69. Standing Your Ground: Why We Declined Standard Newborn Hospital Protocols

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Jason Wagner (00:00):
Welcome back to another episode of the Real Life
Investing Podcast with JasonRachel Wagner, boy Rachel.
This is actually going to airas the 69th episode.

Rachel Wagner (00:11):
Wow, what a topic for that number.

So what an amazing topic for the 69th episode.
And first we have a bigannouncement to make.
Do you want to make theannouncement?

No, you go ahead babe.

All right.
So I am pleased to announce thebirth of our son, Wes Michael
Wagner.
He came into this world on May15th 2025.
Oh, I can't remember the time.
Was it 1108?
Yeah, 1108.

(00:43):
Yes, yeah.
Eight pounds three ounces, 20and a half inches long.

Yes, right, it's amazing you're remembering these
stats because you stillstruggle with the stats on the
girls.

Nobody remembers their stats on their Our
children are now five and three.
There's no way that anybodyremembers the length of their
child, their first born childyeah, I did not remember the
length especially their secondborn child, if they just had a
third born child.
Okay, yeah, those are hardstats the length, maybe people
remember the weight yeah but thethe length is kind of like.

(01:18):
yeah, I agree, I don't knowPeople talk about the weight a
lot more.
Anyways, we had a veryfascinating birth story.
Is that what you would call itA birth story?

Yeah, it's a birth story for sure.
I don't know how fascinating itis, but it was vastly different
.

We're going to do a whole podcast episode about it
.
It's definitely fascinating.
This is going to be one of themost fascinating conversations
that somebody is going to have,and I'm glad that I'm doing it
with you because this is ourfirsthand experience of what it
was like to have a child in thehospital in today's 2025 age,

(01:59):
when we have Donald Trump as thePresident of the United States,
robert Kennedy Jr as head ofHHS and massive worldwide
changes happening literally bythe minute and today is the 23rd
of May, and just yesterday,kennedy came out with this big

(02:20):
MAHA report, which is 75 pagespages long, which is really
diving into the whole.
Why are our kids so sick?
Why do we have the mostunhealthy children of like all
the other countries?
Yeah, and we spend the most onhealth care, and so they put
together this very comprehensivereport.

(02:42):
I haven't read it, I've readsnippets of it.
I actually have it printed outright next to me, which is kind
of cool, but anyways, there's ahell of a lot happening, and
when you are parents or you arepeople that are pregnant and
you're about to give birth, inthis very confusing point in
time, there's a lot of decisionsthat need to be made right when

(03:08):
your child is born.
So many life, potentiallylife-altering decisions that
need to be made.

Yeah.

And.

Definitely life-altering, yeah.

Absolutely, absolutely.
And the easy way to go about itwas how we kind of did with our
first two children, which wasjust go with the recommendations
, listen to whatever therecommendations are, follow the
experts.
Yep, yep but when you have allof this change happening
literally right now, when youhave new leadership.

(03:42):
That is saying the previousrecommendations aren't always
making sense, but those arestill the recommendations as of
when Wes was born.
What the hell do you do?
Right, yeah, all right, sowe're going to get into it.

(04:03):
How do you want to start thisone from your perspective?
Actually, you're the mother.

Yeah, I mean I think we can kind of summarize
how we got to this point.
We've shared in previouspodcasts some information on our
firstborn and how many changeswe saw occur in her as we were
going with the recommendations.
It took some time for us to putpieces together and
understanding what was happeningfor her, why it was happening,

(04:35):
but now it's clear as day andshe's really the catalyst that
led us to the point where we'reat now, whereas this pregnancy
and this birth we declined Idon't know probably 95% of the
recommendations of standardizedcare from initial pregnancy.

(04:55):
Really, you know at what Ithink it's like 26 weeks or
something like that, they startrecommending all these vaccines
while you're pregnant, right,and previously I got them.
I never got the flu shot while Iwas pregnant with the other two
but and I didn't get the COVIDshot while I was pregnant with
Layla, but I got the Tdap shotwhile I was pregnant and the

(05:18):
Rogam shot, which isn'tapplicable to everybody.
A Rogam shot is only applicableto mothers who have a negative
blood type and a partner who hasa positive blood type.
I'm not going to go through allthe details of that because
it's not relevant to most peopleno, but it's very relevant to
our situation so we areabsolutely talking about that
okay.
Well, I guess the point is inpregnancy.

(05:38):
The recommendation for thispregnancy would have been to
receive a flu shot, a COVID shot, an RSV shot, a RhoGAM shot
while pregnant and post-birth.
And did I say Tdap, flu, rsv,covid, rhogam, tdap, so five
injections while pregnant.

So you're telling me you declined all those?

We declined all of those, yes, and the only one
that was really balked at wasthe Rogam.
I think I had made it prettyclear I wasn't getting any of
the other ones and so therewasn't much discussion around
those.
But Rogam was discussed severaltimes during pregnancy with the
midwife and the doctor, and Iwas just told over and over

(06:25):
again what a stupid decisionthat was, and they couldn't
understand why I would bedeclining it.
Nobody ever declines this.
Why would you decline it?
It's not a vaccine.
Well, so you want me to gothrough what it is?

Absolutely.

Okay.
So if you are a woman who has anegative blood type so A-neg,
o-neg, ab-neg, anything negative, the recess value negative, and
your partner, the father, has apositive blood type, your baby

(06:58):
could very well have a positiveblood type as well and is
actually more likely to have apositive blood type.
If that happens when you arepregnant or during birth, if
there's any baby's blood, so thepositive blood that enters the
mother's bloodstream, it will ormay create a immune response

(07:21):
that creates antibodies againstthe positive blood type.
It's very rare that any issuewould occur with the current
pregnancy.
The risk is to any futurepregnancy.
So he was not at risk of havingany type of sensitization
attack from my immune system,but the conversation was always

(07:42):
around.
If you have another kid and youare sensitized from this
pregnancy, your body may attackthe fetus.
So you may suffer severalmiscarriages.
If the baby is like brought toterm, they could be anemic
because your immune system isattacking the fetus.
And so they say you know, inorder to prevent that and keep

(08:05):
the baby in utero, they would doinner utero blood transfusions,
where they go in, actuallyparalyze the baby temporarily
and then inject blood into thebaby to keep them from being
anemic because my immune systemwould be attacking the baby
because it recognizes it as likea foreign invader with the with

(08:25):
the blood type.
So they ask you or tell you youhave to get this RhoGAM shot,
which basically is a temporaryinfusion of plasma that carries
these antibodies to prevent yourbody from becoming sensitized.
I got the shot with with boththe girls, scarlett and Layla.
It's interesting because Ididn't need it with Layla

(08:47):
because she has negative bloodtype.
I did need it with Scarlett, orneed it you know quotes and so
with Scarlett I had it whilepregnant and then immediately
after birth as well, becausethat's the recommendation this
time around.

Oh, two times.

Yes, yes.
So with Layla, after she wasborn and they tested her blood
type, they're like oh, she'snegative, so you don't need to
get Rogam.
The annoying thing about thatis you can find out while you
are pregnant what your baby'sblood type is.
It's a part of the 12 week.
What do they call that?

(09:22):
Genetic testing?
I didn't know that until laterin this pregnancy.
So I we went through the genetictesting at 12 weeks, got it
back and then I asked, as wewere having all these Rogam
conversations of like, well,can't we find out, like, what
baby's blood type is?
And they said, well, we couldhave, we could have done that
when you did the genetic testing, but you already did it, so we
didn't check that box.
Well, why the hell not Like,already did it?

(09:45):
So we didn't check that box.
Well, why the hell not Like,why wasn't that a conversation,
right?
So we ended up I ended upsaying, well, I want the test
redone, because if the baby'snegative, then this is a moot
point, we can stop talking aboutit.
If the baby's positive, youknow, my husband and I can
continue to have thisconversation and make a decision
for ourselves, but right nowwe're talking so many
hypotheticals, right.
So they agreed to redo thescreening, pay cash for it out

(10:07):
of pocket it was like 250 bucks.
But I was so annoyed becauseI'm like here I am, you know my
blood type.
Why wouldn't you have includedthis as part of the testing to
begin with, to avoid giving mepharmaceuticals that I may not
need right?
First red flag, but anyway.
So baby came back positive, sothe conversation was still on
the table.

(10:27):
So Rogam, again, it'stechnically not a vaccine, it's
a human plasma injection and asyou look into Rogam, it is
comprised of pooled human blood,so multiple donors.
You're not receiving plasma forone specific donor, you're
receiving it from up to eightdifferent donors.

(10:48):
And that was a red flag for mebecause, as we have talked about
with COVID, there's concernsfrom our perspective on the
amount of spike protein that mayexist in people's bodies and
certainly the amount of peoplewho got the COVID shot.
Am I interested in acceptingblood from up to eight different

(11:10):
donors who may have had severalCOVID injections or COVID
several times, or may have a tonof spike protein in their blood
?
And so that was my thoughtprocess and the doctors were all
like, oh, it's all filtered,it's fine.
Well, on the website.
Maybe I pull it up so I'm likereal specific on it.

Sure.

Of course the blood is filtered, but there's a
very clear disclaimer that saysthere's no guarantee that
you're not going to pass anyblood infectious diseases like
HIV or anything.
So that's true of like any anytransfusion, Right.
So the risk is relatively lowfor that.
But my, my concern was really,you know, do I want a blood

(11:52):
product, as I'm sitting herewatching all this illness and
sudden death occur around aroundus post COVID, Right?
So it was very different.

Well, yeah, yeah, exactly, and that's the biggest
thing right, you got all thesepeople that have been vaccinated
.
I mean, it's a good question toask, it's.
You have all of these peoplethat have been vaccinated and
all of these people that havehad COVID a number of times.
We have absolutely no ideawhat's going on with this spike
protein and for me, as I'mthinking about it for you, that

(12:27):
is not a risk I'm willing totake.
I am not willing because youand I are both unvaccinated
against COVID.
We never got the COVID vaccineto take a risk for you to have a

(12:48):
blood product that may or maynot contain this, in which we
don't know, we're not, you know,we're not the science guys,
we're not analyzing this stuff,but it just you kind of ask the
question, it kind of makeslogical sense that you could
have an issue there.

Yeah.
And so what they do addressthis on the Rogan website where
they say you know, itinactivates the enveloped
viruses or those covered with afatty outer coat similar to
COVID-19.
So what that said to me is well, it's not fully removed.
They've done something to thespike protein to inactivate it,

(13:18):
and that.
That, to me, is not the samething.
Again, I'm not a scientist, I'mjust sitting here looking at it
critically and I will say, I'mlooking at it from the lens of
this is preventative.
This isn't life-saving.
So you know.
They asked me, you know, are youwilling to have a blood
transfusion?
Well, yeah, if I'm bleeding outon the table, dying, of course
I want you to take life-savingmeasures.
I'm not signing a DNR, I'm notsaying that I don't want blood

(13:41):
ever.
I'm saying from a preventativeperspective why am I going to
inject up to eight differentplasma donors into my body while
I'm carrying a baby that I alsodon't know a lot about?
Right, why would I do thatpreventatively?
So, and then it took it alittle farther of like what is

(14:02):
actually the risk of me becomingsensitized, and the risk varies
from each partner set becauseit's based on, like your blood
types and so because I'm apositive or I'm a negative and
you're a positive.
We actually do carry thehighest risk of sensitization,
but the risk level was 16% thatI would become sensitized, and

(14:24):
so, from our perspective, thisis our third 16, but that was
with other factors, wasn't it?
no 16 that I would becomesensitized.
But the thought is again, thisis what was the whole point if
you got a fever oh, that's gbs.
That's the next thing.

This this is still Rogan oh okay, okay, sorry.
That's okay, keep going.

