May 16, 2024 • 40 mins
In a world where adult friendships often take a backseat, hosts Ben and Jim embark on a journey through the complexities of maintaining meaningful connections amidst the chaos of various life stages, including raising young children. Drawing from their own experiences and heartfelt insights, they navigate the highs and lows of friendship with candor, humor, and understanding.
From sharing laughter over shared hobbies to weathering the storms of life together, Ben and Jim explore the essence of true friendship. But it's not just about companionship; it's about intentional efforts and mutual support. Tune in as they unravel the art and struggle of adult friendships, offering advice on finding like-minded companions and nurturing bonds that withstand the test of time.
And hey, if you love what you hear, consider supporting the show at buymeacoffee.com/realmenhug. Your contributions keep us going and help us bring you more episodes filled with laughter, insights, and relatable stories. Join us in growing and strengthening our community of real men who aren't afraid to hug it out. Thank you for being a vital part of our journey!
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Ben (00:02):
Welcome to real men hug a podcast for men and the women
who love them.
I'm Ben and
Jim (00:10):
I'm Jim.
Welcome to the show.
Did you forget your line?
Ben (00:19):
I was trying to remember if that was something I said, or
you said,
Jim (00:21):
no, that's fair.
It's a poignant, poignant thingto say.
Welcome to the show.
We're talking about friendstoday.
Ben (00:28):
Jim, you're my friend,
Jim (00:29):
you're my friend.
We wanted to talk about friendstoday.
I mean, that's been a strugglefor both of us since.
I don't know, for me, it'sreally since having kids, I
would say it's probably been astruggle to some extent after
college, but I was kind offortunate that I stuck around
(00:50):
because I worked at the college,so I got to maintain a lot of
those friendships that I haddeveloped with, you know, people
who are a little bit youngerthan me and then the people who
also worked at the school at thesame time.
So I think I got to keep thatcommunity.
I know for a lot of people,those changes in life stages
kind of knock those friendshipsoff.
(01:12):
So.
Ben (01:13):
Yeah, as is the case often in my life, my experience with
friendship in adulthood is, isvastly different from what it is
for most adults, yourselfincluded.
You were just talking about howdifficult it's been in adulthood
for friendship but for me in myexperience.
(01:35):
I had the most trouble withfriendship in my early days.
Like, middle school, probablyeven earlier than that.
But middle school was insanelydifficult.
I did not have more than maybeone or two friends that I could
actually count on as friends.
And then I went from thatenvironment into high school.
(01:58):
And for those four years, I wasvery much a social nomad.
Like I just could not find my,my niche with anybody.
And so I just would hang outwith all kinds of different
people and just kind of figuredout a way to survive.
And so Jim, our friendshipspanning 20 years is the longest
friendship that I've had ever.
Jim (02:19):
Yeah.
Ben (02:20):
I don't talk often, if at all, to anybody from high school
or middle school or elementaryschool, like they just don't
exist.
Jim (02:31):
Yeah.
I'm kind of in the same boat.
I know I did have a differentexperience where.
You may be surprised to hearthat I actually was pretty
introverted and didn't have aton of friends all the way up
until right around high school.
I had essentially one friend allthrough elementary school.
And he is my oldest friend.
(02:53):
We called him 5th brother Mikebecause he's always around.
We called him as He's stillaround.
He, he actually lives a littlebit farther away now, so I don't
get to see him as much.
It's not super easy for us tocatch lunch or coffee or
whatever.
But we still typically see eachother at least once a year.
Yeah.
We'll make it a point to seeeach other, but that's about it.
(03:14):
I don't really hang out with aton of people from.
High school either it really atall
Ben (03:20):
so when I came to college, that was like my first
experience with genuinefriendship, I would say, whereas
my friends leading up to that.
I had some decent, okay, I hadone solid friendship in high
school, but that's kind offizzled out since then.
But other than maybe I, likethree at the most, I didn't have
(03:44):
a ton of friends growing up.
And so now as an adult, knowingwhat I missed out on as a kid, I
make friendship A significantpriority in my life because I
know how badly I need it.
How badly I need thoseconnections with people.
Jim (04:04):
Do you think social media has changed how friendships work
now?
Ben (04:11):
Definitely.
Good old social media.
I.
currently have a, it's not alove hate relationship with
Facebook.
It's a hate relationship withFacebook.
Jim (04:20):
Just plain pure unfettered hatred.
Ben (04:23):
I just don't like it right now.
I'm very frustrated with thewhole premise of Facebook, but
in our.
Conversation on the episodeabout toxic positivity.
We talked about social media andit's just helped me realize how
dependent I was on social mediaand how I was turning to it for
(04:46):
a hit of dopamine or whatever.
But at the end of the day, whatI've realized is Facebook is
basically a hall of fame foryour friends where you can post
your highlight reels and you canone up each other and you can
say things that make you looksmart, but nobody's posting
about the difficult things inlife.
(05:07):
Does it help with friendship?
I don't think it does.
I connected to some people onFacebook from high school and
stuff like that, but they arenot what I would consider a
friend by any means.
It's just watching people'slives unfold.
And if there's drama, it makesit more fun to watch.
Jim (05:26):
I am really bad about posting on Facebook anymore.
And I think it's because Ifinally figured out how to get
Facebook to work for me becauseI was getting really sick of
like the comparison game and itdid feel sort of like the, the
highlight reel.
And we talked about that.
There's a time and a place forit.
Post your coffee, post yourvacation.
(05:46):
Great.
If that's helpful for you, I'mnot knocking social media
through that regard.
But I think for folks like Benand I, sometimes we have to step
away from that.
I found where I love Facebook isyou really can, to some extent
anyways, manicure it into whatyou want it to.
So like, I really love doing theminiature painting.
So I subscribe to a bunch of theminiature painting groups or one
(06:10):
of the board games that I havepainted a bunch of figures from
is hero quest.
So I'm on.
The hero quest page, even thereal men hug interacting with a
podcast support group that we'remembers of, and I've gotten to
know some of the folks fromround table mindset.
A rude dude.
Podcast is another one that Ireally enjoyed listening to
(06:31):
their stuff.
We'll probably do something withthem.
Eyeopener society is anotherpodcast that.
I'd love to have Hannah on toshare her story.
I know I'm going to miss peoplebecause there's a bunch of
people in that group.
That's my point that I've reallyenjoyed getting to know them and
chatting with those people.
And that's been so life givingbecause those people that I
(06:52):
mentioned, they are not theFacebook highlight real kind of
people.
If you listen to round tablemindset or rude dude, or
eyeopener society, they talkabout very real raw stuff, just
like we do.
I would definitely recommendthose podcasts.
That's what I've really enjoyedabout Facebook is getting to
know some of these folks that Iwouldn't have gotten to know
(07:14):
otherwise.
I've actually really enjoyedbeing able to do this show.
With you and make some newfriends.
Ben (07:20):
Definitely.
It's really cool that you'vebeen able to do that.
I'm just not at a point where Ihave a healthy enough
relationship with Facebook totake advantage of it in that
way.
Jim (07:30):
So if you're listening, if real men hug responds to you,
Ben (07:34):
it's Jim.
It's not Ben
Jim (07:36):
every once in a while.
It's Ben, but usually
Ben (07:39):
moving from this point forward until I get over my ish
with Facebook, it's going to beJim.
Jim (07:46):
Yeah, for sure,
Ben (07:48):
and one thing I appreciate about our friendship, Jim, is
the fact that I can pull off ofFacebook and know that.
A, you're going to understandwhy, B, you're going to support
me in it, and most importantlythese days, C, you're going to
pick up the slack that my breakfrom social media naturally puts
(08:10):
on you and you're not even goingto complain about it.
I love that about ourfriendship.
Jim (08:16):
Yeah, we're here to help each other.
I mean, we kind of alluded tothat in our marriage episode But
friendship is really like thattoo.
