49. Life-Saving Swim Lessons with ISR Instructor Jamie Berger

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Today we have the pleasure of sitting down with our children's ISR (Infant Swimming Resources) instructor, Jamie Berger of Safe Swim LLC. 

In this episode, we promise you'll gain a deep understanding of the benefits of ISR lessons over traditional swim programs. Unlike conventional methods, ISR lessons are tailored to each child's needs, featuring frequent, shorter sessions that enhance retention and effectiveness. 

Jamie also discusses the common misconceptions about ISR, and if you and your child understand the concept of "skills before thrills," you can expect to achieve incredible life saving results.

A must listen for any parent with young children!

If you are interested in getting in touch with Jamie, below is the best contact information:

Jamie Berger
www.safeswimisr.com
Email: [e-mail]

Episode Transcript

Rachel Wagner (00:00):
Welcome back to another episode of the Real Life
Investing Podcast with Jasonand Rachel Wagner.
Today we have a very specialguest that we're going to
introduce, ms Jamie Berger.
Ms Jamie and we say Ms Jamiebecause she is an instructor for
our children.
She is our swim instructor forISR and she has been the most
influential teacher that ourchildren have had.
You guys are going to make mecry.

(00:21):
Well, I'm not kidding.
Every single day, our youngestLayla, wakes up and asks me, as
I'm changing her diaper am Iswimming with Jamie?
Today Is today swim with Jamie.
I mean, they just adore you andthey have learned so much from
you.
So we are so excited to haveyou on the show and share our
ISR story and, more specifically, yours and how you got into

(00:41):
this and what it is and what itmeans for kids.
So, and how you got into thisand what it is and what it means
for kids.
So thank you so much for comingon the show.

Jamie Berger (00:47):
Thanks for having me.
I'm so excited.

Rachel Wagner (00:50):
Yeah, we are so excited.
So ISR I'm not going to givethe history, I will let you do
that, but I will just share thatwe found ISR about a year ago
when we bought our house,because we were buying a house
with a pool, which is somethingI never thought I would do
because, of obvious reasons, hadyoung kids and the risk of
drowning obviously was a top ofmind.
So I started doing research andcame across a swim program

(01:12):
called ISR and said, jason, wehave to do this, we have to do
this.
So, jamie, can you share alittle bit what?
What is ISR?

Jamie Berger (01:19):
Yes, so ISR stands for infant swimming resources,
which is kind of it's a littlebit misleading because we can
teach from six months old to sixyears old.
I've taught nine-year-olds andstuff before too, so it's not
really just a specific age group.
But there is a guy named HarveyBarnett and he started ISR many

(01:42):
, many, many moons ago.
So he was just like a surferdude that lived in Florida,
lived at his parents' house, Ibelieve, and in Florida there's
pools in everyone's backyards,and so he was kind of getting
tired of the continued story ofchildren drowning in his
parents' neighborhood.
So he was like, how can I fixthis?

(02:04):
You know, how can I solutionfor this and help these kids
survive if they were to maketheir way to water by themselves
?
I believe he started withfive-year-old boys, came up with
the concept of swim, float,swim.
You know, if you canself-rescue, you can get on your
back on your own and then findyour way to the side and get
yourself out.
Then you have much more of achance.

(02:25):
You know, obviously pools andopen water are very different
concepts, but from a poolstandpoint or a lake or a
retention pond those kinds ofthings.
So he started withfive-year-old boys and then kind
of just expanded from there andthen I think once he got a lot
of traction from that, then hestarted training people to have

(02:47):
a similar concept as what hebasically taught himself.
Fast forward a number of years.
He then basically got like anhonorary degree from a
behavioral psychology standpoint, because a lot of what we do
it's science-based.
You know it's all based onreinforcements, you know,

(03:07):
positive or negative andallowing kids to actively engage
in the environment in a safeway so that we can kind of teach
them.
You guys have witnessed it.
There's there's a lot that goesinto it.
If you met me when I was in myfirst, probably two years of
teaching, I didn't do a lot oftalking to parents.
But now I can kind of build arelationship with the parents

(03:34):
while I'm teaching, because youknow I've taught well over 800
kids now at this point and so Ican kind of pay attention to the
movements and things that arehappening and reinforce that as
I'm building relationships.

Jason Wagner (03:40):
And honestly I want to point out because when I
would go to some of theselessons with you, you were
talking to me and I'm like atfirst I was like, well, is she
paying attention to what's going?

Jamie Berger (03:50):
on in the water.

Jason Wagner (03:51):
I'm like, obviously you were but like you
just had so much confidence in,like, what you were doing and
this was my first time and I wasjust like I don't really know
what to expect here.
But you know, you just kind ofthink of it like okay, I know
they can't swim, you've got yourhands very much off of them,
you've actually got your phonetaking pictures of them in the
water and I'm like she reallyknows what she's doing.

(04:13):
You know, like you just gotthat sense and then you would
tell me like okay, I'm doingthis and this, and like you're
talking to me that whole 10minutes and again, like that's
just a skill set that I'd never,ever seen before, right?
So that's just like there's amaster in the room and we're
really learning from you.
So that was cool.
Yeah, thank you.
Thank you for saying that, sure, sure.

Jamie Berger (04:34):
I think a part of that is also, you know, I my
background.
So I originally I was a vettech for a number of years.
I did ER and ICU overnights fora long time.
Then I was in day practice fora while and so dealing with
emergency situations, you haveto think about a number of
different things at one time.

(04:54):
Then fast forward.
I went from being a vet tech,got married, realized I didn't
really want to work overnightswe were probably going to have a
family at some point.
So switched to the corporateworld.
I was in sales and then workedmy way up through project
management and then, while I wasdoing that, I was pregnant, had

(05:15):
my daughter and I was like I,the regular swim lessons just
don't quite make sense to me.
So then found ISR, had mydaughter go through ISR.
Then fast forward a little bit.
I worked for a medical waste me.
So then found ISR, had mydaughter go through ISR.
Then fast forward a little bit.
I worked for a medical wastecompany.
So 2020 was really hard.
I was working all hours of theday because I supported global

(05:35):
efforts and I was like I don'treally want to do this.
I don't want to be the momthat's missing bedtime, that's
missing dance, that's missingdinner, and so I was like maybe
I can be an ISR instructor and,crazy enough, I made it happen.
But I think my history ofhaving to juggle so many
different things I was able toonce I honed in on the skill set

(05:57):
of not being so nervous.
Teaching the kids, thenbuilding relationships is is
something that's so important.
You know, on mom, talking toanother mom, that's how I get my
business Right, and so buildingrelationships is is huge, and
you guys probably know that fromthe real estate standpoint as
well.

Jason Wagner (06:14):
Oh for sure, yeah, yeah.
I mean when you're like amaster at your craft, people
want to refer you and like thatit's very clear and obvious.
We're only with you for 10minutes really 20, because we
have two kids with you but 10minutes is all it takes and it's
very, very impressive what hasgone down.
So can we kind of compare,because actually, rachel, we've

(06:36):
been through like a traditionalswim class.

Rachel Wagner (06:40):
Yeah, so actually we started both girls at
swimming lessons at like fourmonths old with like a swim
school where they just didtraditional once a week 30
minute lesson and with us untillike two, two and a half, until
they basically didn't listenwith us in the pool anymore.
Then they moved to like theinstructor leg classes, but we
did that like very prettyconsistently.

(07:01):
Obviously there was someinterruption from COVID, but you
know we did those lessons andthere was a comfort in the water
that certainly existed.
And there was a little bit oflike listening skills that were
starting like they'd kick yourfeet when you told them to kick
your feet, but you're holdingthem the whole time, you know.
And so when we bought the housewith the pool, it wasn't enough
for us to feel supercomfortable, you know.

