411: Unlock Your Potential Through Gut Health with Dr. Nikki DiNezza: How Tending to Your Gut Can Fuel Your Energy, Recovery, and Resilience

Episode Transcript
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Angie (00:00):
Today we're diving into a topic that affects so many

(00:02):
runners on and off the run, yetoften gets overlooked until it's
causing major issues.
We're talking about gut health,and trust me, this is not just
about mid run bathroomemergencies.
Today I'm joined by theincredible Dr.
Nikki Deza, a gut health expertand nutritional therapy
practitioner who helps peopleheal from chronic bloating IBS

(00:23):
and sibo.
Without having to eliminateevery food under the sun.
She's also the founder of theFODMAP Freedom Program and fun
fact, a talented painter whoseartwork now decorates her office
walls thanks to a pandemic eracreative spark.
In this episode, we talk aboutthe real connection between your
gut.
Your nervous system, yourrunning performance, and your

(00:44):
overall health.
You'll learn why so many runnersstruggle with GI issues, how to
actually feed your gutmicrobiome because it's not just
about probiotics and how stress,sleep, and even sunlight impact
your digestion.
Whether you've been chasing foodsensitivities for years or just
want to run stronger and feelbetter, this conversation is

(01:05):
packed with insights and plentyof laughs you won't wanna miss.
So let's dive in.

(01:33):
All right.
Welcome to the show today.
I am so excited to welcome Dr.
Nikki Deza to the podcast.
What's up, Nikki?
Hi, what's up Angie?
Good to be here.
Thank you so much for joiningus.
Nikki is a gut health expert andI'm so excited to talk all
things gut with you.
But for our listeners that dunnoyou yet, tell us a little bit
about who you are, what you do,and who do you help.

Nikki (01:54):
Oh my goodness.
Yeah, so I primarily help peoplewith tummy problems, if that
wasn't abundantly clear.
Most of the people I work withhave gone down the rabbit hole
of going to three GI doctors,five naturopaths.
They've tried all the things anda lot of these people have
received the diagnosis ofirritable bowel syndrome or sibo
or candida, leaky gut, one ofthe more integrative, sexy

(02:16):
diagnoses.
At the end of the day, thesepeople are struggling with
bloating, indigestion, poopingproblems of every shape, size,
color, and form you can imagine,whether it be constipation or
diarrhea, and they just don'tfeel good.
And that's where I come in andoftentimes help them diversify
their diet, which is a reallybig problem in this community.
People hack out foods left andright.

(02:38):
And they're looking for thetrigger food or the culprit
food, and now they've whittledtheir diet down to nothing.
And I'm the person who gets thefun job of helping them
reintroduce all of the thingsthat are painted behind me.
So that's a little bit aboutwhat I do.

Angie (02:51):
Yeah.
So for all of you that arelistening to this podcast,
instead of watching, she's got agorgeous background filled with
all sorts of paintings of fruitsand veggies and all sorts of fun
stuff.
So who painted all of those, didyou, I.
Paint.
Yeah, I did.
Really?
Oh, that's so fun.
Yeah.
That's so fun.
So

Nikki (03:06):
funny enough, the very short version of a long story is
that this was a covid lockdownhobby.
Okay.
Turned into decorating theoffice.
I had the realization maybeabout two months into the
lockdown that I was much morestressed than I was consciously
aware of.
I thought the whole couple ofmonths in the beginning, I was
like, man, I'm crushing it.
I know the world is ending,obviously, but I'm hanging in

(03:28):
there.
It's fine.
I'm not anxious, I'm notdepressed.
I'm doing fine.
But my body screamed at me andsaid, girl.
Now we need to talk.
And I was losing copious amountsof hair.
Just
handfuls of hair.
And I did the kind of clichefunctional medicine thing, and I
got a bunch of testing done.
I checked my hormones, I checkedmy thyroid, I checked my iron.
Everything looked fine.

(03:49):
Everything on paper was squeakyclean.
And I finally just had toswallow the difficult pill of
realizing it was quote unquoteall in my head.
And I was more stressed than Irealized.
And so I picked up acrylicpainting during the pandemic.
Cool.
And did it help?
It did.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Fortunately, unfortunately, likeit's laughable.

(04:10):
'cause again, like it's hard toadmit that to yourself when
you're in the throes of notfeeling good or having a symptom
like that, but it really didhelp.
That's great.
And now I have a beautifulbackdrop for when I do podcasts.
You do.
And YouTube videos, so it's allright.

Angie (04:21):
I

Nikki (04:21):
love

Angie (04:21):
it.
So let's jump into kind of ourtopic at hand here is like, why
are we talking about gut healthon a running podcast?
And my very quick and easyanswer is, lots of runners have
gut issues and not just on therun, but also just in our daily
lives.
And it's very important.
Gut health is extremelyimportant for us, as we absorb
nutrients and all sorts ofstuff.

(04:42):
But, runners specifically havesome very interesting gut
issues, which I'm not sure howfamiliar you are with like, our
running specific stuff withpeople having.
Some very interesting GI stuffon the runs, which can be very

Nikki (04:55):
diarrhea.
Namely mid run.

Angie (04:57):
Yes.
Like the runner trots, I thinkis one of the things that they,
someone calls them.
But let's talk about gut healthspecifically.
Let's start in general, like whyis gut health so important for
us as humans?
Yeah.
And then we'll kinda narrow itdown.

Nikki (05:11):
Yeah.
Start broad with humans and thennarrow it down to runners
specifically.
Yeah.
And I think you hit the nail ofthe head.
Gut health.
Gut health is having a momentright now.
You know how cauliflower has hada moment Yes.
For the last decade or so andlike they're making everything
outta cauliflower now.
Yeah.
I feel like gut health issimilarly having a moment right
now.
That's good.

(05:31):
It is good to a degree, likemaybe we'll talk about that at
some point, but we're havingthis like renaissance of
understanding of, whoa.
The gut is connected toliterally everything in the
whole body.
Yeah.
Either indirectly by way of ournutrition, right?
Like here you are eating all ofthese good proteins and carbs
and vitamins and minerals andyou are eating those with the

(05:54):
assumption, with the hope thatyou will absorb them and that
you could build muscle and buildhealthy tissues from those
nutrients.
But if you are mal absorbing ormaldi digesting that food.
The stuff you're putting in yourmouth isn't making it to your
muscles.
So there's that sort of thatlink with it.
But also inflammation.
Like even I'm thinking of thingslike delayed onset muscle

(06:14):
soreness or your ability torecover from a workout.
That's gonna be largelyinfluenced by how inflamed you
are.
And a lot of inflammation iscooked up in the gut.
Either directly from the foodswe eat or because 70% of our
immune system hangs out in andaround the gut.
And if those immune cells getticked off, then you're off to
the races with an inflammatoryimmune response.

(06:35):
And that can impact all areas ofthe body, including the muscles,
but also, brain, skin, thyroid,lungs, heart, you name it.
Yeah.
So it's pretty important.
And then, like you said, therunner's trots, yeah.
The gut issues themselves.
Certainly if you have bloating,indigestion, diarrhea,
constipation, then you shouldcare about this topic very much.

Angie (06:53):
Yeah, I totally agree.
And it's funny when you saycauliflower is having its
moment.
I remember this meme that cameout that said, honey.
Cauliflower can be pizza, youcan be anything.

Nikki (07:05):
I dunno if you saw that.
I might've seen the same one.
Yeah.

Angie (07:07):
I love it.
I love it.

Nikki (07:08):
Isn't it the truth?

Angie (07:09):
Yeah, it is the truth.
And I love what you say heretoo, because I think that as
more research emerges, we arestarting to see how important
the gut is, but not just thegut, but all of these things in
our body and how everything isconnected and everything goes
back to stress.
And then there's our gut and ournervous system.

(07:30):
All of these things areconnected.
And depending on what corner ofsocial media you like to hang
out in, you'll hear more aboutone thing than the other.
But ultimately, we are one humanbody and the gut is really
important and plays a huge rolein that.
So what do we have to know inorder to have a healthy gut?
If I asked you what are some keythings that I need to do as a

(07:53):
runner or as a just a person tohave a healthy gut?
Gut, what would you say?

Nikki (07:57):
Yeah.
Yeah.
So I'm gonna answer thisquestion, assuming you know
nothing about the gut.
Okay.
Sounds good.
And that way, like anybody who'slistening right now, no matter
what level they're at, thenwe've got'em covered.
Yeah.
So there's the tissue of the gutthat is made up of your cells.
So like the cells that make upthe lining of the stomach.
The cells that make up theaccessory organs like the

(08:17):
pancreas and the liver and thegallbladder, the cells of the
colon.
But there are also a lot ofbacteria and yeast and even
parasites and viruses that livein the gut, and that's their
permanent home.
And we collectively call themthe microbiome Now.
The thing that we have the mostresearch on, and the thing that
is the most well established outof those different kind of

(08:41):
critters I rattled off is themicrobiome that is the bacteria.
But know that there are yeastsand parasites and viruses and
other things like ArcHa thatlive in there.
We're gonna assume we're talkingmostly about bacteria just'cause
that's where more of theresearch is at.
Okay.
But when we feed those gut bacteria, they make cool
beneficial compounds for us sothey can make things that lower

(09:01):
inflammation and educate ourimmune system and help with
absorption and heal the gutlining.
AKA that, that idea of leakygut.
Like
The permeability of the gut wall.
You can heal that with stuffthat your microbes make for you.
But they only ever make thosegood beneficial compounds for
you if you feed them.
So you have to be a goodshepherd to your microbiome.

(09:23):
And that's where a lot of us ashuman hosts are failing at that
job.
Okay.
Dietary fiber is the biggiehere.
We need to get, again, all thestuff painted behind me.
We need to get squash and applesand cherries and guacamole and
onion and garlic, and all ofthese primarily plant foods.
And fiber foods and feed ourmicrobiome that way.

(09:45):
And unfortunately, oh, I wasjust gonna say about 95% of the
American public does not getenough dietary fiber.
Wow.
So that means 95% of people arenot feeding their microbiome and
being good shepherds to theirmicrobiome like we maybe should.
And then we wonder why everybodyfeels like crap.
We all have brain fog, fatigue,aches and pains, chronic

(10:06):
diseases, diabetes,hypothyroidism, whatever it
might be.
It's, I, it's probably notcoincidental.
And a lot of times it isconnected to the gut.

Angie (10:13):
Yeah.
I definitely agree.
I think that, when we think ofbacteria, oftentimes we think
bacteria are bad, right?
Like bacteria is a bad thing.
And so I love that you point outlike, these are good bacteria
that we really need and we haveto feed the bacteria because
we've heard about.
Probiotics, but I think thatless people are.

