In this episode of Real Men Hug, hosts Jim and Ben sit down with Jamie and Mahlon from Roundtable Mindset to explore the impact of societal gender norms on various aspects of life. Together, they delve into the significance of mutual respect, open dialogue, and personal growth beyond traditional expectations.
Throughout the conversation, Jamie and Mahlon emphasize the importance of challenging outdated practices and fostering inclusivity in understanding gender roles. They share insights on how breaking free from stereotypes can lead to more fulfilling relationships, both personally and professionally.
As hosts, Jim and Ben echo the call for younger generations to question societal norms and embrace a more diverse and respectful perspective on gender. They highlight the need for open conversations and empowering shifts in attitudes towards gender norms for the betterment of society and individual growth.
Together, they navigate through the complexities of gender expectations, advocating for a world where everyone can express themselves authentically and be valued for their unique talents and contributions.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Jim (00:01):
Welcome to real men hug a podcast for men and the women
who love them.
I'm Jim
Ben (00:06):
and I'm Ben.
Jim (00:08):
We had so much fun chatting with Mahlon and Jamie in our
last episode.
We ended up talking for a reallylong time.
And we decided to break up thatepisode into two different
pieces.
If you are listening to this andyou haven't listened to part
one, hop back on that one first,that's going to be the first
(00:28):
half of the conversation.
This is part two, where we get achance to chat and finish up our
conversation with Mahlon andJamie.
Ben (00:36):
Mahlon and Jamie are phenomenal people with such an
incredible podcast.
So after you listen to this, goback and catch up on the round
table mindset.
So let's jump in.
Jim (00:48):
Let's jump in.
Ben (00:51):
I think we could all agree that there are things that women
do.
Either are the only ones thatcan do them or they're better
suited to do them, but thatdoesn't give us an out to look
for those nuances where perhapsin this specific makeup, in this
(01:11):
family, in this relationship,this is what I bring to the
table as a man, even though it'snot manly and gosh darn it, I'm
going to be true to that.
Jim (01:21):
I feel like we just have to get out of our own way, you
know, some of the examples thatwe've used like the school
Assuming that it's the wifethat's gonna be the one that
calls in when somebody tries tochallenge gender Expectations at
best they are met withresistance at worst They're met
with ridicule or I guess Ishould say or even worse.
(01:44):
So if a guy Starts sharing hisfeelings.
We use that as an example.
Hey, you know, I have this bigfeeling and someone will say,
Oh, you better give me your mancard or why don't you grow a
penis or something like that,where you're instantly ridiculed
just for having a feeling.
And when a woman tries to dosomething.
(02:06):
That typically has been a maledominated career as an example,
a woman, CEO of a fortune 500company will always get asked
like, well, how do you balanceyour time as a mother, dad, CEO
of fortune 500 never gets to askthat question.
So again, we are.
We are providing resistanceagainst people who are
(02:27):
challenging those expectations,and we just need to knock it off
and let people do what they'renaturally gifted and talented
at.
I'm a sensitive guy and myfamily benefits from it, so
maybe back off and don't justsay, Get your man card because
I'm rocking it as a dad and as ahusband.
So deal with it.
Mahlon (02:47):
So I love these examples.
I have one though, that I'vebeen kind of putting in the back
of my brain and Jim, with youtalking, it made me want to
bring it forward.
Here's a question that I've beenasking with with my wife,
because again, she's a greatsupporter of my podcast, even
though she won't come on as aguest, but she at least lets me
talk through these topics.
So in the case of if you're in arelationship and you're married,
(03:11):
significant other, whatever itis.
If both of you think on thedecision you both want to go
with your separate way And youcan't come to a compromise who
gets to make the final decisionDo you guys have a have a
conversation around how thatworks?
There's been and and I say thisI say this is just there's only
(03:32):
been a handful of times in mymarriage where Where my wife and
I could not come together.
We both had a decision that wewanted to make, but I'll just
throw this out to the group.
How do you, how do you decide onwhich person gets to make the
decision?
Ben (03:47):
We take it outside of us.
Bring in a third party.
For us, it looks like going toour pastor.
We had a moment recently where Iwas not on the same page with my
wife about a situation that oneof our kids is in, and it's been
a, a months long ordeal thatjust keeps getting worse and
(04:10):
worse.
I felt like my wife was beinghopeful, and I was not there.
Like I could not get there.
And the decision that was beingmade was one that we had to be
united in, but we couldn't getthere as a couple because of The
various things we were feeling.
(04:31):
And so for us, we took it to athird party and we sat down with
pastor Christy and she had melay out my case where I'm coming
from.
And then Andi had the chance todo the same and that's how we
settled it.
It's very rare that we've beenin that situation.
(04:51):
And for us bringing in a thirdparty, that's comfortable with
telling both of us that We'reseeing something wrong or
confronting us if we're just notright about something like you
need, you need that kind of aperson in your life.
So that's how it works for us.
My
Jamie (05:11):
guy is, I always say he lets me do what I'm going to do
until it really matters.
Right.
So for the two of us, I think heis, he is absolutely happy to
just let me do what I feel isbest, and I think part of that
comes from having kids before Imet him.
Right.
So bringing kids into thatsituation I think kind of lended
(05:31):
it easily to be like, you know,you're in the lead.
If you need something, let meknow.
When I hear him express a strongopinion, I know that it's
important to him and that that'stypically when I will negotiate
from there.
He doesn't sweat stuff, youknow, he doesn't sweat the small
things and he knows that thosesmall things really can make me
sweat.
He's content to just, Let me dowhat works best for me because
(05:54):
he can deal with it 90 percentof the time.
This is what's interesting to methough, is that I feel like
that's more a personality thingthan it is a gender thing.
You know what I mean?
I think he's just so much morelaid back and can roll with the
punches pretty easily.
Jim (06:07):
I agree with that.
I think my relationship is morepersonality based as well.
I think it might get to thepoint where maybe mediation is
necessary, but I don't thinkgender roles has ever been,
especially because of ourbackgrounds.
We have that sort of traditionalfaith background.
There might be, well, the man isthe head of the house and
therefore he gets to make thedecision.
(06:30):
That could be a whole tangent.
But when you talk about.
Submission and all that kind ofstuff.
That's not saying that the manis the de facto one who gets to
decide everything in a family.
That is not what that means.
So again, we can debate thattopic, but at least in our case,
it's not gender defined who getsto ultimately make the decision.
(06:52):
I think you have to consider theimpact that it has on the
relationship and you can'tfigure it out.
You probably should seek someoutside help.
Ben (07:00):
Yeah.
You mentioned being the head ofthe household.
I remember early in our marriagewhere my wife was kind of making
some, statements to that effect.
And I just looked at her and Isaid, I am not comfortable with
that language and thatresponsibility.
I married you because you are abold, fierce, independent,
(07:22):
strong woman.
I am not here to squash that.
I don't think that a properinterpretation of that is that
the dude's always right becausehe's got a penis.
It's insane that the churchwould just latch on to that view
and Whether it's right, wrong,or otherwise, and I'm digging
(07:43):
myself in holes and Jim'slaughing at me,
Jim (07:46):
but The penis comment just got me.
Jamie (07:48):
No, I agree.
I go, you go, I agree.
Ben (07:53):
But, but why is it that way?
Why does that get to beculturally relevant today?
If that's the case, then let'sbe honest and consistent with
the totality of Scripture.
How is it that you can take onepassage because it matches up
with your value system and yourview of the world and run with
it?
(08:13):
But then, any passage ofscripture that's not clear, or
puts you in the position ofbeing wrong about something why
don't we latch on to those?
Mahlon (08:24):
So Ben, I think you just outlined another topic that I
would love to have a furtherdebate and conversation with you
in, because there is so muchthere that I was like, but wait,
oh, uh, wait, uh, uh, but no, I,I, I understand the spirit.
I love it.
And I love it.
And I'm, I'm following you.
I'm jumping right with you.
I do think for me when, becauseJamie knows this, and if you've
(08:47):
listened to any of our podcastsepisodes, you probably already
know this too.
Faith is really big to me.
My religion is, is reallyimportant to who I am.
And even with that being said,I've never once.
I've never seen it with myparents.
I've, I've never done it with mywife.
At least I hope I, I haven't, itis not my role because I'm a man
(09:08):
because I have the penis that Iget to have dominion over my
wife.
This is a partnership.
This is someone that I'vemarried that I, I care for and I
love because I need someone tohelp me steer the boat of life,
not just to be a passenger forme to tell what they get to do.
And I know there's some peoplethat take that and really run
(09:29):
with it and say, you know, manis ahead of the household, his
will, it's his way or no way,but that's not a relationship
I'm looking for.
And I know my wife and I, we'vehad conversations before in the
past where we've said part ofher boldness.
Is why I married her part of thereason why she's opinionated and
she gives her opinion and shespeaks up is part of the reason
(09:50):
why I love her.
I wanted to have her as apartner in my life is because I
know, and Jamie, you and I'vesaid this in the past, iron
sharpens iron, and I don't needsomebody to sit in the copilot
of this.
Of this ship, not helping mesharpen myself, not helping me
be better, not calling me out tothe carpet, you know, when I
(10:10):
say, and I have said some reallyodd and horrible things
throughout my life, I need herthere to be like, that's not
okay.
And she needs that for me.
And so it's not that one of us,because we're a certain gender
has that dominion over theother, it's truly a partnership.
I do have another question forthis group is, I don't know,
(10:34):
Jamie, this might be directedto, to you being the, you're all
woman.