(07:22):
So I guess you did mention acouple of things.
One, jason you've mentioned acouple of times that the
lesson's only 10 minutes, sothat was certainly like a head
scratcher.
And then you shared too thatthey're very different from
traditional lessons.
So can you share a little bitabout why they're different and
how they're different?

Jamie Berger (07:37):
So lessons are like up to 10 minutes a day,
five days a week, for about fiveto seven weeks.
It depends on the instructor,it depends on the kid.
You know some kids could take14 weeks, Some kids could take
three weeks.
You just never know.
And so I will say any swimlesson is better than than no

(07:58):
swim lesson.
If you would have talked to mein the first two years of my ISR
journey, I would have had verystrong feelings about
traditional lessons versus ISRlessons.
Honestly, it's really hard.
It's really hard to get accessto ISR lessons.
You know there's not a lot ofus out there.
It's hard to get on my schedule.
My schedule is built around mykids' schedule, right.
So it's hard.

(08:20):
So any swim lesson is betterthan no swim lesson, but I will
say so.
The concept of the 10 minutes aday, five days a week you know
you don't learn to walk or crawlpracticing once a week for 30
to 45 minutes, right.
If you compare ISR totraditional swim lessons, or
even if you think back to kidslearning to hold their head up,

(08:41):
you practice tummy time to getthem to hold their head up five
minutes at a time, three times aday, right.
And so kids fatigue really fast.
Physically they fatigue,temperature-wise they fatigue.
If you're tired you're notgoing to retain a lot of
information.
So within those 10 minutes wedo work them very hard.

(09:01):
I have so many people thatreach out to me that want to get
on the wait list and they'relike why, like what?
Can you just extend the lessons?
Like just come and see a lessonand then you'll see why 10
minutes is enough?
And so you know, we teach themfor those up to 10 minutes, give
them a 24 hour break and thenthat compounds over the six

(09:23):
weeks.
But every kid's very different,so we teach.
It's not like I go into everylesson and say this is exactly
what I'm doing today.
Today we're working on kicks,or today we're working on breath
control, or today we're workingon floating.
Like I just teach what's infront of me that day.
Kids are different every day.
They're moving target.
They could be teething, theycould be tired.

(09:43):
They could be teething, theycould be tired, they could.
You know, I don't they.
They could just not feel itLike same thing, like same thing
with us.
We may be just having a day,and so I try and meet them where
they're at and then decide howto approach it from there.

Jason Wagner (09:56):
And that's, that's the beauty of just like
one-on-one instruction, becauseit is very personalized and and
you are able to kind of read theroom of what's happening with
that child.

Jamie Berger (10:06):
Yeah, and I think, like with ISR, with being
one-on-one and then traditionallessons being more of a group
setting, it's hard, Like theirattention span doesn't last that
long.
The pool may be a little bitcolder.
You know, I've had a lot ofswim families, you know, say
they have three kids and I'vetaught the two younger ones and
the older one.

(10:26):
Their schedule is a little bitharder because they're in school
full time.
The parents have done a costcomparison, a time comparison,
all that stuff, and they end uppaying loads more for the
traditional lessons becausethey're like my seven-year-old
still can't swim independently,but my 18 month old can, and
that's you know.

(10:46):
And then they go back to thosetraditional lessons with the
seven year old and they're likewell, my kid's really only
swimming eight minutes of the 45, you know there, and so I'm
paying more because think of howthe years taking longer too,
yeah.
And so it it's.
It's an investment timefinancially blood, sweat and

(11:07):
tears because there are sometears, yeah, and but like it
pans out.
You know you guys have saidlike I am looked at in your kids
eyes, like this very specialperson totally, totally, yeah,
if you would have asked themweek one, two, three, maybe
three, maybe not, maybe thewhole first session.

Jason Wagner (11:27):
They were a little fearful of you when they first
started, but let's kind of getinto that, because I think
there's kind of I guess youcould say controversy around it,
like, is that a thing?

Rachel Wagner (11:38):
Well, and some misconceptions, because I
certainly had them, because Ididn't consider ISR lessons
until we bought this house and Idid my research and my
misconception of it Well.

Jason Wagner (11:46):
how did you hear about it first?

Rachel Wagner (11:47):
Well, yeah, I mean I didn't know ISR
specifically, but I knew therewas this other lesson out there
that would just throw kids inthe pool and see what happens.

Jason Wagner (11:56):
Sometimes.
That's how I explain it topeople.

Rachel Wagner (11:58):
I'm just like you know, but I do it as like a guy
thing.
That's what I thought it was.
It's much more gentle, yeah,it's way more gentle than that,
like that was so not?

Jason Wagner (12:07):
yeah, most people I talk to they're like what is
ISR?
I'm like have you ever heard oflike people?
They just kind of chuck thebabies in the pool and they just
like you know, it's kind oflike that, but I say it in more
of a comedy way, right?

Jamie Berger (12:17):
yeah, for sure.
I mean, you have to bring lightto it yeah, how right, it's
because the other side of it isreally sad.
So I like to explain to peopleif you're not good at something,
you're not going to really wantto do it.
Right, like if I don't know howto golf.
If I went to go learn how togolf today, the words that I

(12:38):
would be saying would not bevery polite, right, I'd be like
I'm terrible at this, I neverwant to do this again.
So it's the similar concept.
Right, you're not going to feelcomfortable until you have the
confidence.
We like to say skills beforethrills.
Right, when you finally havethe skills, then the thrills can
come.
But when you practice and youstart to realize that you're

(13:00):
being independent and you startto realize that you're the one
making the decision in the water, like, meaning the kids are and
I'm not the one guiding youanymore, then the thrills come.
But I wouldn't want to doanything that I wasn't good at.
And they're not really good atit until they learn it and they
might also have like for olderkids.
When they start they're likewell, I go to this one pool and

(13:22):
I just sing songs and I have alot of fun and then I come here
and I have to work really hardand I don't want to work really
hard.
Who does?
And so I would have bigfeelings about that as well.
But then you know a lot of itis because it's kind of a
balance there's.
You know the hot topics ofgentle parenting and stuff now.

(13:44):
So it is a hard thing to seeyour kid crying in a stranger's
arms because you know you guysdon't really know me yet.
Once you get to know me, thenyou realize like I'm not a bad
guy.
But it's hard to see that andhard to talk them through it.
So fear is a learned behaviorand so, for example, if you are

(14:09):
jumping off the couch maybe notthe smartest decision If you get
hurt jumping off the couch,you're going to be more hesitant
to do it right Because you'renegatively reinforced by getting
hurt jumping off the couch.
If someone says, don't jump offthe couch, you're going to get
hurt, then they're also a littlebit more hesitant.
But kids are a hundred percentcurious, so they're going to try

(14:31):
and find out on their own.
And so if you take that concept, if you continue to say it's
okay to be afraid, they're goingto think that they need to be
afraid.
So I, we are big on wordchoices in our family, and so
it's more so like it's okay tobe nervous.
You can do hard things.
I do hard things every day.

Jason Wagner (14:52):
I love that you say that to them, because that's
consistently yeah you you saythat all the time, and I think
that's a really good motto isthat you can do hard things.
Yeah, yeah, I love that You'velike tagged that as your thing.

Jamie Berger (15:03):
I have had so many people tell me stories of like
we were at the park the otherday and I was asking my kid if
they needed help doing something, and they're like mom, I can do
hard things, or like parentsbeing like I'm going through a
rough time and because you tellmy kid every day that he can do
hard things, I know that I cando hard things.

Jason Wagner (15:23):
Yes.

Jamie Berger (15:24):
Yeah.

Jason Wagner (15:25):
I have to remind myself that you actually impact
the parents more than the kids,I bet.