(10:34):
So probiotics are actually thebacteria themselves, right?
Yes.
Like when you take a probioticsupplement, you are putting
bacteria into your gut, but notas many people are familiar with
prebiotics co.
So can you speak a little bitmore to prebiotics?

Nikki (10:48):
Yeah.
And I'll mention really quickI'm not anti probiotics.
Like I have an empty bottleright here on my desk.
Yeah.
However, the thing aboutprobiotics that a lot of people
don't understand is that theyare pooped out after you stop
taking them.
So you can exert a beneficialyet largely temporary change on
your microbiome.
Yeah.
By taking a probiotic capsule oreating something like yogurt,

(11:11):
kimchi, kombucha, keefer,sauerkraut.
That's gonna be largelytemporary.
So you can take it and it,again, it could be beneficial,
it could absolutely help.
But if you stop taking thatprobiotic, you're gonna poop out
all of that probiotic in amatter of 10 days.

Angie (11:27):
Okay.

Nikki (11:27):
And the majority of it is gone within two or three days
for that matter.
Okay.
But

Angie (11:31):
so quick question about that before we jump into
prebiotics with my question.
A lot of people think that theyshould be taking this probiotic
supplement.
So basically what I'm hearingyou say is that your body then
becomes dependent on it, be forit, and as soon as you stop
taking it, then you, your bodygets rid of those things.
I've also, is that correct,

Nikki (11:50):
ish?
Can I elaborate a little bit?
Yes, absolutely.
I may be oversimplifiedslightly.
What I will say is if you judgethe efficacy of a probiotic by
the presence of that probioticin the colon or the stool
sample, so if I takelactobacillus acidophilus And I
take a strain that I couldtrack, and then I do stool
testing to measure what iscoming out in the stool sample.

(12:13):
If you judge the success.
Or failure of that probiotic bythe presence of the bacteria.
We're gonna poop it out withindays of stopping that probiotic.
However, I will say this, byintroducing a new player into
the ecosystem, we can manipulatethe other good and bad, add
medium bacteria and yeast andwhatever else in that ecosystem.

(12:36):
That some of those changes canbe longer lasting than the
presence of the probiotic strainitself.
Okay.
So that's the weird middleground with probiotics is that
if you look at a stool sampleand you say, I don't have any
lactobacillus, therefore I'mgonna take a pill with
lactobacillus.
You only get that as a transienteffect.
But if, if we had somebody witha candida overgrowth, a yeast

(12:59):
overgrowth and we did probioticsas part of the treatment plan to
get rid of the candida, thenassuming that we address the
root cause of the candida and weget, the nutrition, the
antibiotic use, the whatever.
Those probiotics could help withthe treatment.
And then when we take away theherbs or the probiotics, that
person should be able to resumenormal life without having a

(13:20):
candida overgrowth because itwas treated effectively with the
help of the probiotics.
Okay.
It's complicated.
That's a recurring theme forthis whole episode is it's
complicated.
'cause we've only really beenstudying the gut microbiome in,
in any sort of.
Bigger capacity for the last 20or 30 years.
And it, the field is just in itsinfancy compared to some of the
other fields and things thatwe've been studying.

(13:42):
Yeah.

Angie (13:42):
Absolutely.
And there's always nuanceobviously with any, in any
field.
But one of the things I haveheard about probiotics is that
there are people that don'trecommend taking probiotics
because they can lead to anovergrowth of certain bacteria.
Ah, and we're supposed to havethese millions of bacteria that
naturally occur in our gut.
And if you're taking aprobiotic, a lot of the good

(14:03):
ones only have what, 20, 25 likeat most.
But most probiotic supplementshave a lot less than that, have
just a few strains and it canlead to a, an overgrowth of
those.
And then not as much diversityin the gut.

Nikki (14:16):
What's, I don't think I agree with that.
Okay.
I think.
Going back to the main questionprobably is the idea of should
everybody be taking a probioticand should we like click on that
Instagram ad?
I don't, right?
'cause that's what it's, yeah.
I don't think everybody needs aprobiotic.
And I think that for thepurposes of maintaining your
health, like if you feel prettygood and your gut is reasonably

(14:38):
healthy, you could get a lot ofmileage running, pun intended by
the way, from things likeyogurt.
kefir kimchi, et cetera.
And you probably don't need togo out and buy yourself a
bottle.
Where the bottled probioticscome in really handy is that we
could be a lot more prescriptivewith them because we do have
some, not a ton, but we havesome human clinical trials

(14:58):
showing this particular strainis beneficial for constipation.
This particular strain ishelpful for c diff.
This particular strain can helpwith candida.
This particular strain can helpwith leaky gut, et cetera, et
cetera.
Okay.
So that's I think, thedifference.
I think that everybody should betrying to get beneficial
bacteria.
Somewhere, and I think we shouldall be trying to feed our
beneficial bacteria with fiberrich plant foods.

(15:20):
It's just, do you need to spendthe extra money on like a
proprietary blend or specificstrains, because you need to
know that it has some efficacyfor the condition or the symptom
you're trying to target.
Or could you just get away withhaving some Greek yogurt as part
of your diet every day?

Angie (15:36):
Yeah.
Yeah.
And I think that's true.
Like a lot of people could getaway with yogurt and some of
these fermented foods thatyou're mentioning.
Yeah.
And the other thing isprobiotics can be pretty
expensive now as we liquid,liquid expensive.
Yeah.
As we wrap up like thisprobiotic conversation there's
the ones that I've seen that arelike in the refrigerated section

(15:57):
and then there are capsule formsthat don't need to be
refrigerated.
And again, someone once told methat the refrigerated forms are
better because the ones that arein capsular forms.
Are already dead.
And so they're not actuallyeffective.
No, not true.
Okay.

Nikki (16:12):
And actually that, that brings up an interesting, I'm
aware of one study where theydid this.
So the question of does aprobiotic need to be alive to be
effective?
Is something that we have toabate.
We all have the assumption,understandably so that the
probiotic needs to be alive inorder to exert a benefit to the
host.
That might not be true.
Interesting.
There was at least one study, Ibelieve out of Japan, where they

(16:35):
intentionally killed theprobiotic with heat.
Before administering it.
And it still worked regardlessif it was dead or alive.
Huh.
And you could apply that same argument to people who say.
A, again, another one that'shaving a moment right now is
spore forming probiotics orsoil-based probiotics.
And what proponents of thatworld will say is that only the

(16:57):
spore forming soil-basedprobiotics will survive the
stomach acid and not the, andlactobacillus and
bifidobacteria, these othertypes of probiotics do not,
okay.
Therefore, it's spore formersare bust.
This is the only way we shoulddo probiotics now.
And it's first of all, thatstands in direct.
Conflict with the hundreds, ifnot thousands of human clinical

(17:18):
trials demonstrating thatlactobacillus and
bifidobacterium are wildlyeffective and beneficial for the
human host.
Okay.
But also, does it actuallymatter if the bifido or the
lactobacillus in your probioticor your yogurt dies before it
gets to the intestines?
At least with that oneparticular study, the answer
might not be as solid of a yesas people wanna say.

(17:40):
Just take your probiotics.
I think we overcomplicate it.

Angie (17:42):
Yeah.
Don't we all like weovercomplicate so much nowadays.

Nikki (17:47):
Humans.

Angie (17:48):
Yeah.

Nikki (17:48):
It's part of the human condition.
We just, I know we love to makethings complicated.
It's true.
But but if I could circle thisback around.
So we talked about probiotics,right?
And those are.
The bacteria that we consume.
Hoping that they will confersome sort of a benefit to our
bodies.
Then prebiotics, as youmentioned before, is a prebiotic
is something that feeds yourresident good bacteria.

(18:11):
A lot of these are gonna befibers, so things like high
FODMAP foods have a lot ofinulin and oligosaccharides and
longer chain starches that wecan't digest.
And therefore they make it downto the colon and they're saved
as a little snack for the gutbacteria.
Okay.
Which is nice.
It's kinda like they get ourleftovers.
But there are other things likepolyphenols, which is a class of

(18:32):
flavonoids found in plant foods,and those also feed beneficial
gut bacteria.
So these would be things likeberries, tea, coffee, dark
chocolate capers, olives, like alot of these antioxidant rich
foods have polyphenols and thosealso exert a prebiotic effect.
Even exercise has a prebioticeffect to some degree.

(18:55):
It's maybe not gonna be the sameas eating a peach, but exercise
has been shown to diversify andstrengthen our gut microbiome.

Angie (19:02):
Okay.
Excellent.
We have to eat more fiber.
This is one of the statementsthat you mentioned before, like
95% of Americans, or you said,or was it humans?
Americans.
Yeah.
Americans.
Okay.
95% of Americans are deficientin fiber.
So how do we go about gettingmore fiber into our diet?

Nikki (19:21):
Yeah.
And I'll throw out another statfrom that same study.
So 5% of people get enoughdietary fiber.
I am proud to be in the 5% clubfor the record.
Nice.
You would hope, given what I do,right?
Yeah.
33% of Americans believe that they are getting enough
dietary fiber.
But in fact are not.
So as the kids would say,nowadays, 33% of people are d

(19:44):
Lulu and they're not gettingfiber.
Yeah.
Even though they've convincedthemselves that they are, and
that the remaining, I don't evenknow, I didn't calculate this
very well.
Six, what is it, 62% or whateverthe remaining group of people
are like, you know what?
Screw it.
I know.
I'm not getting fiber, whatever.
I'm just gonna be honest withmyself.
Yeah.
So I think the first step inthis journey is just to put your

(20:06):
money where your mouth is andactually track it a little bit
and just see, find out are youin the 5% club or are you not?
Very good odds that you're not.
Yeah.
But the first thing is justhaving a come to Jesus moment
with yourself and Yeah.
Assessing if you are gettingenough fiber.
Then from there you could try toincrease, but I'll put in a plug
and I don't know how much yourecommend nutrition tracking as

(20:28):
part of what you do.
But I think anybody who's tryingto strive for better athletic
performance.
Probably is familiar with thisidea, but there are free apps
out the wazoo now.
You've got MyFitnessPal.
I love Chronometer personally.
There's probably other ones thatI'm neglecting, but we have so
many free or really cheapsmartphone apps where you can

(20:48):
literally scan a barcode.
If you eat a processed food thathas a barcode, it's so easy.
Just get yourself a$12 kitchenscale and a free chronometer app
and you're off to the races andyou can track for three, four
days.
And just see if you're gettingenough fiber.
So that's, I think the first.
Step for people.
Yeah.
Then if you do find that you'recoming up short as again, the

(21:10):
majority of Americans are thenreally fruits and vegetables are
gonna be the biggest thing foryou to focus on.
But I will also say that beansand lentils and legumes are
gonna be good sources of fiber.
Also, you just, you don't wannago from eating zero fiber to
eating like five servings ofblack beans a day and think
that.
That's the answer, right?
Beads are gonna be gassy.

