Ep. 10 || Real Men, Real Marriage: Conversations on Love, Loss, and Learning Together

"Mawage. Mawage is what brings us together today." The iconic words of The Impressive Clergyman from The Princess Bride perfectly set the stage for today's episode!

Join hosts Ben and Jim as they open up about the highs and lows of marriage. They candidly share experiences from their own individual marriages with humor, honesty, and empathy.

From everyday triumphs to unexpected hurdles, Ben and Jim dive deep into the complexities of married life.

But it's not just about weathering storms; it's also about nurturing ourselves. Tune in as they discuss the importance of self-care within marriage, recognizing that prioritizing our well-being enhances our ability to support our partners and relationships.
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Episode Transcript

Jim (00:03):
Welcome to Real Men Hug, a podcast for men and the women
who love them.
I'm Jim.

Ben (00:09):
And I'm Ben.

Jim (00:11):
Welcome to the show!

Ben (00:17):
We are going to be talking about marriage.
Mawage.
The thing that brings ustogether.
That's Princess Bride, right?

Jim (00:26):
It is Princess Bride.
Such a good movie.
We're going to be talking aboutmarriage today.
We have talked a lot aboutourselves and our journey, and
obviously, Getting married hasbeen part of that, but we
thought we were long overdue totalk about that topic and our
experience.
Cause we both been married for ahot minute.
Haven't we?

Ben (00:46):
It's true.

Jim (00:47):
We've both been married for 17 years.
Crazy.
17, yeah.
That's a long time.
Almost 20.

Ben (00:55):
It's crazy.

Jim (00:57):
Not that we have it all together.
Just like it's sort of the themeof this show.
Two guys who don't actually haveit together trying to tell you
our advice on how to do things.

Ben (01:09):
It's a lovely concept.
Isn't it Jim?

Jim (01:12):
if we were going to be sitting here saying that we have
all the answers figured out, Idon't think anybody would want
to listen to us.

Ben (01:17):
It's true.
People listen because well, theygo through a lot of the same
things in their lives andsomething that's helped me over
the years is just surroundingmyself with different voices.
And I think that's so important.
So I'm glad that we get to beamong the voices that you tune
into dear listener.

Jim (01:38):
For sure.
Sure.
But we can't get too far intothis episode without having a
little celebration, can we, Ben?

Ben (01:46):
Did you bring cake?

Jim (01:47):
No, but I did bring my special sound machine.
Bow, bow, bow, bow, bow, bow!

Ben (01:54):
Episode 10! We did it! That's crazy.

Jim (02:00):
10 episodes.
10 episodes of quality content.
But I'm excited to be here.
I, I mean, I knew that we weregonna record 10 episodes.
Oh, for sure.
I feel like we're both a littlemore comfortable behind the
microphone.

Ben (02:15):
Absolutely.

Jim (02:16):
This has been different for you though.
This is what, like your 17thpodcast that you've started now?

Ben (02:21):
I think the biggest thing that's different about Real Men
Hug is who I host it with.
On previous podcasts, it wastypically the relationship with
the co host formed because ofthe podcast.
Sure.
This is different because youand I go back 20 plus years and

(02:42):
To sit down with somebody thatI've known for that long and to,
like, pick up on and start doinglife together again.
That's a whole differentelement.
Yeah.
And in college, I will be honestand say, and I've told you
before, but in college, I wasenvious of you.

(03:02):
I wasn't successful in my socialcircle or whatever unless I was
on par with Jim Van Stensel andI always kind of felt like less
than and so there's beenrumblings of that but you and I
have experienced a ton ofhealing since then.
The fact that you and I havethat history just adds a

(03:25):
different element to therecording and podcasting
process.

Jim (03:32):
We're frenzies.
It's true.
Besties with testes.

Ben (03:37):
You are leaving that in, aren't you?

Jim (03:39):
Oh, dear.
Stream of thought consciousness.
This is why we don't go live,folks, because I say stuff like
that.
But just for posterity, I'mgoing to leave it in this time.
So 10 episodes, it seems likewe, we have to have a home run
and, what's more interesting fora lot of people than talking

(03:59):
about marriage and what thatmeans to us.
You'll hear a little bit moreabout our relationship with our
wives.
So.
I should have posted thatearlier, but you guys were great
on top of it.
Like a bunch of people postedadvice about marriage and we
really appreciate that.
So shout out on the show.
Shout out guys.

(04:20):
I just want to say we reallyappreciate all of you who
engaged.
I saw Chris tell on there fromtwisted tales had posted
something, uh, DarrylMcCullough, sorry, if I
butchered your last name,Darryl, Mike Vandrie, friend to
both of us, uh, Emily Gillette,who I know from my cornerstone

(04:40):
days working there.
So, and also Hannah Wheeler, mysister in law also posted on
there.
So we really appreciate yourthoughts.
Did any one of those jump out toyou when you were looking at
those comments that you werelike, that's a good one.

Ben (04:54):
Darryl was hysterical.

Jim (04:57):
Darryl, just the self deprecating.
No matter how intelligent I get,I will always be wrong.

Ben (05:05):
I mean, I can see the humor in that, but it also kind of
made my heart hurt a little bit.
Like that's, is that genuinelyhow you feel?

Jim (05:16):
Well, Darryl is a psychotherapist from looking at
his profile and he's alsomarried with six kids.
So he must be doing somethingright.
No kidding.
So, Daryl, that one did make melaugh.
I, I had said something about,you know, recognizing that the
relationship is more importantthan being right.
That's, I think, the meat andpotatoes of he, I know, is just

(05:38):
being cheeky, but there issomething to be said about that.
Honestly, that's kind of myfirst point.
Like, the relationship is moreimportant than being right.
Being right.
So this, the more, you know,thought brought to you by Daryl.

Ben (05:52):
Yes.
You can be right or you can bein a relationship.

Jim (05:58):
Yeah.
So my wonderful wife, Melissa,fantastic, amazing woman.
I am better at arguing than mywife.
If I want to, she'll belistening to this rolling her
eyes.
I know you are right now, but ifI really want to win an
argument, I absolutely can, butI have guaranteed lost by simply

(06:24):
trying to win that argumentbecause I don't know, you can
take shortcuts or cheat orwhatever, like that's just sort
of our personalities andMelissa.
Especially when she's frustratedabout something struggles to put
words to thought.
And that's actually one of thereasons why she appreciates me

(06:47):
because when she's feelingreally upset or sad, sometimes I
can put words to what she'sthinking that will actually help
crystallize her thoughts.
And it's like, yes, that is whatI was trying to say.
Thank you.
Even when, even when we're.
upset, I'm still on her team.

(07:07):
Cause it's not really aboutwinning or losing.
Right.
It's about trying to get to apoint where you're both on the
same page.
Yes, really.

Ben (07:15):
In that effort to be on the same page, do you think it's
possible to be a coupleparagraphs ahead of the other
person?
And if so, is that okay?

Jim (07:25):
Yeah.
I mean, It's definitely a dancethat you have to do, and that
happens a lot, I think, in ourconversations where I think the
thing is the person who broughtup the argument sometimes has
had a much longer time to thinkabout that thing, and your
spouse might have Eventually beon the same page as you, they

(07:48):
just need a minute to process.
Cause you've already beenthinking about this for the last
two hours or three weeks orthree years,

Ben (07:56):
right?
Yeah.
They need time to catch up.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And when it comes to actualreading, I am a slow reader.
I would rather just listen to anaudio book.
Whereas my wife can sit downwith a book and be done in like
a day and I'm like, how did youread so much so quickly?
I think it's the same inmarriage too.