Jamie Berger (15:29):
Yeah, you expect your kids to sit up, you expect
them to crawl, you expect themto walk, you don't expect them
to self-rescue, and so theprofound moment of proudness
that you have when you see yourkids self-rescue independently
is a feeling like no other, andI witnessed that as a swim
parent myself, and then I wantedto share that feeling with

(15:51):
everyone, like it's just, it'sso cool, but, yeah, and I also
like working with kids.
You're kind of like a stay athome mom, because your bosses
are these, you know, little kidsthat are going to yell at you
all day, and so the parent, theadult interaction that I get is
with you guys poolside.
So that's probably also anotherreason why I talk so much now
is because I'm like this is mysocial media adult, yeah, yeah,

(16:13):
adult conversation.

Rachel Wagner (16:14):
Yeah, Okay, there's so many things I want to
go back to.
Well, I guess I'll just alsosay, like, with the like us
following how you talk to thekids, and specifically our kids,
I feel like I have mimicked youa lot and and changed the way
that I talk to our kids too.
And I've caught Scarlett atgymnastics.
Actually, when she goes up onthe high beam she's like talking

(16:35):
to herself and talking herselfup.
I can see it in the video andshe's like okay, one, two, three
, you know.
And I have heard her say I cando hard things.

Jason Wagner (16:45):
Oh, I have heard her say I can do hard things.
Oh, I've heard her say I can dohard things.

Rachel Wagner (16:47):
Yes, she talks herself up.

Jason Wagner (16:49):
I can do this, Like you know, like she throws
her arms down and she closes hereyes and like she's imagining
herself, like doing it.

Rachel Wagner (16:54):
Yes, yeah totally and that 100% came from you.

Jamie Berger (16:58):
That's a you thing .
It totally is.

Rachel Wagner (17:05):
So it's not just in the water, and that's why I
say you've been the mostinfluential instructor for them,
because it has really spilledover into so many other areas of
our life.

Jamie Berger (17:10):
I mean, we even do the high five knuckles,
jellyfish thing like all thetime, and that I have to give
credit to my master instructorbecause he created that
handshake and then I adopted it.
But he also taught my daughterat a certain point too.
So I was like you know, I'm aswim parent, I can steal this.
It's so fun to see so muchcount, like when they realize

(17:33):
that they can do something hard.

Jason Wagner (17:36):
They can do all other hard things, yes Well and
like I kind of want to pointthis out, because when our kids,
like they, just start crying,they, they break down and again,
your lesson is only 10 minutes.
So like for me to get Scarlettto want to do something if she
just starts crying and for me tokind of like push her to
continue doing it for the next10 minutes is nearly impossible.

(17:58):
But you have these littletricks, which which is the
handshake, and you know justthese small little things that
you tell them.
Somehow they're able to calmdown and continue with the
lesson, so that it's not just 10minutes of crying and not doing
anything, like it's, it's justlike pure mastery what you're
doing and so cool.

Jamie Berger (18:18):
I want it goes back to like the behavioral
psychology of a lot of it too,and word choices.
I I say a lot when, and thenI'm not giving you a choice.
When you do this, then we'll dothat right.
Like I'm not above bribery orbargaining.
I use it at home too, like whenyou brush your teeth.
You know, in the morning whenyou brush your teeth then you

(18:39):
can fine have a piece of candy.
You know I'll lose that battletoday, but there's no if.
If you brush your teeth thenyou get candy.
You're giving them a choice tosay no, no, it's when, when you
choose to do this Right.
So then I use that a lot inlessons where it's like, well,
when you do this swim for fourseconds, then we can do what you

(19:00):
want, and then you know, andthen we just kind of go from
there.
But I also don't really givethem the opportunity, we just
work them really hard, tire themout.
You know, kids eat betterduring lessons, they sleep
better during lessons.
They are a little bit nicer.
You know, I experienced that asa swim parent myself.
It's a different type ofworkout.

Rachel Wagner (19:21):
Oh yeah, for sure , definitely sleep great on swim
days oh, for sure, um, so therewas a.

Jason Wagner (19:27):
There was a lesson where we had scarlet and layla.
They both came in their fulloutfits, yes, and their clothes,
yes, walking clothes.
Can you talk through like whatthat whole concept is?

Jamie Berger (19:38):
absolutely so, I think.
I think the numbers are like86% of the time that there is a
aquatic event, it is duringnon-swim time.
So that's this is when you'repacking up the bags to leave the
beach, or packing up your yourpool bags, you know, folding up

(19:59):
the towels, putting them in thebag and they just run back to
the water.
They think that was somethingthat I was having a lot of fun
doing.
I'm just going to go back, orit's.
You know, you run inside tograb a hot dog and they're
running back in.
And so the concept is is that wewant them to practice fully
clothed, because if they're tomake their way to water by

(20:19):
themselves alone, it's likelythat they'll be clothed to some
capacity, and so it.
For me, it kind of depends onthe time of year, and you know
ISR is offered all over.
There were a few people that Iadded to my team a while ago and
their master instructor cameall the way from Portugal, so
you know it's offered over inEurope as well.
So seasonality comes with it.

(20:40):
So, like right now, if I was todo a clothing lesson, I'd
probably do one day of likepajamas or summer clothes, and
then the next day would be likefall clothes, so like cool night
by the lake, and then duringwinter we do like normal day,
whatever they'd wear to schoolthat day, and then full winter
clothes.

Jason Wagner (21:00):
So like the parka.

Jamie Berger (21:01):
Yeah, yeah.
And sometimes parents are like,well, you know, like this time
of year they're like can we dothree days and we do full winter
gear the third day?
I'm like, absolutely Like, ifyou want to see that I have no,
I have no concerns with doingthat at all.
But it's also like this time ofyear all the kids have grown
since last year Like, do youhave the sizes available for

(21:23):
full winter gear?
And our winter concept ofclothes is very different than
Florida.
Right, our fall clothes iswinter's Florida clothes or is
Florida's winter clothes?
So, yeah, it's really cool whenyou see it.
It's a little bit daunting whenyou see it, sometimes too.
Like for my daughter, when shedid her winter clothes the first

(21:44):
time, we had to do it twice.
She was.
She was only like eight and ahalf months old when she first
started and so she was her.
The coat was way too big.
And now again, as an instructor, I've made those adjustments so
that my families don't have toexperience that where her her
body was horizontal, face downin the water, but her face was

(22:06):
actually up above the water.
Like she was breathingunderneath the hood but she was
too small to like get the hoodoff of her face right, so she
was up like she was breathing,but she wasn't on her back yet
and she had a really hard timegetting on her back because the
winter coat that we had at thattime was just too big, and so

(22:27):
sometimes it's.
It doesn't always go as planned.
Sometimes there are kids thathave a lot of movement in their
float.
So there's also the conceptthat, like sometimes, I'll put
the kids on their back and intheir float and parents will be
like, oh great kicks.
And while I appreciate theencouragement, I'm also like I
never get in the way of whatparents are saying to their kids

(22:47):
.
I just teach around it becauseyou guys are going to be with
them most often.
But we actually try and slowdown those kicks when they're on
their back, because if they'rekicking they're just going to
totally flood their face withwater or like with Scarlett
she's a little bit olderSometimes those feet drop right.
Which now we've pretty muchcorrected it and we've changed
the way that she does kick onher back, so it's a little bit

(23:08):
more productive.
But sometimes I'll use layeringclothes on them to slow down
some of that movement.
If I can't do it, based onreinforcements and they're just,
like you know, a rambunctiouswild kid and there's always,
they're always in a constantstate of motion Like I can work
with that.
But let's weigh them down alittle bit and make them realize

(23:29):
oh, I don't have to work thathard.
Floating can be a lot easierthan it is.

Jason Wagner (23:34):
Yeah, yeah, I didn't learn to swim this way at
all.
Oh no, did you no?

Rachel Wagner (23:40):
No.

