April 25, 2024 • 53 mins
Dive into a riveting collaborative dialogue between Real Men Hug and Roundtable Mindset as they bravely confront the age-old assumptions and societal norms that shape our perceptions of gender roles. In this illuminating episode, listeners are invited to challenge the rigid confines of traditional masculinity and femininity, as the hosts fearlessly explore the intricacies of roles within marriages and families.
Through candid anecdotes and introspective musings, the hosts peel back the layers of stereotypes, revealing the often-overlooked nuances of daily life. From the simple act of pumping gas on a blustery winter day to the complex dynamics of mental load in relationships, no topic is off-limits.
Join Ben and Jim as they chat with Jamie and Mahlon (Roundtable Mindset) and recount their early relationship struggles, shedding light on the unspoken expectations and hidden biases that can strain even the strongest bonds.
This episode empowers action. With practical advice, the hosts encourage open communication and individuality, offering a roadmap for change. Progress is essential in our evolving society, where economic realities demand new ways of doing life. Join the conversation and shape a future where authenticity reigns.
Come back next week to hear Part 2 of the conversation, and be sure to check out our new friends' podcast wherever you listen - Roundtable Mindset.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Ben (00:02):
Welcome to Real Men Hug, a podcast for men and the women
who love them.
I'm Ben.
Jim (00:07):
And I'm Jim.
Ben (00:09):
Today we have a treat for you.
Jim (00:11):
I am so excited to introduce to you Roundtable
Mindset.
We are in kind of like acollaboration group on Facebook
with some other podcasters andRoundtable Mindset was the first
one.
Not only that introduced us tothat group, but also that we
really keyed in on, because Ijust love their content.
(00:33):
They ask those tough questionsand have raw conversations like
on our podcast.
And there's just a synergybetween our two podcasts, unlike
any other, I just.
Absolutely have loved listeningto some of their episodes.
And I'm so excited to haveMahlon and Jamie on our show
today.
Ben (00:52):
If you like Ben and Jim, you are going to love these two.
We had such a blast recordingwith them.
So excited for you to listen.
So let's jump in.
Jim (01:01):
Let's jump in.
All right.
I got to say, I am so excited tobe here today with Roundtable
Mindset.
Been a fan of your show for, Ithink we were introduced to your
show probably maybe a month ortwo ago.
I've listened to a few episodesand just so excited to have you
(01:21):
guys as the first people that wecollaborate with.
So just really excited to behere and have this conversation
with you.
Mahlon (01:30):
Well, we're honored.
To be your first.
Let me just say it that way.
Jamie (01:35):
Excited to be here.
This is gonna be fun.
Well, I was gonna say,
Mahlon (01:39):
Jim, you're using our word excited.
That's, we've cornered, by thispoint, we should have had that
trademarked to our show becausewe say it all the time.
Jamie (01:49):
Was it we, or was it me?
Cause I can't come up with otherwords, but it's exciting.
And we're excited to be here.
Everything's really exciting.
Mahlon (01:56):
I was trying to take some heat off of you, Jamie.
So, but it is you, it is you.
Jamie (02:01):
I'll own it.
It's fine.
Jim (02:02):
I think our trademark is a hundred percent.
Ben (02:06):
Well, that's my trademark.
I'll, I'll own that one too.
A hundred percent.
Jamie (02:10):
Well, so now we all know what the merch is, right?
Like a hundred percent.
That's right.
Excited.
Yes.
Oh, look at that.
Look at that.
We should get merch for ourcollaboration.
Oh my goodness.
Mahlon (02:21):
Well, I will say, I don't know if this is needed or
not, but this is Mahlon fromRound Table Mindsets.
Nice to meet everyone.
I will say, I have been a bigfan of Real Men Hug since the
very first episode.
I know, for me,, I don't think Iconsider myself a typical male,
sports or something that I cantake or leave.
I'm not really interested inlike a lot of the male driven
(02:43):
activities.
You know, I have some friendsthat are really into cars and
sports and all this other stuff,heavy metal.
I mean, as a kid and none ofthat really kind of spoke to me.
And so I felt like I was kind ofremoved from what a mainstream
male was.
I've just kind of lived with it,and I've just kind of grown up
and became an adult and had afamily of my own, all just kind
(03:05):
of with this understanding thatI was just different, and there
wasn't a lot of people that Icould relate to, and then I hear
your guys podcast, and what Ilove about it is you say a lot
of the things that I am feelingor that I've experienced, and
you don't make apologies for it.
And I think that's somethingthat I've learned from myself,
um, that I've done is that I'vejust made myself smaller
(03:27):
sometimes, especially aroundother, other guys, or I've
apologized for it.
And that's one thing that afterlistening to your episodes, I
realized I don't need to dothat.
And I shouldn't be doing thatbecause I am my own person and I
don't want to fit into any kindof stereotypical mold.
And I'm okay with that, I think,or at least I'm trying to be.
(03:49):
I love your guys episodes inyour podcast.
Jamie (03:51):
You guys had me at real men hug, just the title of the
podcast.
I was so interested in that.
I prefer podcasts that bring adifferent perspective and help
me see things in a differentway.
To just learn about differentviewpoints and perspectives has
been really helpful for me.
It's just part of, it's part ofmy jam.
I nerd out over things likethat.
I've really enjoyed, hearing youguys.
Jim (04:10):
Yeah.
Well, Ben and I look up to youas a show.
You guys are amazing.
A step in front of us.
You've been recording for a yearnow, right?
It's been a year that you'rerecording
Mahlon (04:21):
just celebrated.
So we've just now hit a year.
So in some ways we're your firstcollaboration and you're our one
year guests.
So welcome and happy birthday tous.
Jamie.
Ben (04:34):
Yeah, happy birthday to the round table mindset.
Yeah, I'm looking forward towhen we get to a year.
We've got 10 episodes.
That was our latest celebration.
Yeah, and it's been a blast andMahlon what you were saying
about Not apologizing for whoyou are I just wanted to,, stand
(04:54):
up and shout yes, that, ahundred percent.
I spent probably the better partof 35 years,.
Feeling bad for being different.
Feeling like I had to apologizeto the world for being overly
sensitive for Not being a sportsfan.
I'm turning 40 next week, by thetime listeners hear this, I'll
(05:17):
be 40 I'm done apologizing topeople for being who I am.
I am the guy that will go to acoffee shop with my journal and
just sit and listen to lo fimusic and write in my journal.
There's this big dude over inthe corner and he's journaling
and tearing up.
(05:38):
I don't feel the need to hidethat from people.
what you said, Mahlon hit thenail on the head for me.
I just want to be authenticallyme, even if that means breaking
some societal norms andexpectations.
There's just so many unwrittenand written expectations that
society puts on both men andwomen.
(06:00):
And I'm excited about unpackingthose here today.
Jamie (06:06):
That's awesome.
Mahlon (06:07):
Absolutely.
And, and Ben, I'm kind offinding out that you were the
king of transitions because man,that was slick.
That was smooth.
What you just did there.
That's pretty, that's prettygood.
Yeah.
I'm like, bravo.
Ben (06:17):
It's not my first rodeo.
Jamie (06:19):
That's fantastic.
Cause even after a year, we haveto announce our segways.
I am here to segway.
Mahlon (06:27):
For those of you who are missing it, we are moving on to
the next point right now.
Okay.
Ben (06:33):
And here it is.
That's the kind of thing thatJim would be like, Ben, stop
being Mr.
Whittaker over there.
Jim (06:38):
No, that was a good one, Ben.
That would have been a littlegolf clap for you.
Mahlon (06:44):
I'll second that.
One of the things that I'mexcited to talk specifically
with the three of you, but, uh,Jim and Ben, to get your
perspective, there's theseexpectations that are floating
around.
And I know when we all startedgetting together and kind of
saying, Hey, what are we goingto collaborate on?
This was something that was kindof percolating in the back of my
brain because I was hearing yourguys's podcast because I was
(07:07):
experiencing things personally,because as I'm getting older,
I'm just feeling less and less,I'm feeling tired of having to
make excuses for myself justbecause of who I am and when,
you know, Jamie and I on some ofour previous episodes, we've
tackled some gender.
Specific topics and it can getpretty heated and it can get
pretty, divisive just becauseit's a very passionate
(07:30):
conversation, but that stilldoesn't mean that there's not
things there that we should betalking about.
And so the expectations that weset on each other from a male's
point of view and a female'spoint of view, um.
I am all about us talkingthrough those because I think
that happens today in a lot ofdifferent ways.
And it's almost like rules ofengagement of life.
(07:51):
you don't necessarily purposelythink about them because they've
always been there.
And I'm really excited for thisgroup to kind of talk through
those and sorry, Jamie, but Iknow as you kind of being the
only female voice.
You can't be every woman, likeyou've said, but I'm looking to
you to kind of bring us thatthat woman's point of view,
because that's the point of viewthat I can't, I can't have as
(08:15):
much as I look on the outside,I'll never be able to experience
it the way that you experienceit.
Jamie (08:22):
Well, I just want to clarify that Oprah says I can be
every woman.
So I'm going to go with it forthis episode.
Jim (08:28):
All right.
So Jamie's every woman and we'lldo our best to represent the
three of us.
Right.
Mahlon (08:37):
I feel like there's stereotypes within the roles of
men and women that I thinkthey've been there for the
longest time.
And are they okay that they staythere?
Should we be trying to changethem?
So can we start withstereotypes?
Ben (08:49):
Who's got a stereotype to unpack?
Jamie (08:51):
Mahlon's full of them.
Mahlon (08:53):
Oh, I got a small one that just drives me absolutely
nuts.
And I even hesitate talkingabout it because it's so weird
because they've always beenthere, but I've always been
under the impression, theexpectation that's kind of set
before me.
If there is a spider in theroom, I am the resident spider
(09:13):
killer.
I have to be the one that goesand, and destroys it and gets it
out of the room.
It's one of those things that Idon't mind that role, I guess,
but I don't want it to beexpected.
I always do it as a kid.
I was terrified of spiders.
I had arachnophobia really badto the point where I would sit
there and start sweating ifthere was a spider in the room
and the expectation, even when Iwas a kid, if I was there with
(09:35):
my mom and my sister, I was theone that had to go and kill the
spider just because I was, Iguess the, the guy in the room,
the man, I don't think that'sfair.
I don't think that that'snecessarily something that has
to be there because I am theresident boy or the male in the
room.
Jamie (09:53):
I don't mind taking care of a spider.
If there's a snake, it's a wholedifferent story, I'm just
saying, like, then yes, I'mgoing to want someone who is
braver than I to go take care ofthe snake.
you know, what's interesting nowthat you say that, that totally
was, how it was set up in myhouse when I was married and
younger.
And then I was a single mom.
(10:14):
And we moved into an apartmentthat had been empty for a bit
and had spiders.
And then guess what?
I was the biggest, bravestperson in the room and I got to
kill the spiders.
I guess I hadn't thought thatcould be a thing, spider killer.
Jim (10:27):
You know, I think stereotypes are just kind of a
shortcut that our brain takes totry to understand something
that's not familiar to us.
Right?
So sometimes stereotypes I thinkcan be healthy as long as we are
okay with adjusting them whenprovided with different
information.
So when you have a relationshipwhere that stereotype doesn't
(10:49):
work, then you figure it out.
Like if you are the man, butyou're allergic to bees, deathly
allergic, And there's a bee inthe house, normally you kill the
bugs, but maybe this time it'syour wife that does it because
you don't want to have a severeallergic reaction.
I think as long as you have thatwillingness to adapt your
(11:10):
understanding.
I don't know, I don't, I don'tthink they're always a bad thing
necessarily, at least to startwith that level of
understanding.