(08:19):
We can both be on the same page.
It's not like we're on the exactsame line of that page.
We're still on the same page andthat's okay if we're not
necessarily, you know, to theword on the page.
Honestly, even if we are likewithin the same chapter, yeah, I
think it's okay.

(08:39):
But if we are.
You know, if it's going beyondthat in our relationship and
it's feeling like we're not evenin the same chapter or we're not
even in the same book, that'sprobably a good indicator that
maybe we should do some checkingin on things.

Jim (08:56):
I agree with the analogy, but give me an example because
that's, that's so vague thatlike, what would be an example
of not even being in the samechapter?

Ben (09:04):
Let's say the wife is feeling like she wants to stay
at home with her kids.
And she's had her hard on that,but she's also for the last.
Period of time been working andnow she's at this point of
wanting to be at home with thekids.
Sure.
But the husband is approachingthis from the perspective of,

(09:27):
well, we have been reliant ontwo incomes.
Now we're only going to haveone.
I don't think that's a goodidea.
They're no longer in the samechapter.

Jim (09:37):
Sure.
Yeah, that makes sense.

Ben (09:39):
So,

Jim (09:40):
so some of those big picture things in your marriage,
cause little things like, Idon't know where you're going to
go to eat if you decide thatyou're going to go somewhere,
you know, honestly, you couldeven just go to two different
places, like pick up Taco Belland Jimmy John's because one of
you wants one and one wants theother.
Yup.
It's okay to do that when youreally can't reach a decision,

(10:01):
but when it really matters,then.
I think you need to be on thesame page.

Ben (10:06):
Definitely.
How does it work with the wholefood in your relationship with
Melissa?
In my context with Andi,whenever we go out to eat, I
just let her choose.
Because, frankly, I'm prettymuch happy with whatever.
I'm not terribly picky.
I'll always find something toeat.

(10:27):
Food is good regardless of whereit comes from.
So, I just let her pick.

Jim (10:33):
Yeah, I think we have a little bit of a different
relationship just because thisis going to be a whole different
episode, but the mental loadthing, my, my wife doesn't
always want to pick, she mightveto my first seven choices.
Yes, but she doesn't want tohave the burden of being the one

(10:55):
who always has to pick in fact,it's the opposite I think a lot
of times she just wants me totell her where she Wants to go

Ben (11:04):
Interesting.
Yeah, there's a number of thingsin your marriage that are kind
of flip flopped in my marriage

Jim (11:11):
Not just flip flop, but yeah, you and I have different
dynamics in our relation.
Definitely.
Absolutely.
And I think from the outsidelooking in, some people might
look at my marriage and think itwas like deeply.
Fundamentally broken

Ben (11:28):
because Jim picks where you go for dinner

Jim (11:30):
just because of the way that we do things and we operate
like I remember I bought my wifea vacuum for her birthday and.
So many people were like, thatis a terrible gift.
How on earth could you possiblybuy your wife an appliance for

(11:54):
her birthday?
You know, something like, Oh, goand clean the house kind of
thing.
But I'm like, no, no, no, no,no.
You don't understand my wife.
Likes the order of a clean houseand we have to buy a vacuum
because our old one broke, butbecause we don't have a ton of

(12:16):
money, normally we wouldn't buya nice vacuum.
We would just buy the ho hum,whatever gets the job

Ben (12:24):
Hoover, not the Dyson.

Jim (12:26):
Exactly.
And so allowing her to.
Pick the vacuum.
That is her ideal vacuum.
And the gift was really gettingthe vacuum that she wanted.
Without the guilt that wouldhave otherwise come from
spending more on that product.
So in our marriage, she wasactually super excited about the

(12:50):
fact that her gift was a vacuum.
Whereas in another relationship,that would be grounds for
divorce.
Yeah, right?
How dare you buy me a vacuum?
It's gotta be Chocolate andjewelry, or I don't know what it
is, but that works for us.

Ben (13:06):
Yes.
I pointed out some of thedifferences that I see in your
marriage and my marriage.
And the more I think about it,it's really just recently within
the last.
Two or three years that thingshave kind of flipped in our
marriage.
When you talk about mental loadand how it's difficult for

(13:28):
Melissa to pick because of thatmental load, I will be very
honest and say that for.
The majority of our marriage,Andi has carried way more of the
mental load than she ever shouldhave.
And it's something that I don'tfeel great about.

(13:49):
There's nothing I can do to goback and change it.
But yeah, like, she carried somuch of the day to day
functioning of our family.
Primarily because I was Onlyfunctional outside of the house.
And I would come home from workand just be done.

(14:12):
both of my kids can remember aseason in life where dad just
would sit in the living room inthe dark cause I was just
overwhelmed and.
I couldn't, I couldn't doanything else.
Like my reserves were gone.
I did not help around the house.
Like I should have, it wouldtake a colossal bit of

(14:34):
motivation for me to doanything.
And so now people look at ourmarriage and they see that I'm
the one who cooks and does allthe food prep and whatnot.
I do laundry, like there's a lotof things that I'm doing now.
And I think a big reason forthat is.
For so long, I didn't, and I'mjust trying to share the load a

(14:58):
little bit better.

Jim (14:58):
Yeah.
So for those of you not familiarwith mental load, it's not just
housework, right?
Like the whole point of mentalload is a lot of times in, in.
Our culture in a lot ofmarriages, women have a tendency
to bear the brunt of the mentalload when it comes to school
functions.
Is dad even checking thoseemails that are hitting his

(15:20):
phone?
Or are you just assuming thatmom signed up for the trip and
made sure that all of theirstuff was ready for, The next
day you're paying attention tothat calendar.
You're responding to the emails.
You're the one who sets out thesnow clothes in winter, every,
all those little things, evenlike I'll say in my own

(15:41):
marriage, my mom has a birthdaycoming up and my wife planned a
lunch and like picked out a giftand did all of this stuff.
We talked about it, but she didall of those things.
Wow.
And.
Now, she did ask me and I couldhave done some of those things,
but that's kind of some of thatmental load that I'm talking

(16:03):
about is it's the assumptionthat The woman's going to take
care of it, right?
That's what that mental load isconstantly having to worry about
whether or not you're going todo something.
Or even another example would belike what's for dinner.
So now again, it's theassumption that she's the one

(16:23):
who has to think about it.
She's the one who has to prepit.
She's the one who has to set itout, make all of those
decisions.
And she was the one who had towrite out the grocery list, pick
out the ingredients from thestore, bring them back, unload
them all.
All you did was go to work andtake off your shoes and sit on
the couch and, Oh, I've had sucha tough day.

(16:43):
Oh, really?
Your wife hasn't like,especially, I'm sorry, but you
have kids like, so there's thatburden.
So that's a whole differentepisode, but that's what we mean
when we say mental load.

Ben (16:54):
And in my case, things shifted for me when I looked at
that mental load of all thethings that she was managing for
me, for the kids.
And I just started to thinkabout it from the perspective
of, I always say that my familyis the most important to me.
Yeah.
And if that's true, then ifthere's something happening in

(17:17):
my son's life at school, or mydaughter's life at church or
school, or wherever it may be,or she's part of a dance club,
then I better know what's goingon.
Like if that person is genuinelyimportant to me, then I should
know.
It's important for me to be partof their life and be aware of

(17:38):
what's happening in their lives.
And not only should I know, butI should be actively involved in
their day to day lives.
It shouldn't all just go to mywife.
So that was a big changing pointfor me of just, taking stock
and, and holding my commitmentto family above all, like, well,

(17:59):
what does that mean?
And in practice, does that meanjust letting Andi handle all of
these things?
No, that's not what that lookslike.
So now.
We share that load.
If a teacher emails us, it goesto both of our phones, and
typically I'm the one whoresponds.