Jason Wagner (23:45):
Like the whole concept of you know Scarlett and
Layla, so they'll swim forwardand then they'll get tired and
they'll like quickly shift totheir back and Layla can do it
like so fast she's so fast,she's just like.

Jamie Berger (23:57):
Yeah.

Jason Wagner (23:58):
And she can do it the full length of our pool, and
how far would you say that isOur pool?
I?

Jamie Berger (24:05):
don't know, 15 yards 10 yards.

Jason Wagner (24:07):
I don't know Something like that.
It's a big pool back there,right, and you know, and she was
doing that while she was stilltwo.
It's just, it's just incrediblethe skills that that come out
of this and so how far so.
But kids, you said, can startat six months.
Yeah which is shocking.
Yeah, and then how far do youend up taking them again?

Jamie Berger (24:28):
So if they start around six months, between like
six months and two, I personallylike to just teach the rollback
to float.
They're closer to two, thenI'll teach the full swim.
Float swim you can.
If they can walk, then we canteach the swim.
I just find that sometimes theswim is not as productive, at

(24:49):
like 15 months, 18 months, andso, yeah, they're, like you know
, swimming face down for a fewseconds and then they turn onto
their back and then they floatfor a few breaths and then they
turn and swim again, but they'renot going to be able to have
the endurance to get across thewhole pool, right?
So in an aquatic emergency,from my perspective and all ISR
instructors could probably havedifferent opinions on this

(25:13):
they're going to float and waitfor help, right?
If they're at a pool that theydon't know exit points.
You know they're just going tofloat, so I find that I keep
them in their float a little bitlonger and then, around two,
then I can start transitioningthem towards the swim and then,
when there's enough willingnessof participation, if you will,

(25:33):
then I can start teaching themsome strokes.
Not all ISR instructors teachstrokes, but I have a
competitive swim background andso it's been really fun for me
to challenge myself to teachstrokes at a really young age.
But, like you know, with Layla,she's two and she's doing
elementary backstroke.
She's starting to do regularbackstroke, right.
Next thing I would work on isbreaststroke and then freestyle

(25:55):
arms, and so ISR students it'sactually much easier to teach
them side breathing as well,because so many kids are so used
to like doggy paddling.
You know they're holding theirhead up above the water.
They're a little bit morevertical and it's not a very
productive swim.
They're not getting where theyneed to go very fast, and so
with ISR students, they swimface down in the water.

(26:17):
You know, which is somethingthat I think as a community, or
you know, we just we need tonormalize seeing kids' faces in
the water in a safe way.
So when they're face downswimming for about four seconds
or whatever, and then they turnon their back, we call that a
rollback.
And so when you, when youeventually teach them freestyle,
they're already doing thatrotation.

(26:37):
You just stop it from goingfully Right, so they already
have the positioning down.

Rachel Wagner (26:42):
It's so much easier.
Yeah, yeah, that makes sense.

Jamie Berger (26:45):
But the key is the willingness of participation at
that.
For for strokes, right, youknow they have to want to engage
in that and they have to wantto learn.
And then sometimes they get toa point where they get too
comfortable with me, or thenthey're like playing my
heartstrings and they're like,but but, miss Jamie, I don't
want to do that today.
And I'm like ah, okay, well,what do you want to do?
Because now we're at the pointwhere we're having fun, yeah.

Jason Wagner (27:07):
Yeah, yeah.
Let's talk about a little bitof your competitive background
that you had.
How long have you been swimmingand what was that like?

Jamie Berger (27:16):
Yeah.
So I started swimming on swimteam probably at like five and a
half.
You know I don't really knowhow great of a swimmer I was
then, but it was.
You know I didn't learn throughISR.
My parents say that it was like, yeah, we just threw you in and
you just figured it out.
I don't think it was reallythat dramatic right.

(27:37):
Just like people saying thatabout ISR, it's much more gentle
than that.
So I was a competitive swimmer.
I pretty much my whole life Iswam all year round, was on
varsity at Stevenson freshmanyear, then kind of got burnt out
.
You know Stevenson is a verycompetitive school.
I was not very good atacademics.
So academics on top of you know, five afternoon practices,

(28:01):
three morning practices andmeets on Saturdays, it was a lot
.
And so I stopped swimmingfreshman year of high school and
then picked it back up againjunior year of high school for
just a season and then stoppedagain.
I didn't love practice.
I tried every way to get out ofthat and but yeah, it's crazy

(28:22):
because people knowing my swimjourney and how, how good I was
at a swimmer or as a swimmerthey're like never would have
thought that I would have givenup a corporate job to put on a
wetsuit and be in the waterevery day, but I'm providing
such a skill for kids.
That's also.
The other thing is a lot ofpeople were really surprised

(28:43):
that I ended up working withkids because I wasn't a huge kid
person but, I can come up witha few funny things to say every
10 minutes.
right, we can come up with thehandshake.
We can come up with like thebargaining, and you know, having
my own kid it helps kind ofteach you how to engage with
kids and stuff.

Jason Wagner (29:00):
But yeah, I just want to say that you said you
weren't the strongestacademically yeah.
No, you said you weren't thestrongest academically yeah, and
.
But you had this competitivenature and now you run your own
business, which is obviouslyvery successful, and that's just
funny.

Jamie Berger (29:15):
It's crazy, it's really crazy.
You know, my husband is alawyer, so he did you know
everything to the, to the topdegree, right.
And here I am like never reallygraduated from anything.
I'm like, did I really graduatefrom high school?
I don't know.
No, I did, but, you know, wentto like a few.
I started as a nursing studentat Harper and then realized

(29:37):
maybe I don't want to work withpeople that closely and then vet
tech stuff.
Then to the corporate world.
But I think the corporate worldreally set me up for knowing
everything from start to finish.
From a business standpoint, Ihelped with global process
improvement and implementationand that kind of stuff, and so I

(29:58):
worked a lot with the executiveteam.
So it gave me that creative andcritical thinking mindset to be
able to run my own business.
There's a lot that I reallywould like to improve within my
own current process.
I think it's okay right now,but you know it does the job,
but it's hard.
I'm in the water six to ninehours a day and then on top of

(30:19):
that I have to do several hoursof admin stuff.
But for the families that knowme, I'll be like you know
that'll ask about scheduling.
I'm like, yeah, yeah, I'mbehind a little bit.
You know, I'll get to it.
You know, I'll eventually getto it.
But yeah, I think you know andit goes back to just trying to
win.
You know, and I tried to leadwith you know.

(30:41):
It's again, it's a timecommitment, it's a financial
commitment, all that kind ofstuff.
But I try to just teach as manykids as I can and then the
finances are secondary.
Right, if I can reach as manykids as I can, then there's more
people out there that are saferand have a chance.

Jason Wagner (31:01):
Yeah, yeah.
Do you have any like not that Iwant to go into the bad stories
, but do you have any like kindof scary stories that you've
kind of come across?

Jamie Berger (31:11):
Yeah, yeah, we work with families all the time
that have lost kids due todrowning.
I worked with a student a fewyears ago that actually had a
drowning incident himself.
He was hospitalized in the ICUfor a few days.
Now he I got text messages thissummer.
Now he's on the Barrington swimteam and so for a little while

(31:33):
like teaching him I was a newinstructor when I first started
teaching him and so I was alittle bit nervous because I was
like his association with watercould be different.
You know, he did have a triggerwhere he, if he would get water
in his mouth, that did triggersome panic, which is valid, and
so for years we kind of had towork through that.