(21:32):
And they ca they're very highFODMAPs, so they can be a little
bit much for your tummy to getused to.
So you might wanna introduce theultra high fiber foods like
beans and lentils a little bitmore slowly.
Okay.
And don't go, totally ape itright in the beginning.
Again, like a peach or anectarine or some butternut
squash or apples or whatever,fruit or vegetable.

(21:52):
I think that would be a reallygood emphasis for most people.

Angie (21:55):
Yeah.
It's going to be a great ideaanyway, to just get more
natural, fresh.
Foods into our diet as well.
Yes.
Like just for our overallhealth.
So yeah.
Yes, they are good for our gutand they also have so many other
nutrients and vitamins andminerals that are going to help
with inflammation and all theother things as well.

Nikki (22:13):
Bingo.
And that actually seguesbeautifully into something I
wanted to bring up and that isthe idea of eating a diverse
diet.
And not just overly relying onone or a few food sources.
Yeah.
Now, again, this is something Isee a lot with people who have
IBS or SIBO or Candida becausethey've been told that they need
to do a really restrictiveelimination diet, or maybe they

(22:35):
got bogus food sensitivitytesting done with their
naturopath.
And they were put out a reallyrestrictive diet from there,
but.
The first name of the game andthe easiest thing to work on is
just making sure that you getthe quantity of fiber necessary.
Okay.
So for women, for example,that's 25 grams of fiber per
day.
For men, I think it's 38 gramsof fiber per day, if I'm

(22:56):
remembering correctly.
Okay.
So they need more fiber than wedo.
Once you get to that point andyou get in a rhythm and you have
an understanding of how to getthat quantity number.
The next step is to focus ondiversifying your fiber sources.
Okay.
And I'm gonna throw my uncleunder the bus.
I always talk about the poorman.
I told him, I'm like Uncle Paul,you're famous.
I talk about you all the time,but I'm not even joking.

(23:19):
My uncle Paul, is one of theworst eaters I've ever seen.
He will eat pizza, pasta,instant mashed potatoes.
Maybe a hot dog, I don't know.
But the only vegetable the manwill willingly eat.
Carrots.
Okay.
Nothing else.
Broccoli has never touched hislips.
Zucchini is a foreign word tohim.
You might as well be speakingChinese if you say the word

(23:40):
zucchini.
Yeah.
I'm greatly concerned for him and his microbiome health
and his metabolic health.
So it's a running gag in thefamily now that we're always
trying to sneak vegetables intohis diet.
So for example, years ago so Ihave three uncles that live
locally and everybody goes overto my mom's house for
Thanksgiving every year.
It was the first year we livedin North Carolina and we were
over at my mom's house and weall decided to trick Uncle Paul

(24:02):
and we got carrots and parsnipsto chop up and like roast in the
oven and that was gonna be thecarrot dish.
So I, being a liar, I made a bigdeal of it and I was like, look,
uncle Paul, I got carrots andwhite carrots for you.
So it's gonna be a specialcarrot dish this time.
And I kid you not my uncleTimmy, who I love to pieces, but
he is such a nudge.

(24:22):
My uncle Timmy from the otherroom goes, aren't those pars
snips?
They look like pars snips to me.
Those are pars snips.
I was like, shut up Uncle Timmy.
You're ruining it, dude.
Damn it uncle.
The jig is up.
My uncle Paul knows, but we gethim to eat the parsnips once a
year on Thanksgiving.
And that's something that I willtreasure.
But my point is, even if myuncle Paul eats 38 grams of

(24:45):
fiber from carrots per day, he'sonly gonna feed the bacteria
that really love carrots.
Poor, the poor gut bugs thathe's carrying around.
In theory, if they're not deadby now, but the bugs that he's
carrying around that wouldprefer an apple or a rupe or a
grapefruit.
They're either starving andemaciated or they're dead and

(25:08):
long gone.
I don't know at this point.
But if you can get.
The right quantity of fiber andyou could get it from a wide
variety.
So you're getting a little bitof your fiber from avocado, a
little bit from onion, a littlebit from peaches, a little bit
from mushrooms, a little bitfrom strawberries, a little bit
from carrots, a little bit fromwhatever that is going to not

(25:29):
only diversify the nutritionthat you as a human being
receive, right?
'cause you could get somevitamin C from the strawberries,
some, zinc from the whatever.
You can get many differentnutrients for your body to
benefit from, but you also getdifferent types of fiber and
polyphenols and plant compoundsthat different microbes are
gonna benefit from.
And now you're growing a diversetropical rainforest of bacteria

(25:53):
in your gut, and they could makea diverse array of beneficial
compounds for you.
Quantity first.
Then variety is how you feel.
Quantity

Angie (26:01):
and then variety.
Okay.
So what would you say to someonethat has issues with certain
foods?
Because I know you mentionedFODMAPs before, and so can you
define that term for us?
Because I know that I've heardthat term of the FODMAPs and
people go on a FODMAP diet andthere's certain people can't eat
certain foods because itirritates them.
Yeah.
Can you speak a little bit andeducate us there?

Nikki (26:23):
Yeah.
Yeah.
So FODMAP is an acronym.
It's, it stands for Fermentable,oligosaccharides.
Monosaccharides or I'm sorry,fermentable, oligosaccharides.
Disaccharides.
Monosaccharides and Polyols.
Okay.
And it's basically thesedifferent types of indigestible
carbohydrates that haveprebiotic qualities and feed the

(26:43):
gut microbiome.
But they can be a bit irritatingfor sensitive tummies and people
with IBS or SIBO who have a lotof what's called visceral
hypersensitivity.
Okay.
Basically what happens is theseprebiotic fibers act as an
osmotic laxative, and they drawwater into the bowel.
Okay.
And that's normal.
That's not a bad thing.

(27:03):
And again, they're notdigestible by our enzymes and
our machinery.
So sometimes you'll hear thatthese are poorly digestible or
malabsorbed and that's, yeah.
That's the definition of a funmouth.
That's the point.
But people say that like it's abad thing and it's no, but
that's just what it is.
That's fiber for you, but.
They draw water into the boweland that can create distension
and pressure and that couldcause cramping.

(27:25):
So you get this vicious cyclewith people who have visceral
hypersensitivity where they eata high five map food.
It draws water into the bowel,it puts pressure, outward
pressure on the hose that is ourintestines.
Now the muscles and the nerveendings that surround the
intestines feel that pressureand they go, oh my God.
And they clamp down.

(27:47):
And now that pressure and painis 10 times worse because now
you have the same amount ofpressure, or I'm sorry, you have
the same amount of contents inthe intestines.
But now the muscles are clampingdown.
So now it's 10 times worse, andnow you could get bowel habit
changes, you can getconstipation, diarrhea,
cramping, abdominal pain.
Sensitivity like bloating.

(28:08):
And these are all the symptomsthat we see with IBS sibo.
Okay.
To a certain degree, it'sunderstandable that a lot of
people go on a mission toeliminate the trigger foods.
If you observe with yourselfenough times, oh, every time I
eat wheat, I get cramping,bloating, pain, and diarrhea.
That it makes logical sense tocut that out.
But what ends up happening a lotof times is that people go too

(28:31):
far down the rabbit hole andthey restrict more and more
until they're left with 20 foodsin their diet.
And now if they even look at apiece of onion, they blow up and
are in pain.
So it's this sticky situation.
What I would prefer to do, andwhat I do in my work is I am.
I'm hashtag blessed to never bethe person to tell people to

(28:53):
restrict, at least at this pointin my career, I'm not the person
who tells you to restrict more.
I'm the person who helps youheal your gut, heal your
microbiome, enhance yourdigestive capacity to a point
where you can now tolerate thosesame high FOD map previously
triggery foods.

Angie (29:09):
Okay.
And that

Nikki (29:09):
you could have your cake and eat it too.

Angie (29:11):
Okay.
So that makes me then ask andwonder about the whole idea of
elimination diets in general.
And I know that you and I hadsome brief conversations on
Instagram about, functionalmedicine and testing and
elimination diets, and I thinkthat there's a lot of people out
there that believe that atesting is necessary, and B,

(29:34):
they need to start eliminatingall of these things.
I, I know I have a good friendthat went on a, an elimination
diet relatively recently, and.
The things that she was, thatwas on, she did one of those
tests.
I don't know which one.
Yeah.
And then she got this list offoods that she's allowed to eat
and then she's not allowed toeat anything else besides that.
And she had to eat this veryrestrictive diet for a couple of

(29:57):
weeks, I think.
And then she could graduallystart reintroducing things.
But you're saying No, I don'ttell people to eliminate, is
generally not Okay.
So can you walk us through thiswhole thing?
And

Nikki (30:09):
what I will say too is that part of it might be the
people that I attract and thepoint and the journey that
they're on by the time they findme.
Okay.
So there probably are some, likeI'm picturing a more standard
American diet eater kind ofsituation.
Sure.
As they're coasting throughlife, drinking coffee in the
morning on an empty stomach.

(30:31):
And
then they go to Panera for lunch and then they have,
pizza and maybe a handful ofbaby carrots for dinner and then
the cycle repeats.
There is some merit toeliminating foods for a period
of time and it doing that kindof experimentation.
And I'm one of those I figuredout that my body doesn't
appreciate gluten.
I'm pretty sure I have a celiac.
I never got the endoscopy totest it, but I actually did a

(30:52):
food sensitivity test years agothat included the celiac
antibody on it.
And
not only was it lit up like a Christmas tree Ooh girl,
you don't do well with gluten.
But I had the celiac antibodieson that test, so that was good
enough for me.
And I never would've donesomething like that, like had it
not been for functional medicinetesting and had it not been for
playing with elimination dietsfor a little while at that

(31:14):
point.
Yeah.
So it's not that it's all bad,it's just, it's like any other
tool.
It's like you could use a toolappropriately or you can overuse
and abuse it.
Yeah.
And
where I see things go wrong, I think is that I.
Again, oftentimes it's gonna belike a naturopath or an
integrative doc or a functionaldoctor.