(18:21):
I tend to do better with writtenword, and so I just craft an
email.
I leave it in the drafts folder.
I send a text to my wife.
And I say, if that looks good,feel free to hit send.
And that's one less thing thatshe has to worry about because I
took care of it for her.
So I'm intentionally looking foropportunities to make good on my

(18:44):
commitment that family comesfirst.
And if that's the case, then I'mgoing to involve myself.
Any chance that I can,

Jim (18:52):
you hit it.
You just said that wordcommitment, right?
We were talking off air.
The number one cited reason fordivorce.
The CDC does this big study iscommitment.
It's lack of commitment.
And when I say that, thatdoesn't even include infidelity.
Wow.
It's commitment.
Now, infidelity can be the strawthat breaks the camel's back for

(19:14):
sure.
But a lack of commitment in thatrelationship.
So when you have that guy thatjust, or gal, we're, we're
picking on the guys here.
I hope you all know that we'redoing that as a generalization.
Of course, sometimes the shoe ison the other foot.
But statistically it's thatcommitment where when somebody
comes home and they're justchecked out and I already had my

(19:36):
workday, I don't care.
I'm not doing any part of it.
You're losing a piece of thatspouse.
Because all they hear is thatyou don't care and that you're
more important than them.
When what I'm hearing you say isyou have chosen to make your
spouse more important than youand your relationship.

Ben (19:55):
And my kids.
Yeah.
I mean, family.
That's what you do for family.
That's a statement that I'veheard often.
I think I learned it from theshow This Is Us.
Love that show if you haven'tseen any episodes go check it
out, but they had the saying onthat show you do for fam You do

(20:16):
for family and it's just alwaysstuck with me and it sums up
very well like it's a verypoorly worded sentence you do
for family, but For me thosefour words have really become
pivotal because if family is asImportant to me as I say it is

(20:40):
then that means It's going totake precedence over what I want
for myself.
It's commitment, it's choosingto put the needs of my wife and
the needs of my kids as moreimportant than mine.
And for a long time, I reallystruggled with that.

Jim (20:59):
You said that word to choosing.
That's huge for me as well.
I have never liked that phrasefalling out of love because to
me that implies that you canfall in love in the first place.
And I, I'm sorry if that's yourphilosophy.
If you had the doe eyes and fellin love with somebody.
Fine.

(21:19):
Still use the phrase it's cutesyand it's culturally accepted,
but at the heart of it, fall inlove really just means that like
your pheromones kicked in andyou found yourself sexually
attracted to somebody, or maybeeven just relationally attract
something about them, drew youto them.
But at the end of the day,nobody falls in love.

(21:40):
And if you do, that's how youfell out of it because,

Ben (21:44):
Oh, that's good.

Jim (21:45):
You choose love, right?
My marriage has not all beenamazing.
We have gone through some reallydifficult seasons.
If my soul impetus for being ina marriage was whether or not I
liked my wife, even I would nolonger be married.

Ben (22:07):
Yeah.

Jim (22:08):
There was probably, I don't want to put a, Number on it, but
I will say it was in the monthsto going past a year period of
my life where I honestly didn'teven really like my wife.
And so to say that it has to beabout feelings, I just think.

(22:29):
Is a bunch of bull crap.

Ben (22:31):
Yeah

Jim (22:31):
I proved during that timeframe more than any other in
my marriage that I loved mywife.
I don't like what you're doing.
I don't like how you're makingme feel, but I am committed to
this relationship.
I'm committed to you in sicknessand in health, no matter what.
I'm sticking by your side.

(22:53):
Now, I do not say that naively.
Some of you listeners I knowhave either gone through a
divorce, you've been in anabusive relationship, or on the
other end of it, you reallydesperately want to be married
and it just hasn't worked outfor you.
Please hear me that I'm nottrying to exclude anyone in
that.
I came very close to becomingdivorced myself.

(23:15):
That was a thought that I thinkmy wife and I both Actively kind
of, we're like, it's just not anoption.
That's always been sort of thephilosophy.
It's not an option, but that'snot naive enough to assume that
if it would have gotten like 5percent worse, I don't know if
I'd be able to talk to you as acurrently married man about
this, but at the end of the day,the reason I am still married is

(23:38):
because I'm committed to mywife, even when things got rough

Ben (23:43):
yeah

Jim (23:45):
that makes a difference.
So I guess I'll share that storysince now you're probably all
curious, but we went through areally tough stage in our life
where I, it actually went backto my cornerstone days.
You remember me sharing thatstory?
The, the higher education placethat I worked, I was let go

(24:08):
because of budget I lost notonly my job, but I lost my
house.
I lost my community, and I endedup getting transplanted all the
way over to South Carolina fromMichigan.
So everything that I knew andloved, just up in smoke.
But on top of that, we were alsonew parents.

(24:30):
My wife had a very difficultpregnancy.
She almost died with our secondkid.
She had extreme postpartumdepression.
And all of those things werehitting her and it was just
causing to her to implode.
And I'm trying to manage theloss of identity that came with

(24:52):
losing my job.
I felt like I couldn't providefor my family.
It was a huge hit to my, notonly my pride, but my identity.
And I, I just felt.
Like a broken husk of a man.
naturally I was a chipper personaround my wife.
You know, I was perfect in thatrelationship, no, I was, I was

(25:14):
broken and, and short and I, Iwasn't the same happy go lucky
guy that my wife married.
So I was miserable.
She was miserable and we wereboth feeding off of each
other's.
Negative energy, It really was,and again, not to attribute any
sort of blame, but like for mywife, a big part of her

(25:35):
brokenness was around the kidsand trying to reconcile.
Society telling her that she'ssupposed to be super excited
about being a mom.
And it just felt like it wassucking the life out of her.
She would come back fromwherever she was coming from,
whether it was work or the storeor whatever, and she would sit

(25:57):
in the driveway with her handson the steering wheel.
Not wanting to go inside becauseshe didn't want to have to deal
with the kids and I would comeback from home Sit in the car
with my hands on the steeringwheel Not wanting to go inside
because I didn't want to have todeal with my wife again not

(26:17):
saying that I was a bastion ofof All the right things in
marriage.
I was a miserable person to bemarried to I absolutely was, but
my wife was so mean to me duringthat phase.
She made me feel awful and herresponses were just absolutely

(26:40):
killing me.
And as you can imagine, our sexlife during that time was almost
non existent.
And so I also was dealing with alot of this.
pent up, like, what do I do withall of this?
And so it also, from a chemicalstandpoint was just driving me

(27:00):
nuts.
I, of course, naturally was veryeven keeled in my conversations
with my wife about thatperfectly reasonable and
definitely not irritable oraccusatory or throw under the
bussery at all with my wife.

Ben (27:19):
Not in the slightest.

Jim (27:20):
Which as you can imagine, didn't exactly help our sexual
relationship get any better.
It just made it worse.
And I remember there was aperiod in our relationship where
we didn't touch for Over amonth.
Wow.

(27:40):
Like not even grazing skintouch.
No hug, no hand holding.
And I know this because we wouldgo really long periods of time.
A week or two might go by.
And the only time we ever hadphysical contact was when I
initiated it.
Naturally, the, the right thingto do in that relationship is to

(28:03):
test your wife and see how longshe will go.
That's the healthy thing to do,right?
In a relationship,

Ben (28:10):
if you're passive aggressive

Jim (28:12):
is to say, Hey, what if I just don't touch my wife and see
how long it goes and then I canwave it in front of her face
that it took so long for us totouch.
That seems like the healthybalanced.
Right?

