
So what are some of the trendsthat you're seeing in this area
and that you're excited aboutand some that may have you
concerned?
Dr. Richard Ferguson (26:08):
For Black men itself.
Well, I think one thing thathas me a bit concerned is the
amount of misinformation that'soccurring when it comes to
health needs, and the reason Ibring that up is as someone
that's on the insurance side formy day job.
We pay attention to what theCDC and the Advisory Committee
(26:30):
for Immunization Practices isrecommending, because you have
to understand some of the socialdeterminants of health, unless
you have a certain job thatgives you access to insurance
you sometimes have and thenyou're hoping that the insurance
will cover preventativeservices such as vaccinations,
and so something that I'mworried about that's going to
(26:53):
impact not only children butadults as well, is when we have
folks that are coming in thatare skeptical of what's been
vetted science for so long on.
You know, if you have diabetes,heart disease or lung disease
or sleep apnea, you should getthe pneumonia shot shot.
(27:16):
Well, if we start having peoplethat now are going to be in
this advisory committee thatonce said this is what we
strongly recommend, now you'vebeen replaced it with people
that are going to questionsomething that has been saving
lives, preventinghospitalizations.
I don't know if people remember, but Bernie Mac the comedian.
He was in his 40s and died ofpneumonia.
Why did he die of pneumonia?
He probably didn't get off ofthe pneumonia shot, he probably
(27:38):
didn't totally need it, but evenI got the pneumonia shot and I
got it in my early 40s toprotect us from that.
So that's one thing that Ithink is going to affect not
only all Americans.
But you have to understandBlack men and, trusting to
receive care, they will oftendismiss some of their care
concerns.
(27:58):
So when someone is trying to dothe right thing, they may not
be offered or they may have tocome out of pocket now for
something that was coveredbecause of the myths and poor
science that the currentadministration is putting out.
So that's one fear.
But emerging trends when itcomes to Black men's health.
(28:20):
I've seen it with our mentalhealth team, where it's becoming
more community based and somemore culturally tailored
interventions.
Say, an example we're trying toget barbers to talk about
health topics while black menare accessible and in their
chair or in their space right,or barbers being a part of doing
(28:42):
a health fair event wherethey're like, hey, get your
haircut, get your vaccine at thesame time.
So I feel that you know thesebarbershop-like programs is one
recognizable way to have ahighly effective venue for
preventative care, and thiscould lead to more blood
(29:03):
pressure screenings, because wehave to remember that's a
leading cause of death for Blackmen and we don't need to
necessarily wait on doctors todo this.
We can do it with a nurse.
We can have many of thesecommunity-based initiatives for
screening care done with apharmacist, as I said, nurse,
nurse practitioners, pas.
(29:23):
So I feel like some of that, thegrassroots approach.
That's something I'm hopefulfor, that more of us are doing.
And I also feel that there's atrend for more digital health.
So I think there's an appcalled Mobile Men and there are
other telehealth offerings thatare empowering Black men to
manage their chronic conditionsremotely.
(29:44):
So that's one thing that I'mhopeful for.
And then there's been thisshift since George Floyd and
that fallout from it, that Blackmen's mental health forums, but
other forums where they'regoing to try to increase
research participation andhealth knowledge for Black men.
So, where I'm, of course, if wehad a study that was going on,
(30:07):
I would definitely try torecruit more African-American
men to be represented in moreresearch studies.
And then, lastly, I'd say,another trend is we're doing a
better job at destigmatizingseeking mental health care.
It's not seen as weakness, it'snot seen as something that you
can pray away.
(30:27):
But many Black men willstruggle with trauma either
abuse earlier in life, you know,seeming worsening anxieties
because of how they're treatedon the job or tasks they're
asked to do on the job, or justfear because of certain unrest
(30:50):
going on in various cities todaywhere you feel that you might
unfortunately be targeted as aBlack man by either the police
or heck, even by, say, an ICEraid at this time, just because
you happen to be Black or brown.
So that, to me, increases thisneed to have our mental health
coping skills knowledgeable sowe can.
(31:12):
Or more knowledge, moreknowledge for coping skills when
it comes to mental healthstressors.
So, uh, peer support networksare growing on social media for
black men, uh, and I feel thatwe are actively reframing that
it's okay to be vulnerable.
You know, vulnerability isactually strength and let's help
(31:33):
to dismantle this, thislongstanding stigma that we, as
black folks, don't need to seekmental healthcare.