Ben (11:19):
But they do get bad at times.
And my example of a stereotypethat went bad is something that
I was trying to remember on ourlast episode of Real Men Hug.
We did an episode of marriage.
Jim had this great story aboutforgetting to order his wife
Jimmy John's.
And I'm just relishing, punintended, the story and not able
(11:42):
to think of my own story ofsomething similar.
It came to me finally and itfits very well here.
My stereotype was this.
It was middle of winter inMichigan being from the Midwest.
You guys probably understandthat winters can be a pain and
it gets cold.
It gets, you know, the wind isblowing, the snow is falling.
(12:05):
We were in Holland, Michigan,which is very close to Lake
Michigan.
And it's just like a blizzardand my wife needs gas and I'm
with her in the car, she'sdriving.
In my mind, the stereotype hasalways been if you're driving,
you're responsible for pumpingyour own gas.
We stop to get gas and we'resitting at the pump and she's
(12:29):
just sitting in her seat and nottaking her seatbelt off and not
getting up to pump gas.
And I'm in the passenger seatjust completely oblivious and
finally, it must have been 30seconds or a minute, I just
looked at her and I was like, Ithought you said we were getting
gas.
And she, in a very disgruntledmanner, says, What kind of
(12:51):
boyfriend doesn't pump gas forhis girlfriend in the freezing
cold blizzard of Michigan?
And then she slams her handagainst the steering wheel and
opens the door dramatically andjumps out and pumps her own gas.
And I'm just sitting in the carlike, what just happened?
And so that, to me, like we bothhad competing stereotypes.
(13:14):
Who's right?
Does the driver pump gas or isit the boyfriend?
Because he's the dude in therelationship and it's supposed
to do the hard things, likewhich stereotype is right.
Jamie (13:26):
See, and I'm sitting here thinking, huh, sounds like a
typical young relationship, lackof communication.
Right.
Like I think that I, and Ithink.
Stereotype is one thing.
Cause I feel like stereotypesare something that society puts
on us.
And some of these things I feellike are more, um, like what we
just bring to relationship,right?
(13:47):
Like whenever we have thoseinteractions, I think that how
we were raised or what You know,what, what the landscape was
when we were young and cominginto these spaces really plays a
huge part in how we interact, asmen and women or what our
expectations are.
For instance, I, I hate outside.
(14:09):
I hate bugs.
So lawn work is not a thing forme.
I'm not going to be mowing thelawn.
Right?
So when I came into marriage,when I was like 23 years old, it
was just assumed that this ishow this was going to work,
right?
He was going to mow the lawn.
I was going to do the cooking.
Cause I was None of us wantedhot dogs every night of the
(14:30):
week.
That came from where, how wewere raised, right?
That came from the way that wewere brought up.
I wonder, is that a stereotypething or is that more like
societal expectations of genderroles?
Jim (14:42):
I think that is a good example that typically people
assume that the guy is out doingthe yard work and that the wife
is doing the cooking, but that'snot always the case.
And sometimes it switches, likein Ben's relationship, I know
it, it kind of swapped halfwaythrough there, so.
Ben (15:02):
More than halfway through.
More than halfway.
It was like three fourths of theway through, let's be honest.
I continue to struggle withthat.
And 17 years later, we're stillmarried.
Thank goodness.
But it's been rough.
There's been a lot of thosemoments where I just assumed
that things are this way and wedon't communicate about it.
(15:25):
And then one of us gets upsetbecause we're not seeing eye to
eye on something.
As far as gender roles go in, inour setting, my wife was
responsible for basicallyeverything up until within the
last year or two, it's fluid.
And I think that's one of thethings that has been most
(15:47):
impactful for me aboutunderstanding expectations and
gender norms and all of that.
I used to think of them aswritten in stone and there's
nothing I can do about them.
But the truth is they're fluidand I have the ability to say
what I want for myself and whatexpectations I'm going to put on
(16:10):
myself.
That's been a huge moment ofawakening for me of just
realizing.
I can go against the grain ofwhat other people say, and it's
okay, and in fact, it's healthy.
And so that's been the discoveryfor me.
Mahlon (16:28):
I agree with all of that.
I guess where I have a problemwith expectations set from the
genders, from a man to a womanor a woman to a man, is that
sometimes they're rooted intradition, sometimes they're
rooted in Some of your faith, Ithink, could maybe spill in
this, how you were raised isprobably really a big point of
view or a big, factor into it.
(16:50):
What drives me nuts is that ifthey're established and these
expectations are set then theystart changing or you start
getting challenged on them.
Once that's been set in stonefor you for so many years It's
hard to start adapting and Ithink in today's society.
There's this expectation thatOh, we've now learned something
new.
(17:10):
Everybody needs to shift.
And maybe this is me kind of, asI'm getting older, I'm
understanding that shiftingdoesn't happen as fast for me as
it did when I was younger.
And again, I don't know ifthat's a mental thing.
I don't know if that's a agething.
I don't know if that's agenerational thing.
But it doesn't matter because,that's true.
Where I started gettingfrustrated is, okay, that used
(17:31):
to be how things were.
That was an expectation thatused to be set.
Now that's changing from asocietal point of view.
If I'm not changing as fast aswhat society deems it to be,
Then I'm wrong.
People start saying things to meor you start noticing at work or
even around maybe your friendgroup or even your, you know,
day to day with your, your wifeor your significant other.
(17:54):
And I don't think that's fairbecause there should be some
accountability and there shouldbe some recognition to say, this
is something that has eitherbeen ingrained and maybe as a
small child, I was raised with acertain point of view and to
expect it to be just changedlike a light switch.
I think there needs to be someaccommodation for that, and
people need to have someawareness that people are
(18:14):
probably changing at their ownrate, and they need to recognize
that if it's not as far as longas they are, doesn't mean
they're not trying, it doesn'tmean that it's not moving.
It just means that it's in theprocess, and people are coming
along, and some people may onlybe able to bend so far.
And that's as far as they'llever going to get.
Jim (18:32):
Mahlon.
I think that's a great point.
That's at least on my end.
I know that was one of the hugereasons why I was drawn to this
topic, because I think we areseeing that huge shift where
it's just harder to survive.
In this economy than it, than itused to be.
You know, it used to be that oneperson could go to work, get it
(18:53):
done.
You could buy a house, you know,almost immediately after getting
married, if not immediatelyafter getting married, and it
just sort of rolled into thenext step and the next step.
And it doesn't negate the hardwork that went along the way,
but now you have more dualincome households that.
People can't even afford a houseanymore, but for a while we
(19:14):
still had that same expectationthat, Oh, well, if you, if
somebody is not staying homewith the kids, then you're a bad
person.
How could you possibly do that?
Somebody should be with thekids.
Why aren't you?
Well, because I can't afford it.
And then what if one person likein my household, my wife, her
hourly salary is more than mine.
(19:35):
Should she be the one who isworking more?
And then if that's the case,then a lot of those traditional
female roles and householdchores and raising the kids, do
those go to me because I makeless money or do I work more
hours because I'm the man and mywife stays home and she just has
to work?
And do all the stuff at home towe're not living in the same
(19:56):
world, but we're still beingtold all of those same
expectations.
But then, in my opinion, we havethis whole new world view coming
out of nowhere that's saying,well, no, that's all wrong.
And we're just going to dothings completely differently.
And I feel as a man myself, it'slike, I don't even know what to
do and being a typical and.
(20:17):
Kind of having grown upconservative, but having also a
lot of some things, a liberalmindset where I agree on this
side of things.
I feel like no matter what Ithink and do, I'm making
somebody upset and I just don'tknow what.
I'm supposed to do or how I'msupposed to act without somebody
being like, Nope, you're doingit wrong.
Jamie (20:37):
What's interesting is I feel like it's still kind of a
novelty and I think, you know,like a stay at home dad
situation or something like thatis super novelty to me still.
But I think what's interestingis how, how different.
The expectation is, and, andit's interesting to me to look
backwards too, because, my, mymom was coming up in the age of,
(21:00):
you know, women's empowerment Iam woman, hear me roar was like
my mom's life theme orsomething, right?
So beat into my head, you arejust as good.
Being a woman doesn't make youless than.
However, in her relationshipwith my dad, it was very
traditional and typical of thegeneration.
(21:22):
Right.
And I look back to things likeadvertising Women made a bulk of
the purchasing choices withtheir husband's money.
All the advertising was aboutbeing ready for dinner when he
comes home with this beautifulnew Frigidaire fridge, you know,
like all of these differentthings.
What excites me is the massiveshift that I've seen and what I
(21:44):
see moving forward.
And, you know, I don't thinkwe're, I don't think we're there
yet.
I don't think we're done.
And I, I feel like at my house,it was pretty traditional,
traditional, I'm using airquotes because.
I don't know that it's astraditional as my mind sees it,
but around me, it's verytraditional that if the kids
were sick, I was home, right?
(22:05):
If there was a meeting atschool, I attended.
If the kids needed to go to thedoctor, that was my job.
But at the same time.
I chose that.
I chose to do that because itwas important to me and that was
okay with me.
And I think that's probably whythe space feels like if I think
this way or do this thing, itfeels wrong because I think
we're sandwiching in betweenshifting and it makes me wonder
(22:28):
if my mom was in that samespace.
Jim (22:32):
We wanted to take a break in the middle of this
conversation we're having withround table mindset to remind
you that we have got this newcampaign that you can help
support our show.
Buy me a coffee.
It's in the show notes.
We've got it up on the episodenotes and the Facebook page, so
be sure to check out.
Buy me a coffee.
(22:53):
I also wanted to give a heartyshout out to Sarah Yoder for
giving us a legendary hug on ourbuy me a coffee platform because
of.
Sarah's donation.
We were able to immediately turnaround and get a couple cameras
for our show that we've beenwanting to get.
We had another member also hopon and give us a legendary hug.
(23:18):
Blown away by the support thatwe've been getting from our
listeners.
That we're able to turn aroundand put that money into the show
by getting better audio andvisual equipment so that we can
continue to do this for you.
So thank you so much to ourlisteners for supporting the
show.
If you haven't yet, and you wantto check out, buy me a coffee,
(23:39):
be sure to find those links.
We would love any amount ofsupport from our listeners.
It helps us do what we do.
Ben (23:45):
So check it out at buymeacoffee.
com slash real men hug.
And know that it certainly makesa huge difference for Jim and I
both.
Mahlon (23:57):
What's hard for me is I never realized growing up just
how Different I was.
My mom did the majority of thehousework, but she didn't do it
alone.
From the time that I was insecond grade, going forward, I
had a chore list that I had todo.
I was doing my own laundry whenI was in the second grade.
(24:17):
I was doing the laundry.
I was making the beds.
I made not only my bed, butother people's beds.
I did take out the, the trash.
I mean, everybody in the househelped, but my mom kind of ran
the household and she alsoworked.
I didn't realize how uncommonthat was.
And then I'd go over to people'shouses I would pick up my dishes
and I'd go rinse them off andput them in the sink.
(24:38):
And they would be like, what areyou doing that for?
My mom will take care of that.
And it's like, no, you shouldtake care of it for yourself.
I didn't even realize that, butthat's what my mom was teaching.
My mom was teaching me to say,you need to be independent.
So my mom, as a young man wasteaching me, you don't need to
be dependent on a woman to takecare of you.
And on the flip side, youshouldn't expect a woman to take
(24:59):
care of you.
That's not their role.
Their role isn't just to bethere and serve your needs, you
should also learn how to takecare of yourself.
And I didn't realize that lessonshe was teaching me was so much
in the future.
Jamie, I know you made thecomment of, living off of your
husband's money.
