66. Unfiltered Success: Wonderful Togbey on Building A Real Estate Empire, 75 Hard, and Credit Card Mastery

Episode Transcript
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Jason Wagner (00:00):
Welcome back to another episode of the Real Life
Investing Podcast with Jasonand Rachel Wagner.
We have an awesome guest withus today, a guy that does
amazing things in real estatebut also.
This guy is like he'smultifaceted, he's a 75-hour
champion.
He's got just these life hacksof how to travel the world and

(00:20):
how to utilize your credit cardrewards and like how to just do
some really cool things and thetricks behind that and make
things like a lot more feasibleand so wonderful.
Tugby, welcome to the show.

Wonderful Togbey (00:33):
Thank you, I'm so happy you're here, man.
I appreciate it.
What is up?

All right.
So, first off, I want to cover75 Heart, because that is one of
those.
It's one of those programs thatyou know obviously very dear to
our hearts.
I mean, what made you want todo the program?
And I mean I think you did itback in like 2021, right.
Yes, yes and have you doneanything like since to kind of
like keep up with some of thosehabits that you learned on 75

(01:00):
Hard.

Yes, all right , so let's get right into it.
Yeah, done 75 hard.
Yes, all right, so let's getright into it.
So, yes, I started 75 hardJanuary 1st or 2nd of 2021, you
know, right after.
Well, in between COVID, while Iwas at home for the past you
know few months I decided well,I'm at my heaviest now and I
don't like this.
Right, I've learned about 75hard.
I need to change somethingabout it, which I did, and I got

(01:23):
through it.
It was phenomenal, it was hard.
Actually, I want to get intosomething right off the top,
because I feel like, aftercompleting 75 hard, there's one
thing that I found out that Imay have to give back my 75 hard
completion card here today.
All right, so here's how I doit.
Right?
So you have to do two workoutsevery day, right, I would

(01:46):
typically go get my firstworkout and when I'm done at the
gym, I would immediately get arunning Right and count that as
two.
Right?
So, actually, as of a fewmonths ago because I was telling
a friend that, hey, I love 75hard I haven't done anything
else since then and I can kindof see that I don't have that
discipline and things that Iwant to do.
I feel like I have these goalsand I looked at my 2022 board.

(02:09):
You know, I got a few thingschecked off, you know, and 2021
was great at that because,because I did 75 hard, it helped
me do a few other things.
Right, I haven't done anythingelse since then.
Family happened, babieshappened, so I looked at that
and I was okay, I'm gettingready to do this.
And he told me well, bro, yougotta you have to do two
workouts with a four-hour gap inbetween them, so I'm taking

(02:33):
your 75 hard completion cardaway from you and you have to do
it again.

Rachel Wagner (02:36):
So so then I'm all right, I guess maybe because
I didn't do that.

Maybe that's why I've kind of softened on a
couple of things since then.
But I, I actually came on heretoday to say and I'm just going
to get into it and I'm going toneed you guys to hold me
accountable that I did it, but Ifeel like I need to redo it.

So yeah, hell, yeah, you know, here's one thing
that I love about you Wonderfulis that one?
First off, your name.
Your name is phenomenal.
It's phenomenal, mr wonderful.
And then, but second, dude, youare so.
You're so transparent, dude,you're transparent with
everything that you do.
You are this real estate phenom.

(03:18):
You know doing these huge majorprojects and you're very
successful with it, but you alsoshare, like the downside stuff.

Oh yeah.

Right, you share the losses and you share like
hey, I was actually, I think Iwas watching one of your videos.
It was, like you know, you were200,000 over budget of what you
were expecting and you sharedthat publicly.
And then this is why I love you,man, because you know I feel
like there's so many likesunshines and rainbows and you

(03:48):
know it's hard to come acrosslike true, legitimate people,
that they're just like dude.
I'm going after this it'sreally hard and I'm going to
share the whole you know wholeside of things the good, the bad
, the ugly.

And that's what, that's what you do and
that's what, literally, you justdid with 75 hard.
Yeah, I didn't get four hoursin between.
You know, like you said, I'vecome to find out, after you know
, getting into real estate, thatsome of the people that I
learned from I looked up to someof the things that I've been
doing, that I was, I would go tothem for help.
They actually haven't done, orthey, you know, what did you do

(04:36):
when so-and-so happened?
Oh, you know you would get someadvice that you just know that
someone who's gotten, you know,punched in the mouth wouldn't

(04:57):
tell you this, because I cantell, just because of how you
would approach the situation,that you haven't actually been
there, right.
So that's why I'm always, I wantto always share those things
and also inspire, because Ishare them and I try to find a
balance, right, becausesometimes knowing all the, all
the behind the scenes of thingsmay actually make you want to be
like, well, you know what, Idon't know if I want to do this

(05:17):
right, but for the people thatare actually going to put in the
work, you know, I feel likeknowing what's on the way,
what's possible, you know, cango either way good or bad helps
you prepare mentally for that.
So then when you're in front ofthat situation, you know you're
better informed, betterprepared and you can face it
head on.
That's kind of how I approachyeah, my sharing or sometimes

(05:39):
oversharing approach of life ingeneral.

Yeah, I love it, man, I love it, so all right.
So, going back to 75, hard, allright you, but you did 75 days
of this and then you justrealized that after you did,
after you completed the program,that you're like, oh shit, I
actually sort of had space inbetween the two workouts, yes,
but you still, you still wentthrough the tasks and reach what
are the, what are the tasks of75 hard.

So two 45 minute workouts.
One must be outside and drink agallon of water.
Read 10 pages of a nonfictionbook, follow a diet of your
choice, but no cheat meals, noalcohol, and then take a
progress picture every day.
And I love that you just likeremembered all that it's like
yeah, well, I've been thinkingabout it but one thing I would
note, because with the thingthat you're saying you missed

(06:23):
the consecutive workouts, Iwould agree that they do say
you're not supposed to do itconsecutively, but you did it
pretty early.
The program, I feel like atthat point was still fairly new
and so some of the rules, Ithink, were like a little hard
to distinguish, depending uponwhere you first heard about the
program and like where you gotthe rules from.
So I, I could see how thatcould happen.
You know you're right.
I, I could see how that couldhappen.

(06:43):
You know You're right, I thinkthat's what it is.

I don't, cause I heard about it, you know,
cause I was telling other peopleabout it.
I hear you should do this andthat's when I found out about
you know all these theconsecutive rule.
But you know, hey, I gotta, Igotta do it how it's supposed to
be done and I just feel likeit's.
You know, it's one of thosethings think I learned about 75,

(07:06):
how hard is, and and I thinkabout anything, any program that
ends like that right is it'sgreat to get you to jolt you and
burn habit.
You know, start habits right andget in, the, get in the mode,
get in the zone, but you stillhave to figure out a way to keep
that stimulus going after thefact right because, there's a
lot of things, and just in lifein general that I've, you know,

(07:26):
I would think about a lot ofthings that, once you do it, or
you would just become thisperson who now is this is just
what you do now all of a sudden,right, like I would.
I would think honestly, I wouldthink, okay, now that I've
become, now that I've completed75 hard, automatically going to
become someone who works outtwice a day, right?
Or I'm just going to becomesomeone who eats, who doesn't

(07:49):
eat cake or who doesn't drink.
You know, it will just be easyto do those things because I
completed 75 hard and actuallythat's not the case, right, if
you, if you let go, or, afterthe fact, if you don't find a
way to you, have to continuechallenging yourself, right,
it's going to help you buildthis pattern.
And you have to realize at thatpoint that, hey, I'm kind of, uh

(08:09):
, a lot further than I was whenI started and I should not, you
know, give up on certain things.
Right, which I'll honestly,again, I did give up on certain
things that I, that I decided topick back up on and I, and when
I realized that, okay, when Igo through those slumps, all
right, it's been a week or two Ihaven't hit the gym Like I need
to do this, right Cause nowthat, now that I know that I can

(08:31):
do it right when I I can know,I know that I can go to, I can
have, uh, my, my daughter'sbirthday was my first year
birthday was around that time.
Everybody was here, everybodywas eating cake and everybody
was eating good food and I waslike nope, it's, you know, it's
eight o'clock, you know that'sthe diet I was on.
I wasn't doing so many fasting.
I could tell everybody else.
I was strong enough to say youknow I, you know this doesn't

(08:55):
follow the plan that I need to,that I've given myself to follow
Right, so it gave me that powerto do it.
So I think it's good to havesomething like that, like 75
hard, that gets you through it,but you have to find ways to
start another cycle and I thinkthat's what 75 life or like no,
the one year right.

They live hard, Right.
So.

I think you just have to find ways to do
that.
And for people like myself thatyou know out there, that have
done something and all of asudden don't feel like, oh man,
I didn't get these superpowersthat I would expect to get right
, and like even as a parent,sometimes, you know, I would
think now that I'm a dad, right,there are certain things that

(09:37):
I'm just going to be able to donow because I've been given this
superpower, right, it's justnot that way that I find in
things you just do the work andit's just consistent with it and
eventually you change as thatperson that you want to become,
but you still 100% have to putin the work, and it's every day

(09:57):
and it doesn't end.

Yeah yeah, you bring up a lot of good points.
It's a program to kind of getyou back on track is what I've
recognized.
But we've had to do it.
I mean I've completed it threetimes.
But the reason that I've goneback to it was because I fell
off right and it was.
I was like man.
You know, it is hard to developthe habits and they say like
habits really kind of developafter like 70 some days, like

(10:23):
that's why he chose like 75 days, big round number like that.
But I don't think that's right.
Like dude, I think I think youneed, I think you need over a
year of like intense disciplineto kind of like really really
shake your whole like habitsystem.
And because now I finally I'm aguy that I work out every day.

(10:43):
I don't do two workouts, but Iwork out every day because I've
recognized after the three timesthat I've done it.
and all of that time, like it'sall of a sudden it beat into my
head, All right that man youknow, when I do work out, I have
the best days ever and, like,I'm mentally sharp and, like you
know, if there's a day that Imiss, I'm really kind of
sluggish.
But you don't recognize thatstuff until you, like, you put

(11:04):
yourself into the mode of I'mgoing to do a program because
I've heard great things of itand then I'm going to continue
to try and keep thosedisciplines alive and maybe I
fall back, I fall off, but if Iwant to get back on track again
there, it is Exactly right.

I can, I can dial it back in, I can turn it
on Right, yeah, and so, for sure, I need to do that again.

Hey man, I mean we're probably at the same point
.
Maybe we're ready to do itagain.

In my mind I'm doing it in the fall.

Yeah, yeah, as soon as you have the baby.

Yeah, and get through the first three months.

Rachel is pregnant with her third child, and so
the baby is due in May.

But you were already talking like as soon as
I have this baby, I'm starting.
Yeah, I'll need to find thediscipline again, but yeah, Okay
.
So a couple of questions foryou.
So you did.
You had one kid when you did 75hard.

Yes.

Okay.
So I want to see if you couldkind of speak a little bit to
the balance of having kids whiledoing the program and what your
wife kind of thought about itand just like if there was
anything going into it that youwere like, gosh, this is going
to be really hard, and if thosemoments came for you at all.

Yeah, the amazing thing about having a
partner is that they can holdyou accountable right and they
can actually make things easierbecause once you get started and
you show that you're, you'recommitted right, which for me,
and when I told my wife about it, she was like, yeah, that's
crazy, you know, there's no wayI can do it.
Good luck to you, though.
I think you could.
So right Then, even that firstone, she was all right.

(12:32):
I think you can do this, babe,like knowing I don't I don't
really think she believed itthen, but she was all right, I
think you can do this.
So, and having her actuallyallowed me to stick to the goal.
So she'll do things in themorning, so that I would have

(12:54):
time.
Like sometimes I would think,okay, I'm just going to knock
out to work out, or you know,very late at night she's like,
no, you got to.
If you skip this, it's going tobe hard to get all six
activities in there.
So she helped me end up in thatstandpoint making sure that I
stick to the goal.
You know sometimes where Iwould travel I think we went out
to Vegas and I was running on astrip and you know she helped

(13:17):
me make sure I got those in,because I would try to.
Well, maybe this is somewherethat I think I was like trying
to do it in like a coveredparking lot.
Oh no, this is an outside.
You got to get outside and doit.

You did that in Vegas.
Yeah, how brutal lots.
Oh no, this is an outside.

Yeah, you gotta get outside and do it.
So, yeah, yeah, how brutal.
Yeah, so I mean I think justhaving someone there I'll pull
those things.
Um, but did it make it hard, uh, having a kid?
If you're on the sidelinewondering if you know, honestly,

(13:55):
I don't think so.
I mean I didn't try it, youknow, without kids, so I can't
really speak to that fact, but Iwas able to do it.
You know, having a daughter wehave two now, so I'll see what
that challenge looks like.
But I mean, when you reallythink about it, it's more in the
mind game, you know, than it iswhat you have going on at home.