(31:54):
Like he had the skillset reallyfast.
I was working on strokes withhim within that first session
and he was only like three and ahalf and so he picked it up
really quick.
But it was like when he wouldtake his skills, and then we I
like to say when he realizesthat his skills are portable so
not just my controlledenvironment of my pool, but
taking these skills elsewhere hewould get triggered and kind of

(32:17):
panic sometimes and go reallyvertical and it wasn't great.
So then I had to meet them likeat a public pool Cause I was
like I got to see what's goingon here.
We, we worked through all ofthat and, yeah, now he's on swim
team and loving it.
But yeah, then I have a fewother families that have
unfortunately lost kids due todrowning, and then now I'm
teaching the younger siblings.

(32:37):
It's it's really sad.
It's really it's really sad,but it's also empowering, right,
when you know more, you do more, and so I think that's a hard
concept for our culture, becausesome people are like well, we
don't have access to a pool orwe don't swim a lot, we don't go
to the lake a lot.
Well, it can happen in yourbathtub, you know less than an

(32:59):
inch of water.
It could happen in the toilet.
You know something like that,and so, while you may think that
ISR might not be the best suitfor you, it's safer swimmers
sooner.
And then at two or three you'relearning strokes right, where
most two and three-year-oldsaren't even putting their face
in the water yet, and so youkind of have to weigh the pros

(33:20):
and cons and figure out what'sbest for your family.
But I think most drowningfamilies, or families that have
been impacted by drowning, arehuge advocates of not only ISR
but just survival swim.
You know there's other, there'sother programs that are like
ISR.
I think ISR is probably one ofthe most well-known, but they

(33:43):
all say now that I know better,I do better.

Jason Wagner (33:47):
Yeah, how quickly can like a drowning actually
happen?

Jamie Berger (33:51):
24 seconds wow wow that's so thanks right and
think about how many times a daythat you don't see your kid for
24 seconds you know a lot, andit's not because we're bad
parents, it's just, you know, wemay be going to the bathroom,
we may be getting the snack thatthey were just begging us for,
or we may be cutting thewatermelon a different way

(34:14):
because we didn't cut it rightthe first time, and then they
just like run somewhere else and, you know, splash around and
then, yeah, so it can take 24seconds for apnea to set in,
which is scary.

Jason Wagner (34:28):
Yeah, that's very scary.
Oh, that's why we put such anemphasis on it, just as our
family, right.

Rachel Wagner (34:33):
Yeah, I wanted to go back to a little more
specifics on the time commitmentand financial commitment or
investment, if you don't mindgoing into that.
So we did say every day, fivedays a week, for 10 minutes.
But that's typically just forthe first session, right?
So the first, like seven toeight weeks, and then after that
most kids then move intomaintenance.
Is that a fair assessment?

Jamie Berger (34:54):
Yeah, and so it depends on, like the first
session, what their end skillsetis right.
If they're under thetwo-year-olds, then they're just
going to learn the rollback tofloat and they'll float for
several minutes, which is reallycool, and then we'll do
maintenance, which is just oncea week, a few times a year, but
when they're closer to two thenwe'll do kind of a refresher

(35:15):
session which is every day againfor a few weeks so that we can
transition them towards the swim, float, swim.
So we're adding the swim inthere and changing the sequence
around a little bit, but theyalready know half of the skills.
Adding the swim in there andchanging the sequence around a
little bit, but they alreadyknow half of the skills.
And then, once they're swim,float swim then yeah, back to
once a week, few times a year?
Yeah, just 10 minutes.

(35:36):
At some point, like when theyget to an older age.
I would love to do more, likemaybe three kids versus me found
a way to build that into myschedule because, you know, I
kind of want to focus on thegroup of kids that are more
impacted by the statistics andwhen they get to that age

(35:56):
they're less impacted but alsomore likely in school, and not
every family wants to come at6am like you guys do, but I'll
come.
I come that early.
So, yeah, when they're inschool age two, it just gets a
little bit harder with that.
Every ISR instructor is theirown independent contractor, and
so pricing is determined basedon them.

(36:19):
So what is pool rental?
What is all that kind of stuff?
You know admin time.
You know I'm not just payingmyself for being in the water,
but also all of the computerstuff that I have to do
scheduling, invoicing, waitlists.
you know just all the questions,that kind of stuff.
And you know when I when I'vetaught over 800 families.

(36:41):
Now, at this point it can be alot.
Yeah, yeah, it's a big Tetrisgame.

Jason Wagner (36:46):
Sure, but I love it, but you get.
I think if anyone's consideringit, it's like the result comes.
Do you have any experienceswhere a result didn't come, and
what was it due to?

Jamie Berger (36:58):
Yeah, I've had one student that we tried for a few
weeks, I think it's.
I think it depends on parentingstyles, right.
He was five and a half hatesputting his face in the water.
He did not speak English, I didnot speak Spanish, so it was
kind of hard for us tocommunicate with each other.

(37:19):
Our program is nonverbal, right,like we can teach kids that's
as young as six months, so itdoesn't.
It's all based onreinforcements and so we don't
have to.
But at that age, when there'ssuch an emotional factor, it's
easier if I can talk themthrough it a little bit.
And so they, after two days ofhim getting in the water with me

(37:41):
, they kind of had him sit andwatch other lessons, which is
then really hard because he'scoming to the pool but not
getting in.
And then we didn't, we, he justwouldn't get back in.
So one out of 800 plus isn't aterrible ratio.
I do kind of beat myself upabout it as an instructor
because you know I haven't hadthat before, but you know, to no

(38:06):
fault of any of us, we, we gaveit a good try, but yeah.

Jason Wagner (38:11):
Yeah, no.

Jamie Berger (38:12):
Do you think um, there's an ideal age to start or
kind of like a sweet spot toput your kids in age wise, I
like to say if you want to startas a floater, usually like
eight to 12 months is a good agerange they have to be sitting
on assisted for 60 seconds tostart.
So not every six month old isdoing that these days.

(38:33):
Right, all of those milestoneshave changed and they didn't
change because COVID there was a20 year study going on prior to
COVID that, like then changedthose statistics of those
milestones, but so not every sixmonth old is sitting on
assisted.
So I like around eight monthsto 12 months if you're going to
start as a floater.
I also like that age groupbecause they may also be

(38:55):
transitioning to walking, whichthen creates a lot of
interference in the water,because they realize, oh my gosh
, I have feet.
So, like we were talking aboutwith the, we're trying to slow
down the movement on their back.
I can catch that at a young agebecause they're like, oh my
gosh, my feet work on land, theymust work for me in the water,
but when you're floating on yourback not so much, and so

(39:17):
there's a lot of interference, alot of teething going on then,
which also can create someinterference in the water.
So we work through that rightthe first like three years of
their life.
They're teething, and so thenthey know how to do these skills
with that in mind, which alsogoes back to like the time
commitment, you know, overseveral weeks.
We're going to catch them on abad day, we're going to catch

(39:37):
them on a day when they, youknow, maybe aren't feeling super
great, we're going to catchthem on a day where they're
teething.
Or we're going to catch them ona day when it's their birthday
and they're really excited, andthen they don't want to, you
know, and so we catch them in inall of the things, and so I
then get to see what does thislook like in a normal setting,
on a normal random day, and workthrough that with them, because

(40:03):
sometimes there will be somefunky things that we'll see, and
then you guys will see that inthe pool and you'll have already
known.
Oh okay, miss Jamie said maybewe shouldn't do that if they're
acting this way.

Jason Wagner (40:18):
Yeah, awesome, anything else you got.

Rachel Wagner (40:21):
I did.
I'm trying to recall them all.
There's so many things thatcome up as they're talking.

Jason Wagner (40:25):
I'm like there was actually something that
happened with Scarlett becausekind of like, as she came back,
so she was really good with you,you got her in a really good,
comfortable phase and then wetook some time off and then we
came back and there was like abig regression, that kind of
happened.
It was like she forgoteverything.
I guess you know that's normalfor people, you kind of get

(40:46):
rusty of it.
But I was really kind ofsurprised of how drastic it was,
for sure.