Ben (28:24):
Totally healthy.

Jim (28:25):
Was that the right thing to do?
No.
No.
It was terrible, but that's theheadspace that I was in, that I
was like, I'm going to prove tomy wife how terrible she's being
to me by not, by not touchingher.

Ben (28:39):
And in that moment, it likely felt like the right thing
to do.
You were so stressed you chosein that moment.
I don't know.
What do you think that was?
Was that a fighting response orwas it like a, a freeze?

Jim (28:53):
I don't think I Ever did anything intentionally to hurt
my wife.
I know that that seemscontradictory to what I just
said.
It's not because it's where myhead was.
It wasn't, I'm not going totouch my wife to hurt her.
I'm not kidding you at the time,it seemed like a good idea.
She's not getting it.

(29:13):
Cause I keep saying, I needhugs.
It's important for me.
When I come home from work, Ireally need you to hug me.
It's really important for me.
And so in my broken head,because that wasn't happening, I
thought, I'm going to show her,this is how long we went without
being touched when I wasn't theone who initiated it.
So it wasn't, Oh, I'm going tohurt you and not touch you.

(29:34):
It was a, Hey, let me prove toyou.
If I don't initiate it, we wenta whole month.
And of course, naturally thatwent over super well with my
wife.
Cause it's like, it was, I thinkit hadn't ended up being like
five or six weeks.
The best time to also say thatis when your wife finally
touches you.
And then you're like, that's thefirst time you've touched me.

(29:57):
In five weeks, three days andfour, I didn't like you've been
counting.
I literally had been countinghow long it had been, not, not
to the hour, but isn't thatterrible?
Like I was a terrible person andso was she, we were terrible for
at each other.

Ben (30:12):
I struggle with that because you were intentionally,
I was trying to be terrible.
In a stress response, it couldeasily be perceived as fighting.
But I think honestly, it wasjust more of a flight response.
Like you did not have theability to do anything more than
that.
And so you just kind of let itgo.

(30:34):
It's a flight thing.
I'm not going to fight this.
I'm just going to let it be,let's just kind of let go and
see what happens.

Jim (30:41):
In my opinion, that was our biggest fight that we ever had,
because it was really the onlytime where I went to bed at the
end of the day and I was justlike, I am pissed and I don't
know how to fix it.

Ben (30:57):
Did your wife have any indication that you were pissed?

Jim (31:00):
She knew.
This couldn't have been the sameday, because at this point, I
think we had resolved it, but ithad been a point of contention.
She was trying to survivepostpartum depression and
everything that that meant.
And uh, I was just way toofocused on this, the lack of
sexuality and, and honestly,more importantly, even just

(31:22):
physical touch in general, sexwas part of it.
But that physical touch I was solonging for and I made it so
much about that.
I didn't see like, okay, why isphysical touch an issue in our
relationship right now?
I wasn't seeing her need in thatbecause I had such a big need
that wasn't doing that myself.

Ben (31:42):
Yup.

Jim (31:43):
Yup.
Yup.
And so I.
In spite of hindsight, howterrible it sounds, both of us,
honestly, we're trying ourhardest to be good partners to
each other.
We just really failed miserably.
We made bad decisions along theway.
I don't even want to say wedidn't communicate well.

(32:03):
We were trying to communicate.
We were just so broken and thatneed wasn't there and we just
had to work through it, but Iremember laying in bed and.
It was like, we can't resolvethis argument.
And so I was like, you knowwhat, I'm just going to lightly
scratch her back to make herfeel better.

(32:23):
And she said, I don't.
Want to be touched right now,and I was just like fine and I
turned over and then I was justlike I'm done not not from a
Divorce, like let's get divorcedin a point But more of like you
said that flight like I amtrying really hard to do the

(32:46):
right thing And I'm only beingmet with vitriol.
Yeah, I am done trying.
Yeah, and I I don't know what todo, it was this weird dichotomy
of I'm done trying and also I'mnot going to quit.
I don't know what I'm going todo, but I am committed to this
relationship, dammit, and comehell or high water, I am

(33:10):
committed to you.
Even when you treat me likethis, I am here.
I don't remember if we had somepenultimate conversation that
finally turned the ship around,but it was simply the.
Undying dedication to each otherin spite of the hurt, especially
because I feel like we both dida pretty good job of not

(33:32):
intentionally hurting eachother.

Ben (33:34):
Yes.

Jim (33:35):
I'm really fortunate to have a spouse.
In her brokenness Still triedher best It just so happened in
that season I could only giveabout 10 percent and my wife
could only give about less thana percent, right?
We didn't hit a hundred You Wejust had to survive the season

(33:56):
we were in,

Ben (33:57):
but you survived and you're still here to talk about it.
And our marriage is strongerthan it's ever been.
That's awesome.

Jim (34:06):
I share that story to let you know that it's not like we
were gifted this fairy talemarriage.
I met the perfect person.
I'm just so.
Lucky to have the spouse that Ihave.
And that's the only reasonbecause we both have this
philosophy of marriage that ifeverybody else had, then they

(34:28):
would, they would have asuccessful marriage too.
That's not it.
Like we've been through toughstuff.
We're both fundamentally brokenpeople.
I share all of that because it'snot easy.
And I know for you too, Ben,it's not like you were just
gifted this fairy tale life andthat's why you've had.
A successful marriage.

(34:49):
You guys have been through someterrible stuff, some earth
shattering.
We were talking about this offair.
Both of us, I think, have hadissues come up in our marriage
that given two different peoplewould have absolutely shattered

(35:09):
their marriage apart.

Ben (35:10):
Absolutely.
I would say the majority ofcouples, when they get married,
having kids is generally part ofthe conversation and life plan
and everything else.
In our case, we got married andwe had intended to start having

(35:31):
kids after two years ofmarriage.
but things aren't happening.
And it's been like a period ofmonths that we've, you know,
paid attention to the cycles anddone all of the calendar work
and the tracking and, and thetiming and nothing's happening.
And so we're just like, Hmm,maybe we should get this checked

(35:53):
out.
And so we did.
And.
Both of us had complicationsthat caused us to not be able to
conceive and have childrennaturally.
That was a huge blow.
There are couples that havesplit because of infertility.
It's a very, very difficultthing to navigate and there's so

(36:21):
much hurt that's tied to it.
Especially when all of yourfriends are now having children
and we can't.
And especially for the wife whogets invited to all the baby
showers and it's just like aconstant reminder of this is
something that I can't haveright now.
That brings with it A hugeamount of isolation, a huge

(36:48):
amount of feeling less than orincompatible with your dreams
for the future.
Sure.
We came to a point where we hadto find new dreams because this
dream of having children is nolonger on the table.
Yeah.
And that was brutal.

(37:08):
interestingly, before we gotmarried, we had each said to
each other that we'd like toadopt someday.
Well, in some cosmic sense ofhumor, the world handed us that
set of circumstances and it'slike, make good on your word.
You said you wanted to adopt.
Well, here you go.

Jim (37:29):
Going to force it down your throat.
Yeah.

Ben (37:31):
And at the time I was making barely any money.
My wife was not making a ton ofmoney.
We didn't have the healthinsurance that would cover.
Things like in vitro, we didn'thave the resources to go down
that road.
Unfortunately, time went by andit just was not a possibility

(37:54):
financially or otherwise.
We had to alter.
Our dreams.
that can threaten a marriage forsure.
Either one of us could havesaid, you know what, I'm going
to find a partner where.
This isn't as much of an issueand we'll just hedge our bets
that it could work with somebodyelse.