So, yeah, yeah, it's so much a mind game.
Yeah, yeah, that's why it's amental toughness program.
Right, it's a mental toughnessprogram.
It's not a women's program,it's a mental toughness program.

It's a mental toughness program, yeah.

So you have two kids at home.
I do Two daughters, Twodaughters.
What are their ages?

Five and nine months, five and nine months.
Man, you're in the thick of it.

Yeah, yeah, that's awesome.

So how do you do all the things that you do?
Because are you working a jobtoo?
I am, yeah, bro, all right.
So you're a full-time realestate investor, you have a
full-time job, full-timesoftware engineer and a family
Family and you guys travel allthe time, yep.

How do you do all this, I mean honestly, when
I oh man, I just don't want tosay my wife again, man, because
it's like, here's the thing.
We as a family got together and, well, these are the things
that we want to do, right, and Ithink we read this book I'm
going to forget it now, but thiswas a book by Elena Cardone and

(15:22):
I'll send you the title so youcan share here but it was about
helping each other accomplishgoals, where there's a role that
you play to help your partner,you know, achieve certain goals,
right.
So we came up, so sometimes wewould and I think it was more of
you know me being this warrior,right, it was going about going

(15:46):
out and figuring out thesethings and her helping me
accomplish those things so that,as a family, we can accomplish
them right.
So a lot of things come to thatlike I get up, she, you know,
if I have, when I have to dowork, sometimes, when I need to
take time to do work, I'll lether know.

(16:06):
Hey, today's a it's a busierday than I need to do and I need
to focus on certain things andshe helps make sure home is okay
, right, whether you know,taking care of the kids, because
I need to.
Sometimes I have a lot going onup here, right, with all those
things.
I wouldn't be able to do allthose things without being able

(16:26):
to maintain the job, because Ido have to.
I don't have hours, right, Ican be checking on projects,
rental properties, in the middleof night.
Sometimes, right, sometimes Ihave to.
I have to leave things at homeand go handle business.
Right, there is certain I'mashamed to say this but certain
things that I I do more for onmy rental properties that they

(16:48):
don't even have the time to dofor at home, right, because, uh,
that is business sometimes, andyou know that does come with
the priority.
That's just what we've chosenfor ourselves for this, for this
period of our season, season ofour lives, and, uh, yeah, I
think that's our game plan andthere's sacrifices that need to
be made in order to, uh, to dothose things.
And you're just doing, and Imean I, I mean I just still

(17:11):
think there's a lot more thatcan be done.
You know it may seem like I'mdoing something, but I tell
myself, man, I can do a lot more.
That's just the truth of it.

I love it, man, and that's just like the drive
that you have right, absolutely.
Where did all that come from?

Well, for me, it's just having a shorter time
horizon.
I want to put it that way Ijust, just, as an immigrant,
moved to the states as a 16 yearold, you know, looking for,
well, I don't I don't know if Iwas 16 I was trying to really

(17:49):
make a living.
I was just trying to.
I was just trying to come toAmerica and and, uh, um, finish
my college and get a good job,right?
So so then I did that,graduated, started working, and
the thing about it is so, havingparents and people that you're
responsible for at a at a youngage, like that makes you, makes

(18:11):
you want to do more than just begood yourself, right?
So I think about myself.
Now I'm good, but I think aboutthe sacrifices and things that
my parents have have made for us, right, and think about how can
I do?
I've been given a lot in orderto do a lot with, so I need to
be able to use thoseopportunities that I have, and

(18:36):
just, I need to be able to usethose to the maximum right and
deliver, have them reach theirhighest potential in life and in
real estate.
That's kind of everything thatI do.
You know, I take old propertiesand turn them into new
properties, properties, you know.
I take the opportunities I wasgiven to be in this country and

(18:58):
turn them into gold.
I guess I can put it that way,can?

you share?
Where are you originally from?

I'm from Togo.
Togo is in West Africa, aFrench-speaking country.
So, uh, yeah, we grew up there.
I, uh, that's where I was bornand raised moved here when I was
16 and I yeah, I, it took meabout seven, eight years before
going back.

(19:26):
As a 16 year old, I think.
I returned around whatever,that is, 23, 24.
And, yeah, it was great, asgreat as it is.
You know, I miss home sometimes, right, and I do have to, and
it costs to do those things,right?
So that's another thing where Ihave a building family here,

(19:46):
but I also have people back homethat are counting on me,
sisters.
So I never forget home, right?
So, and I need to do more inorder to provide.
I think that's the typicalimmigrant story.
But even anyone else too, right, like if you're, you know, born
and raised in in america, youhave parents back home, could

(20:08):
just be a couple of blocks awayand you know, I'm sure this is
not uncommon.

So your parents are back in Togo.

Yeah.

So is there anyone here on your family side?

with you.
Yeah, I have brothers andsisters here.
You've got brothers and sistershere.

And then you also have sisters that are back home
in Togo.
That's right.

We're kind of uh, kind of split, yeah, yeah,
yeah I have a lot of siblings.

What was the?
How many siblings do you have?
Seven, seven, yeah, yeah, yeah.
And you got how many that arehere in the states?
Four here, four here in thestates, yeah, yeah, yeah, cool.
And are they all in Chicago orare they?
No, you're all over the place,oh yeah.

Yeah, texas, north Carolina, maryland.

Okay, yeah, so you're the only one in Chicago,
then yeah, yeah.

So how did you get into real estate or find
like mentors, I guess?
How did you learn about it?
You're coming here at 16 andyour family's kind of spread out
all over the place like how didyou and where'd that desire
come from?
But then also, how did youlearn it?

yeah, so I was in, I was working.
Then I was, I got, you know, Igot my four-year degree.
I was working.
So the plan for us, let me saythis so I didn't really grow up
with an entrepreneurial you knowmindset.
Right, it was go to school andyou'll be good.
You know, try to try.
Let me say this so I didn'treally grow up with an
entrepreneurial mindset.
It was go to school and you'llbe good, try to do your homework

(21:40):
, be smart and everything willtake care of itself, which I did
for the most part.
I went to school, I got goodgrades, graduated and I started
working, then decent salary.
But then I realized how muchworking not working for myself
or having a job still limited mein certain things.
Right, I remember, even afterseven years for some, I got to

(22:02):
go back home.
I was, I think.
I had a two weeks vacation,that and I still had to worry
about work the whole time.
I was there and I was a man I Ihave, but I have bought a house
was like man, I have bought ahouse.
No, I don't think I had boughta house then, but I just
realized that, hey, even withall this money coming in, you

(22:23):
still have to show up for workand there is just not going to
be enough to actually do morethan just take care of every day
.
So, for me, I thought aboutwhat can I do?
Right, so I'm in tech.
And at that time I was.
You know, facebook was hot,right, so tech or app developers

(22:44):
, right.
So I was like man, unless I cancome up with the next Facebook,
I'm screwed.
I don't know how I'm ever goingto be able to reach the sweet
life that, you know, zuckerbergand all these guys have.
So I just couldn't think ofanything Right.
And I remember I actually wentto a tech conference and it was
about I thought it was aboutthere was a talk about

(23:07):
entrepreneurship and thisgentleman that came up talked
about investing in real estate.
He was, so it was supposed tobe a talk about entrepreneurship
into starting apps.
And because he was a realestate investor at that point
and ran his own brokerage no, Ithink it was a broker was he a
broker?
Anyway, he was in real estate,right, and he was going to share

(23:30):
about how you can start yourown business, right, whether on
a tech side.
And I was like, no, actually,let me hear more about this
other thing that you're doingright.
Let me hear about this realestate thing.
You got some rentals and whathappens, like you can you know?

(23:57):
Because I mean you know that ifyou're getting, I knew, you
know empirically that if you owna house and you rent out, you
can make some money there, right, so that was about it.
But that was the first personthat I actually knew that
actually owned a house andpeople were paying him to to
have to have rent coming.
So I sent him an email rightafter that and grab some coffee.
Uh, sims casanova, uh, which isyou?
It sounds like a made up story.
My name is Juan Rafael and thisguy I met, his name is Casanova
Shout out to you man.
So he was kind enough to giveme some of his time.

(24:22):
This was when I was in Omaha,nebraska, so and I, we met up
and he just kind of gave me someresources at that point and one
of the biggest ones then wasBigger Pockets, which I started
then just binging everythingthat you know, they could, that
I could, that I could defineRight At that time.
I would, I would.

(24:42):
My fiance was living here inChicago and I was in Omaha, so I
would.
I would.
I would be on eight hour driveslistening to Bigger Pockets.
I couldn't wait to have to comesee her because I know that I
could get through seven or eightepisodes then right, just
listening.
And for me it was all right.
I just need to get enough tocover my costs, right?
So if I can get 200 bucks adoor, I would eventually be able

(25:06):
to supplement my income and getout of working well for money,
right?
So, yeah, that was a long wayto get to it, but that for me it
made sense.
I was like I don't have anycrazy revolutionary ideas.
I don't have an app that'sgoing to make you know that
billions of users are going tobe on.

(25:27):
I have a little bit of moneysaved up because I'm a little,
you know, frugal for the mostpart.
So this is a way fornon-creative people to make some
money.
So I went all in and, yeah,that's kind of how I got started
, dude.

That's amazing.
So it just it takes somebodywho's been successful in it to
kind of plant the seed, but youdid the work there.
You reached out and said, hey,I'm interested in this real
estate stuff, where what's agood place I could go.
He gave you bigger pockets,which is by far that's where I
started to.
It was, it was bigger pockets.
And then and then it was thefire within which we know that
you have, which was I'm hey,I've got eight hours here.

(26:05):
I'm going to binge all theseepisodes.
It's literally what we would do.
What we would do, we would onroad trips, we would.
I'd be like, hey, you want tolisten to a podcast?
And like we would just listento the bigger pockets.
And that was the reason that Iwas able to get her on board.
Did you have any problem with,like, getting your wife on board
to do the real estate stuff?

So not really because I was able to show for
me it's like I like to showfirst.
So by the time that so weweren't married when I bought my
first investment, I had alreadyhad a couple of investment
properties.
So I had, I was lucky enoughthat I put in the work right.

(26:42):
So if you just have to showthat you, you're, you'll follow
through on things right.
So I mean even my, because mywell, my friends that I needed
to, you know, buy into that atthat time, because I, we'll
always talk about it.
Hey, we all know that we shouldown properties because this
will, this is the way it's like.
It's like that, right, if youown real properties, or if you
own properties, you'll sellyourself out for the future
because properly, always, youknow, value always goes up.

(27:03):
So that part wasn't too hard.
It was my circle that Iactually had.
You know I'm talking about, uh,road trips like I.
I think there was a trip thatwe went on and I had, can you
imagine, three of my buddies,you know, two in the back and
one in the one in the front, andI wanted to take my car because
I knew that this is what Iusually do on road trips.

(27:24):
I listen to bigger pockets andI I made them sit through and
listen to bigger pockets.
They had no interest in doingreal estate right, so I was.
You know, that's just the levelof determination that you have
to have to do to do this thingright.
If, if you can, if you canconvince three of your friends
that are going out of town to tohave a party to sit in the car

(27:47):
and, instead of jamming out tomusic to, you know, sit there
and listen to bigger pockets.
I think at the end of the ridethere they all knew who Brandon
Turner was and who BiggerPockets was.
So you just have to show thattype of commitment to people
around you, to really show thatyou're putting in the work and,
surprisingly enough, people juststart helping you once they see

(28:08):
that you're actually helpingyourself.
Do something.

And those three guys that were in the car with
you?
Did they turn into real estateinvestors?

you know what they did not?

ah, they did not they wish they did.
Uh, yes, but so, but they alwaysuh, they have it's hard man,
it's hard, you know it takes aspecial person like commit and
do it because they were probablyyour age, yeah, yeah.
And you know there's so muchstigma which is like dude real

(28:40):
estate's for the old guys, right, the old guys that got money
and like you can't get into thegame.
You know it's just too hard.
But you had a little bit ofmoney saved up, so like let's
kind of talk through, like whatwas, what was that first
property like for you?
And like you know how'd youpull it off?
And you're an immigrant and soI'm assuming that you got
financing.
So like how did that wholepiece play into all this?

So so I think buying my first house actually
helped, but before buying theinvestment property.
So and I'll talk about thehouse first, because so, this
was 2017 and I've always had aroommate, you know, through
college.
So we, I knew we were paying.