Like you're picking up eachother's burdens.
You're helping each other out.
You're assuming the best of eachother.
Those are those true richfriendships that you know, you
can treasure when you trust thatperson implicitly to be able to
(08:39):
step in when you can't do it.
I love that.
I've got you as a friend that Ican know and trust to do that.
Little peek and insight into Jimand Ben's show.
We genuinely like each other.
I don't know if you picked thatup or not, but we just, we like
hanging out with each other.
We hang out outside of the show.
(08:59):
and Ben has alluded to it, butlike our friendship is not about
the show.
I'll be honest and say we'refriends because of the show.
Like that's a big part of whatrekindled our friendship, but
it's so much more deep thanthat.
And that's why, like, forinstance, some of that's heavy
stuff that Ben has.
Talked about and alluded to.
(09:20):
We haven't done an episode onjust to get the juicy gossip,
because we care about eachother, we care about each
other's feelings and what's bestfor that person.
So that friendship comes first.
The relationship always comesfirst.
Right.
Ben (09:35):
Absolutely.
When I think about friendship,the defining mark is something
you hit on so well, and that isthe looking out for each other.
What makes a friendship stick?
In every friendship I can thinkof, it's that element of
somebody having your back,thinking the best about you, and
(09:57):
wanting the best for you aswell..
Yeah, It's really hard tomaintain Friendship if those
things aren't in place.
Jim (10:04):
Yeah, let's dive deep Ben I think what's really hard for
some people is they feel likethey are always the one who are
reaching out.
And when somebody else has aproblem, they come and of course
you help because it's in yournature, but when you have a
problem, you have to paysomebody else to help you
(10:26):
through it.
Counseling, right?
You know, no, nobody's therewhen you need something, but if
they need somebody to movesomething, you're there with
your truck, or if, if they havea crisis, you're showing up for
them.
If it weren't for you shoot Iwould be in a similar position
where it's like who do you go toThat actually cares about me and
(10:48):
it's not just using me for whatthey can get out of the friend.
Yeah Oh, yeah, you know what?
I mean?
Ben (10:53):
Absolutely I have had friendships like that where it
was based on what I could do forthe other person.
And, I used to think that it wasselfish for me to look out for
myself and to be frustrated withthat person.
I would Think that I should justgo with it.
Maybe in this season of life,they just need more than they
(11:17):
can give.
But when I stepped back andlooked at some of those
friendships, what I realized wasour entire relationship was
built on what I could give andwhat they could take.
And.
That's a super toxic type offriendship to have.
Jim (11:35):
I've had friends like that for sure, where we always had to
go to their place.
They weren't coming to ourplace.
And it was always what theywanted to do based on their
schedule.
I've had those friendships whereit's, you have to put in all of
that work and there's just nograce.
There's no flexibility.
Here's the, here's the deal.
(11:56):
It's really easy to be friendswhen you live that, I call it
that hashtag blessed life.
Like when you live in deepprivilege and you've got endless
amounts of money and time andyou can, you've got somebody,
Hey, you guys want to Fly out toDisney this year.
That'd be so fun with ourfamilies and not knocking that
(12:18):
if you can do it.
Awesome.
I'm glad that you can, but whatif you lose your job and you
can't afford to go to Disney,you kind of have a tendency to
go without them.
And you find somebody who canlike that broken person who lost
their job, who lost their kid,who lost their spouse.
They, they need something fromyou.
(12:41):
And now you don't show upbecause honestly, you weren't.
Really their friend.
You were using them for that funof experience.
Let me restate it.
There are degrees of friendship.
Sure.
Yes.
You don't know what it's like tobe anything other than a shallow
friend.
There are people that you enjoytheir company.
(13:02):
You will go out and you'll havelunch with them and you'll have
fun and you appreciate that partof their aspect.
But when shit gets real, you'reout.
You don't want to help them.
You don't want to support them.
You don't want to be there forthem when they really need your
help.
So you just stick around peoplethat don't.
If you run away from anybody whohas any level of brokenness, you
(13:24):
might want to have a certainlevel of introspection.
Is it that that person is needyor is it that you're incapable
of meeting somebody in theirneed?
Are you the problem?
Or are they the problem?
Ben (13:38):
One aspect that makes all of what you just talked about so
challenging is the fact that inlife there are different phases
and the people that we choose toassociate ourselves with they're
not necessarily going to be atthe same phase of life that we
are.
Sure.
Take, for example, yourparenting experience.
(14:01):
Though you've been marriedlonger, your kids are quite a
bit younger than my kids.
So in our friendship, you don'thave the experience of having
teenagers, right?
There's just some things thatyou won't be able to relate to,
but that's okay because we haveso much other things that we can
(14:22):
relate to on.
But if the friend is in adifferent stage of life and
they've not had nearly theamount of shared experiences
that you and I have, I candefinitely see how that
friendship Suffer and struggle.
Jim (14:37):
One way I see that happen a lot is when people get married
and when people have kids or notget married and not have kids,
that seems to be one of thebiggest deal breakers for
friendships.
That's a stage of life thingthat, once you have kids, it's
the rare person that can stillmaintain those friendships.
(14:59):
Cause when you, especially thelittles man, especially my
littles.
Don't get me started.
To my oldest son, if he'slistening to this podcast,
hopefully not until he's in hislate twenties or early thirties,
just know with love, you werethe toughest kid.
And.
To my oldest son, if he'slistening to this podcast,
(15:21):
hopefully not until he's in hislate twenties or early thirties,
just know with love, you werethe toughest kid.
It was impossible To havefriends because he was just such
a hard kid to raise and he hadcolic.
So he was puking all the time.
He couldn't sleep.
He had rashes all over his bodythat we constantly had to be
(15:45):
treating with medication andnever slept.
We never slept.
It was just miserable.
So how are you supposed tobalance friendships with all of
that?, it was impossible.
Just the sleep thing alone.
We were, we were so miserable.
We could not maintainfriendships.
I need that like a male figurein my life to be able to bond
(16:07):
with, because I mean, who areyou going to talk to about your
spouse, for instance, just thatin and of itself.
I feel like you need to havesomebody else to just be able to
be able to comfortable withoutfeeling like you're
unintentionally hurtingsomebody's feelings or it's just
some stuff you don't talk toyour spouse about.
Ben (16:25):
So in my case, I did have a pretty solid friend.
I met him in high school.
We stayed friends throughcollege and like fifth brother
Mike, this friendship had thepotential to extend into
adulthood and I tried so hard tomake that happen with this
(16:45):
individual.
But it turned into one of thosesituations where I was doing all
the work.
Yeah.
He would never call me to checkin.
I'd have to call him.
He never reached out to set upplans when he was in town.
I would have to hear through thegrapevine that he was going to
be in town, and then I would setsomething up.
(17:07):
Yeah.
And so it got to a point a fewyears ago where we sat down and
And I just said, it's reallyhard to be your friend, and it's
really hard to know if this issomething you really even want.
And he just acknowledged that hewas jealous of how easily I
(17:31):
found work after college andhow, easily I was able to go to
Cornerstone for four consecutiveyears where he struggled
Honestly, he was, he was,financially savvy than I ever
was at that age.
(17:51):
He chose to take the slow routeand pay for his schooling as he
went.
Because I chose to take onstudent loans, which, I will
never do again.
I finished on time and hedidn't.
And he felt like I outpaced himin life and that he fell behind.
And I never felt that way, buthe was jealous of me for many
(18:16):
years.
And it was that jealousy andthat frustration with how his
life turned out in comparison tomine that really made it hard
for our friendship to survive.
Yeah.
And unfortunately thatfriendship did not survive.
I've, I've cut my losses.
It was one of the hardest thingsthat I had to do friends wise,
(18:39):
because this is somebody who wasthere for me.
I was his best man and he was mybest man, but beyond 2006, The
friendship imploded and it wasjealousy, mainly, but what's
crazy is we talk about theFacebook highlight reel and all
(19:01):
of that.