This is something I don'tunderstand and it might've been
the way I was raised by mymother, but why is it when a
woman.
Gives her opinion or says thisis what we need to do or is
aggressive in any way for a manThat's a high five.
That's hey, that's what he'ssupposed to do for a woman.
(10:56):
It becomes the b word and That'ssomething I have never
understood.
I have never understood why if awoman is aggressive if a woman
is forward.
If a woman is making decisions,that label seems to fall on her.
But there's, there's nothingnegative when a man does it.
And I have, even as a littlekid, I have never understood why
(11:16):
that is there.
Jamie (11:17):
I think it's any time someone stands up.
against the flow of what'snaturally happening.
If you look at our society, itis a male dominated society.
Anytime a woman challenges that,that's when we get called out
for being too aggressive youknow what I mean?
And I think what's interestingabout that is that it's not just
(11:37):
It's not just women.
You know, if you think aboutother areas of social injustice
where, someone of color were tostand up to the injustices they
see in the system, they wouldalso be considered the typical
angry black man or whatever.
I think that's really sad.
And I don't know why that is.
Why is that still happening?
We are so evolved in so manyways and yet here we are.
(12:01):
So of course, when I stand upand say, that's not okay.
And I deserve different, or Ideserve better, or did you think
of this?
Then of course, that's going tobe taken as a challenge because
I'm challenging what is.
Mahlon (12:14):
Yeah, I don't understand that because again, I grew up
with a mom that was very forwardAgain, my mom and dad shared a
lot of responsibilities But mymom she ruled with an iron fist
and she ruled her business thatway She was a very shrewd
businesswoman but she didn'ttake crap from people and she
people knew where she they stoodwith her and And a lot of people
(12:37):
did not like her because of it.
And I know a lot of people tryto sidestep my mother to
interact with my dad.
And there's been a couple oftimes growing up.
I remember specifically, I needto speak to the man of the house
and my mom would absolutely shutthat down.
And we, she used to have peoplecall and say, is your husband
home?
no, but I'm the wife orwhatever.
(12:58):
And they would say, no, I wantto speak to your husband.
It would drive her nuts.
People would call if they had acredit card bill and the credit
card would call, they would askto speak to my dad.
Both of my parents names were onit.
And my mom would say, well, I'm,They would give her she would
give her name and they would saywell No, we'll call back when
he's available And I haven'tseen that so much being married
(13:18):
in the younger generation and Icall myself the younger
generation in this example Butthat doesn't really seem to
happen as often it has happeneda couple times in our marriage
and Both my wife and I shut thatdown real quick, but I remember
as a kid, it almost happened allthe time.
It was almost like this aversionto be able to talk with the
woman or the wife in order tohave those conversations.
(13:39):
And I, I just, I scratched myhead.
I never really understood whythat was there.
Jamie (13:43):
that was the eighties and the nineties.
And that is absolutely athrowback to the fifties when
women couldn't have a checkingaccount.
Everything had to be through thehusband.
It's interesting how long thathas hung on and yeah, we don't
get phone calls like thatanymore.
I can make independent choicesregardless of whether I'm
married, single or otherwise.
As a woman, I do have many morechoices than maybe even my mom
(14:07):
would have had.
But still there's so much ofthat that hangs on.
It's just in different ways now.
And that's really, reallyunfortunate.
And that's the societalconstruct.
Mahlon (14:17):
Well, one last question that I have, and I'm curious, on
what this group thinks.
And I'm going to, fall intothis.
I'm going to be the first one tosay this, this gender identity.
I, I fall into this and I'mspraying this all over
everybody.
So again, I'm using my worldviewand I'm saying, this is how
typically everybody is, and Iknow that that is wrong.
So I'm, I'm coming to this groupsaying, I know that this is a
(14:40):
stereotype that I hold dear.
And I wonder how different it isfor, for other people.
So.
In order for me to identifylove, it's a respect thing.
And so I'll go back to mymarriage here for a second.
If there's times in my marriagewhere I don't feel like I'm
being respected, that is a signof me not being loved.
(15:03):
My wife, however, does not lookat it that way.
She does not look at it from arespect level at all.
She looks at it from, there arethings that I can do.
And again, everybody'sdifferent.
I get that, but there's actions.
There's things, there's things Ican say that I can do that can
show my love and appreciationfor her.
Does that seem to fall into ageneral.
gender norm, or am I an outlieror Jamie, do you look at respect
(15:29):
as a sign of love more than youdo?
Maybe an action.
I'm just curious how differentmy worldview is from the three
of yours.
Jamie (15:37):
I'll let you guys go first.
Cause I'm curious about this onetoo.
Ben (15:40):
First, can we get a working definition of what does respect
mean?
Cause I want to honor your, Viewof this and so knowing that
would be helpful.
Mahlon (15:52):
Let's say we'll go to the kids.
That's kind of an easier one Iwill say something and then
they'll go and my wife will hearthe answer that I've given and
The kids may go and ask her andshe'll give them a different
answer to me that is a sign ofdisrespect for me because I'm
like I've given an answer and Inour household, you ask one of
(16:13):
us, the other one upholds it,right?
And so there's been occasions,and I've done this too, I don't
want this to say this is oneway, I have done the same thing
to my wife too, but that wouldbe a good example where I have
given an answer.
And they'll go and ask my wifeand she'll go against what I
said to me.
That's a sign of disrespect.
And that's, that directlyimpacts my love meter.
(16:34):
And that is something that I'mlike, why would you do that?
If you loved me, you wouldn'thave done that to me.
And that really starts.
That, that wounds me more thananything is if I see a sign of
disrespect that is more hurtfulfor me than if somebody would
come up to me and say, you know,I really hate you right now or
don't like you that I look atthat through the lens of respect
(16:58):
so much more than anything else.
Does that help you, Ben?
Ben (17:01):
It does, yeah.
Thank you for that.
I can remember being in certainsituations like that where I
felt like the disrespect that Iwas getting from my wife somehow
meant that in that moment shewas not loving towards me.
I think it's a balance thingbecause there are times where
(17:22):
Especially in a crisissituation, or if you are dealing
with trauma, whether it's yourown or your spouses or your
kids, if it's like a seriousissue and the other spouse is
just being flippant about it,then yeah, I would definitely
question my wife's love for mein that moment.
(17:44):
However, if it's just asituation where life's busy and
maybe my wife and I didn'tcommunicate effectively and I
told the kid no, and then shewent and told them, yes, I
could, in that moment, choose toview that instance as a mountain
and get upset about it.
Or I could just look at it forwhat it is.
(18:06):
And the grand scheme of things,this is a mole hill.
I really don't need to questionmy wife's love for me because
she did something different ortold the kids differently.
For me, it really comes down toweighing them.
Like how important is this inthe grand scheme of things?
And then.
Break it down from there.
(18:27):
because what I found is I'vebeen in therapy for five years
with the same therapist and it'slike hardcore psychotherapy and
just really analyzing everydormant corner of my life and
just looking at it and asking,why is that there?
And I think a lot of times inthose moments where I feel
(18:49):
disrespected by my wife, it'sless to do with her and more to
do with me.
And so just being comfortableand recognizing that nine times
out of ten, she's really nottrying to disrespect me.
me.
It's just a miscommunication orsomething along those lines.
(19:12):
It's nuanced.
It's, it's not a clear cut thingfor me, but I would agree with
you in those.
super important moments.
Absolutely.
I need to be able to count on mywife's respect for either me or
my kids or whoever we're dealingwith.
And if that's not there, that'sa huge red flag.
Jim (19:33):
There's a book actually, Love and Respect, where it talks
about how women are reallylonging and searching for love,
and men really want thatrespect.
It's a shortcut.
Is it right?
Often?
Probably it can be.
But I just think you reallycan't make it a gender thing
because people are different.
And again, we live in a changingsociety where part of that
(19:57):
respect might have been becauseAll these parts of society are
trying to tell me as a man thatI need to be the breadwinner,
that I need to provide for myfamily.
And if I don't, I have failedthem.
And if I'm not being respected,then I'm not a good provider.
I haven't brought in the baconfor my family.
And so therefore I'm a failure.
(20:17):
When I go into my story, I havefailed so much along the way,
and I have never made more moneythan my wife.
She has always made more moneythan I am.
And that bothered me for awhile, honestly.
And I think it was because ofthose cultural tones that were
speaking into my ear that I'msupposed to be the one that's
(20:38):
providing to my family.
And I think it bothered me for along time.
But over time, I mean, we'vebeen married for 17 years now,
and I'm just over it.
Like, I know that she trusts me.
I know that she respects me.
And I always assume that she'snot intentionally trying to hurt
me.
So what am I misunderstanding?
(20:59):
Or what am I not hearing?
Or where have we gone the wrongway?
And so then I just get to theroot.
Of how I actually feel lovedrather than what society is
trying to tell me, which I willreference another book that I
really like is the five lovelanguages by Gary Chapman.
I am a physical touch kind ofguy, and a lot of people
(21:22):
conflate that with sexuality,but in my case, I just want to
hug.
I know that's ironic becausewe're real men, real men hug.
It's so funny, but my wife and Igot into a lot of arguments that
I'm just like, when I get homefrom work, I just want a hug.
That's how I feel loved.
My spouse comes to me,regardless of how busy she is,
(21:45):
and she's in the middle of doingthis or that.
And I know it's tough whenyou've got seven pans on the
oven trying to get dinner ready.