(29:26):
I think our rent was about 900bucks at the time or something
like that.
It was two bedroom apartmentthat we were renting, and we
went to his brother who ownedthe house and who was the one
person that I could.
I was comfortable enough to askhey, how much do you pay for
this thing?
Right?
And who was?
Who told me, I believe hismortgage was around I think it

(29:50):
was 13, 1400, 1400 and at thetime for me, like it was, it was
a.
It was a shock to me because I Iknow this thing is supposed to
cost a few hundred thousanddollars, you know for to get a
house like this.
So when he took because Ididn't really put it together
that, oh, like you, you actuallydon't need hundreds of

(30:12):
thousands of dollars for this.
Like you, your mortgage can beas close as possible, because I
looked at it as oh like you meanto tell me, if I can add a
couple more hundreds, I can buya property and be able to live
in it.
I don't need a.
I think he had a four or fivebedroom house.
I don't need this, right, if Ican get something.
Uh, that was, uh, I can buy,start building equity instead of

(30:34):
, uh, paying for rent.
Right, and I have my buddy here, you know he's, uh, we're
already going 50, 50 on the rent.
Like, hey, would you beinterested, like in, in going 50
, 50 on a mortgage, right?
Uh, so that's kind of how I, II sold that to him and that was
turned.
It turned out that was my firsthouse hack, right.
And the great thing about thatexperience is the realtor that I

(30:58):
worked with at the time, youknow, made everything seamless
for me.
He made it a great experience,right.
So I think if it hadn't beenfor him, or if I was, he helped
me pick the right house for me,right, so that helped transition
into the honest property.
Um, and so then, when I was donewith that and I was like, oh,

(31:18):
okay, like you know, went to, Ihad, I had decent credit, you
know, and I didn't, I didn'tknow I had new credit until I
went to buy for me, my brothertook me this advice.
Uh, before I got my firstcredit card, hey, pay it off.
I paid off every month, likethat's all he said.
And I was okay, like likethat's all I needed to know.
And I just did that.
And I'm glad he said that,because if he hadn't, like, I

(31:40):
would just think this was just Idon't know if I would have done
it right.
So just knowing those littlethings and being diligent with
money helped me down the lineright.
So just paying all my creditcards I turned out I think I
went to yeah, so I startedtalking to a banker then okay oh
you have pretty good credit.
I was like, okay, what does thatmean?

(32:00):
Well, we can get you this, forI think it was like 4% then, so
I was able to get in.
It was a conventional with a 4%down loan, so I didn't have to
go FHA because they're like,well, I think commercial is good
for you.
I didn't know if it was a thingthen.
So that's kind of how I getinto the first one.

(32:21):
This was and I can get it.
I think I put down maybe it wasa hundred and fifty thousand,
our house and three or fourpercent, I think I put down
where was it?
I just know Omaha, okay, yeah,yeah, so that was.
I think I put down 9,000,something around there.

(32:43):
There was a seller helping,help me out with some stuff.
I just know that.
You know the realtor told methat, hey, you got some, uh,
seller credits or things likethat.
Yeah, that that helped.
So, uh, that was it.
But I just want to say thatjust working with a realtor then
you know that helped me.
Um, you know, not buy, not buytoo big of a house, right,

(33:05):
because I was approved for alittle more than that and I just
making that process in my timehe wasn't, you know, he wasn't
in a rush because we saw threeor four houses well, actually a
lot more close to a dozen beforemaking the right decision and
he would flat out tell me, no, Idon't think you should buy this
one.
I'm like, oh, okay, this isgood, I can.
Actually, you know, this guy'snot just out here to take his

(33:26):
commission and bounce right.
So, yeah, the help.
And so for the second house, Ifigured, okay, well, like, I
guess I need a whole lot ofmoney to do this, right.
So I called him up and said,hey, I want to buy my second
property.
I still have a little bit ofmoney saved up.
And that second, that house,was $57,000 that I bought.

So much less than the first one.

Much less than the first one, right?
Yeah, right.
So when I called him actually Iwas like, well, I don't, I
don't know if I can affordanother one, but I would like to
.
Can you help me get somethingelse right?
And and all he had to do was Ijust had to tell him what I was
looking for, kind of what I canafford, and he started sending
me a list of uh, of houses, andI didn't even know that there

(34:12):
were houses that are less than$100,000.
That would be decent, right,and I'm sure you probably.
If you live in a differentmarket now, they might not be
100,000, but it might be a lotless than what you actually
think, right, because you'reprobably looking at houses that
you would live in, which thisone maybe I could have lived.
I mean, it was in a decentcondition, it was the.

(34:35):
It was a worst-looking house inthe best neighborhood I could
afford, right, which has been myformula for investing all
throughout.
You know, find a, find aneighborhood that is good enough
, buy the ugly house there andyou'll be okay.
So, yeah, we bought the house.
I think it was listed for 90,we negotiated, we negotiated
pretty hardly, he did all thatand I got in $57,000.
Wow.

That's almost half the price of the world.
Right, You're the best realtorof all time.

It sounds like , and at closing I found out it
was worth $78,000.
So I was awesome.

Built-in equity yeah, immediately.

Wow, Praise to your realtor man.
That's awesome.
How did you get connected with?

him.
Good question, I think Was itjust like a Zillow thing.

Yeah, you don't know.
I actually yeah, I didn't knowI went to Zillow, looked up a
house that I thought would begood for me to look at and I
went to see the house he wasselling and I was like I showed
up and say I'm looking to buy ahouse, and he's like, where's
your realtor?
And I was like, what's that?
I don't have one of those.

(35:39):
Uh, would you you know?
And he's oh, I can help you.
Yeah, you know.
And directly I was like are yousure about this?
You know, maybe he's just like,yeah, he'll talk me into buying
his right.
So luckily he didn't, right?
He told me well, I think thisone is good for you, but you
know, if, if it's not for you,then it's not for you.
Just just let me know.
So that, just, that's all right.
I guess there he can help meget your next one.

(36:01):
So, you know, I would test him alittle bit on certain things,
like and I think you should dothis with anyone you work with,
because I try to do that witheven contractors now you just,
you know, you just kind of seeif is, is this person always
going to be a yes person, right?
Is it always?
Is everything just going to bethe greatest thing for you to
get right.
So and he'll?
He'll tell me, you know he'llshoot his trip.

(36:22):
He'll tell me not.
I don't think this one wouldwork.
Um, I think this is probably alittle better for what you're
trying to do, like, um and yeah,um yeah, so you got the luck of
the draw there.

Yeah, so sometimes , sometimes you get the agents
through Zillow where it's.
You know I used to do thatright, but you can meet.
You can meet great people.
You know, if you're not arepresentative, and people will
do that and they'll meet theperson that's showing the house
so that they can show you somevalue.
You can feel like they're likean honest person.
You know, latch on to that andyeah, it's cool that you kind of

(36:52):
test them too.
But all right, so go back toyour.
So so the first house, just tokind of recap, the first house
you bought with a buddy of yoursand you guys just basically
split the mortgage so I right.

So no, so I was the only one.
Uh on the on the on the loan.

But you kind of had a handshake agreement that
you were splitting the mortgage,right, right well, yeah, you
know, I told him I think my, mymortgage was uh, 1200.

And I told him , hey, just give me 500 bucks.
Okay, cool, and and you're good, you live in the house.
I had a little pool in the back.
Hey, you want a house with apool?
Just give me 500 bucks.
That was a deal for him yeah,all right.

So then the second house you bought without
intention to live there, right?
So this is actually going to beyour first renovation project.
So did you finance it or didyou pay cash for it?
I financed it.

Okay, yep, as small as the loan was, I only
had about 15% of that left in mybank account then.
So, whatever that ended upbeing is all I had and I put
down the down payment for it andwell, I think I saved a little
more to do some rehab for it.
And well, I think I saved alittle more to do some some some
rehab for it, which actually sogot the house and didn't know

(37:59):
didn't know anything about, norto get a lease or anything like
that.
I started going to meet upstill, which, which was another
thing.
Number one well, close, topfive success lessons just get
around a community of people whoare doing what you want to do,
so going in there, the firstconversation is that I had, with

(38:19):
these people, helped me savethousands of dollars because I
had in my mind that I had to doso many extra things that will
not get, that would not bringhim all right.
I was going to redo the, redothe.
What was it?
The driveway.
I was that thing.
I was alright, like this isgonna be.
I got a couple of bins aregonna be 9,000 or so.
I was gonna spend money on that.

(38:40):
I was gonna spend money on alot of things that would not
have made sense.
Right, because they would have.
They would, I would just Iwould have overdone it for the
house, and being able to cutthrough, find out what needs to
happen in order to get the bestrent or best property is what is

(39:00):
the advice that they gave me,and I made up a couple of the
buddies of mine.

I still call today for four questions things like
that, so that one they turn intoa rental for you yes, it turned
into a rental.

Uh, was not.
My first tenant paid rent thefirst month and the second month
did not.
Uh, oh, so yeah, what a start.
So yeah so, you know, we starthitting bumps now.
So if we can get into thosebumps because I know so far it's
been pretty good with therealtor second house did not

(39:34):
want to pay rent and I shouldhave known you screen well, or
how'd you?
Yeah, no, I, I did not do muchof that.
Okay, it was a lady that wantedto move in within the next
couple of days.
Maybe I Walmart, give me acheck.
And I was all right, here arethe keys and you're good to go.
Met you at walmart.

(39:54):
Yep, maybe, yep, maybe.
In the parking lot I was, I hadto work and, uh, she was.
She was in a rush to get in andI was all right, like I, you
know, I was like, well, I'm atwork now.
She said, well, I'll just, I'lljust, I'll just come meet you
there, you know, and I was like,oh yeah, that's, that's perfect
.
I mean, that's exciting likeyou know this is this is the way

(40:15):
to go right?
someone that had money you knowthat was cash ready to go and no
, yeah, don't do that.
I should have been a littlemore patient with that.
I turned and I was able to.
Uh, I think she went a fewmonths without paying rent and,
you know, she ended up justtaking off.

How'd you get her out?

Well, you know , things are a little different
than they are here in Chicago.
It was I didn't have to do, Ithink she just took, I think I,
you know, maybe threatened aneviction, then that's all I
needed to do then I guess.
And yeah, she took off and Imean she left a bunch of trash,
uh, trash for me to handle andit was, she wasn't the cleanest

(40:54):
person.
So I mean, you know, I've hadworse stories since then, like
you know, now, if you tell methat I would have a tenant that
would leave and just leaveclutter and a mess, I'd be, hey,
sign me up, right, right, butmuch better than, uh, someone
who lived there for for formonths and uh, and actually
damaged the property.
So, yeah, I mean, in all thesethings and things in hindsight

(41:18):
even and I've gotten worsestories on that but like,
looking back, like man, like Imean that property even, I think
, yeah, so after, when she leftthe property, I I got, I got
robbed.
Then, you know, someone came inand vandalized the property,
stole all the copper, uh, youknow, in between that, yeah,
geez.

So you got someone that's not paying rent and then
, all of a sudden, someonebreaks into the house while it's
vacant and steals all thisstuff.

Yep, I wonder if you know that that wasn't a
plan of theirs to come.
And, you know, take the rest of, uh, what they left behind.
So, yeah, someone you know tookall that and I I didn't even
you know, and I got in there andI didn't even know that I was,
I was, I was some, I got, I gotrubbed.
I walked in and I just noticedthings just didn't look quite

(42:03):
right, you know, and I and Icalled, I called my plumber up
to uh, you know, I was like, hey, I'm not getting water, like
you know, come check this out.
And he comes like yo, that'sall your copper.
They took your, your accondenser outside, like you, you
need to call the police.
Yeah, so you know, and then, uh,that happened, and at the time
I mean I, it actually ended upbeing, uh, believe it or not,

(42:26):
because and I end up being ablessing in some in some way
because then I, I was able tocall the insurance up and say,
hey, I, you know, I need all newplumbing done here and I need a
new ac, uh condenser and allthese things that I was, they
were able to take care of for me.
Uh, you know, a couple ofmonths later I think I yeah, I

(42:46):
had to front the cost and thenthey paid me back.
But you know, now I had aproperty that I was like, hey I,
I have brand new plumbing, Ihave a USC unit and I was able
to then that $50,000 house Ibelieve I was able to get.
I was able to get a refinanceand got a $40,000 check out of.

So, so, so, sometimes, sometimes, when you
go through all these challengesand then you go to correct it,
you actually get rewarded 100%.
It kind of goes back to yourcomment where you're like, well,
the market's always going up,right, and that's what we have
been seeing is that the markethas been going up.
And the longer that you holdthe property, yeah, you might
have some headaches, but if youhave a big refinance situation,

(43:27):
oh shit, it's worth more.
Oh wait, I can pull this moneyout.