My wife and I, she's a stay athome mom and I'm the one that's
in the workforce.
And that conversation has comeup several times in our marriage
(25:22):
with friends.
They say things like.
Are you okay with Kim spendingyour money or Kim?
How are you feeling with, Mahlonmaking the money?
The way we have to look at thatis it's not just one of our, our
paychecks that come in.
I might be earning it, but weboth get it and That's one thing
we've had a fight for a verylong time is that even if I'm in
(25:43):
the workforce earning it, it'snot just my money.
A lot of people seem to have aproblem with that, or at least
the ability to see that it'sboth of our money, even though
one of us is earning it.
Jamie (25:55):
I wonder how much of that is that there aren't a whole lot
of stay at home parents anymoreThere's probably not as many
families who are able to do thatas there used to be because of
the economy and the times welive in, both parents really
have to work most of the time.
It's just like, how do you dothis?
Jim (26:11):
Yeah, no, statistically, there are not as many single
income households as there usedto be.
But that's, I guess the point Iwas trying to get at is there's
still these holdovers from thefact that there very much was
this traditional nuclearhousehold where you.
The man earns the money and the,the woman stays at home.
(26:32):
As an example my wife worksnights, which means a lot of
times she's sleeping during theday.
If there's an email or a callfrom school, maybe, it happens
to be a day that she's up, butthere's a good chance that she's
sleeping.
Every time we're filling outthose papers, Here's dad's
number.
(26:53):
Here's very clearly written out,do not call Melissa, my wife.
Here's her number just in case,but call Jim.
And we explain the situation,and who do they call?
They call my wife, becausethat's what you do.
You call the woman, right?
She's the one who's organizingeverything.
She's the one who's knowingwhat's going on with the kids.
(27:15):
And it's this huge stereotypethat we had to fight.
It took like two years for theschool to finally get no.
Jim is the one who responds tocalls.
And I'm like, I'm sorry, but mywife has the patience of a
mayfly.
You don't want to talk to her.
She's sleep deprived and annoyedthat she's talking to you
instead of sleeping.
(27:35):
So you probably want to talk tome, but that's something that
we've had to fight because.
Those teachers and the principaland whoever, they just assume
that, well, of course, it's thewife who is advocating for the
kids and showing up.
There's this huge holdover thatyou have to fight.
Ben (27:52):
Definitely.
That is identical to how it'sbeen with my wife, Andi, and I,
if a teacher emails the parentabout something, I'm typically
the one that's replying and eventhough I sign my name and make
it very clear at the end that itwas from me, teachers will
respond and they'll be like, Oh,Andi, thank you for that
(28:14):
information.
And I'm just like, what?
I even said it was me.
I've started the emails bysaying, this is Ben, just to
make it abundantly clear.
we have a joint email addressand it's kind of funny because.
It's Ben, Andi, and then ourlast name.
I think people look at that andinstead of reading Ben, Andi,
(28:36):
they read Ben and I.
And so they assume that it's thewoman having the pressure to
have the man's name on the emailaddress, but it's actually her.
So yeah, it's just this crazything.
Mahlon (28:50):
I will say the last episode that I listened to Real
Men Hug, I really felt convictedbecause What you guys are just
talking about that is aexpectation stereotype that I
fall in very nicely.
I am comfortable with letting mywife just handle all of those
situations with the kids and Ibelieve it was in your last
episode about marriage where youtalked about the mental load.
(29:13):
everything that you were sayingin your example, I was like,
Ouch, ouch, ouch.
I'm doing all of that.
I actually went to my wife andapologized to her.
I said, I am allowing you totake all of this responsibility
on and it's unfair that I'm not,even asking to help Chip in or
even taking a little bit off.
And it truly wasn't until Ilistened to that episode that I
(29:35):
realized there's a lot that goeson her plate that I just expect
that she's going to do that.
Be it either her gender or be itthat she's a stay at home mom.
We had a really niceconversation and I think going
forward, we're going to see someimprovement.
Some might say too little toolate as our kids are aging, but
again, where, where realizationcomes in, that's where I can
(29:56):
start changing it.
To go one step further as I'mdoing self reflection now, I
didn't even care if my wifeagreed with it or not, because I
wasn't even asking if she agreedwith it.
That's how it was set up andthat's what we were going to do.
And I realized now that there'sother areas that I'm going to
have to start inspecting andhave those, conversations to
say, this is an expectation.
(30:17):
Is this your same expectation?
And if not, where do we have toadjust?
And that is something that Ihaven't done before.
And I'm looking forward to it.
It's all coming together at theright time for me, I guess.
Jamie (30:30):
You know, it wasn't until recently that I understood that
idea of mental load.
I'm a working mom.
My kids are grown and out of thehouse now.
Yay.
There would be times where Iwould get to that space and I
would just lose my crap, and Icouldn't figure out why.
It's just been recently thatI've realized, those plates that
I was juggling all the time andnot understanding that I was
(30:51):
taking on all of those roles.
I was taking all of thoseresponsibilities on because I
was the parent, the parent, mypartner is definitely part of
their lives and super supportiveand does those things, but a lot
of those things he couldn't do.
I have all of those homeexpectations with my family, but
then I have all theseexpectations at work too.
that's been a huge driver forthis shift, in my opinion, in,
(31:14):
in expectation, because it wasdifferent when.
Most moms stayed home with kidsand most dads went out to work.
Now that both parents areworking, we have to start
shifting some of those loads alittle bit and share, that
mental load one person can't doall of that at the same time.
and I think it's been too slowto shift.
(31:34):
That's part of why I thinkthere's a lot of heavy criticism
and scrutiny over those typicalgender expectations because, I
don't know that we've known thatthis was an issue for a while.
I didn't even recognize it formyself for a long time.
Jim (31:51):
And I think you're just left feeling tired and you don't
know why, because that's alwaysjust been the assumption that
the woman takes care of it andyou are just left frustrated.
I think of like Ben and Andisituation.
Andi probably was like, well,yeah, Ben, maybe because you
don't help around here.
And Ben in his traditional rolesthings.
(32:12):
Well, yeah, because you know,I'm out making money and then I
go.
Go back home and I put my feetup, you know, we sort of use
that analogy of the plane, theair masks coming down and Ben
sitting there making sure hegets his peanuts to snack on.
And meanwhile, everyone'spassing out around him.
And really, it is that culturalshift that we have to recognize
that I think women have beenShouldering so much more of that
(32:36):
burden because now they have towork and do everything around
the house.
And even when you have somebodywho is aware of mental load and
trying to help, then you havethose outside forces like the
school in my example, that'strying hard to make it continue
to be something that the womanhas to continue doing.
Jamie (32:57):
I work with families a lot.
No shade to the single dads.
Okay.
The single dads who are bustingit and working hard to do that.
Absolutely no shade.
But what's interesting to me ishow.
accolades are for single dads,dads who are not following the
traditional mom's taking thekids and dads get them every
other weekend, but vice versa.
(33:19):
it's almost, disheartening tosee how much congratulations and
extra support and, Oh, my heartgoes out to that guy cause he's
just doing the right thing forhis kids.
And I'm thinking, you know,Dude, this has been going on
forever, it's just anexpectation that single moms are
going to do what single moms aregoing to do.
And they're going to, they'regoing to take the world by storm
because they have to.
(33:40):
And here the dads are gettingall this applause and how
amazing are you?
You know?
Oh yeah.
Mahlon (33:44):
Drives, drives my wife.
Absolutely.
Nuts.
Absolutely
Jim (33:48):
not.
I my wife is going to belistening to this laughing
because we have literally aninside joke when I go out with
the kids.
She's like, okay, who told youyou're a great dad this time?
Because she will go out andpeople are like judging her and
stuff.
I like, why can't you get yourkids under control?
And I'm sitting there likeskipping through the aisles with
(34:10):
the cart.
And people are like, Oh, look atyou.
You're doing such a good jobwith those kids.
I was yelling at my kid in theparking lot., I, I rarely ever
yell.
He goes running out between twosets of cars and he almost got
hit by a car.
And so I yelled at him in theparking lot.
Like.
Dude, that can't happen.
And I see this guy walking up tome, I'm like, great, like this
(34:33):
guy's going to sit here and tellme that you shouldn't yell at
your kid, blah, blah, blah.
He waits for me to shut the doorto the car.
And then he just goes, good job,dad.
I told my wife, she's like, ofcourse, if it would have been
me, they would have told me howterrible of a mother I was
yelling at my kid
Jamie (34:49):
that they would have called CFS.
They would have called you in.
Mahlon (34:54):
When I help out at the school that's where it really
drives my wife nuts.
She works at the school and thenshe also volunteers from time to
time at the school and it's sofunny But when she's there It's
almost like, yeah, and I go foran afternoon for three hours and
I walk out of there wearing acrown and have a robe on..
I mean, it's like, I've reallydone something.
(35:15):
Yeah.
And I'm like, one of the thingsthough, that really kind of
gnaws on me about this whole,Expectation is I cannot stand it
when I'm with my kids and thishappened a lot when I when they
were younger and They would seeme at the park or I'd be doing
something and somebody wouldcome and be like, oh you
babysitting the kids today No,they're my children.
(35:37):
I'm not babysitting them I'm notthat just drove me nuts.
I'm like, no, I'm notbabysitting my own children, but
thanks for asking
Jamie (35:45):
Isn't just the language alone, just like puts an
exclamation point on thoseroles.
I'm super glad to see thosekinds of things shifting.
I'm glad that my daughter willmake, a world that that.
It may not be the same for heras it is now.
And that's an exciting thing.
Jim (36:05):
We should criticize men every bit as much as women is
what you're saying.
That's what I'm hearing, right?
Jamie (36:12):
Equal opportunity criticism.
That's right.
For me, everyone should feelterrible.
Mahlon (36:18):
You're all doing a bad job, right?
Ben (36:22):
Just hearing Jim talk about.
That experience of being at thegrocery store with the kids and
then hearing Mahlon talk aboutthe school volunteering and how
he, he left with a crown.
That's just been a major ahamoment for me, even sitting here
recording.
It is so true.
The moms who do this every damnday never get any praise or
(36:46):
kudos or pats on the back.
If anything, they get thecriticism.
They get the calls.
And I've experienced it as well,being the dad and doing the
things and getting all of theaffirmation.
Not once have I paused to think,my wife never gets this kind of
treatment.
So, I'm over here having an ahha moment.
(37:06):
So, thanks guys.
I appreciate it.
Jamie (37:08):
What I love is that this idea that mom's nurture and
dad's, teach and guide anddiscipline right.
But, um, I love that that isshifting.
Dads that are 10 years youngerthan me or 15 years younger than
me that are so invested inraising men who, are emotionally
(37:30):
intelligent and, and young menwho, take care of other people
and care for other people andhave some sense of
responsibility to other people.
That is an incredible shift thatI'm seeing in, younger parents
and, younger families.
Dad's need to nurture just asmuch as mom's need to nurture.
Right.
mom needs to be empowered todiscipline and, and set
(37:53):
boundaries just as much as dadcan set boundaries and, and
discipline too.
That's going to make us betteras a people moving forward.
Yeah.
Mahlon (38:02):
I have some thoughts around that.
Jamie (38:08):
Welcome to the round table guys.
Mahlon (38:09):
No, I don't want people to hear it as I am disagreeing
because I, I'm not, I think it'sgreat that they're shifting from
my point of view.
And again, I'm making this aboutme, so I can't say this about
all men.
And I'm glad I Jim and been hereto kind of bring their
perspective.
But I will say.
there is something to say about.
(38:31):
A mom's nurturing abilitycompared to a dad's now Am I
here to say that a man cannot beas good of a nurturer as a
woman?