But when you come to me and Ican just Embrace you and let go
of those toxins from the day andfeel that warm embrace and just
soak in the knowledge that I'mhugging my dearest wife who
(22:07):
loves me just Talking about itmakes me feel that love for my
wife.
That is how I feel loved, isthat physical touch of the woman
that I love.
That's where it's coming from.
It's not about respect.
Words of affirmation areimportant too, but man, number
one on that list is thatphysical touch, that energy
(22:30):
that's going between her and I.
That's absolutely how I feelloved, and I don't think that
has anything to do with gender.
Jamie (22:36):
I absolutely agree with that.
Ben (22:41):
Pressing pause on the conversation for a quick second,
wanted to tell you aboutsomething that actually made
this conversation todaypossible.
Jim (22:50):
With the help of our listeners, we have been able to
get some new equipment to makethis show run more smoothly.
The fact that we were able tocollaborate with another
podcast, like we're talking withround table mindset today is
because of a generous donationfrom one of our listeners.
We have continual needs and wewant to continue to grow some of
(23:11):
those different equipmentpieces.
And even sometimes things justrequire extra memory, extra
equipment, extra subscriptions.
If you haven't yet hopped ontobuymeacoffee.
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There are perks on there thatyou get depending on which tier
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Ben (23:30):
So check it out at buymeacoffee.
com slash real men hug.
And know that it certainly makesa huge difference for Jim and I
both..
Jim (23:40):
thanks for listening back to it with round table mindset.
Jamie (23:46):
I sometimes feel like I'm trying to bridge, this big gap
between what I saw when I wasyounger What I experienced
growing up, how I am today andwhat I want my, my daughter to
see and grow up, what kind ofworld I want her to grow up in
as a woman, you know?
(24:06):
It's funny because I have a lotof those same ideas, I assume.
When I see a snake, they wouldprefer to move away from me than
let me pet him.
Right?
So when I see a man, I assumethat he would receive love the
best by respect.
Right?
I mean, that is my experienceswith people, my own age.
And then.
(24:27):
I also don't think that that'show it's supposed to be forever.
And I do know for myself thatthat lack of respect thing can
be a real trigger for me.
There's a parenting curriculumthat I, that I facilitate.
And one of the concepts in thereis shark music.
And when this thing happens,it's triggering stuff in the
background for you and it'sshark music, right?
(24:49):
And that lack of respect is areal big part of it.
button for me to kind of triggerthat that emotion.
And I'm not sure why that is.
I've, I've long since I stoppedtrying to figure that out.
Other than I think that was thefirst example was with my
parents and how that was superimportant to both of them.
(25:09):
This idea of mutual respect andwhen that wasn't there on the
occasions that spousalrelationships have fights and
things happen in our said, I sawthat be real triggers for both
of my parents.
I think what makes me sad isthat I don't know that.
I feel like more women shoulddemand and expect a certain
(25:31):
level of respect not because I'ma man and that's how you show me
love.
I deserve that kind of respectto just as much as you're
telling me that this is how youreceive love.
Okay.
This is how I receive love too.
And let's talk about the otherlove languages.
You know what I'm saying?
Mahlon (25:47):
It's been a while for me to really think through and say
this is how I see love.
This is how I interpret love isthrough respect and disrespect.
A long time ago, it neveroccurred to me that that would
be a way that a woman would wantto be also loved.
I thought that was truly just aman's Way of showing love and
(26:08):
over the years and over theconversations and being married,
there is a level of respect thatI show my wife that shows her
how much I love her.
She just happens to have othermeans that she looks for than
that.
That is my main driver.
But there was a younger versionof myself not too long ago that
I thought that's because I was aman, a woman wouldn't ever look
(26:31):
at love the same way.
And so it's good to hear youhere to say that Jamie, because.
I have a daughter that I'mraising, and I have a daughter
that I am setting standards andexpectations for, and I have to
be mindful, and one of thethings that we're, that I'm
teaching her is, you have torespect yourself enough to know
when to walk away, you have toknow when it's not, it's, it's
(26:52):
no longer beneficial for anyone,including yourself to chase
something that's not good foryou, and if they disrespect you
in any level, it's That's yourcue to walk away.
And so it's funny as a dad, asI'm raising this young, this
young woman, and she's about tocross into adulthood, all those
lessons that I'm instilling her,and I'm thinking, wow, I'm
(27:13):
really blazing a trail herebecause I'm injecting in her all
these wonderful male conceptswhen actuality, she's setting
the, some of those up herself.
She's.
She's had conversations withpast boyfriends that i'm just
now hearing about Where she hasabsolutely put her foot down and
said that is not acceptable andI do not I do not accept that
Those are all because of herboundaries.
(27:34):
I was taking credit for some ofthose I think saying i'm
instilling this into my daughterand to some degree I am But what
she does with them is all herand so I love hearing you say
that because that is something Ihope my daughter takes and goes
forward with.
I hope she does demand respect.
I hope she does expect that tobe a two way street and if it's
(27:56):
lacking in her relationshipsthat she knows it's okay to walk
away and pull the ripcord.
I have a question.
I want to end on a statementabout generations, but I just
wanted to ask a question around,is there an expectation that is
set gender related that is seton you that just absolutely
drives you nuts.
I have one for me and it's not,it's not present in every
(28:19):
situation, but I haveexperienced this and I can see
it ebb and flow.
There's this element of, ifyou're a man, you are strong.
And what's confusing me is Ithink there's also, you can be
too strong and if you become toostrong, then that's a problem.
And so to me, this genderspecific expectation is.
It's, it's almost like, it's alose lose.
(28:42):
I can't be so strong, but then Ican't be too weak.
And I get it on both sides.
I get it from the male point ofview, and I also get it from the
female point of view.
I don't think we should look atit as how strong you are and you
are too strong.
But that is one that I havepersonally dealt with i've
experienced it And it it is hardbecause it keeps shifting
because it's one of those movingtargets that I I can't seem to
(29:04):
get right And in the in thesheer coincidence that I do get
it, right it shifts again, andthen i'm wrong So it's like i'm
always wrong no matter what I doin that case Anybody else have
one that you're thinking of?
Ben (29:17):
Definitely.
For me, it goes back to theworkplace.
I work in corporate America, fora, it's a small business on the
larger side.
So about 200 employees.
Females.
are the administrativeassistants or the secretaries.
Whenever somebody would come tothe office, it's a woman sitting
(29:41):
at the front desk.
There's still this expectationthat I sense every now and then
that the women who work incorporate America aren't the
decision makers and that there'sa man above her.
Administrative professional dayswas like last month, I think.
And I think one of the thingsthat happens so often in the
(30:03):
workplace is women just becomecomfortable with this idea that
their main role is to supportthe work of the higher ups who
are typically men.
And so they get comfortable injust being in an administrative
role their entire career.
But I look at that and itbothers me because I see so much
(30:24):
potential in these women.
There are two employees that Icould realistically go to and
say, Hey, I've got this biglunch coming up.
Can you go pick up the food forit?
And they would just be like, ofcourse I'd be happy to, and
they'd run with it.
That bothers me because I don'twant them to fall into thinking
(30:44):
that that's all that they canoffer.
And so any chance that I canget, I try really hard to point
out the things that they'redoing.
Well, and if I hand a task tothem to do and they do it, well,
I let the rest of the companyknow, and I celebrate it.
And what ends up happening isthat woman realizes that she's
(31:07):
so much more than an assistantand she can contribute.
To the company success.
And one of those individualsthat I mentioned, she is now
moving into a different rolewhere she has more say so, and,
and more ability to, determinethe course of the company versus
just, being the errand runner orthe administrative brain, like
(31:33):
she could be so much more thanthat.
And I celebrate that, but that'sthe biggest thing for me is
women in the workplace who arejust Assume that that's the end
all be all of their career.
Jamie (31:44):
I like that.
For me, the gender constructsthat is probably the most
harmful for me is this ideathat, I have to hold it all
together and I can't strugglewith it.
When I, was actively parentingyoung kids.
It's single and juggling acareer and shifting into
(32:08):
leadership in that career.
there was no space for me not tohave it all together.
And if I don't have it alltogether, there is some serious
judgment that comes with that.
Like I'm failing as a woman, youknow what I mean?
I think that's probably thehardest thing is that I, I don't
get to be human because I haveto, outperform.
I have to outperform a manbecause I still have to earn my
(32:32):
seat at the table is sometimeshow I feel.
I remember my dad telling mewhen I was young whenever you
have the opportunity to go tothe doctor and there's a woman
doctor, always go to them causethey had to work harder to get
through medical school, youknow?
And I think that there is apiece of me that still lives in
that space where I still feellike I have to be better than
it's even possible for me to be,because I have to earn my space.
(32:55):
I have to earn my place at thetable.
That's the most harmful genderstereotype or expectation that I
encounter.
Jim (33:04):
I think mine is probably similar to Mahlon's, just that
expectation that men always haveto have it together, we have to
be the strong ones, and there'sthis cultural push towards,
really almost that we justshouldn't have feelings, or if
we do, you just push them down,you don't acknowledge that
(33:25):
they're there, but then on theother end of it, people want you
to be sensitive and, and in tuneand, and supportive and there's
kind of this push towardsandrogyny which is almost be
less of a man, but also be aman.
I don't know if you guys haveseen that Barbie movie that came
out.
There's that scene where,America Ferreira.
(33:45):
Is that the one you guys don'tknow or care, but,, the actress
who had the speech where she wastalking about gender roles and
how women are expected to bethis, but also that and do this,
but don't do it too much and bethat, but don't be too
aggressive and all of that.