What?
Oh shit, it's worth more.
Oh wait, I can pull this moneyout.
What, right, right, that was it, and you know it was still.
I was able to get better rent,I was able to do a few more
things with with that extramoney, and I mean it's.
I mean, this real estate game isjust so real, you know.
So forgiving, you know, and Imean you do have to, you do need
time right.
So if if I wasn't let's saythat I was I couldn't pay my
mortgage right after that tenantdid not pay, then I would have

(43:55):
been screwed because then thebankrupt came in and taken the
place right.
So you do need to be able, youdo need to not overpay when
you're buying right.
So once you do that and youdon't, yeah, once you have that
in place and you have, you cangive yourself a little bit of
room with reserves.
And just because real estate isforgiving, don't just buy the

(44:17):
house and take the extra moneyto buy a Tesla right.
Save some of that money for arainy day.
I still live frugally.
So that's what allowed me towait it out and solve these
problems and get rewarded forthem.

Do you still own the property?
I do no kidding, I do yeah.

Do you?

own both of the ones and no one.

I sold the one that I lived in.
That had helped me buy otherproperties, so that was sold out
in COVID.
During COVID I lived in theproperty for two, three years,
moved here, I rented out for afew months to my buddies and
then I was getting close togetting out of the homeowner's

(45:03):
exception, where you get to sella property and take up to
$250,000 of tax-free profit.
So I ended up selling it.
I think I got a $70,000 checkfor that.

That was the first one.
Yeah, that was the first one.
Yeah, Sweet.
So then you ended up.
At what point did you come toChicago?

Yeah.
So 2020 actually was when I andright before COVID is when I
moved to Chicago.
We were expecting my wife wasexpecting our first daughter and
moved to Chicago here I wouldvisit her.
So I kind of knew where shelived and kind of saw that, oh,
there's a lot more activitygoing on in this part of town

(45:45):
which is Bronzeville, and I kindof fell in love with it.
So, right when I moved here inJanuary, I started looking for
properties right then and thereand I know that there's
something going on here Now Iknow what to do.
Right, I know I can get a threeunit, four unit, live in one of
the units and be able to I'd beable to increase my network

(46:06):
essentially.

Yeah, so you knew that stuff from BiggerPockets
right, Because they talked aboutthe house hack situations and
how to do that and it probablywasn't really.
Were there multi-familyproperties?

in omaha?
Yeah, not many.
So I did end up buying a duplexafter that, uh, other house in
in uh in omaha, but it wasn't ina place that I would.
I would love you know my familywere living.
It was, it was a little rougherarea.

Yeah, was that uh, that was a house hack then.
No, that was not.
No, it was a little rougherarea.

Was that a house hack then?
No, that was not a house hack,it was 67, so I convinced my
brother to give me some moneyand we went and half and half on
that and we put down 20%.
That's right.
Then I've been 25%, which of 70grand.
It wasn't terrible.
I'll be able to make thathappen, which we still hold to.

You still have that one, I still have that one.
Yeah, yeah, you've only soldone property so far.
Yep, that's right.
Even now, even now, yeah, yes,that's funny.
That's funny, I'm kind of thesame.
Well, and you're in, which isinteresting because you're a,
you know, buys the shitty onesand makes them look beautiful
and gold.
There's a lot of people thatare like, oh, let's take the

(47:12):
profit out of that, right, yeah,but you kind of seem to have
this mindset of like, oh, no, no, there's a lot more money to be
made from this property.
Absolutely, it's not just today, but what it's going to be
worth in about five years 100%.

It's like make money today and tomorrow.
That's kind of how I look at it.
You know it's.
Why would I choose just today,if I can?
I can cuz I mean I've done,I've done the bulk of the work.
Now, right, I fixed this thingup, it's.
You know it's like a juggernaut.
I mean there's still gonna be.
You still got to my biggestconcern there.
He's gonna be to find a goodtenant, right.
So once that, once that's done,I mean why just give it up to

(47:48):
someone else?
If I was in that game, sure,but I'm in the, you know,
long-term game.
So that's kind of how I look atthat so then, all right, so
back to Bronzeville.

So, bronzeville, you bought a multifamily.
Yep, yep, and that was a househack, yes, that was a house hack
.
And that was an FHA.
That was an FHA.
Yeah, three and a half percentdown three and a half percent
down.

Yep, yeah, again through numbers.
That was uh, 320,.
Uh, then it was.
You know, I was getting to somebigger numbers.
Now I left my 50 and 60thousand dollar uh house days
and now I was buying stuff inthe in the hundreds of thousands
.
So but yeah, it was great, itwas listed for, I think, closer

(48:28):
to 400.
Uh, now when I, when I moved tochic, I moved to Chicago and
just found out first, I did askmy buddies in Omaha, the new
people in Chicago, aboutrealtors that I could work with.
It was a little harder thenbecause then and now I consider
myself a little more of aninvestor, a little more savvy,

(48:48):
so I wanted to do a little moreof a negotiation that I wanted
to do.
I reached out to anothergentleman and wanted to submit
an offer and I had to actuallypush him because he thought my
offer was too low.
But it was accepted.
I think it was listed for closeto $380.
We got it for $320.

Oh, that's good Wow.
It must have been out of themarket for a while.
It was yeah, so this was I meanyou got to think about it.

This was we're closing April of 2020.
So this was right beforelockdown.

Oh, that's perfect timing.
Perfect timing, literallyperfect timing?

Yeah, yeah, nice.
And you know the owner wasliving in Wisconsin.
She had a friend who was herbuddy, who was the listing agent
for that.
You know two older ladies, youknow they were not too computer
savvy and so they would taketheir time to do their showings

(49:45):
and people would want to see theplace and they just weren't
always available.
And you know, for me I livedclose enough and I was willing
to do the hard work on this one.
They actually didn't wanna gowith my offer because it was FHA
and they needed a few thingsdone.

Yeah, it's not always the easiest to kinda get
that done.
It's a property that neededwork.

It didn't need work, but it had a peeling
paint on the porch and a fewthings outside that needed to be
done, like there was, somewindows are covered, that and
when I?
Well, so when I got the offer,when he accepted my offer, there
was a few things that needed tobe done for them to before my
lender would continue, and theseller was not willing to do

(50:28):
those things, like the thingthey wanted them to get rid of.
You know, the paint got thepaint right, yeah, and it was a
and it was outside, and so whatI did was I was like you know
what that's, that's fine, that'sno problem, I'll do that.
You know this was uh.
So I, you know this lady thatwas in, uh, in in wisconsin and
uh, she was, you know, elderlyand you know she was like, hey,

(50:49):
man, like I'm not gonna put upwith this.
We have another, um, we haveanother offer that's coming on
down the pipeline.
If your, your bank, wants tootoo many things, so we're just
not gonna move forward with this.
Oh no, no worries, I'll findsomeone to do this.
And I think at first she sent me, uh, she sent one of her uh
contractors that could do it,and they.
They wanted, I think I don'tknow know three or four grand to

(51:13):
take care of.
They had to take a cover off, awindow or something like that.
They wanted to make sure thatthe window wasn't broken and I
was like, no, I'll find somebodyto do it.
So I ended up finding a guy whoI paid, I think, 500 bucks to
go and rip off some paint.
Actually, we went over therewith the intention to repaint
the deck and he was actuallysavvy enough.

(51:35):
The contractor that I got waslike, oh no, with FHA you don't
actually have to repaint, youjust have to get rid of the old
paint.
So got over here.
So now I'm spending money onthis property that's not even
mine yet, you know, that's justthe level of determination you
have to have to make thesethings happen.
I don't know if you you knowwhat you imagine.
Someone went by your house andyou know you send someone.

(51:57):
I was, I think I was in.
I mean it wasn't a lot of money, but like I had to make sure
someone was there, I had to makeyou know you didn't have a
ladder out of make sure we goright in the ladder.
He was up on the on the thirdfloor porch there fixing up
things.
I just so I could get a littlebit on the brim Cause.
At that point I knew that, ohyeah, I have something here

(52:17):
that's worth a lot yeah.

There's been a number of deals that we've been
a part of where like, yeah, thebuyer had to go in and, you know
, do the paint thing, and it'sfunny.
It's funny how many times thatyou, you know it's such a small
little piece and a lot of timesyou can just paint right over it
, right, yeah, that'll, that'llsolve the day and get the loan
approved, which is just so silly, the lead paint stuff.

(52:41):
But anyways, all right, so cool.
So then you know, the rest ofthe property was mostly like
turnkey or like just a littlebit outdated yeah, it was.

It was mostly jerking, so theyking, so they
were already tenants in there,so it was just the one vacant
unit that I ended up moving intofor about a year and I was able
to just refi that.
I mean that was another greatone, I mean 2020.

So you bought it in 2020.
You got a low price on it andthen when did you do the refi?

Oh man, a year later, a year later, a year
later.

And it was worth how much $460,000.

That's what was happening, though, during COVID
Right yeah.

We went through the boom.
Yeah, we went through the surge.

And now, what's the property worth today?
Amazing timing execution.

Oh, it's got to be in the fives.
I haven't yeah, I mean that'syeah.
I was like man.
This property is worth morethan all the work I've done.
I didn't get paid, it was$140,000 a month.

Okay, so you lived in one of those units and then
you rented out and it was athree unit.

It was a three unit.
yes, yeah, and then you rent itout and it was a three unit, it
was a three unit, yes, yeah, andthen you rent it out to two,
yeah, and what I was saying herewas that, even buying that
touring property right.
There was other challengesthere, like I had one of the
tenants in the in the building Iwas not paying rent, right, so
I was.
I almost walked away at thatpoint when I when I found out
that, oh, you know, I'm, I'm inChicago now there's different

(54:12):
rules, you know, to gettingpeople to pay rent and you can
rent into people that will takeadvantage of the system.

Can I ask is that required to be disclosed as
you're going through the undercontract and closing process, or
was that something that theywillingly shared?
Or how did you find out that?
Because they typically tell youif there's a lease, right, so
you know if there's a lease onthe property and what the rent
is, but how do you find out ifthey're not paying?

yeah, interesting, I think.
I think the lady was probablyjust warning me that hey, be
careful with these people.
Like you know, it was I theseller the seller yeah sorry
yeah, the seller was.
You know, I got on her goodside, which I always try to do
when I'm in this process.
You have to get people to lowertheir guards as early as you
can, because then that makeseverything else go a lot
smoother.
So in those conversations sheshared that, hey, these people

(55:03):
have been a headache Because Ilearned to try to find the pain
in the process, because it'sgoing to end up being yours.
So, oh, why are you sellingthis property?
Those questions like what aresome of the problems that have
happened?
And I found out, hey, well, I'mout of the state.
I'm out of state and you know,I have these people that are not
paying and they're very needy.
You know those were her words.

(55:26):
So that was oh man, do I wantto inherit this problem?
Right, inherit this problem,right?
So I actually posted a questionon uh, on bigger pockets.
I think that was my first postthere.
Hey, what, what would you do?
I have to go back and look atit and see what answer is.
Uh, I got.
But you know, I, I follow, Ifollow through, right.
So I still did close and I'lltell you I've owned that

(55:46):
property for five years now andthese are the people that did
not pay and they hadn't made.
They haven't missed a singlepayment, uh, since then.
Oh, so you got them.
So, yep and uh and so, and sothat happens, right.
So not everybody's good, buteverybody's bad, right.
So, yeah, they, they actuallyjust needed someone that would
fix things right.
So they I mean, they're alittle particular about certain

(56:08):
things like I've I probablyupgraded everything else in
their unit since then.
Right, there were some annoyingthings that I found, but I was
like, okay, all right, it's notunreasonable, right, but I was a
good landlord and took care ofthem and they've taken care of
me, oh, wow, that's awesome.

So yeah, so it wasn't just people that were
just, hey, they couldn't pay andthen they were just freeloading
it.
It they couldn't pay and thenthey were just freeloading it.
It was.
It was actually they didn'twant to pay because they needed
some things updated in the lastand the last landlord didn't
respect it and right whatnot,honestly?

so they held right she was older and out of
state.

Wow, wow, well, that's a.
That's a great story honestlybecause how would how a tenant
situation can really turn aroundif you just treat the tenant
like like person, right, right.

Yeah, I did.
You know every case isdifferent, so you do have to,
you know, don't assume anythingright.
Protect yourself.
Right, because you just don'tknow right and know that there
will be people that will try totake advantage of you.
Right, so do the pros and consand sometimes you just have to,
you know, take a chance oncertain things.

Yeah, you just have to take a chance on certain
things.
Yeah, all right, so from therewhat did you do next?

What did I do?

next, and how long did you live on that property
for?

Just about a year.
Yeah, so about a year.
I was getting ready to dosomething else with it.
I was looking to buy my nextproperty.
No, actually it was a littlemore than a year, it was two.
I ended up staying in thereuntil I bought another FHA, so a
little 2021.
Another FHA, oh because yourefinanced out of your first one

(57:41):
.

I refinanced out of that first one.
Yeah, yeah.

All right, I got $460,000, not doing anything
.
I even got a little bit ofmoney.
I think I got $30,000, in cashout from that.
All these down free and clearnow, well, not free and clear, I
got all my money back from them.

Oh okay, your initial investment is back up,
yeah.