Grantley Martelly (31:38):
Yeah, that's a good point and that's
something that is very relevantin our day and age.
You said something there that Iwanted to pick up on about, you
know, distinguishing the mentalhealth and this, this
traditional belief thatsometimes you know you can pray
the way.
If you just believe in God more, if you pray harder, it will go
(32:02):
away.
And the thing that I've beenpromoting and some of the social
workers for me promoting it'sokay to have a religious belief,
it's okay to pray, it's okay tobe a person of faith, but faith
doesn't exclude you fromgetting the help you need when
you need to get the help.
Dr. Richard Ferguson (32:21):
I often try to.
You know some of the pastorswhen I go and I speak in
churches here throughout, fromOgden to Salt Lake City.
One thing the pastors alwayssay is God gives us resources to
help us take care of ourselvesand some of what God gives us
are people that tell us how totake care of ourselves and some
of what God gives us are peoplethat tell us how to take care of
(32:41):
ourselves.
So he says religion's important, your faith, you know faith can
be healing.
But we have Dr Ferguson hereand his organization of docs, we
have his therapists that arealso God put here as a resource
to us.
So he says you would be a foolnot to take advantage of this
(33:02):
resource that God has put infront of you.
So it's great when it'srephrased that way, saying yes,
have your faith, but realizethis is a resource that God
would want you to have.
So it's helpful when I have achurch leader that is able to
echo those concerns because heclearly believes in it.
You know many faith leaders arecounselors in themselves.
(33:24):
They have some counselingbackground, but sometimes it has
such a faith core to it thatsome people that are turned off
and won't seek because there'soften in religion.
You know, depending on how youpractice, which faith you're a
part of, you're often judged.
There's a lot of judgment whenit comes to religions and how
(33:47):
you practice.
Which version of the Bible doyou use?
We've got some people that don'tsee the LDS faith as Christian
right Because of some of theirbelief structure not being the
dogma that say, like the HolyTrinity that Catholics have or
(34:07):
Protestants have in their beliefstructure.
You know they have planets andangels and almost seems like
mythology and almost seems likemythology that goes along with
some of the LDS.
That may not seem as oldChristian doctrine but the thing
is, does it bring them solace,does it bring them calm, does it
(34:32):
reduce emotional pain by havingthis belief structure?
Then I support it.
But just remember, you've gotprofessionals that have studied
how to resolve mental healthissues or concerns or how to
address an anxiety ordepression-based disorder.
So we need to make sure that weare readily seeking help and
(34:56):
knowing how to identify signs.
So that's a lot of what our ourmental health forms that we
have almost every week.
We have three uh every month insome lake county and weber
county uh.
That's free and available toblack men and women, uh, and
they just want to be communewith like-minded black men and
women and you have a therapistthere if you're going through
(35:18):
something and they can give yousome guidance.
We even offer to pay firstpeople that are underinsured or
completely uninsured therapysessions if they're in acute
crisis.
Grantley Martelly (35:30):
Yeah, and me.
I also, as an ordained minister.
I always tell people Jesus andtherapy goes hand in hand.
They're not necessarilyexclusive?
Yes, they're not.
They're not necessarilyexclusive.
Like you said, you have to knowwhen to take advantage of the
opportunities that God has givenus.
(35:50):
You also mentioned somethingabout the social determinants of
health.
Just talk a little bit aboutthat, just for our listeners,
who may be listening for thefirst time and that's a new term
to them.
Dr. Richard Ferguson (36:01):
Oh, sdohs, yeah.
So this is something that hasbeen out for a while.
I think the first time I sawthe little wheel that some
people if you just type inGoogle, social determinants of
health.
It's aspects outside ofhealthcare that actually
determine how healthy we arelikely to be.
So, for example, just out ofthe recent program last week,
(36:23):
when it comes to education, thehigher level degree that you're
able to attain, it shows astrong correlation.
And if you have a higher degreeyou're likely to live longer,
you're likely to have a higherincome.
You're also less likely todevelop dementia at an earlier
age because you're using yourbrain to stave off.
(36:45):
But also you've had access tolearn about more resources and
knowledge to know what ishealthy to do.
So if you're around, if you getthrough college and you're
around a bunch of peers and goneto classes sociology,
physiology and you understandwow, smoking is really bad.