(38:14):
Thankfully we rebounded and weadjusted our dreams for our
family and our dreams for whatthe future would look like.
Andi was the only one braveenough to give voice to that
early on like well If you wantto have kids naturally, I don't
know if I'm the one to do thatfor you.
That's not even crossed my mind.

(38:35):
I'm in this for life, regardlessof whether or not we can have
biological children.

Jim (38:41):
That is a deal breaker for some people.
It is.
I know people personally thatthat is what ended their
marriage.
Yeah.
They found out they couldn'thave kids.

Ben (38:50):
Yeah.
And so that was blow number one.
And that was a pretty big blow,but we recovered well because
it's not like I could look ather and say, it's all your
fault.
She couldn't look at me and say,it's all your fault.

Jim (39:04):
Yeah, that's true.

Ben (39:06):
In the wild.
Wisdom of whoever's pulling thestrings behind the curtain.
The fact that both of us hadcomplications is just wild.
And it saved our marriage in aweird way because we couldn't be
bitter towards each otherbecause it was both of us.

(39:27):
And so instead of becomingbitter and angry that the other
person couldn't take part inthat natural.
Birthing of a family.
We face that together and itbrought us closer together.
And so I think with that as ourfoundation of early in our
marriage, you know, two yearsin, and we learned that about

(39:49):
ourselves, that was like.
A moment in time where we couldlay the foundation for how we
were going to make it throughtough times because the tough
times didn't stop.
we've talked at length about thelosses that I endured,
especially within like a twoyear span of time, loss of my

(40:11):
job, loss of a student in myyouth group that not only I had
grown close to, but Andi did aswell.
Losing the foster kids who hadbecome enmeshed in our family.
I don't have statistics, but Ihave stories of people who
walked through Similar seasonsof loss.

(40:33):
Yeah, and their marriage justcouldn't survive because it's so
much It's just too much like itwas too heavy for them to bear.
Yet in my case, all of thoselosses, all of those difficult
things, yes, they were heavy.
Yes.
I think we did come close totoppling.

(40:56):
Yeah.
At a few points.
Whether it's infertility or notlike each of us come to the
table with a certain level ofbroken.
Marriage is about Accepting thatbrokenness and choosing to work
together even in the midst ofthings that are broken because
that's what commitment is.

(41:17):
It's, it's choosing to show upfor that person even if life is
not the ideal that you had.
Yes.

Jim (41:26):
And I think that there's a big part of it that you build
trust over time.
Some people maybe get there alittle bit quicker than others.
Yes.
I don't know.
It took me a long time, I think,to fully trust my wife to the
degree that I do today, I thinkthat what most people would

(41:46):
define as trust, I got thereimmediately, but that certain
level of recognizing thatsomebody is on your side, no
matter what.
That's a different level oftrust.

Ben (41:59):
For sure.

Jim (41:59):
There's something about knowing that, even if somebody
hurts your feelings, having thetrust in that person to know
that they didn't do itintentionally to hurt you.

Ben (42:09):
Yeah.

Jim (42:10):
This must be a miscommunication.
For me, it can be like, I betshe's got a migraine today that
can really set my wife off whereshe's not as patient.
Her words aren't as kind whenshe has a migraine, but now
we're so far down that path thateven like she recognizes that.
Like, I'm sorry, I know I'm notbeing my kindness today sort of

(42:33):
thing.
And I'm sure there are peoplethat are listening like, well,
that's great that you have aspouse that does that.
It is something that you bothhave to work towards building
that trust, and you also have tobe that person that doesn't
intentionally hurt your spousebecause you're building up
capital.

Ben (42:51):
Definitely.

Jim (42:52):
You're building up social capital in that relationship
when, when you've been throughthe terrible things that you and
I have both been through, andyou still come out on the end
with a spouse that loves you.
There's something so rich aboutthat relationship, that one that
hasn't faced trials.

(43:12):
You just have something specialthat, you know, that life of
privilege just doesn't have.

Ben (43:18):
Yes.
The trials are like the gluethat provides the.
Necessary bond to keep youtogether in that season.
I think for me, for us, almostthe harder part about marriage
is shifting out of that mindsetof shifting out of that, that

(43:41):
trauma bond, that bond of sharedpain, and being able to still be
on the same page when the woundisn't bleeding anymore.
And being on the same page withthings like aftercare, like a
thing that I struggle with evento this day.

(44:01):
in the midst of all of thoselosses, I did not take care of
myself.
I did the opposite.
I put on easily a hundred poundsbetween college and when I was
at my heaviest.
I didn't take care of myself.
I, I stopped caring about.
Me.
And I expected my wife to fillthat void, to care for me in a

(44:27):
way that I wasn't caring formyself.
That puts a very unhealthyexpectation on her.
The losses that we endured inthe past, we each have done a
ton of work on ourselves to healand to grow and to move beyond
those things.

(44:47):
It's difficult though, becauseI've become accustomed to taking
care of myself.
Yeah.
And so now the balance becomesone of, man, I really do look
out for my own interests a lotmore than perhaps.
My wife's yeah, and when Ievaluate options in life I'm at

(45:11):
a point where I pay moreattention to my needs than hers
and Recently in some of thestuff that we're going through
with one of our kids We just gotto a point where we weren't on
the same page and it was mainlybecause I was too wrapped up in
my own Needs in my own view ofthings, and I couldn't tolerate

(45:37):
her trying to help me see that,there's hope in this situation.
And I got mad at her because Ididn't feel like it was genuine
that she could be hopeful in themidst of all of this.
I couldn't even see from herperspective because I was so

(45:58):
wrapped up in my own needs andmy own wants.
I've become A selfish person insome regards.
Sometimes just the day to daydoing life together and always
having each other's bestinterests in mind is also a
challenge, and that's where I'mat right now.
Every day functioning as husbandand wife poses more of a threat

(46:23):
to our marriage than trials andlosses do yeah, because it's
just like a Balancing act thatshe does really well with but I
struggle.

Jim (46:34):
An analogy comes to mind the old, like the, in the
airplane, when those airbagsdrop down, you're supposed to
put your mask on first, asyou're sharing that story, I
think this old Ben was alwaystrying to help and do the right
thing, and in the process, hepasses out in the aisle because
he didn't get his own airbag on.
And finally you heard thosewords.

(46:54):
No, no, Ben, you need to putyour own airbag on first.
And so then you did that.
But then over time, not only didyou get the airbag, but you also
made sure that you had the DVDset up to watch and you had like
some snacks while people werepassing out around you.
So it was like this oversteer.
you do need self care.
But there are also other peoplewho need your help.

Ben (47:17):
Hit the nail on the head.
That's a great analogy.

Jim (47:20):
You're learning.
Okay.
I need to care for myselfbecause gaining 100 is not okay.
I need to care for myself.
And you rightly had a seasonwhere you focused on yourself.

Ben (47:32):
Definitely.

Jim (47:32):
But then once you start getting 100, 000.
Closer to that health at somepoint or another, you may have
gotten to a point where you'reeven more healthy now than any
other member in your family orat least a member in your
family.
So let's try to balance selfcare with helping other people
now too.

Ben (47:48):
Yes,

Jim (47:49):
that can be really tough.