I still have a mortgage on those that I'm
paying, obviously, but yeah, soafter that I bought there was a
four unit that I.
At that point I had a littlemore cash and this was when I I
well, I took the biggest betsright.
So I had sold my first house inOmaha, the $150,000 house.

(58:21):
I got a $70,000 check for thatthat I was wanting to put into,
you know, put in somewhere else.
So I found a four unit buildingthat was listed for I think it
was originally set for 475.
I had gotten this.
It had continually been, youknow, dropped right.

(58:44):
They have dropped lower, lowerthe price a few times and I
eventually got this thing for295.
Times.
And I eventually got this thingfor $295.
So this was listed at theheight of COVID.
You know where I think it wenton the contract a couple of
times, so where regulations werechanging.
I mean, even then I had sometrouble with closing that first

(59:11):
FHA property because I was doingcontract work here.
So, and that was something withFHA that I FHA, that I had to.
That was an issue.
They had an issue with thatbecause they wanted to make sure
they wanted to know whathappens after this six-month
contract is over, are you goingto still have W-2 income coming
in, right?
So I actually had to email HRand get them to say that I'm

(59:33):
going to have work even after mysix months contract expired,
right?
So all these things you have todo a lot of legwork, like.
So imagine you were getting youknow and there was a lot of
unanswered emails.
But we get that done, butanyway.
So back to the, to the secondproperty there.
So it was just.
It was just just persistencytoo.
So I got over there.
It was it had gotten out ofcontract for like the third time

(59:57):
.
I think someone was looking todo FHA but it ended up being so
much work there so that you knowthey couldn't do that.
And this was this needed to be.
Uh, this was, this was.
Uh, I ended up going hard moneywith this, uh, so at 295, I put
down, was it 15% of that?

(01:00:19):
Yeah, so, something like that.
So at this point I this was myfirst big rehab project that I
was going to do.
So in my mind I'm going to goin here as a four unit.
I knew, I knew that I couldmake it work because I'm getting
that 300.
There are some stuff on themarket that were like it was a
big gap, right.

(01:00:40):
So that's that's what you getin Bronzeville sometimes.
So there are some high endstuff that were like a million
plus right.
And there was some stuff thaton a low end that was like you
know, like 600, right.
So just depend on how much workyou're willing to put in Right.
So I was in my mind then I wasall right, I got the.
This was my first go at workingwith a hard money lender.

(01:01:00):
So I went over there, got thisproperty on a contract and I was
hoping that I could.
Uh, they came over there, gotthis property on a contract and
I was hoping that I could.
They came over there and theyappraised it and they said that
it would only be worth around$600,000 when it was all said
and done.
Actually, that's like $500,000or something.
So they drastically low-balledwhat the ARV would be done.

(01:01:24):
It would be when I'm done withthe rehab, even the hard money
lender.
I later found out that this canhappen Because essentially, if
they say your ARV is going to beworth a million, that means
your loan cost is going to bemuch higher.
I found out that maybe they'rejust a little more conservative

(01:01:45):
with their appraisal of theirestimate, so this was just
something that I didn't know atthe time.
So I got in here.
So all right, because this isonly going to be worth six
something or 500 something.
We can only give you about$179,000 in construction alone

(01:02:07):
and so all right.
So I got that.
I was like, okay, well, we'llsee.
I got the first.
I think I had maybe 10contractors bid me for their
property because, right, then,I'm getting ready to close and
everybody or I think I hadalready closed at this point
Everybody else was like it wasin the $300,000 plus.
I'm like yo, I got.

(01:02:29):
I got less than.
Like I got less than 200k to dothis, I think maybe 180, even
less than that, to do this work.
Like how am I gonna come upwith 300 000 to do this work?
Right?
So yeah, uh, yeah, that was uhyeah, it's not looking good
right now.
No, no, no, it's not lookinggood, it's not looking good,
this was, uh, this was a time,because what's the purchase?
Price right now, uh, so 300k,300, yep 300, and they were

(01:02:52):
telling me that I would I'llneed another 300 to put in yep
uh, and they said the, the arvwas like six six hundred, just
about 600, yeah, yeah, somethinglike that there's no, there's
no profit yeah, there's noprofit and yeah and that's on
the low end too, you know,because I was like, oh man, this
is not looking good, so thiswas, I think, the one I had to.
Actually, everything has beenpretty good so far, but this is

(01:03:15):
the one time that I think I hadto sit my wife down and say, hey
, yeah, I'm going to need to getanother job to do this work.

Rachel Wagner (01:03:22):
That was going to be my question.

Wonderful Togbey (01:03:26):
What did your wife say about that?
Yeah, I'm going to.
I know this.
I know like I believe the ARVis wrong.

Right.

Like, I know I'm seeing stuff out there.
If I put in the work, I thinkI'm going to get a better value
for this Right.
I know that.
So get a better value for thisright.
I know that.
So that's.
That's a good thing about realestate.
You can go out there and findcomps that would justify you
know where you need to be right.
You can kind of and work yourway backwards, right.
I saw that.
I saw the comps that I used andthese were like across the

(01:03:58):
highway, right it was same samezip code but across the highway.
Okay, yeah, I see right so I waslike, man, like these, they
didn't use Bronzeville comps,right, so, okay.
So, and then I, and I even I'vetalked to some people there
well, I mean, you just gonnahave to, like, you know, just
paint this room and just justget them ready to go right, and

(01:04:19):
maybe you'd be okay, right,maybe you can get maybe 1200
bucks per unit here, right, so,whatever.
So, whatever that ended upbeing, I think I was, when I was
getting into this project thatwas a best hoping I would be
around like 1500 for like thefour bed units that was, that
was, uh, which was the biggestunit in there.
So, but I knew that if I, Iknew that if I had the comps of

(01:04:44):
things that were above that.
So I just I believe in theproperty high level and I just I
was like, all right, I just gotthis.
Now there are comps that justifythis being.
You know they.
I just have to make sure thatthey qualify.
When they're looking at twofour units, right, I need them

(01:05:07):
to pick the nicer looking oneand the higher ARV one as a
comparable to mine.
So how many of those thingsthat the new property that's,
the nicer looking four unit havethat I can replicate here.
So you know, they had an openconcept, right, open floor
concept, so they had those.
So I had to do that.
They had an open floor concept,so they had those, so I had to
do that.
I had to start moving walls,right.

(01:05:27):
So now, all of a sudden, youbuy a property that looks good,
right, but once you starttalking about changing layouts,
like you know, yeah, so you hadto move the kitchen.
Oh yeah, oh yeah I had to movethe kitchen from the back to the
front to make it open.

Jason Wagner (01:05:43):
So they weren't.
Probably.
When they did that analysis foryou, they didn't anticipate
that you were moving kitchens oryou know I didn't, so again you
got to like extreme ownershipconcept, right.

It's kind of what I did.
I didn't do a good enough jobshowing them what the final what
you were gonna do well, what Iwould do right, oh, what I would
do right, so uh, or actuallywhat I needed to do to make it
work.
Like because, like it's, eithereither I cut corners right and
try to just turn this over and,you know, struggle finding good

(01:06:16):
tenants, right because?
Or I put in the work that isneeded to get to the valuation
that I need to, uh you know, inorder to do a successful BRRRR
right, which is yeah, so, yeah.
So I ended up, you know, I got asecond job.
I was, you know, pouring goingand I'm laughing because even

(01:06:39):
that $180,000 that I wassupposed to get from the hard
money lender, they actuallyghosted me after I closed on
this property.
So now I'm closed on thisproperty Lender yeah, oh my gosh
.
Who is the lender?
Well, here it goes.
So this was more of a mortgagebroker, I would say.

(01:07:05):
So I didn't actually go throughbecause you I mean, if you're
on Facebook, you're going to seethese posts say, hey, we're
going to give you 100%construction, you put down 10%
you know the loan, like this was2022, so you're going to get,
like, you get all these peoplethat would promise these things.
So that was one of those right,so they'll work with lenders,
right, but they are I just wantto call them mortgage brokers

(01:07:28):
but or private money, somethingright.
So this is who I went through,right, they're out of North
Carolina somewhere, right.
So I closed and they said Iwill get this money.
They actually I closed in.
I had like three grand in extraclosing costs.
Like you know, you look at theHUD statement and you see that,
oh, I, like you know, you lookat the HUD statement and you see

(01:07:49):
that, oh, I'm like there, thisis wrong, right.
So I tell him, hey, you need tochange this so that I can get,
like this is over three grand.
And so, oh, yeah, just go aheadand close.
Like I'll take care of you.
You know, once you've done yeah, so after I close, don't hear
from them.
And yeah, so now I'm like, okay, I only have one guy's phone
number.
I didn't go through the loandocs At this point.

(01:08:11):
I just closed and I put theloan docs somewhere.
I'm like man okay.
I just got to do this thing.
I just knew that I had to keeppaying the Harmony Lender.
I think it was 10%, no, no, itwas 7% then actually, so it was
a great rate.
So I mean, you think about 7%hard money loan, now that is
like normal, that's a normalmortgage.

(01:08:33):
That's a normal mortgage, nowright, so yeah that was the best
I could find, so I went with it, but I could not.
This guy would not answer mycalls.

Sometimes what I've realized is like the best
rate that you can find on themarket comes with the worst
service and the worst otherterms.

Yeah, Absolutely, absolutely, so yeah.
So these it's like they have apartnership with other, they're
like a front right and they gettheir money from another bank
right.
So yeah, so I was into this.
I just knew that I mean, even Iwas trying to not over leverage
, right.
So yeah, so I was into this.
I just knew that I mean, even Iwas trying to not over leverage

(01:09:10):
right.
I was, even though I knew that Ihad this money there I was
trying to get you know as muchof it done, like I think I went
about like cause I had 70 from,uh, my own, from the sale of the
house, I think at that point Ihad like sold some stocks, like
I was.
I had to make this thing workRight, and so I had, uh, I had
everything.
I had some credit cards that Iwas using for the, for the rehab

(01:09:33):
, and I just had to keep pilingon it and like I just need to
get this done as soon aspossible.
So it got to the point whereI'm like I like I really need to
get some money from this guy soI can continue to continue on
the project.
So that's when I went down likepull back up.
You know when you, when youclose on a property, you get
this stack of papers and I waslike, ok, I got a fund it was

(01:09:55):
already my mortgage and try toget some money back from these
people.
They can date so they can payme for the, for the, for the
construction.
So if you're familiar with howhard money construction loans
work, you get reimbursed for thework that you do.
So I had at that point I hadalready done, like I said, I
think, 50 grand in work andhadn't received a check from

(01:10:17):
them.
So I ended up finding a contactfor the lender in there.
I ended up calling.
It turned out the actuallyholder of my mortgage is in a
company in New York.
I called them up and they werelike oh yeah, we have this here,
but you have to go through.
You know, you have to gothrough this other company.

(01:10:37):
You know we can't work with youdirectly.
And I'm like hey listen.
Like these people have notanswered me, like I've sent.
So now that I knew that, okay,now I got somebody.
So I was pro, I ended upsending them a ton of emails.
You guys got to help me outhere.
Like these people are notanswering their calls, they're
scamming me, Like they.
You know, I I blasted themRight.
So and eventually they're likeokay, fine, we'll, we'll.

(01:11:07):
You know, you've been payingyour hard money loan all this
time, we'll get you through it.
So they ended up actuallyscheduling the first inspection.
So they send their inspectorout and actually they're like
all right, you don't have towork with this third-party
company anymore because there'sconflict there.
So we'll just take it ondirectly.
And I was like okay.
Also, I know I only get thismark, I only get about 180 in
construction, but I'm going toneed about 300K to get this one.
I only get about a 180 inconstruction, but I'm going to

(01:11:30):
need about 300 K to do thisthing.
And they're like yeah, goodluck with that this is just.

this is incredible .
I I know you were able to pullthis off, but I'm like what in
the world?

So yeah there, so they're obviously not going
to give you more money for itbecause they're like, no, we
can't do this.
So, man, it was.
I mean, it went on like thiswas a good you know year and a
half of just grinding this thingout, man, grinding this thing
out, and man, I've had $30,000surprises on this thing.

(01:12:02):
You know, I had, you know,pipes that burst in the middle
of the night.
You know water pouring, pouringin the streets.
I had crazy things happen onthis project.
I put in the work and iteventually got a price for
$870,000.

Once you finished, once I finished.
So how did you get the money todo the extra work that you
needed?

Yeah, got, uh, so I got.
So at this point I have about,you know, I did end up getting
all the money from the.
They did give me those.
I would do the work and thenthey would pay me as I go.
So I eventually you know,gradually got all the 180 that I
could get from them.
So this is now.
So now I got about four creditcards business credit cards to

(01:12:47):
do the rehab.
So I had one year 0% APR creditcards.
Shout out Chase.
They helped me get through thisone.