I know this is why I didn't want to get in the
weeds, but it's okay, so I'malmost done.
So I have a 16% chance ofbecoming sensitized.
If I become sensitized, thereis a blood test that I can take
to tell me that I'm sensitizedand then we can take prevent

(15:07):
ourselves to not get pregnantagain.
Right, it's no guarantee, but,like the risk of becoming
sensitized was so low, the riskto this baby was practically
none.
We don't even know if we wantto have a fourth child.
So this is all so hypotheticalconversation that we decided
that it's a, it's a hard no.
And over and over and overagain, they were just like this
is crazy.
Nobody, nobody ever, does this.
Why would you want to risk this?
So many unplanned pregnancieshappen.
Like what, what are you goingto do?
And I got asked several timesin the hospital like, am I going

(15:30):
to get my tubes tied or not?
The hospital at my appointments, if I'm going to get my tubes
tied or if I'm going to have myhusband have a vasectomy.
And I just looked at them again.
I'm like, if I come backsensitized, then we can have
that conversation, but we don'teven know that I'm going to
become sensitized at this pointthey're just assuming that the
16 chance is going to beautomatic.
Yeah, they're just making thisassumption that I'm going to be

(15:50):
sensitized and it's like I maynot be so fast forward to being
in the hospital and in labor.
We're declining rogam and I'mliterally in active labor,
having contractions, leaningover the bed in pain, and this
doctor comes in and is liketossing the paperwork over to us
about how stupid it is, andliterally looks at Jason and

(16:12):
says, so, are you having avasectomy or is she going to
have her tubes tied?
Yeah, literally asking me thatquestion.
I was literally in the middleof a contraction and I just
looked at him and I took areally deep breath, him and I
took a really deep breath andI'm just like we will test my
blood after birth to see if I'msensitized and we will test it
again at six weeks.
Testing blood after birth isstandard anyways.

(16:34):
What I'm asking for is to alsotest it at six weeks and they're
like we don't really have aprotocol for that.
But whatever, so fast forwardafter birth, so fast forward
after birth.
My initial blood tests came backzero antibodies present.
As of post-birth, I was notsensitized at all.
So we'll repeat the test at sixweeks to see and then you and I

(16:56):
will know whether or not wehave a super high risk to have
another baby.
Or we're in the clear to haveanother baby.
Should we choose to do thatRight Again.
It's so hypothetical, butthat's.
Or we're in the clear to haveanother baby.
Should we choose to do thatRight Again.
It's so hypothetical, butthat's where we're at Incredible
, absolutely incredible.

I actually looked at it as a very easy.
This was a very easy thing forme because, as we've grown
closer to God, it's like if Godwants us to have another baby,
he's going to allow us to haveanother baby, and if we can't
have another baby, then we won'thave another baby.
To me, we already have twobeautiful children.
We're adding a third Like thisis more than I could have ever

(17:33):
asked for.

Yeah, you said that right away.
I'm fretted over it a lot, andyou're just like Rachel if we're
meant to have another child,we'll have another child.
If we're not meant to haveanother child, we won't.

When you put your faith in the middle of these
decisions, it becomes so muchmore clear, so much more clear,
and you feel confident in yourdecision, because what those
doctors are selling on you isthat, oh, you're never going to
have another child.

Well, no, it was.
You're going to accidentallyget pregnant and have a really
sick, awful pregnancy.
And I think he said to me atone point why would you ever
want to put your baby throughthat?
And I'm just looking at it, I'mlike I don't.
Well, of course I don't.
Nobody wants that.
Are you kidding?
Like what a stupid thing to ask.
But I think what you said is soreflective of what this entire
pregnancy and birth has been ofjust like really leaning into

(18:27):
faith and faith over fear, faithover fear.
I mean, the fear comes and youjust got to push through it with
your faith.
But yeah, so that's, that's theRogam thing.

All right, that's.
That's only a portion of it.
Yeah, and that's great.
Ok, victory for us on Rogam,right, you could.
That's only a portion of it.
Yeah, and that's great.
Okay, victory for us on programRight.
You could say that so far yeah.
I wasn't sensitized post-birth.

So you were asking about risk factors.
So, like what I had told themalong the way too, is like if
something happens and there'sreason to believe that there's
some type of internal bleedingor cross cross meshing of of
blood like I get into anaccident, or there's some sort
of trauma that happens, or birthis really traumatic, or when
the placenta comes out it's, youknow, deteriorated, or there's

(19:13):
bleeding from the placenta orsomething Then there's a clear
indication that, like, our bloodcould have cross paths and then
your risk level, I think, issignificantly greater and I
could choose to get Rogam upuntil seven days post birth.
So, like what I was saying islike, as of now, this is a very
healthy pregnancy, birth wasvery healthy.
There was zero reason tobelieve that our risk level was

(19:35):
anything greater than that 16%and that 16% for us was enough
to be like okay, we have threekids, we're willing to take that
risk of potentially not havinga fourth.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, that made a lot of sense to me.
Yeah, all right, so let's gointo this GBS thing and what the
heck that was, because this waskind of an interesting
conversation and I'll tell you.
I'll tell you, saying no tothese things is hard.

(20:05):
Yeah, you're in the middle ofthe moment here.
Rachel just said she's in themiddle of a contraction when
she's being talked about thesebig decisions.
Are you doing this or are younot?
And we've already told them noto begin with.
But they just want to make sure.
Just like any salesman, anysalesman, I want to go sell you

(20:28):
this little widget.
I go knock on your door andyou're like nope, not interested
.
Well, I'm going to come backagain tomorrow.
I may call you, I may send youa mailer, I may end up, you know
, knocking on your door again.
I really want to pester you, toget you to say yes, because

(20:49):
that's what sales is To breakyou down.
Yeah, you get six no's.
You might get yes on a seventhattempt.
This is the same exacttechnique that they use in the
hospital and you have to beprepared for it.

Yeah, and it's upsetting because, like you said
, we'd already stated all ofthese things and so to then come
back, when you're in distressand a heightened emotional state
and pressure, again amongst allthis fear, and ask such pointed
, direct, really unprofessionalquestions of okay, well, are you
going to have a vasectomy, Areyou going to get your tube size?

(21:25):
Like well, I'm in the middle ofhaving a baby Like what a
ridiculous thing to ask us inthis moment.

And just so this is clear this was the doctor
that delivered our baby.
If you've been following me onInstagram lately, I've been
posting a few ex comments andyou can go out to my ex and you
can see all the things that I'vebeen kind of talking about.
This doctor, egomaniac, fearmonger, actually one of the

(21:54):
number one fear salesmen I haveever met and a guy who's been in
the business for it is abusiness, been in the business
for 30 plus years and you know,here's the beautiful part is
that we did get to have, afterWes was born, we did get to have

(22:15):
over an hour conversation withhim.
He stayed with us for over anhour and he really wanted to
have a dialogue with us, and sothat's where we really got to
learn about him, his thoughtprocesses.
And I asked him point blank I'mlike you know, there's a lot
happening right now.
When you got Kennedy that'sgoing in and he's shaking up

(22:38):
everything, how do we know thatall of these recommendations are
still going to be withheld inthe next couple months?
And what did he say to us?
He says, well, we're just notgoing to listen to anything that
Kennedy says because he's notusing evidence-based science.
Yeah, I think our jaw droppedto the floor when he said that I

(23:03):
literally think our jaw droppedto the floor.
When he said that I literallythink our jaw dropped to the
floor, like I almost wanted to.
It's like, wow, we can't breakthis.
You can't break through tosomebody like this because he's
completely closed off intohearing new information, which
doesn't make any sense, becausefrom what I know about science

(23:25):
is that it's always changingright, it's always getting
improved and better and better.

Yeah, the whole Bernie Sanders statement about
the science is settled goesagainst everything that science
is about and says science isnever settled.

It's never settled .

It's never settled Right.

Yeah, but you have , you have doctors and the
healthcare professionals thatare one way, one way only, Okay,
and so they don't want to havethis dialogue of differing views
.
So yeah, so, yeah.
So that was very troubling,Very troubling for us.
But let's go back to you know,we'll certainly go into more

(24:03):
conversations about what we havewith that doctor.
He did a beautiful job withdelivery of Wes though I just
want to make that very clear.
He did, he did a beautiful job,Very skilled in my opinion of
you know the delivery process ofa baby yeah, the actual
delivery was very smooth, yeah,in terms of the recommendations
and the advice I would not take.

In bedside manner .
I would, yeah, in bedsidemanner.

I certainly would not recommend him to go.
And you know, talk to him aboutyour health.
I just I would not.

Yeah.

And, but in terms of oh, he's going to deliver
your baby, yeah, no problem.
Like very skilled at that.
But yeah, let's go back to theGBS thing.
What is that and why was thatsuch a big deal for us?

Yeah.
So another thing that wasdifferent, just by whatever
reason.
So when you're I can't rememberif it's like 34 or 36 weeks,
but in third trimester, gettingclose to delivery period, they
do a group B strep test on themom.
They swab your, your femininearea and check to see if you're

(25:06):
carrying group B strip.
I had never looked into thispreviously because I was
negative with my last twopregnancies and this one came
back positive and so at the lastminute, I'm like, oh crap, okay
, what does this mean?
And what do I think about it?
Because what they said was oh,it's no big deal, it doesn't
mean you're sick or anything.

(25:27):
All it means is, when you comein for labor and the hospital,
we're going to give youantibiotics.
Well, that was a yellow flagfor me, because I'm like why are
you going to be giving meantibiotics while I'm pregnant
If I'm not, you know,technically sick?

(25:48):
Well, the whole reason is isthat, as the baby passes through
the birth canal, there is aslight risk and when I say
slight I mean half a percent to2% risk that you will transfer
group B strep to your baby asthey're passing through the

(26:09):
canal half a percent to twopercent chance yes of
transmission.
Okay, just then there's anotherlayer which I don't have this
exact stat.
But if you transfer or if itgoes to baby, there's no
guarantee that baby's going toget sick.
But if baby then gets sick,there is a chance that the baby

(26:30):
could get very, very sick.
It can be very serious whereyou know, baby spikes a fever
and can get encephalitis, whichis swelling of the brain, can go
septic very quickly, which isinfection in their bloodstream,
and it can be deadly.
It can be very serious.
But again, that's the secondlayer.
So the first layer is there'svery, very low risk that you're

(26:52):
even going to transmit it toyour baby.
And then there's the otherlayer, and I don't have that
exact stat, Like I said, thatit's going to make them sick.
So I'm looking at this and I'mlike, okay, like that doesn't
seem very sick.
You know it's very low riskagain.
And do I want to, you know,give antibiotics to myself and

(27:15):
to my baby and completely wipeout the microbiome before birth
even starts?
Right, the microbiome in yourgut is your immune system and if
we're wiping out both mine andbaby's, like, yes, baby's gonna
get antibodies from mom throughbreastfeeding.
That was my plan, but I'mwiping out my microbiome in my

(27:36):
gut and my baby's.

So that was a little bit of a which is, as of
recently, a lot more talkedabout.
If you follow healthinfluencers or if you just kind
of stay up to date on, like thepeople that are leading this
whole health charge, a lot ofthings that are happening with
the body.
Start with the gut and themicrobiome.

(27:59):
Why the hell does it seem likea good idea to have antibiotics
injected into you for a low-riskpotential half a percent to 2%
chance but a very, very strongrisk of wiping out all of your

(28:20):
microbiome?

Yeah, and there's another layer too.
So I said they test you.
I think it's 36 weeks becauseit's right before you're
considered full term.
So they test you at 36 weeks.
And as you're reading aboutGroup B strep, it literally says
like women can test positive ornegative on like any given day,
like sometimes you could showthat you have it and other times
you could show that you don'thave it.

(28:42):
And so I was like I was talkingto a lot of friends about this
and they're like, yeah, you canrequest to be retested closer to
your due date, because then ifyou come back negative you
wouldn't have to take theantibiotics.
And I'm like, well, actuallythis doesn't even make sense,
because if I test negative at 36weeks, why wouldn't you keep
testing me to make sure that Idon't later test positive?

(29:03):
So to me, right there, I waslike they're obviously not as
worried about this.
Otherwise they would keeptesting you, right, like if the
risk is really that high, theywould keep testing you up until
your due date in case you show apositive, because otherwise
they could miss a positive.
If women can truly go positive,positive, negative at any point
, you wouldn't just rely on thisone test.

(29:25):
That's potentially four to fiveweeks prior, before you're
giving birth all right.