I'm not gonna say that but I cansay it's easier for me to see a
woman in that role based off ofmy own worldview and I see that
within myself and i've seen thatwith the people That you know
raised me and how I grew up Grewup and the friends around me and
(38:53):
the environment, and even intoday's world, I can kind of see
that, you know, you see kids geta booboo, they very rarely run
to dad and say, dad, I needhelp.
It's always, mom, I need, I wantyou, I mean my, my kids growing
up, when they had theirtuck-ins, they asked for their
mother, their dad.
They were like, well, if youwant to come in, that's fine,
but we really just want mom to,you know, I mean, they wouldn't
(39:14):
say, we wouldn't take a tuck infrom you, dad, but they never
really asked Yeah.
And again, I know there's a lotof factors that go into that.
The question is, is a newexpectation that a man and a
woman are to be exactly the samein every scenario?
there are differences betweenpeople for a variety of
different reasons, gender, race,religion, all of them.
(39:35):
Is a new expectation is thatwe're all supposed to be exactly
the same?
Because I think that's anexpectation that a lot of people
are going fail at because Ican't be exactly the same way in
all situations that my wife canbe, or a female could be in.
Jim (39:50):
I think for me as a dad of two boys, that is really
aggravating for me.
And that was probably the secondreason why I really wanted to do
this episode because takingschool as an example, school is
designed around the way thatgirls are naturally set, you
know, like they're a lot more,I'm going to sit at my seat and
(40:12):
I'm going to learn and I'm notgoing to speak up and go out of
turn.
And you have this phrase, toxicmasculinity that came out that
Ben and I have talked aboutthis.
And absolutely there are thingsabout toxic masculinity that we
need to toss out that areabsolutely bad, but it's somehow
(40:33):
in our culture got wrapped upinto anything that is naturally
what guys are like.
Is intrinsically bad.
And so now we have designedschool around the way that girls
are and when a has just energy,not even necessarily doing
anything bad or hitting somebodyor whatever, then it's like, why
(40:56):
aren't you doing that?
Why can't you be more like thisgirl?
Well, because I'm not, this ishow I was born.
This is how my brain is wired.
They need different things.
In the military, they're like,should we change the
expectations of how muchphysical stuff that we could do
because women should be able todo this, too.
Okay, let's, let's do that.
(41:17):
Change things to make sure whatdo you actually need to do in
this situation and let's changeit to be fair instead of
arbitrarily saying you need todo 50 push ups, right?
So we can change it and stillmake it fair, but at some point
or another, we, we don't alwaysdo that with boys where it's
just like, no, this is alwaysthe way that we've done school.
You need to change how you'rewired because this is how things
(41:40):
are set.
And kids just aren't given afair shake.
And I've seen that happen withmy boys where it's just assumed
that they're the ones that didthe bad thing, or they get in
trouble for things.
When I see, I've been there atthe school and I see girls do
something and they're givengrace in those situations where
the boys, it's just like, well,we're going to get them in
(42:00):
trouble and send them to theprincipal's office.
And it's just so frustrating forme to try to raise boys when
they're told that Who you are isnot okay, and you need to
change.
Jamie (42:14):
Well, and I don't, I don't want to step into a whole
different conversation here, butto me, that is an example of why
it is so important to maybe moveaway from some of those
stereotypical gender things.
Imagine a school system whereour kids were evaluated as
individuals, not based on,gender.
(42:36):
what little boys typically doand what little girls typically
do, you know?
I mean, I can sit here and tellyou, I worked daycare for years
with, with small children.
I always had a couple of kidsthat didn't quite follow what
was typical of what I was seeingwith all the other kids.
And why do we have to separateit that way?
Why does school have to be basedon what is typically,
(42:57):
Appropriate and expected ofgirls.
Why can't it just be, we'regoing to do, what's best for the
kids that are in that class and,and same for people, you know,
just like, you know, you look atnon traditional families where
maybe those roles are reversedor different, or, the jobs that
they're taking on are different,they might have some societal
(43:18):
pressures, but those familieshave negotiated what works best
for their family.
As a society, why don't we domore of that?
Why don't we allow people tofill the roles that they fit
best in?
Ben (43:29):
Because that takes work.
Jamie (43:31):
Yeah, well, exactly.
It does take work.
And I think it takes morediversity too.
If you think about the schoolsystem, the largest percentage
of teachers are women.
So of course, what are theygoing to expect?
They're going to expect what'stypical for them and what
they're comfortable with andthings like that.
I'll tell you what, you get amale teacher in a school and
(43:51):
that's everybody's favoriteteacher.
So we're, we're cultivating thisin our kids.
When it's abnormal for dad totake us to the park and play, of
course, we're going to thinkthat's the coolest day ever.
Whereas if we could negotiatethat and make it more equal.
Yeah.
My parents are awesome.
Right?
Not just my mom's school or mydad's school.
(44:11):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Ben (44:12):
Well, here's a hot take.
You're asking about why is itthat way?
Why can't we just haveindividualized schools or
approaches to life?
I think it really has a lot todo with the nature of social
media and just the way that weengage in society today.
The voice that is making itselfheard the most is the voice is
(44:35):
what gets adopted because it'seasier to align yourself with
somebody who is convinced ofwhat's right and what's not and
what's the norm and what isn't.
It's easier to just fall in linewith that than it is to be the
person at the front of the linesaying, You know what?
I'm gonna do this differentlybecause this norm It may be
(44:59):
popular, but this isn't a normfor me, and I can't fit this
mold.
We have a culture of people whoare so uncomfortable with the
idea of being themselves thatit's easier to just wear the
mask or to wear the norm than itis to try to do different
(45:21):
because it takes work, hardwork.
This has been a season oftransformation for me.
Like people have baggage andthat baggage and that trauma
that we carry instead ofunpacking it and sorting through
it and letting it kind of informhow we live our lives.
(45:42):
We instead just set that asideand just go with, you know, the
influencers on TikTok and whatthey're doing and what they say
is the right thing to do.
I genuinely think that if peoplewere brave enough to sit with
their shit, I'm not sure ifwe're allowed to swear on these
shows, but, but if people werebrave enough to sit with the
(46:05):
shit, Look at Mahlon.
and unpack it, can you imaginewhat the world would be like if
people, instead of just buyinginto these norms and these
stereotypes, and this, thisgroupthink that is so prevalent
in society today, what if wejust said, you know what, that
(46:25):
doesn't work for me.
I'm gonna figure out what does,but to do that you really have
to be okay with facing a lot ofyour inner demons, facing a lot
of pain and trauma from the pastthat's caused you to just go
with what the group says versusfinding out what's right for
you.
(46:46):
Yeah.
Jamie (46:47):
Well, I'm going to give you a little behind the scenes
peek for a second because I'mabout to say something that
Mahlon absolutely loves when Isay,,
Mahlon (46:53):
if you say empathy, if you say the word empathy, I
swear, no,
Jamie (46:56):
no, no, no, not empathy, no empathy.
I think what's interesting aboutwhat you're saying is that we
are looking at this from such anAmericanized point of view.
And if you look at other, othercultures, other countries, you
know, there are countries wheremama makes the choices and mama
makes the rules.
And, you know, and these, thesethings don't look the same in
(47:17):
every society.
I think what we're talking aboutis uniquely American.
And How we choose to moveforward through that is going to
make a huge impact on what itlooks like moving forward.
I was watching a Netflix show,The Crown.
It's, I'm, I'm a crown junkie.
I love the royal family and allthat fun stuff.
I, I vaguely remember when I wasyounger, the first female prime
(47:41):
minister in England, and thatwas in, what was that?
Like the nineties, like earlynineties, I think.
And we still haven't had a womanpresident in this country,
right?
There's still, for some reason,there's some spaces that are not
accessible to me yet.
until we can figure out that I Iam just as capable of doing
those jobs as as my malecounterparts.
(48:03):
That's when we'll start to seereal shifting in our, in our
culture, in our society.
Yeah.
Mahlon (48:10):
Here's what I'll say.
He can't help himself.
He's got a pen in his
Ben (48:16):
hand.
It's like he's been takingnotes.
Pen in hand and everything.
Yeah, I'm like,
Mahlon (48:20):
just a second.
Um, no, again, it doesn't matterif you're a male or a female.
Can everybody do a job?
Yes.
My question and I think Jamie,this goes back to our wonderful
episode of gender inequality inthe workplace.
I believe that there is abiological element to gender and
(48:40):
I think there are some thingsthat are going to be different
in our personalities and in ourabilities.
We can't always say a man and awoman will always be exactly the
same because we're different.
That doesn't mean that we can'thave a male do a job that's
typically done by female and youcan't have a female do a job
that's typically done by a male.
That's not at all what I'msaying, but I think there has to
(49:01):
be some recognition to say thereis something different between a
man and a woman that in somecases it may lend itself to be
done better by a man than awoman, but also there's probably
situations that can be done by awoman.
That's better than a man.
Doesn't mean that you omit one,one gender from doing that than
the other.
(49:22):
But I think you have torecognize that there are
differences.
And that's one of the thingsthat I was trying to get at with
that question earlier is, is oneof the new expectations we're
forming is that men and womenare always exactly the same.
And I don't think that'srealistic.
I don't think we'll ever getthere because of a variety of
different elements that factorinto that.
(49:42):
And that's all I wanted to say,JB.
I think that a woman presidentis possible.
I think a man president, we'veall seen it as possible.
I just think that we, we, wewould be fooling ourselves as a
society.
In my humble opinion.
If we think a man and a womanwill always be exactly the same,
I think we're going to setourselves up for disappointment
(50:03):
and failure.
But
Ben (50:04):
I also think that that can be a cop out Mahlon and I'm not
just, taking a shot at you.
This is not a cheap shot.
I don't disagree with you thatmen and women are biologically
different.
That's obvious.
Men have broader shoulders thanwomen.
Women are typically able to havechildren unless nature decides
(50:26):
otherwise.
So naturally, yes, there arethings that women can do that
men will never be able to do.
And there are things that mencan do that women will struggle
to do.
Here's the thing though youdon't stop there.
That can't be the finish line tothe conversation and just be
like, well, that's just how itis.
No, that's like the startingline.
(50:48):
As a man, obviously I'm notgoing to be able to give birth,
but what are the things thatsociety is putting on women that
I can help with?
I'm a sensitive dude.
And in my case, I've come tolearn that I actually can be a
very nurturing dad.
And that my kids can come to meand find that in me.
(51:11):
It's something that typically ismore of a feminine trait or more
of a mother's role to be thatnurturer.
But I have that ability and Ihave that skill.
It's up to me as a man to say,you know what, this is outside
of the norm.
And this is might rock the boata little bit, but in order to be
(51:33):
true to me and true to myfamily, this is how I'm going to
show up in this moment.
I am going to be the nurturer ofthe family.
In my relationship with my wife,she's the mom, she's also the
one that kind of lays down thelaw and is the enforcer.
And that's typically somethingthat the dad does.
(51:57):
I think we could all agree thatthere are things that women do.
Either are the only ones thatcan do them or they're better
suited to do them, but thatdoesn't give us an out to look
for those nuances where perhapsin this specific makeup, in this
(52:17):
family, in this relationship,this is what I bring to the
table as a man, even though it'snot manly and gosh darn it, I'm
going to be true to that.
It pains us to press the pausebutton on this conversation.
It's just so good.
But we also recognize that youhave a whole host of things that
(52:40):
you need to get to.
So if you're sitting in thedriveway waiting for this
episode to end before you go in,well, you now have permission to
pause.
Go inside.
We'll see you next week as wecontinue this conversation with
the round table mindset podcast.