I wish that there was a maleequivalent to that in media that
(34:05):
I could point to because that'show I feel in our society where.
We're expected to be this butalso this and that but not too
much and this and that and be bestrong But in touch with your
feelings, but be a man about itand rub dirt on it But also and
it's just what do you want me tobe because when I am myself I
(34:27):
feel like I'm I'm ridiculed forit and I don't fit anywhere and
I am a sensitive guy And I thinkthat's a good thing But a lot of
people say that that's not okayAnd so I just don't Feel like I
can be comfortable in my ownskin walking around.
Jamie (34:44):
You know, Jim, you just magnified for me the point that
What I'm hearing from you soundsand feels very similar to the
way I feel.
And and I think what'sinteresting is that I think
there are so many pressures oneither side of both men and
women That it it just to me justputs an exclamation point on Why
(35:08):
can't we be more about peopleand less about?
Well, you're a man, so you haveto do this, or you're a woman,
so you have to do that, or youshouldn't do that because you're
a woman or whatever.
Oh, if there's one thing that Iwish we really could move toward
is this idea that we don't haveto determine someone based on a
gender role or a genderexpectation.
(35:29):
Why can't we just be people?
And if we could just be people,how much easier would it be to
navigate moving forward?
My gender has nothing to do withmy ability.
It has nothing to do with mybrains.
It has nothing to do with mycompassion or ability to do math
or science or anything else.
And how are we still talkingabout this after 1970?
(35:49):
You know what I mean?
Like, why are we still here?
That will probably forever be mybattle cry
Mahlon (35:56):
I want to end my rant or my, my conversation with a
lesson.
I learned just recently from myson.
I've learned that the bestlessons in life come from the,
the teachable moments my kidsgive to me.
So I have an example of ateachable moment and it touches
on generation.
And I think this is a positivelens to everything we've been
(36:20):
talking about and how theyounger generation is going to
move the needle just as much asI can say, we've moved the
needle and our generation fromthe previous one, they're moving
the needle even more.
I was with my youngest son.
And we were at, a conveniencestore.
We were getting him a grilledcheese sandwich and we were
(36:40):
getting some pop.
And we were in line and heordered and on the thing it said
it was 2.
39.
Yet when he got his ticket, herealized and he looked at it and
it was more money than that.
And he said, well, why does itcost more?
And I said, well, there wastaxes and we're in line, get
ready to pay.
And he goes, well, that'sstupid.
He goes, your price of it thatyou purchase it should have the
(37:02):
tax included.
And why does it have to bethere?
And this guy standing in lineleans over and he goes you have
a very smart kid there and Isaid, oh well Thank you.
I said, I really appreciate thatand I said say thank you and he
said thank you And then thisgentleman went one step further
and he was probably the samegeneration as me So am I saying
this is an older man?
(37:22):
I'm saying it's right around theage that I am and he leans down
to my son and he goes now You goand you change it and he walked
away and I stood there for asecond You And all of a sudden,
all these moments from when Iwas a kid started flooding in.
When I was a young kid, I wastold to leave things alone.
(37:43):
Stop messing with things.
Don't change it.
If it's not broke, don't fix it.
I mean, that's I've heard that amillion times.
And here this man that my sonnever knew.
Got down on his level and lookedat him and say, and in so many
words, I expect you to changethis, be empowered enough that
you can make a difference.
It doesn't have to stay this wayfor you.
(38:05):
And I know we're not talkingabout a subject that is specific
to gender or expectations, but Ithink it can be applied here.
And I think this is what we'reseeing.
Because I think the door is alot more open for the younger
generation and the expectationsthat are being set to them is
saying, you can change this.
You don't have to live in thisworld anymore.
Whereas when I was a kid, it wasestablished and I had to work
(38:27):
through it.
I asked my daughter some ofthese same questions that we're
talking about today.
And she had a really greatresponse.
She said in my generation, dad,why does gender have to be even
a mention when we're talkingabout some of these things?
What does it matter if you're amale or a female with some of
these discussion points that wewere talking about?
(38:48):
And we went around a lot of thesame things we're talking about
here.
We talked about workplace.
We talked about jobs.
We talked about placement.
We talked about getting ahead.
We talked about what's positiveand negative.
And we went through it all.
And she ultimately just lookedat me and said, why does it
matter?
What does it matter if you're amale or a female?
And I think that kind of.
(39:08):
Mindset is what's going tochange this in the future.
And I think having the mindsetto say, it doesn't matter and we
shouldn't be looking at it andwe're not going to look at it.
And then having the ability tobe encouraged to make the
change.
I think those two piecestogether give a good.
Outlook of the future generationspecifically around this topic.
Jamie (39:28):
Well, and to add one more thing to that, I think the other
piece of that then is not tostand in the way of that,
because I think we could easily,as policy changes, as social
media changes, as all of thosethings change, we could easily
dig our heels in and this iswhat we know.
And this is what we expect.
I think we've seen that.
(39:48):
Even as we are pushing to makechanges.
Right?
My message to my daughter is, Iwill go with you.
I will support you in makingthose changes.
You lead the way because you arewell equipped to do so.
And you see things differently.
And I'm right here with you.
And, and I'm not going to sitcomplacently and let it stay the
way it is.
(40:09):
I'm going to support thosechanges.
Jim (40:10):
Well, and I'll say for our part, that's why real men hug
was so excited to do acollaboration with round table
mindset, because I think we'reboth here trying to be the
change that we want to see inthe world.
So if you want to make thesechanges, that's what Ben and I
do on our podcast.
We're trying to be vulnerableand.
Let men know that it's okay toshare your feelings and that
(40:34):
there are other people that feelthat way too.
And I've seen that reflected inyour show as well.
So how neat that we're able tocome together and be like, yeah,
we get to be the change.
We get to be the generation andthe people that tried to turn
some things around.
So that's super exciting to me.
Jamie (40:51):
Yes.
Yes.
It's, it's been fun.
And you guys are really, you'redoing an awesome thing.
And that's where Mahlon and Icome from, with Roundtable
Mindset too, is, to be able tobring the different perspectives
in and look at things in adifferent way.
That's how we make changes.
When we can shift our ownmindset to say, Hmm, maybe the
way I see it, isn't reality foreveryone.
(41:12):
that's how we move forward aspeople.
This has been awesome because itblends so nicely.
So thanks for having thanks forhaving us and joining us on our
on our show, too Yeah,
Mahlon (41:22):
I love the fact that we're not afraid to Have the
real conversations we need toand we ask the questions that
people try to avoid I see it inyour show and I see it in our
show And I think that's when youhave real change is when you can
address it Ignoring it doesn'tever help.
I see that in your podcast youhave those real moments where
you have the real conversationand you're not afraid to say
(41:42):
what needs to be said and andyou do it in a very nice way And
I think that's that's the artthat Jamie and I are trying to
Talk about on our show too isyou can't just come in with a
sledgehammer You have to come insometimes with the finesse, but
doesn't mean you don't ask thequestions It doesn't mean you
don't go to the topic.
It just means that your approachmay have to shift and.
That was a big lesson that we'vehad to learn and I'm going to
(42:03):
say I've had to learn.
So this has been really great.
I, again, I, I love your podcastand I love the opportunity to
actually sit down around theround table and have a
conversation with room and hug.
It's been a, it's been a delightfor me.
It really has.
Yeah.
Ben (42:15):
Thank you.
Yeah.
And just to wrap.
Hearing you guys talk about howthings can be different, the
stories of your kids, Mahlon,just hit the heart in a really
good way.
I think to stop conforming tothe way things always are, it
starts with our thoughts, and wehave control over those
(42:36):
thoughts, and it's the renewingof our minds that is going to
bring about change.
Thoughts create your feelings,feelings create your actions,
and actions create your results.
I think that sums up ourconversation here today very
well, and that's my hope forleaving this round table, that
(42:57):
our mindsets would be renewed,because change really does start
with our thoughts.
I know I've been challenged insome ways in my own thoughts
today, so thank you guys.
Mahlon (43:06):
Yeah.
Thank you guys.
All right.
We should probably go.
Although I could talk literallyfor another two hours, but I
can't see everybody's eyes.
I'm tell I gift of gab, gift ofgab right here.
Ask JB.
She sometimes just has to cutoff and leave because she's
like,
Ben (43:20):
I gotta go.
Mahlon (43:22):
Yeah, exactly.
Jamie (43:23):
Let's do it again.
Yeah.
Mahlon (43:25):
Yes.
Let's make sure we do it again..
Bye everyone.
Ben (43:29):
Well, I hope you enjoyed listening to that conversation
as much as Jim and I enjoyedhaving it.
Jamie and Mahlon are twoincredible people who had the
most kind things to say aboutReal Men Hug, about Jim and I
and our interactions.
Jim (43:46):
I had a blast talking with them and I'm so excited that
they were the first group thatwe got a chance to collaborate
with.
We just have a synergy and Jamieand Mahlon are just genuine,
great people.
We had a really niceconversation before we even hop
on the podcast and it's justneat because they have a very
similar mission to ours.
(44:06):
That they just want to light upsome of those dark corners and
they want to have these realconversations to encourage
people to be their authenticselves.
Selves and find your people likewe say so much on this show.
Ben (44:18):
If you enjoyed the podcast, please take a moment to rate,
review, and subscribe.
We are on Spotify and ApplePodcasts.