So we were talking about the microbiome, and you
know why would you do that toyou and the baby and wipe it out
, right?

when you have low risk and and not even know for
sure that you still have it.

So that was the thing, oh and what I wanted to
bring up was what didn't makesense to me is that they tested
you positive three weeks priorto birth, Right, and I'm like
well, well, wait a second.
So why are you gettingantibiotics when you're not like
sick, or we haven't recentlytested you to see if you still

(30:02):
have that same result?
Yeah Right, Doesn't that makesense?
Like why would?
Oh, hey, I had a.
I don't know, maybe this islike too simple, but hey, I had
a, you know a cough three weeksago.
I no longer have the cough, butI'm going to start taking cough
medicine, Like you know is thatlike similar well, kind of.

I mean, I think this infection never like shows
like it doesn't make you sickfor the woman ever.
So it's a little bit different,but same thing.
Yeah, it's like am I carryingthis today or am I carrying it
in two weeks?
And the answer was we didn'tknow.
All we knew is that I had it at36 weeks and, as I looked at it
like a little more closely to,this is like kind of gross, but

(30:46):
it's a lot more common foranybody to carry it in their
rectal area versus in thevaginal area.
And when they swab you I'm justtrying to like lay out my risk
levels, right?
So when they swab you, theyswab both areas.
And so that was something Isaid to the midwife too.
I said, look, you tested methree weeks ago and I said you

(31:07):
don't even know if I have it inmy vagina.
All you know is that I have itin one of those two places.
So, like you know, and she'slike well, it's all right there
and I'm like but the baby's notgoing through my butt.
I know it sounds so stupid.

Let's bring the logic back into this right.

I mean, you're asking very legitimate questions
, I feel like I am, I'm justtrying to understand the whole.
This whole pregnancy and birthwas all about understanding the
risks so we could make a risktolerance decision.
And so, like I'm not sittinghere saying everybody should
make these same decisions as me,because everybody's risk
tolerance is different and yourrisk factors are different, so
there were risk factors thatwent along with this too.

So I think it's very important to recognize that
everybody has different risktolerances, that is like that's
a, that's a very yes, that's avery, very big thing.
And most people don't know ifthey even have a tolerance for
any type of risk, because I'dsay the average person has zero
tolerance for risk.
That is why they don't startbusinesses, that is why they
don't buy real estate outside oftheir home.

(32:06):
That is why they keep it safe.
They only have a 401k.
They don't take other risk.

Yeah.
And so if you're looking atthis and you're like, wow, you
know, 2% is actually really highor 16% is really high, I don't
want to take that risk, well,that's fine, that's your choice.
You should be able to make thatchoice.
You should just understand theinformed consent and the true
risk.
So you make the choice foryourself.
That's all.
I think.
It's the this is 100% going tohappen to you, so you have to do

(32:35):
it.
Attitude that we have an issuewith.

That is totally right.
It's wrong and it's fearmongering and it's sold by these
professional fear salesmen.

Yeah.

Which are called doctors Right.

So back to GBS so many layers here of things that
I'm looking at right, the riskfactors if you're a younger
mother, if you are of AfricanAmerican descent, if you had a
GBS positive in the past or ifyou had a GBS come through in
your urine.

(33:07):
So they test your urine whenyou're pregnant every time you
go into the doctor if there'sany like proteins passing
through or other things.
And I didn't have any of that.
So I didn't fit the ethnicity,the age, the history or any GBS
in my urine.
So to me I was also like, okay,I'm not carrying risk factors.
I currently don't even know ifI'm positive today because they

(33:28):
refused to retest me and I don'twant to retest you.
Yeah, and I don't even know forsure that it was in.
You know the area that the babywas going to be coming out of,
and had I tested negative at 36weeks, they wouldn't be
retesting me to see if I waspositive.
So to me, that said, they knowthe risk was very low.

(33:49):
This is just their standardizedprocedure.
So fast forward to being inlabor, being at the hospital,
they're trying to hook me up.
And why are you decliningantibiotics?
This is really scary.
This one really concerns me.
Babies do get sick and babiesdie.

Says the first nurse.

Says the first, nurse Says the first nurse.

Yeah, okay, first nurse.
Then, yeah, hold on, I have to,I have to go leave and I have
to go get somebody else.

Yeah, it was very much like we're.
We're going to have somebodyelse come talk to you about this
, because this is a really bigdeal.
Okay, again, havingcontractions and labor.

This person comes walking in and both people are
there.
Now she starts saying her spiel.

Well she's.
This is the NICU.

Okay, this is the NICU, the NICU doctor.

They were like they're like we're going to have
somebody from NICU come andtalk to you so you understand
how serious this is.
And so she gave the same, gavethe same spiel.

Oh, but also at the same time first nurse goes
into the cabinet and pulls out afolding chair for NICU nurse to
sit down.
Oh yeah, this was definitely along conversation, this was a
very specific charade it was alecture, as if she was doing

(35:05):
this, pulling this chair outfrom the cabinet, like, oh this
is going to be a very longconversation, please sit down.
That's, that's the way I readthat.
Did you read that?

oh yeah, they were there to convince us they
were there, they weren't leaving.
Yeah, for sure so she starts offwith all the same stuff.
You know this is very serious.
You can pass this to your baby.
Babies get very sick, they getseptic and they die, and so we
don't like seeing sick babies orbabies die, and that's why we
give it to them.
It's an antibiotic, it'sperfectly safe.

(35:36):
There's no reason why you knowyou should feel any risk to take
it.
Okay, relatively safe.
Of course, yes, I get that.
Antibiotics have been aroundforever.
They're wonderful, wonderfultool of Western medicine.
But again, we're talkingpreventative right, preventative
measures when we don't evenknow for sure that this exists

(35:59):
and should baby get sick,there's treatment available.
We're right there in thehospital, there's treatment
available.
And so I actually called thepediatrician as we were waiting
for this charade to start, andtalked with them about it, and
they, they were like, like yeah,we get like, while you're
trying to decline it.
The problem is, if you declineit, they're probably going to

(36:19):
want to keep baby there, whichthey did.
Tell us that.
They said if you're going todecline this, you're going to
have to be here three days.
We're going to monitor baby.
And what my doctor said was youknow, they may even say that
they have to do extra bloodtests on baby and then, if they
see any risk factors at all,they would just start
antibiotics on baby.
And so what they did say is youknow you have to decide if

(36:40):
you're comfortable with that,because obviously baby getting
antibiotics directly versusthrough you while pregnant is
more of a damage to theirmicrobiome than if they're
getting that.
So that was that was aconsideration.
It was like, okay, you know, doI want them to come in and tell
me we have no choice but togive this baby antibiotics?
No, I don't, and I didn't atany point want our control over

(37:02):
the situation to be limited,because that was definitely a
conversation being put on thetable.
Is you know, if, if the doctorsat any time feel like you're,
you know, making unsafe choicesfor your baby, they can?
They can intervene, and sothat's something to keep in mind
, being in Illinois for sure.

I want to point out okay, we're doing a podcast
and we're talking about thingsthat, like I'm pretty sure, the
average person has no idea whatthe fuck is going on.

I mean, we didn't with our last two kids,
literally yeah, we had no idea.

Okay, but unfortunately you just have to
put yourself like.
You have to learn this shit.
And here's the compliments thatwe did get from these nurses
who were disagreeing with us,but at the same time we were

(37:56):
rational enough we could talkamongst each other of what we
wanted to do.
Again, I think we had a numberof conversations going into the
hospital kind of with a setmindset of, like we've done our
homework, we kind of know.
But these are some other things.
Like I wasn't prepared for anantibiotic conversation.

Well, right, that was a last minute thing, but I
think your point was the nursesaid to us you know, you, you
guys, you guys are a littledifferent.
You're very informed, you'vedone your research, you, clearly
, you know, feel comfortable inyour staffs, and so then it
shifted to, you know, thehospital's just worried about
liability.
So, you know, we just want tomake sure that you, you know,

(38:32):
fully understand the risk fromour perspective.
And if you do, then that's fine.
But it was interesting, theNICU nurse came in, gave her
whole spiel and then I gave myrebuttal, which was everything
that I just said right.
And I gave my rebuttal, whichwas everything that I just said
right, I don't have these riskfactors.
You know, I haven't been testedin the last three weeks.
You know, blah, blah, blah, Iwent through these whole things
and then it was.
You know and I'm not sayingthat I'm set in stone on this

(38:55):
decision, because should I get afever during labor?
That's one of the other riskfactors is, if mom has a fever
during labor that gives anindication of infection being
present, then that is.
If mom has a fever during laborthat gives an indication of
infection being present, thenthat's a different story, right?
If I have a fever, obviouslythere's some type of infection
happening and I don't want thatto transfer to my baby.
So my risk tolerance hasshifted right, because my risk
is greater of transferringinfection to the baby.

(39:16):
And then the second one is mywater had broke before we even
got to the hospital and so yourrisk of transferring any
infection to baby, including GBS, goes up the longer your bag
has been broken and it's aroundlike 12 to 18 hours where they
really start getting concerned.
They want baby delivered within24 hours of your bag breaking,

(39:40):
because risk is just higher ofinfection and concern because
there's nothing protecting thebaby.
So I also knew in my head okay,my bag broke at two and so the
clock was ticking right, Like Idid know that, and so I said to
them.
I said should I get a fever?

What time is it?
Right now, when we're havingthis conversation.

It's like six.

Six.

It was like six o'clock, it was like four hours,
right, and so I said to them Isaid it's not that I am like so
bullish, you know, and recklessthat I'm saying I'm not getting
it at all.
I'm saying, right now there isno indication that I, that I
need this to protect the baby.
Right, like, it's really reallyminimal, low risk.

(40:20):
Should that change?
I'm open to having thisconversation again, same with
Rogam.
Right Like, should I have had atraumatic birth?
Should there have been damageto the placenta?
Should there have beenindication of like blood
transferring?
Okay, the conversation shiftsbecause there is a clear reason
or indication that risk haschanged and you may want to take
that preventative measure now.

(40:40):
So this NICU doctor listens toeverything he said, very
respectfully listened, and shesays to us she goes I don't
disagree with anything you justsaid.
I was like, okay, ding, ding,ding, ding, ding.
She's like you know, thehospital just wants to make sure
that you understand the risk.
You're not going to come backand sue us.
And she's like the risk is verysmall.

(41:00):
She's like the risk is very,very small that your baby's
gonna get gbs.
But if your baby doesn't getgbs, it could be very serious
and we don't like seeing sickbabies or babies dying.
Well, obviously, I don't either.
Like I don't, I don't, I don'twant to treat you.

these people want to treat you that you are the
devil and you want sickness anddeath to happen to your newborn
child it is.

It is.

It's insane that the way that they they position
their comments.
Of course not.
It was so mean conversation.
Do you remember when I gottrapped in the doctor's office
with my previous doctor and Itold him this was in probably

(41:49):
mid-2023, I told him I was nolonger like I'm not vaccinated
for COVID and there's no chancein hell that I'm going to get it
?
And he turned and he says oh,you're one of those guys, huh.
And I'm like well, aftereverything that's happened and
everything we've learned,there's no reason for me to get
it.
He's like well, I don'tdisagree with you because you're
young, you're, you know, you'rehealthy, you're a fit guy, but
at the end of the day, you havea moral responsibility to

(42:11):
protect your neighbor, and sothat trumps all of that.

Which, of course, we know now isn't even factual.

That isn't even factual Right.
So that type of mindset of well, you, and that's the insane
fear-mongering mindset thatthese medical professionals have

(42:36):
, and I'm telling you, these arepeople that have been in this
business for 30 plus years andyou can't break out of that-
yeah, and it's so unfortunatebecause, as a mom going through
all these hormonal changes,being in labor, in that moment
I'm already at a little bit of adisadvantage.

But like spewing all that fear to you, it sticks
with you.
I mean it.
I felt very confident in ourdecisions before, during and
after, but there's still thatfear that pops up because it's
it's presented so strongly insick and dying babies over and
over again.
Right Cause that's what he saidto me about Rogam too.