Jim (52:57):
And remember real men hug, but they also collaborate with
local podcasters.
Ben (53:03):
And remember real men hug, but they also round table
mindset.
Jim (53:09):
And remember real men hug, but they also don't fall into
societal expectations of whatyou should or shouldn't be in a
particular gender, in aparticular time, space, or
social setting.
Ben (53:20):
And remember real men hug, but real men don't need a kudos
for being a dad in public.
That's right.
Real man hug and hurdy durdydur.
Hurdy dur.
Welcome to Real Men Hug, a podcast for men and the women
who love them.
I'm Ben.
Jim (00:07):
And I'm Jim.
Ben (00:09):
Today we have a treat for you.
Jim (00:11):
I am so excited to introduce to you Roundtable
Mindset.
We are in kind of like acollaboration group on Facebook
with some other podcasters andRoundtable Mindset was the first
one.
Not only that introduced us tothat group, but also that we
really keyed in on, because Ijust love their content.
(00:33):
They ask those tough questionsand have raw conversations like
on our podcast.
And there's just a synergybetween our two podcasts, unlike
any other, I just.
Absolutely have loved listeningto some of their episodes.
And I'm so excited to haveMahlon and Jamie on our show
today.
Ben (00:52):
If you like Ben and Jim, you are going to love these two.
We had such a blast recordingwith them.
So excited for you to listen.
So let's jump in.
Jim (01:01):
Let's jump in.
All right.
I got to say, I am so excited tobe here today with Roundtable
Mindset.
Been a fan of your show for, Ithink we were introduced to your
show probably maybe a month ortwo ago.
I've listened to a few episodesand just so excited to have you
(01:21):
guys as the first people that wecollaborate with.
So just really excited to behere and have this conversation
with you.
Mahlon (01:30):
Well, we're honored.
To be your first.
Let me just say it that way.
Jamie (01:35):
Excited to be here.
This is gonna be fun.
Well, I was gonna say,
Mahlon (01:39):
Jim, you're using our word excited.
That's, we've cornered, by thispoint, we should have had that
trademarked to our show becausewe say it all the time.
Jamie (01:49):
Was it we, or was it me?
Cause I can't come up with otherwords, but it's exciting.
And we're excited to be here.
Everything's really exciting.
Mahlon (01:56):
I was trying to take some heat off of you, Jamie.
So, but it is you, it is you.
Jamie (02:01):
I'll own it.
It's fine.
Jim (02:02):
I think our trademark is a hundred percent.
Ben (02:06):
Well, that's my trademark.
I'll, I'll own that one too.
A hundred percent.
Jamie (02:10):
Well, so now we all know what the merch is, right?
Like a hundred percent.
That's right.
Excited.
Yes.
Oh, look at that.
Look at that.
We should get merch for ourcollaboration.
Oh my goodness.
Mahlon (02:21):
Well, I will say, I don't know if this is needed or
not, but this is Mahlon fromRound Table Mindsets.
Nice to meet everyone.
I will say, I have been a bigfan of Real Men Hug since the
very first episode.
I know, for me,, I don't think Iconsider myself a typical male,
sports or something that I cantake or leave.
I'm not really interested inlike a lot of the male driven
(02:43):
activities.
You know, I have some friendsthat are really into cars and
sports and all this other stuff,heavy metal.
I mean, as a kid and none ofthat really kind of spoke to me.
And so I felt like I was kind ofremoved from what a mainstream
male was.
I've just kind of lived with it,and I've just kind of grown up
and became an adult and had afamily of my own, all just kind
(03:05):
of with this understanding thatI was just different, and there
wasn't a lot of people that Icould relate to, and then I hear
your guys podcast, and what Ilove about it is you say a lot
of the things that I am feelingor that I've experienced, and
you don't make apologies for it.
And I think that's somethingthat I've learned from myself,
um, that I've done is that I'vejust made myself smaller
(03:27):
sometimes, especially aroundother, other guys, or I've
apologized for it.
And that's one thing that afterlistening to your episodes, I
realized I don't need to dothat.
And I shouldn't be doing thatbecause I am my own person and I
don't want to fit into any kindof stereotypical mold.
And I'm okay with that, I think,or at least I'm trying to be.
(03:49):
I love your guys episodes inyour podcast.
Jamie (03:51):
You guys had me at real men hug, just the title of the
podcast.
I was so interested in that.
I prefer podcasts that bring adifferent perspective and help
me see things in a differentway.
To just learn about differentviewpoints and perspectives has
been really helpful for me.
It's just part of, it's part ofmy jam.
I nerd out over things likethat.
I've really enjoyed, hearing youguys.
Jim (04:10):
Yeah.
Well, Ben and I look up to youas a show.
You guys are amazing.
A step in front of us.
You've been recording for a yearnow, right?
It's been a year that you'rerecording
Mahlon (04:21):
just celebrated.
So we've just now hit a year.
So in some ways we're your firstcollaboration and you're our one
year guests.
So welcome and happy birthday tous.
Jamie.
Ben (04:34):
Yeah, happy birthday to the round table mindset.
Yeah, I'm looking forward towhen we get to a year.
We've got 10 episodes.
That was our latest celebration.
Yeah, and it's been a blast andMahlon what you were saying
about Not apologizing for whoyou are I just wanted to,, stand
(04:54):
up and shout yes, that, ahundred percent.
I spent probably the better partof 35 years,.
Feeling bad for being different.
Feeling like I had to apologizeto the world for being overly
sensitive for Not being a sportsfan.
I'm turning 40 next week, by thetime listeners hear this, I'll
(05:17):
be 40 I'm done apologizing topeople for being who I am.
I am the guy that will go to acoffee shop with my journal and
just sit and listen to lo fimusic and write in my journal.
There's this big dude over inthe corner and he's journaling
and tearing up.
(05:38):
I don't feel the need to hidethat from people.
what you said, Mahlon hit thenail on the head for me.
I just want to be authenticallyme, even if that means breaking
some societal norms andexpectations.
There's just so many unwrittenand written expectations that
society puts on both men andwomen.
(06:00):
And I'm excited about unpackingthose here today.
Jamie (06:06):
That's awesome.
Mahlon (06:07):
Absolutely.
And, and Ben, I'm kind offinding out that you were the
king of transitions because man,that was slick.
That was smooth.
What you just did there.
That's pretty, that's prettygood.
Yeah.
I'm like, bravo.
Ben (06:17):
It's not my first rodeo.
Jamie (06:19):
That's fantastic.
Cause even after a year, we haveto announce our segways.
I am here to segway.
Mahlon (06:27):
For those of you who are missing it, we are moving on to
the next point right now.
Okay.
Ben (06:33):
And here it is.
That's the kind of thing thatJim would be like, Ben, stop
being Mr.
Whittaker over there.
Jim (06:38):
No, that was a good one, Ben.
That would have been a littlegolf clap for you.
Mahlon (06:44):
I'll second that.
One of the things that I'mexcited to talk specifically
with the three of you, but, uh,Jim and Ben, to get your
perspective, there's theseexpectations that are floating
around.
And I know when we all startedgetting together and kind of
saying, Hey, what are we goingto collaborate on?
This was something that was kindof percolating in the back of my
brain because I was hearing yourguys's podcast because I was
(07:07):
experiencing things personally,because as I'm getting older,
I'm just feeling less and less,I'm feeling tired of having to
make excuses for myself justbecause of who I am and when,
you know, Jamie and I on some ofour previous episodes, we've
tackled some gender.
Specific topics and it can getpretty heated and it can get
pretty, divisive just becauseit's a very passionate
(07:30):
conversation, but that stilldoesn't mean that there's not
things there that we should betalking about.
And so the expectations that weset on each other from a male's
point of view and a female'spoint of view, um.
I am all about us talkingthrough those because I think
that happens today in a lot ofdifferent ways.
And it's almost like rules ofengagement of life.
(07:51):
you don't necessarily purposelythink about them because they've
always been there.
And I'm really excited for thisgroup to kind of talk through
those and sorry, Jamie, but Iknow as you kind of being the
only female voice.
You can't be every woman, likeyou've said, but I'm looking to
you to kind of bring us thatthat woman's point of view,
because that's the point of viewthat I can't, I can't have as
(08:15):
much as I look on the outside,I'll never be able to experience
it the way that you experienceit.
Jamie (08:22):
Well, I just want to clarify that Oprah says I can be
every woman.
So I'm going to go with it forthis episode.
Jim (08:28):
All right.
So Jamie's every woman and we'lldo our best to represent the
three of us.
Right.
Mahlon (08:37):
I feel like there's stereotypes within the roles of
men and women that I thinkthey've been there for the
longest time.
And are they okay that they staythere?
Should we be trying to changethem?
So can we start withstereotypes?
Ben (08:49):
Who's got a stereotype to unpack?
Jamie (08:51):
Mahlon's full of them.
Mahlon (08:53):
Oh, I got a small one that just drives me absolutely
nuts.
And I even hesitate talkingabout it because it's so weird
because they've always beenthere, but I've always been
under the impression, theexpectation that's kind of set
before me.
If there is a spider in theroom, I am the resident spider
(09:13):
killer.
I have to be the one that goesand, and destroys it and gets it
out of the room.
It's one of those things that Idon't mind that role, I guess,
but I don't want it to beexpected.
I always do it as a kid.
I was terrified of spiders.
I had arachnophobia really badto the point where I would sit
there and start sweating ifthere was a spider in the room
and the expectation, even when Iwas a kid, if I was there with
(09:35):
my mom and my sister, I was theone that had to go and kill the
spider just because I was, Iguess the, the guy in the room,
the man, I don't think that'sfair.
I don't think that that'snecessarily something that has
to be there because I am theresident boy or the male in the
room.
Jamie (09:53):
I don't mind taking care of a spider.
If there's a snake, it's a wholedifferent story, I'm just
saying, like, then yes, I'mgoing to want someone who is
braver than I to go take care ofthe snake.
you know, what's interesting nowthat you say that, that totally
was, how it was set up in myhouse when I was married and
younger.
And then I was a single mom.
(10:14):
And we moved into an apartmentthat had been empty for a bit
and had spiders.
And then guess what?
I was the biggest, bravestperson in the room and I got to
kill the spiders.
I guess I hadn't thought thatcould be a thing, spider killer.
Jim (10:27):
You know, I think stereotypes are just kind of a
shortcut that our brain takes totry to understand something
that's not familiar to us.
Right?
So sometimes stereotypes I thinkcan be healthy as long as we are
okay with adjusting them whenprovided with different
information.
So when you have a relationshipwhere that stereotype doesn't
(10:49):
work, then you figure it out.
Like if you are the man, butyou're allergic to bees, deathly
allergic, And there's a bee inthe house, normally you kill the
bugs, but maybe this time it'syour wife that does it because
you don't want to have a severeallergic reaction.
I think as long as you have thatwillingness to adapt your
(11:10):
understanding.
I don't know, I don't, I don'tthink they're always a bad thing
necessarily, at least to startwith that level of
understanding.
Ben (11:19):
But they do get bad at times.
And my example of a stereotypethat went bad is something that
I was trying to remember on ourlast episode of Real Men Hug.
We did an episode of marriage.
Jim had this great story aboutforgetting to order his wife
Jimmy John's.
And I'm just relishing, punintended, the story and not able
(11:42):
to think of my own story ofsomething similar.
It came to me finally and itfits very well here.
My stereotype was this.
It was middle of winter inMichigan being from the Midwest.
You guys probably understandthat winters can be a pain and
it gets cold.
It gets, you know, the wind isblowing, the snow is falling.
(12:05):
We were in Holland, Michigan,which is very close to Lake
Michigan.