All he could see of my life wasthe good stuff.
The, the finishing college, thefinding a job right out of
college, which I'll admit ispretty.
Uncommon to graduate and thenthe next day move across the
country to your first full timejob in your field of study.
(19:25):
I get it.
Like that is uncommon and rare.
I can see where he's comingfrom.
But man, outside of those tworeally good things, there was so
much pain that I don't feel likehe even saw or understood
because he could only see thegood things that he was jealous
of and it ended our friendship.
Jim (19:47):
We wanted to take a break in the middle of this
conversation to remind you thatwe have got this new campaign
that you can help support ourshow.
Buy me a coffee.
It's in the show notes.
We've got it up on the episodenotes and the Facebook page, so
be sure to check out.
Buy me a coffee.
We would love any amount ofsupport from our listeners.
(20:08):
It helps us do what we do.
Ben (20:10):
So check it out at buymeacoffee.
com slash real men hug.
And know that it certainly makesa huge difference for Jim and I
both.
Jim (20:23):
That's so tough to hear.
I do wonder, and this is not indefense of that guy, but you
know, in an earlier episode Italked about the wall kind of
around your identity and how youmight have those high points
where if people attack youthere, like you're solid because
that's not, you know, A questionin your identity, but speaking
as somebody who career was thatlike broken point of the wall
(20:47):
where just anybody could walkin, I wonder if for him, that
was that broken part of him,that it wasn't necessarily that
he didn't see the, that Therewas only good things in your
life, but that it was just thesuccess he was seeing.
It was just too hard for him todeal with because that was the
weak point in his wall.
(21:07):
I just wonder, do you think thatthat was where some of that came
from?
Or do you just think he totallylost sight of the fact that your
life wasn't as privileged androsy as he thought it was?
That's a really good question.
I only see it from theperspective of he was jealous.
(21:29):
See, Jim, this is why I likehaving you as a friend, because
you, you hear me and youvalidate what I have to say, but
you also have this way of gentlyand kindly saying, well, what
about this?
And it's something that I've notthought of, and I just really
appreciate that.
(21:50):
It's something that I've had tostruggle with.
We had some friends that ghostedus and we.
Had no clue why it at least feltlike ghosting to us where we're
reaching out.
We're trying to get somethinggoing.
And I had even said like, nomatter what, I am going to make
(22:11):
this, double date happen.
And we did, but it was like thisvery painful process to finally
get it to, to work.
But after that, like I need themto.
Come to us because it took me somuch prodding and a hundred
percent, like, we're going to doyour thing your way so that we
(22:32):
can have this friendship work.
I was just exhausted and I feltat the time that we were the
only ones doing the work andthen it's just like, okay, like,
oh, clearly they need spacebecause to us it felt like they
were almost like pushing usaway.
So it's like, okay, we're goingto give them the space that they
want.
(22:52):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And then just boom, essentiallyfriendship done well, fast
forward well into the future.
And it really was again, likethis space that they were in
that they just didn't have thecapacity to reach out.
And that's not to point fingersin one direction or the other,
(23:14):
but it's just that insight oflike, okay, why, why did this
happen?
Why?
I think you can just be mad andupset, especially when you don't
have that closure and it feelsunfair.
Why did he do that?
We had a good friendship?
Why couldn't he get over it?
I at least like to ask myselfthe question, like what
happened?
Ben (23:34):
Yeah.
And looking at his story, Ithink the reason why my success
hurt so bad is because he camefrom a family where his dad was
a pastor and he very much wantedto carry the mantle and do
likewise.
And so for him, it wasn't just amatter of finding a job in his
(23:58):
chosen career field.
There was a familial aspect ofwanting to carry on the Dad's
legacy..
Yeah.
And he didn't.
And he couldn't.
And it didn't work.
And so, not only is he behindhis friend professionally, but
he's now not doing the thing hewanted to do to live up to his
dad's example.
(24:20):
there's just a number of thingsthat were at play that helped me
understand at least a little bitbetter from his perspective, but
I'm still mad, and I think Ihave every reason to be mad
because whether that's the caseor not, like, if I'm your
friend, you can tell me thosethings, and he didn't, and so
(24:42):
because you chose to just shutdown instead of telling me what
was really going on at the time,I don't know if I want to invest
a lot of time into that type ofa friendship.
Yeah.
At the end of our friendship, itwas always me setting up the
times and like, I would text himand he would not reply.
(25:04):
I would call and leave him avoicemail.
He'd never call back.
And finally I just stopped andit sucks because it does.
was a friendship that was someaningful in high school and
into college.
(25:26):
And yeah, I mean, the fact thatwe were best men in each other's
wedding says enough there.
I have two brothers.
I was my brother's best man.
I broke.
The chain of expectation, likeit would just be implied that
because I was my brother's bestman, that he would be mine.
(25:46):
But I chose to have this otherperson be the best man.
I really did give up a lot forthat friendship only for it to
implode.
And I think that's partially whyI've experienced.
Difficulty with some friendshipsin adulthood is I've just grown
(26:09):
accustomed to being the one thatdoes all the work and it's not
healthy.
Jim (26:16):
I think it's okay to grieve that loss for sure.
Yeah.
Why did it happen?
And some introspection, but youhave to grieve the loss of that
friendship and move on.
Ben (26:25):
Yeah.
And grief is a really weirdthing because it's never linear.
It's so cyclical.
everybody talks about thesestages of grief, but the crazy
thing is that it's not like astep by step type of stage.
Jim (26:41):
I know for me, I have struggled, honestly, with being
On the receiving end, as much asI shared about the impact of
that ghosting experience, I amnot always great at reaching out
Like you and I see each otherbecause we're doing this
podcast, even when we're notdoing great at reaching out and
(27:01):
hanging out on a regular basis,there's something that's
incentivizing us to Yes, tomaintain our friendship with
some of my other friends, I willeven say, yeah, I'm just not a
great friend.
Like I'm not great at reachingout.
And I think some of that is likethe mental space that I'm in,
and that's, that's not right orfair, but sometimes you do need
(27:25):
somebody who's giving more in aseason of, of need in your life.
That's again, like you said,with you.
I think it's easier becausewe've known each other for such
a long time.
But when it's somebody new thatI'm trying to get to know and
establish patterns of what we doas friends.
And I am on such a stinkingstrict budget right now that
(27:45):
it's like, do you want to, Idon't know, go for a walk?
But When you've been goingthrough a tough time for so
long, you start wondering, like,am I just not a good friend or
is it the life stage thing?
Ben (27:59):
Yeah.
Yeah.
With the stage of life, I findmyself in a weird spot, where I
am coming up on 40, andtypically my age bracket, you
included, They have kids thatare much younger than my kids,
(28:20):
and so I've just had to grow toaccept that they're not going to
be available during the hoursthat I might be available, or
they have commitments on someweekday evenings because of
their kids.
School activities or otherwise,and I'm past the fourth grade
choir concert on Tuesday nighttype of lifestyle It's a very
(28:44):
different place to be and sosomething that I'm having to
remind myself of.
We started our family fairlyearly and our kids are now in
their teens It does make me Thefriendship element a bit more
tricky and I find myself Needingto give more grace to my friends
(29:07):
that do have younger kids I'mjust grateful that they make
time for me at all Because Iremember having kids that were
young it is exhausting I did notstart drinking coffee until I
had a young kid, like that wasmy first exposure to the
(29:28):
dependence on caffeine to get methrough the day because having a
kid was rough.
It's tough.
Oh my gosh, it's tough.
And that's just it.
Like, even if there isn'tanything planned, when you have
young kids, you're just tootired to even go out and do
anything.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So I, I get that, but it alsomakes friendship difficult.
(29:53):
For as much as you give me andhow you find ways to pick up my
slack.
I am sometimes frustrated thatit's such a scheduling nightmare
to find time with Jim sometimes,but I get it because it's just
the stage that you're in.