(43:14):
It's like why would you want toput your baby through that?
I mean, it's just so much painYou're going to be paralyzing
them in utero to give them ablood transfusion.
Why would you do that?

What was the actual chance of me doing that?

There's like six things that have to happen in
order for me to even get to thatpoint.

Worst case scenario literally they put that
in front of your face and thethe risk of that is is low right
and here's the here's.
The funny thing is that thisnicu nurse she's like oh, well,
doctor I, I think you are doctor.
Oh, doctor, yeah she was adoctor, oh, okay, okay, good, I
didn't recognize that.
So, nicu doctor, I think youwould ask well, do you have any

(43:50):
data to support this?
And she's like oh, yes, I do.
And she goes over to hercomputer and she's like we have
this great database.

Yeah, because it was always like so they always
use the words so many babieswould get sick and die.
And I said, you know, I hearthese words.
And I said, when I look at likethose actual numbers that I had
shared with her, I said I'mhaving a hard time reaching this
.
So many, you know what, whatdoes that even mean?
Do you have numbers to backthat up?
Right, because you hear so many.
And you're like, oh my God,that means everybody, right.

(44:17):
And so she's like yeah, I do.
Actually we have a wholecomputer system that looks at
all the risk.
Funny, all the risk factorsthat I had mentioned, right, age
, ethnicity, fever duringpregnancy, previous GBS, all the
risk factors that I had statedwere categories on this little
analytics tool that they had.
So she pulls it up on thecomputer, she goes okay, so I'm

(44:37):
going to put in your riskfactors.
You're right, you don't haveany risk factors.
So then it spit out a numberand it was like 0.002% or
something.

It was less than 1%.

Yeah, it was so small.

Like close to zero .

Yeah, it was so small, like close to zero.

Yeah, it was so small.
Okay, close to zero so it justvalidated.

You know my own research.

Thank you for actually bringing in the data
yeah, and allowing me to seewhat my risk percentage is,
because that's very helpfuljason was literally sitting in a
chair with his legs crossed,like he's in a corporate meeting
, looking at the computer screenof the data it.

It was actually quite comical.

But then okay, but then here's where we, you know,
the risk tolerance started togo up a little bit, because
she's like, well, let's just sayyou spike a fever, right.
And she's like, okay, now, your, now, your fever is at 104,
right, she put in 104.

Yeah, whatever.
Yeah, just to show thedifference.

Just to show the difference.
I think she difference, I thinkshe said 100.4, because that's
no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.
It was either 102 or 104.
It was one of those it was.

Oh, it was 102 it was okay, all right 102.
I remember now.
Yeah, so she puts in the riskfactor 102 and then also added
in a second risk factor of yourbag's been broken for 18 hours
or whatever you haven'tdelivered, and then it went up
to.
I think the risk oftransmission was like five
percent and then something likeworst case scenario.

There's a worst case scenario of like 20 percent
yeah.

And so what they tried to tell you is like you
could spike a fever an hourbefore you deliver the baby and
the antibiotics won't havegotten to you or gotten to baby
in time for delivery.
And that is a risk, right, andthat's why I said like I'm I'm
watching my bag breaking.
But, yes, that that is aconsideration.

(46:22):
Right Is, if at the very end,you all of a sudden get a fever
and they didn't get theantibiotics into you soon enough
, then they're going to giveantibiotics to the baby.
Having been this my third timego around, knowing my own
personal health, knowing my veryhealthy deliveries again, I
just felt confident in how itwas going to go.

(46:45):
That may not be true foreverybody and I could have been
wrong, right, and then we wouldhave had to take the next step
of okay, now, now we needtreatment, and now you know this
, or whatever.
But again none of those riskfactors were present.

So yeah, you didn't spike a fever.

I didn't spike a fever and they did tell us.
They said you know, we're we'reprobably going to want you to
stay here for a few daysafterwards to monitor baby.
And that had kind of suckedbecause we definitely wanted to
be out like within 24 hours.
But we agreed, we're like okay,funny thing is the next day
after baby's born they came inmidday, so we hadn't even been

(47:24):
there 24 hours.
And they're like you guys wantto go home tomorrow.
And I'm just looking at themand I'm just like, well, I, I
thought you needed to likemonitor us for like three days
because this was such a big riskfactor.
Right, what the?

hell, dude.
There was actually a lot ofdisconnects.
They wanted to get us out.
There was a lot of disconnectsthat were happening there as
well, because we also declinedthe vitamin K shot, which is a
very big deal, which was anotherbig doctor, big deal.
Okay, and and I'll even saythis, of the people that we know

(47:59):
that did not vaccinate theirchildren for kind of the
standard vaccines, they stilldid vitamin K.

Most people.
Most people still do Noteverybody, but most people.

Right, yeah, and because let's go into it, what's
the risk factor or what couldit potentially cause if you
don't get vitamin k?
Or why do?
Why do we even give, why do weeven administer vitamin k?

yeah.
So for me, like, it's a goodquestion.
Yeah, there's a lot of layershere.
So, and because I had mentionedlike, or you had mentioned too,
like this journey was reallylike more rooted in faith and we
had zero faith with our lasttwo pregnancies, right, and
we've definitely stepped zero,zero zero faith yeah and we
found we reconnected with jesusand god with the election of

(48:44):
donald trump.

like we we talk about that in podcasts.
We fully believe that this manwas protected.
His life was literally shown ontv that he should have had his
brains blown out, but he was.
Somebody had a hand on him andthat was God and it turned me
into a believer instantly.

(49:05):
Instantly from seeing that onTV, yeah, and then, with the
election win and the mindset ofeverybody, all of a sudden I
just felt that there is a Godpresence.
And so we have found that We'veseen this Christianity sweep
where people finding Jesus andGod again across the world Like
this is not just me saying this.

(49:25):
This is like a massive movementof people doing this.

Yeah, so it's really interesting too If you
listen to our podcast with Anita.

Anita Palauz.

Yeah, we talked about faith in that podcast and
how, once you open yourself upto the faith, things start
coming to you and it'severywhere.
And so the vitamin K thingactually has an interesting
story where I started doing thiswomen's guided Bible reading,
probably about midway throughpregnancy or something, and I'm

(49:56):
in the very, very beginning inthe book of Genesis, like the
first book of the Bible, and afew chapters in they start
talking about circumcision andhow God commanded Abraham to
circumcise his son on day eight.
And I just had this like, like,obviously, if you're Jewish or
know anybody Jewish, you knowthat that's what they follow.
But I had this like, like,obviously, if you're Jewish or
know anybody Jewish, you knowthat that's what they follow.
But I had never like, actuallylike, made this connection that

(50:17):
that's stated so clearly in theBible.
And so I'm sitting there andI'm, like you, kind of wonder if
there's a reason of thesignificance of day eight
relative to you know, the baby'sproduction of vitamin K.
Going back to your originalquestion of like, why do they
give vitamin K?
Well, they say that babies aredeficient in vitamin K when they

(50:39):
are born, and this was kind oflike a red flag for me because
I'm just like why do we havethis standardized belief that
babies are born imperfect anddeficient at birth?
Like why do we believe that thesecond they come out of the
womb there's something wrongwith them and we need
pharmaceutical intervention?
Like maybe there's a reason whythey're deficient in vitamin K?

(51:02):
And I don't know, I don't havethat answer.
I've seen a couple of thingsrelative to well.
They don't need that muchvitamin K because of the cord
blood that's going into them,but I don't know that well
enough to speak like eloquentlyto it.
But I just felt this faithfuldrive as I was reading that of
just like there's a reason whyvitamin K is allegedly deficient

(51:26):
, um, and there's a reason whythe Bible says day eight, like I
just really leaned into thefaith around that and I felt the
timing of me finding that inthe Bible was really critical,
because we've been fretting overif we have a boy, what are we
going to do?
Because if you choose todecline vitamin K, our
particular hospital and manyhospitals across the country

(51:47):
will not circumcise the male inthe hospital Because they say if
you're deficient in vitamin K,you're at risk for a bleeding
disorder and so they want toinject vitamin K to get the
blood to clot.
Okay, we can start looking atthose risk numbers, because I
pulled those up too.

(52:08):
Oh, you got them Nice oh ofcourse.
I love the stats, so we got tobring the stats in.
Well, you know, because youhave to understand.
You have to understand whatyou're talking about, what is?

the risk factor.
All right, let's bring it up.
This is fantastic.
Anita Penalas.
We talked to her on episode 64,leaning into Faith with Anita
Penalas.
That was a two-hour and ten tenminute conversation.
That was so good.
It was such a good episode.

They say that this is vitamin K deficiency
bleeding.

Where are you on right now Chat GPT Okay.

Yeah, all right.

Yeah, I'd also be cautious with chat GPT.

I know You've said that it's just to like get
like some quick numbers.

Because if you put it in a grok it might be a
little different.

Yeah, I'm sure it is.
Well, you can do it.

What's the question?

Well, what are the chances of having the
vitamin K deficiency bleedingdisorder at birth?
Because even if all babies arelow in vitamin K at birth, that
doesn't mean that they're goingto have this, this bleeding
disorder.
I'll tell you, we knowfirsthand of somebody who

(53:30):
declined vitamin K at birth, hada pretty hard time getting the
doctors to do the circumcisionfor her son, but ultimately did
and there was minimal bleeding.
Again, that's not to say thatthat's true for everybody,
because there is risk, but it isjust to say that, like these
are not definitive things thatare going to occur.

This is probably where you want to define it.
Okay, vitamin K deficiencybleeding in newborns is rare but
can be serious.
The incidence varies dependingon whether vitamin k prophylaxis
is given at birth.
Okay, so without vitamin k, theshot.
The incidence of classic vkdb,which is a vitamin K deficiency

(54:12):
bleeding disorder occurringwithin the first week of life,
ranges from 0.25% to 1.7% ofnewborns.
0.25% to 1.7% of newborns.
That is your risk.

Right.

Zero to one to less than 2%.
Okay, great, now we know.

So then the question is okay, now we know
the risk of this disorderactually existing.

Oh, and with the shot it reduces.
Okay, here it is With the shotyou could do.
Routine intramuscular or oralvitamin K administration at
birth Reduces to riskdramatically.
It drops to near zero.

So you're taking your near zero and you're
dropping it closer to zero.

Yeah, I just want everyone to understand that.

Yeah, and again, like I said the same thing, like
okay, if there is a clear riskof bleeding.
Like we've known some peoplewho had to have, like the vacuum
deliver their baby, where, likethe vacuum sucks on the head,
and then the doctor's like, okay, like there's definitely a risk
of a brain bleed because wewere sucking on the baby's head
as it comes out, your risktolerance is different now

(55:26):
because there was some type oftrauma that was occurring at
birth where, if there was ableeding disorder to occur, you
obviously don't want your babyto be bleeding into your brain.
So that's something that youneed to think about and consider
, right.
So my answer was the same as wewere going through this, I'm
like, again, I've had a reallyhealthy pregnancy, no trauma.
Assuming this delivery goesreally well and there's no
trauma, I don't see a need togive vitamin K.

(55:47):
And I think somebody said to mewell, all birth is traumatic it
was the nurse.

It was the first nurse that did the very natural
right it was also a very naturalthing yep, that was the first
nurse with the chair, and so thereason we were so adamant about
vitamin k.

If we had a girl, 100 it wouldn't.
We would not be getting vitamink if we had a boy.
It was a conversation becauseof the circumcision right,
because they do in the hospitalon like day two or whatever.
And the reason that this washeightened for us is because
both of our daughters hadjaundice.
Layla had a very, very mildcase and Scarlett was more mild
too but did require follow-upbilirubin testing, and when we

(56:28):
first started looking into thisvaccine stuff discovered that
jaundice and elevated levels ofbilirubin are a direct side
effect from the vitamin K shot.

Can you pull it?
I'm sorry, can you pull that upwith the insert?

Oh, you're so good, you're so good.