Yeah, we've been there.

Yeah, so I think they're each of them.
You know I had decent credittoo, so that was they were able
to give me.
I think I had 20 grand on eachof those, so I think I was
probably a good uh 70 grand onthis.
I'm like.

Hey, I just once.
I just get this done.
What happened to your creditscore when you put all that
money on there?
Well the good news is that's.

That's one good thing.
I did so.
Those those were all businesscredit cards, so yeah pays to
have good credit and, uh, I wasable to do that and I still had
income from, you know, from myw-2.
So I kept that and, yeah, mostof that went to that and every
everything else.
So I would get my paychecks.
So now at this point I'mworking two jobs.
I would get two checks thatwould come in and then my real

(01:13:50):
bosses will call, which will bemy contractor.
So I get the money from my W-2income and my real bosses, which
were my contractors, will calland they'll take all that money.
So that's just kind of how Ijust kind of kept it going, kept
it going on, for I think thetoughest part were, like the
last, you know, a few fourmonths and that's yeah, that's
that's that's always, yeah, it'salways the last, the last part

(01:14:13):
of the project where you'veyou've exhausted all the cash
yes and you're trying to finishit and you're trying to find out
where it's going to come from,and so you took it straight from
your other jobs.

income Wow, man.

So what was the time?
This was like 2023 when youbought this is that timing right
, or was it a little earlier2022.
Okay, cause I was like I wastrying to do the timing here.
I'm like okay, so you justmoved to Chicago, you had a baby
, you are kind of in the middleof COVID and now you're taking
on this really big project andyou did 75 hard in 2021.

(01:14:48):
So there were kind of like alot of things happening for you
right around all that time.

Yeah, Crazy time, man Dude this is a lot and
a job.

What an epic story , all right.
So then you got this over$800,000 value that you now
still own, and then you wereable to pull out 75 of that
right yep, yeah, I was even moreuh, so I ended up getting uh.
I ended up getting you.

You pulled out 20, 25 percent right I was able
to get a little more.
Oh right, yeah, because, uh, so, because, so at that point,
rates were, were, so I think Ihave a mortgage of uh 6.75% on
that now.
Uh, so this was beginning 2023,which at that time, I was like
man, this is ridiculous, likeI'll refinance this as soon as I

(01:15:33):
can, right, and I just calledup uh, actually just uh, like a
few months back and on that, bro, you still have a good rate, so
just keep just hold on to thatthing, uh, but it is a.
It is an adjustable mortgagethat I had a seven year arm on
it, so I do have a little bit oftime again.
Won't recommend this foreveryone, but you know that's

(01:15:55):
what I needed to do in order toget all this debt paid off and
get the maximize my uh um mycash out.
So I think it was.
I think it was closer to 80 onthat one that I was able to get
out.

Oh wow yeah.

And that took care of uh.
You know, paid everything elseoff.
I think I got a.
I got a check, uh over $300,000on when I was done.
Uh, yeah.

And this was the project that had the hey I was
200 over budget.

That's the project.
That's the project, that's theone Yep.

Yeah, dude, I love this Was how I, just
sitting here talking to you,your demeanor is so calm and
level.
Is that how you are, as you'regoing through all this stuff too
?
Like you just kind of?
100% for the most part Okay.

Wow, I mean, yeah, there are times, you know that
meme where the guy's drinkingcoffee and there's a fire in the
background.

Yeah, Well, I'm just, yeah, I mean, it was just.

What are you going to do, right?
I mean you can freak out.
The scariest part for me wasthe day where you come in the
basement.
I was on my way out, right,because I would check on my
properties after work sometimein.
I was on my way out, right.
This was because I would checkon my properties after work
sometime in the evening, like onmy way out, I hear just sounds
like rain in the basement.

(01:17:14):
So I come down, the basement isflooded and you know pipes, you
know busted and water iseverywhere.
And I go out on the street andit's coming.
So the main water actuallybroke.
So water is on the streetsoutside in my basement,

(01:17:36):
everywhere, and I had to break.
You're going to need to tearout this dig in the streets to
fix this thing.
And I remember making a videothat day.
Everybody still asked me aboutthat and that day was a little
scary.
It was probably one of thescarier ones.
I was like man, I'm alreadydeep in this and here's a scary.

(01:18:01):
You know, first couple ofpeople I called said this is
going to cost you close to$20,000 to $30,000.
You know, first couple ofpeople I called said this is
going to cost you close to youknow, 20 to 30 grand.
I think I ended up findingsomeone to do it for, like you
know, 15 or something like that.
So I mean not great.
But hey, now you know, becauseI had to do that, I ended up all
right like let's do it right.

(01:18:21):
So now I replaced all theplumbing, all the water lines up
to the.
There's a coach house in theback there, so I redid all that.
So now that's doing great.
I mean there's these units thatI originally thought would be
at best renting for 13, 14.
I even called a realtor up togive me an estimate of how much

(01:18:42):
he think this will rent for.
I think he said no, 1,200,right.
Like now, my lowest rent thereis $2,000, right.
And I have a midterm rentalthere that's about $2,500.
You know I made a small600-square-foot coach house into
a nice-looking midterm rentalright and I'm able to get you

(01:19:03):
know wintertime is a littleslower around $2,100.
But in summertime I can get upto 2500 for that and I have one
that I live in, so I fluctuatethe midterm one in into midterm
and airbnb.
I depend on the season.

Um, yeah, just make it work oh, so you do do
the airbnb the short term yep,yeah, yep, I do one.
So wait, do you still live inthis property or no, you moved
out.

No, I moved out in that one.
Yeah, I moved out in that onetoo.
Yeah, so now yeah.

All right.
So actually I want to talkabout that midterm and the
Airbnb stuff, because that'spretty fascinating.
You've had some stories withthe Airbnb, haven't you?

Or You've had some stories with the Airbnb,
haven't you or no?
Yes, yeah, I've had.
You know, my very first Airbnbguest ended up.
Well, was very messy.
Let's just put it that way,that's what.
I'm remembering, yeah, so therewas you know, there was pizza
crumbs, you know, on the bed, onthe sofa, everywhere.
So I've had to deal with ants,ants, like for, you know, for a

(01:20:09):
few months after that.
That was terrible, uh.
So that was, yeah, that was,that was my very first guy man.
Thanks, buddy, thanks for this.
So but then, you know, and thenI got some some lower, some
four stars that I, that I, thateverybody, they said everything
else was great, but they gave mea four.
So that I, that I, thateverybody, they said everything
else was great but they gave mea four.
So that was a little like ah,come on, man, but everything

(01:20:29):
else has been pretty good forthe most part.

Yeah, yeah.
So it's cool that you kind ofswitched the, because in Chicago
it's kind of the hard part.

So you were able to get the.

Airbnb and then you can switch.
You can switch from midterm inthe winter months.
That's right, that's a smartway to do it.

Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, I just kind of stumbledon that.
I've spoken to you, I've spokento Jenny about midterm right
and she recommended hey, furnishFinder, shout out to Jenny.
So that helped me and I wasable to get someone in there
around October and they stayedfor the winter essentially.
So that was awesome.

(01:21:12):
And when it came back around tospring and summer, got some
listings, got some bookings onAirbnb, so I would just rock
with that.

Yeah, boy, you're rolling in the dough here.

yeah, yeah, boy, you're rolling in the dough here
, but what the the beautifulpart is is that all of this shit
was fucking hard oh yeah 100.
Oh, yeah, yeah all of this washard and all right, so where do
you go from there?

yeah.
So after that you know we didthat project.
Now I got a little bit ofsuccess and I got some buddies
that want to do projects.

We bought six units after that.
This is your first commercialdeal.

First commercial deal and partnership.
That was also pretty good.
That was mostly turnkey in thesense of all units were rented,

(01:22:22):
but we wanted to be able to getthe rents up a little higher.
So I think the average rentthere was about $1,100, $1,200
when we took it over A couple ofyou know tenants that were not
up to date on their rent payment.
So those are the two that weare going to.
You know, rehab first andgradually did it that way.
So first, so we do that Now Ihave.

(01:22:43):
So all six units, well,actually, uh, five out of the
six units.
I've seen a high level of uhrenovation, so newer finishes,
flooring, um, air conditioningthat's like the one thing that I
like to do in all my units anduh in.

Were there furnaces to begin with?
There were furnaces.
Yes, so that was.
That was goodbye for sure.

Yeah, that was yeah.
That was a solid win there,because all I had to do was add
the condenser unit.
You don't have to run your ductright.

Is this one?
The same area Is Chicago andBrunsville.

Yeah, this one's in Washington Park.

Okay, very close to the university Nice.

Yeah, so that one was $600,000.
We had to put 20% downcommission.
We raised a little bit of moneyto do the rehab there, so do
the turnover.
But that was through.

So, between your partners, you guys were able to
pitch in Yep, yeah, get thefunds for the rehab, get the
funds yeah, we raised about$175,000, so 20% plus some to do
the rehab yeah.

The funds yeah , it was about $175, so 20% plus
some to do the rehab, yeah,average right now is around
$1,800 from the $1,200.

Nice.
And then have you refinancedout of that?
I have.

As of two weeks ago.
We got the numbers we are 1.1on that.
Wow yeah, 1.1 million.

Yeah, and you bought at 600 and put in one
Bought at 600K.

We probably put in about.
This is fresh off, so we'regoing back and tallying
everything out, but I believe soprobably another.
Okay, so we put down $175,000.
So $121,000 went to the downpayment.
So we had what $50,000 left todo the work and I think we

(01:24:36):
raised another round of about$70,000.

So about $120,000 that went into it.
Okay, yeah, nice In there, nicemargin there.

Yeah, the, the good if, yeah, on the
commercial side too, you knowyou do get to uh, to use the
rents to.
You know it's all about howmuch rent you're bringing in.
They also use some, some comps,right.
But what I learned about thatis you have to drive, you really
have to really drive yourdestiny on those things Like, if
you, you know, when I do it's awhole.

(01:25:07):
I believe the day the appraiseris coming out is the most sacred
day.
And, as for a real estateinvestor, you have to make sure
I mean, you have to prep alittle bit before that as well.
But I show up there, I give himenough proof that my property
is worth what I think, what Ithink it's worth, right, and

(01:25:28):
that's that's.
You know you have to be veryorganized, so I keep track of
everything else that I've done.
I keep track of all my numbers,I uh, I show the comps that I
think are similar to mine andhopefully they use that, you
know, cause then I make it hardfor him to argue that it's not
worth that when I do that, whenI do that much work, it's, it's

(01:25:50):
been, it's been pretty good.

What cap rate did they end up putting that at?

I believe I actually I got a copy of the
appraisal like two days ago, butI think, yeah, I have to get
back to you on that.
I want to get back to you onthat.
I want to say seven something.

Yeah Well, a turnkey building.

Yeah, in Washington Park.

Seven yeah Dang.

Alright, can we shift a little bit into the
credit card hacking that youtalked about?

Yeah, let's go back to the shout out at Chase.

I'm so curious about this.
So we're actually leaving forvacation next week and this is
the first time that we've evenattempted to like use some of
our points, and Jason tasked mewith it.
He's like wonderful, Does thisall the time?
Just figure out how we can likeget our flights and get our
hotels and get this, and it'sthere.
But I didn't find it like supereasy because it's kind of a
puzzle.
Each card is different and yougot to like move points around.

(01:26:52):
I'm just curious like yourprocess and how you got it.

Absolutely.
So I mean, all this stuff, Idon't, I don't figure it out.
I just find smart people thatthat that help out you know.
So, like I thought I was for aslong as I can remember, I
thought I was very smart by theway I used it, which was hey,
just, you know, I stack a lot ofpoints and I use it to just pay
off the balance right, andwhich is the worst way to do

(01:27:19):
this, right?
And you know, I think you mighthave done this too, jason, or
just use it for you knowfrivolous things right, like I
had I would, because I would puteverything on one credit card.
So I think I started off withcapital on one credit card, so I
would, after a year or so, I'llprobably end up with like
80,000 points, which was like$800.
If you want to take out cash,Now, right, so I would just pay

(01:27:43):
off the balance there, and Ithink I even use it to like, or
go on a portal to buy a flightthen, right.
So which is the worst way to doit, right?
So what I learned is that thereare partners, so all these
credit card companies, so thereare certain credit cards
companies that are good to dothis with.
So that's the chases of theworld.

(01:28:03):
Capital One is one of them,american Express is also one of
them.
So what you do with them is,and because they allow you to
transfer your card to otherairlines, you know a ton of
airlines, right?
So if you were to get asopposed to getting, like, a
delta credit card with that, youknow now, you're now stuck with
delta, right, you have to getdelta uh, miles, uh, or uh, um,

(01:28:29):
or like you know, like us.
If I have, I have a us bank card, right.
I use it to get 18 zero percentapr, but it doesn't get me any
any points that I can transferto airlines, right.
So chase is great for that onebecause it has a very low fee.
I think the chase sapphire cardhas a very low fee.
I think the Chase Sapphire cardhas a very low fee.
I think it was about less thana hundred dollars.