(30:13):
So stages can make or break afriendship is really what I'm
getting at at the end of theday.
Jim (30:20):
Yeah.
When you're going through hardstuff transitions in your life,
I think of people even likemaybe they're getting their
doctorate or they got in a brandnew career where they're going
through this educational or youhave a brand new kid or, your
parents are dying and you'rehaving to deal with all of that
kind of stuff that comes withthat.
It's tough to maintainfriendships with that.
(30:42):
So sometimes you do need thosefriends who stick around, who
are willing to put in more ofthe effort.
I think, yeah, you need to havepatience and forgiveness and.
Finding your people is just soimportant that I think if you
find somebody that you clickwith and that you have a good
(31:02):
relationship with, you have tobe willing to fight for that
friendship and be honest aboutit.
What's frustrating you and anyshortcomings you might have,
because I think it's worthfighting for those friendships.
And for those of you who haveyoung kids, you got to give
yourself some grace too, becauseit's, you just aren't going to
(31:22):
have friends.
Like if you had friends when youhad young kids, I am so happy
for you.
And I know that it is possible,but for an awful lot of us.
It just wasn't a reality.
And so if that is you and you'rein that stage, it's a normal
thing to not have friends.
So give yourself some slack andit's, it's okay.
(31:44):
When you're seeing some of thoseother people that goes back to
that social media thing.
I think part of our angst is wesee other people and it's like,
okay, first of all, you saw theone time.
That that couple hung out withsomebody because they took a
picture of it and put it onFacebook.
Otherwise, they are in the sameboat as you.
(32:06):
They haven't been hanging outwith anybody.
So, Put that jealousy asidebecause raising young kids is
just about survival.
And also to that person thatdidn't get married or didn't
have kids, it's same thing.
You're surviving that stage.
Eventually you're going to getto that age where.
(32:27):
Your peers, their kids havemoved out of the house once
they're out the door, you havethis whole new, huge group of
friends back from the desert offriendship that is your late
thirties and early forties.
For most people, it's just atough season that you have to
weather.
I see the boomers out therehaving fun.
(32:49):
So I assume Yes, I assume usMillennials are gonna get there,
too.
Ben (32:55):
A couple of episodes ago, I shared a story about my friends
that took me out for axethrowing and, we went to a bar
and I just was talking about howit was a really hard time in
life and they totally ralliedand said, Hey, we're going to
plan a night of fun stuff.
Yeah.
Sounds like you need that.
(33:15):
Well, I thought it wasappropriate to reach out to them
because they also have youngkids and I texted them before we
started recording, losing sightof the fact that they have young
kids that were probably gettingready for bed, but here's what's
cool.
They both got back to me eventhough it's bedtime and wind
(33:35):
down time.
Yeah.
One of them had.
Really good things to say about,even in the midst of raising
young kids, find ways to giveyourself even 10 minutes of
friendship.
I think that's a brilliant idea.
He mentioned how he will go tothe park.
At the same time as one of hisfriends and their kids and
(34:00):
they'll tell the kids go off andplay.
Jim (34:03):
Yeah.
And
Ben (34:04):
he says, yeah, there's some helicopter parents that kind of
shake their head at us as wejust dismiss the kids so we can
talk.
But he said, for me, that's anincredible 10 minutes to just be
with a friend and have an adultconversation.
Yeah.
So there's little things likethat that you can do if you are
in that boat of needingfriendship, but also needing to
(34:29):
be present with your kids.
Yeah.
So, Aaron, thanks for that bitof wisdom, even though it was
shared at bedtime.
That's pretty incredible.
Jim (34:38):
Aaron, that is great advice.
I'm so glad to hear fromsomebody who's got the young,
young kids.
Cause even for me, I've got a, anine year old and a 12 year old.
So they are a little bit moreindependent right now where it's
a little bit easier for me thanit was before, honestly.
So to hear from somebody, justgive yourself 10 minutes of
(34:59):
friends.
That's great advice.
Yeah, it's better than
Ben (35:02):
nothing at all,
Jim (35:03):
than nothing.
Is that your phone going offagain?
Did the other friend respond?
Ben (35:06):
Actually he did.
Both of these guys have youngkids.
It's bedtime and they're textingme back because I wanted their
perspective on friendship.
That's just so cool.
So my other friend, Mike, hesays that friendship has been
uniquely difficult with youngkids, and he, for a time he
(35:27):
lived out of state, just like Idid.
And so when he returned toMichigan, and then they started
having kids.
Friendship became verydifficult.
He said the one thing thathelped him was finding a group
of people with a sharedinterest.
Yeah.
And for him that is cycling.
So for six months out of theyear, he takes one night a week
(35:51):
and he goes out and he rides hisbike with his cycling pals and
he gets to do life with them.
And so it's like this naturalthing that happened out of a
hobby he had.
He took his love for cycling.
Found a group and now during thewarm months, he gets to have one
(36:12):
night a week where he can escapethe reality and craziness of
raising young kids and hang outwith some guys who like to bike.
Jim (36:21):
That's awesome.
Thanks so much for that advice.
That is, that is huge.
I think if you're strugglingforming friendships or mourning
the loss of existing friends andit just hasn't been filled yet.
Yeah.
What do you like?
What hobby do you enjoy infinding other people that.
Have that hobby as well as agreat way to make friends.
Cause I think that's the thing.
(36:42):
When you feel like you're forcedto find time to spend with each
other.
And it's just like, what do youdo get coffee?
Or if you have a hobby that youboth already enjoy, that's a
big.
Built in way to build thatfriendship.
That's, that's great advice.
Definitely.
Thank you, Mike.
Ben (37:01):
So Mike and Aaron are two of my intentional good friends,
and I just think it's great thatthey've been able to be a friend
to me, even though they haveyoung kids and are in a very
unique and challenging time oflife.
Jim (37:17):
That's great.
I got to meet these guys.
It sounded like cool cats.
Ben (37:20):
Absolutely.
I have another friend thatintroduced me to that video game
arc that I've told you allabout, if it wasn't for that
friend, I wouldn't play.
And the cool thing about that isthis game is like multiplayer to
the extreme.
And what I see on my screen iswhat he sees on his.
There's four or five of us whoplay on a regular basis, and we
(37:45):
just talk and, you know, itcould be after work, like, seven
o'clock at night, we're tootired to go out and do anything
else, but we can, you know, sitin front of the screen to play
our game.
It's a great opportunity to justchat.
Jim (38:01):
That is cool.
Ben (38:01):
And then one of them lives in Denmark.
And so we've all committed tomaking Time to play when he can
play.
So we get up at 5 AM onSaturdays and we play our game.
And that way it's not takingaway from family time.
It's before everybody's awake.
And I love it.
(38:22):
I used to think it was crazy.
And I said, why in the worldwould you get up that early to
play a game?
But then I decided to try it.
And it was the coolest thing,just chatting with five guys,
we're playing the same game,we're talking about work, we're
talking about our kids.
It's just so natural.
(38:43):
So maybe you can't get out tojoin a cycling club.
Maybe you can just turn on yourcomputer and play a game with
some friends, whatever the casemay be.
I hope you can find your people.
Jim (38:55):
Find your people, man.
Thanks so much for listeningtoday.
Always.
Such a gift to be able to spendthis time with you and share our
hearts And we hope that you allhave a good friend in your life
That is with you even whenthings are tough.
thanks for listening to real menhug.
(39:16):
You're my friend, Ben.
Ben (39:18):
You're my friend, Jim.
Jim (39:19):
I appreciate you.
Ben (39:21):
I appreciate you as well.
Jim (39:24):
That sounded way too sappy for the end of our episode.
Ben (39:27):
It's okay because we'll add dad humor.
Jim (39:29):
The folks love humor.
It's true.
Dad humor that we have at theend of our episodes.
Ben (39:36):
That's exactly what it is.