You're so good.
Okay, Because this is.
This is a funny thing.
We I think the one nurse, thechair charade nurse she said why
do you not want to get vitamink?
Yeah, like she's just likebaffled, like why why would you
not do that?

and then your response was yeah, and they're
like because it's not a vaccine,it's, it's just a vitamin.
I'm like well, it's a syntheticvitamin that has preservatives
in it and aluminum.
Well, you can.
I think they said to me you,you, we have one that is
preservative free.
And I said said, it's stillsynthetic.
You're still giving a brand newbaby that you know nothing
about, who's born, perfect,right, like we don't know that

(57:22):
there's any deficiency thatexists, I don't know anything
about this baby to be concernedthat I need to start doing
pharmaceutical interventionpreventatively.
And I said that over and overagain.
I said, look, this is allcoming from a perspective of why
am I giving all of thispreventative pharmaceutical
measures to a child that justtook their first breath?

(57:45):
Like I don't know anythingabout them and you want me to
pump them with all thesepharmaceuticals that have side
effects.
By the way, there is nothingout there that is perfectly safe
, including food, right?
Anything you put into your bodycan have a positive, negative
or both reaction.

Hey, vitamin K is a vitamin.
There's no side effects, it'ssynthetic.

It's synthetic, and not to mention the whole
factor of like.
If you look into, like baby'sbodies and how things start
working, their systems startworking.
Their liver is not ready toprocess all of these
pharmaceuticals.
They are not capable ofhandling all of these things the
moment they're born.
It's, it's, it's okay, I'mgoing on a tangent.

All right.
So vitamin K.
So you said there is a link tojaundice from the vitamin K shot
and she didn't believe that,right.

She did not believe it, she had never heard
that.

She had never heard that.
She'd never heard.

I'm like I was like it's right in the package
insert.
So, funnily enough, as you godown the road of having your
children get vaccines or anypharmaceuticals, you know the
package insert that comes withthe product isn't readily
available to you as a parent.
They give you like a one or twopager summary of things to look
for, but that is not themanufacturer's package.

(58:55):
So you know, like when you goto the pharmacy and you get a
drug that was prescribed to you,there's like this big, like
pamphlet of all the small printthat has all this information.
That's like the, the inserts.
All of these are availableonline as well, on the FDA
website or the manufacturer'swebsite.
They have to put it out there.
So I'm on Pfizer's website andI've got vitamin K1 injection.
Pulled up At the very top of thefirst page is a warning.

(59:20):
This is often referred to asthe black box label and actually
they referred to that later onin here, but it says right at
the top severe reactions,including fatalities, have
occurred during and immediatelyafter intravenous injection of
phytodione, which is the actualname of this vitamin K.

(59:40):
It says it right at the top.
Even when precautions have beentaken to dilute this product
and to avoid rapid infusion,severe reactions, including
fatalities, have also beenreported following intermuscular
administration.
So at the very top of thisproduct is this warning, all in
caps, completely outlined in abox, telling you that there is

(01:00:04):
risk of severe reaction anddeath for this product.
Okay, so now I'm looking at andthe unfortunate thing about
this is it doesn't give youspecific numbers, but I will get
into that as we go further downinto the clinical trial data
that is included in the sensor.
I'm looking at less than 1%,almost 0% risk of this bleeding

(01:00:26):
potential to occur versus, youknow, injecting my newborn child
with a preventative drug thathas this level of a warning on
it.
So you go down, there's a wholebunch of information in here.
It and I'll tell you it theinsert's only five pages.
So it seems like, oh, we don'thave time to read all of this

(01:00:49):
stuff, and like it's it's meatyand it sucks and sometimes I
don't know what certain thingsmean.
So then I'm looking updefinitions, like it takes time
to do it, for sure, but it's not, like they're like 50 to 100
pages long, right, okay?
So then we go back down intoprecautions and pediatric use,

(01:01:19):
precautions and pediatric use,and right in here it says
hemolysis, which I don't knowwhat that is.
Jaundice and hyperbilirubinemiain neonates, particularly those
that are premature, may berelated to the dose of vitamin K
injection.
So, oh, wait, wait, wait, wait,wait, wait, wait, wait wait,
wait, wait, wait, wait.

Jason Wagner (01:01:36):
Does this mean that there could be a potential
link that vitamin K shot willlead to jaundice in your baby?

Rachel Wagner (01:01:43):
Right and so right.
So, like first time I saw thisI was like holy shit.
Like both of our daughters wereborn perfectly fine, didn't
have any signs of jaundice atbirth, everything was fine.
Get the vitamin k shot a fewhours later, all of a sudden, oh
shit, now they have jaundice.
Now they have to come back andget more tests.
It's like and I look at scarletparticularly because she had a

(01:02:05):
perfect apgar score when she wasborn like, literally like
during labor they kept tellingme gosh, her numbers are like
literally perfect.
She, she comes out, her Apgarscore is literally perfect,
there is nothing wrong with her.
And then all of a sudden she'sgot jaundice and we're coming
back into the lab several daysto get follow-up blood tests.

But, rachel, everyone gets jaundice, like I
was actually out talking to myneighbor.
It's no big deal.
I was actually out talking tomy neighbor and I remember her
saying that, oh, she hadjaundice.
Oh, her kids had jaundice, oh.
And then I said, oh yeah, mytwo kids had jaundice too.
And you know it's like, and sodid you.
Well, it's not that big.
Oh, yeah, I had jaundice.
It's not that big of a deal.
Everyone has jaundice, they getover it.

Yeah, but what is the?

actual risk of jaundice.
Let me look that up real quick.
Go to Grok.
Go to Grok.

I don't have Grok .
Oh wait, I have to go to X touse Grok.
I just go to X.

I actually want to bring that back because it was
pretty clear AI.
There's two differences here.
Chatgpt is going to give youthe old way of doing things.
Grok is going to give you thenewer, updated version of doing
things, because you clearlycouldn't find that risk factor
for getting the shot versus notgetting the shot for vitamin k.

(01:03:20):
Like you, you clearly couldn'tpick that up.
The first thing that popped up,and literally there's only so,
but there's only a few sentenceshere, and it tells me what the
risk factor is for grok right.

So so we have to be very, very careful with the
ai source that you are using tohelp with your research oh for
sure, well and yeah, a lot oftimes like I do that as my
initial search and then itprovides a link to the fda
insert or whatever.
Like it's just easier to find itbecause sometimes getting

(01:03:51):
through the fda or p or Pfizer'swebsite to actually find the
inserts is a very time consumingprocess.
But also I'm going to say Idon't know that this stat is
going to be with or without thevitamin K shot.

Well, it's just what, what is if you get
jaundice?
Like, if you get a seriouslevel of jaundice, what, what
could happen?
I guess that's what I want toknow.

I feel like joe roger right now hey jamie, hey,
pull that up real quick let'sresearch this yeah, I mean
basically, it's like your liveris not functioning so you can
get infections, urinary tractinfections, septus, impaired
liver function okay, so seriousit's like yeah okay, serious
stuff.

Sepsis sounds very serious yeah okay yeah all
right.
So that that's what jaundicecould lead to.

All right, yeah, all right so so, anyways, it's
listed right in the insert.
So as we started going downlike our, our vax journey with
our, with our other two kids, wewere like holy crap, like why
didn't anybody tell us that thereason that they could have had
jaundice was because of what wejust put in their body?
But they don't.
And yeah, I don't know, do weneed to go any further with that

(01:05:02):
one?

no, I mean I think that.
So well, yeah, let's talk aboutwes.
Wes's jaundice score.
What was it?
Oh yeah, yeah, okay, so umbecause that's like all right,
you didn't get the shot.

We didn't give Wes vitamin K and so you know,
technically he's still in thiswindow of showing.
Yeah, that's like the bleedingthing can occur, I think up to
like two weeks.
The risk goes down as you getfurther out of the hospital.

He's one week old today.

He's one week and one day old today.
Yeah, but they came in at 24hours to do his screening.
Yeah, but they came in at 24hours to do his screening and in
order to be a no risk category,he had to score below an eight
and he scored 3.8.
So he was very, very low, noteven borderline.

And that was the lowest jaundice score that we've
had, or belly ribbon test thatwe've had.

Yeah, both of our girls tested in risk categories
for jaundice and had to havefollow-up, follow-up testing.

So our unvaccinated for vitamin K child
did not have jaundice, did noteven come close to being a risk
factor.

No, and he had his follow-up pediatric
appointment and no issues.

Is bilirubin the same thing as jaundice?

Well, it's the bilirubin that they're testing
in the liver.
I I believe that tells youwhether or not you're in
jaundice or whatever.

Oh, okay it's the actual like thing they're
testing okay, yeah, so wow,fantastic result, yeah, the
absolute fantastic.

I mean so far, right, like yeah, so far, so far
everything is totally fineright, all right um the other
one that we don't need to touchon very much is hep, hep b.
They give babies a hepatitis bshot, like immediately, and we
decline that and literally likein all my ob appointments.

(01:06:47):
And then even at the hospital,every single person we talked to
was like I don't really careabout the hep b shot, that's
fine, and I'm just like then whyare you recommending it?

Because there's been enough news coverage of
that.

Yeah, because hepatitis B is something you can
only get from a sexualtransmitted disease or from
using dirty needles, and I don'tsee my newborn baby having any
issue with either of thosethings and he came home to a
home that doesn't have needlesor, you know, drug use in the
house.
So like the risk level is zeroand obviously I don't have

(01:07:19):
hepatitis and you don't havehepatitis.
So you know there's there's noreason.
But it was just fascinating tome because I expected like that
to be a thing too and literallylike the nurses, my doctors, the
pediatric doctors were like Idon't care if he doesn't get hep
B, I'm like, then why are yougiving it to them Every single?
one of them were like thatDidn't care yeah.

Even our doctor.

Oh, okay, even the wild Mr.
Yeah, the Provax everything.

Yeah.

He was like that's fine, I don't care about
that.
He actually also told me thathe wasn't as concerned about the
antibiotics either.
So that's not that.
One's not as big of a deal.

The likelihood of you actually transferring that's
pretty low and I was just likeokay I'm sorry, but you just had
two nurses here that came in,yeah, so the first one tried.
She had to get back up, okay.

Then they brought out the chair this is gonna be
a long conversation, then theybrought out, brought out the,
the data analysis.

I want you to see this and they couldn't.
Yeah, but that's the shitthat's going to happen.
Yeah, especially in andhopefully people listening to
this conversation are actuallygoing to learn a lot and just be
armed with what to expect,because we didn't know what to
expect at all.
I kind of knew that there wasgoing to be pushback, but I
didn't understand that it wasgoing to be repeated pushback

(01:08:34):
over and over and over again ona number of things While I was
in labor, while you were inlabor, like painful labor yeah
right, painful labor, because itwas we had people coming in
that was, you know, we had justgotten to the hospital.
Okay, we had this conversation.
You started to have some laborpains.
Then you started to have someserious labor pains and they
were still talking to you aboutthis.

(01:08:54):
And then the baby was born andthey were still talking to you
about this.
And then, upon exiting, theywere still talking to us about
this.
I mean, we had to say no,probably five times, easily,
five times.

Yeah.

And I think there were probably a couple instances
where we were ready to cave onsomething.

Do you remember what one?

of those was Well the antibiotics.
Initially, I was getting ready.

Right, no, not program.

The antibiotics, oh, the antibiotics yeah.

Because they so yeah.

The GBS stuff.

Going back to the GBS antibiotics so they started
offering alternatives to theywere trying to negotiate.
They were trying to negotiate.
So it was negotiate, so it waslike, okay, well, what if we
just did two doses of penicillininstead of continuous drip
during your entire labor?
So then baby's not getting asmuch antibiotic, but, you know,
maybe enough to treat it.
And so I'm still just laughingabout that because it's like,

(01:09:47):
well, if two doses is enough totreat it and not worry about it,
why are you giving everybodycontinuous drip antibiotics?

but like it's just like okay this is why I love
you, because you can actuallylike spin it into.
Well, why are we even doingthat to begin with?

yeah, and it's a fun.
It's a fun exercise because alot of these people like don't
have good answers, like theyreally don't.
So, like one of like, I enjoyedhaving conversation with
lippowich, even though wedisagreed on everything.
We should probably bleep outhis name.