That's why you'll have more andmore people that if you have a
(37:07):
graduate degree and higher, thelikelihood of them smoking is
far less than someone thatdidn't go to college at all.
So that's one aspect of howsocial determinants of health.
So that's education.
If you have a job and employedemployment, it often determines
what zip code you'll live in, ifyou're going to have be around
(37:29):
clean or dirty air, uh, often,by what you can have, housing
you can afford to live in.
So affordable housing andactually having food security.
So you need accessible food andhousing to probably, if you're
going to have a family, for yourchild it's going to have a
place to do their homework andto have a meal, because if you
don't have proper nutrition yourbrain won't function well.
(37:50):
Then you're not going to beable to finish your grades or
finish your classes and get goodgrades.
So, once again, education beingone of those factors of social
determinants of health.
And then health access itself.
So that either being insuranceallowing you access or you
happen to live in a communitywhere there's a dearth of
doctors, right Like Utah.
If you're in Salt Lake Countyyou're not doing too bad, but if
(38:14):
you're in Cache or you're inMontauk or Roosevelt, you don't
have great access to doctors orspecialists that can determine
how great your health outcomewill be.
So, once again, socialdeterminants of health.
And then, one thing that cansometimes be involved in there
is community resources that onecan have.
(38:38):
So are you near a grocery storeto be able to address that food
security.
So when I think about the wheel, we've got food, education,
health access, employment and Iwould almost say, like
legislation, there's some impacton laws that will determine how
(39:00):
healthy you can be, such as,for example, we as a state
sometimes make the news for thewrong reasons right, and we are
one of the states that in Utah,that we got rid of fluoride from
our water.
No dentist supports that.
There was never high enough.
That was causing toxicity tothe brain was never high enough
that was causing toxicity to thebrain.
Not high enough in our state.
(39:22):
But now in a couple yearsprobably not even a couple years
within probably one to threeyears, you'll start to see an
increased rate of caries inchildren Because we no longer
have fluoride in our water.
Go Utah.
Grantley Martelly (39:36):
Okay, that's great.
Thank you for that explanationand for bringing that out and
how people understand that.
Now the next question I havewas not one I told you about
before, but I think some of thepeople are going to ask this
because you said you work inhealthcare as a health physician
, medical officer, in insurance.
(39:58):
So just if you want to talkabout this a little bit or not,
many people are confused abouthow insurance companies make
decisions about health care, anddo you mind spending a minute
or two just trying to explainwhy that seems to be so
(40:18):
complicated to people and it'ssuch a foreign concept?
Dr. Richard Ferguson (40:23):
Yeah, yeah .
So I think we have tounderstand the history of why
health insurance is there tobegin with.
To begin with, it was before itis in its current state,
(40:46):
because there's profit behind it, and I think whenever there's
profit behind healthcare and itcan lead to you know, if you so,
there's one or two ways to lookat it, because a lot of things
were based on utilization whatdo we use?
What do you do?
Doing utilization right?
So it's often been some of thisbelief if you utilize more, if
(41:11):
you utilize services more, oryou tend to do more or more as a
doctor or perform moresurgeries, you get higher
compensation.
So the more you do, the moreyou get paid.
On the health insurance side, weare concerned about fraud,
waste, abuse, outliers of care.
There's this myth thatinsurance companies have pushed
(41:34):
for a while, even though I'mkind of talking against my own
industry here.
They use some really old andbiased studies saying we will
keep costs down because we'regoing to stop outliers in
duplication in care.
So, for example, we are goingto make sure that someone has,
(41:54):
if they have a priorauthorization, a request that
your doctor has to put inbecause a certain procedure
needs to be approved by theinsurance plan.
That's a prior auth.
It'll come to someone that'sprobably not as specialized as
possibly your doctor, but biggerinsurance plans often will have
someone that'll be reviewed bythe same specialty.
Let's say, for example, a lotof family medicine, internal
medicine.
Pediatricians are reviewingprior authorizations that will
(42:16):
come in and we will look at itsmedical necessity and then
sometimes the Center forMedicare and Medicaid Services,
cms, will put togetherguidelines that we will often
use when it comes to approvingservices.
But sometimes it will vary fromone insurance company to
(42:37):
another on what they'll approve.
A doc is always at the core ofmaking the decision on what we
will accept and we do makemodifications If we feel
something is too restrictive.