And it's just like a blizzardand my wife needs gas and I'm
with her in the car, she'sdriving.
In my mind, the stereotype hasalways been if you're driving,
you're responsible for pumpingyour own gas.
We stop to get gas and we'resitting at the pump and she's
(12:29):
just sitting in her seat and nottaking her seatbelt off and not
getting up to pump gas.
And I'm in the passenger seatjust completely oblivious and
finally, it must have been 30seconds or a minute, I just
looked at her and I was like, Ithought you said we were getting
gas.
And she, in a very disgruntledmanner, says, What kind of
(12:51):
boyfriend doesn't pump gas forhis girlfriend in the freezing
cold blizzard of Michigan?
And then she slams her handagainst the steering wheel and
opens the door dramatically andjumps out and pumps her own gas.
And I'm just sitting in the carlike, what just happened?
And so that, to me, like we bothhad competing stereotypes.
(13:14):
Who's right?
Does the driver pump gas or isit the boyfriend?
Because he's the dude in therelationship and it's supposed
to do the hard things, likewhich stereotype is right.
Jamie (13:26):
See, and I'm sitting here thinking, huh, sounds like a
typical young relationship, lackof communication.
Right.
Like I think that I, and Ithink.
Stereotype is one thing.
Cause I feel like stereotypesare something that society puts
on us.
And some of these things I feellike are more, um, like what we
just bring to relationship,right?
(13:47):
Like whenever we have thoseinteractions, I think that how
we were raised or what You know,what, what the landscape was
when we were young and cominginto these spaces really plays a
huge part in how we interact, asmen and women or what our
expectations are.
For instance, I, I hate outside.
(14:09):
I hate bugs.
So lawn work is not a thing forme.
I'm not going to be mowing thelawn.
Right?
So when I came into marriage,when I was like 23 years old, it
was just assumed that this ishow this was going to work,
right?
He was going to mow the lawn.
I was going to do the cooking.
Cause I was None of us wantedhot dogs every night of the
(14:30):
week.
That came from where, how wewere raised, right?
That came from the way that wewere brought up.
I wonder, is that a stereotypething or is that more like
societal expectations of genderroles?
Jim (14:42):
I think that is a good example that typically people
assume that the guy is out doingthe yard work and that the wife
is doing the cooking, but that'snot always the case.
And sometimes it switches, likein Ben's relationship, I know
it, it kind of swapped halfwaythrough there, so.
Ben (15:02):
More than halfway through.
More than halfway.
It was like three fourths of theway through, let's be honest.
I continue to struggle withthat.
And 17 years later, we're stillmarried.
Thank goodness.
But it's been rough.
There's been a lot of thosemoments where I just assumed
that things are this way and wedon't communicate about it.
(15:25):
And then one of us gets upsetbecause we're not seeing eye to
eye on something.
As far as gender roles go in, inour setting, my wife was
responsible for basicallyeverything up until within the
last year or two, it's fluid.
And I think that's one of thethings that has been most
(15:47):
impactful for me aboutunderstanding expectations and
gender norms and all of that.
I used to think of them aswritten in stone and there's
nothing I can do about them.
But the truth is they're fluidand I have the ability to say
what I want for myself and whatexpectations I'm going to put on
(16:10):
myself.
That's been a huge moment ofawakening for me of just
realizing.
I can go against the grain ofwhat other people say, and it's
okay, and in fact, it's healthy.
And so that's been the discoveryfor me.
Mahlon (16:28):
I agree with all of that.
I guess where I have a problemwith expectations set from the
genders, from a man to a womanor a woman to a man, is that
sometimes they're rooted intradition, sometimes they're
rooted in Some of your faith, Ithink, could maybe spill in
this, how you were raised isprobably really a big point of
view or a big, factor into it.
(16:50):
What drives me nuts is that ifthey're established and these
expectations are set then theystart changing or you start
getting challenged on them.
Once that's been set in stonefor you for so many years It's
hard to start adapting and Ithink in today's society.
There's this expectation thatOh, we've now learned something
new.
(17:10):
Everybody needs to shift.
And maybe this is me kind of, asI'm getting older, I'm
understanding that shiftingdoesn't happen as fast for me as
it did when I was younger.
And again, I don't know ifthat's a mental thing.
I don't know if that's a agething.
I don't know if that's agenerational thing.
But it doesn't matter because,that's true.
Where I started gettingfrustrated is, okay, that used
(17:31):
to be how things were.
That was an expectation thatused to be set.
Now that's changing from asocietal point of view.
If I'm not changing as fast aswhat society deems it to be,
Then I'm wrong.
People start saying things to meor you start noticing at work or
even around maybe your friendgroup or even your, you know,
day to day with your, your wifeor your significant other.
(17:54):
And I don't think that's fairbecause there should be some
accountability and there shouldbe some recognition to say, this
is something that has eitherbeen ingrained and maybe as a
small child, I was raised with acertain point of view and to
expect it to be just changedlike a light switch.
I think there needs to be someaccommodation for that, and
people need to have someawareness that people are
(18:14):
probably changing at their ownrate, and they need to recognize
that if it's not as far as longas they are, doesn't mean
they're not trying, it doesn'tmean that it's not moving.
It just means that it's in theprocess, and people are coming
along, and some people may onlybe able to bend so far.
And that's as far as they'llever going to get.
Jim (18:32):
Mahlon.
I think that's a great point.
That's at least on my end.
I know that was one of the hugereasons why I was drawn to this
topic, because I think we areseeing that huge shift where
it's just harder to survive.
In this economy than it, than itused to be.
You know, it used to be that oneperson could go to work, get it
(18:53):
done.
You could buy a house, you know,almost immediately after getting
married, if not immediatelyafter getting married, and it
just sort of rolled into thenext step and the next step.
And it doesn't negate the hardwork that went along the way,
but now you have more dualincome households that.
People can't even afford a houseanymore, but for a while we
(19:14):
still had that same expectationthat, Oh, well, if you, if
somebody is not staying homewith the kids, then you're a bad
person.
How could you possibly do that?
Somebody should be with thekids.
Why aren't you?
Well, because I can't afford it.
And then what if one person likein my household, my wife, her
hourly salary is more than mine.
(19:35):
Should she be the one who isworking more?
And then if that's the case,then a lot of those traditional
female roles and householdchores and raising the kids, do
those go to me because I makeless money or do I work more
hours because I'm the man and mywife stays home and she just has
to work?
And do all the stuff at home towe're not living in the same
(19:56):
world, but we're still beingtold all of those same
expectations.
But then, in my opinion, we havethis whole new world view coming
out of nowhere that's saying,well, no, that's all wrong.
And we're just going to dothings completely differently.
And I feel as a man myself, it'slike, I don't even know what to
do and being a typical and.
(20:17):
Kind of having grown upconservative, but having also a
lot of some things, a liberalmindset where I agree on this
side of things.
I feel like no matter what Ithink and do, I'm making
somebody upset and I just don'tknow what.
I'm supposed to do or how I'msupposed to act without somebody
being like, Nope, you're doingit wrong.
Jamie (20:37):
What's interesting is I feel like it's still kind of a
novelty and I think, you know,like a stay at home dad
situation or something like thatis super novelty to me still.
But I think what's interestingis how, how different.
The expectation is, and, andit's interesting to me to look
backwards too, because, my, mymom was coming up in the age of,
(21:00):
you know, women's empowerment Iam woman, hear me roar was like
my mom's life theme orsomething, right?
So beat into my head, you arejust as good.
Being a woman doesn't make youless than.
However, in her relationshipwith my dad, it was very
traditional and typical of thegeneration.
(21:22):
Right.
And I look back to things likeadvertising Women made a bulk of
the purchasing choices withtheir husband's money.
All the advertising was aboutbeing ready for dinner when he
comes home with this beautifulnew Frigidaire fridge, you know,
like all of these differentthings.
What excites me is the massiveshift that I've seen and what I
(21:44):
see moving forward.
And, you know, I don't thinkwe're, I don't think we're there
yet.
I don't think we're done.
And I, I feel like at my house,it was pretty traditional,
traditional, I'm using airquotes because.
I don't know that it's astraditional as my mind sees it,
but around me, it's verytraditional that if the kids
were sick, I was home, right?
(22:05):
If there was a meeting atschool, I attended.
If the kids needed to go to thedoctor, that was my job.
But at the same time.
I chose that.
I chose to do that because itwas important to me and that was
okay with me.
And I think that's probably whythe space feels like if I think
this way or do this thing, itfeels wrong because I think
we're sandwiching in betweenshifting and it makes me wonder
(22:28):
if my mom was in that samespace.
Jim (22:32):
We wanted to take a break in the middle of this
conversation we're having withround table mindset to remind
you that we have got this newcampaign that you can help
support our show.
Buy me a coffee.
It's in the show notes.
We've got it up on the episodenotes and the Facebook page, so
be sure to check out.
Buy me a coffee.
(22:53):
I also wanted to give a heartyshout out to Sarah Yoder for
giving us a legendary hug on ourbuy me a coffee platform because
of.
Sarah's donation.
We were able to immediately turnaround and get a couple cameras
for our show that we've beenwanting to get.
We had another member also hopon and give us a legendary hug.
(23:18):
Blown away by the support thatwe've been getting from our
listeners.
That we're able to turn aroundand put that money into the show
by getting better audio andvisual equipment so that we can
continue to do this for you.
So thank you so much to ourlisteners for supporting the
show.
If you haven't yet, and you wantto check out, buy me a coffee,
(23:39):
be sure to find those links.
We would love any amount ofsupport from our listeners.
It helps us do what we do.
Ben (23:45):
So check it out at buymeacoffee.
com slash real men hug.
And know that it certainly makesa huge difference for Jim and I
both.
Mahlon (23:57):
What's hard for me is I never realized growing up just
how Different I was.
My mom did the majority of thehousework, but she didn't do it
alone.
From the time that I was insecond grade, going forward, I
had a chore list that I had todo.
I was doing my own laundry whenI was in the second grade.
(24:17):
I was doing the laundry.
I was making the beds.
I made not only my bed, butother people's beds.
I did take out the, the trash.
I mean, everybody in the househelped, but my mom kind of ran
the household and she alsoworked.
I didn't realize how uncommonthat was.
And then I'd go over to people'shouses I would pick up my dishes
and I'd go rinse them off andput them in the sink.
(24:38):
And they would be like, what areyou doing that for?
My mom will take care of that.
And it's like, no, you shouldtake care of it for yourself.
I didn't even realize that, butthat's what my mom was teaching.
My mom was teaching me to say,you need to be independent.
So my mom, as a young man wasteaching me, you don't need to
be dependent on a woman to takecare of you.
And on the flip side, youshouldn't expect a woman to take
(24:59):
care of you.
That's not their role.
Their role isn't just to bethere and serve your needs, you
should also learn how to takecare of yourself.
And I didn't realize that lessonshe was teaching me was so much
in the future.
Jamie, I know you made thecomment of, living off of your
husband's money.
My wife and I, she's a stay athome mom and I'm the one that's
in the workforce.
And that conversation has comeup several times in our marriage
(25:22):
with friends.
They say things like.
Are you okay with Kim spendingyour money or Kim?
How are you feeling with, Mahlonmaking the money?
The way we have to look at thatis it's not just one of our, our
paychecks that come in.
I might be earning it, but weboth get it and That's one thing
we've had a fight for a verylong time is that even if I'm in
(25:43):
the workforce earning it, it'snot just my money.
A lot of people seem to have aproblem with that, or at least
the ability to see that it'sboth of our money, even though
one of us is earning it.