(31:35):
And they get somebody in theirdoor and they, the first thing
they do is roll out with thefood sensitivity test.
It's a brand new patient.
You barely had them do like ahalf-assed food diary out a back
of a napkin for you.
Yeah.
You don't, you haven't looked attheir vitamins, their minerals,
their macros, their totalcalories.
You don't even know what's goingon.
And they are then told, okay,here's a food list of bad, no,

(31:58):
no red foods that you couldnever ever eat.
And here's the 30 things thatyou are allowed to eat and now
go forth and try not to developdisordered eating the process of
this.
Yeah.
And meanwhile they probably had a lot of other
lower hanging fruit that theycould have worked on prior to
getting to that point.
Okay.
So I think for me, I don't leadwith food sensitivity testing.

(32:19):
And I haven't in a lot of years,although there was a point in my
career where I did,'cause I, Iwas very enchanted.
By this idea.
Yeah.
I don't lead with it anymore.
I reserve that for when peopleare eating a reasonably balanced
diet and they're getting most oftheir vitamins and minerals and
fiber and protein from food.

(32:40):
They're doing the thingsnutritionally they need to do.
They're working on sleep,they're working on stress.
They don't have crazy bloodsugar issues.
They're moving their body,they're getting, they're getting
a lot of their ducks in a rowand yet they still don't feel
right.
Okay.
And then maybe we have that tool in the very back
pocket, but I'm gonna be honestwith you, using it this way.

(33:01):
I maybe run like one foodsensitivity test every four or
five years now.
Wow.
It's that infrequent that I needto pull this outta my back
pocket.
Wow.
The majority of what's going onwith people can be corrected
with nutrition, sleep, stressmanagement, blood sugar
regulation, making sure you knowyou're moving your body.
These really like unsexy, unfunbasic things.

Angie (33:24):
Yeah.
Yeah.
It's wild.
And that goes back to everythingis connected.
We just wrapped up our firstin-person retreat this past
weekend, which was amazing, andI had a couple ladies come in.
And one of my big things wasmaking sure that I was serving
like delicious health, quoteunquote healthy food.

(33:45):
A diverse all sorts of deliciousthings.
And one person came in and shesaid, she told me she has issues
almost with everything that sheeats.
And then another person wasasking me about what are the
recipes?
She's oh, this recipe, can youshare?
I'm like, don't worry, I'm gonnashare everything at the end.
I'll give you guys a Google doc.
And she was talking to me, she'slike one.

(34:06):
And then the other person waslike, yeah, I usually have
issues and I haven't had anyissues this weekend.
Like all of the food that we'vehad has been delicious and so
amazing.
It has not triggered me.
And there was another personsitting there.
She said, yeah, me too.
And I said I love,

Nikki (34:19):
was it the food or was it your life that was triggering
you?
God?

Angie (34:21):
And that's what I said.
I said, I love that you'reappreciating the food because I
love, it's one of my lovelanguages.
I love cooking for people andpeople enjoying my food.
But don't underestimate thepower of your nervous system and
all of this as well of you'rehere focusing on yourself,
you're disconnected, you'restress free.
Don't, yeah.
Write about that part too.

(34:41):
Yeah.
I think that
so many people don't think about that because we are
just walking around as littlestress balls in our life and
it's no wonder our guts are.
Not happy with us or

Nikki (34:50):
stressed.
Yeah, and I think you lightlytouched on this maybe but the
gut brain axis is thesuperhighway connecting our
brain and our gut.
Yeah.
And I'll tell you, your gutdoesn't do much of anything all
on its own.
It's
getting input from the brain by way of the vagus nerve
and that gut brain axis and thevagus nerve is telling your
stomach to make stomach acid.
It's telling your gallbladder torelease bile.

(35:13):
It's telling the pancreas tomake insulin.
It's telling the intestines tocontract and do motility and
clear debris out of your smallbowel and to poop.
And all of these things areregulated by the vagus nerve or
the gut brain axis in a broadercapacity.
But the thing is, you only getgood vagal tone and you only get

(35:33):
that vagus nerve activation andtherefore all of the nice
digestive benefits that comefrom it when you are vagus nerve
believes that you are safe.
And connected.
And maybe even happy enough todigest your food and rest.
Yeah.
Like sitting down to eat a meal is a very vulnerable
position for an animal to be in.
And sleeping is reallyvulnerable.

(35:55):
We basically are paralyzed fromthe neck down when we're in deep
sleep.
Yeah, that's a really big deal.
And your nervous system needs toknow that you are safe enough to
sleep.
But similarly, if you think ofanimals at like a watering hole
or a giraffe that's putting itshead all the way down to eat I
guess that's a bad example.
A zebra giraffes would be up inthe trees.
A zebra that's putting theirhead down to eat grass.

(36:15):
You're putting your head down,that's a vulnerable position to
be in.
You're maybe not gonna see thelion that's about to attack you.
So your vagus nerve is onlygonna let you digest when you
feel safe and connected enoughto do but again, like you said,
we're running around like littlestress balls, chugging coffee on
an empty stomach, running to thenext meeting, shoving a granola

(36:35):
bar in our face on the way tothe gym.
Running to the next meeting.
Maybe skipping lunch altogether.
Eating erratic times.
Yeah.
It's a nightmare for ourdigestion.
And then we wonder why so manypeople have tummy problems.

Angie (36:48):
It's so true.
So going back to people thathave irritation when it comes to
eating certain foods, what wouldyou suggest?
Do they just start to find ortry to find foods that don't
irritate them?
Do they start with certain ones?
What would be,'cause like one ofthe things that we talk about
too inside of our program is,getting.

(37:10):
All the things that we'retalking about today, right?
Getting more fruits and morevegetables and the importance of
gut health.
Especially as women goingthrough perimenopause and
menopause, with all thesehormonal changes that are
happening, it becomes even moreimportant.
And there's people that say,yeah, but when I eat cruciferous
vegetables, I'm just, I'm gassy,I'm uncomfortable.
Yeah.
So what do we say to thosepeople?
Like, where do they.

(37:31):
Start, what should they do?
Yeah,

Nikki (37:33):
I think so a couple of things.
They should join my program.
There you go.
That's the whole thing that I dofor a living.
Thanks.
But to summarize I think a, youcould try to still focus on
nutrition and look for foodsthat you tolerate that could
still fill nutritional holes.
Okay.
So if you do a few days ofchronometer and you notice, wow,

(37:54):
I do not eat any folatewhatsoever.
You don't have to start withbeads and lentils and gassy
foods to get folate.
Maybe you start with lettucesand other stuff.
Okay.
Or, if you get gassy, I'm tryingto think of another like very
specific kind of nutrient.
Theoretically, let's say thatyou weren't eating enough
vitamin C.
You could get vitamin C frombroccoli, but what if you don't

(38:17):
do well with broccoli?
And you're not tolerating thatand it's gonna make you gassy.
What if we try to get yourvitamin C from bell peppers?
Or strawberries or guava or,some other fruit.
So I think that you could stillbenefit from going on an app
like chronometer, assessingwhere you're at again, like real
truthful assessment of whereyou're at.
Yeah.
And I'm gonna pause and I'mgonna confess something to you.

(38:37):
Hi, my name is Nikki and I'm arecovered vegetarian.
Oh,
I was a vegetarian from the age of 11 until 22.
Okay.
Which was, or no, 23.
It was right around the age whenI went gluten-free and at the
time, dairy free.
And I was starting to muck withmy diet and I basically
reintroduced meat because I waswhittling my diet down in other

(38:59):
ways.
And I didn't wanna be left withonly organic ice cubes to eat.
So I did this flip flop where Iwent from eating a lot of gluten
and dairy as a vegetarian to nogluten, no dairy, but then I had
to work the meat back in.
But my
point is and I'm, I've, I really try, I'm not an
egomaniac.
It's not.
It.
It wasn't about that, but Istill fell for the brainwashing

(39:22):
enough that I believed in thecore of my being, that my diet
was intrinsically healthy,intrinsically perfect, because I
was a vegetarian.
So this is gonna sound so dumb,and I hate saying it now.
I was a rower in high school andcollege.
And in college, they had one ofthe nutrition or dietetic
students come and give apresentation for our team every

(39:45):
single year.
And every year I largely tunedthat nutrition student out.
Because I thought I'm thehealthiest eater on this team.
This is the conversation that'snot for me.
It's for all of those jam oakswho eat garbage.
I'm gonna go back to eating myhummus sandwich and I'm hunky
dory.
And now I look back and I'mlike, Ooh, Nick.
Oh, you sweet dummy.

(40:06):
Yes.
If only you knew.
I know, right?
My diet was reasonably healthy,but I guarantee you, if I could
go back in time and draw my ownblood, I was definitely
deficient in iron.
B12, zinc.
Protein.
I tried to make up for theprotein thing by eating
unearthly amounts of nuts andseeds and trail mix.
It's like I had stuff to workon, but something about my.

(40:29):
By being brainwashed by dietdogma.
Yeah.
Or my ego or some combinationthereof prevented me from really
having that honest moment withmyself and then looking at my
nutrition.
Yeah.
So my point is, don't be theperson who assumes that you're
nutritionist.
Fine.
Please put your money where yourmouth is.

(40:49):
Yeah.
And actually do a few days oftracking.
I promise it will not kill youand it'll take you maybe five or
six minutes per day to log yourfood.
Yeah.
It's really not hard with thesesmartphone apps.
At least I have the excuse thatthis was the early two thousands
and the apps and smartphones didnot exist.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So like I would've had to writeit down on paper and then find
some janky HTML coded website togo try to find a calculator on,

(41:13):
or I would've had to do adietician appointment.
But yeah, it's so easy to dothis.
I.
Forgive me, I forgot what myoriginal point was because I got
sidetracked on Don't be a dummy.
Yeah.
And don't let your ego get thebetter of you.

Angie (41:25):
Yeah.
But I think that's somethingthat so many runners also,
right?
Like we as runners prideourselves in being healthy and
we run and we eat healthy.
And I think that we do trickourselves slash lie to ourselves
a lot of times.
I'm a coach.
I do these things and sometimesI found okay, so I'll give you
my confession here.

(41:45):
As well, just a few weeks ago,maybe a month ago, at some point
I was just noticing like myenergy levels, I was more sore
after my workouts.
I'm like, what's going on?
And so I did decide to, I wasgonna track for a week.
I don't typically track everyday, but I do you agree that
tracking can be a very usefultool when used for a short
period of time to give usinsights on what is actually
happening here.