No, I want people to know it was Lipowich that
delivered our child.

You should know this, you should know this, all
right, well, anyways, so Ienjoyed having conversation with
him because he did have anactual rebuttal back to you, so
it was actually conversational.
I didn't agree with 95% of whathe said, but you actually could
have like a back and forth withhim.
Versus some of the people thatwe encountered.
It was like I don't know whatto say to you about that, cause

(01:10:41):
you seem to know more about itthan I do.
You know like.
So whenever I would say that,like if you don't have a good
answer as to why you're doingthis, then you're not doing it
to me.
So, yeah, the antibiotic thing,they were offering lesser
dosages, and then they also wereoffering lesser strength
antibiotics, so continuous dripof something a little less

(01:11:01):
stronger than penicillin, and so, as I was like navigating it,
I'm like okay, like then it'sstill offering a little
protection if needed.
Like I was caving, becauseagain I'm in labor and in
heightened emotional state, andthey just keep coming in with
all this fear of sick babiesdying, right, it's like geez,
well, of course I don't wantthat to happen to my kid.

(01:11:23):
Anyways, the other one I wasgoing to mention was the eye
goop that they put on babies.
It's a antibiotic smear thatthey put on baby's eyes.
That again goes back to liketransferring infection through
delivery, and I don't have a lotof good data on this one, other
than just again, this thoughtof like preventative measures.
The second the baby comes outof the womb, like the second the

(01:11:45):
baby comes out of the move,they smear this antibiotic cream
on their eyes, they give them avitamin K shot in their heel
and they're doing all these.
They're wiping all the stuffoff baby immediately.
And I just came back to thisthought of like if, if there is
a reason to treat my baby,please 100% treat them

(01:12:07):
Preventatively.
No, absolutely not.
So that was the other thing wedeclined and that was so.
The two things from the doctorfrom my doctor that he actually
cared about was the rogam andthe zithromycin.
I remember being in thecontraction as well of him being
like you're not going to beable to find a pediatrician who
agrees with this decision, but,um, okay, enhance me the form to

(01:12:28):
sign literally saying you willhave no health care coverage.

Nobody is going to want to see you if you deny
this.

We had the bed raised so I was leaning over to
try and alleviate some of thecontraction pain in my back and
I had my headphones in because Iwas trying to stay focused on
breathing through labor andlistening to my music.
And I had you behind me helpingrub my back.
And I had you behind me likehelping rub my back, and these
fucking healthcare people arestanding on the other side of

(01:12:58):
the bed throwing paperwork at meto sign, telling me what stupid
decisions I'm making.
I'm just like this is insane.

Do you remember when we said that there was a,
that we believe that there was alink from the vitamin K shot
that caused jaundice and thenurse was like I've never?

heard about that?
I've never heard.
Oh yeah, and then she said thatthe reason they're seeing
increase in jaundice is becausethey're doing this delayed cord
clamping and that the baby can'tprocess all that hemoglobin.

Well, that wasn't an issue that clearly wasn't an
issue for us at all.

Yeah, maybe there's some truth there, and
then she says oh, I'm gonna goresearch this.

And then she went back and researched it and then
she came back and said yeah,there's no link to vitamin k.

Yeah, and it's comical again because I don't
know.
You just found it in the insertit's on pfizer's website for
the vitamin k shot.
It's the first page about thefatalities and the severe
reaction, and then the jaundicestuff is on the third page.
Three of five under precaution,under pediatric use.

Okay, literally right there.
All right.
So you have people that aregiving you advice in the
hospital that don't even knowhow to research things that they
are not sure of.
Yeah, and then they come backand confirm their own thought
process before because theydidn't research it correctly.

Well, yeah, and this came up when we were
talking to the doctor the nextday.
You were saying we had thislong conversation with him.
I mean, he straight up told usdo you honestly think doctors
have time to read all of theseinserts?
He straight up told us this heliterally said that I'm like
well, Because if you know.

Talk to any one of your doctor friends.
If you have somebody that youknow that's a doctor, okay,
think of their schedule.
Or even as you go to the doctor, what doctor walks in.
You spend 10 minutes with them.
He goes, walks into anotherroom, literally probably uh per
hour they I don't know what theysee 10 people, oh yeah, I don't
know right.

Who knows there is.
I definitely think that they'reunder pressure to move quickly.
I think the administrativesystem of these health care
that's a whole nother podcastbut is pressuring them to just
go through, go through, gothrough go through.

So when he says he probably doesn't have time to
to read the inserts or toprovide people with informed
consent because he also saidthat he says I don't have time
to provide people with informedconsent- yeah, he's like because
he's.

Oh, I just did a circumcision.
Do you think I should have gonein there and told them that
their baby could die and listoff all the risks?

Yes, I do think that you should say this I said
that.

I said I think people should have informed
consent because we didn't havethat with our first two kids and
are dealing with chronic healthconditions.
Yeah, but I can understand.
He actually didn't have thatwith our first two kids and are
dealing with chronic healthconditions.

Yeah, but I can understand he actually doesn't
have time to do this.
Okay, so then the onus becomeson the parent.
Who is?
The parent is the one that'smaking the decision, and I
actually brought that up to himand I said that and he said
Jason, you're absolutely right,you're absolutely right.
It comes down to the parent todo their own homework.

Yeah.
And that's what we don't teach,and maybe that's what these
doctors need to be saying is youknow, this is what's
recommended from this hospitaland historically I can't say
currently anymore, buthistorically from the FDA.
But I personally haven't lookedat all that information and I
personally haven't read theinsert.
But here's how you can find it,if you want to make your own

(01:16:17):
informed choice, that this iswhere you find the information.

Exactly.
Maybe that's what they need tosay.
That's what they need to startsaying.

I haven't read the side effects of all of these
drugs so I can't advise youappropriately on it.
But yeah, yeah.

Yeah, it was certainly interesting, let's see
.
You know, we ended up decliningall other vaccines as well.
And here's check this out, allright.
So this Maha report that justcame out yesterday, okay, one of
the big headlines that theyhave here is that there's a
growth of childhood vaccineschedule, and this is kind of

(01:16:52):
short, but I think I want toread it to you, all right.
So it says the executive orderestablishing the Maha Commission
directed the study of anypotential contributing causes to
the childhood chronic diseasecrisis, including medical
treatments, and to assess thethreat and that potential
overutilization of medicationposes to children with respect
to chronic inflammation or otherestablished mechanisms of

(01:17:14):
disease, using rigorous andtransparent data, including
international comparisons.
So we get into a few more here.
Vaccines benefit children byprotecting them from infectious
diseases, but, as with anymedicine, vaccines can have side
effects that must be balancedagainst their benefits.
Parents should be fullyinformed of the benefits and

(01:17:36):
risks of vaccines.
Many of them have concernsabout the appropriate use of
vaccines and their possible rolein growing childhood chronic
disease crisis.
Okay, here's three bullets.
So, since 1986, the averagechild by one year of age, by one
year old, the number ofrecommended vaccines on the CDC
childhood schedule has increasedfrom three injections to 29

(01:18:01):
injections, including in uteroexposures from vaccines
administered to the mother.
Of course, parents may chooseto delay to a later age or
forego one or more of thesevaccines.
The number of vaccinations onthe American vaccine schedule
exceeds the number ofvaccinations on many European
schedules, including Denmark,which has nearly half as many as

(01:18:24):
the US.
Yet no trials have compared theadvisability and safety of the
US vaccine schedule as comparedto other nations.
This is kind of interestingbecause we had one nurse that
came in and she was all on boardwith everything our total

(01:18:45):
decisions and she wanted to seeif we were European.

Oh, the first thing she says when she walks
into our room she's like you'renot European.
Or she goes you're not Polish.
It's like Rachel, you're notPolish and you declined all of
these things.
Why, why, what have you beenreading?
She's like Americans, you'renot polish and you declined all
of these things.
Why, why, what have you beenreading?
She's like americans neverdecline this stuff she says no
americans decline this stuff.
Hilarious europeans do polishpeople do yeah, she's like no

(01:19:10):
vitamin k, no circumcision, likewhat?

yeah, she wanted to know what we were reading
yeah, she did.

And then, like she did her initial like
transfer of nurse or whatever.
And then she did come backlater and she's like so I really
want to talk to you.
She's like I, you're, you're,you're not European.
What, how did you get to thisdecision point?
And so we, we had a nice longconversation about it.
But she's like, yeah, good, andshe said you know, 10 years ago

(01:19:37):
when she started that hospital,they were giving antibiotics to
all babies when they were bornpreventatively.
And she was just like why inthe world are we doing this?
She's like I was so gratefulthat they finally stopped doing
that.
But she's like all thosepreventative measures that you
Americans take is just crazy.
And it's just again, it's likea wake-up call of like this is

(01:19:57):
standardized care.
Here and again, westernmedicine has an amazing place in
this world.
Right, like I, I don't want todiminish that.

It's the preventative side that I am
taking issue with and we'rereally good at trauma yeah, and
responding the preventativestuff is like we're we're, I
think we're not good at, we'recausing, I think we are so yeah,
and other countries aren'tdoing this, so just something to
be mindful of, right.
Okay.
So, unlike other pharmaceuticalproducts, vaccines are unique

(01:20:25):
in all 50 states and, for someform of vaccine, mandate for
public school enrollment throughalmost all states, although
almost all states allowexemptions for religious and or
personal reasons.
In contrast, over half ofEuropean countries, including
the UK, do not require childhoodvaccination.
So we have mandates here in theUnited States.

(01:20:46):
There's not mandates that arein other countries.
I don't know if people knowthat, but now I learned that in
this Maha report.

Yeah, and each state is different.
Each state of what they requireis different.

Each state is different.
And so well, rachel and Jason.
You just didn't vaccinate yourchild.
How are you going to send yourkid to school?

Right.

Go on.

We prepare a religious exemption.

Right.

Yeah.

And you don't have to be a crazy religion, right?
What's the the go ahead.
What's the?
What is the piece of this, ofwhy it fits within a christian
religion, even catholic religion?

go ahead well, I you're asking me to speak for an
entire group of people, and I,oh no, what's the what's the
answer?
That for us, yes you know asit's a common answer digging
yeah, as we started digging intoyou know vaccines and how
they're developed and what'scontained in them, similar to
like the blood product thingwith rogam is like you know

(01:21:50):
you're taking.
You know dna derived cells deadfetal cells cells from somebody
else and in a lot of thesevaccine cases it's from an
aborted fetus and not perfectlyhealthy, well-developed aborted

(01:22:11):
fetus, because the cells had tobe healthy and developed in
order to be used.
They're taking perfectlyhealthy, aborted fetal cells to
develop these products and thosecells may be present in the
vaccine that you are injectinginto yourself or into your

(01:22:32):
children.

Whoa, whoa, whoa.
That's not true.
The vaccine that you justinjected into your baby is not.
Doesn't contain dead fetalcells?
Does it't contain dead fetalcells?
Does it aborted fetal cells?

yeah, and this is very controversial this is very
controversial.

The answer, how it all was developed, is and did,
and that's proven from abortedfetal cell yes yeah, for sure,
healthy, perfectly healthy yes

well-developed fetal cell lines and I had kind
of heard that, like before, andjust made this assumption that
like there had been you knowsomething wrong and that's why
it was aborted, and like didn'tfully grasp that, like you know,
the cell lines that were usedwere, like you know, grown and
harvested purposely for thisscientific advancement that we

(01:23:22):
have.
This is a very personal, likeyou know, I don't want to be
like I don't know, preaching toanybody, but for me, like as I
sat there and thought about whatwas happening in order for this
to be developed and then putinto my children, and then
looking at you know this, thedata that that's in here, you

(01:23:45):
know, of all this chronicillness, and it just wasn't the
right fit, I just, I just don'tbelieve that and I I don't
believe anymore that people are,you know that we're born
imperfectly.
I think things happen.
You know there's certainlyextenuating circumstances or
whatever where treatment andmedicine is necessary, but this

(01:24:07):
preventative intervention thatwe're doing across the board
into our perfectly healthychildren, made in God's image,
you know, I just I don't believethat.
So that's where our religiousexemption is stemming from is.
I believe that God created usin his image and that we are
perfect, that our body is atemple, and I believe that we

(01:24:30):
don't need to alter our bodies,we don't need to alter our
immune systems, we don't need tohave this preventative measure
when we're born perfectly in hisimage, and so that's our
exemption.
It's against what we believe,against the faith, so you fill

(01:24:52):
that out and then in Illinois,you do have to have a
physician's signature on theform, which can be challenging
to obtain, but it is possible.
I know dozens of people who dothis, and we're one of them, so
it is possible, yeah.