Jamie (25:55):
I wonder how much of that is that there aren't a whole lot
of stay at home parents anymoreThere's probably not as many
families who are able to do thatas there used to be because of
the economy and the times welive in, both parents really
have to work most of the time.
It's just like, how do you dothis?
Jim (26:11):
Yeah, no, statistically, there are not as many single
income households as there usedto be.
But that's, I guess the point Iwas trying to get at is there's
still these holdovers from thefact that there very much was
this traditional nuclearhousehold where you.
The man earns the money and the,the woman stays at home.
(26:32):
As an example my wife worksnights, which means a lot of
times she's sleeping during theday.
If there's an email or a callfrom school, maybe, it happens
to be a day that she's up, butthere's a good chance that she's
sleeping.
Every time we're filling outthose papers, Here's dad's
number.
(26:53):
Here's very clearly written out,do not call Melissa, my wife.
Here's her number just in case,but call Jim.
And we explain the situation,and who do they call?
They call my wife, becausethat's what you do.
You call the woman, right?
She's the one who's organizingeverything.
She's the one who's knowingwhat's going on with the kids.
(27:15):
And it's this huge stereotypethat we had to fight.
It took like two years for theschool to finally get no.
Jim is the one who responds tocalls.
And I'm like, I'm sorry, but mywife has the patience of a
mayfly.
You don't want to talk to her.
She's sleep deprived and annoyedthat she's talking to you
instead of sleeping.
(27:35):
So you probably want to talk tome, but that's something that
we've had to fight because.
Those teachers and the principaland whoever, they just assume
that, well, of course, it's thewife who is advocating for the
kids and showing up.
There's this huge holdover thatyou have to fight.
Ben (27:52):
Definitely.
That is identical to how it'sbeen with my wife, Andi, and I,
if a teacher emails the parentabout something, I'm typically
the one that's replying and eventhough I sign my name and make
it very clear at the end that itwas from me, teachers will
respond and they'll be like, Oh,Andi, thank you for that
(28:14):
information.
And I'm just like, what?
I even said it was me.
I've started the emails bysaying, this is Ben, just to
make it abundantly clear.
we have a joint email addressand it's kind of funny because.
It's Ben, Andi, and then ourlast name.
I think people look at that andinstead of reading Ben, Andi,
(28:36):
they read Ben and I.
And so they assume that it's thewoman having the pressure to
have the man's name on the emailaddress, but it's actually her.
So yeah, it's just this crazything.
Mahlon (28:50):
I will say the last episode that I listened to Real
Men Hug, I really felt convictedbecause What you guys are just
talking about that is aexpectation stereotype that I
fall in very nicely.
I am comfortable with letting mywife just handle all of those
situations with the kids and Ibelieve it was in your last
episode about marriage where youtalked about the mental load.
(29:13):
everything that you were sayingin your example, I was like,
Ouch, ouch, ouch.
I'm doing all of that.
I actually went to my wife andapologized to her.
I said, I am allowing you totake all of this responsibility
on and it's unfair that I'm not,even asking to help Chip in or
even taking a little bit off.
And it truly wasn't until Ilistened to that episode that I
(29:35):
realized there's a lot that goeson her plate that I just expect
that she's going to do that.
Be it either her gender or be itthat she's a stay at home mom.
We had a really niceconversation and I think going
forward, we're going to see someimprovement.
Some might say too little toolate as our kids are aging, but
again, where, where realizationcomes in, that's where I can
(29:56):
start changing it.
To go one step further as I'mdoing self reflection now, I
didn't even care if my wifeagreed with it or not, because I
wasn't even asking if she agreedwith it.
That's how it was set up andthat's what we were going to do.
And I realized now that there'sother areas that I'm going to
have to start inspecting andhave those, conversations to
say, this is an expectation.
(30:17):
Is this your same expectation?
And if not, where do we have toadjust?
And that is something that Ihaven't done before.
And I'm looking forward to it.
It's all coming together at theright time for me, I guess.
Jamie (30:30):
You know, it wasn't until recently that I understood that
idea of mental load.
I'm a working mom.
My kids are grown and out of thehouse now.
Yay.
There would be times where Iwould get to that space and I
would just lose my crap, and Icouldn't figure out why.
It's just been recently thatI've realized, those plates that
I was juggling all the time andnot understanding that I was
(30:51):
taking on all of those roles.
I was taking all of thoseresponsibilities on because I
was the parent, the parent, mypartner is definitely part of
their lives and super supportiveand does those things, but a lot
of those things he couldn't do.
I have all of those homeexpectations with my family, but
then I have all theseexpectations at work too.
that's been a huge driver forthis shift, in my opinion, in,
(31:14):
in expectation, because it wasdifferent when.
Most moms stayed home with kidsand most dads went out to work.
Now that both parents areworking, we have to start
shifting some of those loads alittle bit and share, that
mental load one person can't doall of that at the same time.
and I think it's been too slowto shift.
(31:34):
That's part of why I thinkthere's a lot of heavy criticism
and scrutiny over those typicalgender expectations because, I
don't know that we've known thatthis was an issue for a while.
I didn't even recognize it formyself for a long time.
Jim (31:51):
And I think you're just left feeling tired and you don't
know why, because that's alwaysjust been the assumption that
the woman takes care of it andyou are just left frustrated.
I think of like Ben and Andisituation.
Andi probably was like, well,yeah, Ben, maybe because you
don't help around here.
And Ben in his traditional rolesthings.
(32:12):
Well, yeah, because you know,I'm out making money and then I
go.
Go back home and I put my feetup, you know, we sort of use
that analogy of the plane, theair masks coming down and Ben
sitting there making sure hegets his peanuts to snack on.
And meanwhile, everyone'spassing out around him.
And really, it is that culturalshift that we have to recognize
that I think women have beenShouldering so much more of that
(32:36):
burden because now they have towork and do everything around
the house.
And even when you have somebodywho is aware of mental load and
trying to help, then you havethose outside forces like the
school in my example, that'strying hard to make it continue
to be something that the womanhas to continue doing.
Jamie (32:57):
I work with families a lot.
No shade to the single dads.
Okay.
The single dads who are bustingit and working hard to do that.
Absolutely no shade.
But what's interesting to me ishow.
accolades are for single dads,dads who are not following the
traditional mom's taking thekids and dads get them every
other weekend, but vice versa.
(33:19):
it's almost, disheartening tosee how much congratulations and
extra support and, Oh, my heartgoes out to that guy cause he's
just doing the right thing forhis kids.
And I'm thinking, you know,Dude, this has been going on
forever, it's just anexpectation that single moms are
going to do what single moms aregoing to do.
And they're going to, they'regoing to take the world by storm
because they have to.
(33:40):
And here the dads are gettingall this applause and how
amazing are you?
You know?
Oh yeah.
Mahlon (33:44):
Drives, drives my wife.
Absolutely.
Nuts.
Absolutely
Jim (33:48):
not.
I my wife is going to belistening to this laughing
because we have literally aninside joke when I go out with
the kids.
She's like, okay, who told youyou're a great dad this time?
Because she will go out andpeople are like judging her and
stuff.
I like, why can't you get yourkids under control?
And I'm sitting there likeskipping through the aisles with
(34:10):
the cart.
And people are like, Oh, look atyou.
You're doing such a good jobwith those kids.
I was yelling at my kid in theparking lot., I, I rarely ever
yell.
He goes running out between twosets of cars and he almost got
hit by a car.
And so I yelled at him in theparking lot.
Like.
Dude, that can't happen.
And I see this guy walking up tome, I'm like, great, like this
(34:33):
guy's going to sit here and tellme that you shouldn't yell at
your kid, blah, blah, blah.
He waits for me to shut the doorto the car.
And then he just goes, good job,dad.
I told my wife, she's like, ofcourse, if it would have been
me, they would have told me howterrible of a mother I was
yelling at my kid
Jamie (34:49):
that they would have called CFS.
They would have called you in.
Mahlon (34:54):
When I help out at the school that's where it really
drives my wife nuts.
She works at the school and thenshe also volunteers from time to
time at the school and it's sofunny But when she's there It's
almost like, yeah, and I go foran afternoon for three hours and
I walk out of there wearing acrown and have a robe on..
I mean, it's like, I've reallydone something.
(35:15):
Yeah.
And I'm like, one of the thingsthough, that really kind of
gnaws on me about this whole,Expectation is I cannot stand it
when I'm with my kids and thishappened a lot when I when they
were younger and They would seeme at the park or I'd be doing
something and somebody wouldcome and be like, oh you
babysitting the kids today No,they're my children.
(35:37):
I'm not babysitting them I'm notthat just drove me nuts.
I'm like, no, I'm notbabysitting my own children, but
thanks for asking
Jamie (35:45):
Isn't just the language alone, just like puts an
exclamation point on thoseroles.
I'm super glad to see thosekinds of things shifting.
I'm glad that my daughter willmake, a world that that.
It may not be the same for heras it is now.
And that's an exciting thing.
Jim (36:05):
We should criticize men every bit as much as women is
what you're saying.
That's what I'm hearing, right?
Jamie (36:12):
Equal opportunity criticism.
That's right.
For me, everyone should feelterrible.
Mahlon (36:18):
You're all doing a bad job, right?
Ben (36:22):
Just hearing Jim talk about.
That experience of being at thegrocery store with the kids and
then hearing Mahlon talk aboutthe school volunteering and how
he, he left with a crown.
That's just been a major ahamoment for me, even sitting here
recording.
It is so true.
The moms who do this every damnday never get any praise or
(36:46):
kudos or pats on the back.
If anything, they get thecriticism.
They get the calls.
And I've experienced it as well,being the dad and doing the
things and getting all of theaffirmation.
Not once have I paused to think,my wife never gets this kind of
treatment.
So, I'm over here having an ahha moment.
(37:06):
So, thanks guys.
I appreciate it.
Jamie (37:08):
What I love is that this idea that mom's nurture and
dad's, teach and guide anddiscipline right.
But, um, I love that that isshifting.
Dads that are 10 years youngerthan me or 15 years younger than
me that are so invested inraising men who, are emotionally
(37:30):
intelligent and, and young menwho, take care of other people
and care for other people andhave some sense of
responsibility to other people.
That is an incredible shift thatI'm seeing in, younger parents
and, younger families.
Dad's need to nurture just asmuch as mom's need to nurture.
Right.
mom needs to be empowered todiscipline and, and set
(37:53):
boundaries just as much as dadcan set boundaries and, and
discipline too.
That's going to make us betteras a people moving forward.
Yeah.
Mahlon (38:02):
I have some thoughts around that.
Jamie (38:08):
Welcome to the round table guys.
Mahlon (38:09):
No, I don't want people to hear it as I am disagreeing
because I, I'm not, I think it'sgreat that they're shifting from
my point of view.
And again, I'm making this aboutme, so I can't say this about
all men.
And I'm glad I Jim and been hereto kind of bring their
perspective.
But I will say.
there is something to say about.
(38:31):
A mom's nurturing abilitycompared to a dad's now Am I
here to say that a man cannot beas good of a nurturer as a
woman?
I'm not gonna say that but I cansay it's easier for me to see a
woman in that role based off ofmy own worldview and I see that
within myself and i've seen thatwith the people That you know
raised me and how I grew up Grewup and the friends around me and
(38:53):
the environment, and even intoday's world, I can kind of see
that, you know, you see kids geta booboo, they very rarely run
to dad and say, dad, I needhelp.
It's always, mom, I need, I wantyou, I mean my, my kids growing
up, when they had theirtuck-ins, they asked for their
mother, their dad.
They were like, well, if youwant to come in, that's fine,
but we really just want mom to,you know, I mean, they wouldn't
(39:14):
say, we wouldn't take a tuck infrom you, dad, but they never
really asked Yeah.