(42:06):
And I so quickly, after a day,'cause I know what I eat every
day.
Like I'm not, I eat basicallythe same things every day.
And so I could.
I tracked for a dent.
I'm like, oh my gosh.
Like I'm not eating enoughcarbs.
Like I'm not eating enoughcarbs.
'cause like I've been so focusedon protein and like all these
other things.
But that's

Nikki (42:21):
okay because carbs are evil.
Now didn't you get the memo fromthe keto and the carnivore
community?
The carbs are evil.
So you are just doing thehealthy thing Girlfriend, we're
just doing the healthy

Angie (42:30):
thing.
Yeah, but like hormones

Nikki (42:31):
and serotonin be damned.

Angie (42:32):
Screw them.
Care about those, especiallyrunners, like runners need
energy.
Runners need carbs, right?
Women.
Yeah.
And so I started eating morecarbs and I kid you not, I like
was healing better.
My energy levels, everything wasbetter.
And I lost, I dunno, like acouple pounds, like three, three
or four pounds over the courseof a week, which is insane.
Because your metabolism cameback online.

(42:53):
Yeah.
Like welcome back, and I wasprobably like, I was bloated.
I was like probably holding ontowater, whatever.
So tracking can be a very usefultool.
And I do think that even thoseof us that know better, quote
unquote sometimes we fall intohabits or sometimes we just
think we're doing totally theright thing.
Totally.
And we're like, oh, oops.
I I guess not so well

Nikki (43:11):
for me, I do this for a living.
I talk about nutrition Yeah.
All day, every day with mystudents.
Yep.
Yet, even as recently as lastyear, I had a little cub to
Jesus moment with my tracking.
And I'll go through periodswhere like I'll track for a
couple weeks or maybe a month,and then I won't do it for a
while.
And then I'll track again forfunsies, and then I won't.
And it depends like what myfitness goals are, or if I'm

(43:32):
making a big change or if I'mworking on a goal.
But I finally had this kind ofcub to Jesus moment of, oh, I
don't think I ate enoughprotein.
Like I'm six feet tall and like190 pounds.
I am a big woman.
So I probably need more proteinthat I was eating.
But again, I confess, I'm arecovered vegetarian.
So I think that my sort ofdefault programming still is to

(43:55):
lean more into the plant foodsand away from protein.
Sure.
Rich foods.
So I had to again, have thismoment of truth with myself.
And then made an effort on it.
So this would've been Februaryof last year, I had this
realization and thought, okay,we're gonna work on this, Nick.
This is gonna happen.
And then I gave myself sixmonths to just focus on protein,

(44:18):
not tracking, not measuring, butlike making a conscious effort
to add a little bit of wheyprotein or have three eggs with
my breakfast instead of two, oreat fish with my lunch more
often, versus having hummus formy lunch.
Do things like that.
I gave myself six months to justwork on that until it felt
normal and routine.
Yeah.
Then I did another round oftracking in October to verify,

(44:41):
hey, I tried to do a thing, didI succeed in doing the thing?
Yeah.
Like you don't just teachyourself Japanese and then never
try to speak Japanese tosomebody to prove if you were
successful in teaching yourself.
So I tracked again, and by gollyI got my protein up.
Nice.
And I might even need to go upanother notch, honestly.
But yeah.
I am, these nutrition changescan be tricky and they can take

(45:04):
time.
And that goes for people withformal education in the topic.
Let alone somebody who justfound out today that broccoli
has vitamin C, yeah.
People who don't have thatbackground might, it might
really be more of a struggle, orit might take more time and
diligence and effort, and youmight wanna educate yourself a
little bit on nutrition in theprocess so that you can do the

(45:24):
back of the nap and calculationand think to yourself, oh, I
didn't have any vitamin C today.
I have some strawberries in thefridge, so maybe I'll have a
couple of those for a snack.
Yeah.
Do that sort of stuff withyourself.

Angie (45:33):
Yeah.
For us as runners, it'sextremely important that we fuel
our bodies well, and this is oneof the things that I wanna
scream from the rooftops,especially for women in over 40,
women in perimenopause andmenopause, they start gaining
weight, and one of our firstthings that we do is restrict,
right?
Yep.
Start restricting calories,start dieting, doing all these
things, and it could just throwyour whole body into complete

(45:58):
chaos and lead to the oppositeresult of what you want.
There's a lot of women that whenI tell them, okay, you have to
eat before you run, you have toeat before your workouts.
Like it is the best for yourbody to not train fast in a
fasted state because of all thecortisol levels and all the
other things.
Yeah.
And people then say, yeah, but if I eat before I run,

(46:18):
my stomach is all messed up.
So I often tell them, startsmall.
Can you train your gut?
Is really my question for you.
Like the whole idea of trainingyour gut.
By starting small and adding on,is that a good strategy for us
to use?

Nikki (46:32):
I think so.
And I think it's a combinationof training your gut, training
your metabolism, and trainingyour nervous system to expect
food at that time.
Yes.
Also, like your nervous systemis just a big supercomputer, and
it's a calculated, it's acalculating predicting machine.
So you're taking all of yourexperience from your whole life,
everything you've seen, heard,did, felt, tasted, heard, and

(46:56):
you're using that information totry to predict the future and
keep you safe.
And so if your brain has come tothe understanding from
potentially 40 plus years ofpatterning that.
We are gonna exercise with ashit ton of cortisol, a shit ton
of adrenaline, and nothing inour stomach to fuel us.
That is what your nervous systemand your metabolism and your gut
have come to expect.

(47:17):
And that is gonna be the defaultprogramming.
So it might take more than oneor two instances to train that
out of you.
'cause again, it's like you have8,000 data points supporting
this pattern.
And just two or three new datapoints with a new pattern is not
gonna convince the supercomputer that life is gonna be
different now.

Angie (47:34):
So that's so powerful because that's what happens,
right?
Like when they'll, they try it acouple of times and they're
like, yeah, no, I tried that didwork.

Nikki (47:42):
This doesn't work for me.

Angie (47:43):
Exactly.

Nikki (47:44):
Yeah.
No, you don't have differentphysiology than the rest of us.
Sorry.

Angie (47:48):
But it makes so much sense because when we're early,
like earlier in our lives, whenwe're in our teenagers or our
twenties or even our thirties,we can get a away with a lot
more.

Nikki (47:56):
Oh, you can get away with murder.
I distinctly remember, andagain, this was when I was a
rower and I was waking up at5:00 AM Yeah.
I had to be at the boathouse atfive 30.
We were working out hard for twoor three hours.
Then we had second workouts withweight training three times a
week.
That was the fittest andprobably most exhausted I've
been in my entire life.

(48:16):
Yeah.
But.
I kid you not like I treat, Itreated my body like garbage.
Oh yeah.
Now a lot of my teammates wentout drinking a lot.
'cause college.
Yeah.
But that's never been my jam.
I, you're learning so much aboutme.
I was in the anime club.
Nice.
So I would stay up late with myanime nerd friends and we would
play like video games andDungeons and Dragons and

(48:38):
settlers to Catan.
And then we would go, there wasthis big room and the student
union that had a projectorprojection screen uhhuh.
And we would watch anime until2:00 AM Yeah.
I would come home to my dormroom fairly regularly at one or
2:00 AM and then wake up atfive.
Yeah.
And then go row really hard.
Yep.
And like race and do things.

(48:58):
And then, skipping, skippingbreakfast and running all over
Tarnation for classes.
I treated my body like garbage.
And you can only get away withthat so many times, but Right.
Youth confers a certain amountof resiliency.
And we take that for granted,and we come to expect that's
gonna be the normal thing forall the rest of our days.
Right
now, like in my late thirties, if I don't get minimum

(49:22):
seven and a half or eight hoursof sleep every night, I feel
like a garbage human being and Ihave to take a nap in the middle
of the workday.
Like it's bongers.

Angie (49:29):
It is totally different.
It is.
And I think that's whatfrustrates and confuses so many
women because they're like, thisI, it used to work.
I don't understand.
It's yeah, but you're not 20anymore.
Like you're now you're 40, nowyou're 50.
Like things have changed yourbody changed.
Your training needs to trainchange.
Your nutrition needs to change.
All of these things need toadapt.

Nikki (49:48):
And you bring up a point.
Two is that your body from twoyears ago, or five years ago, or
20 years ago, is not the samebody that you're living in right
now.
And there's the age piece of it,which I think most people can
wrap their head around.
But even so sometimes I will seepeople and they'll be like,
damn, this herb or thisprobiotic used to work for me.

(50:10):
But now the SIBO is back, thebloating is back, the
constipation is back.
And that same probiotic doesn'tseem like it's working for me
anymore.
Yeah.
What gives, but they, when Ipick apart the story and grow
them a little bit more, italways comes out, oh, I did have
to have antibiotics for a UTItwo months ago.
Or, oh, I've been under like, anungodly amount of stress lately.

(50:32):
Yep.
Or, oh, I did forget to tell youthat I fell for the keto,
Instagram world and like Itotally cut all the carbs outta
my diet and I didn't tell you.
Or oh, by the way.
Or I added this totally newproduct.
Yeah.
Or medication.
And it's okay.
And that's all fine.
Like I'm not knocking, there'sno judgment.
Those things.

(50:52):
Yeah.
It's just your body is differentnow.
And in the case of antibioticuse, your microbiome is a bit
different now.
So the probiotic that used towork for you, the prebiotic, the
whatever that used to work foryou might not work for the new
version of you.
And that's okay.
Yeah.
But I think that's why.
At least for me, like with whatI do and how I teach my

(51:13):
students, I think a really bigpart of this is learning to be a
little bit of a citizenscientist.
Learning to lead with aninquisitive, curious kind of
energy.
Yeah.
And
just using yourself as your own Guinea pig and trying
things out.
Okay this probiotic doesn't seemto work anymore.
I guess I'm gonna try adifferent one and I'm gonna see
what happens.
Yeah.
Or oh, I used to tolerate applesjust fine.

(51:35):
And then Tuesday I didn'ttolerate the apple.
Isn't that kind of weird?
But oh, I did have a badinteraction or a fight with my
boss.
So maybe that was it.
Like maybe I should try applesagain and see was it really the
apples or was it theconversation with my boss that
triggered the bloating?
Yeah.
But it's all data points.
It's all life is a bigspreadsheet if you want it to
be.

Angie (51:54):
Yeah.
Yeah.
And it's like a big, I like tothink of it as like that one of
those connect the dots drawingsas well.
Yeah, there's all thesedifferent data points and all
these different dots and it'sthe stress and the food and like
all of these things.
And so many of us, especiallywomen, are.
Thinking that we're doing allthe right things and we've got,
I've got all the dots on mypaper, and it's yeah, but
they're not connected, and likeall of these things underneath

(52:17):
it all are completely connected,like you say, when we can tap
into that sense of curiosityversus frustration and judgment,
we get so much of our power backbecause we're like, oh, we start
to see some of these connectionsand how our body responds to it.