Yeah, that's all really.
These are good things becauseme, coming into this, I never
thought hard enough that I wouldever qualify for a religious
exemption right.
I never thought hard enoughthat I would ever qualify for a
religious exemption right.

I never thought hard enough yeah, and like I'll,
I'll share, like with our girls, like part of their form
includes all of theirvaccinations.
So I clearly state in ourwrite-up, like what changed for
us and when we found faith andwhy we found faith and what that
means to us and how ournewfound faith is trickling down

(01:25:43):
into the decisions we're makingaround around healthcare.

Yeah.
So, yeah, yeah, yeah, exactlyAll right.
So so, despite the growth ofthe childhood vaccine schedule,
there has been limitedscientific inquiry into the
links between vaccines andchronic disease, the impacts of
vaccine injury, the conflicts ofinterest in the development of
the vaccine schedule.
These areas warrant futureinquiry.

(01:26:08):
So it talks about the clinicaltrials here.
Our understanding of thevaccine safety and any links to
chronic disease would benefitfrom more rigorous clinical
trial designs, including the useof true placebos, larger sample
sizes and longer follow-upperiods.
Many vaccines on the CDC'schildhood schedule involved

(01:26:30):
small participant groups, had noinert placebo-controlled trials
and had limited safetymonitoring, some lasting six
months or less, raising concernsabout the ability to detect
rare or long-term adverseeffects.
This is why we are reviewingthis all again, because the

(01:26:55):
clinical trials that were donein the beginning that we've
based all of theserecommendations on, were
inadequate.

Yeah, a few weeks ago.
According to Maha, yeah, well, Ithink, according to anybody who
thinks critically, what theside effects are positive or
negative of any item or anythingthat you're going to put into
your body To me at least, itmakes the most sense to have a

(01:27:25):
group of people who receivenothing and have a group of
people a placebo saline and agroup of people who receive the
product that you're trying totest.
And it was not a few weeks ago,maybe a month or so ago, that
this came out, and I wasastonished by the spin that the
media was taking on this.
But they're like okay, sure,some of these things were tested
against a placebo that wasactually the adjuvant or was

(01:27:48):
actually the previous version ofthe vaccine.
But because that adjuvant orthat previous version of the
vaccine had also gone through aclinical trial, it was.
It was deemed safe.
And I'm sitting there like okayone.
I can't even believe you guysare actually admitting this now,
because for so long there waszero admittance that that was
even true.
Now they're admitting okay,yeah, it's not actually like a

(01:28:09):
true placebo of saline ornothing.
But if we don't do that, it'sgoing to take way more time and
cost us way more money, andthese vaccine manufacturers are
just not going to producevaccines.
I was like it was astonishingto me the response to that,
because for years they've beensaying that, this art, you know
that, this revelation that theywere not truly tested against

(01:28:32):
nothing which I think anybodywith a critical mind would want
that because it's the only wayyou're going to get a true
understanding of what the effectis of the product.
So for them to just like, belike nonchalantly oh yeah, so
we're not actually doing that.
Sorry, but there's a reason whywe're not doing it and it's
because it takes more time, itcosts more money and you know
people aren't.
The vaccine manufacturersaren't going to produce anything
if we don't do that.

(01:28:52):
Okay, informed consent, hello,like, if you want to do it that
way, that's fine.
But stop going around tellingeverybody that these vaccines
are rigorously tested, becauseto me, testing a vaccine against
another vaccine is notrigorously tested.
That tells me nothing,especially if the adjuvant's the
same right, like if theadjuvant being the thing that

(01:29:16):
creates the immune response,like the aluminum or whatever,
like if you have aluminum inboth of the products that you're
putting into your test groupand your control group and the
results are the same, and thenyou come out with some statement
see, there's no risk becauseeverybody had the same results
of both things.
Okay.
Well, if 5% of people in boththe control group and the test

(01:29:37):
group come down with anautoimmune or an allergy, that's
a problem.
We need to know that, you know.
To me that's not saying, oh,there's no change in the result.
I want to know if people gotnothing, do they still have that
allergy or that autoimmune?
That's the question.

That's the question.

And that's what we don't have answers to.
And so all these people aregetting so upset because of the
way the media is spinning this Ithink are missing what we're
saying here they're rigorouslytested is bullshit.
These vaccines have not beenrigorously tested In the
clinical trial group.
I didn't mention this in thevitamin K.
So if you scroll down and youget into the data, it will tell
you how many people were in theclinical trials, and in that one

(01:30:17):
particularly, it was less than300, less than 300 kids.
So at one particularly, it wasless than 300, less than 300
kids.
So at one point the doctor thatwe were talking to about
vaccines in general not justvitamin K, but about vaccines in
general made the comment ofokay, sure, there's side effects
of one in a million, but lookat all the millions of lives
that it's saving.
And it's like you actually can't.
Even I used to say this too.
I used to say it all the timeOkay, sure, maybe one in a

(01:30:37):
million has a really bad sideeffect, right, you can't even
logically say that, because thepool that they're testing is far
less than a million, oftentimesfar less than 1,000 people in
the clinical trials, and thesethings are popping up.
So you're saying for vitamin K,for example, it's minimally at
least one in this.
You know 300, less than 300group and you know you use that

(01:30:59):
across the board.
Like these are things that arepopping up in fairly small
sample sizes, but anyways, it'sreally frustrating to me because
the mantra is always the sameVaccines are safe and effective,
vaccines are regularly testedand side effects are one in a
million.
Everybody says the samefricking thing.
None of those things are true.

Check, check this out.
So they actually have thinnessAllerg.
They actually have thinness.
Allergies are widespread andautoimmune disorders are rising.
Okay, so today, over one infour American children suffers
from allergies, includingseasonal allergies, eczema and
food allergies.
Eczema and skin allergiesincreased from 7.4% of children

(01:31:35):
under 18 from 1997 to 1999 to12.7% from 2016 to 2018.

Yeah, so from 7% to 12%.

Almost doubled in 20 years.
Okay, between 1997 and 2018,childhood food allergy
prevalence rose 88%.

Yeah, and I don't think there's anybody out there
who's going to challenge thatone, because I hear from people
all the time all these kids haveall these allergies.
Now, where did this come from?
It used to be like maybe onekid had a peanut allergy when we
were growing up.
Now you've got peanut allergies, tree nut allergies, egg
allergies, dairy allergies,gluten allergies, like the list

(01:32:19):
goes on, and our kid has asunflower allergy.
I don't know if you've everheard of anybody having that.
I haven't but we have a kid whohas that.

Celiac disease rates have increased five-fold
in American children since 1980s.
We know somebody with celiacdisease.

We know several people with celiac disease.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Rates of inflammatory bowel disease,
including Crohn's, haveincreased by 25% over the last
decade.

Yeah, and that's not to say that the sole culprit
is the vaccines, right?
This report very clearly says.
There's a lot of layers herethat need to be looked at right,
like the amount of plastic inthe average American's lifestyle
, that pesticides and chemicalsthat are used all throughout the
food, what we're feedingourselves, and then also the

(01:33:05):
pharmaceuticals that we'reputting in, both preventatively
and treatment-wise.
We need to look at all of it.
But the point is we have amassive chronic health crisis in
this country and we need toaddress it.
I mean, one in four is insane.

One in four is insane.

It's insane.

So I also wanted to talk about here is that, this
little section.
Here.
They talk about the VAERSsystem and okay, so there's
complications in vaccine safetysurveillance system.
So vacuum vaccines can have awide range of adverse effects.
Manufacturers are only requiredby federal law to list these
adverse events in their packageinserts if they have a basis to
believe that there is a casualrelationship between the drug

(01:33:46):
and the occurrence of theadverse event.
There are, however, manypossible adverse events for
which there is inadequateevidence to accept or reject a
casual relationship.
So vaccine reactions aresupposed to be evaluated in the
United States through a range offederal agencies.
The Vaccine Adverse EventReporting System, which is known
as VAERS many people have maybeheard of this recently relies

(01:34:08):
on passive reporting byphysicians and others, but
provides incomplete earlywarning observational data.
Many healthcare professionalsdo not report to VAERS because
they are not mandated to do soor they may not connect the
adverse event to the vaccination.
Okay, so there is a specificreporting system, but many

(01:34:28):
physicians don't do it.

Oh yeah, for sure .

Okay, let's see All right.
The Vaccine Safety Data LinkSystem, established in 1990,
works with healthcareorganizations to monitor and
study adverse events usingelectronic health records
covering 15 million people.
However, de-identified data inthe VSD Vaccine Safety Data Link
, paid for by the taxpayers, isnot generally available to

(01:34:54):
scientists outside of the VSDnetwork to conduct analysis or
replicate findings using VSDdata.
Furthermore, the CDC has notedthat the VSD studies are likely
prone to confounders and bias.
It is also geared towardsstudying short-term outcomes and
is not well-suited to studyingassociations between vaccination

(01:35:15):
and longer-term chronic diseaseconditions.
So it's kind of clear that theyhave a hard time analyzing the
data because of theserestrictions or the data that's
available to scientists outsideof this network.
There's conflicts of interest.
So the National ChildhoodVaccine Injury Act of 1986, this

(01:35:37):
is the very important one wasenacted in response to liability
concerns surrounding injurieslinked to the three routine
childhood vaccines in use at thetime.
The law shields vaccinemanufacturers from liability for
vaccine-related injuries,creating a unique regulatory and
legal framework.
This framework createsfinancial disincentives for

(01:36:00):
pharmaceutical companies toidentify safety issues either
pre or post-licensure.
Congress made HHS responsiblefor vaccine safety in the
Mandate for Safer ChildhoodVaccines.
However, hhs has theconflicting duty to promote
vaccines and to defend themagainst claims of injury in the

(01:36:20):
National Vaccine InjuryCompensation Program.
In fact, hhs has faced lawsuitsfor failing to fulfill basic
duties under the mandate forsafer childhood vaccines, such
as its requirement to submitbiannual reports to Congress on
how it made vaccines safer.
So this law of 1986, you can'tsue somebody for an adverse

(01:36:43):
event that happens because ofvaccine.

You can't sue the manufacturer, yeah.

Yeah, you can't sue the manufacturer.
So they make a product it harmsyou.
You cannot sue them.
How does that make any sense?

Well, it certainly created a rapid
production of new vaccines.

And that's why the childhood schedule has exploded
.
It is what it is.
Yeah.

Because they literally have a guaranteed
profit line, because thegovernment is going to add it to
the childhood schedule and theyhave no risk.
They have no risk of being sued.

And there's this last section here this is the
scientific, scientific andmedical freedom.
Open scientific discussion andinquiry has become more
difficult with the expansion ofchildhood vaccine mandates and
public health, combined withefforts to combat vaccine
hesitancy.
Physicians who question ordeviate from the cdc's vaccine
schedule may face professionalrepercussions, including

(01:37:43):
scrutiny from licensing boardsand potential disciplinary
action.
The American MedicalAssociation, for example,
adopted a new policy aimed ataddressing public health
disinformation that called toensure licensing boards have the
authority to take disciplinaryaction against health
professionals for spreadinghealth-related disinformation.
This dynamic discouragespractitioners from conducting or

(01:38:06):
discussing nuanced risk-benefitanalysis that deviate from
official guidelines, even whenthose analysis may be clinically
appropriate.
It also discourages physiciansand scientists from studying
adverse reactions.
This silences criticaldiscussion, discourages
reporting to safety systems andhampers vaccine research and
undermines the open dialogueessential to protecting and

(01:38:29):
improving children's health.
So this is why physicians won'tsay anything.
You have to be brave.
You have to be brave, you haveto be courageous, you have to
know you.
You know that you will bepunished if you go against the
grain and you start sayingthings that you're seeing Right

(01:38:52):
and so oh it's, oh, it's easy,because you're not going to have
think about.
Think about the whole COVIDvaccine and the silencing that
occurred.
There wasn't that manyphysicians that were speaking
out.
Oh yeah, because, and if youthink about like, oh, we can
control them, we can just kickthem off of these platforms

(01:39:13):
Because there's only a handfulof them.
There's only a handful of themRobert Malone, ryan Cole.