We'll remove that barrier of aprior authorization.
Which docs in the communityhospitals hate prior auths.
They dislike them.
(42:58):
But the reason they're there isit's a cost-controlling measure
so that we say, well, we don'twant this person to get this
test twice, so we put a priorauthorization there so we can
stop it from being requestedtwice.
We don't want someone to jumpto get an MRI of their knee
(43:23):
because they sprained their kneewhile hiking on a trail and we
don't have an exam that showswhat is it that they're trying
to image right, and they don'thave an exam that shows why
advanced imaging is warranted.
And then we would probably needto see well, many things can
get better with physical therapybefore you need to jump to an
MRI.
(43:43):
So that's why we'll say, hey,we're going to put a criteria
here that you have to meetbefore you get something that's
a little bit more expensive.
We'd rather pay for somethingthat's cheaper, that's proven to
work, before we go and justjump to advanced imaging.
Because if everybody gets anMRI for their knee or everyone
gets it for a sprained wrist,costs of care are going to
(44:03):
really go up.
So that's why some of thepurpose of health insurance
being there.
But it can be very confusing,especially when people are
denied care and they're tryingto understand why they're denied
.
And I think that's often thebigger misunderstanding that I
try to explain to not only myfellow providers but also the
(44:25):
greater community when it comesto advocating for their care.
Because there's a lot of thingsthat health insurance will
cover but many people aren'taware because they don't ask or
they assume if they had one planthat didn't, the next plan
won't cover.
So preventative services manyof those are covered.
But then people have to dealwith certain deductibles.
(44:49):
Right, how much do I have tospend and come out of pocket
before my insurance company willeven kick in that I'm paying
for every month Because there'sprofit in it?
Right, it's shared.
You know Obama was trying toaddress this with the ACA and
having a uniformed, universal oran attempt at universal or
(45:10):
universal health care, becausethe way it works well in other
developed nations is healthypeople paying to the system.
But you've got healthy peoplesaying, well, I'm not sick, why
do I want to pay for someoneelse that's sick?
So it's that community will, orthat community good to want to
do better.
As a nation, we're kind of verycapitalist, and being
(45:30):
capitalist is often fairlyselfish.
It goes against.
You know, it's hard to havecapitalism and then have great
health care at the same time Oneof them is going to get hurt.
So you either spend more oncare, thus you make less money,
or you spend less on care andyou make more money.
Okay.
Grantley Martelly (45:51):
Well, that's a good introductory discussion.
I think I need to do an episodespecifically on health care and
insurance.
Oh yeah, Insurance on healthcare and insurance.
It's very confusing.
Dr. Richard Fergu (46:01):
Intentionally .
So I want to say Intentionallyso, intentionally, so.
Grantley Martelly (46:09):
Well, how do we improve health outcomes for
people of color?
Dr. Richard Ferguson (46:12):
Oh, I think sometimes one way to start
is go get seen, for if youhaven't been seen, if you're 35
or 40 year old man, let's juststart there.
Hey, 25 year old man, don'twait until you're sick to get
(46:32):
seen.
That year no-transcript, andthen there's less options to
(47:08):
treat by the time you get seen.
So one thing I think that willimprove healthcare outcome is go
to the doctor at least once ayear, even though you're not
sick.
Second I would say is don't goto a visit by yourself.
Put a friend on speakerphone,bring a family member, bring a
friend, call a friend.
Because if you, if you'resomeone, as many black folks,
(47:30):
they go long gaps in betweenseeing a doctor and then the doc
probably doesn't have a lot ofgood news.
So that brings up a lot of fearand people they shut down, they
don't want to listen, and thenwhen the doctor's just giving
you a piece of paper, it's likewell then, follow these.
You're still stuck on himpossibly dropping a precancerous
(47:52):
lesion, and that scared you andyou didn't ask any more
questions.
You just sort of nod your headand then you leave.
You didn't ask any morequestions, you just sort of nod
your head and then you leave andyou've got more questions and
now you're spending time thenext day trying to call the
doctor's office after you werejust there.
But if you have someone elsethat can listen in for you, as I
do for my own mother in Orlandowhen she goes to her meeting,
(48:15):
she puts me on speaker and Ilisten to the whole conversation
and I go, mom, is thereanything you're worried about?
Is there anything we can dothis with our friends and
families?
That's one thing I think will.