Jamie Berger (40:53):
So for Scarlett specifically, a lot of it was
driven emotionally.
So physically she rememberedthe skills.
There was a little bit oftuning up that needed to be done
because, as their body which iswhy we love maintenance
maintenance is like just so funto see because that's where you
see the skills turn to thrills.
But as their bodies grow, theirbody feels very different in

(41:17):
the water.
So one day they may be like Iwas really good at that, and
then today I'm getting in thewater.
So one day they may be like Iwas really good at that and then
today I'm getting in the water,my body feels totally different
.
I'm not so sure.
And so when it's emotionallydriven there's kind of a ripple
effect of them, like there'shesitation again because they're
like this is going to be hard,but I can do hard things Right,

(41:38):
and so it's when we can keep upwith that we stay ahead of those
emotional curves.
I think a lot of like Scarlettspecifically.
She does really well, knowingthe concept of why she's doing
this Right.
When we take the holidays off,she's like I'm not swimming a
ton, you know.
But then when your pool is backopen she's like ah, this is why

(42:02):
I go there.
So I bet you this next time,when we take a break over the
holidays and stuff, you won'tsee that again, because she's
old enough and then she's beenthrough it before and she has
the concept of these skillsaren't in just just Mitch, miss
Jamie's pool, they're everywhere.
I have to do this.
I have to do it in my backyardpool.
I have to do it at midtown.
I have to do this I have to doit in my backyard pool, I have
to do it at Midtown, I have todo it everywhere, and so I think

(42:23):
that's why I love maintenance.
If we can stay ahead of thosegrowth curves and those
emotional ripple effects, thenit helps their confidence levels
this at lessons all the timeand it was so helpful and even
enlightening for me.

Rachel Wagner (42:40):
You're like, well , she's probably gone through
quite a bit of a growth spurttoo, and I did go back and look
and I'm like, wow, over the last12 months she's gained or she's
grown three inches.
Three inches and like sevenpounds over the last year, like
huge growth spurts, right.
And when you're like her bodyprobably feels different in the
water, right, like her legs arelonger, she weighs more, it's a
totally different feeling andthat's a lot of change in a

(43:01):
short period of time.
You know we really only tookoff one session, so she was
swimming, I think, up untilNovember, december, and then we
braked until April, so it waslike four months.
But considering, you know, allthat had changed, it was
significant.
And then I was going to say too,you were sharing like the
confidence thing and kind oflike the power struggle as you

(43:21):
were describing that.
I'm like that is literallyScarlett, like she does not want
to do things that she's notgood at and it takes her like we
were going through this at theplayground yesterday.
She wants to win and everything.
She's super, super competitive,but if she can't she wants to
give up and fall away, right.
And so we were able to witnessthat through the lessons that
you were doing with her.
She just had to gain theconfidence, and now she's doing

(43:44):
flips off the deck into the poolbecause she's so confident,
right, it's all thrills now.

Jason Wagner (43:50):
Yeah, it is all thrills.

Jamie Berger (43:51):
Sometimes, I have parents come back to me and
they're like waiting for thatmoment when the skills turn to
thrills, right.

Rachel Wagner (44:02):
And then when they turn to, thrills.

Jamie Berger (44:03):
They're like well, we go back.
Yeah, it's too much where theyhad a little bit of caution,
because now they have the skillsand they have the thrills.
They can just launch themselvesin the water and be totally
fine, and the parents are likebut like, maybe I don't want
them to launch themselves in thewater exactly.

Rachel Wagner (44:17):
Yeah, a little too much thrill yeah but you
helped me with that too.
Where you're like okay, youjust have to reinforce, you know
, before too many thrills comeinto the pool or before we're
agreeable to put on your pedaljumper, you know cause your
friends have it on and you haveto show me X number of floats
and X number of swim, float,swim.
So I know that that skill isstill there for this session in
the pool.

Jamie Berger (44:37):
Yep, so that's the when and then.
Right, when you show me thatyou can do X, y and Z, then you
can play around for 20 minutesor two hours or whatever it is.
So I look at it as the conceptof you have to earn the right to
goof off and then, at the endof the day, you also have to
show me again, because aftergoofing off, you have to prove
to me that you've still retainedyour skills, and so if there's

(44:59):
a little bit of funkinesshappening, okay, well, next time
we go to the pool, you're notgetting in for the first five
minutes or whatever it is.
Or if in the beginning youdon't want to show me your
skills, you're going to have tosit poolside no fingers, no toes
, no, nothing for like twominutes.
Right, I've had to do that withmy daughter like twice, and
then never again.
I look at the water, as it is aprivilege to be able to be in

(45:21):
the water.
If you're not respecting theprivilege, then you don't get it
right.
Like, the water is a seriousthing.
It is the most dangerous thingon the planet for our kids,
right, five and under, and soit's the number one reason that
they don't make it tokindergarten, which is really
sad.
It's above car accidents, it'sabove birth defects, it's above
all of that.
So you have to respect it, eventhough you have these skills

(45:44):
and I know you have these skillslike you have to play by my
rules in and around the pool.
There's no options.

Rachel Wagner (45:51):
You gave me some other tips because I said we've
only owned the pool for a year,so there's so much to learn
right away and I was wonderingif you could share some more of
those tips.
I'll give an example of whenyou gave, of when you're
wrapping the kids in a towel bythe pool.
You know I did this all of thetime.
I actually catch myself stilldoing it.
Sometimes I'm like no, no, no,where you wrap them up and then
kind of tuck the towel in sothen they don't have to hold on

(46:13):
to it and they're all bundledand warm.
Well, pool safety wise, that'snot a great choice because if
they fall in they can't releasetheir arms and their legs.
So even if they have the skill,they're not going to be able to
float.
So do you have maybe speak tothat a little more and other
tips for pool safety?

Jamie Berger (46:30):
Yeah.
So you know, there are a lot ofkids that will have the other
side, the unfortunate drowningside, because they were bundled
up in a towel and people justsee a towel at the bottom of the
pool which is like really awful, right, and so you kind of want
to extend their arms out, letthem grab the ends of the towel
with their hands and then theywrap their arms around

(46:52):
themselves Because then, if theywere like to take a tumble,
they can release themselves ontheir own.
I think number one is alwaysbeing in the water with a parent
, right, I mean, I think youguys get to a certain point with
Scarlett where, like, you guyscan sit poolside and you trust
her and she's fine.
But you know, the two-year-olds, the three-year-olds, you're
probably going to want to be inthe pool with them all the time.

(47:13):
We create that routine withoutreally saying it during lessons,
because you guys hand them tome, right, at a certain point
they walk, walk or run up to me.
But we're kind of creating thatconcept of like you're being
invited in by an adult.
I think, as the kids get olderand they have more of a concept,
talking to them about exitpoints, you know, once they have

(47:36):
these survival skills.
You want to talk to them aboutexit points, right, hey, there's
a ladder right here.
Hey, there's a ledge right here, hey, there's stairs right here
.
And then kind of, when they'repracticing their skills, talking
them through that, hey, wheredo you want to go?
Where do you think you shouldgo?
When they're in their float,they can listen to you, whether
they choose to or not.

(47:56):
That's a different discussion,right, but they can definitely
listen to you.
So those types of things Also.
Water watchers, designatingwater watchers.
Right In the drowning community, we always say if everyone's
watching the water, no one'swatching the water.
A lot of drowning incidentswill happen at a party and it's
like there were 15 adults rightthere, but that's because
somebody thought somebody elsewas watching the pool, but

(48:19):
nobody was watching the pool,right.
And then those layers ofprotection which go.
You know locks which you guyshave on your house, you have
alarms, you have gates.
Knowing CPR and first aid isalso really beneficial as
parents, because if somethingwas to happen, there's a lot a
huger success rate on thebackend If you can perform CPR

(48:42):
right, right away and thensurvival swim on top of that too
.
But one day I hope that I haveenough time to maybe do like a
CPR class, like host it at thehotel that I teach out of, but I
just haven't had the time.
Like I keep saying to peoplethe last like three summers too,

(49:03):
I'm like for whoever has a poolin their backyard I'll come and
like teach out of your pool forone day.
You know, do like a donationlesson or something, but I just
I haven't had the time.