Peter.

McCullough right, we can silence these guys,
because these are the ones thatare speaking against what we
want people to say and, you know, let's just control their
platform.
And that's what happened andthank God, thank God, we found
that podcast.
Found that podcast with robertmalone, steve kirsch and brett

(01:39:44):
weinstein yeah, on the darkhorse podcast that talked about,
yeah, june 2021.
In june of 2021, they had apodcast you discovered that
talked about the complicationsthat were happening from the
covid vaccine, and that'sbecause I was getting pressure
from work and a little fromfamily to get vaccinated, but I

(01:40:06):
was pregnant with Layla.

And so I felt hesitant in doing so.
And what just happened thisweek?
They're no longer recommendingthe COVID vaccine for pregnant
people pregnant women, excuse meIn 2025.

But you knew this in 2021.
Mm-hmm 2025, but you knew thisin 2021.
And because they knew it in2021, and that's what has also
been reported, is that now wehave found out that myocarditis
was a thing that was happeningin february of 2021, due to a
recent senate report that wasjust put out by Ron Johnson.

(01:40:40):
They just had this big hearingthe other day where they brought
in Peter McCullough and hetestified and they talked about
how the COVID vaccine did notsave lives, it killed, and you
should go watch this.
There's a three hour.
It's a three hour Senatehearing.

So all right, we've beaten that one a lot.

We've beaten it a lot, yeah, but it ties If you
think about, how did we get here?
Because these are big decisionsMm-hmm.
Yeah, and you have to make themin the moment your child is
born.
And what did this say?

(01:41:25):
There's 27,.
There's 29 injections beforeyear, one that you're going to
inject your child with.
And if you're not confident inyour research and your belief,
you're going to lose, becausewhat you're going up against is

(01:41:47):
a David and Goliath situationhere.
How many times did we getbadgered?

A lot.
Yeah, I think that's why it's atopic that keeps coming up for
us and we were so I meanemotional about it was because
it was.
It was so hard and it wasconstant.
It was hard internally to tryand navigate and make the right
decision and realize like you'rereally kind of on an Island,

(01:42:15):
thinking differently than mostpeople, and pretty much everyone
around you is like what thefuck are you doing?
Why, why aren't you complying?
To then be really like face toface and having to argue and
defend yourself for years, foryears.
Yeah, that's hard.
It's still hard.

It's very hard and I think I told you, you know,
if we weren't as prepared, inwhich you know these, these
nurses and you know, even thedoctor said, you know that they
think that these might be theright decisions for their family
as well, but they can't defendit as much as as like what we
can, because we literally armedourself with knowledge.

We were those people, though.

We were those people, for sure.

We went through a period of questioning what to
do and we find ourselves in theoffice Like we kind of we kind
of were questioning it, but wedidn't, we weren't equipped with
the information to really argueit.
And so when you're put on thespot, you're kind of like well,
I've been kind of thinking likemaybe I'm not going to do this.
Those doctors are ready toattack and tell you about all
the sick and dying children outthere.
If you're not equipped to, tohave a stance on why you don't

(01:43:37):
want to do something, you'remore than likely going to cave
and lose.

We did you absolutely.
Yeah, absolutely will you,absolutely will you.
It's the.
The tactics that they have isperfected.
I feel like they probably havea protocol.

Oh yeah.

They, they probably have a protocol for
somebody that is going to denyany of this.

Yeah, I'm not sitting here saying everybody
should deny all the same thingswe did right, Because there's
layers to your risk and there'sfactors that need to be looked
at Like yes age, health,ethnicity, circumstances during
whatever is happening, rightLike where you live, your
hygiene, you know?
are you taking the baby home toa drug infested area?

(01:44:16):
Like, right, like there's somany things to consider.
So I'm not advocating forpeople to do what we did, I'm
just advocating for informedconsent.
Understand your risk,understand the risk of the
product and then make your owndecision, Right, yeah.

Exactly All right.
Well, this was a greatconversation.

Where do we go from here?
Well, I think we're going tocontinue to follow what comes
from this Maha report and thisapproach, mostly from like, a
sense of like.

(01:45:02):
You know, should we continue tomake these decisions that we're
making right?
Because we're making thesedecisions knowing that the
recommendations are coming froma faulty place of science, but
not necessarily having fullscience to support them as being
the right decision, right?
So it's continuing to followand understand what's coming out
and how it was done, and youknow how we proceed from here.

What's your biggest takeaway?

What's your biggest takeaway?
My biggest takeaway, yeah, youknow, as I reflect on this
experience, like in the hospital, it is so imperative that you
and your partner are on the samepage, and I would even say like

(01:45:44):
we really could have benefitedfrom also having a doula present
to be another layer of defensefor us because, totally, while
we were really good at defendingthose decisions, having to do
so in the moment of being inlabor impacted how my labor and
delivery proceeded.
Right, like it was such adistraction and in hindsight, I
see where having another layerof a person to kind of be your
line of defense of doctors andnurses why the hell are you

(01:46:08):
talking to them about thesedecisions that they've already
voiced their opinion on in aheightened emotional, painful
state?
It's really crazy.

It's kind of like a lawyer.
It's kind of like having lawyerrepresentation or real estate
agent representation in a deal.

Yeah, it's really important to have A heightened
emotional state.
Yeah, I mean, you and I werevery aligned and you even
pointed out to me like Rachel,you're kind of starting to cave,
and I'm like you're right, I'mwearing down.
I'm wearing down from theconversation and I'm distracted

(01:46:44):
from the pain.
I just wanted them to go away.

Right and it's easy for make people go away by
just agreeing.

Yes, and yeah I did.
I did actually have a moment ofthat where I agreed to
something where in hindsight,I'm like why the fuck did I
agree to it?
But it was literally I justwanted him to leave.
And what did he do?
He shook my hand and he saidexcellent decision, we have a
deal, yeah.
It was literally like we have adeal, yeah.
And so what?
That, what?

that was was Pitocin after the baby was born.
So they could give you pitocinafter the baby was born so that
that would help your uterusshrink?
Yeah, my uterus contract, andtry and prevent yeah, prevent
infection.

Yeah, I'm like mad at myself about that one,
but I literally remember lookingat him and I'm like I, I don't
care, the baby's out at thatpoint, I don't care, I literally
just wanted them to go away.
Yeah, and he, he shook my head.
He's like that's excellentchoice, excellent choice,
excellent choice.

It was his victory .
It was his victory lap because,he did get a yes out of us for
one thing.
Yeah, he did, you know.

That's so stupid, but yeah.
So I think my takeaway is justlike be you know aligned, you
know force, and if you can haveanother layer of somebody there
with you, I wonder what ourhospital bill is going to look
like.
I am curious too.
I've been wondering that,because they give you like a, a

(01:48:06):
pre-estimate of things, but thatwould be, you know,
pre-estimate.

And all the things that we didn't take.
Yeah, I don't know, it'll beinteresting if the bill's the
same, we'll compare it to ourlast two children.
Yeah, we'll compare it to ourlast two children.

Yeah, we'll get an itemized line, but it's a
different hospital too, so it'llbe different, sure, but still
the same process.
I'm very curious becausethere's a lot of pharmaceuticals
they did not give us andprocedures that weren't done.
So we'll see.

So it should be a pretty light bill.

Yeah, that was the other thing.
I did look up the markups thatexist on those pharmaceuticals
and it's like 2% to 500% markup.
So every time we're decliningthat, that's a significant
amount of profit that they'relosing.
Yeah, it's a revenue stream forthem.
They're losing yeah, right,they get the charge for that.

They bill it back to the insurance.
You're getting the money fromthe insurance.
Every baby that's born, weshould be able to get x amount
of dollars from insurance.
So predictable.
Nobody wants their predictableincome stream to go away and if
you have vaccine hesitancy,that's happening, which is
warranted, because I'm not goingto blame any.

(01:49:14):
Look, if you still want to doall the vaccines that's
recommended, by all means go forit.
I don't.
That doesn't bother me, likeyou know yeah, people can make
their own choices.
Yeah, people make their ownchoices.
You know, or do all.
If you want to look at all theresearch, if this like dude, I
don't even have the headspacefor this okay, then then go with
the recommendations and that'stotally fine, because this does

(01:49:35):
take homework.
This takes a lot of homeworkand not everybody has the time
or the passion.
I think there is a, there's acertain amount of passion and I
think the passion kind of comesfrom it, from specific
experiences that have happenedto you directly.
That's where passion comes fromis specific experiences that
have happened to you directlythat have impacted your life or

(01:49:56):
somebody close to you that makesyou want to go down a rabbit
hole.
Yeah, that have impacted yourlife or somebody close to you
that makes you want to go down arabbit hole.
Yeah, and we had that with ourfirstborn child, who now has
been confirmed to have anallergic reaction to eggs and
sunflower, in which we have hada number of scary situations
where her allergy reactions haveswelled right and that makes us

(01:50:23):
extremely nervous and wecertainly want to try to avoid.
How do we avoid autoimmunediseases?
I don't know, but it's clearlybeing looked at and hopefully
Robert Kennedy is able toprovide the American people with
some answers of where all thisstuff is coming from, so that

(01:50:44):
parents can actually make verygood decisions instead of
guessing or analyzing the risklevels.
All right, so that's reallywhat we want.
So my biggest takeaway fromthis conversation?
I think just having theconversation is the takeaway.

(01:51:07):
This is what this podcast is allabout.
It's dinner table conversations.
It is real life investing into.
I mean, we talk about realestate, we talk about, you know,
health.
We talk about working out, wetalk about discipline and
mindset and motivation, and wealso talk about how to be a

(01:51:31):
parent and how to make reallyhard choices.
And to me, this is we don't haveenough of these conversations.
A lot of them are taboo.
They're closed-minded.
You can't talk to everybodyabout this stuff because they're

(01:51:54):
set in their ways, but maybethe more frequency that we talk
about it or, you know, you getit onto a public space here
where people can listen.
In all of a sudden, people canconnect with that and I'll even
share.
You know, I've I've posted afew things on my Instagram story
, again with through X.

(01:52:15):
You know just about ourexperience, and I've had a few
people reach out to me and saiddude, thank you, thank you for
sharing this.
I'm due with my baby in fiveweeks.
Like this is the stuff we'retalking about, and thank God
that you're saying this stuff sothat, like we, it helps us know
that we're not the only peoplegoing through this scenario or

(01:52:36):
these types of conversations,and so I think the biggest
takeaway for me is just having aconversation.
So, all right, what a 69thepisode.
That was Okay, all right.
Well, thank you for everyonethat tuned in and made it this

(01:52:57):
far, and if you found any value,please share it.
I'm certain that there are manypeople in your circle that are
wondering, you know, what theyshould do, how to look at things
, how to analyze things.
Here's how we did it.
Nobody says it's the right way.
Nobody.
We don't say this is the rightway to do it.
There's a thousand ways to skina cat.
This is just one way.

(01:53:19):
So you know, hopefully thishelps you.
Please share the episode and wewill see you on the next one.

All Episodes

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

On Purpose with Jay Shetty

Dateline NBC

Cold Case Files: Miami

.css-15opob5{left:0;position:absolute;top:0.8rem;} All Episodes

.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}69. Standing Your Ground: Why We Declined Standard Newborn Hospital Protocols

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

.css-r6mb8g{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:1;overflow:hidden;}On Purpose with Jay Shetty

Dateline NBC

Cold Case Files: Miami

All Episodes

69. Standing Your Ground: Why We Declined Standard Newborn Hospital Protocols

On Purpose with Jay Shetty