Ben (47:50):
It is

Jim (47:50):
for sure.
In a marriage.
I, I feel that I know forMelissa and I, that's been a,
been a huge balance from day oneto that for me, I.
I always feel like I have to bethe strong one in the
relationship.
Anytime that I am broken, mywife is broken more.
And so it has always felt likeI've had to prioritize her in

(48:13):
that relationship.
And that has been a source ofbitterness for me over the
years.
How come I can't be the brokenone?
Like when I'm broken, I have togo and talk to a counselor.
But when you're broken, you cancome and talk to your husband.
It can be really frustrating forme, but I guess that's an
important point that I want tobring up too, is I think for me,
I had this notion that my, mygiftings were also my wife's

(48:36):
giftings.
She does not have the emotionalcapacity to deal with me in my
most broken.
When I'm going through a toughtime, she is super supportive.
She's there for me.
She does excellent.
But when I am fundamentallybroken.
Bleeding out level of broken.

(48:57):
She can't handle it.
It's too much for her and shehas to step away.
There is no level of brokenness.
As long as I'm in a healthyplace that my wife can be, that
I can't still be there for her.
But that's just who I am.
One of the big things in ourshow, you will hear us say
anything and everything, butthere always has to be a reason
for it.

(49:17):
Just to provide a list of howbroken my wife's life has been,
doesn't seem like the rightreason.
Right.
But you will have to believe mewhen I say my wife has endured
more than I probably ever will.

Ben (49:30):
Yeah.
I can say the same about Andi.

Jim (49:33):
She is stronger than I am.
There's a difference between hercapacity to endure what is
thrown at her and her capacityto be able to deal with the
stuff that I also am enduring.
And I think that's just apersonality difference between
my wife and I.
I don't, I'm sure gender doeshave something sometimes to do
with that.
There's certainly statisticallyyou could go into that, but

(49:55):
speaking to our relationship, mywife is a strong, powerful,
independent woman.

Ben (50:00):
As is mine for similar reasons.

Jim (50:02):
But she deeply needs me.
Yeah.
She married me because I am hersafe space.

Ben (50:09):
It's like this paradox.
It's so interesting that despitethe utter terribleness that.
Our wives endured before meetingus.
it strikes me as odd that evenwith that being the case,
somehow my stuff, which is.

(50:32):
Nowhere near what she'sexperienced in her life

Jim (50:36):
can be too, can be too overwhelming.
It just

Ben (50:38):
doesn't make sense in my brain.

Jim (50:40):
Yeah,

Ben (50:41):
but that's how it is.
And, and that's okay.

Jim (50:44):
I wonder if that's a trauma response to though, because
they've had to endure so much,they were drawn to emotionally
intelligent men who are going tobe there and support them Yeah.
Because we're their safe space,they don't know how to deal with
us.
When we're the broken ones inthat relationship, that's not a

(51:04):
selfish thing.
That's just, we're, we'refulfilling that need in their
lives.
That my wife will even say thatshe's like, I just don't even
know what to do.
And so I had to, To reorientmyself in the relationship, to
not be mad at my wife, that shecan't be everything for me,
there's things that she can doand there are things that she
can't and that that's okay.

(51:26):
Yeah.
I had to get over that.
I can talk about our darkestday, which I really do think it
was that I don't want to betouched right now that like that
whole argument.
Who that, that was the toughest,I think, place that we've been.
But when you ask my wife, likethe things that she remembers is

(51:50):
that I threw away her spatulaand that I didn't get her Jimmy
John's, those, those were thequintessential worst things that
I have done to her.

Ben (52:01):
And that was in the not touching phase.

Jim (52:03):
No, that was actually at the very beginning.
Both of those were at the verybeginning of our relationship.
And I share them because it'sfunny, but I think it goes back
to in a relationship.
You want to know that somebodyis thinking about you and that
they care about you and thestinking spatula.
Again, Jim sounds terrible whenhe's going to share this story,

(52:24):
but like we lived in like a 500square foot apartment.
We both had stuff that we weretrying to fit.
And so we had to make decisions.
So again, me and my infinitewisdom, I decided that we should
go through every single itemthat we own and have a
conversation about whether weactually needed, it or not.
Talk about a stressful thing todo right off the bat.

(52:45):
I was such an idiot.
I'm sorry that you don't eventry to defend me there.
She had like four spatulas andI'm like, what do you need?
Four spatulas for you?
One spatula.
Of course, I'm a bachelor, nevercooked anything in my life.
And she's like,

Ben (52:58):
I would agree with you back then.

Jim (53:01):
I would have agreed with you back then too, but she, and
she had a good reason.
It was the skinny spatula forwhen you're trying to flip.
Pancakes or whatever it is.
You don't want the fat thatyou're using for the hamburgers
and whatever, but she had beenso frustrated by me.
Like, okay, why do you needthis?
You?
Why do you need this thing?
Why do you need that?
She just said, sometimes youjust need more than one spatula.

(53:25):
And I was like, no, we'rethrowing it away.
Or given it away or whatever thecase may be.
And then like, of course, two orthree days later when her brain
catches up, no, the first timeshe made pancakes or whatever,
this is why I needed thatspatula.
So for Christmas that year inher stocking, I got her a thin
spatula.
And the same thing with JimmyJohn's.

(53:46):
She had been helping out withsome stuff with my staff all
day.
And I had a budget to orderlunch for everybody.
So I ordered and my wife was offdoing her own thing, but she was
helping and she was present.
I ordered Jimmy John's for mystaff and myself period.
Not for my wife.
I didn't get my wife, JimmyJohn's.

(54:08):
I'm sorry, Melissa, that Ididn't get you Jimmy John's.
I'm like, I will or no, it's toolate.
You didn't get me Jimmy John's.
I'm just mad.
Yeah.
Yup.
It sounds like stupid stuff, butit was because she felt like I
wasn't thinking of her in thosemoments.
And that's why she remembers thespatula and Jimmy John's.

Ben (54:28):
Absolutely.

Jim (54:29):
Do you have, do you have examples?

Ben (54:32):
And I wish you didn't ask because I can't remember the
specifics about that.
If

Jim (54:36):
I wouldn't have asked you, it would have just come up
naturally.

Ben (54:39):
No, it wouldn't.
Cause I'm sitting here trying toremember what our thing was
because we definitely had asimilar thing.
There was a certain restaurantor a certain place, I just can't
remember.

Jim (54:50):
I want you to edit the show later and try to use a
completely different voice andcadence to make it obvious that
you've added it.
Oh yes, Jim, I remember.
This was the thing.

Ben (55:02):
I've worked hard in life to not let things, grab hold.
Like unnecessary things.
Like I just don't have theenergy or, bandwidth to hold
grudges.
And so I really try to just letgo of some of that small stuff.
So I can't even think of it.

(55:23):
And I think it's probably just,you know, I don't give it a lot
of thought.
Much anymore and so it justslips my mind, but yes, we've
definitely had those momentswhere I was not thinking of her
and Overlooked an opportunity tomeet a need and she saw it and
she was frustrated and out ofher frustration She let me know

(55:47):
I can't tell you the specifics,but it's happened and it'll
happen again

Jim (55:53):
Do you have advice for somebody who is in a marriage
right now where they are kind ofat that point where I'm just
picturing somebody hands on thesteering wheel.
I don't want to go inside andhave to deal with my wife.
What advice would you give?
To that listener that's goingthrough that right now.

Ben (56:17):
The first thing that comes to mind is just pause for a
second, take a minute and thinkabout the things that initially
drew you to your spouse.
What are those things thatgrabbed your attention that
caused you to want to pursue himor her?
What is it about them that drewyou to them?