Jason Wagner (49:13):
Yeah, yeah.
How did you choose the hoteland the?

Jamie Berger (49:17):
Yeah, I've taught out of like aquatic facilities.
I taught out of the JCC for alittle while too.
Honestly, I just really likehaving the pool to ourselves.
We can also change thetemperature of the pool a lot
more, so I like, cause I'm in itfor so long.
You know, we keep it about 88degrees, which is still 10
degrees colder than your normalbody temperature, and so hence
why sometimes I wear a wetsuit.

(49:39):
I'm also allergic to the pool.
I'm allergic to the chemicalswhich is crazy.
Yeah, I'm allergic to bromine,didn't have that allergy growing
up, still have no problem withchlorine, but the hotel that I
teach out of right now isbromine and it has caused some
issues, but that's okay.
So I really like just when Itaught out of aquatic facilities

(50:01):
.
Sometimes I would be teachingduring aerobics and the older
ladies in aerobics hated cryingkids in the pool so they would
come up to me and scream at mesaying I was torturing kids and
so it just wasn't always awelcoming environment.
And then like so me as aninstructor, it would rattle me
and then it would also like Ijust feel bad for the parents.

(50:26):
You know, I don't want.
I don't want as a parent myself.
I don't want anyone to judgethe decisions that you're making
as a parent.
So it is no one's business whatyou're choosing as a path for
your kid.
And eventually we all know thatthose tears stop.
And so it was funny becausewhen I was eventually leaving
those facilities they'd be likeoh, but it was so fun to see the
kids actually gain theconfidence in their skills.
I'm like well, you're kind ofthe reason why I'm leaving.

(50:47):
But also, you know, I pay rent,and so rent at a hotel is a
little bit less expensive thanlike an aquatic facility.

Jason Wagner (50:57):
All good stuff here.
How do you deal with that?
I guess when you were firststarting and all the crying was
happening, like, how do youstomach that You're a mother?
I mean, rachel always tells methat whenever she hears the kids
crying, it impacts herdifferently than it does me.

Jamie Berger (51:13):
You know, and now, now I think it's reversed in my
family, because I'm so callousto it, because I hear it all day
.
And so then, like my kid willbe crying and my husband will be
like do you hear her?
And I'm like no, actually, no,I don't.
Yeah, so when I first startedout, well, so my daughter, when

(51:34):
I was in the corporate world andshe started the lessons, she
cried the whole first sessionlike screaming, wailing, crying.
And so I have that experienceas a swim parent sitting
poolside and I was like I don'tknow, I don't know, but like
this is cool, I don't reallyknow what's happening yet.
But then when I saw herself-rescue and I saw her
floating for two minutes byherself at eight and a half

(51:56):
months old, I was like that'sworth all the tears.
I kind of joke with parents nowthat, like, if they cry
throughout their first fewsessions or whatever it is,
until they decided, like decideto relinquish the control, they
just have a built in alarmsystem.
Right, if they make their wayto water by themselves, they're
probably going to be mad aboutit.
So you're going to hear it,you're going to hear it first

(52:16):
before you see them.
So it's also kind of like whenI was in the vet industry and we
dealt with euthanasia and stufflike that all the time you
become callous to that as well.
So the crying it doesn't reallybother me anymore.
I feel that sometimes I can likefeel the parent's energy next
to the pool, and so that's whereI like I'm doing a lot of
talking, I'm explaining a lot ofthings, or if the parent is

(52:39):
still just like kind of in theirmind of like I don't, I can't
listen to you while my kid'sscreaming and like uncomfortable
, so then at that point I'lljust, you know, not talk and
skill the kid and try and skillthe kid really fast.
So then the parent sees whatthey're capable of, and then
that's where we all come intothe.
I can do hard things.

Rachel Wagner (53:00):
You know the fascinating thing about the
crying cause.
I've obviously seen both ourkids scream in the pool
initially for a long time.
But the fascinating thing Ithought about it was I really
can't think maybe there was oneor two lessons, but I don't even
know if there was that everytime with the crying there was
still skill building happening.
Like Scarlett I remember cryingthe most.

(53:21):
Layla adjusted a lot morequickly as she was younger, but
Scarlett kind of had that powerstruggle for a really, really
long time and, and I think, fearlike lack of confidence or
whatever, but she was stilldoing the skills you know, and
she was still progressing in theskills each time and then the
second she got out she was done.

(53:42):
And then it was like okay, bye,miss Jamie, thanks, I get a
sticker.
Awesome.
You know like it was.
It was really just for that 10minutes and there was still
progression happening.
So it was really more of like Ifelt like eventually it was
really more like a complainingthat I had to do it and not as
much of a fear because at theend you know she was fine with
you.
You know it's like it was justhard.

(54:03):
It was hard to get through.

Jamie Berger (54:04):
It's the moment before the hard workout you
don't want to do.
Yeah, you know how many timeshave I sat outside the yoga room
and been like I'm at the gymand I'm convincing myself in my
head that it's okay to just gohome, yeah, and how many times I
actually did Right?
I don't want to admit that.
Yeah, why would you want towork out really hard?

Rachel Wagner (54:22):
Yeah, I think that was a great way to explain
it.
When you explained it that wayearlier.
It's like nobody wants to dothings they're not good at,
that's totally scarlet, and likeit's hard until you know skills
and then thrills Like.
That was just such a great wayto explain it.

Jason Wagner (54:35):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
That's actually my big takeawayfrom this whole episode is the
skills before thrills and justunderstanding that that's a
concept.
And once you know that that's aconcept, you get a lot more
comfortable with it.
And I think, as a parent, wehave a very hard time reacting

(54:56):
to our kids when they are cryingand when they're in a
potentially they think dangeroussituation, because, like you
said, the water is one of themost dangerous things on earth
and I think the there's.
There's a lot of work thatparents need to do internally
when they step into this type ofthing, but knowing the results
are going to come, yeah, andlike once you know that, like
the results are going to come,like it's like learning how to

(55:17):
ride a bike.

Jamie Berger (55:18):
Yeah, that's not easy, right.
Learning how to ride a bike,yeah, that's not easy.
We're dealing with thestruggles of that right now.
I could probably do it andteach it, knowing what I know
about.
Like teaching kids inreinforcements in an hour, right
, but I, my brain sometimes justis exhausted from thinking and
talking and stuff like that allday.

(55:38):
But it is not easy.
It is hard work to learn how toride a bike.
There's a bunch of things thatare happening all at once and
it's not very enjoyable for kidsright off the bat.
Right, there's falling, there'scrying for everyone involved
and it's similar.
But once they then realize thatthey can do it, they're having

(56:00):
a ton of fun.
Realize that they can do it,they're having a ton of fun.
So it's not just swimming, butit's a lot of things.
You know how many kids go tosoccer and hate it right away.
They're like running.
I don't want to run that manytimes.
There's a bunch of kids runningat me, there's balls flying, a
coach is yelling at me I don'tknow what's happening Screaming
colors I don't even know allthese colors.

(56:21):
But then once they like go afew times and they practice,
they get more comfortable.
I think that's with everything,right.
Literally with everything it'swith us as adults too.
Like in our generation, like weget uncomfortable very easy and
we just want so, we want to fixthat for our kids.
But there, our kids are so muchmore capable than we ever give

(56:43):
them credit, and I think that'salso something that you see
through.
The progress of ISR is that, ohmy God, I'm just doing all of
these things for my kids,sometimes as us, as parents.
It's just easier for us to justdo it for them, but they are
totally capable.