(01:28:51):
To do so, you need to have acertain credit card.
So yes, it.
I'll just say this it is.
It's very hard to figure it allout.
You have, you do have to getinto the, you do have to get a
fee.
This was like another side ofsocial media for me when I was.
I find this out, you know, and,and then once you start, I get.

(01:29:12):
It's just called credit cardshacking.
Right, so you can start yourhomework there Just looking at a
credit cards hacking.

Yeah, oh point hacking.
Yeah, credit card hackingno-transcript.

West Fargo never did this, right, so I
started off with West Fargo carsand they never did this.
So my first Chase car that Igot, I was able to get this $900
, right.
Now, $900 is actually worth90,000 points, right, 90,000
miles, 90,000 points, right, sonow, because these, so you can
either go on.
So the first one for me wasactually let's look at when I'm

(01:30:15):
going back home to Togo, right,so you can get there's.
You can take Ethiopian Airlinesright to go to Togo from
Washington DC, or let's go toEurope, because I also used it
to go to Spain.
So you can use your pointsright.
So now, instead of, you can buyan economy ticket for Chicago

(01:30:41):
to Spain for I don't know, know,maybe six $700, right, so, and
you can either use your pointsright To pay that off.
So that means you can take your.
Let's say that I got 90,000points on my chase card now.
So, instead of taking the, Ican then take that, convert that

(01:31:02):
to cash $900 and pay for myeconomy class.
That is not a good redemptionrate, right?
So surprise.
So what I found out is now on awebsite like for airline.
Like you know, iberia is is oneof spain's airline companies
and they have.
They're offering uh economy.

(01:31:22):
They're offering business classflights for about 50,000 points
, something like that.
Yep, then what you do is thereare websites where you can put
in your origin and yourdestination and it will tell you
the best value you can get foryour points.

(01:31:44):
One of the websites is SeatsAero and you tell get for for
your points, right?
So one of the websites is seatsthat arrow, uh, and you, you
tell it your your origin andyour destination and it will
tell you these are all theairlines and how many points you
are required you will need tobook these flights on there.

Right yeah.

Okay, so uh um .
I hope uh, no one's losing mehere, but that's essentially it.

So you find it, so you're on seatsaero seatsaero.

That's the website.
That's yep, that's one of thewebsites you're just putting in
the destination, and it'stelling you the most efficient
way to use it, okay so it'lltell you that delta will charge
you a hundred thousand miles forthis.
It'll tell you that.
They'll tell you that, uh, aircanada will only charge you
forty thousand points for this.
They'll tell you that.
They'll tell you that AirCanada will only charge you
40,000 points for this right.
So, and that's because theseand you might wonder why are
these miles so different basedon the airline, right?

(01:32:33):
So I think so they're all partof an alliance, right?
So airlines have thesealliances.
Again, I'm not the best at this,but this is the buddies that I
go to who actually told me hey,you know, don't be a dummy, this
is a better way to use yourpoints.
Right, they told me thesethings and I've watched a ton of
YouTube videos on this afterthe fact.
Right, so there are airlinesthat you're also able to book,

(01:32:57):
like you can book Chicago toMiami on Southwest, right, but
you can also book it on AmericanAirlines, you can also book it
on United, right, you can alsobook it on united right.
So, depending.
So they have all thesepartnerships, right?
So there is one world, uhpartnership and the star
alliance, uh partnerships.
Or, depending on the partnershipthat you go to, they may price

(01:33:19):
it a little differently, becausemaybe that's not their, their
common route, right?
Like they don't get too many ofthese, or they, like certain
depending on the season, likejust their customers have a
higher need for a certain route,right?
So you might end up findingthat it's actually cheaper on
their portal, right?

(01:33:39):
So that's yep, so that's kindof how you end up finding deals
on these other airlines.
So it's not verystraightforward or that's not
intuitive, right?
But once you do go on websiteslike that, just find the best
way to use your points.
This is what I always ask,right?

(01:34:00):
So you just Google that ChatGPTis going to be a good one for
that.
Now.

Oh yeah, good idea.

Whoa, you just made things Good idea, whoa, you
just made things so much easier.

Yeah, yeah, start with that.

Wow, and that's been working.
That's been working.
Yes.

Yeah, and I also have a buddy too that I go
to.
I mean, he has a consultation.
You can reach out to him, andthen I can drop his contact.

Oh, like he does it as a profession of like.

Wow, yeah, yeah, I've been pushing him to
do this because I'm like yo,like this is because, for me, I
mean, think about it this way.
Right, you're looking at you,know, as an immigrant, where you
have family abroad and yourbiggest expense out of the year
is going to be your travel backhome.

(01:34:49):
Right, these are over, it'salmost two grand to go back home
, right, fifteen and two grand.
And you're telling me that,instead of paying $2,000 or
$1,500 for this, like people, Imean, if you work in a minimum
wage job and your family isabroad, it's going to be hard
for you to spend that money.
a minimum wage job and yourfamily's abroad, it's going to
be hard for you to spend thatmoney every year to go see your
family right yeah, so and so ifyou do, if you're gonna don't go

(01:35:13):
buy stuff that you're not gonnabuy right, like you would
normally not buy right if you'rebuying you get one or two of
these cards, you put all thesemiles on it, you pay it off all
the time.
You you can't do this gamewithout good credit.
Like, let's start off with that.
You gotta have good creditbecause these cards do, uh do
have a fee.
Right, there is a.
You know they are, they are.
They do have an annual fee.

(01:35:34):
I think their lowest ones areabout uh you know, 100 bucks and
there are some zero.
so there's some zero uh annualfee cards that you can also get
this way right.
So you, you think about it.
Way you get one of these cards,you've bought stuff that you
normally buy.
When I was getting 70,000,80,000 points on my first credit

(01:35:56):
cards, I wasn't doing anythingcrazy, I just put everything on
there that I can Just yournormal expenses?

Yeah, just my normal stuff.

If I can pay my utility bill with my credit
card, I'll do it.
I'll call them up and put mycredit card on there.
I will not use my credit cardto pay for things that would
charge me, Because then it's notworth it.
This game is to spend as littleas possible on that, so have
all the expenses go through thatNow, because I have tens of
thousands of expenses with myconstruction.

(01:36:26):
I have a bunch of points that Ican redeem yeah so then you,
just you just use that chat, gpt, ask it to give you the best
reward for this point.
I'll find you're putting yourdestination.
It will give you some optionsthere.
You know there's there's a lotof blogs there.
There's a point guy, you knowyou can read up on things there
and because and also these areactually you use your, I would

(01:36:50):
advise getting business creditcards for these, which is, if
you have one LLC, right, I meanyou can, and you can have a
business credit card by withjust your social too, right?
You just do.
You know, if you drive Uber oryou sell stuff on MSR
marketplace, get yourself a coolname, register your entity and
you can get a, get a, get thedocs, whatever it is called, and

(01:37:16):
then you can, you can go to oryou can apply for a credit card,
right, that way you don't haveto carry these balances on your
personal right, Cause I, withall this stuff I've been able to
.
I was nervous at first, but youknow, I just checked and I'm
back in 800 credit cards.
So that's with having a ton ofbusiness credit cards and

(01:37:36):
millions in real estate debt,right, but you know you play
this game the right way.
It's, it's, it's, it's worth it, yeah.

Yeah, well, I love the whole chat GPT thing.
I didn't even think about thatin terms of I know I forget
about it so often.

I've been using it a lot more lately just to ask
like basic questions.
But yeah, you can use it for somuch more, yeah.

Yeah, All right.
Well, I mean that that.
So when we did all of our rehabfinancing, we actually did it
with personal.
We did personal credit cardsthat was in our personal name 0%
.

That was 0%.

And at one point I probably had like five of them
going.
And they each probably hadanywhere between like a $7,500
balance to like a $15,000 creditlimit, so we'd stack them all.
But I had a great spreadsheetwhich was like I knew when this
one was ending on the 0% andthen we never paid interest on

(01:38:33):
this.

But you know what ?

that does.
It fucks your credit.

Yep, yeah.

It totally destroys your credit.
So you did it the smart way.
I did not.

And your career usage is going to be
through the roof.

Yep, yeah through the roof.
Yep, yeah, yeah.
So the credit utilization umyou know it takes, it takes away
on your um, on our score.
So, like we, at one point weprobably had like um low 500s in
in a credit, but it was allbecause, and I'm just like, yeah
, who cares?
like it doesn't matter because,because when we paid them all
off, everything just like, yeah,at the end of the day, when you
do go to sell the property, orlike you get the cash out right

(01:39:04):
and and then you go to pay offthose you know the money that
you use for the rehab All of asudden your score goes, you know
through, yeah.

I mean so yeah , you got to do what you got to
do.

I mean, if I didn't have that option.

You know, I would definitely have been
putting on my personal as well.
But, yeah, do, just do try to.
The danger in that is, when itcomes to refi, you might run out
of options, right?

Yeah, because they have to qualify you.
You have to be qualified onthat refinance.

Right yeah.

If you destroyed your credit all of a sudden,
you're really hard to get a loanfor.

Absolutely.

Well, I think you did refi that property you're
talking about.
I think the credit cards werein my name because I had a job.

You didn't.

And you ended up refi.
That's the thing.

You go back to that whole thing of how your
partner can help you achievegoals.
So that was our secret.

Carried the debt.

One of us was going to carry the debt and try
to keep the other ones stillalive there.

Yeah, it worked out.
It's all good.
These are the battle scars.

These are the real .
These are the real life, battlescars and, uh, you know, it's
not all sunshines and rainbows,but the rainbows come after all
the hard stuff, right yeah?

I mean you have to.
You have to solve some problemsin all these, in all these
deals.
There are people that had painand you have to be willing to
take it on.
You have to find the ones thatmake sense for you.
There's reward in solving thatproblem.

How many apartments do you have?

now I have 3 units under construction and 17
units that are rented currentlyNice 20 20 apartments.

Yeah, sweet man.
Oh, that's awesome, and you'vebeen and you started.
What was the year that youstarted?

oh, but my first investment property in
2019, 2019 yeah, it hasn't beenthat long.

That's the same as us.
Yeah, same as us.
We just got our five, six yearswe just got our 22,.

six years we just got our 22nd units yeah, we
closed on it actually earlierthis week and, yeah, we started
in 2019.
Awesome so it's like nice yeah,nice little pace, yeah, right.

Okay, good, good, yeah, it was, it was a
good time then.
I mean it's.
You just have to keep going,though, like for me, I know the
market isn't as great now, butyou just have to keep going
smartly or in a smart way.
Smartly is a word, but in asmart way.

In a smart way yeah.
What's the ultimate goal foryou?

With the real estate, yeah, or wherever Like.

where are you going Like?
What is it?

Yeah.

I mean, you got 20 now, right, so what is it?
What's that?
Uh, what's the number?
That like does it for you, orlike, or, or.
Have you thought about it?

you know I not as much as I used to.
In the beginning, you know itwas, it was more about a higher
number of doors, uh, but I've Ifound out that I would rather
have solid performing propertiesright that are bringing in
great rent or tenants are happyand paying on time.
I mean I'm 20.

(01:42:15):
I'm still far away from thatnumber, but it's I mean.
But I think it's less about thenumber of doors so more about
the cash flow coming in.
And actually, no, I don't wantto say cash flow, because I've
learned that it's all about thenet worth that you're building.
The equity that you're able touse for other things, right?

(01:42:38):
So if you're able to get allthese assets right what the rich
do, right, you have all theseassets for you and when
something happens, what to do,you're going.
You have all these assets foryou and you know, when something
happens, you know what to do.
You're going to have to maybesell one of those to take care
of a problem, right?
So as much of those little guysthat I can assemble that would
shield me from, you know, life'spain or those problems, that's

(01:43:00):
kind of what I'll try to get.
And now I'm thinking about itthis way, like I mean, it's,
just think about it this wayFirst year, right, we're buying
these things and we're we're soworried about cash flowing.
Year one or year two, like, yougot this thing.
But think about it Like in 15years or 10 years, I say that
your mortgage is a third paidoff or something like that, your

(01:43:23):
, your rent is going to be thatmuch higher, right, like it's.
It's they're working in in ininverse, right?
Uh, one is going up and one isgoing down, which is, your net
worth is going up and your debtis going down, just about like
you know 20 years from now, even30, like it's really gonna.
It's gonna get really good onceyou don't have a mortgage on
this, so I just just hang onthere, like you know it's good

(01:43:44):
now, but you just wait.
You know, imagine getting on,imagine getting all his friend
and not having to, you know, topay the bank for it, right yeah?