Jim (39:37):
You get the manual after you have kids, there's a whole
chapter on dad jokes.
Ben (39:43):
And remember real men hug because their friends don't let
friends bottle up theirfeelings.
Jim (39:48):
Hmm and remember real men eat wings last word.
Stop.
Very good.
As I like to say,
Ben (40:01):
I forgot to hit record.
Welcome to real men hug a podcast for men and the women
who love them.
I'm Ben and
Jim (00:10):
I'm Jim.
Welcome to the show.
Did you forget your line?
Ben (00:19):
I was trying to remember if that was something I said, or
you said,
Jim (00:21):
no, that's fair.
It's a poignant, poignant thingto say.
Welcome to the show.
We're talking about friendstoday.
Ben (00:28):
Jim, you're my friend,
Jim (00:29):
you're my friend.
We wanted to talk about friendstoday.
I mean, that's been a strugglefor both of us since.
I don't know, for me, it'sreally since having kids, I
would say it's probably been astruggle to some extent after
college, but I was kind offortunate that I stuck around
(00:50):
because I worked at the college,so I got to maintain a lot of
those friendships that I haddeveloped with, you know, people
who are a little bit youngerthan me and then the people who
also worked at the school at thesame time.
So I think I got to keep thatcommunity.
I know for a lot of people,those changes in life stages
kind of knock those friendshipsoff.
(01:12):
So.
Ben (01:13):
Yeah, as is the case often in my life, my experience with
friendship in adulthood is, isvastly different from what it is
for most adults, yourselfincluded.
You were just talking about howdifficult it's been in adulthood
for friendship but for me in myexperience.
(01:35):
I had the most trouble withfriendship in my early days.
Like, middle school, probablyeven earlier than that.
But middle school was insanelydifficult.
I did not have more than maybeone or two friends that I could
actually count on as friends.
And then I went from thatenvironment into high school.
(01:58):
And for those four years, I wasvery much a social nomad.
Like I just could not find my,my niche with anybody.
And so I just would hang outwith all kinds of different
people and just kind of figuredout a way to survive.
And so Jim, our friendshipspanning 20 years is the longest
friendship that I've had ever.
Jim (02:19):
Yeah.
Ben (02:20):
I don't talk often, if at all, to anybody from high school
or middle school or elementaryschool, like they just don't
exist.
Jim (02:31):
Yeah.
I'm kind of in the same boat.
I know I did have a differentexperience where.
You may be surprised to hearthat I actually was pretty
introverted and didn't have aton of friends all the way up
until right around high school.
I had essentially one friend allthrough elementary school.
And he is my oldest friend.
(02:53):
We called him 5th brother Mikebecause he's always around.
We called him as He's stillaround.
He, he actually lives a littlebit farther away now, so I don't
get to see him as much.
It's not super easy for us tocatch lunch or coffee or
whatever.
But we still typically see eachother at least once a year.
Yeah.
We'll make it a point to seeeach other, but that's about it.
(03:14):
I don't really hang out with aton of people from.
High school either it really atall
Ben (03:20):
so when I came to college, that was like my first
experience with genuinefriendship, I would say, whereas
my friends leading up to that.
I had some decent, okay, I hadone solid friendship in high
school, but that's kind offizzled out since then.
But other than maybe I, likethree at the most, I didn't have
(03:44):
a ton of friends growing up.
And so now as an adult, knowingwhat I missed out on as a kid, I
make friendship A significantpriority in my life because I
know how badly I need it.
How badly I need thoseconnections with people.
Jim (04:04):
Do you think social media has changed how friendships work
now?
Ben (04:11):
Definitely.
Good old social media.
I.
currently have a, it's not alove hate relationship with
Facebook.
It's a hate relationship withFacebook.
Jim (04:20):
Just plain pure unfettered hatred.
Ben (04:23):
I just don't like it right now.
I'm very frustrated with thewhole premise of Facebook, but
in our.
Conversation on the episodeabout toxic positivity.
We talked about social media andit's just helped me realize how
dependent I was on social mediaand how I was turning to it for
(04:46):
a hit of dopamine or whatever.
But at the end of the day, whatI've realized is Facebook is
basically a hall of fame foryour friends where you can post
your highlight reels and you canone up each other and you can
say things that make you looksmart, but nobody's posting
about the difficult things inlife.
(05:07):
Does it help with friendship?
I don't think it does.
I connected to some people onFacebook from high school and
stuff like that, but they arenot what I would consider a
friend by any means.
It's just watching people'slives unfold.
And if there's drama, it makesit more fun to watch.
Jim (05:26):
I am really bad about posting on Facebook anymore.
And I think it's because Ifinally figured out how to get
Facebook to work for me becauseI was getting really sick of
like the comparison game and itdid feel sort of like the, the
highlight reel.
And we talked about that.
There's a time and a place forit.
Post your coffee, post yourvacation.
(05:46):
Great.
If that's helpful for you, I'mnot knocking social media
through that regard.
But I think for folks like Benand I, sometimes we have to step
away from that.
I found where I love Facebook isyou really can, to some extent
anyways, manicure it into whatyou want it to.
So like, I really love doing theminiature painting.
So I subscribe to a bunch of theminiature painting groups or one
(06:10):
of the board games that I havepainted a bunch of figures from
is hero quest.
So I'm on.
The hero quest page, even thereal men hug interacting with a
podcast support group that we'remembers of, and I've gotten to
know some of the folks fromround table mindset.
A rude dude.
Podcast is another one that Ireally enjoyed listening to
(06:31):
their stuff.
We'll probably do something withthem.
Eyeopener society is anotherpodcast that.
I'd love to have Hannah on toshare her story.
I know I'm going to miss peoplebecause there's a bunch of
people in that group.
That's my point that I've reallyenjoyed getting to know them and
chatting with those people.
And that's been so life givingbecause those people that I
(06:52):
mentioned, they are not theFacebook highlight real kind of
people.
If you listen to round tablemindset or rude dude, or
eyeopener society, they talkabout very real raw stuff, just
like we do.
I would definitely recommendthose podcasts.
That's what I've really enjoyedabout Facebook is getting to
know some of these folks that Iwouldn't have gotten to know
(07:14):
otherwise.
I've actually really enjoyedbeing able to do this show.
With you and make some newfriends.
Ben (07:20):
Definitely.
It's really cool that you'vebeen able to do that.
I'm just not at a point where Ihave a healthy enough
relationship with Facebook totake advantage of it in that
way.
Jim (07:30):
So if you're listening, if real men hug responds to you,
Ben (07:34):
it's Jim.
It's not Ben
Jim (07:36):
every once in a while.
It's Ben, but usually
Ben (07:39):
moving from this point forward until I get over my ish
with Facebook, it's going to beJim.
Jim (07:46):
Yeah, for sure,
Ben (07:48):
and one thing I appreciate about our friendship, Jim, is
the fact that I can pull off ofFacebook and know that.
A, you're going to understandwhy, B, you're going to support
me in it, and most importantlythese days, C, you're going to
pick up the slack that my breakfrom social media naturally puts
(08:10):
on you and you're not even goingto complain about it.
I love that about ourfriendship.
Jim (08:16):
Yeah, we're here to help each other.
I mean, we kind of alluded tothat in our marriage episode But
friendship is really like thattoo.
Like you're picking up eachother's burdens.
You're helping each other out.
You're assuming the best of eachother.
Those are those true richfriendships that you know, you
can treasure when you trust thatperson implicitly to be able to
(08:39):
step in when you can't do it.
I love that.
I've got you as a friend that Ican know and trust to do that.
Little peek and insight into Jimand Ben's show.
We genuinely like each other.
I don't know if you picked thatup or not, but we just, we like
hanging out with each other.
We hang out outside of the show.
(08:59):
and Ben has alluded to it, butlike our friendship is not about
the show.
I'll be honest and say we'refriends because of the show.