(56:40):
And then once you've identifiedthat.
Capitalize on it, look for it,cling to those moments.
Let that be the thing that likegives you hope.
The thing that drew you to thisperson, it's still there.
Perhaps because you've beenfocused on your own needs or
because there's a situation thatis causing an incredible amount

(57:05):
of stress on your marriage thatboth of you can't see those
things.
For me, it's funny.
In our.
Relationship.
We call it the, the plaid pants.
that's basically my way ofsumming up what attracted me to
my wife.
It was plaid pants.
Cause the first time I met her,she wore these plaid pants and

(57:31):
plaid was not really in style tomy knowledge.
And yet she wore them and sherocked them.
Like she looked so good in them.
I started the conversation bysaying, I like your pants.
And then I bought her a littleCaesar's pizza because I was a
college student and broke.
And that's how we dominoes.

(57:52):
And that's how our relationshipstarted in the early days.
I was attracted to her uncannynot only fashion, but just, she
was okay with not being.
In style with everybody else.
Like, she was okay with standingout.
And I've always gone back tothat.

(58:14):
Because that's me.
I find in her, this shared,We're gonna march to our own
drum beat.
We're gonna do thingsdifferently in life.
We're gonna adopt kids, we'renot going to have kids
naturally, we have just chosento do life different together.
And that's what I go back to inmy moments where I'm struggling.

(58:39):
So to the person who may besitting in their car, not
wanting to go inside, look forthat one thing.
What is it about your spousethat drew you to them?
And once you've identified that,how can you make that relevant
today?

Jim (58:58):
Yeah, I'm going to take it one step farther for, for the
person who hears Ben's adviceand thinks, I don't like
anything about my spouseanymore.
If, if you're that far gone, Ithink you might have a decision
to make.
Honestly, like, is, is thisperson on your side,

Ben (59:16):
right?

Jim (59:16):
If they're still on your side and they're willing to
fight for you, then, Keep onfighting.
If not, again, you have thatdecision.
Either you need to find somegood hobbies and have life
outside of just that person andbe one of those.
What did our friends say?
It's something like, okay, soabout 50 percent of people get
divorced and then another 25 ontop of it.

(59:37):
Just kind of live together.

Ben (59:38):
Yeah, coexist.

Jim (59:39):
You can do that.
If you think you can Be happy inthat environment and, and kind
of find your own life and youjust sort of are roommates for
lack of a better, right?
But I want something more thanthat in my relationship.
And so if you find yourself atthat point, the only thing that
you can change is yourself.

(01:00:01):
Mm-Hmm You can't change yourspouse.
You can't change what happenedin the past.
You can't change what you saidor what happened.
All you can change is yourselfand for me.
I think it sometimes is justfake it till you make it.
If you could go back in time asif none of this stuff happened,

(01:00:21):
knowing what you know now, couldyou reset your marriage and be
able to grow from that point?
Maybe.
That's the other thing.
I hope you have a spouse that iswilling to do marital counseling
with you.
This is the sign that you'relistening to this.
If you're not doing that maritalcounseling and if your spouse
won't go, you go.

(01:00:43):
Cause again, you can't changeyour spouse, but you can change
yourself and you can talkthrough your frustrations.
Try to be the best person youcan for your spouse.
And it's not, it's not fair iswhat it comes down to.
You're, you're going to give ityour all.
You're a hundred percent.
And that spouse is still goingto treat you poorly and they're

(01:01:04):
still going to be short with youand ignore you and not care
about you.
But I hope, I hope over timewhen they see that change in
you, that they start realizing,Oh, because the thing is it is
cyclical to you're being kind ofnasty to them too, in some way,
probably It's kind of bothpeople that are contributing to

(01:01:28):
it.
And so what can you do to remindthat person like Ben said of
remind them of the person thatyou are, put on those plaid
pants so that they remember theperson that they married and
sometimes just get away from theproblem.
Like if you have the money to goon a vacation.
Don't fight about the stuff.

(01:01:49):
And if sex is an issue, likewe're not doing that this
vacation, this vacation is aboutreconnecting about an oops, if
it ends up happening.
Oh no.
But that's not what thatvacation is about is to
reconnect and to just existwithout having the fight about
whatever that big issue isreminding each other why you
love each other.

(01:02:09):
I think most marriages, nomatter how broken they are, I
was man, pretty stinking closeand.
To be able to turn around and beat the healthy state that our
marriage is like I, that is mydesire for you listening to this
right now in that toughmarriage, my deep desire for you
is that you're able to take thatbroken marriage and even if

(01:02:33):
you're the one who does it, dangit.
By sheer power of will, try, tryyour hardest, but also don't
beat yourself up.
You can only do your best andit's the situation you're in.
You got to cut yourself someslack.
Give yourself some grace.
You're doing your best.
You're showing up every day.

(01:02:53):
Sometimes just getting up andgetting out of bed and Taking a
shower is about all you can do.
Celebrate that.

Ben (01:03:01):
Yeah.
One other piece of advice that Iwould give, and I'm hesitant to
give it because it seems to becounterintuitive, but I'll say
it anyway, if you are strugglingto go inside and to be with that
person, just take a break.
And I'm not saying take a breakand go find a different partner.

(01:03:24):
No, I'm saying take a break.
And in the context of Andi andI,, it was something that one of
her best friends had recommendedto her when we were going
through that season of loss.
She was like, for the sake ofyour marriage and for the sake
of your sanity, you each justneed to take 24 hours where you

(01:03:47):
can just focus on yourself.
Yeah.
Take a 24 hour break.
For Andi and I, that looked likeeither we would book a hotel
room, or we would stay at afriend's house, and we would
just take a break.
And we wouldn't, do anythingduring that break to work on
things.
Just let all striving cease, andjust breathe.

(01:04:11):
Yeah.
And that honestly has been sohelpful in our marriage.
Very rarely do I need to take abreak from my wife, because
she's the one driving me crazy.
No, it's not like that.
But the circumstances, thelosses, the challenges that we
face, they really have a way ofwearing us down and it can get

(01:04:33):
to a point where we are justkind of feeding off of each
other's pain and hurt.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And it's important for us inthose times to just take a
break.
So she'll go and visit thisfriend that I'm talking about.
She lives in Arizona now.
She's gone and spend time withher.
I love going to the canopy hoteldowntown.

(01:04:57):
Recently, I went to a show witha friend and then.
I stayed the night in a hoteland I got to sleep in and I got
to watch what I wanted to watch.
Again, there's a balance here,but.
As long as you're putting yourmask on so that you can help put
your wife or your husband's maskon, then it's okay.

(01:05:20):
But if you're just taking abreak because you're mad and
you're just doing it so that youcan take care of yourself, I
would challenge you on that.

Jim (01:05:29):
Yeah, don't do that.
If you ever do something to hurtyour spouse, Yeah.
You're the problem.
Yep.
You're the problem.
So maybe work on that.
And if your response to that is,yeah, but they did that to me.
Okay.
Be the one to stop it.
Be the one to stop that cycle.

Ben (01:05:47):
Yeah.
You can be a cycle breaker.

Jim (01:05:48):
You can be the cycle breaker.
You can do better.
And at least then, you knowyou're trying to do what's
right.
And talk about that in, in yourmarriage.
Absolutely.
Melissa, I love you so much.
Thanks.
17 years.
I love my wife more than everbefore.
I love you when you're sick.
I love you.
When you have a migraine, nomatter what, I'll always love

(01:06:12):
you.