Your feedback means a lot andhelps others discover the show.
Jim (44:33):
Now we have to get up and actually
Ben (44:35):
get up and press a button
Jim (44:36):
oh my gosh Jamie, you know, I was resisting singing.
I'm every woman over here.
I did.
I did.
I saw it and I was like, it'sawesome.
It's awesome.
Ben (44:57):
A hundred percent.
Jamie (44:59):
Oh, recording has ended.
Welcome to real men hug a podcast for men and the women
who love them.
I'm Jim
Ben (00:06):
and I'm Ben.
Jim (00:08):
We had so much fun chatting with Mahlon and Jamie in our
last episode.
We ended up talking for a reallylong time.
And we decided to break up thatepisode into two different
pieces.
If you are listening to this andyou haven't listened to part
one, hop back on that one first,that's going to be the first
(00:28):
half of the conversation.
This is part two, where we get achance to chat and finish up our
conversation with Mahlon andJamie.
Ben (00:36):
Mahlon and Jamie are phenomenal people with such an
incredible podcast.
So after you listen to this, goback and catch up on the round
table mindset.
So let's jump in.
Jim (00:48):
Let's jump in.
Ben (00:51):
I think we could all agree that there are things that women
do.
Either are the only ones thatcan do them or they're better
suited to do them, but thatdoesn't give us an out to look
for those nuances where perhapsin this specific makeup, in this
(01:11):
family, in this relationship,this is what I bring to the
table as a man, even though it'snot manly and gosh darn it, I'm
going to be true to that.
Jim (01:21):
I feel like we just have to get out of our own way, you
know, some of the examples thatwe've used like the school
Assuming that it's the wifethat's gonna be the one that
calls in when somebody tries tochallenge gender Expectations at
best they are met withresistance at worst They're met
with ridicule or I guess Ishould say or even worse.
(01:44):
So if a guy Starts sharing hisfeelings.
We use that as an example.
Hey, you know, I have this bigfeeling and someone will say,
Oh, you better give me your mancard or why don't you grow a
penis or something like that,where you're instantly ridiculed
just for having a feeling.
And when a woman tries to dosomething.
(02:06):
That typically has been a maledominated career as an example,
a woman, CEO of a fortune 500company will always get asked
like, well, how do you balanceyour time as a mother, dad, CEO
of fortune 500 never gets to askthat question.
So again, we are.
We are providing resistanceagainst people who are
(02:27):
challenging those expectations,and we just need to knock it off
and let people do what they'renaturally gifted and talented
at.
I'm a sensitive guy and myfamily benefits from it, so
maybe back off and don't justsay, Get your man card because
I'm rocking it as a dad and as ahusband.
So deal with it.
Mahlon (02:47):
So I love these examples.
I have one though, that I'vebeen kind of putting in the back
of my brain and Jim, with youtalking, it made me want to
bring it forward.
Here's a question that I've beenasking with with my wife,
because again, she's a greatsupporter of my podcast, even
though she won't come on as aguest, but she at least lets me
talk through these topics.
So in the case of if you're in arelationship and you're married,
(03:11):
significant other, whatever itis.
If both of you think on thedecision you both want to go
with your separate way And youcan't come to a compromise who
gets to make the final decisionDo you guys have a have a
conversation around how thatworks?
There's been and and I say thisI say this is just there's only
(03:32):
been a handful of times in mymarriage where Where my wife and
I could not come together.
We both had a decision that wewanted to make, but I'll just
throw this out to the group.
How do you, how do you decide onwhich person gets to make the
decision?
Ben (03:47):
We take it outside of us.
Bring in a third party.
For us, it looks like going toour pastor.
We had a moment recently where Iwas not on the same page with my
wife about a situation that oneof our kids is in, and it's been
a, a months long ordeal thatjust keeps getting worse and
(04:10):
worse.
I felt like my wife was beinghopeful, and I was not there.
Like I could not get there.
And the decision that was beingmade was one that we had to be
united in, but we couldn't getthere as a couple because of The
various things we were feeling.
(04:31):
And so for us, we took it to athird party and we sat down with
pastor Christy and she had melay out my case where I'm coming
from.
And then Andi had the chance todo the same and that's how we
settled it.
It's very rare that we've beenin that situation.
(04:51):
And for us bringing in a thirdparty, that's comfortable with
telling both of us that We'reseeing something wrong or
confronting us if we're just notright about something like you
need, you need that kind of aperson in your life.
So that's how it works for us.
My
Jamie (05:11):
guy is, I always say he lets me do what I'm going to do
until it really matters.
Right.
So for the two of us, I think heis, he is absolutely happy to
just let me do what I feel isbest, and I think part of that
comes from having kids before Imet him.
Right.
So bringing kids into thatsituation I think kind of lended
(05:31):
it easily to be like, you know,you're in the lead.
If you need something, let meknow.
When I hear him express a strongopinion, I know that it's
important to him and that that'stypically when I will negotiate
from there.
He doesn't sweat stuff, youknow, he doesn't sweat the small
things and he knows that thosesmall things really can make me
sweat.
He's content to just, Let me dowhat works best for me because
(05:54):
he can deal with it 90 percentof the time.
This is what's interesting to methough, is that I feel like
that's more a personality thingthan it is a gender thing.
You know what I mean?
I think he's just so much morelaid back and can roll with the
punches pretty easily.
Jim (06:07):
I agree with that.
I think my relationship is morepersonality based as well.
I think it might get to thepoint where maybe mediation is
necessary, but I don't thinkgender roles has ever been,
especially because of ourbackgrounds.
We have that sort of traditionalfaith background.
There might be, well, the man isthe head of the house and
therefore he gets to make thedecision.
(06:30):
That could be a whole tangent.
But when you talk about.
Submission and all that kind ofstuff.
That's not saying that the manis the de facto one who gets to
decide everything in a family.
That is not what that means.
So again, we can debate thattopic, but at least in our case,
it's not gender defined who getsto ultimately make the decision.
(06:52):
I think you have to consider theimpact that it has on the
relationship and you can'tfigure it out.
You probably should seek someoutside help.
Ben (07:00):
Yeah.
You mentioned being the head ofthe household.
I remember early in our marriagewhere my wife was kind of making
some, statements to that effect.
And I just looked at her and Isaid, I am not comfortable with
that language and thatresponsibility.
I married you because you are abold, fierce, independent,
(07:22):
strong woman.
I am not here to squash that.
I don't think that a properinterpretation of that is that
the dude's always right becausehe's got a penis.
It's insane that the churchwould just latch on to that view
and Whether it's right, wrong,or otherwise, and I'm digging
(07:43):
myself in holes and Jim'slaughing at me,
Jim (07:46):
but The penis comment just got me.
Jamie (07:48):
No, I agree.
I go, you go, I agree.
Ben (07:53):
But, but why is it that way?
Why does that get to beculturally relevant today?
If that's the case, then let'sbe honest and consistent with
the totality of Scripture.
How is it that you can take onepassage because it matches up
with your value system and yourview of the world and run with
it?
(08:13):
But then, any passage ofscripture that's not clear, or
puts you in the position ofbeing wrong about something why
don't we latch on to those?
Mahlon (08:24):
So Ben, I think you just outlined another topic that I
would love to have a furtherdebate and conversation with you
in, because there is so muchthere that I was like, but wait,
oh, uh, wait, uh, uh, but no, I,I, I understand the spirit.
I love it.
And I love it.
And I'm, I'm following you.
I'm jumping right with you.
I do think for me when, becauseJamie knows this, and if you've
(08:47):
listened to any of our podcastsepisodes, you probably already
know this too.
Faith is really big to me.
My religion is, is reallyimportant to who I am.
And even with that being said,I've never once.
I've never seen it with myparents.
I've, I've never done it with mywife.
At least I hope I, I haven't, itis not my role because I'm a man
(09:08):
because I have the penis that Iget to have dominion over my
wife.
This is a partnership.
This is someone that I'vemarried that I, I care for and I
love because I need someone tohelp me steer the boat of life,
not just to be a passenger forme to tell what they get to do.
And I know there's some peoplethat take that and really run
(09:29):
with it and say, you know, manis ahead of the household, his
will, it's his way or no way,but that's not a relationship
I'm looking for.
And I know my wife and I, we'vehad conversations before in the
past where we've said part ofher boldness.
Is why I married her part of thereason why she's opinionated and
she gives her opinion and shespeaks up is part of the reason
(09:50):
why I love her.
I wanted to have her as apartner in my life is because I
know, and Jamie, you and I'vesaid this in the past, iron
sharpens iron, and I don't needsomebody to sit in the copilot
of this.
Of this ship, not helping mesharpen myself, not helping me
be better, not calling me out tothe carpet, you know, when I
(10:10):
say, and I have said some reallyodd and horrible things
throughout my life, I need herthere to be like, that's not
okay.
And she needs that for me.
And so it's not that one of us,because we're a certain gender
has that dominion over theother, it's truly a partnership.
I do have another question forthis group is, I don't know,
(10:34):
Jamie, this might be directedto, to you being the, you're all
woman.
This is something I don'tunderstand and it might've been
the way I was raised by mymother, but why is it when a
woman.
Gives her opinion or says thisis what we need to do or is
aggressive in any way for a manThat's a high five.
That's hey, that's what he'ssupposed to do for a woman.
(10:56):
It becomes the b word and That'ssomething I have never
understood.
I have never understood why if awoman is aggressive if a woman
is forward.
If a woman is making decisions,that label seems to fall on her.