Like that's a big part of whatrekindled our friendship, but
it's so much more deep thanthat.
And that's why, like, forinstance, some of that's heavy
stuff that Ben has.
Talked about and alluded to.
(09:20):
We haven't done an episode onjust to get the juicy gossip,
because we care about eachother, we care about each
other's feelings and what's bestfor that person.
So that friendship comes first.
The relationship always comesfirst.
Right.
Ben (09:35):
Absolutely.
When I think about friendship,the defining mark is something
you hit on so well, and that isthe looking out for each other.
What makes a friendship stick?
In every friendship I can thinkof, it's that element of
somebody having your back,thinking the best about you, and
(09:57):
wanting the best for you aswell..
Yeah, It's really hard tomaintain Friendship if those
things aren't in place.
Jim (10:04):
Yeah, let's dive deep Ben I think what's really hard for
some people is they feel likethey are always the one who are
reaching out.
And when somebody else has aproblem, they come and of course
you help because it's in yournature, but when you have a
problem, you have to paysomebody else to help you
(10:26):
through it.
Counseling, right?
You know, no, nobody's therewhen you need something, but if
they need somebody to movesomething, you're there with
your truck, or if, if they havea crisis, you're showing up for
them.
If it weren't for you shoot Iwould be in a similar position
where it's like who do you go toThat actually cares about me and
(10:48):
it's not just using me for whatthey can get out of the friend.
Yeah Oh, yeah, you know what?
I mean?
Ben (10:53):
Absolutely I have had friendships like that where it
was based on what I could do forthe other person.
And, I used to think that it wasselfish for me to look out for
myself and to be frustrated withthat person.
I would Think that I should justgo with it.
Maybe in this season of life,they just need more than they
(11:17):
can give.
But when I stepped back andlooked at some of those
friendships, what I realized wasour entire relationship was
built on what I could give andwhat they could take.
And.
That's a super toxic type offriendship to have.
Jim (11:35):
I've had friends like that for sure, where we always had to
go to their place.
They weren't coming to ourplace.
And it was always what theywanted to do based on their
schedule.
I've had those friendships whereit's, you have to put in all of
that work and there's just nograce.
There's no flexibility.
Here's the, here's the deal.
(11:56):
It's really easy to be friendswhen you live that, I call it
that hashtag blessed life.
Like when you live in deepprivilege and you've got endless
amounts of money and time andyou can, you've got somebody,
Hey, you guys want to Fly out toDisney this year.
That'd be so fun with ourfamilies and not knocking that
(12:18):
if you can do it.
Awesome.
I'm glad that you can, but whatif you lose your job and you
can't afford to go to Disney,you kind of have a tendency to
go without them.
And you find somebody who canlike that broken person who lost
their job, who lost their kid,who lost their spouse.
They, they need something fromyou.
(12:41):
And now you don't show upbecause honestly, you weren't.
Really their friend.
You were using them for that funof experience.
Let me restate it.
There are degrees of friendship.
Sure.
Yes.
You don't know what it's like tobe anything other than a shallow
friend.
There are people that you enjoytheir company.
(13:02):
You will go out and you'll havelunch with them and you'll have
fun and you appreciate that partof their aspect.
But when shit gets real, you'reout.
You don't want to help them.
You don't want to support them.
You don't want to be there forthem when they really need your
help.
So you just stick around peoplethat don't.
If you run away from anybody whohas any level of brokenness, you
(13:24):
might want to have a certainlevel of introspection.
Is it that that person is needyor is it that you're incapable
of meeting somebody in theirneed?
Are you the problem?
Or are they the problem?
Ben (13:38):
One aspect that makes all of what you just talked about so
challenging is the fact that inlife there are different phases
and the people that we choose toassociate ourselves with they're
not necessarily going to be atthe same phase of life that we
are.
Sure.
Take, for example, yourparenting experience.
(14:01):
Though you've been marriedlonger, your kids are quite a
bit younger than my kids.
So in our friendship, you don'thave the experience of having
teenagers, right?
There's just some things thatyou won't be able to relate to,
but that's okay because we haveso much other things that we can
(14:22):
relate to on.
But if the friend is in adifferent stage of life and
they've not had nearly theamount of shared experiences
that you and I have, I candefinitely see how that
friendship Suffer and struggle.
Jim (14:37):
One way I see that happen a lot is when people get married
and when people have kids or notget married and not have kids,
that seems to be one of thebiggest deal breakers for
friendships.
That's a stage of life thingthat, once you have kids, it's
the rare person that can stillmaintain those friendships.
(14:59):
Cause when you, especially thelittles man, especially my
littles.
Don't get me started.
To my oldest son, if he'slistening to this podcast,
hopefully not until he's in hislate twenties or early thirties,
just know with love, you werethe toughest kid.
And.
To my oldest son, if he'slistening to this podcast,
(15:21):
hopefully not until he's in hislate twenties or early thirties,
just know with love, you werethe toughest kid.
It was impossible To havefriends because he was just such
a hard kid to raise and he hadcolic.
So he was puking all the time.
He couldn't sleep.
He had rashes all over his bodythat we constantly had to be
(15:45):
treating with medication andnever slept.
We never slept.
It was just miserable.
So how are you supposed tobalance friendships with all of
that?, it was impossible.
Just the sleep thing alone.
We were, we were so miserable.
We could not maintainfriendships.
I need that like a male figurein my life to be able to bond
(16:07):
with, because I mean, who areyou going to talk to about your
spouse, for instance, just thatin and of itself.
I feel like you need to havesomebody else to just be able to
be able to comfortable withoutfeeling like you're
unintentionally hurtingsomebody's feelings or it's just
some stuff you don't talk toyour spouse about.
Ben (16:25):
So in my case, I did have a pretty solid friend.
I met him in high school.
We stayed friends throughcollege and like fifth brother
Mike, this friendship had thepotential to extend into
adulthood and I tried so hard tomake that happen with this
(16:45):
individual.
But it turned into one of thosesituations where I was doing all
the work.
Yeah.
He would never call me to checkin.
I'd have to call him.
He never reached out to set upplans when he was in town.
I would have to hear through thegrapevine that he was going to
be in town, and then I would setsomething up.
(17:07):
Yeah.
And so it got to a point a fewyears ago where we sat down and
And I just said, it's reallyhard to be your friend, and it's
really hard to know if this issomething you really even want.
And he just acknowledged that hewas jealous of how easily I
(17:31):
found work after college andhow, easily I was able to go to
Cornerstone for four consecutiveyears where he struggled
Honestly, he was, he was,financially savvy than I ever
was at that age.
(17:51):
He chose to take the slow routeand pay for his schooling as he
went.
Because I chose to take onstudent loans, which, I will
never do again.
I finished on time and hedidn't.
And he felt like I outpaced himin life and that he fell behind.
And I never felt that way, buthe was jealous of me for many
(18:16):
years.
And it was that jealousy andthat frustration with how his
life turned out in comparison tomine that really made it hard
for our friendship to survive.
Yeah.
And unfortunately thatfriendship did not survive.
I've, I've cut my losses.
It was one of the hardest thingsthat I had to do friends wise,
(18:39):
because this is somebody who wasthere for me.
I was his best man and he was mybest man, but beyond 2006, The
friendship imploded and it wasjealousy, mainly, but what's
crazy is we talk about theFacebook highlight reel and all
(19:01):
of that.
All he could see of my life wasthe good stuff.
The, the finishing college, thefinding a job right out of
college, which I'll admit ispretty.
Uncommon to graduate and thenthe next day move across the
country to your first full timejob in your field of study.
(19:25):
I get it.
Like that is uncommon and rare.
I can see where he's comingfrom.
But man, outside of those tworeally good things, there was so
much pain that I don't feel likehe even saw or understood
because he could only see thegood things that he was jealous
of and it ended our friendship.
Jim (19:47):
We wanted to take a break in the middle of this
conversation to remind you thatwe have got this new campaign
that you can help support ourshow.