Nikki (52:32):
Yeah.
It's like you start to zoom outand you start to see the
patterning a lot more versus theindividual data points.
Yeah.
I will say too, I find thatdisconnect comes up where people
think they're doing all theright things.
Where they're like, they'retargeting all the right things,
but to your point, they're notconnected.
I find that happens a lot withsupplement usage in particular.

(52:53):
Okay.
So I will see people clinicallywhere they're like, okay, I,
let's say they have bloating,indigestion, that feeling like.
There's a brick of lead in yourgullet and it's not going
anywhere.
When you're trying to digestyour lunch and you're like, God,
it's been there for two hours,why is it moving?
And let's say the person isconstipated and they're like,
but I'm doing all the things I'mtaking.

(53:13):
I had died for my thyroid andI'm taking Metamucil for the
constipation and I'm taking thesuch and such for the bloating.
And I'm taking, peppermint oilfor the bloating and they're on
8 million gazillion differentsupplements, yeah.
For methylated folate for myM-D-H-F-R, whatever it might be.
But it's all discombobulated anddisconnected because that's not

(53:36):
really treating the bodyholistically.
Yeah.
And I blame functional medicineby and large for this is like
my.
My profession to a large degree,likes to talk a big game of we
treat the body holistically andwe treat the person not the
disease.
And there's some truth to that,right?
If you have 10 different peoplewith rheumatoid arthritis, go to

(53:57):
an integrative doctor, they'reprobably gonna get 10 different
unique treatments.
But that kind of goes out thewindow when we get into the
functional diagnoses.
So if you have 10 differentpeople who are diagnosed with
leaky gut
And
they all go to the same integrative doctor or
naturopath, I guarantee you, Iwill bet you a one crisp$100
bill.

(54:17):
Now that single practitioner hasone leaky gut healer, upper
supplement that they love andthey have it stocked in their
inventory, and that's the onlyleaky gut healer upper they will
ever use because the rep fromthe company convinced them it is
the best.
Yeah.
End of story.
But it's like.
In the example of 10 people withrheumatoid arthritis, maybe only
five of them have leaky gut perthe functional diagnostics at

(54:39):
least.
And maybe five of them havecandida, and then four of them
have, inflammation levels thatare detectable in blood.
And maybe three of them aredeficient in omega threes.
So like they're gonna get acustomized treatment plan from
the conventional kind of lens,but again, if you have the same
functional diagnosis, or like 10people with SIBO walk into an

(55:01):
integrative clinic, they'regonna get the same damn
antimicrobials, the elementaldiet, the same SIBO diet, and
it.
It again it cracks me up and itfrustrates me greatly because
this is a group of people whosay we treat the person not the
disease.
And we treat everybody as anindividual, but they don't.
So I forget what my point was.

(55:21):
I got too fiery there.
I got No, but I'm distracted.
I'm glad

Angie (55:24):
you did though, because I think that is one thing that
people often say okay, there isthis more of a heyday now
towards functional medicine andholistic medicine, which sounds
great on paper, but like you'resaying here is that it has its
own problems also, right?
Like conventional medicine hasits own problems.
Functional medicine has its ownproblems.
And ultimately what we need toget back to is reconnecting to

(55:45):
ourselves and starting to eat adiverse.
Like nutrition, like diversediet that has lots of fruits and
vegetables, that has lots ofgood protein in it, that we can
essentially take care ofourselves from the inside out.
Yeah.
And not have to rely onsupplementation and all these
other things.

Nikki (56:04):
Yeah.
And I wanna be transparent here.
I, a part of my heart willalways belong to functional
medicine.
I don't really hang out in thatspace all that much anymore.
Yeah.
But a part of my heart will always belong to them.
That field helped me and gave mea foundation of understanding
the human body that I wouldnever.
In a million years give up.
Yeah.
But it's just it's just everyfield and it's just every tool

(56:27):
in any given field, I don't careif it's physical therapy or
plumbers or receptionist orwhatever, there's gonna be a
bell curve of people who are.
Utterly stupendous at their job.
People who are good but notamazing.
And people who absolutely suckat their job.
Yeah.
And that's okay.
Again, that's for every singleprofession.

(56:47):
Yeah.
On planet earth.
Totally.
There's just a bell curve.
My dad always likes to joke,what do they call the guy who
graduated lasted his medicalschool.
Doctor.
Doctor.
Yeah.
The guy who barely passed any ofhis medical boards, like he's
still called the doctor and hestill can be treating you.
And again, like that's okay.
And you don't know medicalschool is rigorous enough.
I'm, he's probably stillbrilliant in this case, my point

(57:09):
is with every profession there'sgonna be the good, the bad, and
the ugly.
And every tool has a time and aplace.
Yeah.
There are a lot of medications that are overused
and abused and it's makingpeople very sick.
But there's a time and a placefor almost every prescription
that we have.
And it's not that prescriptionsare all bad.
I'm not gonna throw the baby outwith the bath water and say that

(57:30):
conventional medicine orpharmaceuticals are
intrinsically a bad evil thing.
As a side note, chiropractorslove to say that kind of shit
and it drives me crazy, but.
For some reason, like they'rethe really hardcore, like no
drugs, no surgery ever, never.
And if you have taken a drug orhad a surgery in your entire
lifetime, then you're like a badperson.
No, geez.
Or you're stupid or somethinglike, I, I bet so many

(57:51):
chiropractors with thatviewpoint.
But yeah, my point is we coulduse things like food sensitivity
tests.
We can use things likeelimination diets.
We could use things likesupplements and vitamins, but we
could use them wisely andsparingly while still focusing
90 plus percent of our effort onthe basic, boring, unsexy stuff

(58:12):
that none of us want to do.
Nobody wants to hear that sleepis important for gut health and
physical performance.
But I kid you, I'm not gonna lieto you though.
No.
I'm not gonna lie to you about,I know physiology and how the
body works and what PubMed tellsyou.
Sleep is important for guthealth and it's important for
physical performance and mentalhealth.
Oh yeah.
And metabolism everything.

(58:33):
And just because you, likeeverybody else wants to stay up
late scrolling on your phone,watching K-pop music videos.
Okay.
Maybe this one's really specificto me.
Reading your Webtoon comics andyou want to just because you
want to stay up late scrollingon your phone, that does not
negate how human physiologyworks.
It's like we need to just wrapour head around these boring,

(58:54):
unsexy basic things and howfoundational and crucial they
are for human health.
Yeah.
Focus 90 plus percent of ourtime on those things.
And then we could save theconversation for the fancy
schmanzy targeted anti candidaherbs or the fancy schmanzy
leaky gut healer upper products.
Or The fancy like M-T-H-F-Rprotocols, like we could save
that as like a very thin icingon an otherwise healthy cake.

Angie (59:18):
That makes so much sense.
And I think that this.
Like again, we have to just keepshouting it from the rooftops,
that it is the boring, unsexythings that lead to the majority
of our health and how we feel.
And if we're getting enoughsleep.
And, I tell my clients likealmost pretty much any study
ever done does, no matter whatthey're measuring has shown, if

(59:39):
you don't get enough sleep, thatwhatever you're measuring goes
down.
And if you get enough sleep, itgoes up.
Is like the one thing thatacross the board has very
significant effects on whateveroutcome you're measuring.
Yeah.

Nikki (59:54):
And there are others, right?
Like I mentioned blood sugar inthe beginning of the episode,
like blood sugar is so importantfor brain health, hormone
health, thyroid health,metabolic health.
Gut health.
There was a study actually inhumans.
They did, I believe it was, I.
MRI.
It could have been CT though, sodon't quote me on it.

(01:00:16):
But they did a study and theycompared healthy, normal people
with diabetics and they wereable to show that the girth of
the vagus nerve was reduced by50%.
Wow.
In people with diabetes.
Really?
Yeah.
We wanna talk about vagal tonebeing important for gut health.
If your blood sugar is on aroller coaster ride all day

(01:00:37):
every day, good luck.
Your vagus nerve ain't gonnawork much if you're doing that
to yourself.

Angie (01:00:43):
That is insane.
Wow.
I'm so glad you shared that withme.
That's amazing.
Yeah.
Horrifying.
Nikki also.
Nikki, this conversation hasjust I could talk to you for
hours, I swear.
'cause I still have so manyquestions in my head, but I
wanna be respectful of yourtime.
Is there anything we haven't,there's a ton that we haven't
talked about, I know, butanything that you feel you want

(01:01:03):
to make sure that we touch ontoday before we wrap up?

Nikki (01:01:06):
Oh goodness.
Like you said, there's so muchthat's such a terrible question.
And it's okay.
Yeah.
And I will admit being concisehas never been my strong suit.
Yeah,

Angie (01:01:15):
that's, but the thing about it too, though, you just
have, you have such greatinformation and I feel like this
is so important for people tohear and we could seriously, I
have so many questions that areso popping up in my head right
now, but again, we wanna, Iwanna be respectful of your
time.
Any last thought that you wannashare with us and for our
runners?

Nikki (01:01:33):
I will throw out there that I'm flexible on my end time
here, so if you wanna throw outa question, you can.
I think what I wanna bring up isgoing back to the idea of the
person who says, I would love toeat more of these foods, but I
get bloated, I get cramping,yes, I get diarrhea, I get
constipated, whatever it mightbe.
'cause I think that you askedwhat would that person do?

(01:01:53):
And I joked that they shouldjoin my program, but then I
think I didn't actually answerthe.
I'm sorry.
No, it's all good.
It's hard when you have a funconversation and you just go off
on a rabbit trail.
I know.
It's about the original point.
Yeah.
So what I would say it, intruth, if they don't wanna join
my program and that's notsomething that they wanna do,
then I think that what I wouldhave them do, like I said, is

(01:02:14):
track on something likechronometer or MyFitnessPal.
Look at your calories, yourmacros, your fiber intake, your
vitamins and minerals, and seeif you could fill any of those
nutritional holes with the foodsthat you currently tolerate.
Okay.
And start there.
For example, since a lot, butnot a hundred percent of people
who joined my program are onsome sort of restricted, like

(01:02:35):
IBS diet or SIBO diet, like lowfodmap.
I have a list of low FODMAPfoods.
Okay.
And I have different cos forlike fruits, vegetables, nuts
and seeds, dairy products, etcetera.
Okay.
And sometimes I'll have themprint that off and have it like,
on their fridge or download itas a PDF on their phone and use
that sort of as a groceryshopping list.