But there's, there's nothingnegative when a man does it.
And I have, even as a littlekid, I have never understood why
(11:16):
that is there.
Jamie (11:17):
I think it's any time someone stands up.
against the flow of what'snaturally happening.
If you look at our society, itis a male dominated society.
Anytime a woman challenges that,that's when we get called out
for being too aggressive youknow what I mean?
And I think what's interestingabout that is that it's not just
(11:37):
It's not just women.
You know, if you think aboutother areas of social injustice
where, someone of color were tostand up to the injustices they
see in the system, they wouldalso be considered the typical
angry black man or whatever.
I think that's really sad.
And I don't know why that is.
Why is that still happening?
We are so evolved in so manyways and yet here we are.
(12:01):
So of course, when I stand upand say, that's not okay.
And I deserve different, or Ideserve better, or did you think
of this?
Then of course, that's going tobe taken as a challenge because
I'm challenging what is.
Mahlon (12:14):
Yeah, I don't understand that because again, I grew up
with a mom that was very forwardAgain, my mom and dad shared a
lot of responsibilities But mymom she ruled with an iron fist
and she ruled her business thatway She was a very shrewd
businesswoman but she didn'ttake crap from people and she
people knew where she they stoodwith her and And a lot of people
(12:37):
did not like her because of it.
And I know a lot of people tryto sidestep my mother to
interact with my dad.
And there's been a couple oftimes growing up.
I remember specifically, I needto speak to the man of the house
and my mom would absolutely shutthat down.
And we, she used to have peoplecall and say, is your husband
home?
no, but I'm the wife orwhatever.
(12:58):
And they would say, no, I wantto speak to your husband.
It would drive her nuts.
People would call if they had acredit card bill and the credit
card would call, they would askto speak to my dad.
Both of my parents names were onit.
And my mom would say, well, I'm,They would give her she would
give her name and they would saywell No, we'll call back when
he's available And I haven'tseen that so much being married
(13:18):
in the younger generation and Icall myself the younger
generation in this example Butthat doesn't really seem to
happen as often it has happeneda couple times in our marriage
and Both my wife and I shut thatdown real quick, but I remember
as a kid, it almost happened allthe time.
It was almost like this aversionto be able to talk with the
woman or the wife in order tohave those conversations.
(13:39):
And I, I just, I scratched myhead.
I never really understood whythat was there.
Jamie (13:43):
that was the eighties and the nineties.
And that is absolutely athrowback to the fifties when
women couldn't have a checkingaccount.
Everything had to be through thehusband.
It's interesting how long thathas hung on and yeah, we don't
get phone calls like thatanymore.
I can make independent choicesregardless of whether I'm
married, single or otherwise.
As a woman, I do have many morechoices than maybe even my mom
(14:07):
would have had.
But still there's so much ofthat that hangs on.
It's just in different ways now.
And that's really, reallyunfortunate.
And that's the societalconstruct.
Mahlon (14:17):
Well, one last question that I have, and I'm curious, on
what this group thinks.
And I'm going to, fall intothis.
I'm going to be the first one tosay this, this gender identity.
I, I fall into this and I'mspraying this all over
everybody.
So again, I'm using my worldviewand I'm saying, this is how
typically everybody is, and Iknow that that is wrong.
So I'm, I'm coming to this groupsaying, I know that this is a
(14:40):
stereotype that I hold dear.
And I wonder how different it isfor, for other people.
So.
In order for me to identifylove, it's a respect thing.
And so I'll go back to mymarriage here for a second.
If there's times in my marriagewhere I don't feel like I'm
being respected, that is a signof me not being loved.
(15:03):
My wife, however, does not lookat it that way.
She does not look at it from arespect level at all.
She looks at it from, there arethings that I can do.
And again, everybody'sdifferent.
I get that, but there's actions.
There's things, there's things Ican say that I can do that can
show my love and appreciationfor her.
Does that seem to fall into ageneral.
gender norm, or am I an outlieror Jamie, do you look at respect
(15:29):
as a sign of love more than youdo?
Maybe an action.
I'm just curious how differentmy worldview is from the three
of yours.
Jamie (15:37):
I'll let you guys go first.
Cause I'm curious about this onetoo.
Ben (15:40):
First, can we get a working definition of what does respect
mean?
Cause I want to honor your, Viewof this and so knowing that
would be helpful.
Mahlon (15:52):
Let's say we'll go to the kids.
That's kind of an easier one Iwill say something and then
they'll go and my wife will hearthe answer that I've given and
The kids may go and ask her andshe'll give them a different
answer to me that is a sign ofdisrespect for me because I'm
like I've given an answer and Inour household, you ask one of
(16:13):
us, the other one upholds it,right?
And so there's been occasions,and I've done this too, I don't
want this to say this is oneway, I have done the same thing
to my wife too, but that wouldbe a good example where I have
given an answer.
And they'll go and ask my wifeand she'll go against what I
said to me.
That's a sign of disrespect.
And that's, that directlyimpacts my love meter.
(16:34):
And that is something that I'mlike, why would you do that?
If you loved me, you wouldn'thave done that to me.
And that really starts.
That, that wounds me more thananything is if I see a sign of
disrespect that is more hurtfulfor me than if somebody would
come up to me and say, you know,I really hate you right now or
don't like you that I look atthat through the lens of respect
(16:58):
so much more than anything else.
Does that help you, Ben?
Ben (17:01):
It does, yeah.
Thank you for that.
I can remember being in certainsituations like that where I
felt like the disrespect that Iwas getting from my wife somehow
meant that in that moment shewas not loving towards me.
I think it's a balance thingbecause there are times where
(17:22):
Especially in a crisissituation, or if you are dealing
with trauma, whether it's yourown or your spouses or your
kids, if it's like a seriousissue and the other spouse is
just being flippant about it,then yeah, I would definitely
question my wife's love for mein that moment.
(17:44):
However, if it's just asituation where life's busy and
maybe my wife and I didn'tcommunicate effectively and I
told the kid no, and then shewent and told them, yes, I
could, in that moment, choose toview that instance as a mountain
and get upset about it.
Or I could just look at it forwhat it is.
(18:06):
And the grand scheme of things,this is a mole hill.
I really don't need to questionmy wife's love for me because
she did something different ortold the kids differently.
For me, it really comes down toweighing them.
Like how important is this inthe grand scheme of things?
And then.
Break it down from there.
(18:27):
because what I found is I'vebeen in therapy for five years
with the same therapist and it'slike hardcore psychotherapy and
just really analyzing everydormant corner of my life and
just looking at it and asking,why is that there?
And I think a lot of times inthose moments where I feel
(18:49):
disrespected by my wife, it'sless to do with her and more to
do with me.
And so just being comfortableand recognizing that nine times
out of ten, she's really nottrying to disrespect me.
me.
It's just a miscommunication orsomething along those lines.
(19:12):
It's nuanced.
It's, it's not a clear cut thingfor me, but I would agree with
you in those.
super important moments.
Absolutely.
I need to be able to count on mywife's respect for either me or
my kids or whoever we're dealingwith.
And if that's not there, that'sa huge red flag.
Jim (19:33):
There's a book actually, Love and Respect, where it talks
about how women are reallylonging and searching for love,
and men really want thatrespect.
It's a shortcut.
Is it right?
Often?
Probably it can be.
But I just think you reallycan't make it a gender thing
because people are different.
And again, we live in a changingsociety where part of that
(19:57):
respect might have been becauseAll these parts of society are
trying to tell me as a man thatI need to be the breadwinner,
that I need to provide for myfamily.
And if I don't, I have failedthem.
And if I'm not being respected,then I'm not a good provider.
I haven't brought in the baconfor my family.
And so therefore I'm a failure.
(20:17):
When I go into my story, I havefailed so much along the way,
and I have never made more moneythan my wife.
She has always made more moneythan I am.
And that bothered me for awhile, honestly.
And I think it was because ofthose cultural tones that were
speaking into my ear that I'msupposed to be the one that's
(20:38):
providing to my family.
And I think it bothered me for along time.
But over time, I mean, we'vebeen married for 17 years now,
and I'm just over it.
Like, I know that she trusts me.
I know that she respects me.
And I always assume that she'snot intentionally trying to hurt
me.
So what am I misunderstanding?
(20:59):
Or what am I not hearing?
Or where have we gone the wrongway?
And so then I just get to theroot.
Of how I actually feel lovedrather than what society is
trying to tell me, which I willreference another book that I
really like is the five lovelanguages by Gary Chapman.
I am a physical touch kind ofguy, and a lot of people
(21:22):
conflate that with sexuality,but in my case, I just want to
hug.
I know that's ironic becausewe're real men, real men hug.
It's so funny, but my wife and Igot into a lot of arguments that
I'm just like, when I get homefrom work, I just want a hug.
That's how I feel loved.
My spouse comes to me,regardless of how busy she is,
(21:45):
and she's in the middle of doingthis or that.
And I know it's tough whenyou've got seven pans on the
oven trying to get dinner ready.
But when you come to me and Ican just Embrace you and let go
of those toxins from the day andfeel that warm embrace and just
soak in the knowledge that I'mhugging my dearest wife who
(22:07):
loves me just Talking about itmakes me feel that love for my
wife.
That is how I feel loved, isthat physical touch of the woman
that I love.
That's where it's coming from.
It's not about respect.
Words of affirmation areimportant too, but man, number
one on that list is thatphysical touch, that energy
(22:30):
that's going between her and I.