Buy me a coffee.
It's in the show notes.
We've got it up on the episodenotes and the Facebook page, so
be sure to check out.
Buy me a coffee.
We would love any amount ofsupport from our listeners.
(20:08):
It helps us do what we do.
Ben (20:10):
So check it out at buymeacoffee.
com slash real men hug.
And know that it certainly makesa huge difference for Jim and I
both.
Jim (20:23):
That's so tough to hear.
I do wonder, and this is not indefense of that guy, but you
know, in an earlier episode Italked about the wall kind of
around your identity and how youmight have those high points
where if people attack youthere, like you're solid because
that's not, you know, A questionin your identity, but speaking
as somebody who career was thatlike broken point of the wall
(20:47):
where just anybody could walkin, I wonder if for him, that
was that broken part of him,that it wasn't necessarily that
he didn't see the, that Therewas only good things in your
life, but that it was just thesuccess he was seeing.
It was just too hard for him todeal with because that was the
weak point in his wall.
(21:07):
I just wonder, do you think thatthat was where some of that came
from?
Or do you just think he totallylost sight of the fact that your
life wasn't as privileged androsy as he thought it was?
That's a really good question.
I only see it from theperspective of he was jealous.
(21:29):
See, Jim, this is why I likehaving you as a friend, because
you, you hear me and youvalidate what I have to say, but
you also have this way of gentlyand kindly saying, well, what
about this?
And it's something that I've notthought of, and I just really
appreciate that.
(21:50):
It's something that I've had tostruggle with.
We had some friends that ghostedus and we.
Had no clue why it at least feltlike ghosting to us where we're
reaching out.
We're trying to get somethinggoing.
And I had even said like, nomatter what, I am going to make
(22:11):
this, double date happen.
And we did, but it was like thisvery painful process to finally
get it to, to work.
But after that, like I need themto.
Come to us because it took me somuch prodding and a hundred
percent, like, we're going to doyour thing your way so that we
(22:32):
can have this friendship work.
I was just exhausted and I feltat the time that we were the
only ones doing the work andthen it's just like, okay, like,
oh, clearly they need spacebecause to us it felt like they
were almost like pushing usaway.
So it's like, okay, we're goingto give them the space that they
want.
(22:52):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And then just boom, essentiallyfriendship done well, fast
forward well into the future.
And it really was again, likethis space that they were in
that they just didn't have thecapacity to reach out.
And that's not to point fingersin one direction or the other,
(23:14):
but it's just that insight oflike, okay, why, why did this
happen?
Why?
I think you can just be mad andupset, especially when you don't
have that closure and it feelsunfair.
Why did he do that?
We had a good friendship?
Why couldn't he get over it?
I at least like to ask myselfthe question, like what
happened?
Ben (23:34):
Yeah.
And looking at his story, Ithink the reason why my success
hurt so bad is because he camefrom a family where his dad was
a pastor and he very much wantedto carry the mantle and do
likewise.
And so for him, it wasn't just amatter of finding a job in his
(23:58):
chosen career field.
There was a familial aspect ofwanting to carry on the Dad's
legacy..
Yeah.
And he didn't.
And he couldn't.
And it didn't work.
And so, not only is he behindhis friend professionally, but
he's now not doing the thing hewanted to do to live up to his
dad's example.
(24:20):
there's just a number of thingsthat were at play that helped me
understand at least a little bitbetter from his perspective, but
I'm still mad, and I think Ihave every reason to be mad
because whether that's the caseor not, like, if I'm your
friend, you can tell me thosethings, and he didn't, and so
(24:42):
because you chose to just shutdown instead of telling me what
was really going on at the time,I don't know if I want to invest
a lot of time into that type ofa friendship.
Yeah.
At the end of our friendship, itwas always me setting up the
times and like, I would text himand he would not reply.
(25:04):
I would call and leave him avoicemail.
He'd never call back.
And finally I just stopped andit sucks because it does.
was a friendship that was someaningful in high school and
into college.
(25:26):
And yeah, I mean, the fact thatwe were best men in each other's
wedding says enough there.
I have two brothers.
I was my brother's best man.
I broke.
The chain of expectation, likeit would just be implied that
because I was my brother's bestman, that he would be mine.
(25:46):
But I chose to have this otherperson be the best man.
I really did give up a lot forthat friendship only for it to
implode.
And I think that's partially whyI've experienced.
Difficulty with some friendshipsin adulthood is I've just grown
(26:09):
accustomed to being the one thatdoes all the work and it's not
healthy.
Jim (26:16):
I think it's okay to grieve that loss for sure.
Yeah.
Why did it happen?
And some introspection, but youhave to grieve the loss of that
friendship and move on.
Ben (26:25):
Yeah.
And grief is a really weirdthing because it's never linear.
It's so cyclical.
everybody talks about thesestages of grief, but the crazy
thing is that it's not like astep by step type of stage.
Jim (26:41):
I know for me, I have struggled, honestly, with being
On the receiving end, as much asI shared about the impact of
that ghosting experience, I amnot always great at reaching out
Like you and I see each otherbecause we're doing this
podcast, even when we're notdoing great at reaching out and
(27:01):
hanging out on a regular basis,there's something that's
incentivizing us to Yes, tomaintain our friendship with
some of my other friends, I willeven say, yeah, I'm just not a
great friend.
Like I'm not great at reachingout.
And I think some of that is likethe mental space that I'm in,
and that's, that's not right orfair, but sometimes you do need
(27:25):
somebody who's giving more in aseason of, of need in your life.
That's again, like you said,with you.
I think it's easier becausewe've known each other for such
a long time.
But when it's somebody new thatI'm trying to get to know and
establish patterns of what we doas friends.
And I am on such a stinkingstrict budget right now that
(27:45):
it's like, do you want to, Idon't know, go for a walk?
But When you've been goingthrough a tough time for so
long, you start wondering, like,am I just not a good friend or
is it the life stage thing?
Ben (27:59):
Yeah.
Yeah.
With the stage of life, I findmyself in a weird spot, where I
am coming up on 40, andtypically my age bracket, you
included, They have kids thatare much younger than my kids,
(28:20):
and so I've just had to grow toaccept that they're not going to
be available during the hoursthat I might be available, or
they have commitments on someweekday evenings because of
their kids.
School activities or otherwise,and I'm past the fourth grade
choir concert on Tuesday nighttype of lifestyle It's a very
(28:44):
different place to be and sosomething that I'm having to
remind myself of.
We started our family fairlyearly and our kids are now in
their teens It does make me Thefriendship element a bit more
tricky and I find myself Needingto give more grace to my friends
(29:07):
that do have younger kids I'mjust grateful that they make
time for me at all Because Iremember having kids that were
young it is exhausting I did notstart drinking coffee until I
had a young kid, like that wasmy first exposure to the
(29:28):
dependence on caffeine to get methrough the day because having a
kid was rough.
It's tough.
Oh my gosh, it's tough.
And that's just it.
Like, even if there isn'tanything planned, when you have
young kids, you're just tootired to even go out and do
anything.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So I, I get that, but it alsomakes friendship difficult.
(29:53):
For as much as you give me andhow you find ways to pick up my
slack.
I am sometimes frustrated thatit's such a scheduling nightmare
to find time with Jim sometimes,but I get it because it's just
the stage that you're in.
(30:13):
So stages can make or break afriendship is really what I'm
getting at at the end of theday.
Jim (30:20):
Yeah.
When you're going through hardstuff transitions in your life,
I think of people even likemaybe they're getting their
doctorate or they got in a brandnew career where they're going
through this educational or youhave a brand new kid or, your
parents are dying and you'rehaving to deal with all of that
kind of stuff that comes withthat.
It's tough to maintainfriendships with that.
(30:42):
So sometimes you do need thosefriends who stick around, who
are willing to put in more ofthe effort.