Ben (01:06:13):
Yeah.
You were talking about thephysical touch and the hugs when
you get home.
So, we're recording in, it'sbasically my loft est, I don't
know what else to call it.
It's a loft office, and it'salso a podcast studio.
I've had to be creative with theuse of space.
And right now, there's like athree foot gap between my desk

(01:06:34):
and the wall.
And that's also the first placethat I would have the
opportunity to give my wife ahug if she came up here.
Twice in the last three days,she's come up here to either say
goodnight or to say hi aftergetting home from work.
I stand up from my desk, I walkover to hug her, and because

(01:06:55):
it's such a cramped spot, Iknocked my work monitor on the
floor twice.
Just today I knocked it on thefloor and the other day also
just brushed it as we werehugging.
So all the same to my wife, butI promise I will hug you away

(01:07:15):
from the desk so that I don'tbreak things.

Jim (01:07:18):
Good stuff.
my big takeaways from this.
Episode.
I think your spouse needs toknow that you care about them,
that you are taking time out ofyour day to think about their
needs and their desires, whatthey want out of life.
That's huge.
Sometimes it's okay to pull aselfish.

(01:07:40):
You need to be thinking aboutthat other person.
Love ain't a feeling.
It's a commitment.
It's a choice.
It's a choice that you have tomake and you show it when those
tough things are happening.
You got to communicate.
If you don't talk in yourrelationship, you're not going
to have much success.

Ben (01:07:58):
Yes.

Jim (01:07:59):
And as Ben was saying, sometimes I think the best thing
to do is just to step away andtake a break for each other's
health and safety.
Again, that's not saying go andget separated or divorced or
whatever.
No, take that time to, you know,have a, Either together where
you can have that space to justremember who you are or sometime

(01:08:19):
where you can go with yourbuddies and she can go with her
gal pals or vice versa and justabsolutely not have to focus on
whatever that big thing is.

Ben (01:08:29):
I mean, we do it.
Nearly every day.
I mean, depends on howdisciplined you are, but think
about your work life.
I take a lunch break every day.
It doesn't mean that I stopworking and go look for a
different job.
No, it just means I stopworking.
I put it down for an hour.
I give myself time to breathe.

(01:08:50):
And then I pick it back up aftermy lunch break.
So treat the whole break ideawith your marriage, as you would
with work, just because you takea break and you press pause,
doesn't give you permission togo be with a different person.
No.
It's a break so that you canfocus on yourself and recharge

(01:09:12):
so that you can be the bestversion of yourself you can be
for your spouse

Jim (01:09:19):
and find a counselor, find a mentor, find a pastor, find a
friend, whoever it is, somebodythat you can talk to about these
things that has a vestedinterest in the health of your
relationship.

Ben (01:09:34):
Definitely.
And with that.
I would throw in to findsomebody that is comfortable
calling you on your stuff.

Jim (01:09:42):
Yes.
A hundred percent.

Ben (01:09:44):
If you're going to trust your most important relationship
with somebody else, be sure thatthat person is capable of
calling you out when you'rewrong.
Yeah.
Because you need that becauseyou're always going to think
you're right.
Your spouse is always going tothink they're right.
You need somebody who'scomfortable saying, you know
what, Ben, you're being reallyincredibly selfish right now.

(01:10:08):
You need to take that blinderoff and think about your wife

Jim (01:10:11):
because the alternate is a cheerleader Which there's a time
and a place for that if you havea friend who always takes your
side no matter what?
Yay, like good for you.
I'm glad you have a friend whono matter what will always love
and support you But that's notthe only person that you should
be talking to you You need thatfriend who's gonna say you're

(01:10:31):
being an idiot You're beingselfish or you know, I kind of
see where they're coming from.
Yeah, you need that friend.
Thank you That's great adviceBen.

Ben (01:10:41):
Yeah, you not only need a cheerleader.
You need a coach

Jim (01:10:44):
Yeah, I do think you need both and it might be the same
person it could be But a lot oftimes it ends up being a couple
people one person who's justlike a hundred percent your
cheerleader And somebody who'slike, no, you're being stupid.
You need to stop it.
Everybody needs that.
Actually, our next episode,we're going to be talking about
friendships, aren't we?

(01:11:04):
We sure are.
That'll be a, that'll be a goodtime to talk about some of that.
before we head out.
We always say, you know, like,and subscribe, review, all of
that stuff.
I want to focus on, I would loveit if you just tell somebody
else about our show.
The reviews are great.
The likes are great.
We love it when you engage withour Facebook page, but telling

(01:11:24):
somebody else like, Hey, thisshow has really helped me.
That's going to do so much morethan review ever does because
the person who needs to see thisshow or hear this show, they
might never see that review.
But if you go to that person whoyou think might benefit from
this episode and you tell themabout it, you're giving that
person now the opportunity toplug in with this podcast.

(01:11:46):
So that's a great way.
But that being said, we've got anew way that you can support the
show too.
We just.
Got hooked up with this, Ben.
You want to tell them more aboutthat?

Ben (01:11:56):
Yeah, we have a platform that is called buy me a coffee.
Now the premise behind buy me acoffee is to support the
creators in your life who areputting out material that means
something to you.
And so the people over at buy mea coffee, they wanted to make
that possible for podcasters youcan go there and you can choose

(01:12:20):
to make a one time donation ofany amount.
You'll see that there's somepreselected options, but the
other cool thing is that theyalso offer a monthly plan and so
we have two different tiers andwith each tier you get some
perks for Buying into the showand for supporting us So be sure

(01:12:42):
to check out buymeacoffee.
com Slash real men hug and youcan read more about the
different offerings there so youcan make a one time donation You
can support us on a monthlybasis for 10 a month.
We call that the side hug or youcan support us for 20 a month

(01:13:04):
and we call that the bear hug.
I

Jim (01:13:06):
love that you have different names.
Oh yes.

Ben (01:13:09):
And each level has its own perks and we'll tell you more
about those on future episodes.
But just wanted to introduce youto the idea that if this means
something to you, you can usebuy me a coffee to support us.
And that money goes directly topay for the costs of running
this show.
it is not free, but it'ssomething that Jim and I are

(01:13:31):
committed to doing, and we'dlove to have your buy in.

Jim (01:13:34):
We'll put in the show notes a link to buy me a coffee.
Since we're just putting thatout there now, we'll probably
Advertise it on the Facebookpage that you can support us
really does help us a lot.
Especially for instance, if youwant in the future to see more
guests on the show, or if youwant to see us in a video format
that would require us to buymore equipment already.

(01:13:57):
There's monthly costs withhosting the show and everything
that goes with editing the show,but we have physical costs too.
So the more help and support weget from that, the more likely
we are in the future to do.
Video shows or weekly episodes,because that would be an
additional cost.
All of that right now, we'rerestricted by two things, time

(01:14:18):
and money.
So if you want to support theshow, you can do that one time
donation or you can do monthly.
That would be greatlyappreciated and it would help us
reach more people in the show.
So be looking out for buy me acoffee in the show notes on our
Facebook page, and just reallyappreciate your support and
sharing the show with otherfolks.

Ben (01:14:39):
Marriage is hard, but it is worth it.
So whether your marriage isthriving or maybe you're barely
surviving, or maybe you wishthat you were married, but
you're not.
Wherever you may find yourselfin this season of life, marriage
is worth it.

(01:15:00):
Don't forget that mask, butdon't forget to put your spouses
on either.
Thanks for listening to Real MenHug.

Jim (01:15:09):
And remember, real men hug, but they also hurdy durd.
And remember, real men hug, butthey also don't forget to order
Jimmy John's for their wife.

Ben (01:15:25):
And remember, real men hug, but they also have a secret
stash of incense.
But jim calls it.

Jim (01:15:32):
It smells like campfire smoke when I come up here.
Besties with testies.
Ooh.
Marriage.
Marriage is what brings ustogether today