(01:02:55):
Okay.
And that way okay, if you'restill in a position where you
need to avoid the high FODMAPfoods.
That's okay.
We're gonna acknowledge that thegoal is to reintroduce those
foods.
But if you're in a holdingpattern right now and you're
feeling a bit stuck, let's tryto optimize your nutrition as
much as humanly possible whilestaying in the confines of that
diet.
And maybe you can add in somelow FODMAP foods or some Okay.

(01:03:17):
Some foods that are lesstriggery for you.

Angie (01:03:18):
Yeah.

Nikki (01:03:19):
And I would say this, for any restrictive diet, I could
have somebody on a low histaminediet and we could have a
conversation of, okay, let'sthink of creative ways to get
vitamin C and riboflavin andniacin and these things, but
while still operating in theconfines of a low histamine diet
so that we don't trigger yoursymptoms and make you feel like
garbage.
Okay.
Yeah.
So I think that's the first stepis track.

(01:03:41):
Then second step is try todiversify your diet and fill
nutritional holes with the foodsthat you currently tolerate.
Okay.
Then I would start ex and duringthis process, I would examine
those unsexy foundational basicthings.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Sleep stress movement.
Do you get sunshine on youreyeballs ever?
Ever.
A lot of us, myself included,spend so much of our day trapped

(01:04:04):
in indoors.
And I'll tell you what, I haveall of my filming lights lit up
so that my backdrop was allpretty for you for this podcast
interview.
Yeah.
But if I step outside, my eyeswill be shocked by how bright
the sun is compared to not evenjoking.
1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 lights.
I have lit up in this room, notincluding the worthless light in

(01:04:26):
the ceiling.
Yeah.
Like I have so many lights litup in this room.
Yeah.
And still the sun is so muchbrighter and more powerful.
And as a side note, another coolstudy, I think this was outta
Japan also, there was a studywhere they took people and they
fed them a standardized diet.
And they had one group in, orthey had.
People.
One of the days they had them ina bright light room, which was

(01:04:49):
set to mimic natural sunlight.
And they fed the breakfast,lunch, dinner, and they measured
breath gases throughout the day.
Okay.
In response to that food, theother group was in a dim, dimly
lit room, which was meant tomimic normal indoor lighting
that most of us live in.
Sure.
The group that was in thesunlight mimicking room produced

(01:05:10):
less intestinal gas, like 50%less gas.
Wow.
Yeah.
Versus on average there, somepeople it was a lot more, a lot
less than that, but on average,the people who were exposed to
something mimicking sunlightmade while they were eating
less.
Same food, same damn food.

Angie (01:05:27):
Yeah.
But like during the eatingprocess.

Nikki (01:05:29):
Yes.

Angie (01:05:30):
Yeah.

Nikki (01:05:30):
They made less gas compared to the people who were
in a dimly let lit room, whichagain to clarify, was meant to
mimic normal lighting inside abuilding, inside a house or an
office building.
Wow.
And that's what we all live in.
Yes.
So get your ass outside.
You might not need to spendmoney on the$60 bottle of
probiotics.

(01:05:50):
You might just need to get yourass outside.
Eat outside or just go outside.
Or go for a walk.
Yeah.
Or just sit on your butt.
You don't even have to doanything.
Just sit on your butt outside.
Yeah.
It's, it's

Angie (01:06:02):
But especially if you're eating black beans, eat those
outside.

Nikki (01:06:07):
I don't know.
I eat block beads inside all thetime, but I also I don't
catastrophize a little bit ofbloating here or there, so maybe
that's part of it.
Yeah.
But yeah, so I think that's the other thing that I
would focus on, is just nailingdown some of those unsexy
basics.
Yeah.
Put your phone away a few hoursbefore you go to bed.
Read an actual physical bookbefore bed.
I know.
It paids me to say that.
'cause I love WebToons and Ilove YouTube so much, but, just,

(01:06:29):
yeah.
Or stretch, do some yoga.
Do some breath work, like
Yep.
Wind
down, give yourself a little pedicure.
There are so many things youcould do.
Yeah.
In
the 30 to 60 minutes leading up to sleep.
That would be better for yourbrain and better for your body
as opposed to scrolling on yourphone.

Angie (01:06:45):
Yeah.
And I think that I like one lastpoint that I wanna make too is.
How you eat matters as well,right?
If you are eating and scrollingon your phone Yes.
And you're not paying attentionto your food and you're just
eating as fast as you can,you're in the car, you're on the
go.
Like that matters in yourdigestion also.
And not a huge, so many peopledon't understand that.

(01:07:06):
Like they, or yes, I'm justeating, like eating.
Doesn't matter where I eat, itdoesn't matter how I eat.
And it like, no, all of itmatters.

Nikki (01:07:13):
Yeah.
Yeah.
And that there's a lot ofconnectedness with the gut
brainin axis and like thesensory experience and the
nervous system experience ofeating.
Yeah.
I have, so I have something like300 gifs and memes embedded
throughout my program.
Oh my gosh.
And find that freedom.
And I just, it's and I joke thatpeople always learn my favorite
shows and movies as a process ofworking with me because I have

(01:07:35):
things peppered in from like TheGood Place, the Office.
That's so fun and rec.
Yeah.
You know the Matrix, like all ofthese Dweeby references.
That's so cool.
But there's one that I have inthe section where we're talking
a lot about the vagus nerve andyour relationship with food and
like how you're going into thatmeal.
And there's this gif of Winniethe Poh and he's sitting down to
eat probably honey, but it mightbe a B piece of birthday cake, I

(01:07:58):
forget.
And he's sitting at the chairand he's going like this and
he's doing this adorable littlelike happy dance, wiggle in his
seat.
Before he eats whatever it is.
And I tell people that's thegoal.

Angie (01:08:10):
Yeah.

Nikki (01:08:12):
You want to be.
At least neutral, if notthrilled to death to eat the
food that you're about to eat.
And that might mean occasionallyeating the brownie and something
that's unhealthy.
Yeah.
But I would rather eat a brownieand enjoy it than eat a 100%
sugar free, grain-free, organicketo, low carb, low everything.
Low joy diet for the rest of mydays.

(01:08:33):
Cardboard.
Yeah.
Cardboard diet.
Yeah.
To your point, I think that howyou eat in the sense of eating
around the same time most days,giving yourself enough time and
attention to really focus onyour food and digest your food.
Not shoving a granola bar or aprotein bar in your face, dri
hurdling down the highway on theway to your next meeting Yeah.

(01:08:54):
While putting lipstick on in themirror.
Yeah.
Like.
How you bring yourself to theseat so that you could digest
your food is important.
And like I said, the mentalityof do you actually like the food
that you're eating is reallyimportant and overlooked.
I remember, so I had the suit,so we do q and a's as part of
the program that I run.

(01:09:14):
And I remember we were on thesection where we were talking
about how you eat and the ideaof maybe chew your food more,
right?
A lot of people don't chew,especially in this country at
least.
And so I brought this to thetable.
I'm like, you probably need tochew your food more.
And I remember this one student,and she comes outta the q and a
and she goes I've already beendoing this for X amount of years
and I still don't feel better.

(01:09:36):
And I quote her now, she said,this was like four years ago.
I still remember this vividly.
She said, and I quote, I chewevery bite of food until it's a
disgusting flavorless paste.
I was like.
Whoa.
You're like,

Angie (01:09:54):
that sounds unpleasant.

Nikki (01:09:56):
Yeah.
Can you imagine what your vagusnerve is thinking if it had, if
it had mind, own.
Can you imagine the state ofyour VAs nerve?
Oh my God.
If you chew every bite of foodto a disgusting flavorless
paste, your vagus nerve iscrossing her arms, shaking her
head and saying, nuh uhuh.
Oh my God, we are not doingthis.

(01:10:17):
Oh my God.
This woman was particularly orOrthorexic had a lot of like
beliefs around food and healththat we're challenging to work
with.
Yeah.
But I remember on this group q and a, I remember te
just, my jaw dropped and I thinkI paused.
It's hard to render bespeechless.
But I think I was speechless fora couple seconds and I remember
telling her, I was like, okaynew.

(01:10:39):
Recommendation.
I said, everybody else on this qand A, your job is to go home
and chew your food a little bitmore.
You, your job is to chew yourfood way less.
'cause that sounds gross.
Yeah.
And your VA nerve is not tappedinto your digestive process
whatsoever at this point.
You need to make food enjoyableagain.
And it might've been her, I cameup with this kind of barometer

(01:11:01):
for disordered eating.
I told, I think it was her, Itold her in that moment, I said,
honestly, it might be good ifyou just sit down and eat a bowl
of Doritos.
And I could judge how muchdisordered eating people have
when I say the word Doritos.
Yes.
And they, if they look shook, asthe kids would say, if they look
horrified to the core of theirbeing, I'm like, Ooh, we've got

(01:11:22):
stuff to work on here.
But if they're, if they get alittle bit excited, shit.
Your kid like Doritos.
Are you kidding me?
For real?
That's okay.
Like regular or cool.
Ranch.
What are we talking here?
Yeah, like the nutrition expertis telling me it's okay to eat
junk food sometimes.
Holy crap.
This is great.
But yeah, I think that she wasthe first person that I busted
out the Dorito hypothesis onwhere I was like, honestly, man,
it might be good for you to justeat, pound out some Doritos and

(01:11:44):
see how you enjoy that.
And of course she didn't do it.
Yeah.
But it's, I was horrified andquit your program.
You, yeah.
You can lead a horse to water,but you can't make'em drink.
Yeah.
And that's very much true in thehealth and healing world.

Angie (01:11:55):
A hundred percent.
And same thing in the runningworld as well.
There are so many times that Ifind people come in and I'm like
you're doing too much.
Like you need to cut back.
Like your hormones are so out ofcon outta whack, your nervous
system is whacked out.
Like you need to run less.
Yeah.
We need to pull you back.
And they're like, like they getscared.
And I, same thing with food, Itell them, you need to start
eating more.

(01:12:16):
Like honestly, you're not eatingenough.
Yeah.
And they are genuinely afraid ofeating more.
And I'm like, okay, so what isit about this that makes you
afraid?
Because it's food.
Like food's not gonna hurt you,but it's the conditioning, it's
the decades of conditioning of Ineed to have a smaller body.
Like I need to always be on adiet.
I always need to be restrictingwhat would happen if I actually

(01:12:39):
started eating more.
They just have this, vision thatthey're gonna grow in 400 pounds
overnight.

Nikki (01:12:44):
Yeah.
It's hard, right?
It is.
Because there, there is somebalance to strike, but it's, I
straight up had a conversationwith one of my students.
Four days ago in my q and a andshe told me, she said I've
gained some weight since theprogram started.
And this was week nine that wejust did last week.
Yeah.
Nine outta 12.
So we're about two months deep.
And she said I have gained a bitof weight.