That's the second thing I thinkthat will help prove healthcare
outcomes for black folks.
Third is I would try to go toyour local public health
(48:35):
department's websites.
They often have tons of tips ofinformation that you should be
following recipes for hearthealth, recipes for diabetes,
recipes, or how to know forsigns of elevated blood pressure
, tips on how you can loseweight so you can address your
blood pressure.
You can address your bloodpressure.
(48:56):
So I would look at your localpublic health, state or city's
page.
And then probably the fourththing to try to improve
healthcare outcomes is oh man,if you're able to try to get at
least 150 minutes a week ofvigorous physical activity Brisk
(49:19):
, walking, running, swimming,biking, just upper body
weightlifting.
You don't need to belong to agym to be healthy.
I'll put it that way there's alot we can do in the comfort of
our home, outside in the street,to just get a heart rate up,
(49:39):
because sedentary is killing us.
75% of the US is overweight.
Majority of African Americans,particularly African American
women, are like 54% or obese.
So obesity is leading to tonsof other secondary health
conditions, such as cancers.
It can predispose you tocertain cancers because it just
(50:02):
causes so much inflammation inyour body and your cells just
keep turning over and turningover and they're going to make
more mistakes.
So let's try to do more that wecan bring into our control,
that's with nutrition, trying toexercise regularly and try to
go to the doctor at least once ayear.
Don't wait until it hurts.
Grantley Martelly (50:21):
Those are some great action points that
our listeners can follow.
Are there any other topics thatyou wanted to touch on that we
didn't touch on?
Dr. Richard Ferguson (50:29):
Oh, wow.
I don't want people to give uphope.
There are professionalsocieties, my organization being
one American Academy ofPediatrics, the American Academy
of Family Physicians, americanCollege of Obstetrics and
(50:50):
Gynecology.
We are still strongly believingin science and meeting the
healthcare needs and trying toaddress and providing equitable
care, either through lobbying,either through our various roles
in medicine.
I'm trying to do it with someof my access to academic
(51:12):
medicine when it comes toteaching medical students so
that the next generationunderstands bias in medicine,
understands how to get people toadvocate for themselves when
they're seeking care.
So don't lose hope.
There are docs on the rightside that are going to be on the
right side of history as we getthrough some of this.
What appears to be rolling backof some of the great strides we
(51:36):
as a nation have made as beinga leader in science and
technology, and there's fearsthat we're going to no longer be
a leader and that's going to betaken over in the next year or
two.
So don't give up.
There are those of us in thenation here that want all of us
to be healthy.
Grantley Martelly (51:56):
Thank you very much and for our listeners
and the Black Physicians of Utahand you can also reach Dr
Ferguson there at B-P-O-U B asin boy, p as in physician, o as
in of U as in Utah, b-p-o-uorg,and there's lots of information
(52:17):
there.
I've been on your site lookingat some of the information you
have there.
So I want to encourage ourlisteners if you want to reach
out to Dr Ferguson, reach out tohim at bpouorg or you can send
us an email here atAboveTheNoise24 at gmailcom and
we can forward that as well.
Dr. Richard Ferguson (52:37):
We have an Instagram and YouTube page and
LinkedIn.
We're all over.
We have a TikTok too.
Grantley Martelly (52:44):
You've got it all.
They're all under BPOU?
Dr. Richard Ferguson (52:48):
Just type in Black Physicians of Utah.
There's only one of us underTikTok, instagram, linkedin.
Give us a follow.
We put out health educationvideos pretty much every week
and we have an event.
If you're local to utah, uh,there's.
There's a lot going on herethat we do to support our
community well.
Grantley Martelly (53:06):
Thank you very much, and I want to thank
my nephew, uh junior from umTrident Concierge in Salt Lake
there, who introduced you and Ito each other.
I look forward to continuingconversations with you and
continuing to grow ourfriendship.
Thanks for joining us today.
Dr. Richard Ferguson (53:23):
No, my pleasure.
Next, health insurance.
Grantley Martelly (53:26):
Yeah, next I'll bring health insurance.
Write us at realhealthblackmenat gmailcom.
Realhealthblackmen at gmailcom.
Real Health Black Men atgmailcom.
To support this podcast, go tobuymeacoffeecom forward.
(53:47):
Slash Real Health Black Men.
Buymeacoffeecom /Real HealthBlack Men and to become a
corporate sponsor, send us anemail.
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