And again, I know there's a lotof factors that go into that.
The question is, is a newexpectation that a man and a
woman are to be exactly the samein every scenario?
there are differences betweenpeople for a variety of
different reasons, gender, race,religion, all of them.
(39:35):
Is a new expectation is thatwe're all supposed to be exactly
the same?
Because I think that's anexpectation that a lot of people
are going fail at because Ican't be exactly the same way in
all situations that my wife canbe, or a female could be in.
Jim (39:50):
I think for me as a dad of two boys, that is really
aggravating for me.
And that was probably the secondreason why I really wanted to do
this episode because takingschool as an example, school is
designed around the way thatgirls are naturally set, you
know, like they're a lot more,I'm going to sit at my seat and
(40:12):
I'm going to learn and I'm notgoing to speak up and go out of
turn.
And you have this phrase, toxicmasculinity that came out that
Ben and I have talked aboutthis.
And absolutely there are thingsabout toxic masculinity that we
need to toss out that areabsolutely bad, but it's somehow
(40:33):
in our culture got wrapped upinto anything that is naturally
what guys are like.
Is intrinsically bad.
And so now we have designedschool around the way that girls
are and when a has just energy,not even necessarily doing
anything bad or hitting somebodyor whatever, then it's like, why
(40:56):
aren't you doing that?
Why can't you be more like thisgirl?
Well, because I'm not, this ishow I was born.
This is how my brain is wired.
They need different things.
In the military, they're like,should we change the
expectations of how muchphysical stuff that we could do
because women should be able todo this, too.
Okay, let's, let's do that.
(41:17):
Change things to make sure whatdo you actually need to do in
this situation and let's changeit to be fair instead of
arbitrarily saying you need todo 50 push ups, right?
So we can change it and stillmake it fair, but at some point
or another, we, we don't alwaysdo that with boys where it's
just like, no, this is alwaysthe way that we've done school.
You need to change how you'rewired because this is how things
(41:40):
are set.
And kids just aren't given afair shake.
And I've seen that happen withmy boys where it's just assumed
that they're the ones that didthe bad thing, or they get in
trouble for things.
When I see, I've been there atthe school and I see girls do
something and they're givengrace in those situations where
the boys, it's just like, well,we're going to get them in
(42:00):
trouble and send them to theprincipal's office.
And it's just so frustrating forme to try to raise boys when
they're told that Who you are isnot okay, and you need to
change.
Jamie (42:14):
Well, and I don't, I don't want to step into a whole
different conversation here, butto me, that is an example of why
it is so important to maybe moveaway from some of those
stereotypical gender things.
Imagine a school system whereour kids were evaluated as
individuals, not based on,gender.
(42:36):
what little boys typically doand what little girls typically
do, you know?
I mean, I can sit here and tellyou, I worked daycare for years
with, with small children.
I always had a couple of kidsthat didn't quite follow what
was typical of what I was seeingwith all the other kids.
And why do we have to separateit that way?
Why does school have to be basedon what is typically,
(42:57):
Appropriate and expected ofgirls.
Why can't it just be, we'regoing to do, what's best for the
kids that are in that class and,and same for people, you know,
just like, you know, you look atnon traditional families where
maybe those roles are reversedor different, or, the jobs that
they're taking on are different,they might have some societal
(43:18):
pressures, but those familieshave negotiated what works best
for their family.
As a society, why don't we domore of that?
Why don't we allow people tofill the roles that they fit
best in?
Ben (43:29):
Because that takes work.
Jamie (43:31):
Yeah, well, exactly.
It does take work.
And I think it takes morediversity too.
If you think about the schoolsystem, the largest percentage
of teachers are women.
So of course, what are theygoing to expect?
They're going to expect what'stypical for them and what
they're comfortable with andthings like that.
I'll tell you what, you get amale teacher in a school and
(43:51):
that's everybody's favoriteteacher.
So we're, we're cultivating thisin our kids.
When it's abnormal for dad totake us to the park and play, of
course, we're going to thinkthat's the coolest day ever.
Whereas if we could negotiatethat and make it more equal.
Yeah.
My parents are awesome.
Right?
Not just my mom's school or mydad's school.
(44:11):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Ben (44:12):
Well, here's a hot take.
You're asking about why is itthat way?
Why can't we just haveindividualized schools or
approaches to life?
I think it really has a lot todo with the nature of social
media and just the way that weengage in society today.
The voice that is making itselfheard the most is the voice is
(44:35):
what gets adopted because it'seasier to align yourself with
somebody who is convinced ofwhat's right and what's not and
what's the norm and what isn't.
It's easier to just fall in linewith that than it is to be the
person at the front of the linesaying, You know what?
I'm gonna do this differentlybecause this norm It may be
(44:59):
popular, but this isn't a normfor me, and I can't fit this
mold.
We have a culture of people whoare so uncomfortable with the
idea of being themselves thatit's easier to just wear the
mask or to wear the norm than itis to try to do different
(45:21):
because it takes work, hardwork.
This has been a season oftransformation for me.
Like people have baggage andthat baggage and that trauma
that we carry instead ofunpacking it and sorting through
it and letting it kind of informhow we live our lives.
(45:42):
We instead just set that asideand just go with, you know, the
influencers on TikTok and whatthey're doing and what they say
is the right thing to do.
I genuinely think that if peoplewere brave enough to sit with
their shit, I'm not sure ifwe're allowed to swear on these
shows, but, but if people werebrave enough to sit with the
(46:05):
shit, Look at Mahlon.
and unpack it, can you imaginewhat the world would be like if
people, instead of just buyinginto these norms and these
stereotypes, and this, thisgroupthink that is so prevalent
in society today, what if wejust said, you know what, that
(46:25):
doesn't work for me.
I'm gonna figure out what does,but to do that you really have
to be okay with facing a lot ofyour inner demons, facing a lot
of pain and trauma from the pastthat's caused you to just go
with what the group says versusfinding out what's right for
you.
(46:46):
Yeah.
Jamie (46:47):
Well, I'm going to give you a little behind the scenes
peek for a second because I'mabout to say something that
Mahlon absolutely loves when Isay,,
Mahlon (46:53):
if you say empathy, if you say the word empathy, I
swear, no,
Jamie (46:56):
no, no, no, not empathy, no empathy.
I think what's interesting aboutwhat you're saying is that we
are looking at this from such anAmericanized point of view.
And if you look at other, othercultures, other countries, you
know, there are countries wheremama makes the choices and mama
makes the rules.
And, you know, and these, thesethings don't look the same in
(47:17):
every society.
I think what we're talking aboutis uniquely American.
And How we choose to moveforward through that is going to
make a huge impact on what itlooks like moving forward.
I was watching a Netflix show,The Crown.
It's, I'm, I'm a crown junkie.
I love the royal family and allthat fun stuff.
I, I vaguely remember when I wasyounger, the first female prime
(47:41):
minister in England, and thatwas in, what was that?
Like the nineties, like earlynineties, I think.
And we still haven't had a womanpresident in this country,
right?
There's still, for some reason,there's some spaces that are not
accessible to me yet.
until we can figure out that I Iam just as capable of doing
those jobs as as my malecounterparts.
(48:03):
That's when we'll start to seereal shifting in our, in our
culture, in our society.
Yeah.
Mahlon (48:10):
Here's what I'll say.
He can't help himself.
He's got a pen in his
Ben (48:16):
hand.
It's like he's been takingnotes.
Pen in hand and everything.
Yeah, I'm like,
Mahlon (48:20):
just a second.
Um, no, again, it doesn't matterif you're a male or a female.
Can everybody do a job?
Yes.
My question and I think Jamie,this goes back to our wonderful
episode of gender inequality inthe workplace.
I believe that there is abiological element to gender and
(48:40):
I think there are some thingsthat are going to be different
in our personalities and in ourabilities.
We can't always say a man and awoman will always be exactly the
same because we're different.
That doesn't mean that we can'thave a male do a job that's
typically done by female and youcan't have a female do a job
that's typically done by a male.
That's not at all what I'msaying, but I think there has to
(49:01):
be some recognition to say thereis something different between a
man and a woman that in somecases it may lend itself to be
done better by a man than awoman, but also there's probably
situations that can be done by awoman.
That's better than a man.
Doesn't mean that you omit one,one gender from doing that than
the other.
(49:22):
But I think you have torecognize that there are
differences.
And that's one of the thingsthat I was trying to get at with
that question earlier is, is oneof the new expectations we're
forming is that men and womenare always exactly the same.
And I don't think that'srealistic.
I don't think we'll ever getthere because of a variety of
different elements that factorinto that.
(49:42):
And that's all I wanted to say,JB.
I think that a woman presidentis possible.
I think a man president, we'veall seen it as possible.
I just think that we, we, wewould be fooling ourselves as a
society.
In my humble opinion.
If we think a man and a womanwill always be exactly the same,
I think we're going to setourselves up for disappointment
(50:03):
and failure.
But
Ben (50:04):
I also think that that can be a cop out Mahlon and I'm not
just, taking a shot at you.
This is not a cheap shot.
I don't disagree with you thatmen and women are biologically
different.
That's obvious.
Men have broader shoulders thanwomen.
Women are typically able to havechildren unless nature decides
(50:26):
otherwise.
So naturally, yes, there arethings that women can do that
men will never be able to do.
And there are things that mencan do that women will struggle
to do.
Here's the thing though youdon't stop there.
That can't be the finish line tothe conversation and just be
like, well, that's just how itis.
No, that's like the startingline.
(50:48):
As a man, obviously I'm notgoing to be able to give birth,
but what are the things thatsociety is putting on women that
I can help with?
I'm a sensitive dude.
And in my case, I've come tolearn that I actually can be a
very nurturing dad.
And that my kids can come to meand find that in me.
(51:11):
It's something that typically ismore of a feminine trait or more
of a mother's role to be thatnurturer.
But I have that ability and Ihave that skill.
It's up to me as a man to say,you know what, this is outside
of the norm.
And this is might rock the boata little bit, but in order to be
(51:33):
true to me and true to myfamily, this is how I'm going to
show up in this moment.
I am going to be the nurturer ofthe family.
In my relationship with my wife,she's the mom, she's also the
one that kind of lays down thelaw and is the enforcer.
And that's typically somethingthat the dad does.
(51:57):
I think we could all agree thatthere are things that women do.
Either are the only ones thatcan do them or they're better
suited to do them, but thatdoesn't give us an out to look
for those nuances where perhapsin this specific makeup, in this
(52:17):
family, in this relationship,this is what I bring to the
table as a man, even though it'snot manly and gosh darn it, I'm
going to be true to that.
It pains us to press the pausebutton on this conversation.
It's just so good.
But we also recognize that youhave a whole host of things that
(52:40):
you need to get to.
So if you're sitting in thedriveway waiting for this
episode to end before you go in,well, you now have permission to
pause.
Go inside.
We'll see you next week as wecontinue this conversation with
the round table mindset podcast.
Jim (52:57):
And remember real men hug, but they also collaborate with
local podcasters.
Ben (53:03):
And remember real men hug, but they also round table
mindset.
Jim (53:09):
And remember real men hug, but they also don't fall into
societal expectations of whatyou should or shouldn't be in a
particular gender, in aparticular time, space, or
social setting.
Ben (53:20):
And remember real men hug, but real men don't need a kudos
for being a dad in public.
That's right.
Real man hug and hurdy durdydur.
Hurdy dur.
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History is beautiful, brutal and, often, ridiculous. Join Ben Bowlin and Noel Brown as they dive into some of the weirdest stories from across the span of human civilization in Ridiculous History, a podcast by iHeartRadio.