Rachel Wagner (56:59):
They're so much more capable than we give them
credit for yeah, yeah, so much,totally capable.
There's so much more capablethan we give them credit for.
Yeah, yeah, so much morecapable.

Jason Wagner (57:06):
So early.
Yeah, yeah, so sorry.
How we end up wrapping up theseshows is just kind of the
biggest takeaway, and we eachkind of kind of go down from the
conversation.
So that was mine, which was theskills before thrills.
Rachel, it was your kind of bigtakeaway from.

Rachel Wagner (57:23):
I have two.
The last few episodes we've had.
I've always had two, because Ican't decide.
One is a quick one, though thetime it takes to drown.
I think you said 24 seconds, 23seconds, that was way shorter
than I was even thinking.
For some reason.
I was thinking it was closer toa minute.
So that was a big takeaway.
That's quick.
And then the other one was theanalogy we're just kind of
talking about.
It is you don't learn to walkor crawl or stand up.

(57:44):
You know once a week.
You know for 30 minutes orwhatever.
And I I've talked with youabout this.
I the whole like concept andstructure of how ISR is set up
kind of opened my eyes to how toget your kids to learn
something and like this privatelesson, short period of time,
but repetitively, five days aweek.

(58:05):
You know for seven or eightweeks or whatever.
They learn so much more in thattype of setup and then you can
move to like a weeklymaintenance lesson.
It's opened my eyes to otheractivities that our kids are in
and thinking, okay, does it makemore sense to make an
investment on the front end?
So I've talked about this withgymnastics, because I was so
frustrated with gymnastics forlike a year.

(58:26):
Yes, I'm just like there's somany kids in the class and they
do like an obstacle course typething and it's great, she's
exploring, she's learning, she'sbuilding you know strength for
sure by walking around thosemats.
But I'm like she'll get to asection where she's supposed to
do a somersault, for example,and she doesn't know what to do.
She just kind of flops on themat and then keeps going because
there's nobody there to showher.

(58:47):
And I just had these moments,like if she just did a few
lessons where they showed herone-on-one what to do at each
station, she then would get somuch more out of the class and
more independently because shewould know what to do.
But when she doesn't know whatto do and no one's there to
teach her, you know it's justkind of a waste.
And so we have talked aboutthis so much of like does it
make more sense to do aninvestment on the front end for

(59:09):
other things, for a specificcoach, and then move more into,
like, the group setting, becausethen their confidence is so
much higher, they're going toget so much more out of it and
It'll be more thrills than youknow scare and lack of
confidence.

Jamie Berger (59:21):
Yeah, I mean when you said that analogy.

Rachel Wagner (59:22):
You don't learn to walk or crawl.
You know in a day You're right.

Jamie Berger (59:26):
You don't learn anything that way, we've
definitely talked about thegymnastics.

Rachel Wagner (59:28):
Yes.

Jamie Berger (59:29):
Because I've said it with dance too.
I'm like if they would just dothis twice a week for 30 minutes
instead of once a week for anhour.
This was like back when she wasin like tap and ballet, I'm like
, and then if you, if you justask, if you teach them a two
count for a whole 30 minutes andthen the next time you do the

(59:49):
two count and then the fourcount, like you're gonna see so
much more progress than tryingto teach them an eight count
once a week for an hour, likethey're not listening after 10
minutes, right, or you know,probably in those settings maybe
more like 20 minutes, likethey're not listening after 10
minutes, Right, or you knowprobably in those settings,
maybe more like 20 minutes orlike not listening anymore.
But yeah, yeah, yeah.

Jason Wagner (01:00:06):
Yeah, I mean.
I mean, individualizedinstruction is always the best
way to go.
It's always the financialcommitment, though, and is it
worth it?
Right?

Rachel Wagner (01:00:14):
That's that's what everybody just kind of
their heads.
In this case, when you'retalking about swimming safety,
it's like a thousand percentworth it.
Oh, this is the best investmentwe've made in our kids.
Yeah, yeah, hands down, I woulddo it over again.
Oh yeah, over again, oh yeahrecommend it to anybody.

Jason Wagner (01:00:29):
So awesome, miss jamie.
What was your big takeaway fromthis conversation?

Jamie Berger (01:00:36):
that I'm like just a great person in your kids'
eyes.
Yeah, I love hearing thatfeedback.
It really makes me so emotionalbecause you know, I it is.
It is hard.
You kind of have to be a littlebit crazy to do what we do
every day and deal with cryingkids every day and nervous
parents and all that stuff.

(01:00:56):
And that's just in the water,right, and then all the admin
stuff that comes with it.
And that's just in the water,right, and then all the admin
stuff that comes with it.
But knowing that I'm making adifference in people's lives and
a topic at the dinner table, itjust it warms my heart and
makes it all worth it.

Jason Wagner (01:01:11):
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, you're definitely a big
topic at our dinner tables.

Rachel Wagner (01:01:14):
Yeah, seriously, every day.
I can talk about you every day.
I think Scarlett made a picturethis morning asking me how to
spell your name.
I love it.

Jason Wagner (01:01:23):
It's funny, like whenever we pick out the outfit
for the day, they're like oh,are we going swimming with Miss
Jamie?

Rachel Wagner (01:01:28):
I'm like no, I'm putting on a t-shirt Every
single day, every single day.

Jamie Berger (01:01:33):
Those 6 am time slots Right, yeah, that's what
it is.
Yeah, that's the reinforcementthere.

Jason Wagner (01:01:38):
Yeah, it's so funny.
Well, thank you so much.
I guess if somebody wanted toget a hold of you to kind of
talk further or sign up formaybe your schedule, if they can
squeeze in, what's the best wayto get in touch with you?

Jamie Berger (01:01:51):
The best way is to start off by my website, so
that would be safeswimisrcom,and then you can also email me,
which is jamie J-A-M-I-E, dotBerger, b-e-r-g-e-r at
infantswimcom, and either ofthose work really well.
I do have some openings forAugust and for October, and then

(01:02:12):
I'm starting to plan for 2025.

Jason Wagner (01:02:22):
People are already signing up for January and
April next year.

Jamie Berger (01:02:24):
Yeah, actually, you said something offline
earlier where you said thatdoing the lessons in the fall
and winter is actually preparingyou for next swim season, right
, yes, Teaching in the fall andwinter is my favorite time to
teach new students because wehave time in the state of
Illinois, right, we have timebefore you're really in a pool
again, so we have the time toget from skills to thrills,
right, you do that initialsession, they take a little

(01:02:45):
break, process everything thatthey've learned, come back for
some maintenance and you'reready to go.
I don't teach new students inthe summer anymore because my
philosophy is is that I want youto be ready for summer before
summer.
These are really hard skills tolearn and so if I'm teaching
them for 10 minutes a day butthen they're going to a pool for

(01:03:06):
two hours, they're unlearning alot of things.
So it just takes a lot longerand again just creates more
frustration for the kids.
So that's why I you know, Ijust do maintenance, really, in
the summer.
I teach new babies of familiesthat I already know in the
summer, but outside of that thenI'll just do new students all
throughout the rest of the year.

Rachel Wagner (01:03:26):
I like it.
Yeah, that makes sense.

Jason Wagner (01:03:27):
Yeah, that makes sense, all right.
Well, thank you.
I guess we'll wrap up here andthank you for coming on.
I really appreciate it.

Jamie Berger (01:03:34):
It was great.

Jason Wagner (01:03:35):
You were fantastic , thank you.
Everything you said, likethere's so many takeaways here.
So if you found any value inthe show, we would really
appreciate it, and I'm sure MissJamie would really appreciate
it too If you did share it somany nuggets in this one.
So thanks again for listeningand we will catch you on the
next one.