(01:13:06):
So it's joy to your program?
Yeah.
But she said, you know what, I'mokay with it.
Like it's fine.
She said, because I realized inweek one of your program that I
was not eating enough and I hadnot eaten enough in a really
long time.
Yeah.
And you know what?
My bloating is gone.
My constipation is gone.
I feel great.
I could eat basically whatever Iwant.
And I'm just gonna, I'm gonnawork out, I'm gonna make sure

(01:13:27):
that I'm strong and healthy.
And if it means putting on alittle bit of adipose tissue, a
k, a fat, yeah.
Maybe that's okay.
And I just, I'm gonna just.
Chill with that.
And that was really rare to hearsomething like that.
'cause most people wig when theygain a few pounds.
But it was, I give her a lot ofcredit for saying that.

(01:13:47):
Absolutely.
And we had this big discussionof like, all right, there's this
really difficult conversationand especially with the dialogue
in the world right now, is thata lot of people wanna have,
thank God, I hope that I don'tinsult anybody here or go off
too much auto rail off the rail.
But there's this bodypositivity, anti-D diet kind of
movement, right?
Yep.

(01:14:08):
And I get that and I embrace itto a degree, right?
Like I grew up at a time whereAmerica's next top model was on
the TV and I saw Tyra Banks beraided girls and call them plus
size models when they were asize six.
That was, or like the biggestloser.
I just saw something pop up onmy feet the other day with
Jillian Michaels absolutely beraiding this woman.

(01:14:30):
Yeah.
And I just.
I forgot how much I hate thatshow and that woman and I was
just like, oh my God.
It's no wonder why us likemillennials and elder
millennials and Gen Xers havescrewed up body images.
So many eating issues, by allmeans.
Like we don't have to be twigthin, we don't have to be super

(01:14:51):
model K-pop idol thin.
That's not sustainable and nothealthy for the vast majority of
us.
However, there's this likespectrum of what could be
healthy, normal body weight andwhere you would feel really good
and you could still be likestrong and fit and
well-nourished and not have likeIPS and amenorrhea.
Yeah.
But like where do those linesgo?

(01:15:13):
Where, for somebody who's maybelike 400 pounds.
They were probably would begenuinely healthier if they lost
some of that excess fat.
But does that mean that somebodygoing from 120 pounds to 125
pounds is unhealthier becausenow they have the tedious bit of
a belly pooch.
No, I mean there's, and it'sreally tricky fighting out where

(01:15:35):
that is for different people andlike where their comfort level
lies.
Yeah.
But yeah it can be a big deal.
I

Angie (01:15:40):
agree.
Yeah, I agree.
I think that like anything,there's extremes, right?
Like we want people to, to loveand be proud and feel good in
their skin and also make surethat they're living a, the
healthiest version of their lifethat is possible, right?
Yeah.
And that's both mentally andphysically.
'cause like you said, it's notgood to constantly be.
Constantly be thinking aboutfood all the time.

(01:16:02):
Yeah.
There's a major issue with that.
At the same time, you don'twanna be eating anything you
want all the time in massivequantities.
'cause that's not good for youeither, right?
Like we have Yeah.
There's, we have to avoid theextremes.

Nikki (01:16:13):
There's gotta be some balance where yeah, we do the
right thing and we try to eathealthfully and take care of our
bodies and move our bodies andget sunshine on our cheeks and
do those things 80 or 90% of thetime.
And then 10 or 20% of the timeyou just eat your brownie and
you live your life.
I think Americans are prettyclassically less skilled with

(01:16:33):
moderation.
And I see a lot of people, forexample, when we go back home to
Buffalo and we see my in-law'sside of the family.
Yeah.
A lot of my husband's side ofthe family type two diabetic,
overweight.
Hypertensive, eating a lot ofsugar and junk food.
Yeah.
Donuts and ice cream and sodaand all of these things.

(01:16:54):
Yeah.
And it's again, there's thiscontinuum of, those are some
people that I really wish knew alittle bit more about health or
nutrition or cared about.
Health or nutrition a bit more.
I think that their lives couldbe longer and better quality and
their health could be a lotbetter if they thought about
something like fiber, forexample.
But again, we have this otherside of the pendulum where a lot

(01:17:17):
of people get very obsessed atorthorexic and like their whole
life is dictated by theirrunning or their right, their
super ultra clean diet.
And that's not healthy either.
So it's where is there thismiddle ground where you can eat
healthfully and treat your bodywith respect and treat it with
love most of the time, but alsoembody, witty the poo and eat

(01:17:41):
birthday cake with your kid whenthey have a birthday,

Angie (01:17:43):
yeah.
Amen.
And I try to live that life.
Yeah.
And I think that's a great thingfor us to shoot for a little
dancing Winnie the poo whenwe're eating our lunch or our,
whatever it is that we'reeating.

Nikki (01:17:55):
Or Michael Pollen said it best years and years ago.
Eat food, not too much.
Mostly plants.
Yep.
We again, hu we started theepisode and now we'll end the
episode by saying human beingslove to complicate things.
Yep.
And it's one of our greatest skills and we
overcomplicate the ever lovingcrap out of gut health and
nutrition and exerciseperformance.

(01:18:18):
Yep.
But it's really not rocketscience at the end of the day.
At the end of the

Angie (01:18:22):
day.

Nikki (01:18:22):
Yeah.

Angie (01:18:23):
Yeah.
Absolutely.
Couldn't agree more.
Nikki, this has been amazing.
Thank you so much for all ofyour time and your expertise.
Where can our listeners connectwith you so that they can
continue to learn more from you?

Nikki (01:18:34):
Yeah.
So I am, I have three placeswhere I hang out on the general
internet.
So I have a YouTube channel andan Instagram handle by the same
name.
And that is the gut microbiomequeen.
Ooh.
It's point to title, but validnonetheless.
I love it.
Yes.
Gut microbiome queen on YouTubeand Instagram.

(01:18:55):
For Instagram, it's Gut DoMicrobiome Queen.
I dunno if that'll matter muchin the search.
And then I have my own podcast,and I was telling you before we
came on that I co-host that witha friend of mine who's a
registered dietician, and shealso works in the IBS gut health
space.
And that is called the IBSFreedom Podcast, the IBS Freedom
podcast.
Yep.

(01:19:15):
And we talk about.
All things gut health, but toyour point earlier, everything
is connected.
Yeah.
So we have episodes abouthormones or histamine or the gut
skin connection or anxiety andthe gut.
We have a lot of differenttopics on there as well as, more
stereotypical gut topics likeleaky gut, constipation.
C diff, et cetera.

(01:19:35):
But yeah.
And then that is on that has itsown YouTube channel.
So if you want to see Amy and I,you could see us on camera.
Or you could just listen to iton a normal podcasting app.
Awesome.
So yeah that's all of where Icould teach you, on the
internet.
And may I mention my program?
Where you going for that aswell?
Yeah, absolutely.
Yeah.
And we'll of course,

Angie (01:19:55):
we'll of course link everything in the show notes as
well.
Oh, okay.
Yeah, go ahead.
So

Nikki (01:20:00):
yeah, so my program is called FODMAP Freedom in 90
Days, and it's a 12 week, threemonth process where I lead you
through like the user's manualfor the human body.
In a way, I joke with people allthe time, we didn't get a user's
manual when we popped up here onearth.
We just figure it out and wingit our whole lives.
Yeah.
But.
I'm really big on educatingpeople and helping them

(01:20:20):
understand how the body works.
At least to a certain degree,right?
Like you don't have to have amedical degree, but
understanding kind of how bloodsugar works and why it's
important.
Or how the vagus nerve works andwhy it's important.
So I lead you through thatjourney and teach you a lot of
things in the 12 weeks.
And then throughout that we havelive Q and as peppered in.
So I have a nutritionist whoworks for me that I've trained,

(01:20:43):
and then I have my own q and as.
So basically it's a cycle of newcontent will post in the portal
and then people will watch thoselectures on their own.
At their own pace.
It's called a flipped classroom.
I don't know if you're familiarwith that, but.
You watch the lecture kind ofcontent at your own pace
throughout the week, then weconvene for four live q and as a

(01:21:04):
week.
So my nutritionist does two andI do two per week.
And then the new module dropsthe following day and the cycle
repeats for 12 weeks.
Cool.
And then there's also, there'ssome ongoing support.
'cause we give support for afull year.
Once you enroll in the program.
Awesome.
That's kind of it in a nutshell.
That's awesome.
And I mail people some goodiesas part of the process.
Excellent.
We didn't even get into this,but I I fully embrace the fact

(01:21:28):
that we don't know everythingand that we don't have research.
That's definitive on a lot ofthese topics like probiotics
yet.
So while there is good research,and I know that these are great
tools, it can be really trickyto recommend a specific product
for a specific person.
Even if you know their diagnosesand their test results and their
symptoms, it can be reallychallenging.

(01:21:49):
So what I do with a class ofherbs called Prokinetics, which
basically regulate motility andprobiotics, is that I send my
students a package and itbasically, I give them tester
samples of all of thesedifferent products, and I just
kick back and say, you tell mewhich one you like.
Yeah.
I don't know.
Cool.
And that's really great.
The prokinetics can helptremendously with bloating and

(01:22:11):
bowel movements in particular,and reintroducing the FODMAPs
without bloating or pain.
Okay.
And then the probiotics can helpwith all sorts of stuff, but
yeah I baggy those up and sendpackages as part of the process
too.

Angie (01:22:21):
Sweet.
Yeah.
Awesome.
The eagle, I you.
Awesome.
And we'll definitely link up allthat stuff in the show notes.
And those of you that aremembers of real life runners,
Nikki's also gonna be doing aworkshop for us in June.
So stay tuned for that and I'mexcited to dig into some of the
stuff that we didn't get achance to talk about today on
that session.

(01:22:42):
And she'll also be holding a qand a so that all of you can get
your questions answered.
So that will be another way thatyou can connect with Nikki if
you are a real life runnersmember as well.
So yeah, I'll, this is awesome.

Nikki (01:22:54):
That alright, Nikki?
I think we could talk foranother five hours if we wanted
to.
Seriously.

Angie (01:22:56):
We really could.
So maybe we'll have to schedulea part two like later this year
or something.
It'll be fun.
Let's do it.
All

Nikki (01:23:02):
right.
Cool.

Angie (01:23:02):
All right.
Thanks so much for being hereand we'll talk to you soon.

Nikki (01:23:05):
Thank you for having me on.

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