I mean it's gonna be sweet so so is that the
retirement game I think so.

Yeah, just have, just have as many of these
things that can cover myexpenses as possible.
Hopefully by that that time therent have.
I'd say rent doubles every 10years or something like that.
I think I read that somewhere,maybe shorter these days.
But yeah, just play your gamesright.
Find an area that you believein, that has a long-term horizon

(01:44:20):
in, has the fundamentals inplace, and just take it out.

Yeah, and have you gone through evictions or yes.
I have that story.

Yeah, I have, so I have.
Well, yeah, I've had one inCOVID and during COVID in Omaha
actually, I had a, you know Iwas able to get.
The thing about Chicago is it'skind of crazy when you, when
you have a tenant that decidedto take advantage of you, right

(01:44:54):
and for one reason or anotherand I've seen your posts and man
, I feel your pain.
Man, when I see that you haveto do cash for keys, I mean just
the like.
I just look at there's somepart of me that just really,
really struggles with that.
I just feel like man, there'sjust someone out here that sees
that oh, there's no idea all thehard work that I put into this

(01:45:16):
and wants to take advantage.
And it just really irks me.
And there are people out therethat do that.
I haven't gotten to officiallywait to serve someone.
The papers my worst ones havecome with, just not.
I mean, because I've beenfortunate enough to do a certain
level of screening.

(01:45:36):
I still pick the wrong guy, likemy last guy that left.
He applied for the unit and gotin and he claimed his income
and I don't know how much duediligence I did on that, but it
turned out that income was fromtaking care of his mom, so he
was getting a social securitycheck or whatever that is, which

(01:45:58):
is fine.
But I just kind of overinflated things a little bit.
You know so, and that doesn'talways, you don't always get
that, or there would be anotherthing that would happen.
So he had, I took that, I wasokay.
Like you know, he's taking careof his family, that's fine.
And then he showed me anotherincome, but then he wasn't, as
there were just a few otherthings that would happen in the

(01:46:18):
unit.
So for me it's like now he'sputting this was a six unit, so
now he's putting all the othertenants in the building in a bad
spot.
Right, because you know thatmeans he's coming with the
parties, he's coming with theyou know, showed up with.
First day I was.
I get there after signing thelease over.
There's three little dogs inthere and there was only
supposed to be one emotionalsupport animal.

(01:46:40):
So, man, I mean I'm in here fora rough one.
You know it's like you knowwhat am I going to do now?
But you know it stuck it out.
You just have to, from day one,just show that you know, like
let him know that.
Hey, I'm laying down the lawhere Like you have to.
I try to let him know that he'snot going to, because if I have
budged on certain things like Ihad to charge late fee when he

(01:47:02):
was late, I had to write aneviction I have to serve him on
the 6th right and that helped.
He ended up the last threemonths.
I ended up not paying, but hedid leave at the end of the
lease and I was able to getsomeone else in there.
I mean staying strong when Iwas going through it, but hey,
that's on me.
I got to find a betterapplicant.

Yeah, yeah, a little backstory on ours.
So yeah, we're going throughtwo evictions right now the same
building, which stinks the samebuilding, but it's been okay
because I was able to do thecash for keys on one of them and
we were only behind really ontwo months and this would really

(01:47:46):
be like the third, but we aregoing to start leasing it again
next week, so it really ended upbeing a much better situation
than it could have been, becauseI've got this other one where
they stopped paying in Decemberand they're still there, and
then we just got the order toallow them to be evicted and so
now we put it in with thesheriff, but now the sheriff is

(01:48:07):
telling apparently the sheriffis backlogged and so they're
another like two months out toget them out.
So so that is a that's December,january, February, march, april
, may.

Yeah so that's .

That's probably what we're looking at.

Did you try Cash4Keys for them too?

So they have.
Yeah, so we're going to have to.
I mean, I did try that.
I did try that.
The problem is they?
Don't have anywhere to go andthey're just a, they're a bad
situation.
You know they're mentally likenot there and they really can't
like do anything.
So it's, it's a really it's.
It's a tough one, but did youinherit these inherited?

inherited them ?

yeah, the the last guy, the last guy we we put in,
and that one was that wasreally hard to prevent, honestly
, because what happened here itwas that it was a woman that
applied and you know it'ssupposed to be her and her
daughter, who was five, that wasgoing to be living there.
She had the income, she had thecredit, she had a great
background, and then, all of asudden, there was another guy

(01:49:10):
that just moved in and I didn'tthink anything of it, because
they did pay about three months'worth of rent and one of them
was late, was late, but you knowthey paid it and they paid the
late fee, but then then theystopped paying, and then I
served them the notice and youknow, and, and I had to do that

(01:49:30):
a couple of times and yeah, andultimately they were just.
I was just like I don't, Idon't know how I could have
prevented that.
You know what I mean?
I, because I did screen herright, but I don't, I don't know
how I could have prevented.
Well, there was this, actually,another guy who was phantom who
just moved into the apartmentbecause I guess.
I guess what I could havenoticed was that, oh wait,

(01:49:53):
there's somebody else that'sliving there.
You're not on, you're not onthe lease, like this is a
problem right but the thing wasis that they paid me.
So I was kind of like, well, Iguess it's not that big of a
deal.
So I don't really know how toprevent that.

That's a tough one.
That's a tough one.
Yeah, I, it's hard.
I try to, you know, make senseof the needs.
So I got, I do these.
Now I screen as an interviewno-transcript, like I get these

(01:50:43):
applicants now that I'm seeing acrazy amount of income being
reported.
And okay, let me talk to yourlast tenant.
Oh, I've actually moved out ofthere.
I've been looking for aproperty now for the last couple
of months, so I'm just stayingwith a buddy in the meantime,
like someone who's making sixfigures is not going to be just
comfortable living crashing on abuddy's couch for four months
while they look for a property.

(01:51:03):
It just doesn't make sense tome.

Yeah, I guess, I guess.
Yeah, here's what I didn't do.
I didn't do a landlordverification.

Yeah.

Right.
Talk to the last person,because if they were doing that
scheme like this was a prettywell oiled, it felt like it was.
It was intentional from thebeginning, like pay a few months
and then it was just stoppaying Right, and then we'll do
a cash for keys situation.
Yeah.

Yeah, I mean even like I've I've been also
now, cause I try to think aboutokay, how can they get me Right?
Like, definitely speak to the,to the previous tenant, a
previous landlord, but you'llyou definitely want to talk to
the landlord before that.
So the last two right, becausethe previous landlord is trying
to get rid of this guy.
Oh yeah.
So he's going to tell you, youknow he's the best person ever.

(01:51:46):
Literally yesterday.
I called the previous tenant oran applicant and they're like,
oh yeah, they're so good.
They pay rent two weeks inadvance.
I'm like, no, there's no way,because I already had some
doubts.

Nobody's paying rent two weeks.
Nobody's paying rent you knowtoo much.

I even let out a chuckle on there.
I was like, oh okay, that'sgreat.
Yeah, thank you.
Thanks for telling me what Ineed to know, Because I mean
they have buddies that aregiving the number right.
And they'll try to signprofessional.
So you just have to again.
You just have to, you know,protect yourself.
And for me, if I can confirm,like the one time I was like, oh

(01:52:28):
, I can't reach these people,I'll just, I guess you know I
tried my best, right, I couldn'tget a hold of the previous
landlord or I couldn't get ahold of the, I couldn't confirm
the job, and I was like, allright, that's fine, I guess I
tried.
And then I took them and theyended up stopped.
You know, they stopped in, theystopped paying rent.
So if I can get a whole, if Ican verify anything, I'd rather

(01:52:49):
be wrong and go vacant than takea chance and, uh, have to pay
for it later.
That's kind of how I'm lookingat it now yeah, that's, that's
really good advice.

That's really good advice, sweet man.
I think we got to probably wrapthis up, and this was a
fantastic conversation.

I appreciate you coming on.
I appreciate you.

Yeah, rachel.
So how we kind of, how we kindof do the wrap up here is what's
the biggest takeaway from theconversation.
So I'll always start withRachel.

Yeah, he always talks to me first.
I really liked what you said itwas kind of earlier on about
how real estate's reallyforgiving, and I think you said,
when we were off camera justfor a brief period, every
transaction or deal that you'vehad there's been something right
.
There's always something that'sgoing to happen, there's always
something that's going to comeup, but in the grand scheme of

(01:53:35):
things, it's very forgiving andproperty values are going to
continue to go up and so you'rein the longterm equity gain and
I just think that's such a greatperspective because I think
initially, when people startthinking about investing and all
they think are horror stories,horror stories, horror stories
and they're there, right, youshared a bunch of them right
there's, so many and they werethere for you right from the

(01:53:57):
beginning.
Right that first, that firstinvestment property, with the
copper being stolen and theWalmart renter, right, like you
felt it right in the beginning.
But it's not about those briefmoments.
You just keep going, keeppersevering because it is
forgiving and in the long termit's worth it.
Like you said, you know it'sgoing to be great in 20, 30
years when you're just bringingin cash and not paying the

(01:54:17):
mortgage and I just I reallyenjoyed that.
That was good perspective.

Yeah, yeah, totally, yeah, my big, my big
thing here is that again, Ithink it kind of goes with when
I first introduced you.
You're just a transparent guy,you know and, and transparency
just gives trust, yeah, right,and, and look at you, you've got
stories of like, hey, I wasable to get some of my buddies
to go in on a project with meand we raised the money.
It wasn't your family, it wasyour friends.

(01:54:45):
You convinced your friends, butyou convinced your friends
because you had past experiencesand you were transparent and
you've been that way your wholelife.
It sounds and it's only going toserve you well by being
transparent and sharing the winsand losses and the bullshit.
And you know you combine itwith Rachel's forgiveness on the

(01:55:05):
real estate end and everyone'sgoing to be happy in the end.
You know it's a, it's afantastic way to carry yourself
and so I give you a lot ofcredit for that and it's it's
well-deserved.
So that's kind of like my big.
My big takeaway is that I justappreciate all these stories and
hearing the battle scars andthen being like, yeah, it's
going to be pretty sweet when weuh, when we got these

(01:55:26):
properties paid off.

It's going to be pretty sweet.
I need a friend that.

And what about you ?
What was the biggest takeawayfrom this conversation?

Yeah, so for me it's when you're out there in
a battle.
We all got scars, Just kind oflike you said, I hear yours, and
it's not all sunshine andrainbows for you.
You're out there too, like Isee, because sometimes when it's
happening to you, you mightthink you're the only one that's

(01:56:00):
going through it.
But if you're out there, ifyou're out there in the arena,
you're fighting, you're going toget some arrows thrown at you,
you're going to have some in theback, right.
So if you don't want any ofthat, then don't get in there,
right.
But if you want a reward, thenyou have to be for some of the
pain that makes for the biggeststories.

(01:56:21):
Then you have to be for some ofthe pain that, like you know,
that makes for the biggeststories.
Like you know, if I had called,if I had come on here and said,
okay, I bought this and it wasall great, great, great, great.
I mean it's I would have been acool story, but it wouldn't
have been as great as this one,right?
so some of those, uh, some ofthose pain that we've gone
through and having the my goaland kind of how my uh, my, yeah,

(01:56:41):
my, my vision, vision now isjust think about how good it's
going to be down the line,because you do forget.
The good thing about life isyou forget some of the pain,
right?
Life rewards you for the workthat you put in right, and a few
years, I'm sure, when some ofthese troubles that I've gone
through, I had some sleeplessnights, right, but it's, it's

(01:57:02):
hard to remember those now, likethat's how crazy it is.

Right.

You just continue and yeah, it'd be,
you'd be good.
So just just just stick it outand put in the fight.

Oh yeah, oh yeah, wonderful.
Let's see what's your Instagramand how can people follow you.

Yeah, mr Wonderful invests.
People are going to and how canpeople follow you?
Yeah, mr Wonderful invests.
Mr.

Wonderful invests.
People are going to be thinkingthat you're tied with Kevin
O'Leary.

Yeah, he's a fake, mr Wonderful.
He's got a real money though.

Yeah.

All right, Awesome brother.
Well, thank you for coming on.
I appreciate it.

Thank you.
Yeah, I mean I want to say too,thanks for having me.
You guys are awesome.
I've you know it's energy ofpeople like you that keep me
going, like you know, knowingthat I can, I can call you up,
and when I have an issue andI've called you up on several
occasions, or I was justwatching your stuff too, and I
really appreciate it thank youguys for having me here of
course, man.

That's what this is all about, you know, and yeah
so, if, uh, if, any of you guysfor having me here.
Of course, man, that's whatthis is all about, yeah, so if
any of you guys found any valuein the show, which I guarantee
it I mean the credit card stuffis just like we're all going to
be going to chat GPT and be like.
I've got 100,000 points.
How do I utilize that stuff?

That's going to be one of the best parts here.

But if you found any value in the show.

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