I think, yeah, you need to havepatience and forgiveness and.
Finding your people is just soimportant that I think if you
find somebody that you clickwith and that you have a good
(31:02):
relationship with, you have tobe willing to fight for that
friendship and be honest aboutit.
What's frustrating you and anyshortcomings you might have,
because I think it's worthfighting for those friendships.
And for those of you who haveyoung kids, you got to give
yourself some grace too, becauseit's, you just aren't going to
(31:22):
have friends.
Like if you had friends when youhad young kids, I am so happy
for you.
And I know that it is possible,but for an awful lot of us.
It just wasn't a reality.
And so if that is you and you'rein that stage, it's a normal
thing to not have friends.
So give yourself some slack andit's, it's okay.
(31:44):
When you're seeing some of thoseother people that goes back to
that social media thing.
I think part of our angst is wesee other people and it's like,
okay, first of all, you saw theone time.
That that couple hung out withsomebody because they took a
picture of it and put it onFacebook.
Otherwise, they are in the sameboat as you.
(32:06):
They haven't been hanging outwith anybody.
So, Put that jealousy asidebecause raising young kids is
just about survival.
And also to that person thatdidn't get married or didn't
have kids, it's same thing.
You're surviving that stage.
Eventually you're going to getto that age where.
(32:27):
Your peers, their kids havemoved out of the house once
they're out the door, you havethis whole new, huge group of
friends back from the desert offriendship that is your late
thirties and early forties.
For most people, it's just atough season that you have to
weather.
I see the boomers out therehaving fun.
(32:49):
So I assume Yes, I assume usMillennials are gonna get there,
too.
Ben (32:55):
A couple of episodes ago, I shared a story about my friends
that took me out for axethrowing and, we went to a bar
and I just was talking about howit was a really hard time in
life and they totally ralliedand said, Hey, we're going to
plan a night of fun stuff.
Yeah.
Sounds like you need that.
(33:15):
Well, I thought it wasappropriate to reach out to them
because they also have youngkids and I texted them before we
started recording, losing sightof the fact that they have young
kids that were probably gettingready for bed, but here's what's
cool.
They both got back to me eventhough it's bedtime and wind
(33:35):
down time.
Yeah.
One of them had.
Really good things to say about,even in the midst of raising
young kids, find ways to giveyourself even 10 minutes of
friendship.
I think that's a brilliant idea.
He mentioned how he will go tothe park.
At the same time as one of hisfriends and their kids and
(34:00):
they'll tell the kids go off andplay.
Jim (34:03):
Yeah.
And
Ben (34:04):
he says, yeah, there's some helicopter parents that kind of
shake their head at us as wejust dismiss the kids so we can
talk.
But he said, for me, that's anincredible 10 minutes to just be
with a friend and have an adultconversation.
Yeah.
So there's little things likethat that you can do if you are
in that boat of needingfriendship, but also needing to
(34:29):
be present with your kids.
Yeah.
So, Aaron, thanks for that bitof wisdom, even though it was
shared at bedtime.
That's pretty incredible.
Jim (34:38):
Aaron, that is great advice.
I'm so glad to hear fromsomebody who's got the young,
young kids.
Cause even for me, I've got a, anine year old and a 12 year old.
So they are a little bit moreindependent right now where it's
a little bit easier for me thanit was before, honestly.
So to hear from somebody, justgive yourself 10 minutes of
(34:59):
friends.
That's great advice.
Yeah, it's better than
Ben (35:02):
nothing at all,
Jim (35:03):
than nothing.
Is that your phone going offagain?
Did the other friend respond?
Ben (35:06):
Actually he did.
Both of these guys have youngkids.
It's bedtime and they're textingme back because I wanted their
perspective on friendship.
That's just so cool.
So my other friend, Mike, hesays that friendship has been
uniquely difficult with youngkids, and he, for a time he
(35:27):
lived out of state, just like Idid.
And so when he returned toMichigan, and then they started
having kids.
Friendship became verydifficult.
He said the one thing thathelped him was finding a group
of people with a sharedinterest.
Yeah.
And for him that is cycling.
So for six months out of theyear, he takes one night a week
(35:51):
and he goes out and he rides hisbike with his cycling pals and
he gets to do life with them.
And so it's like this naturalthing that happened out of a
hobby he had.
He took his love for cycling.
Found a group and now during thewarm months, he gets to have one
(36:12):
night a week where he can escapethe reality and craziness of
raising young kids and hang outwith some guys who like to bike.
Jim (36:21):
That's awesome.
Thanks so much for that advice.
That is, that is huge.
I think if you're strugglingforming friendships or mourning
the loss of existing friends andit just hasn't been filled yet.
Yeah.
What do you like?
What hobby do you enjoy infinding other people that.
Have that hobby as well as agreat way to make friends.
Cause I think that's the thing.
(36:42):
When you feel like you're forcedto find time to spend with each
other.
And it's just like, what do youdo get coffee?
Or if you have a hobby that youboth already enjoy, that's a
big.
Built in way to build thatfriendship.
That's, that's great advice.
Definitely.
Thank you, Mike.
Ben (37:01):
So Mike and Aaron are two of my intentional good friends,
and I just think it's great thatthey've been able to be a friend
to me, even though they haveyoung kids and are in a very
unique and challenging time oflife.
Jim (37:17):
That's great.
I got to meet these guys.
It sounded like cool cats.
Ben (37:20):
Absolutely.
I have another friend thatintroduced me to that video game
arc that I've told you allabout, if it wasn't for that
friend, I wouldn't play.
And the cool thing about that isthis game is like multiplayer to
the extreme.
And what I see on my screen iswhat he sees on his.
There's four or five of us whoplay on a regular basis, and we
(37:45):
just talk and, you know, itcould be after work, like, seven
o'clock at night, we're tootired to go out and do anything
else, but we can, you know, sitin front of the screen to play
our game.
It's a great opportunity to justchat.
Jim (38:01):
That is cool.
Ben (38:01):
And then one of them lives in Denmark.
And so we've all committed tomaking Time to play when he can
play.
So we get up at 5 AM onSaturdays and we play our game.
And that way it's not takingaway from family time.
It's before everybody's awake.
And I love it.
(38:22):
I used to think it was crazy.
And I said, why in the worldwould you get up that early to
play a game?
But then I decided to try it.
And it was the coolest thing,just chatting with five guys,
we're playing the same game,we're talking about work, we're
talking about our kids.
It's just so natural.
(38:43):
So maybe you can't get out tojoin a cycling club.
Maybe you can just turn on yourcomputer and play a game with
some friends, whatever the casemay be.
I hope you can find your people.
Jim (38:55):
Find your people, man.
Thanks so much for listeningtoday.
Always.
Such a gift to be able to spendthis time with you and share our
hearts And we hope that you allhave a good friend in your life
That is with you even whenthings are tough.
thanks for listening to real menhug.
(39:16):
You're my friend, Ben.
Ben (39:18):
You're my friend, Jim.
Jim (39:19):
I appreciate you.
Ben (39:21):
I appreciate you as well.
Jim (39:24):
That sounded way too sappy for the end of our episode.
Ben (39:27):
It's okay because we'll add dad humor.
Jim (39:29):
The folks love humor.
It's true.
Dad humor that we have at theend of our episodes.
Ben (39:36):
That's exactly what it is.
Jim (39:37):
You get the manual after you have kids, there's a whole
chapter on dad jokes.
Ben (39:43):
And remember real men hug because their friends don't let
friends bottle up theirfeelings.
Jim (39:48):
Hmm and remember real men eat wings last word.
Stop.
Very good.
As I like to say,
Ben (40:01):
I forgot to hit record.
Popular Podcasts
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.
Ridiculous History
History is beautiful, brutal and, often, ridiculous. Join Ben Bowlin and Noel Brown as they dive into some of the weirdest stories from across the span of human civilization in Ridiculous History, a podcast by iHeartRadio.