That's absolutely how I feelloved, and I don't think that
has anything to do with gender.
Jamie (22:36):
I absolutely agree with that.
Ben (22:41):
Pressing pause on the conversation for a quick second,
wanted to tell you aboutsomething that actually made
this conversation todaypossible.
Jim (22:50):
With the help of our listeners, we have been able to
get some new equipment to makethis show run more smoothly.
The fact that we were able tocollaborate with another
podcast, like we're talking withround table mindset today is
because of a generous donationfrom one of our listeners.
We have continual needs and wewant to continue to grow some of
(23:11):
those different equipmentpieces.
And even sometimes things justrequire extra memory, extra
equipment, extra subscriptions.
If you haven't yet hopped ontobuymeacoffee.
com, Slash real men, hug, checkthat out.
There are perks on there thatyou get depending on which tier
you pick.
Ben (23:30):
So check it out at buymeacoffee.
com slash real men hug.
And know that it certainly makesa huge difference for Jim and I
both..
Jim (23:40):
thanks for listening back to it with round table mindset.
Jamie (23:46):
I sometimes feel like I'm trying to bridge, this big gap
between what I saw when I wasyounger What I experienced
growing up, how I am today andwhat I want my, my daughter to
see and grow up, what kind ofworld I want her to grow up in
as a woman, you know?
(24:06):
It's funny because I have a lotof those same ideas, I assume.
When I see a snake, they wouldprefer to move away from me than
let me pet him.
Right?
So when I see a man, I assumethat he would receive love the
best by respect.
Right?
I mean, that is my experienceswith people, my own age.
And then.
(24:27):
I also don't think that that'show it's supposed to be forever.
And I do know for myself thatthat lack of respect thing can
be a real trigger for me.
There's a parenting curriculumthat I, that I facilitate.
And one of the concepts in thereis shark music.
And when this thing happens,it's triggering stuff in the
background for you and it'sshark music, right?
(24:49):
And that lack of respect is areal big part of it.
button for me to kind of triggerthat that emotion.
And I'm not sure why that is.
I've, I've long since I stoppedtrying to figure that out.
Other than I think that was thefirst example was with my
parents and how that was superimportant to both of them.
(25:09):
This idea of mutual respect andwhen that wasn't there on the
occasions that spousalrelationships have fights and
things happen in our said, I sawthat be real triggers for both
of my parents.
I think what makes me sad isthat I don't know that.
I feel like more women shoulddemand and expect a certain
(25:31):
level of respect not because I'ma man and that's how you show me
love.
I deserve that kind of respectto just as much as you're
telling me that this is how youreceive love.
Okay.
This is how I receive love too.
And let's talk about the otherlove languages.
You know what I'm saying?
Mahlon (25:47):
It's been a while for me to really think through and say
this is how I see love.
This is how I interpret love isthrough respect and disrespect.
A long time ago, it neveroccurred to me that that would
be a way that a woman would wantto be also loved.
I thought that was truly just aman's Way of showing love and
(26:08):
over the years and over theconversations and being married,
there is a level of respect thatI show my wife that shows her
how much I love her.
She just happens to have othermeans that she looks for than
that.
That is my main driver.
But there was a younger versionof myself not too long ago that
I thought that's because I was aman, a woman wouldn't ever look
(26:31):
at love the same way.
And so it's good to hear youhere to say that Jamie, because.
I have a daughter that I'mraising, and I have a daughter
that I am setting standards andexpectations for, and I have to
be mindful, and one of thethings that we're, that I'm
teaching her is, you have torespect yourself enough to know
when to walk away, you have toknow when it's not, it's, it's
(26:52):
no longer beneficial for anyone,including yourself to chase
something that's not good foryou, and if they disrespect you
in any level, it's That's yourcue to walk away.
And so it's funny as a dad, asI'm raising this young, this
young woman, and she's about tocross into adulthood, all those
lessons that I'm instilling her,and I'm thinking, wow, I'm
(27:13):
really blazing a trail herebecause I'm injecting in her all
these wonderful male conceptswhen actuality, she's setting
the, some of those up herself.
She's.
She's had conversations withpast boyfriends that i'm just
now hearing about Where she hasabsolutely put her foot down and
said that is not acceptable andI do not I do not accept that
Those are all because of herboundaries.
(27:34):
I was taking credit for some ofthose I think saying i'm
instilling this into my daughterand to some degree I am But what
she does with them is all herand so I love hearing you say
that because that is something Ihope my daughter takes and goes
forward with.
I hope she does demand respect.
I hope she does expect that tobe a two way street and if it's
(27:56):
lacking in her relationshipsthat she knows it's okay to walk
away and pull the ripcord.
I have a question.
I want to end on a statementabout generations, but I just
wanted to ask a question around,is there an expectation that is
set gender related that is seton you that just absolutely
drives you nuts.
I have one for me and it's not,it's not present in every
(28:19):
situation, but I haveexperienced this and I can see
it ebb and flow.
There's this element of, ifyou're a man, you are strong.
And what's confusing me is Ithink there's also, you can be
too strong and if you become toostrong, then that's a problem.
And so to me, this genderspecific expectation is.
It's, it's almost like, it's alose lose.
(28:42):
I can't be so strong, but then Ican't be too weak.
And I get it on both sides.
I get it from the male point ofview, and I also get it from the
female point of view.
I don't think we should look atit as how strong you are and you
are too strong.
But that is one that I havepersonally dealt with i've
experienced it And it it is hardbecause it keeps shifting
because it's one of those movingtargets that I I can't seem to
(29:04):
get right And in the in thesheer coincidence that I do get
it, right it shifts again, andthen i'm wrong So it's like i'm
always wrong no matter what I doin that case Anybody else have
one that you're thinking of?
Ben (29:17):
Definitely.
For me, it goes back to theworkplace.
I work in corporate America, fora, it's a small business on the
larger side.
So about 200 employees.
Females.
are the administrativeassistants or the secretaries.
Whenever somebody would come tothe office, it's a woman sitting
(29:41):
at the front desk.
There's still this expectationthat I sense every now and then
that the women who work incorporate America aren't the
decision makers and that there'sa man above her.
Administrative professional dayswas like last month, I think.
And I think one of the thingsthat happens so often in the
(30:03):
workplace is women just becomecomfortable with this idea that
their main role is to supportthe work of the higher ups who
are typically men.
And so they get comfortable injust being in an administrative
role their entire career.
But I look at that and itbothers me because I see so much
(30:24):
potential in these women.
There are two employees that Icould realistically go to and
say, Hey, I've got this biglunch coming up.
Can you go pick up the food forit?
And they would just be like, ofcourse I'd be happy to, and
they'd run with it.
That bothers me because I don'twant them to fall into thinking
(30:44):
that that's all that they canoffer.
And so any chance that I canget, I try really hard to point
out the things that they'redoing.
Well, and if I hand a task tothem to do and they do it, well,
I let the rest of the companyknow, and I celebrate it.
And what ends up happening isthat woman realizes that she's
(31:07):
so much more than an assistantand she can contribute.
To the company success.
And one of those individualsthat I mentioned, she is now
moving into a different rolewhere she has more say so, and,
and more ability to, determinethe course of the company versus
just, being the errand runner orthe administrative brain, like
(31:33):
she could be so much more thanthat.
And I celebrate that, but that'sthe biggest thing for me is
women in the workplace who arejust Assume that that's the end
all be all of their career.
Jamie (31:44):
I like that.
For me, the gender constructsthat is probably the most
harmful for me is this ideathat, I have to hold it all
together and I can't strugglewith it.
When I, was actively parentingyoung kids.
It's single and juggling acareer and shifting into
(32:08):
leadership in that career.
there was no space for me not tohave it all together.
And if I don't have it alltogether, there is some serious
judgment that comes with that.
Like I'm failing as a woman, youknow what I mean?
I think that's probably thehardest thing is that I, I don't
get to be human because I haveto, outperform.
I have to outperform a manbecause I still have to earn my
(32:32):
seat at the table is sometimeshow I feel.
I remember my dad telling mewhen I was young whenever you
have the opportunity to go tothe doctor and there's a woman
doctor, always go to them causethey had to work harder to get
through medical school, youknow?
And I think that there is apiece of me that still lives in
that space where I still feellike I have to be better than
it's even possible for me to be,because I have to earn my space.
(32:55):
I have to earn my place at thetable.
That's the most harmful genderstereotype or expectation that I
encounter.
Jim (33:04):
I think mine is probably similar to Mahlon's, just that
expectation that men always haveto have it together, we have to
be the strong ones, and there'sthis cultural push towards,
really almost that we justshouldn't have feelings, or if
we do, you just push them down,you don't acknowledge that
(33:25):
they're there, but then on theother end of it, people want you
to be sensitive and, and in tuneand, and supportive and there's
kind of this push towardsandrogyny which is almost be
less of a man, but also be aman.
I don't know if you guys haveseen that Barbie movie that came
out.
There's that scene where,America Ferreira.
(33:45):
Is that the one you guys don'tknow or care, but,, the actress
who had the speech where she wastalking about gender roles and
how women are expected to bethis, but also that and do this,
but don't do it too much and bethat, but don't be too
aggressive and all of that.
I wish that there was a maleequivalent to that in media that
(34:05):
I could point to because that'show I feel in our society where.
We're expected to be this butalso this and that but not too
much and this and that and be bestrong But in touch with your
feelings, but be a man about itand rub dirt on it But also and
it's just what do you want me tobe because when I am myself I
(34:27):
feel like I'm I'm ridiculed forit and I don't fit anywhere and
I am a sensitive guy And I thinkthat's a good thing But a lot of
people say that that's not okayAnd so I just don't Feel like I
can be comfortable in my ownskin walking around.
Jamie (34:44):
You know, Jim, you just magnified for me the point that
What I'm hearing from you soundsand feels very similar to the
way I feel.
And and I think what'sinteresting is that I think
there are so many pressures oneither side of both men and
women That it it just to me justputs an exclamation point on Why
(35:08):
can't we be more about peopleand less about?
Well, you're a man, so you haveto do this, or you're a woman,
so you have to do that, or youshouldn't do that because you're
a woman or whatever.
Oh, if there's one thing that Iwish we really could move toward
is this idea that we don't haveto determine someone based on a
gender role or a genderexpectation.
(35:29):
Why can't we just be people?
And if we could just be people,how much easier would it be to
navigate moving forward?
My gender has nothing to do withmy ability.
It has nothing to do with mybrains.
It has nothing to do with mycompassion or ability to do math
or science or anything else.
And how are we still talkingabout this after 1970?
(35:49):
You know what I mean?
Like, why are we still here?
That will probably forever be mybattle cry
Mahlon (35:56):
I want to end my rant or my, my conversation with a
lesson.
I learned just recently from myson.
I've learned that the bestlessons in life come from the,
the teachable moments my kidsgive to me.
So I have an example of ateachable moment and it touches
on generation.
And I think this is a positivelens to everything we've been
(36:20):
talking about and how theyounger generation is going to
move the needle just as much asI can say, we've moved the
needle and our generation fromthe previous one, they're moving
the needle even more.
I was with my youngest son.
And we were at, a conveniencestore.
We were getting him a grilledcheese sandwich and we were
(36:40):
getting some pop.
And we were in line and heordered and on the thing it said
it was 2.
39.
Yet when he got his ticket, herealized and he looked at it and
it was more money than that.
And he said, well, why does itcost more?
And I said, well, there wastaxes and we're in line, get
ready to pay.
And he goes, well, that'sstupid.
He goes, your price of it thatyou purchase it should have the
(37:02):
tax included.
And why does it have to bethere?
And this guy standing in lineleans over and he goes you have
a very smart kid there and Isaid, oh well Thank you.
I said, I really appreciate thatand I said say thank you and he
said thank you And then thisgentleman went one step further
and he was probably the samegeneration as me So am I saying
this is an older man?
(37:22):
I'm saying it's right around theage that I am and he leans down
to my son and he goes now You goand you change it and he walked
away and I stood there for asecond You And all of a sudden,
all these moments from when Iwas a kid started flooding in.
When I was a young kid, I wastold to leave things alone.
(37:43):
Stop messing with things.
Don't change it.
If it's not broke, don't fix it.
I mean, that's I've heard that amillion times.
And here this man that my sonnever knew.
Got down on his level and lookedat him and say, and in so many
words, I expect you to changethis, be empowered enough that
you can make a difference.
It doesn't have to stay this wayfor you.
(38:05):
And I know we're not talkingabout a subject that is specific
to gender or expectations, but Ithink it can be applied here.
And I think this is what we'reseeing.
Because I think the door is alot more open for the younger
generation and the expectationsthat are being set to them is
saying, you can change this.
You don't have to live in thisworld anymore.
Whereas when I was a kid, it wasestablished and I had to work
(38:27):
through it.
I asked my daughter some ofthese same questions that we're
talking about today.
And she had a really greatresponse.
She said in my generation, dad,why does gender have to be even
a mention when we're talkingabout some of these things?
What does it matter if you're amale or a female with some of
these discussion points that wewere talking about?
(38:48):
And we went around a lot of thesame things we're talking about
here.
We talked about workplace.
We talked about jobs.
We talked about placement.
We talked about getting ahead.
We talked about what's positiveand negative.
And we went through it all.
And she ultimately just lookedat me and said, why does it
matter?
What does it matter if you're amale or a female?
And I think that kind of.
(39:08):
Mindset is what's going tochange this in the future.
And I think having the mindsetto say, it doesn't matter and we
shouldn't be looking at it andwe're not going to look at it.
And then having the ability tobe encouraged to make the
change.
I think those two piecestogether give a good.
Outlook of the future generationspecifically around this topic.
Jamie (39:28):
Well, and to add one more thing to that, I think the other
piece of that then is not tostand in the way of that,
because I think we could easily,as policy changes, as social
media changes, as all of thosethings change, we could easily
dig our heels in and this iswhat we know.
And this is what we expect.
I think we've seen that.
(39:48):
Even as we are pushing to makechanges.
Right?
My message to my daughter is, Iwill go with you.
I will support you in makingthose changes.
You lead the way because you arewell equipped to do so.
And you see things differently.
And I'm right here with you.
And, and I'm not going to sitcomplacently and let it stay the
way it is.
(40:09):
I'm going to support thosechanges.
Jim (40:10):
Well, and I'll say for our part, that's why real men hug
was so excited to do acollaboration with round table
mindset, because I think we'reboth here trying to be the
change that we want to see inthe world.
So if you want to make thesechanges, that's what Ben and I
do on our podcast.
We're trying to be vulnerableand.
Let men know that it's okay toshare your feelings and that
(40:34):
there are other people that feelthat way too.
And I've seen that reflected inyour show as well.
So how neat that we're able tocome together and be like, yeah,
we get to be the change.
We get to be the generation andthe people that tried to turn
some things around.
So that's super exciting to me.
Jamie (40:51):
Yes.
Yes.
It's, it's been fun.
And you guys are really, you'redoing an awesome thing.
And that's where Mahlon and Icome from, with Roundtable
Mindset too, is, to be able tobring the different perspectives
in and look at things in adifferent way.
That's how we make changes.
When we can shift our ownmindset to say, Hmm, maybe the
way I see it, isn't reality foreveryone.
(41:12):
that's how we move forward aspeople.
This has been awesome because itblends so nicely.
So thanks for having thanks forhaving us and joining us on our
on our show, too Yeah,
Mahlon (41:22):
I love the fact that we're not afraid to Have the
real conversations we need toand we ask the questions that
people try to avoid I see it inyour show and I see it in our
show And I think that's when youhave real change is when you can
address it Ignoring it doesn'tever help.
I see that in your podcast youhave those real moments where
you have the real conversationand you're not afraid to say
(41:42):
what needs to be said and andyou do it in a very nice way And
I think that's that's the artthat Jamie and I are trying to
Talk about on our show too isyou can't just come in with a
sledgehammer You have to come insometimes with the finesse, but
doesn't mean you don't ask thequestions It doesn't mean you
don't go to the topic.
It just means that your approachmay have to shift and.
That was a big lesson that we'vehad to learn and I'm going to
(42:03):
say I've had to learn.
So this has been really great.
I, again, I, I love your podcastand I love the opportunity to
actually sit down around theround table and have a
conversation with room and hug.
It's been a, it's been a delightfor me.
It really has.
Yeah.
Ben (42:15):
Thank you.
Yeah.
And just to wrap.
Hearing you guys talk about howthings can be different, the
stories of your kids, Mahlon,just hit the heart in a really
good way.
I think to stop conforming tothe way things always are, it
starts with our thoughts, and wehave control over those
(42:36):
thoughts, and it's the renewingof our minds that is going to
bring about change.
Thoughts create your feelings,feelings create your actions,
and actions create your results.
I think that sums up ourconversation here today very
well, and that's my hope forleaving this round table, that
(42:57):
our mindsets would be renewed,because change really does start
with our thoughts.
I know I've been challenged insome ways in my own thoughts
today, so thank you guys.
Mahlon (43:06):
Yeah.
Thank you guys.
All right.
We should probably go.
Although I could talk literallyfor another two hours, but I
can't see everybody's eyes.
I'm tell I gift of gab, gift ofgab right here.
Ask JB.
She sometimes just has to cutoff and leave because she's
like,
Ben (43:20):
I gotta go.
Mahlon (43:22):
Yeah, exactly.
Jamie (43:23):
Let's do it again.
Yeah.
Mahlon (43:25):
Yes.
Let's make sure we do it again..
Bye everyone.
Ben (43:29):
Well, I hope you enjoyed listening to that conversation
as much as Jim and I enjoyedhaving it.
Jamie and Mahlon are twoincredible people who had the
most kind things to say aboutReal Men Hug, about Jim and I
and our interactions.
Jim (43:46):
I had a blast talking with them and I'm so excited that
they were the first group thatwe got a chance to collaborate
with.
We just have a synergy and Jamieand Mahlon are just genuine,
great people.
We had a really niceconversation before we even hop
on the podcast and it's justneat because they have a very
similar mission to ours.
(44:06):
That they just want to light upsome of those dark corners and
they want to have these realconversations to encourage
people to be their authenticselves.
Selves and find your people likewe say so much on this show.
Ben (44:18):
If you enjoyed the podcast, please take a moment to rate,
review, and subscribe.
We are on Spotify and ApplePodcasts.
Your feedback means a lot andhelps others discover the show.
Jim (44:33):
Now we have to get up and actually
Ben (44:35):
get up and press a button
Jim (44:36):
oh my gosh Jamie, you know, I was resisting singing.
I'm every woman over here.
I did.
I did.
I saw it and I was like, it'sawesome.
It's awesome.
Ben (44:57):
A hundred percent.
Jamie (44:59):
Oh, recording has ended.
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